From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Nov 12 09:33:33 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id JAA07145; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 09:33:33 +1300 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (root@tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id JAA07126 ; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 09:33:32 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p28-max10.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.99.92]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA16157 ; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 09:22:53 +1300 Message-Id: <199811112022.JAA16157@smtp1.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: Hide and Sneak Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 09:18:45 +1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. ---------- > From: Jacqui Smith > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Subject: Hide and Sneak > Date: Wednesday, November 11, 1998 9:16 PM > > > >But you've got to remember that there's PC coming off it, and 3xPC if they > >are looking for you. > > > >Suddenly the truly frightening 150% turns into a pretty reasonable 75%. > > Or less... There are bunch of characters out there with a talent that > boosts visual perception when they concentrate. Throw in a medium-ranked > Greater, and I believe Flamis - who is only rated Medium - can get 3 x PC > over 100%. > > Now, what sounds frightening? Negative, Jacqui...Subtractive modifiers to a base chance do not count an Enchantment...In the case of Stealth, the equation is 3 x AG + (5 x Rank in Stealth) + (2 x Rank in Spy) + (2 x Rank in Assassin) + (Rank in Thief) + (Race bonus) + (Armour modifier) + (Enchantment Rank + 1) + (Other weird magic) minus (1 to 3 x PC). Your Enchantment, assuming you are the potential observer, does not in any way help you defeat the person who is using Stealth. In the worst case, then without using any weird items, the chance to sneak becomes 219%, 240% if under the effects of a Rank 20 Wraithcloak. This means that for that character to have 25% chance of failing to sneak, then an alert and expectant observer would have to have a PC, modified or otherwise, of 48, or 55...That is frightening... Let me remind you, Enchantments never modify stats. They just modify success chances. Jim. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Nov 12 09:33:33 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id JAA07136; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 09:33:33 +1300 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (root@tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id JAA07122 ; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 09:33:31 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p28-max10.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.99.92]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA16166 ; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 09:22:54 +1300 Message-Id: <199811112022.JAA16166@smtp1.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: Concentration Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 09:21:14 +1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. ---------- > From: Brent & Sally > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Subject: Concentration > Date: Thursday, November 12, 1998 11:22 AM > > > Concentration > > As requested at the last Gods meeting, hereunder is an attempt to > rationalise Concentration. > > It has been apparent for some time that the concentration is poorly > definied and inconsistantly applied to the various colleges. For example, > Water mages require "Active Concentration" for various spells, Illusionists > have no Concentration spells, and require pass actions to make changes to > running spells. > > Proposal : > > > Sustained : If a spell has sustained component in its duration then the > Adept must be conscious to maintain the spell, and only a small number of > such spells can be sustained at a time. > > Some talents require activation in order to be used. > > Concentration with :> > Disrupted Casting > When an entity attempts to use magic a degree of concentration is required. > This concentration may be disrupted, resulting in the abandoning of the > magic. Magic use that can be disrupted includes Activating a talent, > Preparing a spell, Casting a spell, Performing a ritual, and Triggering an > invested item. Magic use is automatically disrupted if the user suffers > damage from a weapon strike. Unsuccessful attacks, or other distractions > such as loud noises, may also disrupt the magic. The GM assigns a > difficulty factor to a Willpower check for the entity. If the entity fails > this check, then their magic must be abandoned. Examples of difficulty > factors are : > 4 - a missed ranged attack, unexpected loud noise; > 3 - magic use while falling, flying, or poisoned; > 2 - a missed melee attack; > 1 - an attack which hits for no effective damage. Brent's fantasy come true, at last. Jim. Contemptuous. