From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Nov 2 10:09:02 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id KAA22895; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 10:09:02 +1300 Received: from mail.iconz.co.nz (mail.iconz.co.nz [202.14.100.36]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id KAA22885 ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 10:09:01 +1300 Received: from mandos (e0.firewall.ak.iconz.net.nz [202.14.100.208]) by mail.iconz.co.nz (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA274840909953993 ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 09:59:55 +1300 (NZDT) Message-ID: <005601be05da$6ebde260$1564a8c0@mandos.ICONZ> Subject: Re: Raising Stats Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 09:58:45 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 From: "Mandos Mitchinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >And in case anyone missed it, I'm for lifting the 5 point limit, and >against lifting the racial limits. Just to add my overall opinion: I'm against changing the 5pt limit and extremely against raising the racial maximums. Mandos /s -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Nov 2 11:10:54 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id LAA22996; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 11:10:54 +1300 Received: from date.palm.cri.nz (date.palm.cri.nz [161.66.1.20]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id LAA22986 ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 11:10:51 +1300 Received: from mail1.marc.cri.nz (mail1.marc.cri.nz [161.29.1.1]) by date.palm.cri.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA05239 ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 11:02:16 +1300 (NZDT) Received: from hra1.marc.cri.nz (unverified [161.29.1.5]) by mail1.marc.cri.nz (Dr Solomon's SMTPRS 2.0.15) with ESMTP id ; Mon, 02 Nov 1998 10:58:24 +1300 Message-Id: Received: from HRA1/SpoolDir by hra1.marc.cri.nz (Mercury 1.31); 2 Nov 98 11:02:31 GMT+12 Received: from SpoolDir by HRA1 (Mercury 1.31); 2 Nov 98 11:02:20 GMT+12 Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 11:02:11 GMT+1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Raising Stats X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01b) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT From: "Bart Janssen" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Subject: Re: Raising Stats Date sent: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 09:58:45 +1300 From: "Mandos Mitchinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Send reply to: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > > >And in case anyone missed it, I'm for lifting the 5 point limit, and > >against lifting the racial limits. > > > Just to add my overall opinion: I'm against changing the 5pt limit and > extremely against raising the racial maximums. And against turning up to the gods meeting to discuss/defend your opinion. cheers Bart Saying Windows 95 is equal to Macintosh is like finding a potato that looks like Jesus and believing you've witnessed the second coming. -- Guy Kawasaki Bart Janssen Hort+Research Private Bag 92169 Auckland New Zealand ph 64 9 8154200 x 7279 fax 64 9 8154201 -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Nov 2 11:26:42 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id LAA23031; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 11:26:42 +1300 Received: from mail.iconz.co.nz (mail.iconz.co.nz [202.14.100.36]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id LAA23021 ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 11:26:42 +1300 Received: from mandos (e0.firewall.ak.iconz.net.nz [202.14.100.208]) by mail.iconz.co.nz (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA284390909958656 ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 11:17:37 +1300 (NZDT) Message-ID: <00a901be05e5$490708c0$1564a8c0@mandos.ICONZ> Subject: Re: Raising Stats Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 11:16:26 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 From: "Mandos Mitchinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. > >And in case anyone missed it, I'm for lifting the 5 point limit, and > >against lifting the racial limits. > > > Just to add my overall opinion: I'm against changing the 5pt limit and > extremely against raising the racial maximums. And against turning up to the gods meeting to discuss/defend your opinion. One would have thought the purpose of an E-mail forum was to avoid the nessecity of having to travel to a specific location to air ones views. Unfortunatly not all of us have enough spare time to attend such social events. Although meeting face to face is the best way to discuss these issues, the fact that it requires specific times and places makes it unacceptable for many of us. Is there any way of having a Web site that could register people for the purpose of voting on such issues? To be honest, with the advent of Net technology why are we not moving more of the Gods meeting stuff onto the net? I think the advent of a Web server to do preliminary voting and other details is something we should look into so that we can get more people involved in these issues. Mandos /s -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Nov 2 11:39:48 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id LAA23063; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 11:39:48 +1300 Received: from proxy.telebusiness.co.nz (usr163@proxy.telebusiness.co.nz [203.97.136.12]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id LAA23054 ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 11:39:43 +1300 Received: by proxy.telebusiness.co.nz with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) id ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 11:30:26 +1300 Message-ID: <01FAE6CB4A43D0118AB00020AF0F925752A655@proxy.telebusiness.co.nz> Subject: RE: Raising Stats Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 11:30:23 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) Content-Type: text/plain From: Terry Spencer To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. I had such a relaxing weekend, then I receive this in my mail box. How can I make this clear: 1: An individuals attendance to the Gods meeting in no way implies their opinion is any more important than others. (although you do get to vote about it) 2: Attendance to the Gods meeting is NOT obligatory. For some, it is simply inconvenient to attend the meeting. 3: The number of posts that individually attack the writer and/or use confrontational language to support arguments is disappointingly high. Terry On the keyboard of life, always keep one finger on the escape key. > -----Original Message----- > From: Bart Janssen [SMTP:bjanssen@hort.cri.nz] > Sent: Tuesday, 3 November 1998 00:02 > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Subject: Re: Raising Stats > > > Subject: Re: Raising Stats > Date sent: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 09:58:45 +1300 > From: "Mandos Mitchinson" > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Send reply to: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > > > > > >And in case anyone missed it, I'm for lifting the 5 point limit, and > > >against lifting the racial limits. > > > > > > Just to add my overall opinion: I'm against changing the 5pt limit and > > extremely against raising the racial maximums. > > And against turning up to the gods meeting to discuss/defend your > opinion. > > cheers > Bart > > Saying Windows 95 is equal to Macintosh is like finding > a potato that looks like Jesus and believing you've > witnessed the second coming. -- Guy Kawasaki > > Bart Janssen > Hort+Research > Private Bag 92169 > Auckland > New Zealand > ph 64 9 8154200 x 7279 > fax 64 9 8154201 > > > > -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Nov 2 11:46:47 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id LAA23105; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 11:46:47 +1300 Received: from fclaklmr01.fcl.co.nz ([203.98.14.148] (may be forged)) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id LAA23096 ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 11:46:46 +1300 Received: from falaklnt000.falum.co.nz ([10.8.1.20]) by fclaklmr01.fcl.co.nz (Post.Office MTA v3.5.1 release 219 ID# 0-0U10L2S100) with SMTP id nz ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 11:37:26 +1300 Received: by falaklnt000.falum.co.nz with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5) id <01BE0655.871ACD20@falaklnt000.falum.co.nz>; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 11:40:02 +1300 Message-ID: Subject: Web Site Administration Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 11:38:50 +1300 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Andrew Withy (FAL AKL)" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >Is there any way of having a Web site that could register people for the >purpose of voting on such issues? To be honest, with the advent of Net >technology why are we not moving more of the Gods meeting stuff onto the >net? I think the advent of a Web server to do preliminary voting and other >details is something we should look into so that we can get more people >involved in these issues. Unfortunately, apart from specific, defined fast-track items, most votes at the Gods meetings are after discussion and are not necessarily on the precise topic raised in the list. The preliminary voting would be irrelevant too often, and may prove to be frustrating. Sunday afternoon is a time where more people are available than almost any other, though some people work or have other commitments. The Gods meetings also serve to winnow those prepared to put in the time commitment from those who don't; or should that be those who can stomach the bureaucracy from those who just want sensible solutions to problems? If we did progress to having a voting server, we would need digital signatures; someone to administer the system & update it daily for the week before each meetings; a procedure for deciding whether the votes are relevant, or the subject has evolved sufficiently to discount the vote; and to make the voting meaningful, possibly a moderated list. I believe the administration involved would be much more effort than turning up to Gods Meetings. Andrew -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Nov 2 11:53:43 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id LAA23139; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 11:53:43 +1300 Received: from peace.com (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id LAA23128 ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 11:53:40 +1300 Received: via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/pcnz2.7) id LAA22646; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 11:44:36 +1300 Orig-Sender: Michael.Woodhams@peace.com Message-ID: <363CE453.B6AAF6E8@peace.co.nz> Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 11:44:36 +1300 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05C-SGI [en] (X11; I; IRIX 6.5 IP32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Raising Stats Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Michael Woodhams To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: Michael.Woodhams@peace.com X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Terry Spencer wrote: > I had such a relaxing weekend, then I receive this in my mail box. > > How can I make this clear: > > 1: An individuals attendance to the Gods meeting in no way implies > their opinion is any more important than others. (although you do get to > vote about it) > 2: Attendance to the Gods meeting is NOT obligatory. For some, it is > simply inconvenient to attend the meeting. > 3: The number of posts that individually attack the writer and/or use > confrontational language to support arguments is disappointingly high. > > Terry > > On the keyboard of life, always keep one finger on the escape key. Thank you for being a voice of sanity. Michael W -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Nov 2 11:59:21 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id LAA23182; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 11:59:21 +1300 Received: from peace.com (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id LAA23171 ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 11:59:20 +1300 Received: via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/pcnz2.7) id LAA23251; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 11:50:23 +1300 Orig-Sender: Michael.Woodhams@peace.com Message-ID: <363CE5AE.98DA58FF@peace.co.nz> Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 11:50:23 +1300 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05C-SGI [en] (X11; I; IRIX 6.5 IP32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Web Site Administration Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Michael Woodhams To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: Michael.Woodhams@peace.com X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. > If we did progress to having a voting server, we would need digital > signatures; someone to administer the system & update it daily for the > week before each meetings; a procedure for deciding whether the votes > are relevant, or the subject has evolved sufficiently to discount the > vote; and to make the voting meaningful, possibly a moderated list. I > believe the administration involved would be much more effort than > turning up to Gods Meetings. > You are overstating some points. No digital signatures needed - just publish who voted how, and if there are problems, the person in question will scream. Updates on the web page could easily be automatic. No moderation should be needed. The points on the issue under vote evolving at the meeting are well taken, however. Michael W. P.S. Was the Gods meeting yesterday or is it next week-end? If any of these stat-change proposals might actually go through, I may turn up to vote against them. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Nov 2 12:19:52 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id MAA23239; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 12:19:52 +1300 Received: from mail.iconz.co.nz (mail.iconz.co.nz [202.14.100.36]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id MAA23230 ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 12:19:52 +1300 Received: from mandos (e0.firewall.ak.iconz.net.nz [202.14.100.208]) by mail.iconz.co.nz (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA182360909961848 ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 12:10:51 +1300 (NZDT) Message-ID: <00e401be05ec$b7e65960$1564a8c0@mandos.ICONZ> Subject: Re: Gods on the Net Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 12:09:41 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 From: "Mandos Mitchinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >Yes the e-mail forum is a place where views can be aired and proposals >discussed and modified. Unfortunately it's not the best forum for making >decisions or voting on proposals as these need to be done in a more formal >situation so that proper records are kept. Actually since everything can be recorded very easily if it is posted in a public forum it is easier to record all the messages than it would be with the second hand recording of the spoken word. >>Is there any way of having a Web site that could register people for the >>purpose of voting on such issues? To be honest, with the advent of Net >>technology why are we not moving more of the Gods meeting stuff onto the >>net? I think the advent of a Web server to do preliminary voting and other >>details is something we should look into so that we can get more people >>involved in these issues. > >That's certainly an interesting idea but, at the moment, I've got no idea >on how to implement such a thing. Plus, not all the Gods have Web or >Internet access. I wouldn't want to disadvantage them in anyway. I think it would be reasonably easy to implement and self maintaining. Even if it were just a way to see where a majority stood on issues before it went to a Gods meeting. How many people are there that go to Gods meetings that are not able to articipate in E-mail discussions? How many people are disadvantaged by the meetings NOT being in cyberspace? Since the Gods meeting seem to have trouble getting quarums a lot of the time why are wqe not looking at other options? Mandos /s >Maybe once the Web site is back up (must find out what is happening about >that) something can be looked into. