From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Oct 15 09:27:16 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id JAA27875; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 09:27:16 +1300 Received: from date.palm.cri.nz (date.palm.cri.nz [161.66.1.20]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id JAA27864 ; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 09:27:15 +1300 Received: from mail1.marc.cri.nz (mail1.marc.cri.nz [161.29.1.1]) by date.palm.cri.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA28716 ; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 09:21:16 +1300 (NZDT) Received: from hra1.marc.cri.nz (unverified [161.29.1.5]) by mail1.marc.cri.nz (Dr Solomon's SMTPRS 2.0.15) with ESMTP id ; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 09:18:56 +1300 Message-Id: Received: from HRA1/SpoolDir by hra1.marc.cri.nz (Mercury 1.31); 15 Oct 98 09:21:42 GMT+12 Received: from SpoolDir by HRA1 (Mercury 1.31); 15 Oct 98 09:21:21 GMT+12 Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 09:21:14 GMT+1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GMs are Players, too... X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01b) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT From: "Bart Janssen" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. > Tough, really, Jacqui...I don't care if it's hard, that's your burden, not > mine. I have said continuously that only people who don't have characters > in a college should be revising or rewriting them, and I stand by it. I disagree. Only people who play a college have the necessary experience to be able to decide what is and is not in the interest of the player of that college. Even GMs who used the college for NPCs only get a narrow view of what the college is really like for a player. Insisting that all people involved in a college rewrite declare any conflict of interest and remove themselves from the discussion denies their intimate experience with the college and assumes that they cannot distinguish between what is good for the game and what is good for their character. Furthermore it belittles them as people by denying their ability to be objective. Of course there will be some screw ups mostly unintentional. But I personally think that all the GMs try very hard to be objective and when they fail there are always those like you quick to point out their failure. And most times they then admit that failure and correct it. > I didn't say you were alone. You are certainly the most obvious offender, > and I put it to you that the reason is because you do it the most. Oh no I am dethroned. Cheers Bart (who only works on combat to improve his character) Saying Windows 95 is equal to Macintosh is like finding a potato that looks like Jesus and believing you've witnessed the second coming. -- Guy Kawasaki Bart Janssen Hort+Research Private Bag 92169 Auckland New Zealand ph 64 9 8154200 x 7279 fax 64 9 8154201 -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Oct 15 09:41:41 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id JAA27914; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 09:41:41 +1300 Received: from date.palm.cri.nz (date.palm.cri.nz [161.66.1.20]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id JAA27904 ; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 09:41:40 +1300 Received: from mail1.marc.cri.nz (mail1.marc.cri.nz [161.29.1.1]) by date.palm.cri.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA29962 ; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 09:35:41 +1300 (NZDT) Received: from hra1.marc.cri.nz (unverified [161.29.1.5]) by mail1.marc.cri.nz (Dr Solomon's SMTPRS 2.0.15) with ESMTP id ; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 09:33:25 +1300 Message-Id: Received: from HRA1/SpoolDir by hra1.marc.cri.nz (Mercury 1.31); 15 Oct 98 09:36:11 GMT+12 Received: from SpoolDir by HRA1 (Mercury 1.31); 15 Oct 98 09:35:49 GMT+12 Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 09:35:46 GMT+1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: One high rank spell (was Re: Casting for Ranking) X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01b) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT From: "Bart Janssen" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Rosemary wrote > I agree with the problem. It doesn't happen very often but when it does > one 'high level' damage spell can destroy the balance of a low level party. This is another problem (or not maybe). I've seen several characters with one highly ranked spell and virtually no ranks in the others (I've done the same with one of my own characters). It seem that this gives a character quite a bit of power relatively cheaply, especially when it is a big damage spell. I know with my own characters it almost feels like cheating and it does seem to unbalance some characters. In character it makes perfect sense ("I want to be really good with this spell befoire I try learning anything else"). I guess the question is "Is this really a problem?" I tend to think there is something slightly wrong with have a "low level character" with rank 15 dragon flames (or whatever). What do people think, is there a problem here? If so how do we address it. Should there be a limit to how many ranks you can gain in a given spell between adventures eg 6 ranks at a time for generals maybe 4 ranks at a time for specials in a manner similar to the limit on talents. In character it would make sense is it worth it? cheers Bart SCSI is *NOT* magic. There are *fundamental technical reasons* why it is necessary to sacrifice a young goat to your SCSI chain now and then. -- John Woods Bart Janssen Hort+Research Private Bag 92169 Auckland New Zealand ph 64 9 8154200 x 7279 fax 64 9 8154201 -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Oct 15 09:54:44 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id JAA27953; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 09:54:44 +1300 Received: from aj.co.nz (ns.aj.co.nz [202.27.194.165]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id JAA27943 ; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 09:54:34 +1300 Received: by aj.co.nz(Lotus SMTP MTA SMTP v4.6 (462.2 9-3-1997)) id CC25669D.00725CE9 ; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 09:49:08 +1300 X-Lotus-FromDomain: ARMSTRONG JONES Message-ID: Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 09:49:03 +1300 Subject: Re: One high rank spell (was Re: Casting for Ranking) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; Boundary="0__=bmd32oTYSLHu9FQJZkVliDQ8Wi7rRZp0okGfRWVbk2cKgAKpJFy0xr08"; X-Lotus-Encap=encap3 From: rmansfield@aj.co.nz To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. --0__=bmd32oTYSLHu9FQJZkVliDQ8Wi7rRZp0okGfRWVbk2cKgAKpJFy0xr08 Content-type: text/plain Bart wrote >I tend to think there is something slightly wrong with have a "low level >character" with rank 15 dragon flames (or whatever). >What do people think, is there a problem here? >If so how do we address it. Should there be a limit to how many ranks >you can gain in a given spell between adventures eg 6 ranks at a time >for generals maybe 4 ranks at a time for specials in a manner similar to >the limit on talents. In character it would make sense is it worth it? I think it is a problem, but a minor one. If we remove the requirement to cast spells prior to ranking I'd like to see a limit on the number of ranks a spell can be raised between adventures. Something simple like Bart's suggestion. 