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Nov 12 12:42:55 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id MAA07420; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 12:42:55 +1300 Received: from kcbbs.gen.nz (kcbbs.gen.nz [202.14.102.1]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id MAA07411 ; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 12:42:54 +1300 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by kcbbs.gen.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA03687 ; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 12:29:19 +1300 (NZDT) Message-ID: <364A1DCB.9EB64F9E@games.co.nz> Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 12:29:15 +1300 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Concentration Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------ECB490EDA5E0C3F7FA3F0159" From: Mike Young To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. --------------ECB490EDA5E0C3F7FA3F0159 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Brent & Sally wrote: > Concentration > As requested at the last Gods meeting, hereunder is an attempt to rationalise > Concentration. > It has been apparent for some time that the concentration is poorly definied and > inconsistantly applied to the various colleges. For example, Water mages > require "Active Concentration" for various spells, Illusionists have no > Concentration spells, and require pass actions to make changes to running > spells. Certainly if you are confused, then feel free to come up with a clarification, but it need not be rational or consistant. > Concentration with :> > Disrupted Casting > When an entity attempts to use magic a degree of concentration is required. This > concentration may be disrupted, resulting in the abandoning of the magic. Magic > use that can be disrupted includes Activating a talent, Preparing a spell, > Casting a spell, Performing a ritual, and Triggering an invested item. Magic > use is automatically disrupted if the user suffers damage from a weapon strike. > Unsuccessful attacks, or other distractions such as loud noises, may also > disrupt the magic. The GM assigns a difficulty factor to a Willpower check for > the entity. If the entity fails > this check, then their magic must be abandoned. Examples of difficulty factors > are : > 4 - a missed ranged attack, unexpected loud noise; > 3 - magic use while falling, flying, or poisoned; > 2 - a missed melee attack; > 1 - an attack which hits for no effective damage. These numbers are too severe. They also require a GM to either remember them or look them up. This is something I have no intention of doing. > Concentration > A spell or ritual with “Concentration” as part of its duration requires the > Adept to actively concentrate to maintain the spell. The spell is immediately > dissipated if the Adept loses consciousness, is stunned, moves out of range of > the target, chooses to stop concentrating on the spell, or attempts to cast or > trigger another concentration spell (regardless of whether that attempt is > successful or not). Magical Pass actions are necessary to alter the spell or > give commands to a controlled object or entity. > > Sustained > A spell or ritual that has “Sustained” as part of its duration requires the > Adept to passively concentrate. The spell is immediately dissipated if theAdept > loses consciousness or chooses to stop sustaining the spell. At any particular > time an adept may only sustain 1 spell (+ 1 / 3 points of Willpower over 10). > In order to make a change to the spell, the target must be within the range of > the spell, and a Magical Pass action is required. What's wrong with "You can only have one Concentraion/Sustained spell active at a time." Lets face it most players can only keep track of a limited number of things at a time, usually one. Under your proposal they might need to keep track of up to 7 or 8. Too hard. And as a GM I have got better things to do then keep track of more than one. > Activation Required > A talent marked as “Activation Required” requires a magical pass action in order > to use it. > > Concentration and Sustained definitions above. In the lists below codes have > been added to indicate the spells current status, and additional changes > required are included in brackets. > AC = Active Concentration required to make changes > AR = Actions required to maintain spell > C = Concentration as part of a specified duration > (C) = Concentration in the spell description but not duration > CNM = duration is Concentration No Maximum > PA = Pass Action required to make changes > > The following spells are to have “Concentration” as