From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 20 03:58:47 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id DAA03029; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 03:58:47 +1300 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (root@tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id DAA03020 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 03:58:46 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p33-max35.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.105.161]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA27936 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 03:51:59 +1300 Message-Id: <199810191451.DAA27936@smtp1.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: Guild Ego Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 00:32:17 +1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. ---------- > From: Andrew Luxton > >Given an income of 2-3 million the duke could maintain at max 1500 > >troops, and this is being generous. ( 2000 pa per soldier ) > > I think this is where the guild comes into it's own. It is the _extremely_ > high level of magic which makes the guild so important. A single high > level character is probably worth the same as 1500 troops in military might > (of course this depends upon the character). > > Example: A single rank 10 earth elemental is unstoppable by regular troops. This is a reason to change the spell, Andrew, not a reason to support the idea that one character can have that much of an effect on the politics of a principality. Otherwise, all a prince has to do is hire a couple of earth mages at 1/10th the cost of a regiment, and the mage will be happy, never having seen that much money in one place before, and the prince will be happy because he's divested himself of an enormous drain on his coffers...Added to which, his new forces are mobile, already trained, and easy to communicate with. And, they're bound to have a few other abilities aside from Earth Elemental, as well. I know that an army is going to be essential for any prince, but if you have ten such regiments, and you replace two with Earth mages, then you have just saved yourself a bundle...And we're not talking the red spotted kind that hang off of the sticks of vagabonds, either. > > You need magic to fight magic. That is a different argument. It seems to me that it is a good thing to have mages act as a special unit of it's own...Designed to counter magic, or to use it as artillery or whatever. > If most of the magic is controlled by the > guild, then it's importance is paramount. IMO the essence of the guild is > the high level of magic (not only highly ranked spells, but magic items and > unique abilities) which is used by its members. If I were the Duke, I'd consider the Guild as being of value at all ONLY if it owed me some service. Otherwise, I'd be likely to think of it as a potential threat. Notice, however, that I said potential. I would definitely welcome them into my lands, and even near a population centre. This means that I would be able to keep tabs on what the guild members were up to, and what sort of abilities they had. And, I would be quietly arranging for some very nasty accidents to happen to those guild members that I thought might seriously represent a threat to me. The main reason for having the Guild around is to have someone to blame in the event of disease, foul weather, crop failures, and milk souring. The Guild would represent to me a ready made scapegoat, filled with people whose traffickings with the blackest pits of Tartarus are obviously responsible for Aunt Emmie's chilblains... Jim. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 20 03:59:08 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id DAA03097; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 03:59:08 +1300 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (root@tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id DAA03087 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 03:59:07 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p33-max35.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.105.161]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA27951 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 03:52:14 +1300 Message-Id: <199810191452.DAA27951@smtp1.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: EP Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 02:59:12 +1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. ---------- > From: Andrew Withy (FAL AKL) > >I am not. All this does is attach a lot of emotional investment in a > >character, and slow down the progression of new characters. > I agree. However, I regard both of these as desirable, while it appears > you regard them as undesirable. I regard the emotional involvement in an imaginary character to the point that the player can't sleep at night as unhealthy, Andrew. Don't you? I have seen that reaction. I don't particularly want to see it again. Perhaps I should have said neurotic emotional involvement. I really didn't expect to have my sentence so completely misread. >It also slows down the progression of > Med/High characters. No, it may slow down Medium level characters, it won't do much about High level characters. They just won't see much change in their characters. > Emotional investment in characters and their history, life, > idiosyncrasities and abilities is the primary reason why I am attracted > to DQ. Throw-away characters that I don't care about aren't much fun for > me. (On the other hand, the risk of permanent death is needed, etc, etc) > > I haven't seen the advance of PCs as a problem. I do see boredom > and dissaffection as one, though. Any rule that makes the game less > >enjoyable must be carefully weighed before applying it. It seems to me that > >your objection to rapid advancement is based on a personal preference, > >Andrew. > This is at least partially true (see spiel above). However, I don't > think that myself, Adam and George all have the same approach to DQ. > When disparate people agree, perhaps there is a wider issue than mere > personality. I, personally, think you three are remarkably similar, actually, Andrew. You all three seem to approach roleplaying in the same way, I would have said. > Are you implying that people need to get tough quick to stop boredom? - If they choose to get tough quick, big deal. They obviously want their characters to be tough...I don't see a problem. Or are you saying that a tough character is, perforce, a less interesting character? Or can we just stop putting words into each other's mouth. > they certainly need change and a feeling of progress between games, but > I am proposing a change of scale I know what you meant, Andrew. I can read English, in fact, it's my mother tongue. > - people would need to adapt their > absolute expectations, but the proportional change would be the same. Why, pray? Surely this hasn't been decided one way or another. Aren't you begging the question? > I agree that rules making the game less enjoyable should be questioned - > I'm here to have fun & make fun for others. But, apparently, only your kind of fun, Andrew. > > >I don't see what DM reasons you have for suggesting it. You don't appear > >to have advanced any, here. > The same reasons that you have to oppose it - its a funny old world... No, my DM reasons are that I see boredom and dissaffection being caused by this change, leading to a loss of enjoyment. Your reasons are that you prefer to develop your character slowly, with small changes. That is a personal reason. Because, it seems to me, you are saying that other people should enjoy what you enjoy. > > >As for Top-Out Syndrome, Andrew, how do you accidentally Top > >Out?...Surely, > >you have to have chosen to Top Out? If a player has chosen to Top Out, then > >that's fine, as far as I can see. The next step is to play in a different > >level of game, altogether, or to retire the character. > Top-Out is a "recognised problem" by some players & GMs - I leave it to > those affected to explain. It doesn't affect me yet... I have not seen this problem, Andrew. George has said on occasion that he doesn't want his character to play at High levels, and he chooses to play that character at lower levels. He is perfectly at liberty to do so, now. He would not have the choice, really, should this suggestion be accepted. As for it being a recognised problem, Andrew, I don't believe it. There are any number of dreadfully tough characters around the Guild, and they seem to have little difficulty in finding ways to spend the xp they gain. They may have a hard time finding a game to play in, but that's okay... As I see it, there is no problem with the xp awards, it's just that some people don't like the way that xp is spent. I don't know why. Too much spare time would be my guess. Jim. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 20 03:58:57 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id DAA03054; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 03:58:57 +1300 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (root@tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id DAA03044 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 03:58:56 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p33-max35.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.105.161]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA27946 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 03:52:06 +1300 Message-Id: <199810191452.DAA27946@smtp1.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: Champions. Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 00:49:45 +1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. ---------- > From: amtennant@worley.co.nz > > >> Champions is my favourite RPG. > > >It is a very poor game, Adam, with little grace, and no soul. Worth > >reading. Not worth running. > > It's good for light relief though. :) I fear you have misunderstood me, Adam. It's not worth running, because it's very hard to give the game itself colour...For example, you might decide to have a character that uses an energy bolt...And you decide that you want to use fire as the energy type...Now, because you can generate a bolt of fire, one would have thought that you could use it to, say, start a fire, to stay warm in a cold environment, or to provide light in darkness...However, these things are separate abilities, and have to be bought individually...There is little provision for the player thinking of an interesting or imaginative way of using an ability during the game...That only happens in character generation. > > It's basically an OTT, amusing game. It's not really a long campaign type > of > game, but it's good for short, rediculous encounters. It's not it's OTT nature that makes it colourless. It is the way you build your character like military unit buying a war-game. > > And I do love the character generation system. As I say, I definitely think it's worth reading, if only because it categorises the nature of abilites, and gives them special values...It's like a tool for designing character abilities. Which is useful for DMs. I'd take a lot of convincing before I'd consider running it againm though....Dancing girls would be my reserve price... Jim. Eating sherbet. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 20 03:59:09 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id DAA03119; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 03:59:09 +1300 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (root@tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id DAA03101 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 03:59:09 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p33-max35.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.105.161]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA27958 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 03:52:22 +1300 Message-Id: <199810191452.DAA27958@smtp1.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: EP Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 03:22:44 +1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. ---------- > From: amtennant@worley.co.nz > The problem with this comes when you don't know the character in question > so > have no idea whether they'll fit your adventure or not. You could go > through > character sheets as you sign people up but it's not possible in the hectic > scramble for adventures. > And bu the time you get to the first night, its hard to turn people away > unless > they have another suitable character who's not busy. > If they have another character that's suitable, that's fine, there is no problem. If they don't have another character, then, they're out of luck. As a DM, you are moderating the game for the enjoyment of the players, and if a player's character will make that game less enjoyable, then I don't see what alternative you have. Jim. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 20 03:59:11 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id DAA03138; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 03:59:11 +1300 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (root@tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id DAA03128 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 03:59:10 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p33-max35.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.105.161]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA27963 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 03:52:24 +1300 Message-Id: <199810191452.DAA27963@smtp1.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: EP Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 03:33:09 +1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. ---------- > From: Mandos Mitchinson > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Subject: Re: EP > Date: Monday, October 19, 1998 2:08 PM > > > > >I see your point Jim. If you receive lots of EP it is your choice to become > >tough quickly. Some, if not Many players choose to rank things which don't > >make their character tougher, but expand the character nevertheless and > >do this to remain lower level for longer. I am doing this myself with my > >newest character to some extent, so I can play on low games for longer. > > > On the other hand you are a long time member of DQ. A new player will be > keen to advance to see what happens and may lose the enjoyment that low > level games engender before they realise that they lost an option. You never lose options in roleplaying games, George. The simplest thing a player can do is to start a new character and have another go, and there are any number of ways of organising it so that you can return to a low-level game, if you want to. > > In most cases the first character is the most important to a > player. Is it? > > DQ needs to attract new players and if a change like this can help them even > without them knowing then is it not a good thing? You are begging the question, George. You are assuming that your personal preference is something that all right-thinking roleplayers would choose. Of course it's a good thing to help players to enjoy themselves. I seriously doubt that this helps anyone. I think it just implicitly states that the only way to really roleplay is to do so at low-level and spurn the High level games. And, frankly, that kind of condescending help would not encourage me to play the game again. I'd like to think that I'm completely capable of determining what I wanted for my character. Jim. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 20 03:59:22 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id DAA03186; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 03:59:22 +1300 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (root@tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id DAA03177 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 03:59:21 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p33-max35.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.105.161]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA27972 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 03:52:34 +1300 Message-Id: <199810191452.DAA27972@smtp1.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: Top Out Syndrome? Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 03:48:17 +1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. ---------- > From: Bart Janssen > Most of the big problems I've seen with top out occur with pure fighters. > Unless you choose to be a mage, despite what your character may > think about mages in general, then there is very little to do after you > maximise rank in the weapon(s) of choice. As far as improving combat > abilities Ambar is completely and utterly topped out. The only way to > improve from here is to get cute magic items and favours from gods. > Within the mechanics of the system there is nothing for Ambar to do. > That has been true for about the last five years of playing time (not > counting the 3 years I just spent away). Same answer as for Rosemary, really. > > For mages top out depends on college. There are some colleges where > top out occurs early because few spells are available or because few > spells are relevant. One example that sticks out is Silverfoam who can > only really improve because he can now learn spells outside his college. Nope. Silverfoam was not in any danger of topping out when I gave him that ability, Bart. His highest ranked spell was 7, I think. He had plenty of places to spend xp, and plenty of reasons to. > > The thing to identify with top out is the difference between characters > who continue to play and do different things because they want to and > those who do it because there is nothing else for them to do because > they have topped out in their chosen field. If your character has nowhere to spend xp, and you want to continue playing it, then clearly, you need to find something to spend it on. When you think of one, ask a DM you respect to run a game based around finding the thing you want. > By the way 600000 ep is peanuts. Um...What's your point here, Bart? Jim. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 20 03:59:18 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id DAA03159; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 03:59:18 +1300 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (root@tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id DAA03150 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 03:59:17 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p33-max35.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.105.161]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA27967 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 03:52:27 +1300 Message-Id: <199810191452.DAA27967@smtp1.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: Top Out Syndrome? Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 03:37:29 +1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. ---------- > From: rmansfield@aj.co.nz > After 10 years of play I now have a character with all her stats at max; > all the 'outdoors' skills at max (or nearly), all her weapons (about 6) at > max, and not a hell of a lot to > do with any additional ep. > > 1. To take up new skills will involve changing her nature and taste, which > I'm not keen on. > 2. She considers fighting is something you have to do sometimes, and isn't > interested in making it a profession. > 3. After 10 years of scorning mages there's no way she is learning a > college. > > I have no problem with her topping out at and only being mid-level, that's > a side effect of being a specialized character. But it would be nice to > have something to do with that ep. That's supposed to be our reward after > all. Well, look for something else you could learn that would fit, Rosemary...There are heaps of things you could learn that aren't covered by the rule book...You are only as limited as your imagination. Think of something you'd like Amelia to learn, and ask a DM you respect to run a game to learn whatever it is you think of. Jim. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 20 03:58:35 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id DAA02989; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 03:58:35 +1300 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (root@tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id DAA02978 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 03:58:34 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p33-max35.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.105.161]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA27923 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 03:51:46 +1300 Message-Id: <199810191451.DAA27923@smtp1.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: Guild Ego Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 00:06:17 +1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. > 250,000 in "the surrounding countryside" seems a little on the high side. It depends on where the borders of the surrounding countryside are, really... > Consider that Europe lost 160,000 odd to the Black Death in the 1300s > ( the first big epidemic ) and that was 2/3 of the population. > That's 2/3 of the entire population being 160K. At it's worst, the Black Death killed no more than a 3rd of the urban population, and that's bending every figure to sensationalise the amount of death that the plague might have caused. Of course, even if the death rate was 5% of the population, then that means that one person in twenty aren't there anymore, which means that your means of production consequently fall, although the costs to maintain your society remain pretty much the same...So, perhaps a lot of people die of secondary causes, rather than the plague...Like, how many carters are going to drive into a town where they've heard there be plague...And, the food doesn't usually drive itself to market... > 250K around Seagate? I don't think so. Well, then the size of the population of Seagate needs to be looked at...Unless you want to allow for magic to have an effect. The standard division of burghers to peasants, I believe, is about 20:1...London was supposed to have had an urban population of about 25,000, under the reign (such as it was) of Stephen...Which meant it needed the support of something like 500,000 peasants. But, then it's surrounding countryside was pretty massive... Jim. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 20 03:59:07 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id DAA03079; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 03:59:07 +1300 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (root@tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id DAA03068 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 03:59:06 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p33-max35.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.105.161]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA27954 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 03:52:19 +1300 Message-Id: <199810191452.DAA27954@smtp1.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: EP :The real problem. Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 03:16:46 +1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. ---------- > From: Mandos Mitchinson > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Subject: Re: EP :The real problem. > Date: Monday, October 19, 1998 1:51 PM > > > > >> This brings a new character to 9100ep as an average game which I feel is > >> much more the range that we should be looking at. > > > >It's nice to know how you feel, George. What DM reasons do you offer to > >support your preference? > > > I tend to the point of view that things are more important if you have > strived for them. If you cannot immediatly reach your goals you are forced > to reassess your goals and think more about who you are and how you spend > your EP. Low level adventures can be a lot of fun but it is hard to find > players for such games as most characters are into medium after 3 sometimes less> adventures. Agreed, George. Low level adventures can be a lot of fun. And, the player should feel as if they earnt their xp. > > >From a GM perspective it dosn't matter how much EP we give out. If someone > says I want to be a high character we could give out 2,000,000 EP and not > care. It does not effect the game that we are running as EP does not turn up > as an issue until after the game has left our hands and has moved onto the > next GM. > > This means that the issue of EP needs to be looked at from the player angle > not that of the GM. As a player recieving lots of EP the value of the EP > becomes meaningless. It is supposed to be a reward for good play but it just > becomes a number. > Huh? Because the award leaves one DM's game, and moves to another DM's game, it becomes a player thing...What bottle did that come out of? > Frankly both options both have their good points and > their bad. I don't really care what we do with EP but I do feel that the > system and the players would benefit from reducing the amounts from their > current level. So, once again, I'm forced to ask, what are your reasons for feeling that way? Jim. Listening to the echo. