From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Oct 22 08:46:01 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id IAA08645; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 08:46:01 +1300 Received: from peace.com (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id IAA08635 ; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 08:45:59 +1300 Received: via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/pcnz2.7) id IAA28161; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 08:38:51 +1300 Message-ID: <362E3960.35B5C3D9@peace.com> Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 08:43:29 +1300 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5b2 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Miscellaneous Agenda items Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Brent & Sally wrote: > Some more items for the agenda : > > 1) 19 Earth G-6 Healing : For consistancy change "This spell takes about 5 > minutes to cast" to "This spell cannot be pulse cast". I must have missed this one the first time around -- why is it desirable to reduce the time form 5 minutes to 1 minute? Does this redress some imbablance in the spell? Or is it that spell casting only covers 10 sec and 1 min casts ans this one is outside the norm? Could it be that this is actually a very short ritual (ie. cast time = 5 mins)? > 2) 35.1 With the rewrite of the Courtier skill the Agility EP modifiers > only seem to apply to the Dance and Seduction skills, so no longer seem > appropriate. Remove the +10% for AG < 12 and the -10% for AG > 22. Change > Version to 2.1. This one I think is worth challenging. One could either argue that AG was never appropriate or that it always was and still is. The "blurby" bit of the skill may have changed, but the sub-skills remain the same. Logically AG never helped or hindered with playing musical instruments, for instance. However, I believe that the intention is that naturally graceful people have more success in courtly/social situations, and that clumsy folk have a natural barrier. However, that said, the removal of the 10% bonus/penalty is no huge thing -- I just wouldn't do it solely on account of the change to the skills intro description. Cheers, Martin -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Oct 22 08:52:44 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id IAA08676; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 08:52:44 +1300 Received: from peace.com (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id IAA08667 ; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 08:52:43 +1300 Received: via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/pcnz2.7) id IAA28763; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 08:45:35 +1300 Orig-Sender: Michael.Woodhams@peace.com Message-ID: <362E39DE.4D4906DA@peace.co.nz> Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 08:45:35 +1300 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05C-SGI [en] (X11; I; IRIX 6.5 IP32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Miscellaneous Agenda items Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Michael Woodhams To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: Michael.Woodhams@peace.com X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Brent & Sally wrote: > Some more items for the agenda : > > > > 3) 10.3 Remove Curse Triangles : Change "It is not portable" to "A skilled > Mechanician may construct a folding Triangle which costs an extra 20% and > weighs 5 lbs." All the suggested backfire clarifications and misc items look good except this one. This seems silly and atmosphere destroying. The white robes, the mystical candles, the chanting, the brazier, the exotic ingredients and ... the collapsable triangle that you slap down on the ground. Furthermore, I don't see why this is desirable from a game point of view either. The only point I can see is possibly some people may have portable triangles already from before the rules were clarified to say they were non-portable. Can you justify this proposed change? Michael W. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Oct 22 09:06:54 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id JAA08712; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 09:06:54 +1300 Received: from fclaklmr01.fcl.co.nz ([203.98.14.148] (may be forged)) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id JAA08702 ; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 09:06:53 +1300 Received: from falaklnt000.falum.co.nz ([10.8.1.20]) by fclaklmr01.fcl.co.nz (Post.Office MTA v3.5.1 release 219 ID# 0-0U10L2S100) with SMTP id nz ; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 08:59:05 +1300 Received: by falaklnt000.falum.co.nz with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5) id <01BDFD9A.99B99830@falaklnt000.falum.co.nz>; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 09:01:48 +1300 Message-ID: Subject: RE: Miscellaneous Agenda items Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 09:01:39 +1300 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Andrew Withy (FAL AKL)" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. While agreeing with Martin & Michael, I would also like to clarify one point : Do we actually have Active Concentration & Passive Concentration? - I thought they slipped out of play a while ago. It might be better to indicate which spells are "Active Concentration" or require pass actions before or instead of this change. >5) 3.8 Action Restrictions - Pass Actions. Change Magical Pass Action >"Concentrate" to "Actively Concentrate". > > -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Oct 22 09:17:17 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id JAA08745; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 09:17:17 +1300 Received: from kcbbs.gen.nz (kcbbs.gen.nz [202.14.102.1]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id JAA08736 ; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 09:17:17 +1300 Received: from LOCALNAME (as5200-22.kcbbs.gen.nz [202.14.102.52]) by kcbbs.gen.