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qqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqq qqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqq qqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqq qqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqq qqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqq qqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqq --0__=bmd32oTYSLHu9FQJZkVliDQ8Wi7rRZp0okGfRWVbk2cKgAKpJFy0xr08-- -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Oct 15 10:25:21 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id KAA28013; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 10:25:21 +1300 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (root@tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id KAA28002 ; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 10:25:20 +1300 Received: from phaeton.ihug.co.nz (p15-max16.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.100.207]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA18471 ; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 10:19:15 +1300 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19981015101541.007a4c50@pop.ihug.co.nz> X-Sender: phaeton@pop.ihug.co.nz X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 10:15:41 +1300 Subject: Re: One high rank spell (was Re: Casting for Ranking) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: Keith Smith To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >This is another problem (or not maybe). I've seen several characters >with one highly ranked spell and virtually no ranks in the others (I've >done the same with one of my own characters). It seem that this gives >a character quite a bit of power relatively cheaply, especially when it is >a big damage spell. I know with my own characters it almost feels like >cheating and it does seem to unbalance some characters. In character >it makes perfect sense ("I want to be really good with this spell befoire I >try learning anything else"). > >I guess the question is "Is this really a problem?" I'm not sure that it is, although it may depend on the spell. It may have something to do with the original character concept i.e. a Watermage with Waterbreathing highly ranked and the other spells at average rank because that's the sort of mage she is and wants to be. >I tend to think there is something slightly wrong with have a "low level >character" with rank 15 dragon flames (or whatever). > >What do people think, is there a problem here? I can't see any problems with specialising although it would limit what that character could do in certain situations and could be a liability in others. However, that's the players choice. Why should we try and rule on how a player wants their character to be? Let them learn from experience. Keith (phaeton@ihug.co.nz) -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Oct 15 10:29:36 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id KAA28045; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 10:29:36 +1300 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (root@tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id KAA28036 ; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 10:29:35 +1300 Received: from phaeton.ihug.co.nz (p15-max16.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.100.207]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA19024 ; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 10:23:31 +1300 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19981015101957.007ab880@pop.ihug.co.nz> X-Sender: phaeton@pop.ihug.co.nz X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 10:19:57 +1300 Subject: Re: Casting for Ranking Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: Keith Smith To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >>Current Rule (roughly): You must cast a spell 5 times before going to >>the next rank (fails & backfires count). >> >>Reasons to get rid of it: >>Administrative hassle that requires GM time to resolve backfires. >>Backfires in a safe environment don't add any tension or flavour, just >>an additional cost. >> >>Reasons to keep it....?? anybody...? > >1) If you actually use a spell 5 times on the adventure, you can rank it 1 >rank without any risk of further backfire. Makes sense to me - especially for the utility spells that gets cast on every party member. Strength of Stones and Armours of Earth come rapidly to mind. >If the cast 5 times rule is kept, then it would be better that all casts >count, so that casting a spell 15 times on an adventure, would allow 3 >ranks without any further rolls. Unless it is taken that you need to practise casting at that higher rank in order to master it enough for the next rank. Otherwise - fair enough. >2) It is more "realistic" to have to cast spells to be able to rank them. >How can you practise an ability, without actually using it ? Exactly. Practise makes perfect. I don't know about anyone else but it makes more sense to me to only rank the spells that were used in the previous session. Keith (phaeton@ihug.co.nz) -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Oct 15 10:49:21 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id KAA28160; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 10:49:21 +1300 Received: from proxy.telebusiness.co.nz (usr209@proxy.telebusiness.co.nz [203.97.136.12]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id KAA28151 ; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 10:49:16 +1300 Received: by proxy.telebusiness.co.nz with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) id <4AWB2ZKV>; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 10:42:47 +1300 Message-ID: <01FAE6CB4A43D0118AB00020AF0F925752A5B7@proxy.telebusiness.co.nz> Subject: RE: One high rank spell (was Re: Casting for Ranking) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 10:42:46 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) Content-Type: text/plain From: Terry Spencer To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. > I can't see any problems with specialising although it would limit what > that character could do in certain situations and could be a liability in > others. However, that's the players choice. Why should we try and rule on > how a player wants their character to be? Let them learn from experience. > Except it impact on the enjoyability of the other players when they join an adventure