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 20 03:58:42 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id DAA03008; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 03:58:42 +1300 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (root@tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id DAA02998 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 03:58:42 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p33-max35.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.105.161]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA27928 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 03:51:51 +1300 Message-Id: <199810191451.DAA27928@smtp1.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: Guild Ego Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 00:11:52 +1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. ---------- > From: Noel Livingston {DSL AK} >Please don't take this away and make the whole world a > pretty place full of flowers > and nice people who say hello to strangers and buy them free drinks. > Nasty horrible world full of > greedy people allows nice characters to stand out from the crowd. In > nice places the only way > to stand out is to be horrible ( we are encouraging nasty characters to > be played by making the world too nice ) > cause being different is fun. I have never noticed Alusia as being a nice place, really...I have always considered it a world of rapacious cutthroats, where quick reflexes were more valuable than a ready smile...Show me this hippie kingdom...It's obviously a place to retire one's character to... But, what I find interesting is the idea that if the world is an unpleasant place, then players will try to be nice to stand out...Something I had not considered before, and, I think, worth doing some considering over... Jim.Interested. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 20 09:57:01 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id JAA03458; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 09:57:01 +1300 Received: from date.palm.cri.nz (date.palm.cri.nz [161.66.1.20]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id JAA03447 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 09:56:58 +1300 Received: from mail1.marc.cri.nz (mail1.marc.cri.nz [161.29.1.1]) by date.palm.cri.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA06787 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 09:41:40 +1300 (NZDT) Received: from hra1.marc.cri.nz (unverified [161.29.1.5]) by mail1.marc.cri.nz (Dr Solomon's SMTPRS 2.0.15) with ESMTP id ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 09:47:33 +1300 Message-Id: Received: from HRA1/SpoolDir by hra1.marc.cri.nz (Mercury 1.31); 20 Oct 98 09:50:39 GMT+12 Received: from SpoolDir by HRA1 (Mercury 1.31); 20 Oct 98 09:50:20 GMT+12 Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 09:50:14 GMT+1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Guild Ego X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01b) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT From: "Bart Janssen" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Andrew wrote > > Example: A single rank 10 earth elemental is unstoppable by regular > troops. Jim replied > This is a reason to change the spell, Andrew, not a reason to support the > idea that one character can have that much of an effect on the politics of > a principality. Wrong. The spells and magic that exist in the DQ world are essentially the same as the fundamental laws of physics that exist in our own world. The historical model derived from our world cannot and will not fit into a world with such different basic laws of reality. In this case Jim, Andrew is right and you are wrong. Just because large regiments of troops were important in our history does not make it reasonable for them to exist in the same manner in the DQ world. Thus since the spell DOES exist, the world model must be different. Any other assumption is just silly. The same logic applies to population numbers and loss of life from plagues. Mages can bless crops hence food production can be higher than in our history. Healers can cure disease (at relatively low ranks) hence plagues WILL stop, unlike in our own history where the black death ran for centuries and did kill 95% of the people in some towns (probably because the people in those towns shared a very similar genotype and were all susceptable) and none in other towns. Overall the black death probably killed an average of around 25% of town or city dwellers but it is important to note that that is an average and there were much higher death rates in some areas. With healers such a plague is not possible. Put simply, given the magic system as it exists unless you postulate that mages and healers are very rare (unlikely given the experience of guild members) then patterns of life are very very different from our own history and that is most obvious in cities, warfare and armies. They cannot be otherwise. To try and change the magic system to fit our history would be silly. cheers Bart Saying Windows 95 is equal to Macintosh is like finding a potato that looks like Jesus and believing you've witnessed the second coming. -- Guy Kawasaki Bart Janssen Hort+Research Private Bag 92169 Auckland New Zealand ph 64 9 8154200 x 7279 fax 64 9 8154201 -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 20 10:44:45 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id KAA03555; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 10:44:45 +1300 Received: from smtp.worley.co.nz (smtp.worley.co.nz [202.36.210.250]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id KAA03544 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 10:44:42 +1300 Received: by smtp.worley.co.nz(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.1 (569.2 2-6-1998)) id 4C2566A2.007C2184 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 10:35:50 +1200 X-Lotus-FromDomain: WORLEY CONSULTANTS Message-ID: <4C2566A2.007B537E.00@smtp.worley.co.nz> Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 10:38:11 +1200 Subject: Re: Guild Ego Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline From: amtennant@worley.co.nz To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >> Example: A single rank 10 earth elemental is unstoppable by regular >> troops. >Jim replied >> This is a reason to change the spell, Andrew, not a reason to support the >> idea that one character can have that much of an effect on the politics of >> a principality. >Wrong. The spells and magic that exist in the DQ world are essentially >the same as the fundamental laws of physics that exist in our own >world. The historical model derived from our world cannot and will not >fit into a world with such different basic laws of reality. In this case Jim, >Andrew is right and you are wrong. Just because large regiments of >troops were important in our history does not make it reasonable for >them to exist in the same manner in the DQ world. Thus since the spell >DOES exist, the world model must be different. Any other assumption >is just silly. [Healers and Plague] >Put simply, given the magic system as it exists unless you postulate >that mages and healers are very rare (unlikely given the experience of >guild members) then patterns of life are very very different from our own >history and that is most obvious in cities, warfare and armies. They >cannot be otherwise. To try and change the magic system to fit our >history would be silly. This is something which has always been a problem with the DQ world IMHO. Consider a large, coastal city supported by the following: Trade: Ships powered by magic. Rune Portals. Industry: Mining/Metal Working/Construction etc with Elementals. Unbreakable machinery/Tools. Agriculture: Blessed crops. Water Mage irrigation etc. Control Weather. Plant Growth. Warfare: plenty of obvious applications there. And these are just the tip of the iceberg. A society with access to these kinds of resources would be a very "modern" society. But is this evident in Alusia? Not really. It's a "typical" medieval style world for the most part. Sure, there are pockets of this sort of thing, but given the obvious availability of magic users, you'd think it'd be everywhere. L8R, Adam. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 20 10:50:56 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id KAA03586; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 10:50:56 +1300 Received: from bo.nznet.gen.nz (nznet.gen.nz [203.98.34.1]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id KAA03576 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 10:50:55 +1300 Received: from takitimu.co.nz (max2-ak28.nznet.gen.nz [203.98.35.93]) by bo.nznet.gen.nz (8.8.7/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA08760 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 10:52:24 +1300 Received: from takitimu.co.nz by takitimu.co.nz; Tue, 20 Oct 98 10:41:49 +1300 Message-ID: <362BB28D.A3E55ACE@takitimu.co.nz> Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 10:43:53 +1300 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: One spell wonders Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Kelsie To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: kelsie@takitimu.co.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. You're missing the point. everyone understands what you're getting at. You're saying the same thing every post. But everyone else diagrees. Reiterating the SAME argument isn't going to change that. Kelsie Bart wrote at length and repeatedly: > That is most definately not my aim. How many times do I have to say this. I like specialists, look at both my characters, they are both specialists (albeit Ambar has topped out so his skill range is spreading). The only change I am suggesting is that characters should not be able to rank a spell a large number of ranks at one time without adventuring in between. > I agree entirely. I like specialists. Somehow I'm not getting this across at all. All I want is to stop characters ranking a spell a large number of ranks all at once. I think a limit of 6 at a time for generals and 4 at a time for specials is not unreasonable. Note this means it takes 5 adventures to get a special to rank 20. That doesn't seem like an unreasonable time to me. For a complete beginer that means they can't get rank 20 telepathy till they have 10 perception. They are still a total specialist cause they've used all their EP (115500 ep), even with a 300 multiple spell this is 63000 ep. The only real effect of this change would be to stop charcaters going from rank 0 to rank 10-12 after one adventure. Beyond rank 12 or so most spells cost too much to rank more than 4 ranks at a time. > > This does NOT stop specialisation. It DOES stop rapid advancment to midlevel. I think that change is good. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 20 10:59:31 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id KAA03648; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 10:59:31 +1300 Received: from bo.nznet.gen.nz (nznet.gen.nz [203.98.34.1]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id KAA03639 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 10:59:30 +1300 Received: from takitimu.co.nz (max2-ak02.nznet.gen.nz [203.98.35.67]) by bo.nznet.gen.nz (8.8.7/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA09167 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 11:01:00 +1300 Received: from takitimu.co.nz by takitimu.co.nz; Tue, 20 Oct 98 10:50:25 +1300 Message-ID: <362BB491.66CB75BE@takitimu.co.nz> Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 10:52:30 +1300 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Guild Ego Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Kelsie To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: kelsie@takitimu.co.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Noel Livingston {DSL AK} wrote: > > Given 50 guildmen go out each 3months and earn 10K each on average the > duke gets 200 K per year in tax, max > > Given a population of 13000 in Seagate, the surrounding countryside if > self suffienent in food would have a peasant population Where does this 13000 come from? That is a huge city in medieval terms, equivalent to Paris or Florence at their height. Carzala is a poky nowhere on the frontier. Kelsie -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 20 10:54:50 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id KAA03614; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 10:54:50 +1300 Received: from bo.nznet.gen.nz (nznet.gen.nz [203.98.34.1]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id KAA03605 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 10:54:49 +1300 Received: from takitimu.co.nz (max2-ak47.nznet.gen.nz [203.98.35.112]) by bo.nznet.gen.nz (8.8.7/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA08957 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 10:56:18 +1300 Received: from takitimu.co.nz by takitimu.co.nz; Tue, 20 Oct 98 10:45:44 +1300 Message-ID: <362BB378.EFD2BE71@takitimu.co.nz> Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 10:47:48 +1300 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Kelsie To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: kelsie@takitimu.co.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Noel Livingston {DSL AK} wrote: > > Other guild training > > It seems unlikely to me that other guilds would allow their sons to be > cast out of their jobs by > training outsiders. This was the whole idea of guilds to maintain their > monopoly. The only ways I > can see adventurers being trained are > 1) marrage > 2) oaths ( really nasty ones generally ) not to produce in seagate or in > competition. If there are > nationwide guilds this would mean - never to use your skill as a living > anywhere in the kingdom. > 3) Immortality > 4) Fantastic wealth so their families ( all the members of the guild ) > need never work again > 5) Resurrection of entire families / clans - they owe us big > 6) Being part of the family as background, a tanners son will know > tanning, a shipbuilders shipbuilding > > 150 pennies given to a guildsman which will mean his son will probably > not have a job is ridiculous. Most sons were actually apprenticed out to other trades. Also a guild is not a family. Guilds don't have sons. The guild is an economic, not genetic, unit. You pay your dues, follow the rules, -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 20 11:17:07 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id LAA03715; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 11:17:07 +1300 Received: from fclaklmr01.fcl.co.nz ([203.98.14.148] (may be forged)) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id LAA03703 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 11:16:48 +1300 Received: from falaklnt000.falum.co.nz ([10.8.1.20]) by fclaklmr01.fcl.co.nz (Post.Office MTA v3.5.1 release 219 ID# 0-0U10L2S100) with SMTP id nz ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 11:09:30 +1300 Received: by falaklnt000.falum.co.nz with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5) id <01BDFC1A.72F68630@falaklnt000.falum.co.nz>; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 11:11:56 +1300 Message-ID: Subject: RE: Guild Ego Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 11:11:53 +1300 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Andrew Withy (FAL AKL)" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. The Alusian society as we play it is built on an assumption of far less magic than Guild Members are used to. Possibilities: 1) Common magic is very recent and society is about to go through a massive upheaval [Renaissance] 2) Magic isn't that common, but is attracted to Guild parties like flies to a corpse. [Co-incidence] 3) There are all sorts of political/cultural reasons why 95% of the population is kept suppressed & ignorant of the luxuries available around the corner. [Eastern Europe/China] 4) Someone is actively suppressing magical advantages & changes for their own reasons [Conspiracy or Theology] If we want to have castles & serfs in the game, even as background flavour, there should be a consistent reason through Western Alusia as to what level of magic is available and why it hasn't changed society to a sybaritic (?sp?), decadent, technological society. Why do hereditary nobility rule when mages have the fire-power & information? Answering this question may help to create a common background flavour in our campaign. I agree with Jim's comments below. If we want a pseudo-fantasy/renaissance world, we need to change rules/campaign pressures to get such a world. If we want peasants starving, we change stuff so they starve. GMs should create the world they want, supported by the rules. If the rules create incorrect pressures, change them. Andrew >---------- >From: Bart Janssen[SMTP:bjanssen@hort.cri.nz] >Sent: Tuesday, 20 October 1998 22:50 >To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz >Subject: Re: Guild Ego > >Andrew wrote > Example: A single rank 10 earth elemental is unstoppable by regular >> troops. > >> This is a reason to change the spell, Andrew, not a reason to support the >> idea that one character can have that much of an effect on the politics of >> a principality. > >Wrong. The spells and magic that exist in the DQ world are essentially >the same as the fundamental laws of physics that exist in our own >world. The historical model derived from our world cannot and will not >fit into a world with such different basic laws of reality. In this case >Jim, >Andrew is right and you are wrong. Just because large regiments of >troops were important in our history does not make it reasonable for >them to exist in the same manner in the DQ world. Thus since the spell >DOES exist, the world model must be different. Any other assumption >is just silly. > > -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 20 11:19:40 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id LAA03747; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 11:19:40 +1300 Received: from fep2-orange.clear.net.nz (fep2-orange.clear.net.nz [203.97.32.2]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id LAA03738 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 11:19:37 +1300 Received: from qed_akl_nt_1.qed.co.nz ([203.97.23.141]) by fep2-orange.clear.net.nz (1.5/1.9) with ESMTP id LAA10697; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 11:12:14 +1300 (NZDT) Received: by qed_akl_nt_1.qed.co.nz with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) id ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 11:12:27 +1300 Message-ID: <15A7D8BC5E3ED2119E2E0000F82150FC0109A1@qed_akl_nt_1.qed.co.nz> Subject: Society and Magic Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 11:12:23 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain From: Stephen Martin To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. The question is not what it should be but what do we want. Once we decide what we want we'll work out why things are that way. Or don't decide, let characters draw their own conclusions. What do I want? .... Fantasy Look and Feel This is the sanitized or holywoodised version of medieval society, no disease ridden people dying in the streets, no open sewers down the middle of the street. Lots of people happily tilling the earth, cleanish towns and cities, beggars by choice rather than desperation. Happy people who occasionally get oppressed, butchered, enslaved, etc by ruthless overlords and evil tyrants - who then have a bad time of it when sufficiently tough adventurers come along. Realistic? I think NOT! But I don't play DQ to get depressed about how imaginary worlds are as bad or worse than the real one, I play to have fun, to be a hero that can make a difference - or an aspiring tyrant :). Pseudo-realism is good for suspension of disbelief, but I don't want my nose rubbed in squalor, and when I portray a world to players I don't enjoy creating squalid pits or despair. Hives of scum and villany - yes, but dives of despair and suffering - no. Cheers, Stephen. > -----Original Message----- > From: amtennant@worley.co.nz [SMTP:amtennant@worley.co.nz] > Subject: Re: Guild Ego > > This is something which has always been a problem with the DQ world > IMHO. > > Consider a large, coastal city supported by the following: > > Trade: Ships powered by magic. Rune Portals. > Industry: Mining/Metal Working/Construction etc with Elementals. > Unbreakable > machinery/Tools. > Agriculture: Blessed crops. Water Mage irrigation etc. Control > Weather. > Plant > Growth. > Warfare: plenty of obvious applications there. > > And these are just the tip of the iceberg. A society with access to > these > kinds > of resources would be a very "modern" society. But is this evident in > Alusia? > > Not really. It's a "typical" medieval style world for the most > part. > Sure, there are pockets of this sort of thing, but given the obvious > availability > of magic users, you'd think it'd be everywhere. > > L8R, > Adam. > -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 20 11:15:09 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id LAA03691; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 11:15:09 +1300 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (root@tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id LAA03680 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 11:15:08 +1300 Received: from phaeton.ihug.co.nz (p11-max39.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.106.139]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA08864 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 11:08:19 +1300 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19981020110441.007b3180@pop.ihug.co.nz> X-Sender: phaeton@pop.ihug.co.nz X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 11:04:41 +1300 Subject: Re: Guild Ego Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: Keith Smith To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >> Given a population of 13000 in Seagate, the surrounding countryside if >> self suffienent in food would have a peasant population > >Where does this 13000 come from? That is a huge city in medieval terms, >equivalent to Paris or Florence at their height. Carzala is a poky nowhere on >the frontier. Good point. I see Carzala as being somewhat comparable (in certain aspects) to late-medieval England. What would the average population density be, in England, at that time? Keith (phaeton@ihug.co.nz) -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 20 11:26:37 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id LAA03822; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 11:26:37 +1300 Received: from kcbbs.gen.nz (kcbbs.gen.nz [202.14.102.1]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id LAA03811 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 11:26:37 +1300 Received: from LOCALNAME (as5200-04.kcbbs.gen.nz [202.14.102.34]) by kcbbs.gen.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA21928 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 11:16:58 +1300 (NZDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.16.19981020110101.2f1f15f2@kcbbs.gen.nz> X-Sender: salient@kcbbs.gen.nz X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (16) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 11:01:01 Subject: Re: One spell wonders Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: Brent & Sally To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. At 10:48 AM 19/10/98 +1200, adam tennant wrote: >What about if your character is really centered around a spell and cast it >buckets? That is why I proposed that a GM could provide written exceptions to the limits. There are some characters that it does fit (and is "realistic") for them to spend 60% or so of their EP on one skill or spell. Brent. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 20 11:26:42 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id LAA03861; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 11:26:42 +1300 Received: from kcbbs.gen.nz (kcbbs.gen.nz [202.14.102.1]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id LAA03851 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 11:26:41 +1300 Received: from LOCALNAME (as5200-04.kcbbs.gen.nz [202.14.102.34]) by kcbbs.gen.