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Nov 2 12:20:04 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id MAA23260; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 12:20:04 +1300 Received: from mail.iconz.co.nz (mail.iconz.co.nz [202.14.100.36]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id MAA23251 ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 12:20:03 +1300 Received: from mandos (e0.firewall.ak.iconz.net.nz [202.14.100.208]) by mail.iconz.co.nz (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA183250909961861 ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 12:11:02 +1300 (NZDT) Message-ID: <00e701be05ec$be94dc00$1564a8c0@mandos.ICONZ> Subject: Re: Gods on the Net Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 12:09:54 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 From: "Mandos Mitchinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >Yes the e-mail forum is a place where views can be aired and proposals >discussed and modified. Unfortunately it's not the best forum for making >decisions or voting on proposals as these need to be done in a more formal >situation so that proper records are kept. Actually since everything can be recorded very easily if it is posted in a public forum it is easier to record all the messages than it would be with the second hand recording of the spoken word. >>Is there any way of having a Web site that could register people for the >>purpose of voting on such issues? To be honest, with the advent of Net >>technology why are we not moving more of the Gods meeting stuff onto the >>net? I think the advent of a Web server to do preliminary voting and other >>details is something we should look into so that we can get more people >>involved in these issues. > >That's certainly an interesting idea but, at the moment, I've got no idea >on how to implement such a thing. Plus, not all the Gods have Web or >Internet access. I wouldn't want to disadvantage them in anyway. I think it would be reasonably easy to implement and self maintaining. Even if it were just a way to see where a majority stood on issues before it went to a Gods meeting. How many people are there that go to Gods meetings that are not able to articipate in E-mail discussions? How many people are disadvantaged by the meetings NOT being in cyberspace? Since the Gods meeting seem to have trouble getting quarums a lot of the time why are wqe not looking at other options? Mandos /s -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Nov 2 12:21:04 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id MAA23286; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 12:21:04 +1300 Received: from peace.com (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id MAA23277 ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 12:21:02 +1300 Received: via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/pcnz2.7) id MAA24607; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 12:12:01 +1300 Message-ID: <363CEC0E.E31A1171@peace.com> Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 12:17:34 +1300 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5b2 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Web Site Administration Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Michael Woodhams wrote: > You are overstating some points. No digital signatures needed - just publish > who voted how, and if there are problems, the person in question will scream. > Updates on the web page could easily be automatic. No moderation should be > needed. The points on the issue under vote evolving at the meeting are well > taken, however. Changing from voting in meetings and e-voting will raise another interesting question. Who is elegible to vote? Historically anyone who turned up for a GMs meeting could vote. Some people have recused themselves either for conflict of interest; or because they felt that as players (and not GMs) it was not appropriate that they vote. This has not always been the case however, and there have also been times that GM's meetings have been "stacked" by the simple expedient of getting enough interested parties (GM or no) along to influence the voting. I am not arguing that this method of determining voting eligibility is good or not. I am just pointing out that by changing the voting forum a decision will have to be made as to the new eligibility criterion/criteria. We will also run the risk of disenfranchising a different segment of the DQ population -- those who have or access to this medium. Cheers, Martin -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Nov 2 12:25:12 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id MAA23333; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 12:25:12 +1300 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (root@tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id MAA23323 ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 12:25:06 +1300 Received: from phaeton.ihug.co.nz (p14-max6.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.98.78]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA32015 ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 12:16:07 +1300 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19981102121220.007cfa10@pop.ihug.co.nz> X-Sender: phaeton@pop.ihug.co.nz X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 12:12:20 +1300 Subject: Minutes from the November Gods Meeting Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: Keith Smith To: dq-announce@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq-announce@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. DQ Gods Meeting 1st November 1998 Present: Jacqui, Andrew, William, Mike Parkinson, Rosemary, Stephen, Bart, Martin, Keith, Brent 1) Rules Voting Issues a) Mechanician Spell Containment. This proposal was voted in unopposed (7/0/0) b) Rituals Backfiring, Doubling or Tripling. The proposal "That Rituals work the same way as Spells" was voted in unopposed (7/0/0). This meant that the line "Backfires, doubles and triples may occur, as a spell" can be removed from the description of Ritual of Illusionary Fog. c) Ritual Backfire Tidyups i) Water R1 - Remove "(the Cast Check exceeds the Base Chance by 30 or more)" - Passed (6/2/1) ii) Celestial Q2 - Remove "(the Cast Check exceeds the Base Chance by 30 or more) - Passed (7/1/0) iii) Celestial R1 - Remove "(the Cast Check exceeds the Base Chance by 30 or more) - Passed (6/2/0) iv) Purification cannot backfire - Passed (6/2/1) v) Investment - Change the version number to 1.1 and add "If the Investment Ritual backfires, then it is as though the spell being invested has backfired" - Passed (7/1/1) vi) Remove Curse - Add "This ritual does not backfire" - Passed (8/0/1) vii) Bardic R2 - Alter the last sentence to read "If the ritual backfires then the instrument is destroyed, in addition to the normal backfire effect" - Passed (9/0/0) [Note for sadistic GMs. Some suggestions were voiced, such as bagpipes are more susceptible for destruction, or the instrument mutates into bagpipes.] viii) Binding R3 - Add "This ritual does not backfire" - Passed (9/0/0) ix) E&E Greater Enchantment - Add "This ritual does not backfire" - Failed (0/3/6) x) Fire R1 - Alter "If the result is 30 or higher than the Base Chance" to "If the Ritual backfires" - Passed (6/0/2) xi) Fire R2 (Flamesight) - Add "This ritual does not backfire" - Failed (0/3/5) d) Weapon Breakage/Fumble/Overstrengthing It was suggested that both the submitted proposals be merged. Mike to discuss this with Brent. Also should a Fumble Table be added. The proposals have been tabled and will be reproposed in a merged form. e) Miscellaneous Agenda Items i) Change Earth Mage Healing from "This spell takes about five minutes to cast" to "This spell cannot be pulse cast" - Failed (3/1/4) ii) Remove Agility modifiers for Courtesan. Failed (2/5/2) iii) Remove Curse Triangles being constructed by a Mechanician. It was felt that the area of Base Chances needed to be sorted out as well. Maybe Base Chances could be raised by spending time and fatigue. Make it easier to remove minor curses rather than major or add ritual spell preparation such as with the Namer Dissipation Ritual. It was felt that parties should be able to remove curses in the field without having to rely on NPCs. Also, time taken in removing the curse, is time taken out of game. A straw poll was taken with most people agreeing that the base chance be raised but only some wanting the time reduced. No one wanted an absolute limit on MA, preferring the higher the remover's MA, the better. It should be impossible or, at least, extremely difficult, for low MA characters to succeed. Maybe a modifier can be added for a portable triangle with most agreeing the ingredients should be recoverable. Mike and Brent to work on this. iv) Active Talents requiring a Pass Action to implement. Passed (9/0/0) v) Change Magical Pass Action "Concentrate to "Actively Concentrate". This was tabled as it was felt Concentration needed more definition. f) Raising Stats Proposal. This item produced quite a bit of discussion with several people having firm ideas for and against. The following points were brought up: - it seemed undesirable for humans to be as strong as giants (as an example) - extra stat points should be progressively harder to get the higher they go - beginning characters should be able to fix any initial stat problems without too much difficulty - if only the five point limit was lifted characters could lift all stats to racial maximum and hence be all the same. This was also seen to be undesirable. A straw poll was taken with only some people wanting the racial maximums removed and most wanting the five point limit removed. Martin also wants to look at other areas to avoid topout. More discussion to follow. 2) Other Business Noel wants to submit a document to add culture backgrounds to Character Generation. It was generally felt that such detail belongs in the Players Handbook, which Rosemary is creating, and a character background section is to be added to it. A summary of the gazetteer is also to be added. Another suggestion for the players handbook is a summary of Laws and Punishments in Carzala. Maps and Languages are urgently required for the Gazetteer. Brent and Martin are working on a history of the Guild. Meeting Closed -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Nov 2 12:37:07 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id MAA23374; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 12:37:07 +1300 Received: from fep1-orange.clear.net.nz (fep1-orange.clear.net.nz [203.97.32.1]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id MAA23364 ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 12:37:06 +1300 Received: from qed_akl_nt_1.qed.co.nz ([203.97.23.141]) by fep1-orange.clear.net.nz (1.5/1.11) with ESMTP id MAA24450; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 12:27:38 +1300 (NZDT) Received: by qed_akl_nt_1.qed.co.nz with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) id ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 12:28:42 +1300 Message-ID: <15A7D8BC5E3ED2119E2E0000F82150FC0109E1@qed_akl_nt_1.qed.co.nz> Subject: RE: Minutes from the November Gods Meeting Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 12:28:40 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain From: Stephen Martin To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. An ammendment: The change to Celestial R1 (Light/Dark Sphere) Failed. It continues to have a higher than normal backfire chance. > -----Original Message----- > From: Keith Smith [SMTP:phaeton@pop.ihug.co.nz] > Sent: Monday, November 02, 1998 12:12 PM > > DQ Gods Meeting > 1st November 1998 > > iii) Celestial R1 - Remove "(the Cast Check exceeds the Base Chance by > 30 or more) - Passed (6/2/0) > > -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Nov 2 12:47:51 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id MAA23419; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 12:47:51 +1300 Received: from mail.iconz.co.nz (mail.iconz.co.nz [202.14.100.36]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id MAA23408 ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 12:47:50 +1300 Received: from mandos (e0.firewall.ak.iconz.net.nz [202.14.100.208]) by mail.iconz.co.nz (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA290880909963528 ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 12:38:49 +1300 (NZDT) Message-ID: <015e01be05f0$a047c2e0$1564a8c0@mandos.ICONZ> Subject: Re: Minutes from the November Gods Meeting Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 12:37:42 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 From: "Mandos Mitchinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. > DQ Gods Meeting > 1st November 1998 > >Present: Jacqui, Andrew, William, Mike Parkinson, Rosemary, Stephen, Bart, >Martin, Keith, Brent What excellent timing, When we look at the people who turned up to the Gods meeting we find we have all except one person is available on the net and that one person is getting connected very shortly. I wonder who these masses who miss out if we have Internet based meetings are? Mandos /s -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Nov 2 12:55:05 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id MAA23451; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 12:55:05 +1300 Received: from fclaklmr01.fcl.co.nz ([203.98.14.148] (may be forged)) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id MAA23442 ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 12:55:01 +1300 Received: from falaklnt000.falum.co.nz ([10.8.1.20]) by fclaklmr01.fcl.co.nz (Post.Office MTA v3.5.1 release 219 ID# 0-0U10L2S100) with SMTP id nz ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 12:45:38 +1300 Received: by falaklnt000.falum.co.nz with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5) id <01BE065F.1553DD30@falaklnt000.falum.co.nz>; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 12:48:26 +1300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Gods on the Net Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 12:48:14 +1300 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Andrew Withy (FAL AKL)" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. If people are keen for this Net-based voting/meeting/preliminary voting system, someone needs to put some work in to get it started. If you are keen, go for it and keep us informed on how you are going. On the other hand, you might want to consider assisting in getting a campaign-oriented Web-site running. Either contribution would be good for those with the skills and free time. Lucky beggars. Andrew > -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Nov 2 13:03:52 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id NAA23487; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 13:03:52 +1300 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (root@tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id NAA23478 ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 13:03:51 +1300 Received: from phaeton.ihug.co.nz (p14-max6.