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA18998; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 09:07:15 +1300 (NZDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.16.19981022090740.279fc134@kcbbs.gen.nz> X-Sender: salient@kcbbs.gen.nz X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (16) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 09:07:40 Subject: Re: Miscellaneous Agenda items Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: Brent & Sally To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. At 08:45 AM 22/10/98 +1300, Michael Woodhams wrote: >Brent & Sally wrote: >> Some more items for the agenda : >> 3) 10.3 Remove Curse Triangles : Change "It is not portable" to "A skilled >> Mechanician may construct a folding Triangle which costs an extra 20% and >> weighs 5 lbs." > >All the suggested backfire clarifications and misc items look good except >this one. This seems silly and atmosphere destroying. The white robes, the >mystical candles, the chanting, the brazier, the exotic ingredients and ... >the collapsable triangle that you slap down on the ground. Furthermore, I >don't see why this is desirable from a game point of view either. The only >point I can see is possibly some people may have portable triangles already >from before the rules were clarified to say they were non-portable. > >Can you justify this proposed change? Not necessarily. I believe the current sentence in the rules was added without being voted in at a God's Meeting. Previous versions of the rules did not specify whether the triangle was portable or not, or even what size it was. The current write up should be voted in as a _change_ in order for it to be retained. I have proposed this to be voted on to decide the matter one way or the other. Reasons for : Removing Curses is hard work, and virtually impossible without a Truesilver triangle. Some characters already have portable triangles. Against : Some people find it "silly and atmosphere destroying". I think the prinicipal decision that needs to be made is : do the GMs want to see players having access to +15% on Curse Removal during an adventure, without returning to the Guild ? Cheers, Brent. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Oct 22 09:47:19 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id JAA08785; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 09:47:19 +1300 Received: from peace.com (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id JAA08776 ; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 09:47:17 +1300 Received: via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/pcnz2.7) id JAA01620; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 09:40:04 +1300 Message-ID: <362E47BF.6E932C46@peace.com> Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 09:44:47 +1300 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5b2 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Miscellaneous Agenda items Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Brent & Sally wrote: > Previous versions of the rules > did not specify whether the triangle was portable or not, or even what size > it was. I think this was just a misunderstanding dating back into the mists of time. Careful reading suggests that the afflicted party was expected to sit inside the "triangle" whilst the Curse Removal was taking place. This rather limits the uses of an orchestral type triangle (which some people seemed to think it was) to removing curses on pixies. The original intention seems to be a "triangle of protection" as described within the College of Greater Summonings, presumably several feet on a side. > Reasons for : > Removing Curses is hard work, and virtually impossible without a > Truesilver triangle. > Some characters already have portable triangles. If it is "virtually impossible" to do a Curse Removal without a Truesilver triangle, then it is no longer a bonus but a necessity. Does this suggest that the removal chances would be better altered than have to have the triangles? > Against : > Some people find it "silly and atmosphere destroying". The idea and nature of a portable triangle need not be "cartoony". Sure, a loon like Mortimer might like to have a portable triangle like an oversized builder's folding ruler, but then that also fits in which his character and mechanical nature (as an aside, I don't have one like this at the moment as I was one of the people who thought that it was a small silver triangle that you presumably made tinkling sounds on as part of the ritual). However, there are many other ways of achieving the same end, but with a different "special effect". A length of Truesilver chain placed on the ground in the shape of a triangle... Truesilver dust/filings (many real world rituals do this with dust or ground corn or whatever), carefully