on the strength of the single spell. I'm often frustrated as a player by having to carry other players who are one shot wonders. Their contribution is very limited and contingent upon the use of a single spell and in the cases where they can't use their spell the other members of the party need to expend time and effort to keep them functioning. I've also found when you suggest people take a half share at the start of an adventure they tend to get very upset. Terry -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Oct 15 11:04:19 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id LAA28224; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 11:04:19 +1300 Received: from bo.nznet.gen.nz (nznet.gen.nz [203.98.34.1]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id LAA28213 ; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 11:04:18 +1300 Received: from takitimu.co.nz (max2-ak52.nznet.gen.nz [203.98.35.117]) by bo.nznet.gen.nz (8.8.7/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA24985 ; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 11:06:35 +1300 Received: from takitimu.co.nz by takitimu.co.nz; Thu, 15 Oct 98 10:56:24 +1300 Message-ID: <36251FD1.EE6D37AB@takitimu.co.nz> Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 11:04:11 +1300 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Casting for Ranking Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Kelsie To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: kelsie@takitimu.co.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. > >>Current Rule (roughly): You must cast a spell 5 times before going to > >>the next rank (fails & backfires count). > >> > >>Reasons to get rid of it: > >>Administrative hassle that requires GM time to resolve backfires. > >>Backfires in a safe environment don't add any tension or flavour, just > >>an additional cost. > >> > >>Reasons to keep it....?? anybody...? > > > >1) If you actually use a spell 5 times on the adventure, you can rank it 1 > >rank without any risk of further backfire. > > Makes sense to me - especially for the utility spells that gets cast on > every party member. Strength of Stones and Armours of Earth come rapidly to > mind. > > >If the cast 5 times rule is kept, then it would be better that all casts > >count, so that casting a spell 15 times on an adventure, would allow 3 > >ranks without any further rolls. > > Unless it is taken that you need to practise casting at that higher rank in > order to master it enough for the next rank. Otherwise - fair enough. > > >2) It is more "realistic" to have to cast spells to be able to rank them. > >How can you practise an ability, without actually using it ? > > Exactly. Practise makes perfect. Don't forget the important question. Are these good enough reasons to keep it considering the administrative hassle and boredom? The point is not to duplicate 'reality' or what might be 'reasonable' but to make a good game. > > I don't know about anyone else but it makes more sense to me to only rank > the spells that were used in the previous session. Having played Runequest where this is the rule for all skills, stats etc. I can tell you that it doesn't add flavour or tension. You have the pressure (and it's what happens) to bring out everything in your bag of tricks once to make sure you have it 'ticked off'. I say dump the cast checks while at the guild. Charge for the priviledge if you like though that cost is quite trivial and once again doesnt add flavour. Keep the cast checks in outside situations. Kelsie -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Oct 15 11:13:41 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id LAA28265; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 11:13:41 +1300 Received: from bo.nznet.gen.nz (nznet.gen.nz [203.98.34.1]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id LAA28255 ; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 11:13:40 +1300 Received: from takitimu.co.nz (max2-ak28.nznet.gen.nz [203.98.35.93]) by bo.nznet.gen.nz (8.8.7/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA25574 ; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 11:15:57 +1300 Received: from takitimu.co.nz by takitimu.co.nz; Thu, 15 Oct 98 11:05:46 +1300 Message-ID: <36252203.6F864861@takitimu.co.nz> Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 11:13:34 +1300 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: One high rank spell Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Kelsie To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: kelsie@takitimu.co.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. > This is another problem (or not maybe). I've seen several characters > with one highly ranked spell and virtually no ranks in the others (I've > done the same with one of my own characters). It seem that this gives > a character quite a bit of power relatively cheaply, especially when it is > a big damage spell. I know with my own characters it almost feels like > cheating and it does seem to unbalance some characters. In character > it makes perfect sense ("I want to be really good with this spell befoire I > try learning anything else"). > > I guess the question is "Is this really a problem?" > > I tend to think there is something slightly wrong with have a "low level > character" with rank 15 dragon flames (or whatever). No, it's good. Specialisation leads to variety. Otherwise you have the situation where all mages of a college have the same spells to the same ranks. Unbalanced is interesting. Don't we all do it with stats. How many characters have all 15s. As Keith said ditto > I can't see any problems with specialising although it would limit what > that character could do in certain situations and could be a liability in > others. However, that's the players choice. Why should we try and rule on > how a player wants their character to be? Let them learn from experience. > Kelsie -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Oct 15 11:26:46 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id LAA28303; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 11:26:46 +1300 Received: from fep2-orange.clear.net.nz (fep2-orange.clear.net.nz [203.97.32.2]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id LAA28293 ; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 11:26:45 +1300 Received: from qed_akl_nt_1.qed.co.nz ([203.97.23.141]) by fep2-orange.clear.net.nz (1.5/1.9) with ESMTP id LAA26602; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 11:20:15 +1300 (NZDT) Received: by qed_akl_nt_1.qed.co.nz with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) id ; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 11:20:57 +1300 Message-ID: <15A7D8BC5E3ED2119E2E0000F82150FC010982@qed_akl_nt_1.qed.co.nz> Subject: RE: One high rank spell (was Re: Casting for Ranking) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 11:20:56 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain From: Stephen Martin