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.98.78]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA04062 ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 12:54:49 +1300 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19981102125101.0079a5e0@pop.ihug.co.nz> X-Sender: phaeton@pop.ihug.co.nz X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 12:51:01 +1300 Subject: Amendment to the Minutes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: Keith Smith To: dq-announce@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq-announce@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. There was an error with the last set of minutes. Under ritual tidyups iii should be: iii) Celestial R1 - Remove "(the Cast Check exceeds the Base Chance by 30 or more)" - FAILED (1/1/4) Note that voting is in the order (For/Abstain/Against) I can only offer the excuse 'distracted by baby' :-) Keith (phaeton@ihug.co.nz) -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Nov 2 13:14:15 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id NAA23525; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 13:14:15 +1300 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (root@tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id NAA23515 ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 13:14:15 +1300 Received: from phaeton.ihug.co.nz (p14-max6.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.98.78]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA05391 ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 13:05:15 +1300 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19981102130129.007ba100@pop.ihug.co.nz> X-Sender: phaeton@pop.ihug.co.nz X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 13:01:29 +1300 Subject: Re: Gods on the Net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: Keith Smith To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >Actually since everything can be recorded very easily if it is posted in a >public forum it is easier to record all the messages than it would be with >the second hand recording of the spoken word. True - although it would still need to be summarised and the relevant points extracted. I'd hate to have to wade through something the size of Hansard in order to figure out the outcome of a discussion. >I think it would be reasonably easy to implement and self maintaining. Even >if it were just a way to see where a majority stood on issues before it went >to a Gods meeting. How many people are there that go to Gods meetings that >are not able to articipate in E-mail discussions? How many people are >disadvantaged by the meetings NOT being in cyberspace? Since the Gods >meeting seem to have trouble getting quarums a lot of the time why are wqe >not looking at other options? Again interesting points. Unfortunately I don't know what the answers are at the moment. Certainly it is possible for the e-mail group to be used for people to record their stands - and maybe be used for proxies. At the moment I can only think of two people who don't have Web access but there may be more. Keith (phaeton@ihug.co.nz) -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Nov 2 13:15:30 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id NAA23550; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 13:15:30 +1300 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (root@tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id NAA23539 ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 13:15:29 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p30-max41.akl.ihug.co.nz [209.79.137.158]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA14967 ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 13:06:30 +1300 Message-Id: <199811020006.NAA14967@smtp2.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: Minutes from the November Gods Meeting Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 13:05:41 +1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. ---------- > From: Mandos Mitchinson > What excellent timing, When we look at the people who turned up to the Gods > meeting we find we have all except one person is available on the net and > that one person is getting connected very shortly. > > I wonder who these masses who miss out if we have Internet based meetings > are? I doesn't matter who was present at the God's Meeting...What matters is that the door to participation should not require some special key to allow entry. If you say that the God's Meeting should be held on the 'net, then people who have something to contribute, but do not have access to the 'net will not be able to do so. That is short-sighted. Worse, it is unfair. Those of us who do not attend the God's Meetings choose not to do so, by and large. There may be a few that can't attend even though they desperately want to, but I'd have said this was rare. Desperation usually lends ingenuity wings. In general, if there are as few barriers as possible to attending meetings, then at least one can say that everyone has had a fair chance to speak and be heard at such a meeting. This is not to say that such meetings will necessarily produce anything worthwhile. Mind you, neither is it to say that such meetings won't, either. Neither is it to say that any opinion expressed there will automatically have more weight, credibility or value...It just means that the view will have had an opportunity to be aired and opposed. It is to say, however, that the God's Meeting will have an odour of democracy to it. This list on the other hand offers a different kind of contribution, which is very different to the God's Meeting. Do you want to change this? If so, why? Why fix something that isn't broken? Jim. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Nov 2 13:36:03 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id NAA23603; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 13:36:03 +1300 Received: from arc.govt.nz ([202.36.252.2] (may be forged)) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id NAA23593 ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 13:35:57 +1300 Received: from DomPitt-Message_Server by arc.govt.nz with Novell_GroupWise; Mon, 02 Nov 1998 13:23:54 +1300 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 5.2 Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 13:23:31 +1300 Subject: Re: Minutes from the November Gods Meeting Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline From: "Ian Wood" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. I do not wish to be a nag or anything, but can someone remind me of the = quorum for a Gods meeting? I thought it was nine. but most of the votes listed below only add to seven or eight. eg 1)a) = voted in unopposed (7/0/0) where were the other two? in the loo?? making coffee??? cheers Ian >>> Keith Smith 11/02 12:12 >>> DQ Gods Meeting 1st November 1998 Present: Jacqui, Andrew, William, Mike Parkinson, Rosemary, Stephen, Bart, Martin, Keith, Brent 1) Rules Voting Issues a) Mechanician Spell Containment. This proposal was voted in unopposed = (7/0/0) b) Rituals Backfiring, Doubling or Tripling. The proposal "That Rituals work the same way as Spells" was voted in unopposed (7/0/0). This meant that the line "Backfires, doubles and triples may occur, as a spell" can = be removed from the description of Ritual of Illusionary Fog. c) Ritual Backfire Tidyups i) Water R1 - Remove "(the Cast Check exceeds the Base Chance by 30 or more)" - Passed (6/2/1) ii) Celestial Q2 - Remove "(the Cast Check exceeds the Base Chance by 30 = or more) - Passed (7/1/0) iii) Celestial R1 - Remove "(the Cast Check exceeds the Base Chance by 30 or more) - Passed (6/2/0) iv) Purification cannot backfire - Passed (6/2/1) v) Investment - Change the version number to 1.1 and add "If the Investment= Ritual backfires, then it is as though the spell being invested has backfired" - Passed (7/1/1) vi) Remove Curse - Add "This ritual does not backfire" - Passed (8/0/1) vii) Bardic R2 - Alter the last sentence to read "If the ritual backfires then the instrument is destroyed, in addition to the normal backfire effect" - Passed (9/0/0) [Note for sadistic GMs. Some suggestions were voiced, such as bagpipes are more susceptible for destruction, or the instrument mutates into bagpipes.] viii) Binding R3 - Add "This ritual does not backfire" - Passed (9/0/0) ix) E&E Greater Enchantment - Add "This ritual does not backfire" - Failed (0/3/6) x) Fire R1 - Alter "If the result is 30 or higher than the Base Chance" to "If the Ritual backfires" - Passed (6/0/2) xi) Fire R2 (Flamesight) - Add "This ritual does not backfire" - Failed (0/3/5) d) Weapon Breakage/Fumble/Overstrengthing It was suggested that both the submitted proposals be merged. Mike to discuss this with Brent. Also should a Fumble Table be added. The = proposals have been tabled and will be reproposed in a merged form. e) Miscellaneous Agenda Items i) Change Earth Mage Healing from "This spell takes about five minutes to cast" to "This spell cannot be pulse cast" - Failed (3/1/4) ii) Remove Agility modifiers for Courtesan. Failed (2/5/2) iii) Remove Curse Triangles being constructed by a Mechanician. It was = felt that the area of Base Chances needed to be sorted out as well. Maybe Base Chances could be raised by spending time and fatigue. Make it easier to remove minor curses rather than major or add ritual spell preparation such as with the Namer Dissipation Ritual. It was felt that parties should be able to remove curses in the field without having to rely on NPCs. Also, time taken in removing the curse, is time taken out of game. A straw poll was taken with most people agreeing that the base chance be raised but only some wanting the time reduced. No one wanted an absolute limit on MA, preferring the higher the remover's MA, the better. It should be impossible or, at least, extremely difficult, for low MA characters to succeed. Maybe a modifier can be added for a portable triangle with most agreeing the ingredients should be recoverable. Mike and Brent to work on this. iv) Active Talents requiring a Pass Action to implement. Passed (9/0/0) v) Change Magical Pass Action "Concentrate to "Actively Concentrate". This was tabled as it was felt Concentration needed more definition. f) Raising Stats Proposal. This item produced quite a bit of discussion with several people having firm ideas for and against. The following = points were brought up: - it seemed undesirable for humans to be as strong as giants (as an = example) - extra stat points should be progressively harder to get the higher they = go - beginning characters should be able to fix any initial stat problems without too much difficulty - if only the five point limit was lifted characters could lift all stats to racial maximum and hence be all the same. This was also seen to be undesirable. A straw poll was taken with only some people wanting the racial maximums removed and most wanting the five point limit removed. Martin also wants = to look at other areas to avoid topout. More discussion to follow. 2) Other Business Noel wants to submit a document to add culture backgrounds to Character Generation. It was generally felt that such detail belongs in the Players Handbook, which Rosemary is creating, and a character background section = is to be added to it. A summary of the gazetteer is also to be added. Another suggestion for the players handbook is a summary of Laws and Punishments in Carzala.=20 Maps and Languages are urgently required for the Gazetteer. Brent and Martin are working on a history of the Guild. Meeting Closed -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Nov 2 13:44:28 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id NAA23636; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 13:44:28 +1300 Received: from mail.iconz.co.nz (mail.iconz.co.nz [202.14.100.36]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id NAA23626 ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 13:44:28 +1300 Received: from mandos (e0.firewall.ak.iconz.net.nz [202.14.100.208]) by mail.iconz.co.nz (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA218230909966926 ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 13:35:26 +1300 (NZDT) Message-ID: <01c701be05f8$897f4440$1564a8c0@mandos.ICONZ> Subject: Re: Minutes from the November Gods Meeting Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 13:34:19 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 From: "Mandos Mitchinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >I doesn't matter who was present at the God's Meeting...What matters is >that the door to participation should not require some special key to allow >entry. If you say that the God's Meeting should be held on the 'net, then >people who have something to contribute, but do not have access to the 'net >will not be able to do so. And is not the special key, transport and an availability of time? I am not suggesting we do away with the Gods meetings simply suplimenting them so that those of us who do not have the ability to get to Gods meetings can have a say. Or on the other hand for those who simply cannot be bothered attending the meetings it gives them a chance to at least register their interest. >It is to say, however, that the God's Meeting will have an odour of >democracy to it. >This list on the other hand offers a different kind of contribution, which >is very different to the God's Meeting. >Do you want to change this? Yes, although Change indicates a removal of the old, I wish to see an additional avenue of approach. > If so, why? 2 Reasons. 1. I think that there may be others who are unable to attend and do not get as involved as they may otherwise do because they do not see an occasionally advertised meeting at someones house on a sunday afternoon as an effective way to contribute. 2. I see us discuss many subjects on here. Having an idea of how many people stand on either side of the issue will help us guage the feeling in any direction rather than only seeing the noisy people. We would get to see how people stand on issues without requiring active contribution in the discussion. Currently we have a case of frenzied arguing while most people stay quiet, later we discover how people actually felt about the issue. >Why fix something that isn't broken? I feel it is broken, I may be wrong but I would like to see more anenues opened rather than sticking to one that In my opinion does not work very well. Mandos /s -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Nov 2 15:32:22 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id PAA23962; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 15:32:22 +1300 Received: from date.palm.cri.nz (date.palm.cri.nz [161.66.1.20]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id PAA23952 ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 15:32:21 +1300 Received: from mail1.marc.cri.nz (mail1.marc.cri.nz [161.29.1.1]) by date.palm.cri.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA08076 ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 15:23:46 +1300 (NZDT) Received: from hra1.marc.cri.nz (unverified [161.29.1.5]) by mail1.marc.cri.nz (Dr Solomon's SMTPRS 2.0.15) with ESMTP id ; Mon, 02 Nov 1998 15:19:58 +1300 Message-Id: Received: from HRA1/SpoolDir by hra1.marc.cri.nz (Mercury 1.31); 2 Nov 98 15:24:05 GMT+12 Received: from SpoolDir by HRA1 (Mercury 1.31); 2 Nov 98 15:23:59 GMT+12 Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 15:23:53 GMT+1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: Raising Stats X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01b) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT From: "Bart Janssen" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Subject: RE: Raising Stats Date sent: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 11:30:23 +1300 From: Terry Spencer To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Send reply to: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > > I had such a relaxing weekend, then I receive this in my mail box. > > How can I make this clear: > > 1: An individuals attendance to the Gods meeting in no way implies > their opinion is any more important than others. (although you do get to > vote about it) > 2: Attendance to the Gods meeting is NOT obligatory. For some, it is > simply inconvenient to attend the meeting. > 3: The number of posts that individually attack the writer and/or use > confrontational language to support arguments is disappointingly high. If you believe that communication through the written word is superior to verbal communication, not even counting the actual value of face to face contact to discussions then I suggest you get out and meet people more often. There is no doubt in my mind that the newsgroup has value, however it in no way replaces the value of in person discussion. To that extent presence at the GODs meeting makes your opinion of more value since you can properly present it. cheers Bart Saying Windows 95 is equal to Macintosh is like finding a potato that looks like Jesus and believing you've witnessed the second coming. -- Guy Kawasaki Bart Janssen Hort+Research Private Bag 92169 Auckland New Zealand ph 64 9 8154200 x 7279 fax 64 9 8154201 -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Nov 2 15:28:19 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id PAA23941; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 15:28:19 +1300 Received: from date.palm.cri.nz (date.palm.cri.nz [161.66.1.20]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id PAA23931 ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 15:28:18 +1300 Received: from mail1.marc.cri.nz (mail1.marc.cri.nz [161.29.1.1]) by date.palm.cri.