scooped back into a bag at the end of the ritual... Truesilver coins or pebbles/bearings dotted to form a triangle... and I am sure that there would be others. The point is that if we wish to retain these Triangles, and if we wish them to be portable, then they may be of various nature and flavour, fit with the character using them and still all work in much the same way. Cheers, Martin -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Oct 22 10:14:02 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id KAA08866; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 10:14:02 +1300 Received: from aklnt1.cogita.co.nz ([203.98.2.165] (may be forged)) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id KAA08855 ; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 10:14:01 +1300 Received: by cogita.co.nz with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) id ; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 10:06:51 +1300 Message-ID: <31E705B3DD24D111B08600A024A3E58B342908@cogita.co.nz> Subject: RE: Miscellaneous Agenda items Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 10:06:48 +1300 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain From: Neil Davies To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Agreed totally (re natually graceful people etc). And why on earth are we wasting our time on petty things like this that make NO difference to the game, other that to disrupt? I thought there was some process where pointless rule changes and time-spending were avoided, and the important PROBLEMS worked on. Hmm. How do I unsubscribe to this group.... Neil. > -----Original Message----- > From: Martin Dickson [SMTP:martin.dickson@peace.com] > Sent: Thursday, October 22, 1998 9:43 PM > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Subject: Re: Miscellaneous Agenda items > > > 2) 35.1 With the rewrite of the Courtier skill the Agility EP > modifiers > > only seem to apply to the Dance and Seduction skills, so no longer > seem > > appropriate. Remove the +10% for AG < 12 and the -10% for AG > 22. > Change > > Version to 2.1. > > This one I think is worth challenging. One could either argue that AG > was > never appropriate or that it always was and still is. The "blurby" bit > of the > skill may have changed, but the sub-skills remain the same. Logically > AG > never helped or hindered with playing musical instruments, for > instance. > However, I believe that the intention is that naturally graceful > people have > more success in courtly/social situations, and that clumsy folk have a > natural > barrier. > > However, that said, the removal of the 10% bonus/penalty is no huge > thing -- I > just wouldn't do it solely on account of the change to the skills > intro > description. > > Cheers, > Martin > > > > -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Oct 22 10:13:48 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id KAA08845; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 10:13:48 +1300 Received: from mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (mailhost.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.1.4]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id KAA08834 ; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 10:13:46 +1300 Received: from sci4 (lbr-122-42.lbrsc.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.122.42]) by mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (8.9.1/8.9.1/8.9.1-ua) with SMTP id KAA18253 ; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 10:06:36 +1300 (NZDT) Message-Id: <199810212106.KAA18253@mailhost.auckland.ac.nz> Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 10:09:48 +0000 Subject: Re: Miscellaneous Agenda items X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) From: "Michael Parkinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-to: m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. > All the suggested backfire clarifications and misc items look good except > this one. This seems silly and atmosphere destroying. The white robes, the > mystical candles, the chanting, the brazier, the exotic ingredients and ... > the collapsable triangle that you slap down on the ground. Furthermore, I > don't see why this is desirable from a game point of view either. The only > point I can see is possibly some people may have portable triangles already > from before the rules were clarified to say they were non-portable. > > Can you justify this proposed change? 1: The ADDITION ["It is not portable."] did not go through Gods therefore it is THAT proposal which needs justification. [No accusations here -- Minor flaws included, the translation to electronic format has been of stupendous benefit to me, if not all other players] 2: Having said that, Brent has followed correct procedure for any alteration to our currently documented rules. 3: Seeing that you ASK for a justification, here is a wasted morning tea time's worth of unnecessary justification: The ritual, p.37, states that: [Minor:] The Adept must inscribe a triangle or symbol of power about the cursed being ... [Major:]They must inscribe a triangle or symbol of power about the cursed being ... Precious Metals The use of triangles or symbols of power fashioned of varying amounts of precious metals causes an addition to the success percentage ... THEREFORE, here are some deductions based on the rules themselves (form the rules): Assuming that the triangle of precious metal is the triangle which the adept MUST inscribe [ an action], the you can NOT do this by asking the adept to sit on a piece of ground which you have prepared earlier. You must "inscribe a triangle ... about the cursed being". Furthermore, lets estimate the MAXIMUM wieghts of the [qute] "varying amounts of precious metal". 