From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 27 09:44:12 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id JAA14731; Tue, 27 Oct 1998 09:44:12 +1300 Received: from kcbbs.gen.nz (kcbbs.gen.nz [202.14.102.1]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id JAA14721 ; Tue, 27 Oct 1998 09:44:11 +1300 Received: from LOCALNAME (as5200-34.kcbbs.gen.nz [202.14.102.64]) by kcbbs.gen.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA15605 ; Tue, 27 Oct 1998 09:33:20 +1300 (NZDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.16.19981027093328.2d07d67a@kcbbs.gen.nz> X-Sender: salient@kcbbs.gen.nz X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (16) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 09:33:28 Subject: Mechanician Traps Proposal Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: Brent & Sally To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Minor change from last version submitted. Added clarification that all facets of the spell stored need to be specified at the time of storage. Background ---------- I have been attempting to use the Spell Containment ability in the Merchanician skill (version 2.0). The current explanation lacks enough detail to be able to answer basic questions about the process. Reason for changes ------------------ Defined the materials and methods used to construct a magical trap. Removed the conflict between used items being "worthless" but being able to "reclaim their metal content". Presented a proposal for the October Gods Meeting, and was informed that "the clarifications are good but it was felt that the numbers should be left alone". Proposal -------- 1) Change the Mechanician version number to 2.1. 2) Number the headings in 39.4 to make reading and locating abilities easier. Replace "39.4 Special Abilities" with "39.4 Complex Locks", "39.5 Trap Construction", and "39.6 Spell Containment". 3) Replace the current paragraphs entitled "Spell Containment" with : Construction - The Mechanician with the "Spell Containment" and "Fine Materials" abilities can build a mechanical device into which a spell can be stored. The device is usually referred to as a magical trap, or a spell container. The device is made out of silver, truesilver or starsilver. Often the device is built inside or incorporating other materials with which the mechanician is familiar. Spell Storage - A single charge of a suitable spell may be stored in the trap or container by an Adept successfully casting a spell into the device after performing Ritual Spell Preparation. A double or triple effect stores an enhanced spell as specified by the Adept. A failure has no effect. A backfire affects the adept as normal, and also results in the device being damaged so that 20% more time and materials are required before another try at storing a spell may be attempted. The spell to be stored must include a Storage type of "Magical Trap". Triggering - The precise actions that will trigger the device must be specified at the time that the device is constructed. When these actions are performed the spell is released. The spell stored must either affect only the entity or object that triggered the release of the spell, or affect an area in relation to the device. All variable spell effects, such as direction and volume affected, must be defined at the time of storage. Once the spell has been triggered the device is useless, although metal equal to 10% of the cost may be recovered. If the spell is dissipated, then 20% of the cost may be recovered. Formulae : Time to construct : 25 - (2 x Mechanician Rank) hours Time to store spell : (Spell Rank - Mechanician Rank) hours, (minimum 1, and maximum 10). Cost : (Spell Rank (minimum 1) x Spell EM) + 100 sp. Minimum Weight : (16 - Mechanician Rank) ounces. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 27 11:44:48 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id LAA14921; Tue, 27 Oct 1998 11:44:48 +1300 Received: from smtp.worley.co.nz (smtp.worley.co.nz [202.36.210.250]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id LAA14912 ; Tue, 27 Oct 1998 11:44:45 +1300 Received: by smtp.worley.co.nz(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.1 (569.2 2-6-1998)) id 4C2566A9.0081E143 ; Tue, 27 Oct 1998 11:38:38 +1200 X-Lotus-FromDomain: WORLEY CONSULTANTS Message-ID: <4C2566A9.0080F2DE.00@smtp.worley.co.nz> Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 11:36:59 +1200 Subject: Re: Increasing stats Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline From: amtennant@worley.co.nz To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >> >FT is not a primary stat, it is a secondary stat. I believe that FT was >> >never imagined as having a racial limit. I believe that it was intended >> >that FT could be raised one point a season or adventure, whichever is >> >less. >>I asked the question about FT having a racial limit quite a while back >>and was told that it was the FT value equated from the racial maximum EN. >>This is as stated in section 2.1 of the rulebook, straight after the FT/EN >>table. >You are either using the edited version of the rules, or a copy of the >original system that I haven't seen. In the copy of rulebook I have read, >it does not say that there is a limit on FT anywhere. I'm not saying that >such a rule is not inferrable, but I am saying that it is not an explicit >rule, and I believe that we have not interpreted the rule as it was >intended. In DQ, version 2 ( the original book - penguin addition ) it has the max fatigue in bold and states that this is racial max or some such, but as you say... >However, that's pretty irrelevant, really. The main point is that taking >the limit off of FT is pretty harmless, and does all the right things. I >don't see why the rule isn't changed, really. It would tend to give value >to being a senior adventure... People seem to not like characters having lots of fatigue. We've just seen SoS be cut back as the major infringer in this area. This change of lifting the lid off FT would mean that the sights would be re-targeted on Wicca Restoratives instead for dealing to. The only problem I can see with having no FT limit is that it makes things even more D&Dish than they already are although, admittedly, they already are quite similar. DQ, through using a hit point system, is a very "you're up or you're down" kind of system with a vague distinction when you run out of FT. I don't mind this on the High level games because it's more amusing and heroic. Just some thoughts. L8R, Adam. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 27 11:53:01 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id LAA14957; Tue, 27 Oct 1998 11:53:01 +1300 Received: from date.palm.cri.nz (date.palm.cri.nz [161.66.1.20]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id LAA14946 ; Tue, 27 Oct 1998 11:52:59 +1300 Received: from mail1.marc.cri.nz (mail1.marc.cri.nz [161.29.1.1]) by date.palm.cri.