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA08064 ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 15:19:42 +1300 (NZDT) Received: from hra1.marc.cri.nz (unverified [161.29.1.5]) by mail1.marc.cri.nz (Dr Solomon's SMTPRS 2.0.15) with ESMTP id ; Mon, 02 Nov 1998 15:16:00 +1300 Message-Id: Received: from HRA1/SpoolDir by hra1.marc.cri.nz (Mercury 1.31); 2 Nov 98 15:20:07 GMT+12 Received: from SpoolDir by HRA1 (Mercury 1.31); 2 Nov 98 15:19:52 GMT+12 Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 15:19:45 GMT+1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Raising Stats X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01b) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT From: "Bart Janssen" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. I wrote > And against turning up to the gods meeting to discuss/defend your > opinion. snip Mandos wrote > Although meeting face to face is the best way to discuss these issues, the > fact that it requires specific times and places makes it unacceptable for > many of us. > > Is there any way of having a Web site that could register people for the > purpose of voting on such issues? To be honest, with the advent of Net > technology why are we not moving more of the Gods meeting stuff onto the > net? I think the advent of a Web server to do preliminary voting and other > details is something we should look into so that we can get more people > involved in these issues. Having agreed that face to face discussions are easily the most efficient and best way to reach compromises and discuss issues I find it hard to understand why anyone would suggest using the net to vote on issues that are important to the game. My own experience is that the written word is an extremely blunt instrument to use for presenting ideas and concepts. Vastly too much of our communication is non-verbal and even ignoring that verbal communication is much faster. It is very difficult to (at present) indulge in more than a 2 way discussion over the internet, whereas GMs meetings often involve discussions from several different directions at once. While it can be argued that that is minus it is also frequently a plus. My vote is strongly against allowing voting on the internet, although I'd be happy to discuss it at a GMs meeting. cheers Bart Saying Windows 95 is equal to Macintosh is like finding a potato that looks like Jesus and believing you've witnessed the second coming. -- Guy Kawasaki Bart Janssen Hort+Research Private Bag 92169 Auckland New Zealand ph 64 9 8154200 x 7279 fax 64 9 8154201 -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Nov 2 15:34:23 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id PAA23995; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 15:34:23 +1300 Received: from date.palm.cri.nz (date.palm.cri.nz [161.66.1.20]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id PAA23985 ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 15:34:22 +1300 Received: from mail1.marc.cri.nz (mail1.marc.cri.nz [161.29.1.1]) by date.palm.cri.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA08107 ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 15:25:43 +1300 (NZDT) Received: from hra1.marc.cri.nz (unverified [161.29.1.5]) by mail1.marc.cri.nz (Dr Solomon's SMTPRS 2.0.15) with ESMTP id ; Mon, 02 Nov 1998 15:21:57 +1300 Message-Id: Received: from HRA1/SpoolDir by hra1.marc.cri.nz (Mercury 1.31); 2 Nov 98 15:26:04 GMT+12 Received: from SpoolDir by HRA1 (Mercury 1.31); 2 Nov 98 15:25:40 GMT+12 Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 15:25:33 GMT+1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Web Site Administration X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01b) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT From: "Bart Janssen" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Andrew wrote common sense cheers Bart Saying Windows 95 is equal to Macintosh is like finding a potato that looks like Jesus and believing you've witnessed the second coming. -- Guy Kawasaki Bart Janssen Hort+Research Private Bag 92169 Auckland New Zealand ph 64 9 8154200 x 7279 fax 64 9 8154201 -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Nov 2 15:39:18 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id PAA24035; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 15:39:18 +1300 Received: from proxy.telebusiness.co.nz (usr168@proxy.telebusiness.co.nz [203.97.136.12]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id PAA24024 ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 15:39:10 +1300 Received: by proxy.telebusiness.co.nz with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) id ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 15:29:38 +1300 Message-ID: <01FAE6CB4A43D0118AB00020AF0F925752A660@proxy.telebusiness.co.nz> Subject: RE: Raising Stats Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 15:29:36 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) Content-Type: text/plain From: Terry Spencer To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. > > > > I had such a relaxing weekend, then I receive this in my mail box. > > > > How can I make this clear: > > > > 1: An individuals attendance to the Gods meeting in no way implies > > their opinion is any more important than others. (although you do get to > > vote about it) > > 2: Attendance to the Gods meeting is NOT obligatory. For some, it is > > simply inconvenient to attend the meeting. > > 3: The number of posts that individually attack the writer and/or use > > confrontational language to support arguments is disappointingly high. > > If you believe that communication through the written word is superior to > verbal communication, not even counting the actual value of face to face > contact to discussions then I suggest you get out and meet people > more often. > [Terry Spencer] Bart, read point 3 again, slowly. > There is no doubt in my mind that the newsgroup has value, however it > in no way replaces the value of in person discussion. To that extent > presence at the GODs meeting makes your opinion of more value since > you can properly present it. > > cheers > Bart > > Saying Windows 95 is equal to Macintosh is like finding > a potato that looks like Jesus and believing you've > witnessed the second coming. -- Guy Kawasaki > > Bart Janssen > Hort+Research > Private Bag 92169 > Auckland > New Zealand > ph 64 9 8154200 x 7279 > fax 64 9 8154201 > > > > -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Nov 2 15:42:43 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id PAA24067; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 15:42:43 +1300 Received: from date.palm.cri.nz (date.palm.cri.nz [161.66.1.20]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id PAA24056 ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 15:42:42 +1300 Received: from mail1.marc.cri.nz (mail1.marc.cri.nz [161.29.1.1]) by date.palm.cri.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA08202 ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 15:34:08 +1300 (NZDT) Received: from hra1.marc.cri.nz (unverified [161.29.1.5]) by mail1.marc.cri.nz (Dr Solomon's SMTPRS 2.0.15) with ESMTP id ; Mon, 02 Nov 1998 15:30:24 +1300 Message-Id: Received: from HRA1/SpoolDir by hra1.marc.cri.nz (Mercury 1.31); 2 Nov 98 15:34:31 GMT+12 Received: from SpoolDir by HRA1 (Mercury 1.31); 2 Nov 98 15:34:11 GMT+12 Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 15:34:04 GMT+1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Minutes from the November Gods Meeting X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01b) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT From: "Bart Janssen" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. > >Present: Jacqui, Andrew, William, Mike Parkinson, Rosemary, Stephen, Bart, > >Martin, Keith, Brent > > > What excellent timing, When we look at the people who turned up to the Gods > meeting we find we have all except one person is available on the net and > that one person is getting connected very shortly. > > I wonder who these masses who miss out if we have Internet based meetings > are? That is not the point. the point is that face to face discussion is faster simpler better and usually a more polite (except when Jim and I are present) way of discussing an issue. As oppossed to e-mail or newsgroup discussions, where the quality of the written word and the distance between people encourages misunderstanding and simple rudeness that is not present in face to face discussions. A simple comparison of the pleasantries exchanged over this newsgroup with the language used at the GMs meeting itself should be enough to convince all concerned that presenting ideas in person should be an absolute requirement. I, of course, am equally as unpleasant in person as I am via e-mail. cheers Bart Saying Windows 95 is equal to Macintosh is like finding a potato that looks like Jesus and believing you've witnessed the second coming. -- Guy Kawasaki Bart Janssen Hort+Research Private Bag 92169 Auckland New Zealand ph 64 9 8154200 x 7279 fax 64 9 8154201 -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Nov 2 16:00:39 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id QAA24102; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 16:00:39 +1300 Received: from mail.iconz.co.nz (mail.iconz.co.nz [202.14.100.36]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id QAA24091 ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 16:00:38 +1300 Received: from mandos (e0.firewall.ak.iconz.net.nz [202.14.100.208]) by mail.iconz.co.nz (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA165380909975089 ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 15:51:31 +1300 (NZDT) Message-ID: <01fe01be060b$8d54bba0$1564a8c0@mandos.ICONZ> Subject: Re: Minutes from the November Gods Meeting Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 15:50:18 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 From: "Mandos Mitchinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >That is not the point. the point is that face to face discussion is faster >simpler better and usually a more polite (except when Jim and I are >present) way of discussing an issue. As oppossed to e-mail or >newsgroup discussions, where the quality of the written word and the >distance between people encourages misunderstanding and simple >rudeness that is not present in face to face discussions. That is exactly the point, although voice communication is superior, I think it is preferable to get as many people as possible involved, and I feel that if we can get more people communication by using both Gods meetings and the Net then it would be a good idea to try it. A simple comparison of the pleasantries exchanged over this newsgroup with the language used at the GMs meeting itself should be enough to convince all concerned that presenting ideas in person should be an absolute requirement. I would suggest the exact opposite, the level of agreement to be noted in the mins does not reflect the amount of discussion that the ideas get on here. What I really want to know is why is there such a huge wave of anti-net reactionary behaviour? I mean Jim and Bart actually agreeing on something? I find the strength of dislike for the concept of Net discussion and voting a little strange considering that in this day and age we are supposed to be embracing technology. And please note for the last time I AM NOT SUGGESTING WE REPLACE THE GODS MEETINGS!!!!! Simply that we add new concepts and technologies that will allow a greater number of people to participate. Mandos /s -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Nov 2 16:02:38 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id QAA24129; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 16:02:38 +1300 Received: from date.palm.cri.nz (date.palm.cri.nz [161.66.1.20]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id QAA24119 ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 16:02:37 +1300 Received: from mail1.marc.cri.nz (mail1.marc.cri.nz [161.29.1.1]) by date.palm.cri.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA08532 ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 15:53:58 +1300 (NZDT) Received: from hra1.marc.cri.nz (unverified [161.29.1.5]) by mail1.marc.cri.nz (Dr Solomon's SMTPRS 2.0.15) with ESMTP id ; Mon, 02 Nov 1998 15:50:16 +1300 Message-Id: Received: from HRA1/SpoolDir by hra1.marc.cri.nz (Mercury 1.31); 2 Nov 98 15:54:24 GMT+12 Received: from SpoolDir by HRA1 (Mercury 1.31); 2 Nov 98 15:54:23 GMT+12 Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 15:54:22 GMT+1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: Raising Stats X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01b) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT From: "Bart Janssen" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. > > > I had such a relaxing weekend, then I receive this in my mail box. > > > > > > How can I make this clear: > > > > > > 1: An individuals attendance to the Gods meeting in no way implies > > > their opinion is any more important than others. (although you do get to > > > vote about it) > > > 2: Attendance to the Gods meeting is NOT obligatory. For some, it is > > > simply inconvenient to attend the meeting. > > > 3: The number of posts that individually attack the writer and/or use > > > confrontational language to support arguments is disappointingly high. > > > > If you believe that communication through the written word is superior to > > verbal communication, not even counting the actual value of face to face > > contact to discussions then I suggest you get out and meet people > > more often. > > > [Terry Spencer] > Bart, read point 3 again, slowly. Do you really think that paragraph was written that way by accident?????? Would you really say what you just said to me in person????? The way you and I speak to each other is dramatically different from the way we write to each other. That was the point of that paragraph. To restate: opinions expressed at the GMs meeting in person are more valuable than those expressed over the net. If anything I am coming to believe that this newsgroup actually is counterproductive. The discussions on the newsgroup are considerably more heated than they would be at a GMs meeting. That alone tends to polarise opinion rather than leading to compromise. That IMO is primarily because of the lack of "real communication" going on on the newsgroup. In the main you will not ignore or dismiss my words and ideas in person, yet you will via e-mail, as will I, as will most others on this group. If you truely believe such a hopelessly pathetic form of communication should replace the GMs meetings then I'm afraid I believe you are very inexperienced and naive. In 40 minutes we discussed and presented vastly differing opinions on stats increases and in the main understood the reasoning behind the various positions of those present. That discussion will allow the presentation of a proposal that is at least more likely to meet with a majority approval than two weeks of heated newsgroup traffic could produce. However, we still have no clue as to the real reasoning behind Mandos/Georges opinion (does Mandos = George?????) and I fully expect that no amount of e-mail traffic will allow that persons opinion and mine to be appeased by a compromise proposal. While I can't guarantee that face to face discussion will allow compromise to be reached it actually has the chance whereas e-mail has no chance. cheers Bart Saying Windows 95 is equal to Macintosh is like finding a potato that looks like Jesus and believing you've witnessed the second coming. -- Guy Kawasaki Bart Janssen Hort+Research Private Bag 92169 Auckland New Zealand ph 64 9 8154200 x 7279 fax 64 9 8154201 -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Nov 2 16:04:02 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id QAA24156; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 16:04:02 +1300 Received: from fclaklmr01.fcl.co.nz ([203.98.14.148] (may be forged)) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id QAA24145 ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 16:04:00 +1300 Received: from falaklnt000.falum.co.nz ([10.8.1.20]) by fclaklmr01.fcl.co.nz (Post.Office MTA v3.5.1 release 219 ID# 0-0U10L2S100) with SMTP id nz ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 15:37:52 +1300 Received: by falaklnt000.falum.co.nz with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5) id <01BE0677.259047C0@falaklnt000.falum.co.nz>; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 15:40:41 +1300 Message-ID: Subject: Bestiary Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 15:40:08 +1300 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Andrew Withy (FAL AKL)" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. At the September Gods Meeting I agreed to take over the editing of the Bestiary to get it into a reasonable format. It is now edited & tidy, if not polished. I envision it being part of the GM Guide. I am interested in feed-back as to where people wish it to head: 1) Just like the current Bestiary, + Demons. 