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA21942 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 11:17:02 +1300 (NZDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.16.19981020111516.2f1ffe52@kcbbs.gen.nz> X-Sender: salient@kcbbs.gen.nz X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (16) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 11:15:16 Subject: Re: Jim's reply to Andrew Withy Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: Brent & Sally To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. At 02:59 AM 20/10/98 +1300, Jim Arona wrote: >Andrew Withy wrote : >> This is at least partially true (see spiel above). However, I don't >> think that myself, Adam and George all have the same approach to DQ. >> When disparate people agree, perhaps there is a wider issue than mere >> personality. > >I, personally, think you three are remarkably similar, actually, Andrew. >You all three seem to approach roleplaying in the same way, I would have >said. Having played with (and been GM'd by) Andrew and Adam, I say they are extremely different role-players. >But, apparently, only your kind of fun, Andrew. Or, not your kind of fun, Jim ? > Too much spare time would be my guess. (Like people who reply to virtually every post :-). Cheers, Brent. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 20 11:26:36 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id LAA03801; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 11:26:36 +1300 Received: from kcbbs.gen.nz (kcbbs.gen.nz [202.14.102.1]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id LAA03791 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 11:26:35 +1300 Received: from LOCALNAME (as5200-04.kcbbs.gen.nz [202.14.102.34]) by kcbbs.gen.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA21922; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 11:16:54 +1300 (NZDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.16.19981020105720.2f1f0e1e@kcbbs.gen.nz> X-Sender: salient@kcbbs.gen.nz X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (16) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 10:57:20 Subject: Re: Role-playing vs Gaming Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: Brent & Sally To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. At 11:10 AM 16/10/98 +1300, Andrew Luxton wrote: >> Brent wrote : >>A rule such as this will restrict gamers, but have little effect on >>role-players. > >There is a widely used distinction in DQ between "gamers" and >"role-players", and there seems to be an implication that the style of play >from "role-players" is somehow better/ more desirable than that from >"gamers". I do not agree with the distinction, and believe that it usually >obfuscates the real issues. To explain my use of the terms it is necessary to know a little of my view of DQ, (and role-playing). For me, much of the satisfaction and long term enjoyment of a campaign is derived from the portrayal of "realistic" people interacting with a "realistic" world over a period of time. This allows me to "pretend" that I am somebody else, in another universe, and to hence explore morals, ethics and behaviours other than my own. >I maintain the position that good role-players can maintain the "suspension >of disbelief" throughout the game, and are fun to play with (same goes for >GM's IMO). I don't care how efficiently people have spent their EP. I >don't care if they have ranked weapons with a high or low base chance, or >if they have ranked "useless" skills or weapons for flavour purposes. >These things do not make you a better or poorer role-player. I agree. >Anyone who crunches the numbers and ranks abilities that are most >cost-effective is simply following the pressures of the system (which >represents the DQ world). The comment in brackets is the nub of the matter. My use of "Gamer" versus "Role-Player" above is based on a definition along the lines of : Gamer - a person who will use the rules as they are written without regard to the fact that they are attempting (poorly) to represent a realistic world. Roleplayer - a person that will attempt to make their character as real as possible in the campaign world, without regard to optimising their abilities using the game rules. >All players do this to a some degree or another. (I am definitely more of a gamer than a role-player. I do not tend to "waste" EP ranking abilities that do not give my character game benefits). >Characters which are highly optimised would be ambitious people who are >aware of the world, and want an edge Possibly. This is true only if the rules constrain the optimisation to that which is "realistic" or appropriate for the campaign. >Characters who are optimised (even those specialists) are just as >believable as those who are not I disagree. >I don't see how crunching numbers makes you a poorer role-player, and I >don't see how spending EP/ranking efficiently is any less desirable. These >just represent the different choices people make. People prefer different >kinds/styles of role-playing, each of which is equally valid. If the number crunching results in the character acting or evolving in a way that is inconsistant with the campaign world, then I believe that it is less desirable. >So my main points are these: >1. I don't think crunching numbers or optimising characters is a bad thing >(or a good thing), but merely something that people choose to do. I believe it is a bad thing if it results in something which is a poor representation of the campaign world. >2. Knowing the system and choosing to do something because of the way it >is set up is something that _all_ players do. Being good at it does not >make you a bas role player (nor does it make you a good one). True. >3. I don't think that there is any real distinction between "gamers" and >"role-players" There is based on my above definition. That is not to say that some optimisers ("gamers") are not very good actors ("role-players") and vice versa. >4. I don't think it is useful to try and make a distinction between them. But people do. Perhaps I should replace "gamers" with "people who break the game world while adhering to the game rules" and "role-players" with "people who will not break the game world, even to the detriment of their characters". >Andrew Luxton. Thank you for your clear, concise and well written comments. Cheers Brent. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 20 11:26:44 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id LAA03881; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 11:26:44 +1300 Received: from kcbbs.gen.nz (kcbbs.gen.nz [202.14.102.1]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id LAA03872 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 11:26:43 +1300 Received: from LOCALNAME (as5200-04.kcbbs.gen.nz [202.14.102.34]) by kcbbs.gen.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA21947 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 11:17:05 +1300 (NZDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.16.19981020111655.2f1ffafa@kcbbs.gen.nz> X-Sender: salient@kcbbs.gen.nz X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (16) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 11:16:55 Subject: Re: EP Awards Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: Brent & Sally To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. At 12:25 PM 19/10/98 +1200, adam tennant wrote: >Andrew Withy wrote : >>I'm keen on reducing EP awards - maybe to 2/3's current level. > >I agree. Too much EP is being given out. Perhaps the numbers in the EP >award document need looking at. > >I think maybe the 2/3 amount is a little too harsh. Probably 3/4 would do. I agree. Brent. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 20 11:26:31 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id LAA03781; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 11:26:31 +1300 Received: from kcbbs.gen.nz (kcbbs.gen.nz [202.14.102.1]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id LAA03771 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 11:26:31 +1300 Received: from LOCALNAME (as5200-04.kcbbs.gen.nz [202.14.102.34]) by kcbbs.gen.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA21917 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 11:16:52 +1300 (NZDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.16.19981020093715.2d0ff69a@kcbbs.gen.nz> X-Sender: salient@kcbbs.gen.nz X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (16) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 09:37:15 Subject: Re: Guild Ego Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: Brent & Sally To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. At 12:32 AM 20/10/98 +1300, Jim Arona wrote: >> If most of the magic is controlled by the >> guild, then it's importance is paramount. IMO the essence of the guild is >> the high level of magic (not only highly ranked spells, but magic items and >> unique abilities) which is used by its members. > >If I were the Duke, I'd consider the Guild as being of value at all ONLY if >it owed me some service. Otherwise, I'd be likely to think of it as a >potential threat. Notice, however, that I said potential. Nobody seems to have mentioned the fact that it was the Guild who helped the current Duke to power back in '84 AP. This was after the last duke, in conjunction with the then Guild Necromancer, attempted to take over the Guild. (This included the said Necro supplying a party with Frozen Doom investeds, with a range of _self_ !). Cheers, Brent. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 20 11:34:07 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id LAA03965; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 11:34:07 +1300 Received: from kcbbs.gen.nz (kcbbs.gen.nz [202.14.102.1]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id LAA03956 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 11:34:06 +1300 Received: from LOCALNAME (as5200-04.kcbbs.gen.nz [202.14.102.34]) by kcbbs.gen.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA22430; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 11:24:27 +1300 (NZDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.16.19981020112249.2d0f75ec@kcbbs.gen.nz> X-Sender: salient@kcbbs.gen.nz X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (16) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 11:22:49 Subject: Re: One spell wonders Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: Brent & Sally To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. At 10:43 AM 20/10/98 +1300, Kelsie wrote: >Bart wrote at length and repeatedly > >You're missing the point. everyone understands what you're getting at. You're >saying the same thing every post. >But everyone else diagrees. Reiterating the SAME argument isn't going to >change that. SOME people disagree. Some people agree. Brent. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 20 11:26:40 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id LAA03842; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 11:26:40 +1300 Received: from kcbbs.gen.nz (kcbbs.gen.nz [202.14.102.1]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id LAA03831 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 11:26:39 +1300 Received: from LOCALNAME (as5200-04.kcbbs.gen.nz [202.14.102.34]) by kcbbs.gen.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA21938 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 11:17:00 +1300 (NZDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.16.19981020110901.2f1f7ba2@kcbbs.gen.nz> X-Sender: salient@kcbbs.gen.nz X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (16) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 11:09:01 Subject: Re: One spell wonders Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: Brent & Sally To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. At 11:50 AM 19/10/98 +1200, adam tennant wrote: >I don't like restrictions on character generation\advancement Several people have stated that they do not want to introduce any restrictions on ranking. However, we already have many restrictions, yet I have seen no effort by anyone to remove them (eg cannot rank characteristics more than once per EP award, cannot rank Talents more than once a month, cannot rank skills and spells at the same time, cannot go to Rank 8,9,or 10 in a skill without some special action, cannot know more spells less than rank 6 than your MA, cannot learn Assassin from the Guild, cannot learn certain spells from the Guild, cannot rank Warrior without heaps of virtually useless Weapon ranks, totally arbitrary costs on learning spells, etc). >It seems like you're a voice in the wilderness here, Bart. >Perhaps this one should just die a quiet, lonely death. He is not a lone voice. Several people (myself included) have agreed with Bart in our posts. Cheers, Brent. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 20 11:34:40 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id LAA03990; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 11:34:40 +1300 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (root@tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id LAA03981 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 11:34:39 +1300 Received: from phaeton.ihug.co.nz (p11-max39.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.106.139]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA10844 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 11:27:49 +1300 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19981020112412.007b0270@pop.ihug.co.nz> X-Sender: phaeton@pop.ihug.co.nz X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 11:24:12 +1300 Subject: Re: Guild Ego Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: Keith Smith To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >Nobody seems to have mentioned the fact that it was the Guild who helped >the current Duke to power back in '84 AP. This was after the last duke, in >conjunction with the then Guild Necromancer, attempted to take over the >Guild. (This included the said Necro supplying a party with Frozen Doom >investeds, with a range of _self_ !). Maybe because no one, especially the newer players, have heard of it. Is it possible for someone to write an article about the history of the Guild? I'd certainly be interested in more details, especially on the formation. An article for the Seagate Times maybe? Keith (phaeton@ihug.co.nz) Keith ( -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 20 11:56:28 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id LAA04035; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 11:56:28 +1300 Received: from smtp.worley.co.nz (smtp.worley.co.nz [202.36.210.250]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id LAA04026 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 11:56:26 +1300 Received: by smtp.worley.co.nz(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.1 (569.2 2-6-1998)) id 4C2566A2.0082B46A ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 11:47:38 +1200 X-Lotus-FromDomain: WORLEY CONSULTANTS Message-ID: <4C2566A2.00822042.00@smtp.worley.co.nz> Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 11:49:54 +1200 Subject: Re: One spell wonders Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline From: amtennant@worley.co.nz To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >>I don't like restrictions on character generation\advancement >Several people have stated that they do not want to introduce any >restrictions on ranking. However, we already have many restrictions, yet I >have seen no effort by anyone to remove them (eg cannot rank >characteristics more than once per EP award, This isn't usually a problem. It's usually hard enough to convince yourself that the 5000 ep is worth that extra point of MD. >cannot rank Talents more than once a month, I am going to HAVE to read the new version of the rules..... When did 1 rank per week on adventure go? >cannot rank skills and spells at the same time, I always thought that this was a weird one. I wouldn't mind seeing this one go. >cannot go to Rank 8,9,or 10 in a skill without some special action This one doesn't come up that much until your pretty tough and is a good thing requiring a bit of definition of a character's skill. >cannot know more spells less than rank 6 than your MA, This one seldom comes up or is a problem. >cannot learn Assassin from the Guild, This a reasonable "real world" kind of restriction and is easily circumvented through the use of "books" or other adventurers. >cannot learn certain spells from the Guild Again, reasonable world restrictions. The Guild doesn't really want to be seen selling spells for creating vaste plagues to sweep across the world. :) >cannot rank Warrior without heaps of virtually useless Weapon ranks, This is a good example of a badly written skill which is ( hopefully ) going to change in future. >totally arbitrary costs on learning spells, etc. That's not a restriction on ranking per se. You can always borrow money. It's another world thing. >>It seems like you're a voice in the wilderness here, Bart. >>Perhaps this one should just die a quiet, lonely death. >He is not a lone voice. Several people (myself included) have agreed with >Bart in our posts. OK, he's not alone. But I think enough people are strongly opposed to this idea that it's probably not worth continuing with it. Show of hands, anyone? L8R, Adam. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 20 12:16:13 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id MAA04079; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 12:16:13 +1300 Received: from kcbbs.gen.nz (kcbbs.gen.nz [202.14.102.1]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id MAA04068 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 12:16:12 +1300 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by kcbbs.gen.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA27929 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 12:06:35 +1300 (NZDT) Message-ID: <362BC3C9.4D4F3AC9@games.co.nz> Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 11:57:13 +1300 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Guild Ego Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Jono Bean To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Keith Smith wrote: > >Nobody seems to have mentioned the fact that it was the Guild who helped > >the current Duke to power back in '84 AP. This was after the last duke, in > >conjunction with the then Guild Necromancer, attempted to take over the > >Guild. (This included the said Necro supplying a party with Frozen Doom > >investeds, with a range of _self_ !). > > Maybe because no one, especially the newer players, have heard of it. > > Is it possible for someone to write an article about the history of the > Guild? I'd certainly be interested in more details, especially on the > formation. An article for the Seagate Times maybe? > > Keith This is a good point. Maybe we should all put fingers to keyboard and write up afew bits that you think could be of interest. They could cover everything from storys to legends, history etc.. and I and Martin would be happy to put it all together and put it out as a Acrobat (PDF) document for player and GMs alike. Be done before: I've asked people (GMs) to write up "stuff of interest" for the campaign before and with no result. I am left feeling from the lack of willing writes - that people (GMs and Players) don't realy care about the campaign and are happy to continue with a "Days of Our Lives" campaign and not one with a real flavour and feel to it like "Babylon 5" say. We would be editing the information and stories into differant sections so that it all hangs together. What do people think? Jono -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 20 12:34:26 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id MAA04114; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 12:34:26 +1300 Received: from mail.iconz.co.nz (mail.iconz.co.nz [202.14.100.36]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id MAA04103 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 12:34:25 +1300 Received: from mandos (e0.firewall.ak.iconz.net.nz [202.14.100.208]) by mail.iconz.co.nz (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA014460908839653 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 12:27:33 +1300 (NZDT) Message-ID: <009801bdfbb7$ed2bcea0$1564a8c0@mandos.ICONZ> Subject: Re: EP Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 12:26:38 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 From: "Mandos Mitchinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >You are begging the question, George. You are assuming that your personal >preference is something that all right-thinking roleplayers would choose. >Of course it's a good thing to help players to enjoy themselves. I >seriously doubt that this helps anyone. I think it just implicitly states >that the only way to really roleplay is to do so at low-level and spurn the >High level games. >And, frankly, that kind of condescending help would not encourage me to >play the game again. I'd like to think that I'm completely capable of >determining what I wanted for my character. If increasing the EP amounts given out will increase the enjoyment of the Game why do we not follow the progression of increasing the EP the the point where enough is availabler for you to do anything. At which point we may as well do away with EP and simply rank things based on time and interest. Limitation inspires thought, deprivation prompt disire. The more thought and disire to improve that a player has, the greater the levels of thought and imagination go into the character. More thought that goes into the character, theoretically the better the resulting roleplaying. Of course giving the players their every whim without any stuggle also has it's merits :-) Mandos /s -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 20 12:39:45 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id MAA04144; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 12:39:45 +1300 Received: from mail.iconz.co.nz (mail.iconz.co.nz [202.14.100.36]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id MAA04133 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 12:39:45 +1300 Received: from mandos (e0.firewall.ak.iconz.net.nz [202.14.100.208]) by mail.iconz.co.nz (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA036490908839974 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 12:32:54 +1300 (NZDT) Message-ID: <009d01bdfbb8$ac3bdb00$1564a8c0@mandos.ICONZ> Subject: Re: EP Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 12:32:00 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 From: "Mandos Mitchinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >If they have another character that's suitable, that's fine, there is no >problem. If they don't have another character, then, they're out of luck. >As a DM, you are moderating the game for the enjoyment of the players, and >if a player's character will make that game less enjoyable, then I don't >see what alternative you have. I personally cannot see a situation whereby the presence of a character could ruin an adventure. Change it maybe, make it easier or harder. But basically roleplaying is a social event and the enjoyment for me comes from the interaction between characters and each other, or characters and the world. Every player has a brain and a mouth with which they can join in and contribute. If a character has no direct means of helping in a fight there are support and planning roles available. The fun that is had on a game is more determined by the social mores of the players than the competance of the party. If players do not get on then the game will not be plesant. I have played and GM'ed a number of games with disparate levels and they have all been a lot of fun because the players got on well and enjoyed the social event. Mandos /s -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 20 12:44:28 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id MAA04176; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 12:44:28 +1300 Received: from mail.iconz.co.nz (mail.iconz.co.nz [202.14.100.36]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id MAA04165 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 12:44:28 +1300 Received: from mandos (e0.firewall.ak.iconz.net.nz [202.14.100.208]) by mail.iconz.co.nz (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA055930908840257 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 12:37:37 +1300 (NZDT) Message-ID: <00a601bdfbb9$55106020$1564a8c0@mandos.ICONZ> Subject: Re: EP :The real problem. Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 12:36:43 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 From: "Mandos Mitchinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >Huh? Because the award leaves one DM's game, and moves to another DM's >game, it becomes a player thing...What bottle did that come out of? When you give out EP, it has no effect on your game. It impacts the GM in the next game. By which time it is an incorperated part of the character on your game. EP never effects the GM. This is a little difficult to explain....if anyone else understands what I am trying to say could they give explaining it a try :-0) Mandos /s -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 20 12:47:16 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id MAA04205; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 12:47:16 +1300 Received: from gate.datacom.co.nz (gate.datacom.co.nz [202.27.76.67]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id MAA04191 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 12:45:56 +1300 Received: from dslak3.dslak.co.nz ([192.203.216.7]) by gate.datacom.co.nz (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id MAA19596 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 12:39:03 +1300 (NZDT) Received: by dslak3.dslak.co.nz with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52) id <01BDFC26.DB1EAF60@dslak3.dslak.co.nz>; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 00:40:45 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Sale Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 00:39:41 +0100 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 From: Noel Livingston {DSL AK} To: dq-pub@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq-pub@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq-pub@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Excellent, Ned wanders off and you hear three sharp screams as his essence is drawn out from the next room. Baron Sadar gets Three Shiny New Luck amulets ( I assume Baron Sadar arranged everything for Fizzgig to do this ) Ned gets sixty thousand silver pennies, looses 3 endurance Fizzgig Gets whatever baron sadar pays him -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 20 12:51:23 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id MAA04250; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 12:51:23 +1300 Received: from peace.com (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id MAA04239 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 12:51:16 +1300 Received: via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/pcnz2.7) id MAA29601; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 12:44:26 +1300 Message-ID: <362BCFED.EC0F91D4@peace.com> Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 12:49:01 +1300 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5b2 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Silver Mining vs Seagate Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Michael Woodhams wrote: > !!!! > Alusia has steam engines?!?!?! Sort of... though they are by no means common... I would go for "very rare". :) The Dwarves of the Superstition Mountains use steam-powered "tractors" in thier mines to pull ore-carts and also have emplaced steam-cannons to defend themselves. These have existed in DQ for longer than I have been playing, so at least since 1985. There is a half-magical/half-steam powered paddle boat on the Gracht River. Mortimer's 30 foot experimental-but-most-of-the-major-snags-are-worked-out steam-yacht the "Esmerelda" may be viewed in Seagate harbour -- rides around the bay on Reapsdays 1sp for Adults, 1cf for Children. *Toot* *Toot* :) Excerpt from Mechanician: EXPERIMENTAL ENGINEERING: an in-depth knowledge of the experimental area. This ability may be learnt any number of times with different experimental areas. This ability may first be learnt when acquiring Rank 8. Experimental engineering areas may include: Aeronautics, Steam, Geo-thermal, Gases, Explosions, Perpetual Motion, Vacuum, Sub-marine, and Advanced versions of any other Mechanician ability they already possess. --- Cheers, Martin -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 20 12:53:45 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id MAA04279; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 12:53:45 +1300 Received: from mail.iconz.co.nz (mail.iconz.co.nz [202.14.100.36]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id MAA04269 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 12:53:44 +1300 Received: from mandos (e0.firewall.ak.iconz.net.nz [202.14.100.208]) by mail.iconz.co.nz (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA089700908840807 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 12:46:47 +1300 (NZDT) Message-ID: <00bf01bdfbba$9da70720$1564a8c0@mandos.ICONZ> Subject: Re: Society and Magic Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 12:45:52 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 From: "Mandos Mitchinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >The question is not what it should be but what do we want. >Once we decide what we want we'll work out why things are that way. Or >don't decide, let characters draw their own conclusions. > >What do I want? .... Fantasy Look and Feel >This is the sanitized or holywoodised version of medieval society, no >disease ridden people dying in the streets, no open sewers down the >middle of the street. Lots of people happily tilling the earth, >cleanish towns and cities, beggars by choice rather than desperation. >Happy people who occasionally get oppressed, butchered, enslaved, etc by >ruthless overlords and evil tyrants - who then have a bad time of it >when sufficiently tough adventurers come along. I like to have a mixture of nice and nasty, some places slimy pits of dispair and anguish, others to be cheerful villages full of happy peasents. Some happy fishing ports and other places with bodies dumped into the harbour. I like to see believable diversity, a range of socio-economic area's. I would like to see us work together to define where the area's are it would be good. Mandos -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 20 12:55:33 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id MAA04306; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 12:55:33 +1300 Received: from mail.iconz.co.nz (mail.iconz.co.nz [202.14.100.36]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id MAA04295 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 12:55:32 +1300 Received: from mandos (e0.firewall.ak.iconz.net.nz [202.14.100.208]) by mail.iconz.co.nz (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA097560908840920 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 12:48:41 +1300 (NZDT) Message-ID: <00cc01bdfbba$e0ac02a0$1564a8c0@mandos.ICONZ> Subject: Re: EP Awards Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 12:47:46 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 From: "Mandos Mitchinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >>I agree. Too much EP is being given out. Perhaps the numbers in the EP >>award document need looking at. >> >>I think maybe the 2/3 amount is a little too harsh. Probably 3/4 would do. > >I agree. Just a message for those who would be interested in seeing the EP rewards drop. What was the feeling on the numbers I mentioned earlier? Ie 300 turning up EP and 400 for the two roleplaying catagories? Mandos /s -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 20 13:10:06 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id NAA04352; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:10:06 +1300 Received: from fclaklmr01.fcl.co.nz ([203.98.14.148] (may be forged)) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id NAA04340 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:10:04 +1300 Received: from falaklnt000.falum.co.nz ([10.8.1.20]) by fclaklmr01.fcl.co.nz (Post.Office MTA v3.5.1 release 219 ID# 0-0U10L2S100) with SMTP id nz ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:02:42 +1300 Received: by falaklnt000.falum.co.nz with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5) id <01BDFC2A.43EF63B0@falaklnt000.falum.co.nz>; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:05:09 +1300 Message-ID: Subject: RE: Sale Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:05:03 +1300 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Andrew Withy (FAL AKL)" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. So players can now sell experience points to other players for sp. Is this desirable? My feeling is that this is wrong and should not be allowed, but then I always jump to extremes. Does anyone else care? Andrew >---------- >Excellent, Ned wanders off and you hear three sharp screams as his >essence is drawn out from the next room. > >Baron Saydar gets ... [eternal torment] > >Ned gets sixty thousand silver pennies, loses 3 endurance > -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 20 13:16:48 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id NAA04408; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:16:48 +1300 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (root@tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id NAA04397 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:16:47 +1300 Received: from [206.18.104.212] (p20-max32.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.104.212]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA00875 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:09:55 +1300 Message-Id: <199810200009.NAA00875@smtp1.ihug.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:10:31 +1300 Subject: Re: Guild Ego From: flamis@pop.ihug.co.nz (Jacqui Smith) To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >Given a population of 13000 in Seagate, And from whence doest thou obtain this figure? Methinks the population of Seagate is more likely but a few thousand... Jacqui -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 20 13:10:58 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id NAA04376; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:10:58 +1300 Received: from peace.com (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id NAA04365 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:10:57 +1300 Received: via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/pcnz2.7) id NAA00440; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:04:08 +1300 Message-ID: <362BD48A.2B15F290@peace.com> Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:08:42 +1300 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5b2 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Guild Ego Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Adam wrote: > 250,000 in "the surrounding countryside" seems a little on the high side. Jim Arona wrote: > The standard division of burghers to peasants, I believe, is about > 20:1...London was supposed to have had an urban population of about 25,000, > under the reign (such as it was) of Stephen...Which meant it needed the > support of something like 500,000 peasants. But, then it's surrounding > countryside was pretty massive... Noel is also using a 20:1 ratio for rural to urban pop. IMHO, this is more appropriate for an early medieval model -- such as the 12th C reign of Stephen that Jim mentioned -- than the one that I have seen most often evidenced in DQ. Trying to pin down an historically analogous time to Alusia is a bit like wrestling a greased pig, but given the amount and type of exploration, shipping, literacy, style of weapons and armour, etc,etc, etc... that is around, I have been left with a best guess of around 1500 AD...ish. Using that as a basis, we'd be looking at more like a 10:1 in most areas. Seagate, being a river port, may also be a bit outside the norm, in that many of its fisher-folk probably live in the low-rent district, but do live in town, meaning that a lower level of rural producer is required. If as Brent said, Carzala is a bread-basket area, and being in the Sweetwater delta that would seem sensible, then the bushels per acre being cropped may be very high, and this in turn may allow a lower rural percentage. Cheers, Martin -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 20 13:17:24 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id NAA04430; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:17:24 +1300 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (root@tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id NAA04421 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:17:23 +1300 Received: from [206.18.104.212] (p20-max32.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.104.212]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA00917 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:10:28 +1300 Message-Id: <199810200010.NAA00917@smtp1.ihug.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:11:03 +1300 Subject: Re: Top Out Syndrome? From: flamis@pop.ihug.co.nz (Jacqui Smith) To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >After 10 years of play I now have a character with all her stats at max; >all the 'outdoors' skills at max (or nearly), all her weapons (about 6) at >max, and not a hell of a lot to do with any additional ep. Rosemary, I'm trying to put myself in your position and consider what that ep could go on, what restrictions exist in the system to stop Amelia developing further... We could: 1) Lift the limits on maximum stats - perhaps removing the base+5 restriction in a systematic way, doubling the cost for the next 5 points, triping for the next five, etc... 2) Lift the maximum rank limits on weapons and skills. 3) Invent new things for characters, especially non-mage,s to spend ep on. I don't see any of these possibilities being entirely desirable! The most effective anti-topout technique I've seen is GMs giving out unique rankable abilities with high EMs. Helps to individualise characters as well. >I have no problem with her topping out at and only being mid-level, that's >a side effect of being a specialized character. But it would be nice to >have something to do with that ep. That's supposed to be our reward after >all. You still enjoy playing Amelia, correct? So does the fact that she has "topped-out" really matter? She's as good as she can get at what she does, and that has to be a neat thing to play. Jacqui -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 20 13:24:08 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id NAA04474; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:24:08 +1300 Received: from date.palm.cri.nz (date.palm.cri.nz [161.66.1.20]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id NAA04465 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:24:06 +1300 Received: from mail1.marc.cri.nz (mail1.marc.cri.nz [161.29.1.1]) by date.palm.cri.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA09091 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:08:48 +1300 (NZDT) Received: from hra1.marc.cri.nz (unverified [161.29.1.5]) by mail1.marc.cri.nz (Dr Solomon's SMTPRS 2.0.15) with ESMTP id ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:14:40 +1300 Message-Id: Received: from HRA1/SpoolDir by hra1.marc.cri.nz (Mercury 1.31); 20 Oct 98 13:17:48 GMT+12 Received: from SpoolDir by HRA1 (Mercury 1.31); 20 Oct 98 13:17:22 GMT+12 Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:17:21 GMT+1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Guild Ego X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01b) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT From: "Bart Janssen" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Date sent: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 11:04:41 +1300 Subject: Re: Guild Ego From: Keith Smith To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Send reply to: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > > >> Given a population of 13000 in Seagate, the surrounding countryside if > >> self suffienent in food would have a peasant population > > > >Where does this 13000 come from? That is a huge city in medieval terms, > >equivalent to Paris or Florence at their height. Carzala is a poky nowhere on > >the frontier. > > Good point. No it's an aweful comparison > I see Carzala as being somewhat comparable (in certain aspects) to > late-medieval England. Since when did medievil England have healers and mages! > What would the average population density be, in England, at that time? who cares it's not relevant cheers Bart Saying Windows 95 is equal to Macintosh is like finding a potato that looks like Jesus and believing you've witnessed the second coming. -- Guy Kawasaki Bart Janssen Hort+Research Private Bag 92169 Auckland New Zealand ph 64 9 8154200 x 7279 fax 64 9 8154201 -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 20 13:25:59 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id NAA04504; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:25:59 +1300 Received: from smtp.worley.co.nz (smtp.worley.co.nz [202.36.210.250]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id NAA04494 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:25:57 +1300 Received: by smtp.worley.co.nz(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.1 (569.2 2-6-1998)) id 4C2566A3.000710AA ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:17:10 +1200 X-Lotus-FromDomain: WORLEY CONSULTANTS Message-ID: <4C2566A3.0006FA2D.00@smtp.worley.co.nz> Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:19:28 +1200 Subject: RE: Sale Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline From: amtennant@worley.co.nz To: dq-pub@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq-pub@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq-pub@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >So players can now sell experience points to other players for sp. Is >this desirable? >My feeling is that this is wrong and should not be allowed, but then I >always jump to extremes. Does anyone else care? [Fizzgig] Unfortunately my charms don't work like that. You have to sacrifice the EN yourself. I think it's yucky using other peoples life for that sort of thing. Ooh, ick. And then there's the fact that he's a stinky Orc too. I can always charge him triple cost.... Or get him to accept a Geas to be nice to Hobbits. Ah yes, much better idea. See ya, Fizzi. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 20 13:28:57 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id NAA04536; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:28:57 +1300 Received: from cyclops.xtra.co.nz (cyclops.xtra.co.nz [202.27.184.96]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id NAA04527 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:28:56 +1300 Received: from AKLNOTES.wilsonandhorton.co.nz ([203.99.71.10]) by cyclops.xtra.co.nz (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id NAA19070 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:21:35 +1300 (NZDT) Received: by AKLNOTES.wilsonandhorton.co.nz(Lotus SMTP MTA v1.2 (600.1 3-26-1998)) id CC2566A3.00023BF0 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:24:24 +1300 X-Lotus-FromDomain: NZHERALD Message-ID: Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:24:22 +1300 Subject: Re: For Sale Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline From: Dean_Ellis@wilsonandhorton.co.nz To: dq-pub@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq-pub@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq-pub@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. One would presume that Ned has some way of transferring these EN points to another person or an object, yes? Description of such would be useful as this is not a normal ability. Cheers Noel Livingston {DSL AK} on 19/10/98 05:53:02 PM Please respond to dq-pub@dq.sf.org.nz To: dq-pub@dq.sf.org.nz cc: (bcc: Dean Ellis/IT/NZHERALD/NZ) Subject: For Sale For Sale Notice on pub wall. Three Points of endurance. Suitable for making into fizzgig amultets for big tough people. Cost 20,000 pennies each point. I sacrifce the endurance, you get the power, I get the money. Contact Ned Tanner, Master Healer at his townhouse. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 20 13:31:13 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id NAA04564; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:31:13 +1300 Received: from fclaklmr01.fcl.co.nz ([203.98.14.148] (may be forged)) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id NAA04553 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:31:11 +1300 Received: from falaklnt000.falum.co.nz ([10.8.1.20]) by fclaklmr01.fcl.co.nz (Post.Office MTA v3.5.1 release 219 ID# 0-0U10L2S100) with SMTP id nz ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:23:48 +1300 Received: by falaklnt000.falum.co.nz with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5) id <01BDFC2D.3712AAA0@falaklnt000.falum.co.nz>; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:26:16 +1300 Message-ID: Subject: RE: Sale Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:26:12 +1300 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Andrew Withy (FAL AKL)" To: dq-pub@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq-pub@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq-pub@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. So Saydar paid 240 guineas to watch Ned drain himself, which Ned needed to keep his harem in comfort. That, I understand - Necromancers have expensive hobbies... >---------- >[Fizzgig] > >Unfortunately my charms don't work like that. > >You have to sacrifice the EN yourself. >I think it's yucky using other peoples life for that sort of thing. >Ooh, ick. > >And then there's the fact that he's a stinky Orc too. > >I can always charge him triple cost.... > >Or get him to accept a Geas to be nice to Hobbits. Ah yes, much better >idea. > >See ya, >Fizzi. > -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 20 13:37:42 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id NAA04603; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:37:42 +1300 Received: from peace.com (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id NAA04590 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:37:41 +1300 Received: via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/pcnz2.7) id NAA01744; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:30:50 +1300 Message-ID: <362BDACD.E06C0EDF@peace.com> Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:35:25 +1300 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5b2 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Guild Ego Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Bart Janssen wrote: > ...unless you postulate > that mages and healers are very rare (unlikely given the experience of > guild members) then patterns of life are very very different from our own > history and that is most obvious in cities, warfare and armies. Using the employment/skill patterns of the Guild as a guideline is spurious in the extreme. It would be like taking a survey of professions at... well, to use an example with you you are familiar, at a genetics conference and then coming to the statistical conclusion that a huge percentage of the world's population are molecular biologists. Even just using the professions of the people with whom guildmembers interact will not yield useful statistical data. I am sure that as a scientist, you would find that you intereact with many more scientists (as a percentage of people with who you interact) than they exist as a percentage of the population at large. Magic using Guildmembers spend a lot of time interacting with magic using bad-guys because that is often the only way with which they may defeated. Employers who could find another, cheaper, solution to their problem don't arrive cap-and-money-bag in hand at the Guild. For myself, I use about 1:1000 as the base number of mages in a population, with an uneven distribution. Whilst some mages are rural -- I usually have 1 Witch per 3 largish villages -- many congregate in urban/educated areas . Others prefer dark, gothic towers in wilderness areas, and these are the one with whom adventurers most often interact. :) Cheers, Martin -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 20 13:41:38 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id NAA04650; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:41:38 +1300 Received: from date.palm.cri.nz (date.palm.cri.nz [161.66.1.20]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id NAA04640 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:41:37 +1300 Received: from mail1.marc.cri.nz (mail1.marc.cri.nz [161.29.1.1]) by date.palm.cri.