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA01749 ; Tue, 27 Oct 1998 11:45:31 +1300 (NZDT) Received: from hra1.marc.cri.nz (unverified [161.29.1.5]) by mail1.marc.cri.nz (Dr Solomon's SMTPRS 2.0.15) with ESMTP id ; Tue, 27 Oct 1998 11:42:04 +1300 Message-Id: Received: from HRA1/SpoolDir by hra1.marc.cri.nz (Mercury 1.31); 27 Oct 98 11:45:43 GMT+12 Received: from SpoolDir by HRA1 (Mercury 1.31); 27 Oct 98 11:45:37 GMT+12 Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 11:45:32 GMT+1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Increasing stats X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01b) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT From: "Bart Janssen" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Hi All someone wrote > >1. Most primary stat ONLY which may be raised to maximum of [initial+5] > >2. A character's player may nominate ONE primary stat ONLY which may be > >raised beyond normal maximum of [initial+5] > >3. The cost of increasing that one stat is exhorbitant, say: 6th point > >costs 10,000; 7th point costs 15,000; etc. > >4. No stat may exceed racial maximum. Jaqui replied > I personally feel that restricting the ability to raise stats more than 5 > points to just one stat is really a bit too biased in favour of low MA > fighters who discover that they now want to get real and learn a college > (-; I agree. What this would do is force all the fighters into one path where they increase MA to become mages in later life. Less limitations on EP use not more. Allowing them to increase all stats causes people to make different choices. > Admittedlyn they are the group who suffer most with the top-out problem, > but I'd personally prefer a more even-handed approach - simply allow any > character to add the first five points for the listed cost (5000 or 2500) > then double for the sixth point, triple for the seventh etc. This is the option I favour as well. When you look at the costs not many mages will choose to increase stats above the 5 point max rather than ranking spells. The net effect is that pure fighters will become really big tough dudes....unless they choose to become mages in later life at which point they are faced with the same decisions as mages. While it doesn't address many of the issues of top out it does help solve one problem. Oh yeah for those people arguing that because they haven't personally experienced top out, it can't exist, I have experienced it and it does exist. To argue that because you haven't personally experienced something then it can't be real is somewhat shortsighted. Rather than making all characters look the same as has been suggested I think allowing extreme stats will cause characters to become more extreme and more different. Unfortunately unless we carry out the experiemtn and allow stats to increase we will never know which position matches reality. A corrolary of that hypothesis is that racial maximums should also be removed in favour of a number beyond which costs increase by a significant amount. That way you will get characters who will save up EP just because they want the best XX stat in the guild, thus becoming even more divergent from their fellows. Since we've worked reasonably hard to make sure that stats over racial maximums don't distort the game anymore there is no mechanical reason not to allow it. > At the same time we could remove the racial maximums for fatigue. This > should mean the effective elimination of top-out. At least in the stats > department. So long as we don't get into the stupid AD&D hit points range increasing FT is also reasonable even though it isn't a primary stat. Again the racial maximums for fatigue that are stated in the rules (despite statements to the contrary) should be waived providing there is a point where the costs increase significantly. I'd suggest the following numbers. EP may be used to increase stats as follows Each point below normal racial limits and less than 5 points above the original stat 5000 per point. Each point more than 5 points above original stat value, and below normal racial limits, costs an additional 5000 (ie 6th point 10000, 7th point 15000, 8th point 20000 ...). Each point above normal racial limits costs a premium of 20000 (ie 4th point above original would cost 5000 unless it were over racial norms in which case it would cost 25000). Costs for increasing Ft are halved Alternatively, an even simpler suggestion. The experience multiple for increasing stats is as follows primary stats (PS, AG, MD, WP, EN) 5000 Fatigue 2500 If raising the stat above normal racial limits the cost is doubled. Because you use an ep multiple costs increase naturally. The minus to the 2nd proposal is that those characters who have already increased their stats effectively gain relative to any who choose to increase their stats from now on. Unless you want to do conversions, which wouldn't be hard. cheers Bart Saying Windows 95 is equal to Macintosh is like finding a potato that looks like Jesus and believing you've witnessed the second coming. -- Guy Kawasaki Bart Janssen Hort+Research Private Bag 92169 Auckland New Zealand ph 64 9 8154200 x 7279 fax 64 9 8154201 -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 27 12:47:05 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id MAA15029; Tue, 27 Oct 1998 12:47:05 +1300 Received: from peace.com (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id MAA15019 ; Tue, 27 Oct 1998 12:47:02 +1300 Received: via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/pcnz2.7) id MAA16891; Tue, 27 Oct 1998 12:39:03 +1300 Message-ID: <36350949.D1B525A5@peace.com> Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 12:44:09 +1300 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5b2 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Increasing stats Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Bart Janssen wrote: > Alternatively, an even simpler suggestion. > The experience multiple for increasing stats is as follows > primary stats (PS, AG, MD, WP, EN) 5000 > Fatigue 2500 > If raising the stat above normal racial limits the cost is doubled. > > Because you use an ep multiple costs increase naturally. An EM of 5,000 (or 2,500 for FT) seems a tad too high, IMHO. Currently 5 points of stat may be purchased for 25,000 ep. At an EM of 5,000 the same 5 point swould cost 75,000 ep. Another way of working out the same thing would be to divide 25,000 (current cost) by 15 (1+2+3+4+5) to get an EM... hmmm... 1,666.66666... not a great EM. :) But perhaps something in the 1,500 to 2,000 range would be OK. 5 points at 1,500 = 22,500. 5 points at 1,700 = 25,500. 