2) Just like the current Bestiary, + Demons. Also, inconsistencies (Weasels @D+4, Horses no MD but Oxen with MD) fixed. 3) Similar to current Bestiary with more normal animal stat guidelines. 4) Similar to current Bestiary with more fantastical animals. 5) With a collection of many different individual GM's creatures, either as an add-on or integrated into existing. 6) Scrap the Bestiary. 7) Other Extra Possibilites: 1) Combine layout of Bestiary with Namer development, so all creatures have unique GTN, groups in Bestiary correspond to Groups of Names. 2) Add pictures of creatures. 3) Have the Bestiary accumulate on-line, as GMs feed monsters into it. Opinions? Andrew -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Nov 2 16:08:35 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id QAA24192; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 16:08:35 +1300 Received: from usenet.darkmere.gen.nz (root@usenet.net.nz [203.29.170.93]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id QAA24183 ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 16:08:34 +1300 Received: from smtp.worley.co.nz (smtp.worley.co.nz [202.36.210.250]) by usenet.darkmere.gen.nz (8.8.5/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA27228 ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 15:59:27 +1300 Received: by smtp.worley.co.nz(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.1 (569.2 2-6-1998)) id 4C2566B0.001668E3 ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 16:04:46 +1200 X-Lotus-FromDomain: WORLEY CONSULTANTS Message-ID: <4C2566B0.0015C2A1.00@smtp.worley.co.nz> Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 15:59:45 +1200 Subject: Re: Bestiary Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline From: amtennant@worley.co.nz To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Personally, I almost never use the bestiary except for Horses stat's. Others may, however, use it more. As for the topic of GMs beasties, that's up to individuals, but I have my own book of nasties and i'm certainly not putting that up for public exhibit. :) L8R, Adam "What IS that blue, furry thing with long teeth?" Tennant. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Nov 2 16:17:14 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id QAA24227; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 16:17:14 +1300 Received: from smtp.worley.co.nz (smtp.worley.co.nz [202.36.210.250]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id QAA24216 ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 16:17:11 +1300 Received: by smtp.worley.co.nz(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.1 (569.2 2-6-1998)) id 4C2566B0.001731B1 ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 16:13:20 +1200 X-Lotus-FromDomain: WORLEY CONSULTANTS Message-ID: <4C2566B0.001632D6.00@smtp.worley.co.nz> Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 16:08:16 +1200 Subject: RE: Raising Stats Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline From: amtennant@worley.co.nz To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >In 40 minutes we discussed and presented vastly differing opinions on >stats increases and in the main understood the reasoning behind the >various positions of those present. That discussion will allow the >presentation of a proposal that is at least more likely to meet with a >majority approval than two weeks of heated newsgroup traffic could >produce. However, we still have no clue as to the real reasoning behind >Mandos/Georges opinion (does Mandos = George?????) and I fully >expect that no amount of e-mail traffic will allow that persons opinion >and mine to be appeased by a compromise proposal. While I can't >guarantee that face to face discussion will allow compromise to be >reached it actually has the chance whereas e-mail has no chance. AAAAAAARRRGG! Bart, ( and any other interested persons ) Mandos/George ( yes, they are one and the same ) is NOT suggesting that EMail/The Web should REPLACE the gods meetings, just that it be used as a means to judge what more people than just those at gods meetings think. e.g. [ I believe that we should learn from history ] Someone comes up with the idea to completely rewrite the system and call it, say, Adventurer ( off the top of my head :) So they discuss it with other GMs at the gods meeting and all think it's a cool idea. But then they think about putting on "The Web Site" to see what other players who don't turn up to gods meetings think. And lo! The players all hate it! Lucky the gods didn't spend vast amounts of time and effort doing something which the general player mob didn't want. L8R, Adam. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Nov 2 16:22:18 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id QAA24257; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 16:22:18 +1300 Received: from date.palm.cri.nz (date.palm.cri.nz [161.66.1.20]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id QAA24248 ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 16:22:04 +1300 Received: from mail1.marc.cri.nz (mail1.marc.cri.nz [161.29.1.1]) by date.palm.cri.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA08741 ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 16:13:25 +1300 (NZDT) Received: from hra1.marc.cri.nz (unverified [161.29.1.5]) by mail1.marc.cri.nz (Dr Solomon's SMTPRS 2.0.15) with ESMTP id ; Mon, 02 Nov 1998 16:09:40 +1300 Message-Id: Received: from HRA1/SpoolDir by hra1.marc.cri.nz (Mercury 1.31); 2 Nov 98 16:13:48 GMT+12 Received: from SpoolDir by HRA1 (Mercury 1.31); 2 Nov 98 16:13:43 GMT+12 Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 16:13:33 GMT+1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Minutes from the November Gods Meeting X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01b) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT From: "Bart Janssen" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Mandos wrote > I would suggest the exact opposite, the level of agreement to be noted in > the mins does not reflect the amount of discussion that the ideas get on > here. How would you know you weren't there ?!?!?!?!?!!? > What I really want to know is why is there such a huge wave of anti-net > reactionary behaviour? I mean Jim and Bart actually agreeing on something? I > find the strength of dislike for the concept of Net discussion and voting a > little strange considering that in this day and age we are supposed to be > embracing technology. see the post I wrote in response to Terrys. I personally doubt if I will ever understand your vehement opposition to allowing stats to be increased more than 5 points without face to face discussion. I know you have no clue as to why I am so keen to see the system changed and that won't change without real person discussion. Yet despite that lack of understanding we continue to argue with each other vehemently, angrily and even abusively. Should we ever meet face to face to discuss we will have to get over an huge amount of bad feeling (that "you don't understand me" syndrome) before we can begin to make progress to finding some compromise (if at all possible). The net can be usefull for presenting proposals for people to view and think about and some discussion can be useful. But where ideas and assumptions about the game and roleplaying are involved I am begining to believe discusssion should be reserved for face to face only. > And please note for the last time I AM NOT SUGGESTING WE REPLACE THE GODS > MEETINGS!!!!! Understood. But I believe if you have an opinion so diametrically opposed to anothers then clearly there is something that needs to be discussed in person before your vote can have meaning. The same is true for my opinions. What I am saying is that voting should never occur on the newsgroup. Opinions expressed on the newsgroup are only that, and carry less weight and importance than opinions expressed in person where the reasoning behind the opinion can be understood and perhaps challanged or perhaps agreed with. > Simply that we add new concepts and technologies that will allow a greater > number of people to participate. new does not necessarily mean better. cheers Bart Saying Windows 95 is equal to Macintosh is like finding a potato that looks like Jesus and believing you've witnessed the second coming. -- Guy Kawasaki Bart Janssen Hort+Research Private Bag 92169 Auckland New Zealand ph 64 9 8154200 x 7279 fax 64 9 8154201 -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Nov 2 16:23:24 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id QAA24281; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 16:23:24 +1300 Received: from mail.iconz.co.nz (mail.iconz.co.nz [202.14.100.36]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id QAA24271 ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 16:23:23 +1300 Received: from mandos (e0.firewall.ak.iconz.net.nz [202.14.100.208]) by mail.iconz.co.nz (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA252820909976456 ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 16:14:17 +1300 (NZDT) Message-ID: <024a01be060e$bb4c4840$1564a8c0@mandos.ICONZ> Subject: Re: Raising Stats Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 16:13:06 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 From: "Mandos Mitchinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >Bart, ( and any other interested persons ) > >Mandos/George ( yes, they are one and the same ) is NOT suggesting that >EMail/The Web should REPLACE the gods meetings, just that it be used as >a means to judge what more people than just those at gods meetings think. Just when I thought no-one ever READ email, a voice of sanity comes forth from the wilderness :-) >Someone comes up with the idea to completely rewrite the system and call >it, say, Adventurer ( off the top of my head :) >So they discuss it with other GMs at the gods meeting and all think it's >a cool idea. But then they think about putting on "The Web Site" to see >what other players who don't turn up to gods meetings think. > >And lo! The players all hate it! Lucky the gods didn't spend vast amounts >of time and effort doing something which the general player mob didn't >want. Good example :-) Mandos /s -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Nov 2 16:31:11 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id QAA24326; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 16:31:11 +1300 Received: from date.palm.cri.nz (date.palm.cri.nz [161.66.1.20]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id QAA24316 ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 16:31:09 +1300 Received: from mail1.marc.cri.nz (mail1.marc.cri.nz [161.29.1.1]) by date.palm.cri.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA08851 ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 16:22:29 +1300 (NZDT) Received: from hra1.marc.cri.nz (unverified [161.29.1.5]) by mail1.marc.cri.nz (Dr Solomon's SMTPRS 2.0.15) with ESMTP id ; Mon, 02 Nov 1998 16:18:40 +1300 Message-Id: Received: from HRA1/SpoolDir by hra1.marc.cri.nz (Mercury 1.31); 2 Nov 98 16:22:48 GMT+12 Received: from SpoolDir by HRA1 (Mercury 1.31); 2 Nov 98 16:22:32 GMT+12 Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 16:22:28 GMT+1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: Raising Stats X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01b) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT From: "Bart Janssen" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Adam I did actually understand that part. What I disagreed with was that an opinion expressed on the web has the same value as that expressed in person, it does not, therefore if opinions are to carry weight then people must be prepared to present them in person. In my experience the positions expressed on the web frequently differ from those seen when the vote is taken in person. A good example was Micheal Parkinsons opinion which ehn stated on the web prior to the GMs meeting was and adamant no to raising stats above racial limit yet after discussion in person he voted in favour in a straw poll to assess opinion (albeit he did qualify his vote). Such a change of opinion does not occur on the web that is why web polls and opinions are not useful. If you or george or anyone else want me to take your position seriously then explain it to me in person because on the web the communication is so pathetic that anything but the most simple of concepts gets screwed up (and even the simple concepts often get confused). cheers Bart Saying Windows 95 is equal to Macintosh is like finding a potato that looks like Jesus and believing you've witnessed the second coming. -- Guy Kawasaki Bart Janssen Hort+Research Private Bag 92169 Auckland New Zealand ph 64 9 8154200 x 7279 fax 64 9 8154201 -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Nov 2 16:32:54 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id QAA24355; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 16:32:54 +1300 Received: from peace.com (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id QAA24344 ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 16:32:53 +1300 Received: via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/pcnz2.7) id QAA07986; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 16:23:54 +1300 Message-ID: <363D2718.23B732D6@peace.com> Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 16:29:28 +1300 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5b2 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Raising Stats Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. amtennant@worley.co.nz wrote: > Someone comes up with the idea to completely rewrite the system and