To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. The one shot wonders disrupt the balance of parties. Generally it only applies to combat related spells. Having Rk 15 Water Breathing, Shadow Wings, or Converse with Animals doesn't stop you from being a low character and fitting in with low parties. The problem is from high rank attack spells attached to otherwise low level characters. You get the same problem with low characters carrying around high rank investeds. Their offensive abilities are too tough for a low level adventure, but they're not tough enough to survive Mediums. Sometimes this can be self regulating, GMs refuse to take them on low adventures, and they die lots on medium adventures. The problem is (as Terry pointed out) they aren't the only ones to suffer. If they adventure with lows, the offensive capabilities of the other characters become irrelevant, and they (quite reasonably) get annoyed/bored/frustrated. If they adventure with mediums or highs they need to be carried/protected by the other characters, otherwise the party needs to spend time and energy getting them resurrected. Anyway, most of this is blatantly obvious to anyone who has played for a while, I think that any rule we tried to put in to prevent this would cause more problems than it would solve. We should resolve this as GMs, if you see a set of ranking that is leading a character towards being a one shot wonder, steer them aside (explaining why). And consider giving existing OSWs the option of re-ranking their spells. Cheers, Stephen. > -----Original Message----- > From: Terry Spencer [SMTP:terry@telebusiness.co.nz] > Sent: Thursday, October 15, 1998 10:43 AM > > > I can't see any problems with specialising although it would limit > what > > that character could do in certain situations and could be a > liability in > > others. However, that's the players choice. Why should we try and > rule on > > how a player wants their character to be? Let them learn from > experience. > > > Except it impact on the enjoyability of the other players when > they > join an adventure on the strength of the single spell. I'm often > frustrated > as a player by having to carry other players who are one shot wonders. > Their > contribution is very limited and contingent upon the use of a single > spell > and in the cases where they can't use their spell the other members of > the > party need to expend time and effort to keep them functioning. > > I've also found when you suggest people take a half share at the > start of an adventure they tend to get very upset. > > Terry > -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Oct 15 11:48:04 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id LAA28363; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 11:48:04 +1300 Received: from fep2-orange.clear.net.nz (fep2-orange.clear.net.nz [203.97.32.2]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id LAA28354 ; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 11:48:03 +1300 Received: from qed_akl_nt_1.qed.co.nz ([203.97.23.141]) by fep2-orange.clear.net.nz (1.5/1.9) with ESMTP id LAA03544; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 11:41:33 +1300 (NZDT) Received: by qed_akl_nt_1.qed.co.nz with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) id ; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 11:42:14 +1300 Message-ID: <15A7D8BC5E3ED2119E2E0000F82150FC010983@qed_akl_nt_1.qed.co.nz> Subject: RE: Casting for Ranking Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 11:42:13 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain From: Stephen Martin To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Presumably that's part of what you do during those half days of training time. > -----Original Message----- > From: Brent & Sally [SMTP:salient@kccs.co.nz] > Sent: Thursday, October 15, 1998 10:40 AM > > 2) It is more "realistic" to have to cast spells to be able to rank > them. > How can you practise an ability, without actually using it ? > -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Oct 15 12:00:29 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id MAA28426; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 12:00:29 +1300 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (root@tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id MAA28416 ; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 12:00:28 +1300 Received: from phaeton.ihug.co.nz (p18-max42.akl.ihug.co.nz [209.79.137.82]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA32727 ; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 11:54:28 +1300 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19981015115055.007a5ab0@pop.ihug.co.nz> X-Sender: phaeton@pop.ihug.co.nz X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 11:50:55 +1300 Subject: RE: One high rank spell (was Re: Casting for Ranking) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: Keith Smith To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >Anyway, most of this is blatantly obvious to anyone who has played for a >while, I think that any rule we tried to put in to prevent this would >cause more problems than it would solve. >We should resolve this as GMs, if you see a set of ranking that is >leading a character towards being a one shot wonder, steer them aside >(explaining why). And consider giving existing OSWs the option of >re-ranking their spells. Now that makes a great deal of sense. Isn't it part of our jobs as GMs to help players develop better characters? Keith (phaeton@ihug.co.nz) -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Oct 15 11:57:38 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id LAA28398; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 11:57:38 +1300 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (root@tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id LAA28388 ; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 11:57:37 +1300 Received: from phaeton.ihug.co.nz (p18-max42.akl.ihug.co.nz [209.79.137.82]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA32456 ; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 11:51:37 +1300 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19981015114803.007ad7d0@pop.ihug.co.nz> X-Sender: phaeton@pop.ihug.co.nz X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 11:48:03 +1300 Subject: Re: Casting for Ranking Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: Keith Smith To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >> Exactly. Practise makes perfect. > >Don't forget the important question. Are these good enough reasons to keep it >considering the administrative hassle and boredom? The point is not to >duplicate 'reality' or what might be 'reasonable' but to make a good game. Good point. >> I don't know about anyone else but it makes more sense to me to only rank >> the spells that were used in the previous session. > >Having played Runequest where this is the rule for all skills, stats etc. I >can tell you that it doesn't add flavour or tension. You have the pressure >(and it's what happens) to bring out everything in your bag of tricks once to >make sure you have it 'ticked off'. > >I say dump the cast checks while at the guild. Charge for the priviledge if >you like though that cost is quite trivial and once again doesnt add flavour. >Keep the cast checks in outside situations. Yes, that makes sense. Most guild casting is done at 'maximised' conditions anyway so that it's relatively more safe than it is in the field. Also since the Guild needs money, adding a charge could help the coffers although some people would argue that it is covered by the annual membership fee. However, how many people actually account for that in their silver penny accounts? Keith (phaeton@ihug.co.nz) > >Kelsie > >-- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- > > -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Oct 15 12:08:39 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id MAA28465; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 12:08:39 +1300 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (root@tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id MAA28454 ; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 12:08:38 +1300 Received: from phaeton.ihug.co.nz (p18-max42.akl.ihug.co.nz [209.79.137.82]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA00935 ; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 12:02:37 +1300 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19981015115904.007ae4d0@pop.ihug.co.nz> X-Sender: phaeton@pop.ihug.co.nz X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 11:59:04 +1300 Subject: Re: GMs are Players, too... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: Keith Smith To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >I disagree. Only people who play a college have the necessary >experience to be able to decide what is and is not in the interest of the >player of that college. Even GMs who used the college for NPCs only >get a narrow view of what the college is really like for a player. Insisting >that all people involved in a college rewrite declare any conflict of >interest and remove themselves from the discussion denies their >intimate experience with the college and assumes that they cannot >distinguish between what is good for the game and what is good for their >character. Furthermore it belittles them as people by denying their >ability to be objective. Sounds like we need a compromise here. I can see both points of view here and both are equally valid. It can be too easy to have a 'vested interest' in something but having an 'intimate knowledge' gained from playing the college helps to identify potential problems. Maybe there should be more than one person involved with reviewing Colleges. At least one member should be one who plays the college and knows all the tricks and at least one other member is one who is reasonably familiar with the college but doesn't play it. Keith (phaeton@ihug.co.nz) -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Oct 15 12:22:10 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id MAA28506; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 12:22:10 +1300 Received: from bo.nznet.gen.nz (nznet.gen.nz [203.98.34.1]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id MAA28497 ; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 12:22:10 +1300 Received: from takitimu.co.nz (max2-ak07.nznet.gen.nz [203.98.35.72]) by bo.nznet.gen.nz (8.8.7/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA28934 ; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 12:24:27 +1300 Received: from takitimu.co.nz by takitimu.co.nz; Thu, 15 Oct 98 12:14:17 +1300 Message-ID: <36253211.D7FE64DA@takitimu.co.nz> Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 12:22:12 +1300 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: One high rank spell (was Re: Casting for Ranking) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Kelsie To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: kelsie@takitimu.co.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. > Except it impact on the enjoyability of the other players when they > join an adventure on the strength of the single spell. I'm often frustrated > as a player by having to carry other players who are one shot wonders. Their > contribution is very limited and contingent upon the use of a single spell > and in the cases where they can't use their spell the other members of the > party need to expend time and effort to keep them functioning. > > I've also found when you suggest people take a half share at the > start of an adventure they tend to get very upset. I'm afraid you can't legislate against uselessness. Kelsie -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Oct 15 12:39:24 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id MAA28552; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 12:39:24 +1300 Received: from witch.xtra.co.nz (witch.xtra.co.nz [202.27.184.8]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id MAA28543 ; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 12:39:18 +1300 Received: from AKLNOTES.wilsonandhorton.co.nz ([203.99.71.10]) by witch.xtra.co.nz (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id MAA00578 ; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 12:32:31 +1300 (NZDT) Received: by AKLNOTES.wilsonandhorton.co.nz(Lotus SMTP MTA v1.2 (600.1 3-26-1998)) id CC25669D.00819BB9 ; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 12:35:40 +1300 X-Lotus-FromDomain: NZHERALD Message-ID: Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 12:35:37 +1300 Subject: RE: One high rank spell (was Re: Casting for Ranking) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline From: Dean_Ellis@wilsonandhorton.co.nz To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Astounding arrogance is getting shown here. Since when do we have the right to tell someone how to run their characters. Whatever style they want to play, and this includes not only personality and quirks but how they progress their character ranking wise, is up to the player. If they want to go hard on one particular spell who are we to tell them they can't or shouldn't. We need to leave as much variety as possible. Case in point would be comparing Saydar the OSW who is now saying look how tough I am, to Dramus the I want to stay medium, please. Examples of players obviously spoiling the game for our non-team players would be useful, are they OSW or just not tough enough for the adventure they are on, a situation that does come up too often. Ciao for now, Dean Keith Smith on 15/10/98 11:50:55 AM Please respond to dq@dq.sf.org.nz To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz cc: (bcc: Dean Ellis/IT/NZHERALD/NZ) Subject: RE: One high rank spell (was Re: Casting for Ranking) >Anyway, most of this is blatantly obvious to anyone who has played for a >while, I think that any rule we tried to put in to prevent this would >cause more problems than it would solve. >We should resolve this as GMs, if you see a set of ranking that is >leading a character towards being a one shot wonder, steer them aside >(explaining why). And consider giving existing OSWs the option of >re-ranking their spells. Now that makes a great deal of sense. Isn't it part of our jobs as GMs to help players develop better characters? Keith (phaeton@ihug.co.nz) -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Oct 15 13:34:28 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id NAA28620; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 13:34:28 +1300 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (root@tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id NAA28611 ; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 13:34:27 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p23-max18.