5 points at 2,000 = 30,000 This makes buying the first couple of points more attractive that it currently is, and makes further points the domain of the dedicated few. If it is considered desirable to allow increases past (normal) species max then as Bart suggested a simple premium could be added. It may be that FT is undervalued at half the cost of other stats. It is not as useful to a fighter as EN (it doesn't alter Stun or Death) but it has an excellent use for mages (allows casting). I am all for closing FT loopholes. The major outstanding one is Create Restorative -- and this is only becuase we couldn't quite decide how to deal to it. I am still keen on the idea of some of the EN loss being Grevious, but would be interested to see if anyone else has another idea. It may even be that it would be desirable to lose its casting FT regain property altogether -- although this would make it into just yet another healing potion, which is a little dull. Suggestions/solutions appreciated. Cheers, Martin -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 27 12:58:40 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id MAA15074; Tue, 27 Oct 1998 12:58:40 +1300 Received: from fep2-orange.clear.net.nz (fep2-orange.clear.net.nz [203.97.32.2]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id MAA15063 ; Tue, 27 Oct 1998 12:58:38 +1300 Received: from qed_akl_nt_1.qed.co.nz ([203.97.23.141]) by fep2-orange.clear.net.nz (1.5/1.9) with ESMTP id MAA08931; Tue, 27 Oct 1998 12:50:09 +1300 (NZDT) Received: by qed_akl_nt_1.qed.co.nz with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) id ; Tue, 27 Oct 1998 12:50:48 +1300 Message-ID: <15A7D8BC5E3ED2119E2E0000F82150FC0109BE@qed_akl_nt_1.qed.co.nz> Subject: RE: Increasing stats Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 12:50:38 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain From: Stephen Martin To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. About 2 or 3 years ago a proposal to ease the 5 point limit was made (I don't remember who by), I recall it being voted in, but it was not minuted (I don't know if anyone was minuting the meeting at all) and it got lost amongst the production of the first reprint of the rulebook. That proposal was that the first 5 points cost as now, the next 5 cost double that, the next 5 cost triple etc. [Anecdote Ends] I'm in favour of lifting the 5 point limit and introducing a progressively increasing cost. This means that everyone sets their own limits based on how their character values their stats relative to other aspects of their development. Either: As now for the first 5, double for the 6th, triple for the 7th, etc. Or an EM. 2,000 EM means that raising 5 points costs 30,000 which is similar to the current cost. I'm undecided as to whether EN should continue to be cheaper. FT should be EM 1,500 (1,000 is half but it seems too cheap). Racial limits should still apply in either case, you shouldn't be able to exceed racial limits just by spending EP. Stats in excess of racial limit should only be gained (or made possible) through adventuring. Cheers, Stephen. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 27 13:34:14 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id NAA15124; Tue, 27 Oct 1998 13:34:14 +1300 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (root@tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id NAA15114 ; Tue, 27 Oct 1998 13:34:11 +1300 Received: from phaeton.ihug.co.nz (p26-max34.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.105.90]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA06005 ; Tue, 27 Oct 1998 13:26:10 +1300 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19981027132226.007c36c0@pop.ihug.co.nz> X-Sender: phaeton@pop.ihug.co.nz X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 13:22:26 +1300 Subject: RE: Increasing stats Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: Keith Smith To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >About 2 or 3 years ago a proposal to ease the 5 point limit was made (I >don't remember who by), I recall it being voted in, but it was not >minuted (I don't know if anyone was minuting the meeting at all) and it >got lost amongst the production of the first reprint of the rulebook. > >That proposal was that the first 5 points cost as now, the next 5 cost >double that, the next 5 cost triple etc. Anyone else remember this? I've gone through my archives and can't see any mention of it in the minutes or proposals. Keith (phaeton@ihug.co.nz) -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 27 13:37:36 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id NAA15155; Tue, 27 Oct 1998 13:37:36 +1300 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (root@tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id NAA15146 ; Tue, 27 Oct 1998 13:37:35 +1300 Received: from phaeton.ihug.co.nz (p26-max34.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.105.90]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA06670 ; Tue, 27 Oct 1998 13:29:35 +1300 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19981027132552.007ba8b0@pop.ihug.co.nz> X-Sender: phaeton@pop.ihug.co.nz X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 13:25:52 +1300 Subject: Re: Increasing stats Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: Keith Smith To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >In DQ, version 2 ( the original book - penguin addition ) it has the max >fatigue in bold and states that this is racial max or some such, but as you >say... It's also in our current edition. Keith (phaeton@ihug.co.nz) -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 27 16:01:21 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id QAA15269; Tue, 27 Oct 1998 16:01:21 +1300 Received: from smtp.worley.co.nz (smtp.worley.co.nz [202.36.210.250]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id QAA15259 ; Tue, 27 Oct 1998 16:01:18 +1300 Received: by smtp.worley.co.nz(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.1 (569.2 2-6-1998)) id 4C2566AA.0015877B ; Tue, 27 Oct 1998 15:55:09 +1200 X-Lotus-FromDomain: WORLEY CONSULTANTS Message-ID: <4C2566AA.00149654.00@smtp.worley.co.nz> Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 15:53:28 +1200 Subject: Re: Increasing stats Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline From: amtennant@worley.co.nz To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >> Alternatively, an even simpler suggestion. >> The experience multiple for increasing stats is as follows >> primary stats (PS, AG, MD, WP, EN) 5000 >> Fatigue 2500 >> If raising the stat above normal racial limits the cost is doubled. >> Because you use an ep multiple costs increase naturally. >An EM of 5,000 (or 2,500 for FT) seems a tad too high, IMHO. What! Are you going soft in your old age, Martin? Make it 10,000, damn it! And characters will be happy, or else! >Currently 5 points of stat may be purchased for 25,000 ep. At an EM of 5,000 the >same 5 point swould cost 75,000 ep. 5 points for only 75000?!?! Luxury! Where do I sign? >But perhaps something in the 1,500 to 2,000 range would be OK. I can feel that a beating may be necessary to toughen you up a little.... >5 points at 1,500 = 22,500. 5 points at 1,700 = 25,500. 