call > it, say, Adventurer ( off the top of my head :) > So they discuss it with other GMs at the gods meeting and all think it's > a cool idea. But then they think about putting on "The Web Site" to see > what other players who don't turn up to gods meetings think. > > And lo! The players all hate it! Lucky the gods didn't spend vast amounts > of time and effort doing something which the general player mob didn't > want. I don't think this would've helped -- unfortunately. Parts of the Adventurer design were even presented before large player groups face to face. The major problem stemmed from the fact that the project took so long to (semi) complete that by the time it was presented back to the whole group the group composition had changed substantially from those who agreed to/approved of it in the first place. Cheers, Martin -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Nov 2 16:34:35 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id QAA24379; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 16:34:35 +1300 Received: from fep1-orange.clear.net.nz (fep1-orange.clear.net.nz [203.97.32.1]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id QAA24369 ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 16:34:34 +1300 Received: from qed_akl_nt_1.qed.co.nz ([203.97.23.141]) by fep1-orange.clear.net.nz (1.5/1.11) with ESMTP id QAA10820; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 16:25:03 +1300 (NZDT) Received: by qed_akl_nt_1.qed.co.nz with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) id ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 16:26:06 +1300 Message-ID: <15A7D8BC5E3ED2119E2E0000F82150FC0109E4@qed_akl_nt_1.qed.co.nz> Subject: RE: Bestiary Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 16:26:04 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain From: Stephen Martin To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Let's release the bestiary + demons as they are now (except tidy) as a starting point and common reference. Then fix up the glaring inconsistencies, then enhance the list of normal animals, etc. As a part of the fixes and enhancements, I think that we should decide on a bestiary template (either as now or with enhancements) for beasts. And think about the structure. My preference is to have the main listings in some logical order (By Genus, Family, Environment, Name, whatever...) and then have them cross-referenced and indexed in html or similar. All beasts added to Alusia (or changes to existing ones) should be approved by gods meetings (or 3 other GMs or some such) before they go into the beastiary. If you have beasts from your own plane that you wish to be available to other GM's then use the standard format and release a supplement to the bestiary for your plane. Having a dynamically updated on-line bestiary would be nice but let's wait for that bridge to be built before we cross it. Cheers, Stephen. > -----Original Message----- > From: Andrew Withy (FAL AKL) [SMTP:AndrewW@falum.co.nz] > Sent: Monday, November 02, 1998 3:40 PM > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Subject: Bestiary > > > At the September Gods Meeting I agreed to take over the editing of the > Bestiary to get it into a reasonable format. It is now edited & tidy, > if > not polished. I envision it being part of the GM Guide. I am > interested > in feed-back as to where people wish it to head: > > 1) Just like the current Bestiary, + Demons. > 2) Just like the current Bestiary, + Demons. Also, inconsistencies > (Weasels @D+4, Horses no MD but Oxen with MD) fixed. > 3) Similar to current Bestiary with more normal animal stat > guidelines. > 4) Similar to current Bestiary with more fantastical animals. > 5) With a collection of many different individual GM's creatures, > either > as an add-on or integrated into existing. > 6) Scrap the Bestiary. > 7) Other > > Extra Possibilites: > 1) Combine layout of Bestiary with Namer development, so all creatures > have unique GTN, groups in Bestiary correspond to Groups of Names. > 2) Add pictures of creatures. > 3) Have the Bestiary accumulate on-line, as GMs feed monsters into it. > > Opinions? > > Andrew > > -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Nov 2 16:39:48 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id QAA24418; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 16:39:48 +1300 Received: from proxy.telebusiness.co.nz (usr178@proxy.telebusiness.co.nz [203.97.136.12]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id QAA24407 ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 16:39:46 +1300 Received: by proxy.telebusiness.co.nz with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) id ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 16:30:24 +1300 Message-ID: <01FAE6CB4A43D0118AB00020AF0F925752A665@proxy.telebusiness.co.nz> Subject: RE: Raising Stats Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 16:30:22 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) Content-Type: text/plain From: Terry Spencer To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. ****F* > > > > I had such a relaxing weekend, then I receive this in my mail box. > > > > > > > > How can I make this clear: > > > > > > > > 1: An individuals attendance to the Gods meeting in no way > implies > > > > their opinion is any more important than others. (although you do > get to > > > > vote about it) > > > > 2: Attendance to the Gods meeting is NOT obligatory. For some, > it is > > > > simply inconvenient to attend the meeting. > > > > 3: The number of posts that individually attack the writer > and/or use > > > > confrontational language to support arguments is disappointingly > high. > > > > > > If you believe that communication through the written word is superior > to > > > verbal communication, not even counting the actual value of face to > face > > > contact to discussions then I suggest you get out and meet people > > > more often. > > > > > [Terry Spencer] > > Bart, read point 3 again, slowly. > > Do you really think that paragraph was written that way by > accident?????? > > Would you really say what you just said to me in person????? > YES, I WOULD. Ask me next time I see you I see you. Those who need to abusing or belittling people, via email or verbally, to support an argument are incredibly rude. For whatever reason people chose adopt this approach, it is wrong. If people need to use insults to support their viewpoint, then maybe their viewpoint is well reasoned or thought out. It could be that them simply explaining their opinion clearly. Terry [snip] -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Nov 2 16:43:36 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id QAA24450; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 16:43:36 +1300 Received: from smtp.worley.co.nz (smtp.worley.co.nz [202.36.210.250]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id QAA24441 ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 16:43:34 +1300 Received: by smtp.worley.co.nz(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.1 (569.2 2-6-1998)) id 4C2566B0.00199EBF ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 16:39:50 +1200 X-Lotus-FromDomain: WORLEY CONSULTANTS Message-ID: <4C2566B0.0018C8AE.00@smtp.worley.co.nz> Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 16:34:46 +1200 Subject: RE: Raising Stats Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline From: amtennant@worley.co.nz To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >I did actually understand that part. What I disagreed with was that an >opinion expressed on the web has the same value as that expressed in >person, it does not, therefore if opinions are to carry weight then people >must be prepared to present them in person. [snip] >If you or george or anyone else want me to take your position seriously >then explain it to me in person because on the web the communication >is so pathetic that anything but the most simple of concepts gets >screwed up (and even the simple concepts often get confused). I tend to agree. EMail is no substitute for heated argument... err I mean calm, rational discussion. :) You will usually be able to get a great deal more discussion done face to face than via EMail. But on the other hand, it would still be useful to get basic reactions from (potentially) a large group of players about a proposed rule change before it was engraved in stone. ( or on someones forhead :) L8R, Adam. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Nov 2 16:47:55 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id QAA24484; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 16:47:55 +1300 Received: from smtp.worley.co.nz (smtp.worley.co.nz [202.36.210.250]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id QAA24474 ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 16:47:54 +1300 Received: by smtp.worley.co.nz(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.1 (569.2 2-6-1998)) id 4C2566B0.001A04FE ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 16:44:12 +1200 X-Lotus-FromDomain: WORLEY CONSULTANTS Message-ID: <4C2566B0.00192C4D.00@smtp.worley.co.nz> Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 16:39:06 +1200 Subject: Re: Raising Stats Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline From: amtennant@worley.co.nz To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. [ Adventurer ] >I don't think this would've helped -- unfortunately. >Parts of the Adventurer design were even presented before large player groups >face to face. Yeah, I even vaguely remember some of that. >The major problem stemmed from the fact that the project took so long to >(semi) complete that by the time it was presented back to the whole group the >group composition had changed substantially from those who agreed to/approved >of it in the first place. Indeed, you're right. It all made the "Night of the Long Knives" look quite pleasant really. That's the sort of thing we had in mind doing Character Gen. Don't try to do too much, keep it simple and get it done fast enough that it's not just the Elves who remember how it all started. L8R, Adam. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Nov 2 17:25:23 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id RAA24610; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 17:25:23 +1300 Received: from mail.iconz.co.nz (mail.iconz.co.nz [202.14.100.36]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id RAA24601 ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 17:25:20 +1300 Received: from mandos (e0.firewall.ak.iconz.net.nz [202.14.100.208]) by mail.iconz.co.nz (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA201070909980174 ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 17:16:15 +1300 (NZDT) Message-ID: <027901be0617$6464e1a0$1564a8c0@mandos.ICONZ> Subject: Re: Raising Stats Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 17:15:07 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 From: "Mandos Mitchinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >I did actually understand that part. What I disagreed with was that an >opinion expressed on the web has the same value as that expressed in >person, it does not, therefore if opinions are to carry weight then people >must be prepared to present them in person. > >In my experience the positions expressed on the web frequently differ >from those seen when the vote is taken in person. I personally find the opposite. I find that E-mail gives me time to ponder the actual contenet of my messages so I can think more about what is being discussed. I am more willing to see other sides of an argument if there is no emotional input given to the delivery. In a spoken argument the people who end up convincing people are not those who have the correct answer but those whose strength of personality sway the "crowd". This does not result in the best possible result. The reason that arguments take longer on the internet is due to the fact that people do not get emotionally swayed as easily and therefore do not tend to conceed points. I am far more likly to change an opinion after an E-mail debate than a vocal debate because less thought and concentration has been used. I think the E-mail forum simply needs time for people to get used to the medium and the different styles of communication it requires. I have been BBS'ing in discussion based arena's for over seven years and I know it does take time to learn to read what people are saying and to reply to that effectivly. This does not mean it is any less of a communicational method than Voice. It does seem that those who are against the introducion of the net as a viable medium for debate and voting are those who are the best at swaying judgements through force of personality. This is a fine trait and one to be applauded but I do not think that it is a good basis to discuss the mechanics of a game. I thnk that the E-mail forums we are using at the moment are doing well, we simply need to practice the art of reading what people write and replying effectivly to that, the degeneration into abuse is a sign that people are not giving time to contemplate the messages and are not thinking about the replies before they write them. All of this is simply practise and experiance with the medium and I don't believe that we should back away from a new technology through inexperiance :-) Mandos /s -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Nov 2 17:48:02 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id RAA24770; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 17:48:02 +1300 Received: from fclaklmr01.fcl.co.nz ([203.98.14.148] (may be forged)) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id RAA24760 ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 17:47:58 +1300 Received: from falaklnt000.falum.co.nz ([10.8.1.20]) by fclaklmr01.fcl.co.nz (Post.Office MTA v3.5.1 release 219 ID# 0-0U10L2S100) with SMTP id nz ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 17:38:37 +1300 Received: by falaklnt000.falum.co.nz with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5) id <01BE0688.03A7F390@falaklnt000.falum.co.nz>; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 17:41:25 +1300 Message-ID: Subject: TK Rage Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 17:41:16 +1300 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Andrew Withy (FAL AKL)" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. The Mind College is under review. TK Rage is sometimes considered troublesome, particularly because of the "bow-wave" effect. Here are four approaches to TK Rage, the last three of which fix this problem: Current: Range: 30 feet + 5 / Rank Duration: Concentration: maximum 60 seconds + 10 / Rank Experience Multiple: 750 Base Chance: 1% Resist: May be actively & passive resisted Storage: Potion Target: Self Effect: The Adept creates a storm of force emanating from them which hurls any object or entity away from them at bone-breaking speed until out of the range of the spell. Anything which fails to resist suffers [D - 5] (+ 1 / foot traveled) damage. Single Target per Pulse: Effect: The Adept creates a storm of force emanating from them which hurls any object or entity away from them at bone-breaking speed until out of the range of the spell. One object or entity may be targeted per pulse. Anything which fails to resist suffers [D - 5] (+ 1 / foot traveled) damage. Instant: Duration: Immediate Fixed Location: Target: Area Effect: The Adept creates a storm of force centred on their current location which hurls any object or entity away from them at bone-breaking speed until out of the range of the spell. Anything which fails to resist suffers [D - 5] (+ 1 / foot traveled) damage. This effect does not move with the Adept. TK Rage (EM 750, 20'+5/Rank) has a similar style of effect to Agony (EM 350, 30'+15/Rank) & Windstorm (EM 200, 30'+30/Rank), of similar duration (they are all area effect suppression). The relative costs and benefits of these should be kept in mind. Opinions/preferences? Is this broken? Alternative solution? Andrew -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Nov 2 17:56:22 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id RAA24815; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 17:56:22 +1300 Received: from date.palm.cri.nz (date.palm.cri.nz [161.66.1.20]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id RAA24804 ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 17:56:07 +1300 Received: from mail1.marc.cri.nz (mail1.marc.cri.nz [161.29.1.1]) by date.palm.cri.