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA09340 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:26:15 +1300 (NZDT) Received: from hra1.marc.cri.nz (unverified [161.29.1.5]) by mail1.marc.cri.nz (Dr Solomon's SMTPRS 2.0.15) with ESMTP id ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:32:06 +1300 Message-Id: Received: from HRA1/SpoolDir by hra1.marc.cri.nz (Mercury 1.31); 20 Oct 98 13:35:14 GMT+12 Received: from SpoolDir by HRA1 (Mercury 1.31); 20 Oct 98 13:34:59 GMT+12 Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:34:56 GMT+1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Top Out Syndrome? X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01b) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT From: "Bart Janssen" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Jaqui wrote > Rosemary, I'm trying to put myself in your position and consider what that > ep could go on, what restrictions exist in the system to stop Amelia > developing further... > > We could: > 1) Lift the limits on maximum stats - perhaps removing the base+5 > restriction in a systematic way, doubling the cost for the next 5 points, > triping for the next five, etc... With the removal of 26 AG advantages there is no longer any real reason to put an absolute top limit on a stat providing the cost increases similar to an ep mulitple. (ie 6th point costs 10 000, 7th costs 15 000). There are some characters who would do it. > 2) Lift the maximum rank limits on weapons and skills. Again providing the ep costs increase appropriately there is no real mechanical reason why not. Especially after the changes to riposte in combat. Skill could have some minor problems but hey at rank 9 thief Arthur already has over 200% chance of climbing successfully so who cares. > 3) Invent new things for characters, especially non-mage,s to spend ep on. Oooo no yuk, give fighters more cool things to do, no we couldn't possible do that, mages are the only real people anyway > I don't see any of these possibilities being entirely desirable! I, on the other hand see the exact opposite. > The most effective anti-topout technique I've seen is GMs giving out unique > rankable abilities with high EMs. Helps to individualise characters as > well. In fact again I see the opposite. In almost every case every "unique" ability I've seen has been so poorly thought out that it becomes a nightmare for all subsequent GMs. And that include my own special abilities. When a single GM lets a charcater step outside the rules they almost always get it holelessly wrong. > >I have no problem with her topping out at and only being mid-level, that's > >a side effect of being a specialized character. But it would be nice to > >have something to do with that ep. That's supposed to be our reward after > >all. > > You still enjoy playing Amelia, correct? So does the fact that she has > "topped-out" really matter? She's as good as she can get at what she does, > and that has to be a neat thing to play. But considerably more fun could be had if the character could go on and become even better at their speciality. Sorry to disagree so completely and utterly with you on this Jacqui cheers Bart Saying Windows 95 is equal to Macintosh is like finding a potato that looks like Jesus and believing you've witnessed the second coming. -- Guy Kawasaki Bart Janssen Hort+Research Private Bag 92169 Auckland New Zealand ph 64 9 8154200 x 7279 fax 64 9 8154201 -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 20 13:42:05 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id NAA04671; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:42:05 +1300 Received: from mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (mailhost.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.1.4]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id NAA04661 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:42:04 +1300 Received: from sci4 (lbr-122-42.lbrsc.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.122.42]) by mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (8.9.1/8.9.1/8.9.1-ua) with SMTP id NAA11803 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:35:13 +1300 (NZDT) Message-Id: <199810200035.NAA11803@mailhost.auckland.ac.nz> Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:38:24 +0000 Subject: Population X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) From: "Michael Parkinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-to: m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Dear all, re Seagate > >Where does this 13000 come from? That is a huge city in medieval terms, > >equivalent to Paris or Florence at their height. Carzala is a poky nowhere on > >the frontier. the population had been historically established at 8,000 - 10,000 (directly, or indirectly from DQ text "Frontiers of Alusia", I believe) However, one effect of The Wars in the baronies was an influx of refugees (some 4,000 net gain), primarily towns-folk and dispossessed gentry orvillagers who enough resources to make it alive to Seagate. They chose our fair city (any town with a duke should be entitled to consider itself a city) because Seagate was perceived to be 1. a semi-neutral place which was not politically motivated to join any side. 2. a quasi-neutral place which would not be a direct or colateral target of either side. 3. a place where food could be bought at comparatively modest prices 4. strong enough to avoid the anarchic opportunists (bandits, pirates) plaguing town further north. 5. the gateway to quieter realms to the South & South-east Despite the initial crowding and temporary price rises that accompanied this influx; Seagate gained greatly -- because these refugees had sufficient wealth to contribute to the town's economy and fund the physical and infrastructural expansion required. Moreover, many of the refugees had their [comparative] wealth because they had skills which had been profitably employed in their homelands. Frankly we may not have been a "Florence" in the past, but now Seagate *does* have the resources to Flourish and become a major city when compared to many of the more established cities in the Baronies. > I see Carzala as being somewhat comparable (in certain aspects) to > late-medieval England. > > What would the average population density be, in England, at that time? > > Keith > (phaeton@ihug.co.nz) > > > > -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- > Michael Parkinson Assistant Librarian Email: m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz Science Library Phone: (9) 3737 599 x 5858 University of Auckland Fax: (9) 3082 304 -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 20 13:37:42 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id NAA04611; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:37:42 +1300 Received: from gate.datacom.co.nz (gate.datacom.co.nz [202.27.76.67]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id NAA04591 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:37:41 +1300 Received: from dslak3.dslak.co.nz ([192.203.216.7]) by gate.datacom.co.nz (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id NAA20817 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:30:49 +1300 (NZDT) Received: by dslak3.dslak.co.nz with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52) id <01BDFC2E.172C0D20@dslak3.dslak.co.nz>; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 01:32:32 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: drat !!, what about bound earth, is that permanent death or not ? Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 01:32:07 +0100 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 From: Noel Livingston {DSL AK} To: dq-pub@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq-pub@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq-pub@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 20 13:48:56 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id NAA04726; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:48:56 +1300 Received: from peace.com (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id NAA04715 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:48:55 +1300 Received: via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/pcnz2.7) id NAA02459; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:42:05 +1300 Message-ID: <362BDD70.1C29E3D5@peace.com> Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:46:40 +1300 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5b2 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Guild Ego Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Bart Janssen wrote: > > >Where does this 13000 come from? That is a huge city in medieval terms, > > >equivalent to Paris or Florence at their height. Carzala is a poky nowhere on > > >the frontier. > > > > Good point. > > No it's an aweful comparison > > > I see Carzala as being somewhat comparable (in certain aspects) to > > late-medieval England. > > Since when did medievil England have healers and mages! > > > What would the average population density be, in England, at that time? > > who cares it's not relevant I see it as highly desirable to be able to ground most of Alusia in some historical basis. This make other research and extrapolation possible. Otherwise it will require the wholesale creation of a non-historical world -- one in which any knowledge that players possess will have to be relearned. I have played in this sort of world (Tekumel... and to a lesser degree RQ) and it _can _ be a lot of fun... however it is a lot more work for both the players and the GM. Substantial amounts of background, explanation, history, and support material has to be created before it can be used. Creating fantasy worlds that differ wildly from medieval analogs may be fun for serious authors but we have a hard enough job getting the documentation and explanation that we get currently, and we already have major consistency/continuity problems. Fantasy worlds with magic and healing abilities that are also pseudo-historical abound in literature -- surely we have only to find an explanation that allows us to achieve this. Cheers, Martin -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 20 13:51:37 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id NAA04835; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:51:37 +1300 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (root@tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id NAA04789 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:51:31 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p11-max1.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.97.11]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA24393 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:44:36 +1300 Message-Id: <199810200044.NAA24393@smtp2.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: Jim's reply to Andrew Withy Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:12:34 +1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. ---------- > From: Brent & Sally > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Subject: Re: Jim's reply to Andrew Withy > Date: Wednesday, October 21, 1998 12:15 AM > > > At 02:59 AM 20/10/98 +1300, Jim Arona wrote: > >Andrew Withy wrote : > >> This is at least partially true (see spiel above). However, I don't > >> think that myself, Adam and George all have the same approach to DQ. > >> When disparate people agree, perhaps there is a wider issue than mere > >> personality. > > > >I, personally, think you three are remarkably similar, actually, Andrew. > >You all three seem to approach roleplaying in the same way, I would have > >said. > > Having played with (and been GM'd by) Andrew and Adam, I say they are > extremely different role-players. > > >But, apparently, only your kind of fun, Andrew. > > Or, not your kind of fun, Jim ? > > > Too much spare time would be my guess. > > (Like people who reply to virtually every post :-). Okay, Brent. Here's some for you. 1) I work nights, and often weekends. I don't get to see that many people any more, unless I make a special effort. This is one of my few remaining forms of human contact, such as it is. 2) I have little respect for your opinions, you seem to have an unusual grasp on roleplaying games, which by itself, is fine. Then, however, you seem to take an holier than thou approach, and say that some kinds of roleplaying are good roleplaying, and other kinds of roleplaying are bad, immature roleplaying. Frankly, Brent, how you justify this is beyond me. 3) I think Adam, Andrew and George are similar, because their character's look at the rules as the world, first, and work backwards from that. At least, they seem to, to me. Other players think of the world, and work back to the rules. I do, for example. I don't think there's anything wrong with their approach. I do think it makes them similar. 4) A move such as being suggested limits a variety of ways of developing a character. If things were left the way they are, then the players still have the options they want. I am not the one suggesting reduced options, here. Kindly do not imply that I am. Jim. Bloody annoyed. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 20 13:51:27 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id NAA04778; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:51:27 +1300 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (root@tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id NAA04760 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:51:26 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p11-max1.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.97.11]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA24387 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:44:35 +1300 Message-Id: <199810200044.NAA24387@smtp2.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: Guild Ego Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:01:57 +1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. ---------- > From: Brent & Sally > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Subject: Re: Guild Ego > Date: Tuesday, October 20, 1998 10:37 PM > > > At 12:32 AM 20/10/98 +1300, Jim Arona wrote: > > >> If most of the magic is controlled by the > >> guild, then it's importance is paramount. IMO the essence of the guild is > >> the high level of magic (not only highly ranked spells, but magic items and > >> unique abilities) which is used by its members. > > > >If I were the Duke, I'd consider the Guild as being of value at all ONLY if > >it owed me some service. Otherwise, I'd be likely to think of it as a > >potential threat. Notice, however, that I said potential. > > Nobody seems to have mentioned the fact that it was the Guild who helped > the current Duke to power back in '84 AP. This was after the last duke, in > conjunction with the then Guild Necromancer, attempted to take over the > Guild. (This included the said Necro supplying a party with Frozen Doom > investeds, with a range of _self_ !). > > Cheers, > Brent. Which is even more grist to that particular mill...The Guild has a history of housing threats to the throne... Jim. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 20 13:51:26 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id NAA04759; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:51:26 +1300 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (root@tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id NAA04747 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:51:24 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p11-max1.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.97.11]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA24384 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:44:33 +1300 Message-Id: <199810200044.NAA24384@smtp2.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: Society and Magic Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 12:59:22 +1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. ---------- > From: Stephen Martin > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Subject: Society and Magic > Date: Tuesday, October 20, 1998 11:12 AM > > > The question is not what it should be but what do we want. > Once we decide what we want we'll work out why things are that way. Or > don't decide, let characters draw their own conclusions. > > What do I want? .... Fantasy Look and Feel > This is the sanitized or holywoodised version of medieval society, no > disease ridden people dying in the streets, no open sewers down the > middle of the street. Lots of people happily tilling the earth, > cleanish towns and cities, beggars by choice rather than desperation. > Happy people who occasionally get oppressed, butchered, enslaved, etc by > ruthless overlords and evil tyrants - who then have a bad time of it > when sufficiently tough adventurers come along. > Realistic? I think NOT! But I don't play DQ to get depressed about how > imaginary worlds are as bad or worse than the real one, I play to have > fun, to be a hero that can make a difference - or an aspiring tyrant :). > Pseudo-realism is good for suspension of disbelief, but I don't want my > nose rubbed in squalor, and when I portray a world to players I don't > enjoy creating squalid pits or despair. Hives of scum and villany - > yes, but dives of despair and suffering - no. That is entirely your choice, Stephen, and you're entitled to make it. I like the fact that the world is not clean, and that life for a peasant is not the bucolic fantasy you might see in a Touchstone Productions movie. I happen to feel there is more scope for drama, this way...And that the lack of realism in your preferred medium interferes with the players' identification with the genre. But, hey, if that's what you want, so be it. Jim. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 20 13:51:41 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id NAA04909; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:51:41 +1300 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (root@tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id NAA04871 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:51:38 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p11-max1.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.97.11]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA24410 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:44:41 +1300 Message-Id: <199810200044.NAA24410@smtp2.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: EP Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:34:03 +1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. ---------- > From: Mandos Mitchinson > > If increasing the EP amounts given out will increase the enjoyment of the > Game why do we not follow the progression of increasing the EP the the point > where enough is availabler for you to do anything. At which point we may as > well do away with EP and simply rank things based on time and interest. I never suggested we should award more xp. I believe the xp awards are about right. I don't want to see them go up. I don't want to see them go down. > > Limitation inspires thought, deprivation prompt disire. The more thought and > disire to improve that a player has, the greater the levels of thought and > imagination go into the character. More thought that goes into the > character, theoretically the better the resulting roleplaying. This is a good point. It is worth thinking about. > > Of course giving the players their every whim without any stuggle also has > it's merits :-) I'd like to know what, George. Jim. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 20 13:51:38 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id NAA04859; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:51:38 +1300 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (root@tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id NAA04794 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:51:34 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p11-max1.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.97.11]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA24416 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:44:43 +1300 Message-Id: <199810200044.NAA24416@smtp2.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: EP Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:36:37 +1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. ---------- > From: Mandos Mitchinson > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Subject: Re: EP > Date: Tuesday, October 20, 1998 12:32 PM > > > > >If they have another character that's suitable, that's fine, there is no > >problem. If they don't have another character, then, they're out of luck. > >As a DM, you are moderating the game for the enjoyment of the players, and > >if a player's character will make that game less enjoyable, then I don't > >see what alternative you have. > > > I personally cannot see a situation whereby the presence of a character > could ruin an adventure. Change it maybe, make it easier or harder. But > basically roleplaying is a social event and the enjoyment for me comes from > the interaction between characters and each other, or characters and the > world. Every player has a brain and a mouth with which they can join in and > contribute. If a character has no direct means of helping in a fight there > are support and planning roles available. The fun that is had on a game is > more determined by the social mores of the players than the competance of > the party. If players do not get on then the game will not be plesant. > > I have played and GM'ed a number of games with disparate levels and they > have all been a lot of fun because the players got on well and enjoyed the > social event. Well, that's fine for you, George. Other DMs may not have that ability. If they don't, then, clearly, their responsibility is to the players they are providing the game for. Why should their limitations reduce the enjoyment of others? Jim. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 20 13:51:35 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id NAA04809; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:51:35 +1300 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (root@tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id NAA04792 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:51:33 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p11-max1.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.97.11]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA24402 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:44:38 +1300 Message-Id: <199810200044.NAA24402@smtp2.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: Role-playing vs Gaming Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:25:33 +1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. ---------- > From: Brent & Sally > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Subject: Re: Role-playing vs Gaming > Date: Tuesday, October 20, 1998 11:57 PM > > > At 11:10 AM 16/10/98 +1300, Andrew Luxton wrote: > >> Brent wrote : > >>A rule such as this will restrict gamers, but have little effect on > >>role-players. > > > >There is a widely used distinction in DQ between "gamers" and > >"role-players", and there seems to be an implication that the style of play > >from "role-players" is somehow better/ more desirable than that from > >"gamers". I do not agree with the distinction, and believe that it usually > >obfuscates the real issues. > > To explain my use of the terms it is necessary to know a little of my view > of DQ, (and role-playing). For me, much of the satisfaction and long term > enjoyment of a campaign is derived from the portrayal of "realistic" people > interacting with a "realistic" world over a period of time. This allows me > to "pretend" that I am somebody else, in another universe, and to hence > explore morals, ethics and behaviours other than my own. > > >I maintain the position that good role-players can maintain the "suspension > >of disbelief" throughout the game, and are fun to play with (same goes for > >GM's IMO). I don't care how efficiently people have spent their EP. I > >don't care if they have ranked weapons with a high or low base chance, or > >if they have ranked "useless" skills or weapons for flavour purposes. > >These things do not make you a better or poorer role-player. > > I agree. > > >Anyone who crunches the numbers and ranks abilities that are most > >cost-effective is simply following the pressures of the system (which > >represents the DQ world). > > The comment in brackets is the nub of the matter. My use of "Gamer" versus > "Role-Player" above is based on a definition along the lines of : > Gamer - a person who will use the rules as they are written without regard > to the fact that they are attempting (poorly) to represent a realistic world. > Roleplayer - a person that will attempt to make their character as real as > possible in the campaign world, without regard to optimising their > abilities using the game rules. > > >All players do this to a some degree or another. > > (I am definitely more of a gamer than a role-player. I do not tend to > "waste" EP ranking abilities that do not give my character game benefits). > > >Characters which are highly optimised would be ambitious people who are > >aware of the world, and want an edge > > Possibly. This is true only if the rules constrain the optimisation to > that which is "realistic" or appropriate for the campaign. > > >Characters who are optimised (even those specialists) are just as > >believable as those who are not > > I disagree. On what grounds? The Moon is in Sagittarius or something? > > >I don't see how crunching numbers makes you a poorer role-player, and I > >don't see how spending EP/ranking efficiently is any less desirable. These > >just represent the different choices people make. People prefer different > >kinds/styles of role-playing, each of which is equally valid. > > If the number crunching results in the character acting or evolving in a > way that is inconsistant with the campaign world, then I believe that it is > less desirable. If the number-crunching did result in that sort of thing, then clearly it would be bad. You haven't shown, here, how number-crunching leads to that, though.. This is simply circular. Why does it lead to bad role-playing, and why isn't it some other factor? > > >So my main points are these: > >1. I don't think crunching numbers or optimising characters is a bad thing > >(or a good thing), but merely something that people choose to do. > > I believe it is a bad thing if it results in something which is a poor > representation of the campaign world. > Circular. > >2. Knowing the system and choosing to do something because of the way it > >is set up is something that _all_ players do. Being good at it does not > >make you a bas role player (nor does it make you a good one). > > True. > > >3. I don't think that there is any real distinction between "gamers" and > >"role-players" > > There is based on my above definition. That is not to say that some > optimisers ("gamers") are not very good actors ("role-players") and vice > versa. You haven 't offered a definition. You've made a number of conditional statements that are irrefutable. But they don't lead anywhere. As far as I can see, you've said 'When number-crunching leads to bad roleplaying, then that is bad roleplaying'. I'm no for'arder, Brent. > >4. I don't think it is useful to try and make a distinction between them. > > But people do. People make a distinction between Jews and Nazis, and however loaded that is, my point is that merely because we have a habit of doing something, this does not make it right, useful or even polite. > > Perhaps I should replace "gamers" with "people who break the game world > while adhering to the game rules" and "role-players" with "people who will > not break the game world, even to the detriment of their characters". I not only detect the scent of burning martyr, I'm warming my hands in the flames. Look, a player can choose to spend their ep any legal way they like. How would you police your regime, Brent? All this is about is finger-pointing, and crying 'shame'. I don't see anything of value coming out of this particular line of discussion, since Andrew Luxton's points. Jim. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 20 13:51:39 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id NAA04880; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:51:39 +1300 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (root@tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id NAA04840 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:51:36 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p11-max1.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.97.11]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA24423 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:44:44 +1300 Message-Id: <199810200044.NAA24423@smtp2.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: EP :The real problem. Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:41:19 +1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. ---------- > From: Mandos Mitchinson >Jim wrote: > >Huh? Because the award leaves one DM's game, and moves to another DM's > >game, it becomes a player thing...What bottle did that come out of? > > > When you give out EP, it has no effect on your game. It impacts the GM in > the next game. By which time it is an incorperated part of the character on > your game. EP never effects the GM. > > This is a little difficult to explain....if anyone else understands what I > am trying to say could they give explaining it a try :-0) > I know what you're trying to say, George. I just don't agree with it. A DM must weigh his awards critically, rewarding good playing fairly and justly. And they must also have an eye to the xp environment they're a part of. I haven't seen DM's xp awards as a problem, really. I think this is a theoretical problem. I can't think of any cases where what you suggest has happened. Jim. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 20 13:55:23 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id NAA05002; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:55:23 +1300 Received: from gate.datacom.co.nz (gate.datacom.co.nz [202.27.76.67]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id NAA04993 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:55:21 +1300 Received: from dslak3.dslak.co.nz ([192.203.216.7]) by gate.datacom.co.nz (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id NAA21298 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:48:30 +1300 (NZDT) Received: by dslak3.dslak.co.nz with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52) id <01BDFC30.8FAEA8A0@dslak3.dslak.co.nz>; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 01:50:13 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Selling Xp Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 01:50:25 +0100 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 From: Noel Livingston {DSL AK} To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Given that it is not possible, not now an issue however I derive enjoyment from playing a fairly well off character, with family in "poor adventurer" household, its not fun having a family living in squallor. Given the pathetic amounts of loot given out by gm's in the last few years its no wonder the guild is becomming mercenary. Unless you are one of those rare loonies who spends all their money on spells, lives in a shack and has no family or dependants characters actually live less well off except for a few rich ones than the average craftsman. Given that adventurers risk their lives doing hideously dangerous stuff shouldn't the minium wage so to speak reflect this ? < out of character - ned would not tell others this hes too proud > Ned who will die for money has earn't about 700 pennies per adventure after removing curses, has no money left, no items or stuff, hasn't been able to afford training ( extra xp - heres a money for xp exchange ) , large ( read huge ) depts to guild and non-guild members. Gms are encouraging players to be 1) mercenary 2) single with no dependants 3) live in squallor Is this what everyone want's ? PS: Ned's an extreme as he is honorable and pays his depts and belives in looking after his family, which doesn't help. Perhaps being a scum with no scruples is what gms encourage, with extra xp cause they can afford the training. Sorry --gripe gripe -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 20 13:51:36 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id NAA04826; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:51:36 +1300 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (root@tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id NAA04790 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:51:31 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p11-max1.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.97.11]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA24377 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:44:30 +1300 Message-Id: <199810200044.NAA24377@smtp2.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: Guild Ego Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 12:49:56 +1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. ---------- > From: Bart Janssen > Andrew wrote > > > Example: A single rank 10 earth elemental is unstoppable by regular > > troops. > > Jim replied > > > This is a reason to change the spell, Andrew, not a reason to support the > > idea that one character can have that much of an effect on the politics of > > a principality. > > Wrong. The spells and magic that exist in the DQ world are essentially > the same as the fundamental laws of physics that exist in our own > world. The historical model derived from our world cannot and will not > fit into a world with such different basic laws of reality. In this case Jim, > Andrew is right and you are wrong. You really are an importunate cretin, aren't you, Bart. I am not wrong. It is not good for a roleplaying game to give that much power to a character, just because there is a rule to cover it. >Just because large regiments of > troops were important in our history does not make it reasonable for > them to exist in the same manner in the DQ world. Thus since the spell > DOES exist, the world model must be different. Any other assumption > is just silly. You are silly, Bart. Remarkably silly. > > The same logic applies to population numbers and loss of life from > plagues. Mages can bless crops hence food production can be higher > than in our history. Healers can cure disease (at relatively low ranks) > hence plagues WILL stop, unlike in our own history where the black > death ran for centuries and did kill 95% of the people in some towns > (probably because the people in those towns shared a very similar > genotype and were all susceptable) and none in other towns. Overall the > black death probably killed an average of around 25% of town or city > dwellers but it is important to note that that is an average and there > were much higher death rates in some areas. With healers such a > plague is not possible. > > Put simply, given the magic system as it exists unless you postulate > that mages and healers are very rare (unlikely given the experience of > guild members) then patterns of life are very very different from our own > history and that is most obvious in cities, warfare and armies. They > cannot be otherwise. To try and change the magic system to fit our > history would be silly. Who's trying to make if fit history? I'm merely saying that it does not add to the flavour of the genre. All this does is introduce magical tech into the game. Look, Bart. You are never go to advance a sensible argument until you start addressing things from first principles. These are not the things covered in the rule book. They are things to do with the kind of game that would be good to play in. Stop using the rule book as a bible, man. And stop these rude and idiotic remarks. Otherwise, I shall continue to respond in like fashion. Jim. Really pissed off. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 20 13:51:38 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id NAA04858; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:51:38 +1300 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (root@tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id NAA04797 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:51:34 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p11-max1.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.97.11]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA24406 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:44:40 +1300 Message-Id: <199810200044.NAA24406@smtp2.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: One spell wonders Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:28:27 +1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. ---------- > From: Brent & Sally > At 10:43 AM 20/10/98 +1300, Kelsie wrote: > >Bart wrote at length and repeatedly > > > >You're missing the point. everyone understands what you're getting at. You're > >saying the same thing every post. > >But everyone else diagrees. Reiterating the SAME argument isn't going to > >change that. > > SOME people disagree. Some people agree. No-one is going to change their mind if the same argument is presented again and again. If a different argument were produced, or the discussion evolved along another line, then other people might be drawn to one position or another. Jim. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 20 14:03:22 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id OAA05067; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 14:03:22 +1300 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (root@tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id OAA05055 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 14:03:21 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p11-max1.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.97.11]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA25381 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:56:28 +1300 Message-Id: <199810200056.NAA25381@smtp2.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: Sale Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:44:06 +1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. ---------- > From: Andrew Withy (FAL AKL) > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Subject: RE: Sale > Date: Tuesday, October 20, 1998 1:05 PM > > > So players can now sell experience points to other players for sp. Is > this desirable? > My feeling is that this is wrong and should not be allowed, but then I > always jump to extremes. Does anyone else care? Why do you care, Andrew? I certainly don't. How can you care, it's not your character. Jim. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 20 14:03:32 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id OAA05126; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 14:03:32 +1300 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (root@tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id OAA05116 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 14:03:31 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p11-max1.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.97.11]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA25394 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:56:32 +1300 Message-Id: <199810200056.NAA25394@smtp2.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: Top Out Syndrome? Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:47:17 +1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. ---------- > From: Jacqui Smith > Rosemary, I'm trying to put myself in your position and consider what that > ep could go on, what restrictions exist in the system to stop Amelia > developing further... > > We could: > 1) Lift the limits on maximum stats - perhaps removing the base+5 > restriction in a systematic way, doubling the cost for the next 5 points, > triping for the next five, etc... > 2) Lift the maximum rank limits on weapons and skills. > 3) Invent new things for characters, especially non-mage,s to spend ep on. > > I don't see any of these possibilities being entirely desirable! > > The most effective anti-topout technique I've seen is GMs giving out unique > rankable abilities with high EMs. Helps to individualise characters as > well. > > >I have no problem with her topping out at and only being mid-level, that's > >a side effect of being a specialized character. But it would be nice to > >have something to do with that ep. That's supposed to be our reward after > >all. > > You still enjoy playing Amelia, correct? So does the fact that she has > "topped-out" really matter? She's as good as she can get at what she does, > and that has to be a neat thing to play. *points at Jacqui*What she said... I agree with Jacqui, here. Pretty much entirely. Jim. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 20 14:03:25 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id OAA05085; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 14:03:25 +1300 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (root@tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id OAA05075 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 14:03:24 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p11-max1.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.97.11]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA25389 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:56:30 +1300 Message-Id: <199810200056.NAA25389@smtp2.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: Guild Ego Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:45:31 +1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. ---------- > From: Martin Dickson > > Noel is also using a 20:1 ratio for rural to urban pop. IMHO, this is more > appropriate for an early medieval model -- such as the 12th C reign of Stephen > that Jim mentioned -- than the one that I have seen most often evidenced in > DQ. Trying to pin down an historically analogous time to Alusia is a bit like > wrestling a greased pig, but given the amount and type of exploration, > shipping, literacy, style of weapons and armour, etc,etc, etc... that is > around, I have been left with a best guess of around 1500 AD...ish. > > Using that as a basis, we'd be looking at more like a 10:1 in most areas. > > Seagate, being a river port, may also be a bit outside the norm, in that many > of its fisher-folk probably live in the low-rent district, but do live in town, > meaning that a lower level of rural producer is required. > > If as Brent said, Carzala is a bread-basket area, and being in the Sweetwater > delta that would seem sensible, then the bushels per acre being cropped may be > very high, and this in turn may allow a lower rural percentage. Sounds good to me... Jim. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 20 14:03:30 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id OAA05104; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 14:03:30 +1300 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (root@tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id OAA05095 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 14:03:29 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p11-max1.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.97.11]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA25415 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:56:38 +1300 Message-Id: <199810200056.NAA25415@smtp2.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: For Sale Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:48:59 +1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Jim Arona" To: dq-pub@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq-pub@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq-pub@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. ---------- > From: Dean_Ellis@wilsonandhorton.co.nz > To: dq-pub@dq.sf.org.nz > Subject: Re: For Sale > Date: Tuesday, October 20, 1998 1:24 PM > > > One would presume that Ned has some way of transferring these EN points to > another person or an object, yes? Description of such would be useful as > this is not a normal ability. But until actually done, none of our business, really. Jim. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 20 14:03:38 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id OAA05146; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 14:03:38 +1300 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (root@tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id OAA05135 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 14:03:37 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p11-max1.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.97.11]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA25424 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:56:39 +1300 Message-Id: <199810200056.NAA25424@smtp2.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: Top Out Syndrome? Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:52:21 +1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. ---------- > From: Bart Janssen > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Subject: Re: Top Out Syndrome? > Date: Wednesday, October 21, 1998 2:34 AM > > > Jaqui wrote > > > Rosemary, I'm trying to put myself in your position and consider what that > > ep could go on, what restrictions exist in the system to stop Amelia > > developing further... > > > > We could: > > 1) Lift the limits on maximum stats - perhaps removing the base+5 > > restriction in a systematic way, doubling the cost for the next 5 points, > > triping for the next five, etc... > > With the removal of 26 AG advantages there is no longer any real > reason to put an absolute top limit on a stat providing the cost > increases similar to an ep mulitple. (ie 6th point costs 10 000, 7th > costs 15 000). There are some characters who would do it. > > > 2) Lift the maximum rank limits on weapons and skills. > > Again providing the ep costs increase appropriately there is no real > mechanical reason why not. Especially after the changes to riposte in > combat. Skill could have some minor problems but hey at rank 9 thief > Arthur already has over 200% chance of climbing successfully so who > cares. > > > 3) Invent new things for characters, especially non-mage,s to spend ep on. > > Oooo no yuk, give fighters more cool things to do, no we couldn't > possible do that, mages are the only real people anyway > > > I don't see any of these possibilities being entirely desirable! > > I, on the other hand see the exact opposite. > > > The most effective anti-topout technique I've seen is GMs giving out unique > > rankable abilities with high EMs. Helps to individualise characters as > > well. > > In fact again I see the opposite. In almost every case every "unique" > ability I've seen has been so poorly thought out that it becomes a > nightmare for all subsequent GMs. And that include my own special > abilities. When a single GM lets a charcater step outside the rules they > almost always get it holelessly wrong. > > > >I have no problem with her topping out at and only being mid-level, that's > > >a side effect of being a specialized character. But it would be nice to > > >have something to do with that ep. That's supposed to be our reward after > > >all. > > > > You still enjoy playing Amelia, correct? So does the fact that she has > > "topped-out" really matter? She's as good as she can get at what she does, > > and that has to be a neat thing to play. > > But considerably more fun could be had if the character could go on and > become even better at their speciality. > > Sorry to disagree so completely and utterly with you on this Jacqui I don't believe you are sorry, Bart. Being disagreeable is something of a hobby for you. > Jim. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 20 14:09:50 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id OAA05208; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 14:09:50 +1300 Received: from gate.datacom.co.nz (gate.datacom.co.nz [202.27.76.67]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id OAA05199 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 14:09:49 +1300 Received: from dslak3.dslak.co.nz ([192.203.216.7]) by gate.datacom.co.nz (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id OAA21690 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 14:02:54 +1300 (NZDT) Received: by dslak3.dslak.co.nz with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52) id <01BDFC32.91BC8F20@dslak3.dslak.co.nz>; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 02:04:35 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: money vs xp Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 02:04:48 +0100 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 From: Noel Livingston {DSL AK} To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. given that money is low to stop players buying horrible invested's and stuff and getting tough I would like to propose 1) money = how well you live = household, family stuff like that, warhorse, house you know character development stuff 2) xp = power (personal blat your dead stuff ) Given that people agree with this then you will see 1. investeds and potions costing xp 2. characters living in nice houses , not being forced to be mercenary, having families, 3 you could give them a million pennies each and they wouldn't get any powerfuller if faced by an angry orc with an axe, they may be able to hire good henchmen though. 4 Kings are rich but not necessarily personally tough cause of it. Cheers Noel -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 20 14:14:59 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id OAA05245; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 14:14:59 +1300 Received: from mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (mailhost.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.1.4]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id OAA05236 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 14:14:57 +1300 Received: from sci4 (lbr-122-42.lbrsc.