5 points at 2,000 = >30,000 >This makes buying the first couple of points more attractive that it currently is, >and makes further points the domain of the dedicated few. Why not make it the domain of the truly fanatical? It would mean that only really high level characters, TOS sufferers or complete psychopaths would fork out 30 or 40 grand for a stat point. >If it is considered >desirable to allow increases past (normal) species max then as Bart suggested a >simple premium could be added. I'm undecided about going over racial max. If you don't allow it, you'll get people ( or should that be madmen with 25's everywhere ). If you do allow it, you'd have to put a ceiling of 25 MA on spell discounts or you'll get people who get EP back when they rank generals.... :) >It may be that FT is undervalued at half the cost of other stats. It is not as >useful to a fighter as EN (it doesn't alter Stun or Death) but it has an excellent >use for mages (allows casting). Make them all 5000 ( at least ). [ Restoratives ] Tricky. The Spec Grev damage is the only reasonable idea at the moment I think. You could do it like Herbalist potions I guess, but that's a bit too much "the sameness". L8R, Adam "The Mad" Tennant. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 27 16:34:01 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id QAA15316; Tue, 27 Oct 1998 16:34:01 +1300 Received: from mail.iconz.co.nz (mail.iconz.co.nz [202.14.100.36]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id QAA15305 ; Tue, 27 Oct 1998 16:34:00 +1300 Received: from mandos (e0.firewall.ak.iconz.net.nz [202.14.100.208]) by mail.iconz.co.nz (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA271220909458747 ; Tue, 27 Oct 1998 16:25:49 +1300 (NZDT) Message-ID: <018701be0159$5d055420$1564a8c0@mandos.ICONZ> Subject: Stat Costs. Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 16:24:41 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 From: "Mandos Mitchinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Why are we worrying about Stat costs? Changing Stats will not effect a characters TOS. The ability to raise stats higher simply makes the numbers stupider at the top end of the game. The thing that affects TOS is someTHING for the character to do to change and develop not a place to dump EP. Raising Stats will not affect the game in any positive way, it will only give those who play to extemes go further into the extremes and heighten the already annoying problem of escalation in DQ. Mandos /s -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 27 16:49:50 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id QAA15356; Tue, 27 Oct 1998 16:49:50 +1300 Received: from date.palm.cri.nz (date.palm.cri.nz [161.66.1.20]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id QAA15346 ; Tue, 27 Oct 1998 16:49:47 +1300 Received: from mail1.marc.cri.nz (mail1.marc.cri.nz [161.29.1.1]) by date.palm.cri.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA04937 ; Tue, 27 Oct 1998 16:42:16 +1300 (NZDT) Received: from hra1.marc.cri.nz (unverified [161.29.1.5]) by mail1.marc.cri.nz (Dr Solomon's SMTPRS 2.0.15) with ESMTP id ; Tue, 27 Oct 1998 16:38:49 +1300 Message-Id: Received: from HRA1/SpoolDir by hra1.marc.cri.nz (Mercury 1.31); 27 Oct 98 16:42:29 GMT+12 Received: from SpoolDir by HRA1 (Mercury 1.31); 27 Oct 98 16:42:23 GMT+12 Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 16:42:17 GMT+1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Increasing stats X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01b) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT From: "Bart Janssen" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Adam wrote > People seem to not like characters having lots of fatigue. We've just seen > SoS be cut back as the major infringer in this area. SoS was changed to EN to stop a serious Infinate fatigue loop with multiple healers and earth mages. > This change of lifting the lid off FT would mean that the sights would be > re-targeted on Wicca Restoratives instead for dealing to. Allowing characters to invest in Ft would not lead to such a loop and if you made sure the costs kept increasing then there would a natural limit except for some real loony buggers who might decide that 50000 per point was OK. > The only problem I can see with having no FT limit is that it makes things > even more D&Dish than they already are although, admittedly, they already > are quite similar. I can't see characters taking Ft to much more than double current values and even then the cost would be enormous. The nice thing is that characters would have widely variable Ft values rather than the current narrow range between 16 and 28. cheers Bart Saying Windows 95 is equal to Macintosh is like finding a potato that looks like Jesus and believing you've witnessed the second coming. -- Guy Kawasaki Bart Janssen Hort+Research Private Bag 92169 Auckland New Zealand ph 64 9 8154200 x 7279 fax 64 9 8154201 -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 27 17:27:16 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id RAA15430; Tue, 27 Oct 1998 17:27:16 +1300 Received: from date.palm.cri.nz (date.palm.cri.nz [161.66.1.20]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id RAA15421 ; Tue, 27 Oct 1998 17:27:15 +1300 Received: from mail1.marc.cri.nz (mail1.marc.cri.nz [161.29.1.1]) by date.palm.cri.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA05346 ; Tue, 27 Oct 1998 17:19:43 +1300 (NZDT) Received: from hra1.marc.cri.nz (unverified [161.29.1.5]) by mail1.marc.cri.nz (Dr Solomon's SMTPRS 2.0.15) with ESMTP id ; Tue, 27 Oct 1998 17:16:06 +1300 Message-Id: Received: from HRA1/SpoolDir by hra1.marc.cri.nz (Mercury 1.31); 27 Oct 98 17:19:45 GMT+12 Received: from SpoolDir by HRA1 (Mercury 1.31); 27 Oct 98 17:19:43 GMT+12 Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 17:19:38 GMT+1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: Increasing stats X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01b) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT From: "Bart Janssen" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Stephen wrote > Racial limits should still apply in either case, you shouldn't be able > to exceed racial limits just by spending EP. Stats in excess of racial > limit should only be gained (or made possible) through adventuring. The problem with doing this is that eventually all characters become the same (ie racial max in all stats), this is very bad. If you allow characters to exceed racial max at punitive cost then characters will specialise. why should we care if a human becomes more agile than a normal elf? cheers Bart Saying Windows 95 is equal to Macintosh is like finding a potato that looks like Jesus and believing you've witnessed the second coming. -- Guy Kawasaki Bart Janssen Hort+Research Private Bag 92169 Auckland New Zealand ph 64 9 8154200 x 7279 fax 64 9 8154201 -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 27 17:25:11 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id RAA15407; Tue, 27 Oct 1998 17:25:11 +1300 Received: from date.palm.cri.nz (date.palm.cri.nz [161.66.1.20]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id RAA15397 ; Tue, 27 Oct 1998 17:25:10 +1300 Received: from mail1.marc.cri.nz (mail1.marc.cri.nz [161.29.1.1]) by date.palm.cri.