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA09415 ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 17:47:29 +1300 (NZDT) Received: from hra1.marc.cri.nz (unverified [161.29.1.5]) by mail1.marc.cri.nz (Dr Solomon's SMTPRS 2.0.15) with ESMTP id ; Mon, 02 Nov 1998 17:43:38 +1300 Message-Id: Received: from HRA1/SpoolDir by hra1.marc.cri.nz (Mercury 1.31); 2 Nov 98 17:47:45 GMT+12 Received: from SpoolDir by HRA1 (Mercury 1.31); 2 Nov 98 17:47:16 GMT+12 Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 17:47:09 GMT+1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Raising Stats X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01b) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT From: "Bart Janssen" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. massive snip > I thnk that the E-mail forums we are using at the moment are doing well, we > simply need to practice the art of reading what people write and replying > effectivly to that, the degeneration into abuse is a sign that people are > not giving time to contemplate the messages and are not thinking about the > replies before they write them. All of this is simply practise and > experiance with the medium and I don't believe that we should back away from > a new technology through inexperiance :-) new does not equal better. To try and present a logical arguement suggesting that written communication is superior to verbal person to person communication is frankly mind blowing. I cannot imagine a situation where more data cannot be transmitted faster and more clearly in person. To try and pretend that I'm argueing for in person communication because I sway peoples opinion better in person is stupid, since my personality is much more likely to cause a negative responce. I have found it almost impossible to get you to understand the points I have tried to get across to you via e-mail in every single discussion we've had. You've frequently accused me of failing to read your posts. i frequently expressed my frustration in my inablity to correctly interpret my posts. Notice for example the difference in stance you assume I don't read correctly I assume I can't write correctly. In fact neither is true. What is true is that the written word permits only a limited amount of data to be transmitted and that very slowly. In person conversation is what we all grew up learning and is what we naturally understand the best. in fact there are several studies that suggest that non-verbal information content is of an even higher value than verbal. The newsgroup can allow some communication but if you want people to really understand you then you have to speak with them in person. That fact (and I'm sorry to be dogmatic but it is a fact) means that newsgroups opinions must be valued less than opinions expressed at gods meetings. cheers Bart PS I quite deliberately try to reply as if in conversation and that means I reply quickly Saying Windows 95 is equal to Macintosh is like finding a potato that looks like Jesus and believing you've witnessed the second coming. -- Guy Kawasaki Bart Janssen Hort+Research Private Bag 92169 Auckland New Zealand ph 64 9 8154200 x 7279 fax 64 9 8154201 -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Nov 2 18:00:18 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id SAA24838; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 18:00:18 +1300 Received: from mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (mailhost.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.1.4]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id SAA24828 ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 18:00:17 +1300 Received: from sci4 (lbr-122-42.lbrsc.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.122.42]) by mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (8.9.1/8.9.1/8.9.1-ua) with SMTP id RAA20294 ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 17:51:17 +1300 (NZDT) Message-Id: <199811020451.RAA20294@mailhost.auckland.ac.nz> Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 17:54:46 +0000 Subject: Email contributions X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) From: "Michael Parkinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-to: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Dear all, 3 things I did want to say about the email vs in-person controversy (btw, Neil, you'll note that I *did* have to wait until after work). #1: > A good example was Michael Parkinson's opinion which he stated on > the web prior to the GMs meeting was an adamant "No!" to raising stats > above racial limit yet, after discussion in person, he voted in favour in a > straw poll to assess opinion (albeit he did qualify his vote). Such a > change of opinion does not occur on the web that is why web polls and > opinions are not useful. Absolutely; and there are several reasons to change one's mind. In this case, I had overlooked the fact that, in Bart's *particular* proposal, the EM cost of raising stats more than a few points was signifigant. Comparing it with my characters rather than raise 1 weakish stat over racial maximum at an outrageous amout (the technical term being bandied about was "truly obscene", it would be cheaper to learn Geas to Rank 50. Considering the superracial stats issue, I don't want humans with giant strength -- hell, I don't even want hobbits with human strength; but if some idiot is willing to put 2-3 adventure's worth of e.p. *solely* into just 1 more stat point, so be it. #2 It is much easier to gauge the view(s) of a group in real-time at a group meeting; especially if a base-line or consensus is being sought. Similarly, rather than waste time developing a train-of-thought and then expressing it logically at suitable length, well spelt, it is much faster and clearer to expound one's views to a group of listeners. Conversly, the listeners can interject at the moment when confusion or disbelief descends which enables the speaker and audience to have a fairer idea of what is being proposed. Generally the additional input will also improve the validity of any argument. All the above *is* possible in email, but much slower, with (additionally) crossed responses and diversions as people fail to perceive in written format the nuances that would be obvious with the spoken word. Especially if valid comments are thrown away unread because the first few lines are preceived as yet an other personal attack by A on B. #3 The written form *does* have the advantage if you wish to compile responses (although this is *not* as easy as you might think, especially if the concepts in a mailing are hard to winnow from the verbiage), a triumph of a literate society over the oral alternative. It is also hand if you wish to quote someone's argument -- usually for the puposes of countering it. But this too is fraught with danger. Sometimes one will overlaborate the apparent illogic of a proposal simply to be told later (in a various of registers) that the original proposal *actually* meant something different, &/or that the proposer was just stiring. Elements which would be apparant in a vocal discussion. Dare I ask for responses? Sincerely [yes I do mean it!], Michael Michael Parkinson Assistant Librarian Email: m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz Science Library Phone: (9) 3737 599 x 5858 University of Auckland Fax: (9) 3082 304 -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Nov 2 18:02:18 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id SAA24864; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 18:02:18 +1300 Received: from fclaklmr01.fcl.co.nz ([203.98.14.148] (may be forged)) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id SAA24853 ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 18:02:17 +1300 Received: from falaklnt000.falum.co.nz ([10.8.1.20]) by fclaklmr01.fcl.co.nz (Post.Office MTA v3.5.1 release 219 ID# 0-0U10L2S100) with SMTP id nz ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 17:52:56 +1300 Received: by falaklnt000.falum.co.nz with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5) id <01BE068A.05837F70@falaklnt000.falum.co.nz>; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 17:55:48 +1300 Message-ID: Subject: Mind Speech Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 17:55:36 +1300 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Andrew Withy (FAL AKL)" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. I think that the proposed spell write-up for Mind Speech is flawed, in that it gives control of group dynamics to a player, and that it facilitates the splitting of a party over vast distances. It also unnecessarily opens cans of worms... ------------------------- Current Proposal: Mind Speech (S-11) Range: 30 feet + 30 / Rank Duration: 10 minutes + 10 / Rank Experience Multiple: 400 Base Chance: 20% Resist: May not be resisted Storage: Potion, Investment Target: Entity Effect: Allows the Adept to communicate telepathically with 1 + 1 / Rank entities. The entities targeted must be both within the range of the spell and either in sight or pinpointed via the Spell of Telepathy (at the time of casting). If the entity subsequently leaves the range, the communication continues, as long as the entity remains on the same plane as the Adept. A language in common is required for verbal communication. At Rank 6 and above visual images may be transmitted, and at Rank 10 and above tactile, taste and olfactory sensations. All communication passes through the Adept who cast the spell, and requires the same level of concentration as for oral communication. ------------------------- My Suggestion: Effect: Allows the Adept to communicate telepathically with 1 + 1 / Rank entities within range. The entities may be targeted via the Spell of Telepathy. Entities may not communicate while outside the Adept's range, but the spell continues as long as the entity remains on the same plane as the Adept. A language in common is required for effective communication. All communication by any target is heard by all targets. A target may leave the mind speech at any time (or may choose not to join?). All reference to Visual, Tactile, Taste, Olfactory sensations to be dropped - remote Scrying, Locate study through others eyes, etc are cans of worms, and the whole split sensory thing was dropped a couple of years back. Maybe make the spell concentration, or dropped if the Adept falls unconscious? ------------------------- The wording needs polishing, but is this preferred to the current proposal? Andrew -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Nov 2 18:15:48 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id SAA24913; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 18:15:48 +1300 Received: from mail.iconz.co.nz (mail.iconz.co.nz [202.14.100.36]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id SAA24903 ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 18:15:48 +1300 Received: from mandos (e0.firewall.ak.iconz.net.nz [202.14.100.208]) by mail.iconz.co.nz (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA079930909983206 ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 18:06:47 +1300 (NZDT) Message-ID: <02d001be061e$71578820$1564a8c0@mandos.ICONZ> Subject: Re: TK Rage Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 18:05:41 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 From: "Mandos Mitchinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >Fixed Location: >Target: Area >Effect: The Adept creates a storm of force centred >on their current location which hurls any object or entity >away from them at bone-breaking speed until out >of the range of the spell. Anything which fails to >resist suffers [D - 5] (+ 1 / foot traveled) damage. This >effect does not move with the Adept. What are the effects of someone entering the area after the spell has been cast? Does it create a wall of force effect or something else? I like the idea of it as a fixed location with say a 500 EM. 500 due to the comparrison with say Agony which does not do so much physical damage but has a similar lasting effect. Mandos /s -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Nov 2 18:20:31 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id SAA24945; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 18:20:31 +1300 Received: from fclaklmr01.fcl.co.nz ([203.98.14.148] (may be forged)) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id SAA24935 ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 18:20:27 +1300 Received: from falaklnt000.falum.co.nz ([10.8.1.20]) by fclaklmr01.fcl.co.nz (Post.Office MTA v3.5.1 release 219 ID# 0-0U10L2S100) with SMTP id nz ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 18:10:59 +1300 Received: by falaklnt000.falum.co.nz with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5) id <01BE068C.8C3DEFD0@falaklnt000.falum.co.nz>; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 18:13:53 +1300 Message-ID: Subject: Undetectability Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 18:13:49 +1300 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Andrew Withy (FAL AKL)" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Undetectability can be quite tricky to GM if you have multiple bad guys/PCs with the spell on, and multiple people each trying to engage visible people in combat. The spell description is far too long to easily refer to in combat for clarification, though it is thorough. I have two proposals to fix these problems: 1) Undetectability is changed back to being called Invisibility and works the same way as invisibility (they have the same EM), maybe with some waffle about cloaking the mind. I'm really keen on this, though it does give 3 colleges invisibility :( . 