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.122.42]) by mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (8.9.1/8.9.1/8.9.1-ua) with SMTP id OAA16282 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 14:07:51 +1300 (NZDT) Message-Id: <199810200107.OAA16282@mailhost.auckland.ac.nz> Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 14:11:03 +0000 Subject: Re: Guild Ego , Mages, etc X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) From: "Michael Parkinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-to: m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Dear all, > Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:35:25 +1300 > From: Martin Dickson . . . > For myself, I use about 1:1000 as the base number of mages in a population, with > an uneven distribution. Whilst some mages are rural -- I usually have 1 Witch per > 3 largish villages -- many congregate in urban/educated areas This proportion is what I used for Destinian Empire -- meaning Destiny, adjacent islands, and their supporting colonies (Plaz'Toro, etc). By Seagaters and others, it is percieved to be a rich society of sea-going mages. Actually the kingdom is (was?) a trading Oligarchy of about 800 Dons, with some 800,000 supporting townspeople & assorted peasants. Of the 800 Dons some 600 are competent mages (the others are merely influential non-mages); but again there are some 200 lesser officers who are magic-using, but with insufficent experience or reputation [yet!] to become Dons. High level healers [i.e., Rank 8 or more] are even rarer, but with atleast one in each of the *major* towns, the 4 Great trade-fleets, and the fleet-bases [San Juan, etc]. regards, Michael Michael Parkinson Assistant Librarian Email: m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz Science Library Phone: (9) 3737 599 x 5858 University of Auckland Fax: (9) 3082 304 -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 20 14:20:20 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id OAA05279; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 14:20:20 +1300 Received: from mail.iconz.co.nz (mail.iconz.co.nz [202.14.100.36]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id OAA05269 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 14:20:19 +1300 Received: from mandos (e0.firewall.ak.iconz.net.nz [202.14.100.208]) by mail.iconz.co.nz (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA092940908845990 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 14:13:11 +1300 (NZDT) Message-ID: <016101bdfbc6$b1693380$1564a8c0@mandos.ICONZ> Subject: Re: EP Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 14:12:01 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 From: "Mandos Mitchinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >Well, that's fine for you, George. Other DMs may not have that ability. If >they don't, then, clearly, their responsibility is to the players they are >providing the game for. Why should their limitations reduce the enjoyment >of others? My point here is that stopping a character playing does not have a fraction of the effect that stopping a player can have on the game. I tend to think that the GM's influence on Game enjoyment is surprisingly limited and that it is the players getting along that has the greater effect. If the players get along then they will work as an effective team and will generally be aware of the other players enjoyment. Thus the "level" of the characters has a negligant effect. Mandos /s -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 20 14:20:43 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id OAA05299; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 14:20:43 +1300 Received: from bo.nznet.gen.nz (nznet.gen.nz [203.98.34.1]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id OAA05289 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 14:20:43 +1300 Received: from takitimu.co.nz (max2-ak26.nznet.gen.nz [203.98.35.91]) by bo.nznet.gen.nz (8.8.7/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA19576 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 14:22:11 +1300 Received: from takitimu.co.nz by takitimu.co.nz; Tue, 20 Oct 98 14:11:42 +1300 Message-ID: <362BE3BA.5FB5621C@takitimu.co.nz> Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 14:13:44 +1300 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Guild Ego Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Kelsie To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: kelsie@takitimu.co.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Jono Bean wrote: This is a good point. Maybe we should all put fingers to keyboard and write up > afew bits that you think could be of interest. They could cover everything from > storys to legends, history etc.. and I and Martin would be happy to put it all > together and put it out as a Acrobat (PDF) document for player and GMs alike. > > Be done before: > I've asked people (GMs) to write up "stuff of interest" for the campaign before > and with no result. I am left feeling from the lack of willing writes - that > people (GMs and Players) don't realy care about the campaign and are happy to > continue with a "Days of Our Lives" campaign and not one with a real flavour and > feel to it like "Babylon 5" say. > > We would be editing the information and stories into differant sections so that > it all hangs together. What do people think? > > Jono Yes do it. On a similar note, I have been working on a map of Seagate for some time. If anybody has run games there and/or knows of any significant places that should be on the map could they let me know. Kelsie -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 20 14:33:21 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id OAA05349; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 14:33:21 +1300 Received: from kcbbs.gen.nz (kcbbs.gen.nz [202.14.102.1]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id OAA05340 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 14:33:20 +1300 Received: from LOCALNAME (as5200-04.kcbbs.gen.nz [202.14.102.34]) by kcbbs.gen.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA08232 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 14:23:39 +1300 (NZDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.16.19981020140659.4cf7131e@kcbbs.gen.nz> X-Sender: salient@kcbbs.gen.nz X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (16) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 14:06:59 Subject: Re: Jono's campaign request Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: Brent & Sally To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Its my experience that its easier to add to and edit an existing doucment than to overcome the inertia of creating something new, especially with the expectation of having to end up with a "finished" document. This is being exampled at the moment by Noel's postings triggering people to to actually write things down about Carzala. (What is (if there is) the correct spelling of this duchy ?) So as Jono suggested, a few paragraphs here and there from players (not necessarily the GMs) from where they've adventured would overcome the inertia problem. With pre-emptive thanks to Jono and Martin for editing. And Rosemary and Michael Parkinson. Do you have, or are there any areas covered already ? Would it be worth posting those documents to get further feedback. Perhaps a few at a time so as to not overwhelm one. Also, is editing info from the scribe notes Keith already has an option for some areas ? BTW, as history is written by the victors, when will the official version of the War a few years back be put out. Looking back at it now, who started it, who was right and then who won ? A document on this topic would be nice too. Regards, Sally >This is a good point. Maybe we should all put fingers to keyboard and write up >afew bits that you think could be of interest. They could cover everything from >storys to legends, history etc.. and I and Martin would be happy to put it all >together and put it out as a Acrobat (PDF) document for player and GMs alike. > >Be done before: >I've asked people (GMs) to write up "stuff of interest" for the campaign before >and with no result. I am left feeling from the lack of willing writes - that >people (GMs and Players) don't realy care about the campaign and are happy to >continue with a "Days of Our Lives" campaign and not one with a real flavour >and feel to it like "Babylon 5" say.> > >We would be editing the information and stories into differant sections so that >it all hangs together. What do people think? > >Jono > -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 20 14:33:25 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id OAA05370; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 14:33:25 +1300 Received: from kcbbs.gen.nz (kcbbs.gen.nz [202.14.102.1]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id OAA05360 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 14:33:24 +1300 Received: from LOCALNAME (as5200-04.kcbbs.gen.nz [202.14.102.34]) by kcbbs.gen.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA08238 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 14:23:44 +1300 (NZDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.16.19981020140142.4cf78dce@kcbbs.gen.nz> X-Sender: salient@kcbbs.gen.nz X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (16) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 14:01:42 Subject: Re: EP Awards Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: Brent & Sally To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. At 12:47 PM 20/10/98 +1300, Mandos wrote: >Just a message for those who would be interested in seeing the EP rewards >drop. > >What was the feeling on the numbers I mentioned earlier? > >Ie 300 turning up EP and 400 for the two roleplaying catagories? Currents awards new characters for 12 sessions with full attendence should be : from 12,000 (average role-playing) to 18,000 (excellent role-playing) Proposed new awards : from 8,400 (average role-playing) to 13,200 (excellent role-playing) This seems good to me. What is the current award for adventure level ? It may need to be upped a bit to compensate. Cheers, Brent. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 20 14:34:21 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id OAA05396; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 14:34:21 +1300 Received: from mail.iconz.co.nz (mail.iconz.co.nz [202.14.100.36]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id OAA05386 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 14:34:20 +1300 Received: from mandos (e0.firewall.ak.iconz.net.nz [202.14.100.208]) by mail.iconz.co.nz (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA142700908846844 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 14:27:24 +1300 (NZDT) Message-ID: <016801bdfbc8$ac4b7820$1564a8c0@mandos.ICONZ> Subject: Re: EP Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 14:26:31 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 From: "Mandos Mitchinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >I never suggested we should award more xp. I believe the xp awards are >about right. I don't want to see them go up. I don't want to see them go >down. My apologies for the misunderstanding, I mistook your comments to indicate that you wished EP to be raised. >> Limitation inspires thought, deprivation prompt disire. The more thought >and >> disire to improve that a player has, the greater the levels of thought >and >> imagination go into the character. More thought that goes into the >> character, theoretically the better the resulting roleplaying. > >This is a good point. It is worth thinking about. My aim as a GM is to promote thought from a player to the thoughts and feelings of the character they are attempting to portray. This is the main reason I would like to see EP go back the the levels that it was 6-7 years ago as I feel they were more appropriate. >> Of course giving the players their every whim without any stuggle also >has >> it's merits :-) > >I'd like to know what, George. So would I :-) Mandos apologises for the lack of a sarcasm note. Mandos /s -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 20 14:40:12 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id OAA05449; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 14:40:12 +1300 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (root@tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id OAA05438 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 14:40:11 +1300 Received: from phaeton.ihug.co.nz (p49-max4.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.97.241]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA28690 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 14:33:20 +1300 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19981020142943.007b1100@pop.ihug.co.nz> X-Sender: phaeton@pop.ihug.co.nz X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 14:29:43 +1300 Subject: Re: Jono's campaign request Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: Keith Smith To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >Do you have, or are there any areas covered already ? Would it be worth >posting those documents to get further feedback. Perhaps a few at a time >so as to not overwhelm one. Also, is editing info from the scribe notes >Keith already has an option for some areas ? It's a possibility. However, it means sifting through quite a few notes to find relative information. (Must finish getting them scanned - and figure out a waty of electronic searching - suggestions?) >BTW, as history is written by the victors, when will the official version >of the War a few years back be put out. Looking back at it now, who >started it, who was right and then who won ? A document on this topic >would be nice too. For the SGT? Yes please. Keith (phaeton@ihig.co.nz) -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 20 14:40:16 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id OAA05467; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 14:40:16 +1300 Received: from mail.iconz.co.nz (mail.iconz.co.nz [202.14.100.36]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id OAA05458 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 14:40:15 +1300 Received: from mandos (e0.firewall.ak.iconz.net.nz [202.14.100.208]) by mail.iconz.co.nz (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA164180908847200 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 14:33:20 +1300 (NZDT) Message-ID: <016f01bdfbc9$818de400$1564a8c0@mandos.ICONZ> Subject: Re: EP :The real problem. Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 14:32:26 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 From: "Mandos Mitchinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >I know what you're trying to say, George. I just don't agree with it. A DM >must weigh his awards critically, rewarding good playing fairly and justly. >And they must also have an eye to the xp environment they're a part of. >I haven't seen DM's xp awards as a problem, really. I think this is a >theoretical problem. I can't think of any cases where what you suggest has >happened. I don't think we are talking quite on the same wavelength yet :-) I am not sure what problem you are refering to. Ill try and explain again..... If you give me EP then you do not see that EP again so it is not really a worry to you how much you give out to me. Hence in this case the amount of EP is only of concern to the player. By the time I get to the next GM I have assimilated the EP you gave me into the character. All that is of concern to the next GM is the state if that character after the EP is spent. Thus the EP again is the concern of the Player not the GM. If the GM has no stake in the amount given out and does not need to worry about the amount when the character is next played it means that the amount of EP really only effect the player that recieves them, and as such any discussions regarding the levels of EP given out in the should be done from the player perspective. Mandos /s -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 20 14:51:07 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id OAA05537; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 14:51:07 +1300 Received: from mail.iconz.co.nz (mail.iconz.co.nz [202.14.100.36]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id OAA05528 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 14:51:04 +1300 Received: from mandos (e0.firewall.ak.iconz.net.nz [202.14.100.208]) by mail.iconz.co.nz (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA201610908847848 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 14:44:08 +1300 (NZDT) Message-ID: <01bd01bdfbcb$0356e080$1564a8c0@mandos.ICONZ> Subject: Re: EP Awards Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 14:43:15 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 From: "Mandos Mitchinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >Currents awards new characters for 12 sessions with full attendence should >be : > from 12,000 (average role-playing) > to 18,000 (excellent role-playing) > >Proposed new awards : > from 8,400 (average role-playing) > to 13,200 (excellent role-playing) > >This seems good to me. > >What is the current award for adventure level ? It may need to be upped a >bit to compensate. It seems a little strange that we should aim to reduce EP, look at doing so, and then increase another portion of EP to compensate for the loss?????? Mandos /s -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 20 15:04:43 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id PAA05572; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 15:04:43 +1300 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (root@tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id PAA05563 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 15:04:41 +1300 Received: from phaeton.ihug.co.nz (p49-max4.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.97.241]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA31162 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 14:57:47 +1300 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19981020145410.007ae6d0@pop.ihug.co.nz> X-Sender: phaeton@pop.ihug.co.nz X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 14:54:10 +1300 Subject: Re: EP Awards Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: Keith Smith To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >What is the current award for adventure level ? It may need to be upped a >bit to compensate. 0 - Bunny/Very low 300 - Low 600 - Medium 900 - High 1200 - Very High 1500 - Extremly High/God Bothering Keith (phaeton@ihug.co.nz) -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 20 15:35:36 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id PAA05637; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 15:35:36 +1300 Received: from gate.datacom.co.nz (gate.datacom.co.nz [202.27.76.67]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id PAA05626 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 15:35:34 +1300 Received: from dslak3.dslak.co.nz ([192.203.216.7]) by gate.datacom.co.nz (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id PAA01826 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 15:28:40 +1300 (NZDT) Received: by dslak3.dslak.co.nz with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52) id <01BDFC3E.8DCBFD90@dslak3.dslak.co.nz>; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 03:30:23 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Adventure Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 03:30:35 +0100 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 From: Noel Livingston {DSL AK} To: dq-pub@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq-pub@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq-pub@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Sorry Baron sadar , I though it might work, you have to try these things, but I suppose even mid level adventures don't pay enough for a "poor adventurer" household. Does hell pay well ? , need a rank 6 healer, baggage carrier ?. Cheers Ned -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 20 16:31:51 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id QAA05726; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 16:31:51 +1300 Received: from host02.net.voyager.co.nz (root@host02.net.voyager.co.nz [203.21.30.125]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id QAA05717 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 16:31:48 +1300 Received: from aklnt1.cogita.co.nz ([203.98.2.165]) by host02.net.voyager.co.nz (8.8.8/8.6.12) with ESMTP id QAA29943 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 16:24:51 +1300 (NZDT) Received: by cogita.co.nz with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) id ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 16:24:58 +1200 Message-ID: <31E705B3DD24D111B08600A024A3E58B3428CD@cogita.co.nz> Subject: DO YOU PEOPLE EVER WORK! Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 16:24:52 +1200 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain From: Neil Davies To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Bluddy 'ell, thats about 100 messages today already. Do you people EVER do work??? Neil. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 20 16:35:08 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id QAA05751; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 16:35:08 +1300 Received: from fclaklmr01.fcl.co.nz ([203.98.14.148] (may be forged)) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id QAA05741 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 16:35:06 +1300 Received: from falaklnt000.falum.co.nz ([10.8.1.20]) by fclaklmr01.fcl.co.nz (Post.Office MTA v3.5.1 release 219 ID# 0-0U10L2S100) with SMTP id nz ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 16:27:40 +1300 Received: by falaklnt000.falum.co.nz with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5) id <01BDFC46.AB79FA10@falaklnt000.falum.co.nz>; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 16:28:29 +1300 Message-ID: Subject: RE: Adventure Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 16:28:25 +1300 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Andrew Withy (FAL AKL)" To: dq-pub@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq-pub@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq-pub@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. A tiny cocoa-coloured halfling climbs onto a chair beside Ned & offers him a drink. "Hello Ned, I heard about your troubles - you know, we don't have money where I come from - it's a silly idea really. However, if you want money, you should try organising other people's households - the last household I reorganised gained me a lump of gold THAT big, and all the raw fish I could eat. Yummm. Cheer up - you could be a slave, or a miner, or, or, or a minion of evil like that Orc." "What you need is a girlfriend to look after your money. I'll ask around for you - there are some nice ladies here in Seagate. Why don't you wait here." >---------- >Sorry Baron sadar , I though it might work, you have to try >these things, but I suppose even mid level adventures don't >pay enough for a "poor adventurer" household. > >Does hell pay well ? , need a rank 6 healer, baggage carrier ?. > >Cheers Ned -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 20 16:35:11 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id QAA05772; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 16:35:11 +1300 Received: from peace.com (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id QAA05761 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 16:35:10 +1300 Received: via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/pcnz2.7) id QAA13457; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 16:28:19 +1300 Orig-Sender: Michael.Woodhams@peace.com Message-ID: <362C0352.EE8EB91B@peace.co.nz> Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 16:28:18 +1300 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05C-SGI [en] (X11; I; IRIX 6.5 IP32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Selling Xp Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Michael Woodhams To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: Michael.Woodhams@peace.com X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Noel Livingston {DSL AK} wrote: > [...] characters actually live less well > off except for a few rich ones than the average craftsman. Given that > adventurers risk their lives doing hideously dangerous stuff shouldn't > the minium wage so to speak reflect this ? The problem (and I know Noel is aware of this) is that living costs are way out of line with other costs. In my experience of the game, you can stay at an inn with a meal cooked for you for about 3-5 sp per person. Compare this to the *poor* household expense of 10sp per day! As a modern day comparison: hotel for the night plus meals for 6 people is probably at least $100 each, so your average menial labourer should be spending $200 per day ($1400 per week) to keep their family. From the other angle, a DQ poor household costs 10sp/day or 3650 sp per year. Look at the pricelists (especially food etc.) and see just how much you can buy for 3650sp. From memory this is also about the cost of 4 riding horses - I'm sure the cost of a riding horse historically was very significantly greater than what a poor family could earn in 3 months. (Of course, most poor families didn't actually earn any money at all in the feudal system, but poor people in towns could provide a comparison.) Adventurers have rare skills (one person in 1000 a mage has been suggested) and do a very dangerous job (even if we neglect pain and suffering and non-perminent death, the perminent death rate probably gives an expected lifetime while adventuring of about 20 years - i.e. less than 50% chance of surviving to retirement age.) As such, one would expect pay sufficient to live fairly luxuriously to be the norm - i.e. 