20,000 sp = approx 79 Truesilver guineas which under the rules weighs 158 pennywieght (7.9 ounces, as per section 4.1). Admittedly the original rules, ludicrously had each farthing wieghing a QUARTER OF A POUND, and each TS guinea half that, so that, even under these faulty rules, there was less than 10 lbs of metal -- and that is assuming that there is NO workmanship factor in the triangle price; if there is such a factor, the metal weight obviously falls. Also, if TS guineas are at all impure metal [as coins sometimes were] then, again, the weight falls. Likewise the other triangles weigh LESS than Silver - 1000 dwt (= 50 ounces) Gold - approx 833 dwt (under 42 ounces) Unless the ritual requires this metal to be applied like goldleaf onto solid stone, I can't see how you can justify trying to make the triangles non-portable. PS if you insist that the ritual requires > The white robes, the > mystical candles, the chanting, the brazier, the exotic ingredients and ... please do feel free to submit a proposal to make this compulsory. Personally I prefer to let atmosphere be what the GMs and players make it, mostly within the rules MP Michael Parkinson Assistant Librarian Email: m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz Science Library Phone: (9) 3737 599 x 5858 University of Auckland Fax: (9) 3082 304 -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Oct 22 10:14:03 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id KAA08884; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 10:14:03 +1300 Received: from proxy.telebusiness.co.nz (usr379@proxy.telebusiness.co.nz [203.97.136.12]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id KAA08868 ; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 10:14:02 +1300 Received: by proxy.telebusiness.co.nz with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) id <4AWB25Y0>; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 10:06:35 +1300 Message-ID: <01FAE6CB4A43D0118AB00020AF0F925752A608@proxy.telebusiness.co.nz> Subject: RE: Portable Remove Curse Triangles Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 10:06:34 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) Content-Type: text/plain From: Terry Spencer To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. [Terry Spencer] [snip] > I have proposed this to be voted on to decide the matter one way or the > other. > Reasons for : > Removing Curses is hard work, and virtually impossible without a > Truesilver triangle. > Some characters already have portable triangles. > * Curses are a BAD thing and should be FEARED, but I believe you are overstating the difficulty of the task. From my own observations most people have the ritual at very low ranks and the expectations of these are too high. Its a ritual that you _need_ to rank to be able to use effectively. > Against : > Some people find it "silly and atmosphere destroying". > > I think the prinicipal decision that needs to be made is : do the GMs want > to see players having access to +15% on Curse Removal during an adventure, > without returning to the Guild ? > You also remove many game influencing effects i.e. its a currency that can be used in a game by NPCs. - "I'll let you use by triangle IF you can perform a small favour..." I DO NOT want to see this as a bootstrap that all parties will carry around. Terry -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Oct 22 12:29:12 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id MAA09017; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 12:29:12 +1300 Received: from mail.iconz.co.nz (mail.iconz.co.nz [202.14.100.36]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id MAA09008 ; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 12:29:11 +1300 Received: from mandos (e0.firewall.ak.iconz.net.nz [202.14.100.208]) by mail.iconz.co.nz (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA122630909012119 ; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 12:21:59 +1300 (NZDT) Message-ID: <002e01bdfd49$79cd9cc0$1564a8c0@mandos.ICONZ> Subject: Re: Miscellaneous Agenda items Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 12:21:02 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 From: "Mandos Mitchinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >> Reasons for : >> Removing Curses is hard work, and virtually impossible without a >> Truesilver triangle. >> Some characters already have portable triangles. > >If it is "virtually impossible" to do a Curse Removal without a Truesilver >triangle, then it is no longer a bonus but a necessity. Does this suggest that >the removal chances would be better altered than have to have the triangles? I personally think it is nice to have some things in the game slightly difficult to do. Curse removal can be achieved without truesilver it is just a little less guaranteed which adds some element of exitement to a game that currently is sadly lacking in things difficult enough tohave a chance of failing. I don't believe triangle should be portable as curses should be dangerous and bad rather than an 8hr nuisance. Too many of the hardships of Adventuring are removed to make things easier and I believe it is detracting from the game. Mandos /s -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Oct 22 13:12:29 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id NAA09087; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 13:12:29 +1300 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (root@tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id NAA09070 ; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 13:12:28 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p1-max20.