2) Undetectability means that while you are stealthing, no one can see you, or that it adds a bonus to your stealth. As soon as you stop skulking and behave like a real hero/fool, people can shoot you down. I understand that Jim has tried something like this and it works quite well. It beats the current chaos caused by this spell. --------------- For your reference, here is the current Undetectability (last two sentences are proposed changes in rewrite). S11. Undetectability Range: 15 feet + 15 / Rank Duration: 10 minutes + 10 / Rank Experience Multiple: 450 Base Chance: 15% Resist: May not be resisted Storage: Investment, Potion, Ward Target: Entity Effect: The target of this spell becomes undetectable (other than by touch). The target may be detected if an observing entity makes a 1 x perception roll. Only one perception roll is made per entity for the duration of the spell, irrespective of the target of the spell's actions. The target of the spell is effectively invisible (per E&E G-8, but cannot be seen by Witchsight or other magical means) and therefore has no shadow or reflection. The target also emits no odour and leaves no scent. The target makes no audible sound from its direct action, although secondary effects are possible. Thus where the target or its possessions interface with the external environment, no sound is made, however the adept may make sound using non-possessions. Examples are: an undetectable horse will make no sound crossing a cobblestone courtyard; an undetectable man will make no sound knocking on a door, however if he uses the knocker he will (as neither knocker nor door are possessions). The target of this spell may initiate physical attacks or spellcasting without the spell ceasing effect. The spell may not be terminated voluntarily (other than by way of counterspell). It may be possible to detect a target of this spell using mundane means. For example the target of this spell will leave footprints in the sand, would leave a hole in a room full of dust. The target may be detected by extrasensory magical means such as telepathy or locate spells. An undetectable person may communicate by extrasensory magical means such as Mind Speech. --------------- Andrew -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Nov 2 18:32:12 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id SAA24987; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 18:32:12 +1300 Received: from fclaklmr01.fcl.co.nz ([203.98.14.148] (may be forged)) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id SAA24976 ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 18:32:10 +1300 Received: from falaklnt000.falum.co.nz ([10.8.1.20]) by fclaklmr01.fcl.co.nz (Post.Office MTA v3.5.1 release 219 ID# 0-0U10L2S100) with SMTP id nz ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 18:22:49 +1300 Received: by falaklnt000.falum.co.nz with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5) id <01BE068E.327B0BC0@falaklnt000.falum.co.nz>; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 18:25:41 +1300 Message-ID: Subject: Phantasm Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 18:25:33 +1300 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Andrew Withy (FAL AKL)" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. "Phantasm is just like Spectral Warrior except" is the easiest way I have heard this spell described. Why don't we change it to work the same way? The differences are confusing rather than significant. I think they are: Necro vs Mind Initiative 30+2/Rank vs 0 Invisible vs unseeable Range sight vs sight, telepathy or ITN can't enter necro SCS vs can enter mind SCS TMR 13 vs TMR 1+1/Rank already described vs indescribable. BC 1% vs 5% The ITN targetting is fine, and could be put in Necro. The TMR doesn't matter, except that it identifies the Rank to observant experienced characters. The rest is just splitting hairs. Making them the same (either Necro or Mind, but we are changing Mind...) makes GMing easier, and I don't see any benefit/additional flavour to the current subtle differences. ---------------------------- Phantasm (S-3) Range: Special Duration: Concentration: no maximum Experience Multiple: 400 Base Chance: 1% Resist: May not be resisted Storage: Investment Target: Entity Effect: The spell conjures a beast with an Endurance and Fatigue with a combined value of 20 (+ 5 / 3 full Ranks). The creature is a magical entity which must be targeted at a particular victim. It will then track the victim down and attack them until either the victim is killed, the victim kills it or the phantasm is dispelled (with a counterspell). The phantasm always hits for [D - 4] (+ 1 / Rank) damage per pulse. The target can only be an entity who is can be seen by the Adept or uniquely identified by Telepathy, or whose Individual True Name is known and used in the spell. The TMR of a phantasm is 1 + 1 / Rank. The phantasm is unseeable rather than invisible to all except the target, including the Adept. The phantasm will be dispelled if an area effect Mind Special Knowledge counterspell is cast on an area that the phantasm occupies, but it can enter an already existing area counterspell. The phantasm appears as an horrific nightmare from the target's subconscious, hence the Adept cannot choose its appearance. A phantasm always acts last in the pulse. ---------------------------- Spectral Warrior (S-12) Range: Sight Duration: Concentration: No maximum Experience Multiple: 400 Base Chance: 5% Resist: May not be resisted Storage: Investment Target: Entity Effect: The Adept conjures to this plane a spectral warrior, and directs the warrior to hunt down and slay one target, who must be within sight when the spell is cast. The warrior is completely insubstantial and invisible except to its intended victim. It may be seen by others with Witchsight. It appears as a glowing spectre in baroque armour, with piercing red eyes. The warrior will continue with its mission until the Adept's concentration is broken, its intended victim dies, or it is dissipated or slain. The warrior can unerringly locate its intended victim and will always move towards them at its full movement rate, and engage them in melee combat. The warrior has a single, combined, Endurance and Fatigue Characteristic with a value of 20 (+ 5 per 3 full Ranks). The spectral warrior automatically hits every Pulse for [D - 4] (+ 1 / Rank) damage. Its Initiative is 30 (+ 2 / Rank). The warrior has no defence or armour value. It may not be Stunned. The warrior's movement rate is 650 yards per minute, and its TMR is 13. The warrior may move in any direction without restriction, including through the air, walls, water, etc., except through the area of a Necromantic Special Counterspell. The warrior may dissipated by having a Necromantic Special Counterspell cast on the area it occupies. ---------------------------- That's all for this evening Andrew -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Nov 2 18:50:05 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id SAA25023; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 18:50:05 +1300 Received: from mail.iconz.co.nz (mail.iconz.co.nz [202.14.100.36]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id SAA25013 ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 18:50:05 +1300 Received: from mandos (e0.firewall.ak.iconz.net.nz [202.14.100.208]) by mail.iconz.co.nz (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA217910909985263 ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 18:41:03 +1300 (NZDT) Message-ID: <02f701be0623$3bbfcc40$1564a8c0@mandos.ICONZ> Subject: Re: Raising Stats Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 18:39:57 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 From: "Mandos Mitchinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >> I thnk that the E-mail forums we are using at the moment are doing well, we >> simply need to practice the art of reading what people write and replying >> effectivly to that, the degeneration into abuse is a sign that people are >> not giving time to contemplate the messages and are not thinking about the >> replies before they write them. All of this is simply practise and >> experiance with the medium and I don't believe that we should back away from >> a new technology through inexperiance :-) > >To try and present a logical arguement >suggesting that written communication is superior to verbal person to >person communication is frankly mind blowing. I cannot imagine a >situation where more data cannot be transmitted faster and more clearly >in person. What we are looking for in an E-mail post is that quality and thought are more important than the rapid transmission of large volumes of data. [Insert of later comment] >PS I quite deliberately try to reply as if in conversation and that means I >reply quickly. By this you are missing some of what gives E-mail it's defining quality. The fact that you can wait and think about the comments that you write and can bring a clarity of thought that will never be achieved in a conversation. By treating E-mail as a conversation tool, you are forcing it into the narrow scope that conversation allows, it is like using the television as a radio, they both will transmit sound but to ignore the pictures as not what radio does is to lose what television does. >To try and pretend that I'm argueing for in person communication >because I sway peoples opinion better in person is stupid, since my >personality is much more likely to cause a negative responce . Since the message was not directed at any person in particular it has no particular effect on the topic. However you do therefore admit that emotion and personality do effect how people percieve the argument. >I have found it almost impossible to get you to understand the points I >have tried to get across to you via e-mail in every single discussion >we've had. You've frequently accused me of failing to read your posts. i >frequently expressed my frustration in my inablity to correctly interpret >my posts. Notice for example the difference in stance you assume I >don't read correctly I assume I can't write correctly. In fact neither is >true. What is true is that the written word permits only a limited amount >of data to be transmitted and that very slowly. In person conversation is >what we all grew up learning and is what we naturally understand the >best. Which is why I stated that we do need more time and practice at interpretation and writing in order to get accross our meaning. I have been doing this for 7 years and I still have trouble getting my meaning accoss, but to say that we should not develop something just because it is not as instinctivly easy as something we have been doing for 20+ years 12 hours a day is frankly a sad reflection on us as supposedly intellegent beings. >in fact there are several studies that suggest that non-verbal >information content is of an even higher value than verbal. Which is why E-mail does have it's place. Many people miss the non-verbal component of communication as easily as people miss the meaning in E-mail. In neither case is it the fault of the communication method. It is simply a requirement of the indevidual to practice and improve their communicational skills. >The newsgroup can allow some communication but if you want people >to really understand you then you have to speak with them in person. No. If you want people to understand what you are saying E-mail is the medium. If you want people to understand what you intend and how you feel, then conversation is the medium. By thinking about the post and giving it more time and thought you can more clearly express what you want to say through E-mail, unfortunatly feelings, instincts, and reactions are very hard to discribe. E-mail on a discussion group should never be quickly written, partially thought out comments. This is not what E-mail does well. However a well thought out rational argument will come across clearer and with less complications than a conversational speach. A train is not a car but both have their place. Mandos /s >That fact (and I'm sorry to be dogmatic but it is a fact) means that >newsgroups opinions must be valued less than opinions expressed at >gods meetings. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Nov 2 20:26:20 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id UAA25145; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 20:26:20 +1300 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (root@tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id UAA25135 ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 20:26:18 +1300 Received: from [206.18.106.52] (p52-max37.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.106.52]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA32338 ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 20:17:08 +1300 Message-Id: <199811020717.UAA32338@smtp2.ihug.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 20:18:03 +1300 Subject: Email Discussion From: flamis@pop.ihug.co.nz (Jacqui Smith) To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >2. I see us discuss many subjects on here. Having an idea of how many people >stand on either side of the issue will help us guage the feeling in any >direction rather than only seeing the noisy people. We would get to see how >people stand on issues without requiring active contribution in the >discussion. Currently we have a case of frenzied arguing while most people >stay quiet, later we discover how people actually felt about the issue. Curiously, although I am quite capable of expressing myself in writing, I find that I contribute far more readily in the oral discussion at gods' meetings than in this Email group. I also find myself thinking far more creatively in the meetings, as my ideas spark off other people's. Part of this is because I see that very phenomenon of "frenzied argument while most people stay quiet" right here in this group. Many people don't contribute for fear their ideas will be jumped on by certain individuals in the group. That fear is easily justified when one reads the mailings and notes the alarming proportion of argumentum ad hominum. In other words, I don't think we'll see the kind of open discussion you're looking for unless the group is moderated. Jacqui -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Nov 2 20:38:36 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id UAA25179; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 20:38:36 +1300 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (root@tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id UAA25168 ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 20:38:35 +1300 Received: from [206.18.106.52] (p52-max37.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.106.52]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA00821 ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 20:29:30 +1300 Message-Id: <199811020729.UAA00821@smtp2.ihug.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 20:30:24 +1300 Subject: Re: Bestiary From: flamis@pop.ihug.co.nz (Jacqui Smith) To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. I see this as a developmental process: >1) Just like the current Bestiary, + Demons. >2) Just like the current Bestiary, + Demons. Also, inconsistencies >(Weasels @D+4, Horses no MD but Oxen with MD) fixed. At this point it could be released. >3) Similar to current Bestiary with more normal animal stat guidelines. >4) Similar to current Bestiary with more fantastical animals. This could be a second phase of development. I'd suggest a workshop to determine what should be added. >5) With a collection of many different individual GM's creatures, either >as an add-on or integrated into existing. I'd prefer that these be handled via the workshop and then through gods' meetings. Or as separate addenda for other planes. >Extra Possibilites: >1) Combine layout of Bestiary with Namer development, so all creatures >have unique GTN, groups in Bestiary correspond to Groups of Names. Sounds sensible... >2) Add pictures of creatures. Is this feasible? How big (in MB) would the document become? >3) Have the Bestiary accumulate on-line, as GMs feed monsters into it. Maybe... Jacqui -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Nov 2 20:39:06 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id UAA25201; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 20:39:06 +1300 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (root@tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id UAA25191 ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 20:39:05 +1300 Received: from [206.18.106.52] (p52-max37.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.106.52]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA00878 ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 20:29:59 +1300 Message-Id: <199811020729.UAA00878@smtp2.ihug.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 20:30:54 +1300 Subject: Re: TK Rage From: flamis@pop.ihug.co.nz (Jacqui Smith) To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >The Mind College is under review. TK Rage is sometimes considered >troublesome, particularly because of the "bow-wave" effect. The Mind College "review" is actually more of an edit - my brief was to identify what is being played at present and fix the words so that we get more consistency in play. However, it seems that there are some areas which most people consider as needing to be changed. TK rage is one of those areas. >Instant: >Duration: Immediate This is my favoured solution, because of the ease of administration. It was mentioned during the discussion - one person actually wrote "I think it should be an instantaneous area effect spell (centered around the Adept)." in reply to the question about applying the damage. Jacqui -- See message headers to unsubscribe from --