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA05338 ; Tue, 27 Oct 1998 17:17:41 +1300 (NZDT) Received: from hra1.marc.cri.nz (unverified [161.29.1.5]) by mail1.marc.cri.nz (Dr Solomon's SMTPRS 2.0.15) with ESMTP id ; Tue, 27 Oct 1998 17:14:07 +1300 Message-Id: Received: from HRA1/SpoolDir by hra1.marc.cri.nz (Mercury 1.31); 27 Oct 98 17:17:47 GMT+12 Received: from SpoolDir by HRA1 (Mercury 1.31); 27 Oct 98 17:17:24 GMT+12 Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 17:17:18 GMT+1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: Increasing stats X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01b) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT From: "Bart Janssen" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Date sent: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 13:22:26 +1300 Subject: RE: Increasing stats From: Keith Smith To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Send reply to: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > > >About 2 or 3 years ago a proposal to ease the 5 point limit was made (I > >don't remember who by), I recall it being voted in, but it was not > >minuted (I don't know if anyone was minuting the meeting at all) and it > >got lost amongst the production of the first reprint of the rulebook. > > > >That proposal was that the first 5 points cost as now, the next 5 cost > >double that, the next 5 cost triple etc. > > Anyone else remember this? I've gone through my archives and can't see any > mention of it in the minutes or proposals. Yup I was there cheers Bart Saying Windows 95 is equal to Macintosh is like finding a potato that looks like Jesus and believing you've witnessed the second coming. -- Guy Kawasaki Bart Janssen Hort+Research Private Bag 92169 Auckland New Zealand ph 64 9 8154200 x 7279 fax 64 9 8154201 -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 27 17:31:15 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id RAA15465; Tue, 27 Oct 1998 17:31:15 +1300 Received: from date.palm.cri.nz (date.palm.cri.nz [161.66.1.20]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id RAA15456 ; Tue, 27 Oct 1998 17:31:09 +1300 Received: from mail1.marc.cri.nz (mail1.marc.cri.nz [161.29.1.1]) by date.palm.cri.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA05378 ; Tue, 27 Oct 1998 17:23:40 +1300 (NZDT) Received: from hra1.marc.cri.nz (unverified [161.29.1.5]) by mail1.marc.cri.nz (Dr Solomon's SMTPRS 2.0.15) with ESMTP id ; Tue, 27 Oct 1998 17:20:05 +1300 Message-Id: Received: from HRA1/SpoolDir by hra1.marc.cri.nz (Mercury 1.31); 27 Oct 98 17:23:44 GMT+12 Received: from SpoolDir by HRA1 (Mercury 1.31); 27 Oct 98 17:23:41 GMT+12 Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 17:23:33 GMT+1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Increasing stats X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01b) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT From: "Bart Janssen" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. > Bart Janssen wrote: > > > Alternatively, an even simpler suggestion. > > The experience multiple for increasing stats is as follows > > primary stats (PS, AG, MD, WP, EN) 5000 > > Fatigue 2500 > > If raising the stat above normal racial limits the cost is doubled. > > > > Because you use an ep multiple costs increase naturally. Martin wrote > An EM of 5,000 (or 2,500 for FT) seems a tad too high, IMHO. > > Currently 5 points of stat may be purchased for 25,000 ep. At an EM of 5,000 the > same 5 point swould cost 75,000 ep. > > Another way of working out the same thing would be to divide 25,000 (current cost) > by 15 (1+2+3+4+5) to get an EM... hmmm... 1,666.66666... not a great EM. :) > > But perhaps something in the 1,500 to 2,000 range would be OK. > > 5 points at 1,500 = 22,500. 5 points at 1,700 = 25,500. 5 points at 2,000 = > 30,000 All fine but it means that the 6th point cost ONLY 12000 and that IMO (nothing humble about me) is way too low. with a 5000 multiple the 6th point costs 30000, or roughly all the ep from a single adventure which is kind of what I would expect. If they went over normal racial limits with that it would cost 60000 or two adventures worth which again is kind of reasonable. Of course you have to be an idiot (or a roleplayer) to pay that. > This makes buying the first couple of points more attractive that it currently is, > and makes further points the domain of the dedicated few. If it is considered > desirable to allow increases past (normal) species max then as Bart suggested a > simple premium could be added. Nah not punitive enough :) > It may be that FT is undervalued at half the cost of other stats. It is not as > useful to a fighter as EN (it doesn't alter Stun or Death) but it has an excellent > use for mages (allows casting). possibly true cheers Bart Saying Windows 95 is equal to Macintosh is like finding a potato that looks like Jesus and believing you've witnessed the second coming. -- Guy Kawasaki Bart Janssen Hort+Research Private Bag 92169 Auckland New Zealand ph 64 9 8154200 x 7279 fax 64 9 8154201 -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 27 17:40:28 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id RAA15540; Tue, 27 Oct 1998 17:40:28 +1300 Received: from date.palm.cri.nz (date.palm.cri.nz [161.66.1.20]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id RAA15527 ; Tue, 27 Oct 1998 17:40:00 +1300 Received: from mail1.marc.cri.nz (mail1.marc.cri.nz [161.29.1.1]) by date.palm.cri.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA05482 ; Tue, 27 Oct 1998 17:32:31 +1300 (NZDT) Received: from hra1.marc.cri.nz (unverified [161.29.1.5]) by mail1.marc.cri.nz (Dr Solomon's SMTPRS 2.0.15) with ESMTP id ; Tue, 27 Oct 1998 17:29:03 +1300 Message-Id: Received: from HRA1/SpoolDir by hra1.marc.cri.nz (Mercury 1.31); 27 Oct 98 17:32:42 GMT+12 Received: from SpoolDir by HRA1 (Mercury 1.31); 27 Oct 98 17:32:29 GMT+12 Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 17:32:20 GMT+1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Stat Costs. X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01b) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT From: "Bart Janssen" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Mandos wrote > Why are we worrying about Stat costs? It's a style thing and it's a concept thing. At present the concept is that everything has an absolute maximum. That concept creates a situation where specialist characters top out. The stat issue is about those characters whose design was to be as strong/dextrous/agile/magically apt/...... as possible. At present that is not possible. What I'm suggesting is that we fix it. > Changing Stats will not effect a characters TOS. The ability to raise stats > higher simply makes the numbers stupider at the top end of the game. The > thing that affects TOS is someTHING for the character to do to change and > develop not a place to dump EP. Yes it will affect some TOS for some characters. It is not about dumping ep. It about the idea that no matter how hard I train ther is no further improvement possible not even a