'comfortable' wealth for even starting adventurers and rising from there. Living costs should be cut by a factor of about 4 to bring them into line with the rest of the game. Also, in my experience the 'too much money' problem is much over-rated - or possibly, the efforts at fixing it are misdirected to the medium/low adventurers instead of the high-god-bothering ones. Had my most experienced character, Anathea the witch, had buying the Hellfire spell as her primary objective in adventuring, she would have been unable to afford it until after 8 adventures. I don't feel too hard-done by with this - scraping for money for spells etc. adds interest - but from my angle, the game is clearly not awash with cash. Michael W. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 20 17:37:09 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id RAA05900; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 17:37:09 +1300 Received: from date.palm.cri.nz (date.palm.cri.nz [161.66.1.20]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id RAA05890 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 17:37:07 +1300 Received: from mail1.marc.cri.nz (mail1.marc.cri.nz [161.29.1.1]) by date.palm.cri.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA13542 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 17:21:46 +1300 (NZDT) Received: from hra1.marc.cri.nz (unverified [161.29.1.5]) by mail1.marc.cri.nz (Dr Solomon's SMTPRS 2.0.15) with ESMTP id ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 17:27:43 +1300 Message-Id: Received: from HRA1/SpoolDir by hra1.marc.cri.nz (Mercury 1.31); 20 Oct 98 17:30:49 GMT+12 Received: from SpoolDir by HRA1 (Mercury 1.31); 20 Oct 98 17:30:43 GMT+12 Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 17:30:41 GMT+1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Guild Ego X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01b) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT From: "Bart Janssen" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Date sent: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:35:25 +1300 Subject: Re: Guild Ego From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Send reply to: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > > Bart Janssen wrote: > > > ...unless you postulate > > that mages and healers are very rare (unlikely given the experience of > > guild members) then patterns of life are very very different from our own > > history and that is most obvious in cities, warfare and armies. > > Using the employment/skill patterns of the Guild as a guideline is spurious in the > extreme. No I'm not using the membership of the guild as measure of how many mages there are in the world I am however using the experiences of my characters and every other player thatI've ever talked with. As they travel through the countryside meeting mages and healers in every town village city hamlet small shed hovel toilet.......that we pass through. My characters are either extremely fortunate to meet such totally unrepresentative population OR the GMs that I have played with (you included) are completely hypocritical in their view of the world by saying on the one hand the party meets this many mages per mile however there still are not enough mages to build a decent town wall. As I said before that is plain silly. > It would be like taking a survey of professions at... well, to use an > example with you you are familiar, at a genetics conference and then coming to the > statistical conclusion that a huge percentage of the world's population are > molecular biologists. Don't be as stupid as Jim. I don't do my surveys inside the guild but on the road where I meet the ordinary folk, and have those same ordinary folk use magic and healing at a significantly higher rate than the GMs will admit is present in the world. The hyprocracy of pretending that the world is magic poor while at the same time as roleplaying ordinary NPCs with magic is truely ludicrous. > Even just using the professions of the people with whom guildmembers interact will > not yield useful statistical data. I am sure that as a scientist, you would find > that you intereact with many more scientists (as a percentage of people with who > you interact) than they exist as a percentage of the population at large. Gosh teach me statistics next. I am quite capable of differentiating between ordinary environments and non-standard environments and over 15 years of roleplaying in Alusia I can very confidently say that the ordinary level of healing and magic is so high as to make a medieval world similar to that of 15th century earth absolutely and completely nonsensical. Yet idiots like Jim still insist that that is what does and should exist. You want to support him in that, fine. > Magic using Guildmembers spend a lot of time interacting with magic using bad-guys > because that is often the only way with which they may defeated. Employers who > could find another, cheaper, solution to their problem don't arrive > cap-and-money-bag in hand at the Guild. Yes but magic using adventureres also pass through "normal" country on the way to adventures and that is what I base my assessment on. > For myself, I use about 1:1000 as the base number of mages in a population, with > an uneven distribution. Whilst some mages are rural -- I usually have 1 Witch per > 3 largish villages -- many congregate in urban/educated areas . Others prefer > dark, gothic towers in wilderness areas, and these are the one with whom > adventurers most often interact. :) Having adventured with you several times Martin, I can safely say that whether or not you start out with those numbers, in practice either the guild members manage to meet every single mage in your game, and several of them multiple times in disguise OR you are not even using your own numbers. Of course you could have changed you GMing in the last 4 years. cheers Bart Saying Windows 95 is equal to Macintosh is like finding a potato that looks like Jesus and believing you've witnessed the second coming. -- Guy Kawasaki Bart Janssen Hort+Research Private Bag 92169 Auckland New Zealand ph 64 9 8154200 x 7279 fax 64 9 8154201 -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 20 17:51:34 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id RAA05944; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 17:51:34 +1300 Received: from date.palm.cri.nz (date.palm.cri.nz [161.66.1.20]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id RAA05933 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 17:51:33 +1300 Received: from mail1.marc.cri.nz (mail1.marc.cri.nz [161.29.1.1]) by date.palm.cri.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA13633 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 17:36:12 +1300 (NZDT) Received: from hra1.marc.cri.nz (unverified [161.29.1.5]) by mail1.marc.cri.nz (Dr Solomon's SMTPRS 2.0.15) with ESMTP id ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 17:42:08 +1300 Message-Id: Received: from HRA1/SpoolDir by hra1.marc.cri.nz (Mercury 1.31); 20 Oct 98 17:45:14 GMT+12 Received: from SpoolDir by HRA1 (Mercury 1.31); 20 Oct 98 17:45:01 GMT+12 Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 17:44:57 GMT+1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Guild Ego X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01b) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT From: "Bart Janssen" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. > > > What would the average population density be, in England, at that time? > > > > who cares it's not relevant > > I see it as highly desirable to be able to ground most of Alusia in some historical > basis. This make other research and extrapolation possible. Otherwise it will > require the wholesale creation of a non-historical world -- one in which any > knowledge that players possess will have to be relearned. > > I have played in this sort of world (Tekumel... and to a lesser degree RQ) and it > _can _ be a lot of fun... however it is a lot more work for both the players and the > GM. Substantial amounts of background, explanation, history, and support material > has to be created before it can be used. > > Creating fantasy worlds that differ wildly from medieval analogs may be fun for > serious authors but we have a hard enough job getting the documentation and > explanation that we get currently, and we already have major consistency/continuity > problems. > > Fantasy worlds with magic and healing abilities that are also pseudo-historical > abound in literature -- surely we have only to find an explanation that allows us to > achieve this. Fine go ahead but be consistant. Either there are a shit load less mages around than we adventurers meet day to day OR Alusia cannot be modelled reliably or sensibly on our real history. And that doesn't even begin to raise the question of how so many bad mages got trained or did they all just happen to find old tomes. If you look honestly at the number of colleges at the number of spells in current use at number of mages and healers adventurers meet day to day in small towns in villages etc then a world that has little or no trace of magic observable in the day to day life (ie that modeled on real history) IS NOT PLAUSIBLE. If you want such a world then you need a drastic change in the rules and in the way GMs manage their games. You need to rationalise why bad guys can be so non-representative of the society that they derive from, you need to figure out how mages arrive at the guild with so much magical skill and knowledge when it essentially does not exist outside the guild. That world appears to be what Jim wants and you appear to support him, but I strongly doubt that either of you are willing to make the changes in the game that are needed to be consistant with that "historically derived" world. The alternative is to honestly assess the amount of magic out their based on the experience of the adventureres and then adapt the world to be consistant with that level of magic that is at present observable. To do otherwise is silly. cheers Bart Saying Windows 95 is equal to Macintosh is like finding a potato that looks like Jesus and believing you've witnessed the second coming. -- Guy Kawasaki Bart Janssen Hort+Research Private Bag 92169 Auckland New Zealand ph 64 9 8154200 x 7279 fax 64 9 8154201 -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 20 17:53:06 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id RAA05967; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 17:53:06 +1300 Received: from peace.com (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id RAA05956 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 17:53:04 +1300 Received: via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/pcnz2.7) id RAA18848; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 17:46:13 +1300 Message-ID: <362C16A8.E53BD779@peace.com> Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 17:50:48 +1300 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5b2 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Cost of Living [was Re: Selling Xp] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Hi all, To calm this "storm in a tea-cup" before it sets in for the long haul... Michael Woodhams wrote: > The problem (and I know Noel is aware of this) is that living costs are way > out of line with other costs. In my experience of the game, you can stay at > an inn with a meal cooked for you for about 3-5 sp per person. Compare this > to the *poor* household expense of 10sp per day! As a modern day > comparison: hotel for the night plus meals for 6 people is probably at > least $100 each, so your average menial labourer should be spending $200 > per day ($1400 per week) to keep their family. GM's pricing of hotels, etc, tends to be a bit all over the place -- largely because there are no guidelines for it. However, that said the 3-5sp for dinner and a room for the night is about what I would charge as a GM for a moderate inn. > >From the other angle, a DQ poor household costs 10sp/day or 3650 sp per > year. Look at the pricelists (especially food etc.) and see just how much > you can buy for 3650sp. OK... to explain. Poor is the baseline living cost. It assumes an annual income and expenditure of 3650sp. This covers feeding, clothing and shelter to the level described for that income leve. for a "household" or "hearth". This is a social unit of approximately 10 people, usually an extended family. (Mum, Dad, 4 kids, Grandpa, and Widowed Aunty Flo and her 2 children -- or Mortimer, Petal, the triplets, 2 domestics, Moto, 3 dogs, 27 cats, and one paranoid goldfish named "Mac" -- or Ned and his harem). So... 3650 / 10 people = 365sp per person per annum, or 1sp per person per day. (OK, now there are only 364 days in the Alusian year -- but the principle remains the same -- presume that the odd penny gets spent as an extra farthing each High Holiday on treats). :) So... The Poor standard of living in Alusia equal 1 penny per day to provide shelter, food and clothing. > From memory this is also about the cost of 4 riding > horses - I'm sure the cost of a riding horse historically was very > significantly greater than what a poor family could earn in 3 months. (Of > course, most poor families didn't actually earn any money at all in the > feudal system, but poor people in towns could provide a comparison.) What this suggests is that horse prices are too low. :) I think that they may have been directly introduced from the old DQ II pricelist and not updated correctly. > Living costs should be cut by a factor of about 4 to bring them into line > with the rest of the game. IMHO, Living costs are about right. Beginning/Low Adventurer should be able to afford 8,000sp per annum to live at the standard of wealthy townsfolk. Wealthy adventurers (eg. Mortimer) should be able to afford 20,000 per annum. Those who have had lands deeded to them (suhc as Vsicount Blitzkrieg) can probabyl live there at the appropriate level of comfort without paying a penny -- being a knight or Baron won't _make_ you rich, but it will give you some place to lay your head, eat well, hunt deer... and exercise your droit de seigneur into the bargain. :) Cheers, Martin -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 20 17:55:22 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id RAA06003; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 17:55:22 +1300 Received: from smtp.worley.co.nz (smtp.worley.co.nz [202.36.210.250]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id RAA05992 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 17:55:21 +1300 Received: by smtp.worley.co.nz(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.1 (569.2 2-6-1998)) id 4C2566A3.001FB86E ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 17:46:28 +1200 X-Lotus-FromDomain: WORLEY CONSULTANTS Message-ID: <4C2566A3.001F63F3.00@smtp.worley.co.nz> Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 17:48:35 +1200 Subject: Re: money vs xp Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline From: amtennant@worley.co.nz To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >given that money is low to stop players buying horrible invested's and >stuff and getting tough >I would like to propose >1) money = how well you live = household, family stuff like that, >warhorse, house you know > character development stuff >2) xp = power (personal blat your dead stuff ) >Given that people agree with this then you will see >1. investeds and potions costing xp >2. characters living in nice houses , not being forced to be mercenary, >having families, >3 you could give them a million pennies each and they wouldn't get any >powerfuller if faced by an angry orc with an axe, they may be able to >hire good henchmen though. >4 Kings are rich but not necessarily personally tough cause of it. This is weird, Noel. What drugs are you on? Having a million sp would make very little difference to my characters except the fact that I wouldn't have to work out the annoying costs of living, guild membership, training costs etc.... Some people may like that sort of thing, but then some people like hammering nails through the soft tissues of their bodies as well. Anyway, you must be going on the wrong adventures. Almost all my characters are filthy rich, so much so in some cases that I don't really bother with money, and just buy items out of my loot from each adventure then just assume a rich life style. I know this may bring gasps of dismay from the accountants amongst you, but hey, you probably needed the excitement. L8R, Adam. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 20 17:55:59 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id RAA06024; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 17:55:59 +1300 Received: from letterbox.cs.auckland.ac.nz (letterbox.cs.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.35.1]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id RAA06015 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 17:55:57 +1300 Received: from [130.216.108.110] (clare.cs.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.108.110]) by letterbox.cs.auckland.ac.nz (8.8.6/8.8.6/cs-master) with ESMTP id RAA12552 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 17:48:58 +1300 (sender clare@cs.auckland.ac.nz) X-Sender: clare@staffpop.cs.auckland.ac.nz Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 17:41:16 +0100 Subject: Re: Selling Xp From: clare@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Clare West) To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >Also, in my experience the 'too much money' problem is much over-rated >- or >possibly, the efforts at fixing it are misdirected to the medium/low >adventurers instead of the high-god-bothering ones. Had my most >experienced >character, Anathea the witch, had buying the Hellfire spell as her primary >objective in adventuring, she would have been unable to afford it until >after 8 adventures. I don't feel too hard-done by with this - scraping for >money for spells etc. adds interest - but from my angle, the game is >clearly not awash with cash. I agree. none of my characters has ever been awash with cash. and even when they've had two pennies to rub together buying a spell quickly puts paid to that. I think the "founders of New Haven" are the exception rather than the rule. I also have some thoughts on the top-out stuff people have been talking about but you'll have to wait for me to sort them out more coherently. clare -- Clare West, Rm 107, Ext 8266 clare@cs.auckland.ac.nz -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 20 18:03:28 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id SAA06067; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 18:03:28 +1300 Received: from smtp.worley.co.nz (smtp.worley.co.nz [202.36.210.250]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id SAA06057 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 18:03:25 +1300 Received: by smtp.worley.co.nz(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.1 (569.2 2-6-1998)) id 4C2566A3.002077FE ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 17:54:38 +1200 X-Lotus-FromDomain: WORLEY CONSULTANTS Message-ID: <4C2566A3.002070E9.00@smtp.worley.co.nz> Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 17:56:47 +1200 Subject: Re: Adventure Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline From: amtennant@worley.co.nz To: dq-pub@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq-pub@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq-pub@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >Sorry Baron sadar , I though it might work, you have to try these >things, but I suppose even mid >level adventures don't pay enough for a "poor adventurer" household. >Does hell pay well ? , need a rank 6 healer, baggage carrier ?. >Cheers Ned [ Blitzkrieg ] Sorry Pal. No one is coming on this mission if they can't hack or blast their way through a hundred weight of devils/demons before breakfast and still want more. We aren't taking any "baggage carriers" with us, especially ones who are only rank 6 Healers, because we'll end up carrying them back ( if they're lucky ) as baggage themselves. L8R, Adam. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 20 18:08:56 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id SAA06105; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 18:08:56 +1300 Received: from mail.iconz.co.nz (mail.iconz.co.nz [202.14.100.36]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id SAA06094 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 18:08:55 +1300 Received: from mandos (e0.firewall.ak.iconz.net.nz [202.14.100.208]) by mail.iconz.co.nz (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA015880908859717 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 18:01:57 +1300 (NZDT) Message-ID: <023801bdfbe6$a77ed940$1564a8c0@mandos.ICONZ> Subject: Re: Cost of Living [was Re: Selling Xp] Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 18:01:04 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 From: "Mandos Mitchinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >GM's pricing of hotels, etc, tends to be a bit all over the place -- largely >because there are no guidelines for it. However, that said the 3-5sp for >dinner and a room for the night is about what I would charge as a GM for a >moderate inn. Mandos notes the guidelines he wrote for someone ages ago to be included in GM's Kits. I have a copy somewhere, they only cover the baronies though. Mandos /s -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 20 22:42:47 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id WAA06346; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 22:42:47 +1300 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (root@tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id WAA06336 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 22:42:46 +1300 Received: from [206.18.106.35] (p35-max37.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.106.35]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA15446 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 22:35:50 +1300 Message-Id: <199810200935.WAA15446@smtp2.ihug.co.nz> X-Sender: flamis@pop.ihug.co.nz (Unverified) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 22:36:26 +1300 Subject: Re: Top Out Syndrome? From: flamis@pop.ihug.co.nz (Jacqui Smith) To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >With the removal of 26 AG advantages there is no longer any real >reason to put an absolute top limit on a stat providing the cost >increases similar to an ep mulitple. (ie 6th point costs 10 000, 7th >costs 15 000). There are some characters who would do it. I can well believe it, and I agree that I cannot see major problems developing if it was handled that way. Fair enough. Let's do it. >Again providing the ep costs increase appropriately there is no real >mechanical reason why not. Especially after the changes to riposte in >combat. Skill could have some minor problems but hey at rank 9 thief >Arthur already has over 200% chance of climbing successfully so who >cares. Are there good reasons for the maximum ranks on weapons? >> 3) Invent new things for characters, especially non-mage,s to spend ep on. > >Oooo no yuk, give fighters more cool things to do, no we couldn't >possible do that, mages are the only real people anyway The problem is that you end up simply providing yet another thing for fighter-mages to spend ep on - and I have to admit that my oldest character is a fighter/mind-mage with a handy collection of skills and unique abilities who shows no sign of topping-out after nine years of play (mostly every second session). At the current rate of progress I should easily get another nine years out of Starflower - she is well off maximum rank in some of her weapons and skills, has nowhere near topped out her stats and has heaps of scope in the magic area. If you want to get mileage out of a character, try a non-human fighter/mage with a high ep college! >> The most effective anti-topout technique I've seen is GMs giving out unique >> rankable abilities with high EMs. Helps to individualise characters as >> well. > >In fact again I see the opposite. In almost every case every "unique" >ability I've seen has been so poorly thought out that it becomes a >nightmare for all subsequent GMs. And that include my own special >abilities. When a single GM lets a charcater step outside the rules they >almost always get it holelessly wrong. That's why I prefer to see such abilities checked by at least one other GM. >> >I have no problem with her topping out at and only being mid-level, that's >> >a side effect of being a specialized character. But it would be nice to >> >have something to do with that ep. That's supposed to be our reward after >> >all. >> >> You still enjoy playing Amelia, correct? So does the fact that she has >> "topped-out" really matter? She's as good as she can get at what she does, >> and that has to be a neat thing to play. > >But considerably more fun could be had if the character could go on and >become even better at their speciality. But are there natural limits to the development of any ability? Jacqui -- See message headers to unsubscribe from --