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.101.87]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA28556 ; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 13:28:26 +1300 Message-Id: <199810150028.NAA28556@smtp2.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: Casting for Ranking Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 13:11:02 +1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. > > I don't know about anyone else but it makes more sense to me to only rank > the spells that were used in the previous session. > > Keith > (phaeton@ihug.co.nz) Anyone who has ever played RuneQuest can tell you that players will often go through the full gamut of their skills to get a check against something, so they have a chance of increasing it. In DQ, you would tend to see players casting spells with a hideous degree of abandon, so that they'd qualify to Rank it. I'd rather not see player behaviour modified like that. And, most importantly, to execute this suggestion, the DM would have to keep an account of how many casts the player had made...I've got better things to do with my DM time. Jim. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Oct 15 13:34:29 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id NAA28635; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 13:34:29 +1300 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (root@tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id NAA28624 ; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 13:34:28 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p23-max18.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.101.87]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA28559 ; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 13:28:27 +1300 Message-Id: <199810150028.NAA28559@smtp2.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: One high rank spell (was Re: Casting for Ranking) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 13:16:19 +1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. ---------- > From: Terry Spencer > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Subject: RE: One high rank spell (was Re: Casting for Ranking) > Date: Thursday, October 15, 1998 10:42 AM > > > > > I can't see any problems with specialising although it would limit what > > that character could do in certain situations and could be a liability in > > others. However, that's the players choice. Why should we try and rule on > > how a player wants their character to be? Let them learn from experience. > > > Except it impact on the enjoyability of the other players when they > join an adventure on the strength of the single spell. I'm often frustrated > as a player by having to carry other players who are one shot wonders. Their > contribution is very limited and contingent upon the use of a single spell > and in the cases where they can't use their spell the other members of the > party need to expend time and effort to keep them functioning. > > I've also found when you suggest people take a half share at the > start of an adventure they tend to get very upset. > > Terry I agree that a character who has less to contribute should take half-shares. It is impossible to enforce, as a DM. However, if I were DMing a game, and other players said that a particular player(s) should only be awarded an half-share, and I thought that the other players were right, I would rule that way. It is, after all, only fair. Jim. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Oct 15 13:34:26 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id NAA28608; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 13:34:26 +1300 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (root@tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id NAA28597 ; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 13:34:25 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p23-max18.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.101.87]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA28548 ; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 13:28:24 +1300 Message-Id: <199810150028.NAA28548@smtp2.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: GMs are Players, too... Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 13:03:37 +1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. ---------- > From: Bart Janssen > > > Tough, really, Jacqui...I don't care if it's hard, that's your burden, not > > mine. I have said continuously that only people who don't have characters > > in a college should be revising or rewriting them, and I stand by it. > > I disagree. Only people who play a college have the necessary > experience to be able to decide what is and is not in the interest of the > player of that college. Even GMs who used the college for NPCs only > get a narrow view of what the college is really like for a player. Insisting > that all people involved in a college rewrite declare any conflict of > interest and remove themselves from the discussion denies their > intimate experience with the college and assumes that they cannot > distinguish between what is good for the game and what is good for their > character. Furthermore it belittles them as people by denying their > ability to be objective. I didn't say they shouldn't contribute to a discussion, in fact I said that their input should be welcome. What I did say was that theirs should not be the voice of editorial control. And the reason for revising a college is most often to rebalance it. That is quite frequently not in the interests of the player of the college, but it may be in the interest of the game. A player only has experience of his college, not of the effect on the game. A DM should, ideally, be looking to the entire game. Again, let me repeat, a person who plays a character of that college may have useful ideas to contribute, but in my experience, someone who has nothing to gain from the development of a college reduces the incidence of 'New Supplement' syndrome. As for belittling people by denying them