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.101.193]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA11680 ; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 13:05:16 +1300 Message-Id: <199810220005.NAA11680@smtp2.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: EP :The real problem. Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 05:13:07 +1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. ---------- > From: Mandos Mitchinson >Jim wrote: > >I know what you're trying to say, George. I just don't agree with it. A DM > >must weigh his awards critically, rewarding good playing fairly and justly. > >And they must also have an eye to the xp environment they're a part of. > >I haven't seen DM's xp awards as a problem, really. I think this is a > >theoretical problem. I can't think of any cases where what you suggest has > >happened. > > I don't think we are talking quite on the same wavelength yet :-) I am not > sure what problem you are refering to. > > Ill try and explain again..... > > If you give me EP then you do not see that EP again so it is not really a > worry to you how much you give out to me. Hence in this case the amount of > EP is only of concern to the player. > > By the time I get to the next GM I have assimilated the EP you gave me into > the character. All that is of concern to the next GM is the state if that > character after the EP is spent. Thus the EP again is the concern of the > Player not the GM. > > If the GM has no stake in the amount given out and does not need to worry > about the amount when the character is next played it means that the amount > of EP really only effect the player that recieves them, and as such any > discussions regarding the levels of EP given out in the should be done from > the player perspective. Xp can only really effect the player, in the sense that the player gets to choose how that xp will be transformed into other values...And, then what...I mean, it's true enough, but how useful is it. Exactly how do you make the connection that because a player decides how to spend their xp, then that is the perspective to approach it from? And, what are you approaching? If you are saying that one should consider the ramifications and possible effects of what xp can do to a player, then, of course, I find myself in agreement in with you. But, I would have said that was a DM consideration. A player consideration would be more likely be along the lines of 'I like this particular kind of game, and I think everybody else should be playing it, too'... I think that that contention is unsupportable. What do we care how other people decide to run their characters? So long as they're enjoying themselves, who gives a good God damn? Yes, you're right, there's a lot of fun to be had at lower levels of the game. And if you want to play in it for a long time. then that's fine, too. I don't see anybody jumping up and down, saying Dramus should be playing at high level, here. And, clearly, he's been around for long enough and has a college that would lend itself to high level adventure. Jim. Vaguely mystified. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Oct 22 13:12:26 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id NAA09066; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 13:12:26 +1300 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (root@tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id NAA09057 ; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 13:12:25 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p1-max20.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.101.193]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA11672 ; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 13:05:14 +1300 Message-Id: <199810220005.NAA11672@smtp2.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: EP Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 04:58:18 +1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. ---------- > From: Mandos Mitchinson >Jim wrote: > >Well, that's fine for you, George. Other DMs may not have that ability. If > >they don't, then, clearly, their responsibility is to the players they are > >providing the game for. Why should their limitations reduce the enjoyment > >of others? > > > My point here is that stopping a character playing does not have a fraction > of the effect that stopping a player can have on the game. > > I tend to think that the GM's influence on Game enjoyment is surprisingly > limited and that it is the players getting along that has the greater > effect. If the players get along then they will work as an effective team > and will generally be aware of the other players enjoyment. Thus the "level" > of the characters has a negligant effect. Then this particular line of discussion is valueless to the issue at hand, if true. If it is the makeup of the players, rather than their characters abilities, that has more of an effect on the enjoyment of the game, then what does it matter in what way the players spend their xp. If it does matter, surely the DM must exercise some responsibility to the other players. Jim. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Oct 22 14:22:21 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id OAA09191; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 14:22:21 +1300 Received: from mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (mailhost.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.1.4]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id OAA09180 ; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 14:22:19 +1300 Received: from sci4 (lbr-122-42.lbrsc.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.122.42]) by mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (8.9.1/8.9.1/8.9.1-ua) with SMTP id OAA22621 ; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 14:15:08 +1300 (NZDT) Message-Id: <199810220115.OAA22621@mailhost.auckland.ac.nz> Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 14:18:21 +0000 Subject: Re: Miscellaneous Agenda items X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) From: "Michael Parkinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-to: m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. You're missing the point -- > From: "Mandos Mitchinson" > >> Reasons for : > >> Removing Curses is hard work, and virtually impossible without a > >> Truesilver triangle. > >> Some characters already have portable triangles. > > > >If it is "virtually impossible" to do a Curse Removal without a Truesilver > >triangle, then it is no longer a bonus but a necessity. Does this suggest > that > >the removal chances would be better altered than have to have the > triangles? > > I personally think it is nice to have some things in the game slightly > difficult to do. You're not listening: We're talking about "virtually impossible" NOT merely difficult. Curse removal can be achieved without truesilver it is just > a little less guaranteed which adds some element of exitement to a game that > currently is sadly lacking in things difficult enough tohave a chance of > failing. A "little less guaranteed" -- excessive litotes. Have you actually ever tried to remove a curse in game? Or have you always had helpful NPCs My character has MAXIMUM racial MA, Rank 11 Purification, Rank 8 with a 500 multiplier Ritual. His chance of removing a Death-curse is only (36-MA of curse) %. Read the rules on what happens when you fail. Such a curse-removal is NEVER be an option, on adventure. I don't believe triangle should be portable as curses should be > dangerous and bad rather than an 8hr nuisance. It takes 18 hours to remove a greater curse, not merely 6. In my experience parties are less likely to have the time to remove curses "immediately" Michael Michael Parkinson Assistant Librarian Email: m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz Science Library Phone: (9) 3737 599 x 5858 University of Auckland Fax: (9) 3082 304 -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Oct 22 16:09:24 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id QAA09315; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 16:09:24 +1300 Received: from peace.com (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id QAA09306 ; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 16:09:21 +1300 Received: via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/pcnz2.7) id QAA24223; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 16:02:06 +1300 Orig-Sender: Michael.Woodhams@peace.com Message-ID: <362EA02D.1176983A@peace.co.nz> Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 16:02:06 +1300 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05C-SGI [en] (X11; I; IRIX 6.5 IP32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Miscellaneous Agenda items Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Michael Woodhams To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: Michael.Woodhams@peace.com X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Brent & Sally wrote: > >> 3) 10.3 Remove Curse Triangles : Change "It is not portable" to "A skilled > >> Mechanician may construct a folding Triangle which costs an extra 20% and > >> weighs 5 lbs." > > >Can you justify this proposed change? > > Not necessarily. I believe the current sentence in the rules was added > without being voted in at a God's Meeting. Previous versions of the rules > [...] > I have proposed this to be voted on to decide the matter one way or the > other. I had forgotten that the non-portable bit was not voted on. I suggest the proposal be reworded into a vote on whether curse removal triangles are portable, and the exact nature of the triangle (small musical instrument, gilding on rock surface, chain, whatever) can be sorted out afterwards, if more clarification is needed. I very much prefer Martin's suggestions to the folding triangle. > Reasons for : > Removing Curses is hard work, and virtually impossible without a > Truesilver triangle. I don't have the rules on hand, but my gut feel is a competant mage with rank 6 remove curse and no triangle should have a moderate (about 30%) chance of removing a backfire but almost no chance on a greater curse.At rank 15, there should be a good chance on a backfire (about 80%) and some chance on a greater curse (about 30%-50%, but you would have to be desperate to try because you will likely increase the MA of the curse.) I don't think major curse removal is something you do in the field by choice, rather like major surgery. > Against : > Some people find it "silly and atmosphere destroying". Some think that it should be significantly harder to remove a curse in the field compared to back at a well equiped base. Michael W. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Oct 22 19:46:31 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id TAA09569; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 19:46:31 +1300 Received: from mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (mailhost.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.1.4]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id TAA09560 ; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 19:46:30 +1300 Received: from sci4 (lbr-122-42.lbrsc.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.122.42]) by mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (8.9.1/8.9.1/8.9.1-ua) with SMTP id TAA26057 ; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 19:39:18 +1300 (NZDT) Message-Id: <199810220639.TAA26057@mailhost.auckland.ac.nz> Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 19:42:33 +0000 Subject: Re: Curse removal #1 X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) From: "Michael Parkinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-to: m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Dear All, Michael Woodhams wrote: > I don't have the rules on hand, but my gut feel is a competant mage with rank 6 > remove curse and no triangle should have a moderate (about 30%) chance of > removing a backfire but almost no chance on a greater curse.At rank 15, there > should be a good chance on a backfire (about 80%) and some chance on a greater > curse (about 30%-50%, but you would have to be desperate to try because you will > likely increase the MA of the curse.) I don't think major curse removal is > something you do in the field by choice, rather like major surgery. This is probably the best approach (NOT that I particularly agree with the figures). It may be desirable, though a hellish effort, in the long-ish run to decide what we want and then have factors/modifiers to reflect that effect. Again I remind you that this is a Special knowledge ritual at 500 EM -- i.e. a LONG time to rank and VERY expensive in EP.. There are very few Special rituals which are as expensive, or more so, namely: E&E: Permanency (550); Mind: Binding Elements (600); Earth: Binding Earth (500); Necro: Shaping flesh golem (500); Rune: Binding Elements (500); Plus the NPC Gtr Summ: Earls (500), Marquises (550), Kings (600). With these compare the Base chances & power of the ritual and you'll see how ineffective Curse removal is, by comparison, Rank for Rank. regards, Michael Michael Parkinson Assistant Librarian Email: m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz Science Library Phone: (9) 3737 599 x 5858 University of Auckland Fax: (9) 3082 304 -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Oct 22 20:18:04 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id UAA09631; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 20:18:04 +1300 Received: from mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (mailhost.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.1.4]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id UAA09620 ; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 20:18:03 +1300 Received: from sci4 (lbr-122-42.lbrsc.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.122.42]) by mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (8.9.1/8.9.1/8.9.1-ua) with SMTP id UAA27509 ; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 20:10:50 +1300 (NZDT) Message-Id: <199810220710.UAA27509@mailhost.auckland.ac.nz> Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 20:14:06 +0000 Subject: Re: Curse removal comparisons X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) From: "Michael Parkinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-to: m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Dear All, An other way to look at how expensive the Remove Curse Ritual is (in e.p.) A mage of minimum ep for their college could EITHER gain the following ranks in Remove Curse [to the nearest Rank] OR rank all their specific college's General knowledge Talents, spells & rituals to Rank 6. Rk 11: Earth; Rk 13: Air, Cel, Fire, [Gtr Summ]; Rk 14: Ice; Rk 15: Bard, Illusion; Rk 16: Binder, Water, Necro; Rk 17: Mind; Rk 18: Rune, Witch; Rk 19: E&E Rk 20: Namer Michael was suggesting a competent mage (say MA=20). In which case the ranks in Remove Curse are "only" Rk 10: Earth; Rk 11: Air; Rk 12: Cel, Fire, Ice, [Gtr Summ]; Rk 13: Illusion; Rk 14: Bard, Binder; Rk 15: Mind, Water,Necro; Rk 17: E&E, Rune, Witch; Rk 18: Namer If the mage is more adept (MA=24), the ranks in Remove Curse are a mere Rk 9: Earth; Rk 10: Air, Cel, Fire, [Gtr Summ]; Rk 11: Ice; Rk 12: Bard, Illusion; Rk 13: Binder, Water, Necro; Rk 14: Mind; Rk 15: E&E, Namer, Rune, Witch; Conclusion: Curse Removal's EP price, for the current effect/chances, is imbalanced. Some parameters should be altered. regards, Michael. Michael Parkinson Assistant Librarian Email: m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz Science Library Phone: (9) 3737 599 x 5858 University of Auckland Fax: (9) 3082 304 -- See message headers to unsubscribe from --