small improvement. That is frustrating and need not exist. > Raising Stats will not affect the game in any positive way, it will only > give those who play to extemes go further into the extremes and heighten the > already annoying problem of escalation in DQ. If you have the ep you will get tougher and you will escalate. BUT with the limits we have the only way to get tougher is to become more generalised and look like everyone else (particularly for fighters). IF you open up the top end AND make the ep costs exhorbitant then you will make more specialised characters that have used ep non-optimally (ie they are weaker than they would otherwise be). The system is robust(ish) with high stats. If you don't think making older characters happy without harming the game is a positive improvement to the game then there is something wrong here. cheers Bart Saying Windows 95 is equal to Macintosh is like finding a potato that looks like Jesus and believing you've witnessed the second coming. -- Guy Kawasaki Bart Janssen Hort+Research Private Bag 92169 Auckland New Zealand ph 64 9 8154200 x 7279 fax 64 9 8154201 -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 27 17:41:38 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id RAA15565; Tue, 27 Oct 1998 17:41:38 +1300 Received: from date.palm.cri.nz (date.palm.cri.nz [161.66.1.20]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id RAA15555 ; Tue, 27 Oct 1998 17:41:36 +1300 Received: from mail1.marc.cri.nz (mail1.marc.cri.nz [161.29.1.1]) by date.palm.cri.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA05506 ; Tue, 27 Oct 1998 17:34:06 +1300 (NZDT) Received: from hra1.marc.cri.nz (unverified [161.29.1.5]) by mail1.marc.cri.nz (Dr Solomon's SMTPRS 2.0.15) with ESMTP id ; Tue, 27 Oct 1998 17:30:32 +1300 Message-Id: Received: from HRA1/SpoolDir by hra1.marc.cri.nz (Mercury 1.31); 27 Oct 98 17:34:12 GMT+12 Received: from SpoolDir by HRA1 (Mercury 1.31); 27 Oct 98 17:33:58 GMT+12 Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 17:33:49 GMT+1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Increasing stats X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01b) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT From: "Bart Janssen" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. D > >If it is considered > >desirable to allow increases past (normal) species max then as Bart > suggested a > >simple premium could be added. > > I'm undecided about going over racial max. If you don't allow it, you'll > get people > ( or should that be madmen with 25's everywhere ). > If you do allow it, you'd have to put a ceiling of 25 MA on spell discounts > or you'll > get people who get EP back when they rank generals.... > :) Nah by then they'll already have all their generals at rank 20 :) cheers Bart Saying Windows 95 is equal to Macintosh is like finding a potato that looks like Jesus and believing you've witnessed the second coming. -- Guy Kawasaki Bart Janssen Hort+Research Private Bag 92169 Auckland New Zealand ph 64 9 8154200 x 7279 fax 64 9 8154201 -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 27 18:11:25 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id SAA15635; Tue, 27 Oct 1998 18:11:25 +1300 Received: from smtp.worley.co.nz (smtp.worley.co.nz [202.36.210.250]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id SAA15625 ; Tue, 27 Oct 1998 18:11:23 +1300 Received: by smtp.worley.co.nz(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.1 (569.2 2-6-1998)) id 4C2566AA.002173A1 ; Tue, 27 Oct 1998 18:05:22 +1200 X-Lotus-FromDomain: WORLEY CONSULTANTS Message-ID: <4C2566AA.001FE544.00@smtp.worley.co.nz> Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 18:03:39 +1200 Subject: Re: Increasing stats Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline From: amtennant@worley.co.nz To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >> I'm undecided about going over racial max. If you don't allow it, you'll >> get people >> ( or should that be madmen with 25's everywhere ). >> If you do allow it, you'd have to put a ceiling of 25 MA on spell discounts >> or you'll >> get people who get EP back when they rank generals.... >> :) >Nah by then they'll already have all their generals at rank 20 :) Let's have a look at the numbers ( why? because I like that sort of thing... so sue me ). Even with the suggested ( excellent ) diabolically expensive EP cost: Human Celestial ( for example - good generals ) mage starts with 20 MA. Now, this person is a roleplayer and wants to stay low level so he decides to not rank anything at all except MA. He ( assuming he's a good roleplayer ) goes on adventures every session for a little over 8 years. Now, a mere 500,000 EP later, his general spells are free!!! Then he goes on holiday and only 4 years, comes back with every single general spell at Rank 20 for no cost!!!! Hmmm, this isn't looking as attractive an option as one might have first thought. :) Now, let's look at Martin's soft, girly blouse option. :) >But perhaps something in the 1,500 to 2,000 range would be OK. >5 points at 1,500 = 22,500. 5 points at 1,700 = 25,500. 5 points at 2,000 = >30,000 Now, the same mage only goes on adventure solidly for 6 and a half years to earn himself 350,000 EP to pay for his MA. Then there's the short, 4 year interlude and he's home free! Hmm, still not too attractive, really. Oh well. L8R, Adam. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 27 18:15:04 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id SAA15666; Tue, 27 Oct 1998 18:15:04 +1300 Received: from mail.iconz.co.nz (mail.iconz.co.nz [202.14.100.36]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id SAA15656 ; Tue, 27 Oct 1998 18:15:03 +1300 Received: from mandos (e0.firewall.ak.iconz.net.nz [202.14.100.208]) by mail.iconz.co.nz (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA296860909464820 ; Tue, 27 Oct 1998 18:07:00 +1300 (NZDT) Message-ID: <020401be0167$7d80b9c0$1564a8c0@mandos.ICONZ> Subject: Re: Stat Costs. Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 18:05:56 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 From: "Mandos Mitchinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >> Changing Stats will not effect a characters TOS. The ability to raise stats >> higher simply makes the numbers stupider at the top end of the game. The >> thing that affects TOS is someTHING for the character to do to change and >> develop not a place to dump EP. > >Yes it will affect some TOS for some characters. It is not about >dumping ep. It about the idea that no matter how hard I train ther is no >further improvement possible not even a small improvement. That is >frustrating and need not exist. So you are saying that adding 5 more points to your strength gives your character a greater depth and more meaning and playability? Your saying that a few points of stats will develop your character into a more exiting and interesting character to play? A few more stat points makes you a D&D character not a roleplaying character. Skills and abilities are what flesh