the ability to be objective, well, if that's the construction you want to put on it, fine. However, it is a principle of the process of law, commerce and government that we all accept as reasonable. I don't see why it should suddenly be taken exception to in this instance. > > Of course there will be some screw ups mostly unintentional. But I > personally think that all the GMs try very hard to be objective and when > they fail there are always those like you quick to point out their failure. > And most times they then admit that failure and correct it. > > > I didn't say you were alone. You are certainly the most obvious offender, > > and I put it to you that the reason is because you do it the most. > > Oh no I am dethroned. As what, Bart? I think there are some things you are still the best at. As I have remarked on a previous post, I thought that this was a post directly to Jacqui. I didn't intend this to post to the list, in general. For whatever pain and embarrassment I might have caused to other people, and in particular to Jacqui, I once again tender my most abject apologies. I shall endeavour to check where these things go in the future. Jim. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Oct 15 13:34:36 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id NAA28692; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 13:34:36 +1300 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (root@tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id NAA28662 ; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 13:34:33 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p23-max18.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.101.87]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA28566 ; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 13:28:28 +1300 Message-Id: <199810150028.NAA28566@smtp2.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: One high rank spell (was Re: Casting for Ranking) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 13:19:14 +1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. ---------- > From: Stephen Martin > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Subject: RE: One high rank spell (was Re: Casting for Ranking) > Date: Thursday, October 15, 1998 11:20 AM > > > The one shot wonders disrupt the balance of parties. Generally it only > applies to combat related spells. Having Rk 15 Water Breathing, Shadow > Wings, or Converse with Animals doesn't stop you from being a low > character and fitting in with low parties. > The problem is from high rank attack spells attached to otherwise low > level characters. You get the same problem with low characters carrying > around high rank investeds. > > Their offensive abilities are too tough for a low level adventure, but > they're not tough enough to survive Mediums. > Sometimes this can be self regulating, GMs refuse to take them on low > adventures, and they die lots on medium adventures. The problem is (as > Terry pointed out) they aren't the only ones to suffer. > If they adventure with lows, the offensive capabilities of the other > characters become irrelevant, and they (quite reasonably) get > annoyed/bored/frustrated. > If they adventure with mediums or highs they need to be > carried/protected by the other characters, otherwise the party needs to > spend time and energy getting them resurrected. > > Anyway, most of this is blatantly obvious to anyone who has played for a > while, I think that any rule we tried to put in to prevent this would > cause more problems than it would solve. > We should resolve this as GMs, if you see a set of ranking that is > leading a character towards being a one shot wonder, steer them aside > (explaining why). And consider giving existing OSWs the option of > re-ranking their spells. > > Cheers, Stephen. If you beleive that a character is not right for the game you want to run, for whatever reason, then why DM them? Just choose not to let them play. Jim. Wondering. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Oct 15 13:34:33 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id NAA28659; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 13:34:33 +1300 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (root@tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id NAA28650 ; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 13:34:32 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p23-max18.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.101.87]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA28582 ; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 13:28:31 +1300 Message-Id: <199810150028.NAA28582@smtp2.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: One high rank spell (was Re: Casting for Ranking) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 13:25:43 +1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. ---------- > From: Dean_Ellis@wilsonandhorton.co.nz > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Subject: RE: One high rank spell (was Re: Casting for Ranking) > Date: Thursday, October 15, 1998 12:35 PM > > > Astounding arrogance is getting shown here. Since when do we have the right > to tell someone how to run their characters. Whatever style they want to > play, and this includes not only personality and quirks but how they > progress their character ranking wise, is up to the player. If they want to > go hard on one particular spell who are we to tell them they can't or > shouldn't. We need to leave as much variety as possible. Case in point > would be comparing Saydar the OSW who is now saying look how tough I am, to > Dramus the I want to stay medium, please. Examples of players obviously > spoiling the game for our non-team players would be useful, are they OSW or > just not tough enough for the adventure they are on, a situation that does > come up too often. > > Ciao for now, > Dean I don't see a problem with a DM telling a player that the direction they're going in isn't wise, really. I wouldn't want to see this as a rule. If a player was useless because of over-specialisation, then I wouldn't DM them. That is, after all, my right, and my obligation...To make sure that the game is enjoyable to the players. If, on the other hand, an over-specialised character was useful in a particular game, in my opinion, then I'd have no problem taking them. Jim. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Oct 15 13:34:30 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id NAA28646; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 13:34:30 +1300 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (root@tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id NAA28637 ; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 13:34:29 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p23-max18.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.101.87]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA28551 ; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 13:28:25 +1300 Message-Id: <199810150028.NAA28551@smtp2.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: One high rank spell (was Re: Casting for Ranking) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 13:05:43 +1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. > I can't see any problems with specialising although it would limit what > that character could do in certain situations and could be a liability in > others. However, that's the players choice. Why should we try and rule on > how a player wants their character to be? Let them learn from experience. > > Keith > (phaeton@ihug.co.nz) Agreed. Jim. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Oct 15 13:51:29 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id NAA28794; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 13:51:29 +1300 Received: from mail.iconz.co.nz (mail.iconz.co.nz [202.14.100.36]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id NAA28785 ; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 13:51:28 +1300 Received: from mandos (e0.firewall.ak.iconz.net.nz [202.14.100.208]) by mail.iconz.co.nz (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA176510908412327 ; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 13:45:27 +1300 (NZDT) Message-ID: <00eb01bdf7d4$fe1a3620$1564a8c0@mandos.ICONZ> Subject: Re: One high rank spell (was Re: Casting for Ranking) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 13:44:39 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 From: "Mandos Mitchinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >> I've also found when you suggest people take a half share at the >> start of an adventure they tend to get very upset. >I agree that a character who has less to contribute should take >half-shares. It is impossible to enforce, as a DM. >However, if I were DMing a game, and other players said that a particular >player(s) should only be awarded an half-share, and I thought that the >other players were right, I would rule that way. >It is, after all, only fair. I have actually had quite a few occasions had players accept half shares. Most players will generally accept that they are underpowered for an adventure and will accept that half shares is fair. I have never seen anyone complain if requested to take half shares. I used to regularly take David Hall's character with mine with his on half shares and it was no problem. Mandos /s -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Oct 15 16:29:03 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id QAA28920; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 16:29:03 +1300 Received: from kcbbs.gen.nz (kcbbs.gen.nz [202.14.102.1]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id QAA28909 ; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 16:28:58 +1300 Received: from LOCALNAME (as5200-29.kcbbs.gen.nz [202.14.102.59]) by kcbbs.gen.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA22247 ; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 16:20:09 +1300 (NZDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.16.19981015162042.279fa1d6@kcbbs.gen.nz> X-Sender: salient@kcbbs.gen.nz X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (16) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 16:20:42 Subject: Re: One high rank spell (was Re: Casting for Ranking) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: Brent & Sally To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. At 09:35 AM 15/10/98 GMT+1200, Bart Janssen wrote: > >Rosemary wrote > >> I agree with the problem. It doesn't happen very often but when it does >> one 'high level' damage spell can destroy the balance of a low level party. > >This is another problem (or not maybe). I've seen several characters >with one highly ranked spell and virtually no ranks in the others > >What do people think, is there a problem here? I think it is a problem, as the character is not very "real". Experience points that a character has earned supposedly represents their gaining in proficiency through the use of an ability. Unless the character does nought else but use a single spell, then they should not be able to pour all of their experience into it. >If so how do we address it. I would suggest a maximum of 3 ranks for spells, talents and rituals, and 2 ranks for weapons or skills, _unless_ written approval is obtained from your previous GM indicating that due to excessive use of certain abilities, these limits have been increased (say to a maximum of double the above numbers). A rule such as this will restrict gamers, but have little effect on role-players. Cheers, Brent. PS : A piece of DQ history - the 5 x casts per spell per rank before being able to rank it, was introduced to replace a prior rule, namely, that an ability had to be used on an adventure before it could be ranked. This prior rule merely meant that people would arbitrarily cast spells or use skills so that they were unrestricted in how they spent their EP. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Oct 15 17:09:55 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id RAA28967; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 17:09:55 +1300 Received: from fclaklmr01.fcl.co.nz ([203.98.14.148] (may be forged)) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id RAA28956 ; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 17:09:54 +1300 Received: from falaklnt000.falum.co.nz ([10.8.1.20]) by fclaklmr01.fcl.co.nz (Post.Office MTA v3.5.1 release 219 ID# 0-0U10L2S100) with SMTP id nz ; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 17:02:51 +1300 Received: by falaklnt000.falum.co.nz with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5) id <01BDF85D.F0D80DA0@falaklnt000.falum.co.nz>; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 17:04:59 +1300 Message-ID: Subject: RE: One high rank spell (was Re: Casting for Ranking) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 17:04:45 +1300 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Andrew Withy (FAL AKL)" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Having Blending @ Rk 16 after your first adventure doesn't matter. Having Damnum Minatum @16, Sleep @ 11, does. Ranking like this when you are High doesn't matter either. It's not the fast ranking, it's an unbalancing or OSW problem. This also happens with skills & weapons - seldom played characters can have weapons Rank 8-10 on their 3rd adventure, and skills can get to Rank 5 after one adventure. This isn't much of a problem It also happens with non-combat spells, but this doesn't unbalance as much. The problem is campaign, not rules based. Any solution should be campaign-based, even if it is a rules fix. I would prefer counseling and advice (from "get a life" to "you may find it better to...") Why legislate when you can just advise - and you can always refuse to sign their rankings - I've done this before on this issue. Andrew -- See message headers to unsubscribe from --