out and develop a character, it tis those that effect when your character can stop developing. Stat limits are there to force you to think about the skills and abilities that fit your character and allow it to develop. Increasing Stats is simply a place to dump EP not a solution to TOS. >> Raising Stats will not affect the game in any positive way, it will only >> give those who play to extemes go further into the extremes and heighten the >> already annoying problem of escalation in DQ. > >If you have the ep you will get tougher and you will escalate. BUT with >the limits we have the only way to get tougher is to become more >generalised and look like everyone else (particularly for fighters). IF you >open up the top end AND make the ep costs exhorbitant then you will >make more specialised characters that have used ep non-optimally (ie >they are weaker than they would otherwise be). The system is >robust(ish) with high stats. You will just get general characters with OTT stats. >If you don't think making older characters happy without harming the >game is a positive improvement to the game then there is something >wrong here. So we are changing a rule that affects the WHOLE game, just to give old characters an excuse to Dump EP into something that will only cause more complications and difficulties further down the line? I suppose a pat on the head and a chocolate fish wouldn't be a better solution. If you have run out of ways for your character to advance and develop then you need to look at the character more carefully, noit break the system to accomodate you. Mandos /s -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 27 18:33:22 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id SAA15703; Tue, 27 Oct 1998 18:33:22 +1300 Received: from mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (mailhost.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.1.4]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id SAA15693 ; Tue, 27 Oct 1998 18:33:21 +1300 Received: from sci4 (lbr-122-42.lbrsc.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.122.42]) by mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (8.9.1/8.9.1/8.9.1-ua) with SMTP id SAA11025 ; Tue, 27 Oct 1998 18:25:20 +1300 (NZDT) Message-Id: <199810270525.SAA11025@mailhost.auckland.ac.nz> Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 18:28:39 +0000 Subject: Re: Increasing Stats & Costs. X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) From: "Michael Parkinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-to: m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Dear all, some combined responses to Mandos, Bart, et al. ----------------- Mandos said: > Why are we worrying about Stat costs? > > Changing Stats will not effect a characters TOS. The ability to raise stats > higher simply makes the numbers stupider at the top end of the game. The > thing that affects TOS is someTHING for the character to do to change and > develop not a place to dump EP. Your comments are only true for _some_ characters; they obviously DON'T hold for the fighter who wants to become a particular sort of mage as a result of long-termcharacter development -- or for any other PC who must, or merely *ought* to, develop certain stats required, or advisable, for an ability (e.g. a new skill) which the character now desires. > Raising Stats will not affect the game in any positive way, What? I don't think you can seriously mean this. *If* "Raising Stats will not affect the game in any positive way," then it affects the game negatively or, at absolute best, is neutral; therefore we should not allow characters to raise ANY stats. > it will only > give those who play to extemes go further into the extremes and heighten the > already annoying problem of escalation in DQ. This, however, is a very valid criticism. If the price of increasing stats is too cheap, there will be little reason for characters NOT maximise every stat relevant to their existance. --------- Bart said: > A corrolary of that hypothesis is that racial maximums should also be > removed in favour of a number beyond which costs increase by a > significant amount. Sorry, I doubt it's a logical corollary. I certainly dislike the idea that a non-human can ignore their initial penalty if they throw enough ep at it. The strongest hobbit or elf *should* always be surpassed by some humans; The most agile dwarf *should* always be surpassed by some humans; etc. Otherwise you are giving non-humans the advantage of superhuman stats and allowing them to avoid the much less signifigant penalties -- unless you wish to suggest that every race (including humans) can excede 25 in any Stat. > Since we've worked reasonably hard to make sure that stats over racial > maximums don't distort the game anymore there is no mechanical reason not > to allow it. Apart from a common hatred of the 26 Ag watershed, I don't think we *have* worked sufficiently hard to be sure that super-racial or super-human stats are acceptible. I do NOT want remove the "+5 points" rule in order to pander to characters with very high stats that they want to make demonlike; I merely want remove our self-imposed "+5 points" rule for characters who have a lowish stat (or two?) that they merely want to make good. I further think, because the character with a low stat (or two) has previously benefited over an all-rounder with much better stats elsewhere, the player can't gripe against additional EP expense after the normal 5 points ... or a graduated scale if you prefer. --------- Concerning EMs for stat points. If you do want an EM, you should make it like other EMs. A character starting with 17 PS, say, who wants to increase to 18 PS should pay 18*EM ep points -- not 1*EM. Obviously this means, that high stats take much more ep to raise a few points than do low stats: which feels better if you *must* have an uneven system. It also has the advantage that, if stat ep costs are the prime consideration, charaters will tend to start with the profile that they intend to maintain: e.g. a brick; a physically weak super-mage; a lithe sneaky-sort; etc ----- Concerning Adam's comments: > I'm undecided about going over racial max. If you don't allow it, > you'll get people (or should that be madmen with 25's everywhere ). If you don't allow it, but do allow easy stat increases, you get actually get mad humans with 25 every where; mad dwarves on 27/25/23/...; really mad halflings on 22/28/26/...; etc. > If you do allow it, you'd have to put a ceiling of 25 MA on spell > discounts or you'll get people who get EP back when they rank > generals.... Hey, stop being anthropomorphic -- 25 MA penalises those of us at 26 MA but who are *within* racial maxim; and why pick on elves that are too weak to fight back? Are you going to tell Mr de Ork that he has to limit his strength to a mere 25? However, i get your point -- and agree, if it was something like "stats over racial maximums *can* distort the game" regards, Michael Michael Parkinson Assistant Librarian Email: m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz Science Library Phone: (9) 3737 599 x 5858 University of Auckland Fax: (9) 3082 304 -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 27 20:20:46 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id UAA15919; Tue, 27 Oct 1998 20:20:46 +1300 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (root@tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id UAA15908 ; Tue, 27 Oct 1998 20:20:45 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p10-max27.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.103.138]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA10748 ; Tue, 27 Oct 1998 20:12:28 +1300 Message-Id: <199810270712.UAA10748@smtp2.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: Increasing stats Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 19:43:14 +1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. ---------- > From: Bart Janssen > Adam wrote > > People seem to not like characters having lots of fatigue. We've just seen > > SoS be cut back as the major infringer in this area. > > SoS was changed to EN to stop a serious Infinate fatigue loop with > multiple healers and earth mages. Nope, wrong. SoS was changed so that it'd be okay for an Earth mage to be able to cast on themselves, and not create a weird bootstrap situation. The infinite loop is still there, and hasn't been dealt with. It is Creating Restorative, which has never been addressed. A Wiccan and a Healer can generate infinite FT, by creating a Restorative, and then healing the damage it causes. Jim. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 27 20:20:37 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id UAA15896; Tue, 27 Oct 1998 20:20:37 +1300 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (root@tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id UAA15886 ; Tue, 27 Oct 1998 20:20:36 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p10-max27.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.103.138]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA10737 ; Tue, 27 Oct 1998 20:12:25 +1300 Message-Id: <199810270712.UAA10737@smtp2.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: Increasing stats Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 19:38:28 +1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Martin Dickson wrote: > I am all for closing FT loopholes. The major outstanding one is Create Restorative > -- and this is only becuase we couldn't quite decide how to deal to it. I am still > keen on the idea of some of the EN loss being Grevious, but would be interested to > see if anyone else has another idea. It may even be that it would be desirable to > lose its casting FT regain property altogether -- although this would make it into > just yet another healing potion, which is a little dull. Suggestions/solutions > appreciated. Restoratives are pretty essential at High level. With a finite number of FT points, players die too quickly when it gets really dangerous. If you altered Restorative (which I would also like to see) to make it weaker, then you need to balance it against the needs of the players. Spec.Griev EN loss means that it'd take days, possibly months to recover from using a Restorative. The players become less resilient, and substantially weaker. Is this what you want? Jim. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 27 20:20:29 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id UAA15868; Tue, 27 Oct 1998 20:20:29 +1300 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (root@tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id UAA15847 ; Tue, 27 Oct 1998 20:20:28 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p10-max27.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.103.138]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA10726 ; Tue, 27 Oct 1998 20:12:24 +1300 Message-Id: <199810270712.UAA10726@smtp2.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: Increasing stats Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 19:32:24 +1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. ---------- > From: Bart Janssen > Oh yeah for those people arguing that because they > haven't personally experienced top out, it can't exist, I have experienced > it and it does exist. To argue that because you haven't personally > experienced something then it can't be real is somewhat shortsighted. I have never experienced it, Bart, but then I'm not surprised you have...Possibly I'm short-sighted (a description I disagree with), but you have no imagination. And that is the cause of most Top Out Syndrome. Rule changes won't change it, you'll still be Topped Out. You'll just have bigger numbers to be Topped Out with. Jim. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Oct 27 20:20:28 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id UAA15856; Tue, 27 Oct 1998 20:20:28 +1300 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (root@tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id UAA15846 ; Tue, 27 Oct 1998 20:20:27 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p10-max27.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.103.138]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA10712 ; Tue, 27 Oct 1998 20:12:20 +1300 Message-Id: <199810270712.UAA10712@smtp2.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: Increasing stats Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 19:28:08 +1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. ---------- > From: amtennant@worley.co.nz > People seem to not like characters having lots of fatigue. We've just seen > SoS be cut back as the major infringer in this area. > This change of lifting the lid off FT would mean that the sights would be > re-targeted on Wicca Restoratives instead for dealing to. > Well, so what's the problem with that? At the moment, Restoratives are essential, beyond a certain part of the game. > The only problem I can see with having no FT limit is that it makes things > even more D&Dish than they already are although, admittedly, they already > are quite similar. Adam. Really. If you're looking at a system to compare to, then AD&D isn't a wise one. DQ is one of the least robust systems around, in fact as far as that's concerned, it's one of the more flawed and unstable ones. If you're comparing DQ to AD&D, then AD&D is going to show up better, I think. > > DQ, through using a hit point system, is a very "you're up or you're down" > kind of system with a vague distinction when you run out of FT. How would it be different from the way it is now, then. I can't see how the situation would change if you ran out of FT, no matter what its original value. > > I don't mind this on the High level games because it's more amusing and > heroic. It's only going to happen at those levels, Adam. Low and Medium level characters would not have much more FT than they have now. It's only High level characters that will have screeds of FT...And I don't see a problem with that. Jim. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from --