part of their duration : > > Exhortation (Bard G-4) CNM > Soothe Beast (Bard G-9) CNM > Instant Golem (Binder S-4) (this spell needs a higher EM) Possibly, but thats nothing to do with the subject. And what type on Concentration are you proposing for Instant Golem? > Instilling Flight (Binder S-6) C > Making (Binder S-8) C > Possess Golem (Binder S-10) Currently Possess Golem has a duration of 10min +10/rank. So this is a change. What are you changing it to? > Web of Entanglement (E&E S-5) C > Nightmare (Illusion S-14) (C) > Phantasm (Mind S-3) CNM > Hypnotism (Mind G-5) CNM > Control Animal (Mind G-6) CNM > Control Person (Mind G-7) CNM > Telekinetic Rage (Mind S-10) C > Avian Control (Air S-3) C > Shaping Cloud (Air S-13) C > Conjuring Air Elemental (Air R-2) (Rewrite required) Well where is it? > Web of Light/Dark (Celestial S-6) C > Increased Gravity (Celestial S-8) C > Light/Dark Sphere (Celestial R-2) C > Control Animal (Earth G-3) CNM > Healing (Earth G-6) (Duration change from Immediate to 5 minutes) Duration is Perminant, although it's ok as it is as long as you know that it takes 5 minutes to cast. Nothing to do with the subject. > Control Earth Elemental (Earth S-11) CNM > Binding Earth (Earth R-1) C > Heat Metal (Fire G-5) C > Web of Fire (Fire S-4) C > Iceberg (Ice S-9) C (needs units on duration) > Snowball (Ice S-13) C (needs units on duration) I presume minutes per rank. Feel free to propose something else. I think Iceberg is really dodgy as a Concentration spell, but that may be the Ice Mage in me talking. Then again Wicca Instill Flight spell is Concentration......splat! At least Iceburg is just a splash! > Control Ice Elemental (Ice R-2) C > Winter (Ice R-3) C > Control Aquatics (Water S-1) CNM > Bind Water Elemental (Water R-1) CNM > Spectral Warrior (Necro S-12) CNM > Torment (Rune S-2) AR > Visitation (Rune S-4) C > Hypnotism (Wicca G-6) C > Controlling Animals (Wicca S-6) C > Instilling Flight (Wicca S-14) C > > > Clairaudience (Bard G-1) PA > Ethereal Orchestra (Bard G-3) > Mockery (Bard G-6) AR > Enthralling Audience (Bard S-7) AR > Siren Song (Bard S-13) AR > Animating Objects (Binder G-2) PA > Moulding Elements (Binder G-8) > Mass Charming (E&E G-7) CNM (needs a duration added) > Levitation (E&E S-8) (needs rewriting) > Location (E&E G-6) (Add multiple casts are allowed) So where are your proposals? > Telekinesis (E&E G-2) > Wizard Eye (E&E S-10) > Audible Illusion (Illusion G-1) PA > Personalised Illusion (Illusion G-5) PA > Illusion of Seeming (Illusion G-6) PA > Illusionary Animal (Illusion S-1) PA > Illusory Euphonia (Illusion S-6) PA > Illusion of Mist (Illusion S-12) PA > ESP (Mind G-1) > Telepathy (Mind S-2) > Telekinesis (Mind S-9) > Mind Speech (Mind S-11) > Mage Wind (Air G-3) AC > Mist (Air G-4) AC > Lightning Strike (Air S-11) > Whispering World (Air S-15) > Binding Air (Air Q-1) > Windspeak (Air Q-2) > Summon & Bind Cloud (Air R-4) AC > Binding Earth (Earth Q-1) > Temperature Alteration (Fire G-2) C > Binding Fire (Fire Q-1) C > Snow Shovel (Ice G-7) C > Bind Ice & Snow (Ice Q-2) C > Snow Simulacrum (Ice R-1) C > Wave Control (Water G-14) (Add Active Concentrate to alter) So where is your proposal? > Binding Water (Water Q-1) (C) > Waters of Vision (Water S-13) > Waterspout (Water S-14) AC > Wave Riding (Water S-15) C > Mage Current (Water G-4) C,AC > Animating Bodily Parts (Necro G-1) > Binding Lesser Undead (Necro G-2) > Binding Greater Undead (Necro S-3) > Animate Dead (Necro S-2) > Head of Death (Necro S-6) PA > > heading :> > Enhanced Hearing (Bardic T-2) > Melodic Memory (Bardic T-3) > Project Voice (Bardic T-4) > Activate Golem (Binder T-1) > Detect Enchantment (Binder T-2) > Enhance Vision (Illusion T-2) for detecting Invisible or Illusions > Project Image (Illusion T-3) > Detect Aura (Namer T-1) > Detect Fumes (Air T-2) > Predict Weather (Air T-3) > Speak to Creatures of Light/Dark (Celestial T-1) > Detect Aura (Celestial T-3) > Detect Aura (Earth T-1) > Infravision (Fire T-1) > Pyrogenesis (Fire T-2) > Predict Weather (Water T-1) > Dowsing (Water T-2) > Ask the Dead (Necro T-1) > Death Sense (Necro T-2) for option 2 only. > Summon Wand (Rune T-5) > Farsensing (Witchcraft T-1) Sorry if I appear negative. I actually find the list of Concentration things quite useful. You have obviously spent quite some time on this. The points you raise about individual spells and rituals need to be presented as proposals for change. They may qualify for Fast Track even? Some of them are changes from spells with a current duration to spells that require some form of Concentration. Is this a good thing? If so why? Regards, Michael Young --------------ECB490EDA5E0C3F7FA3F0159 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Brent & Sally wrote:
Concentration
As requested at the last Gods meeting, hereunder is an attempt to rationalise Concentration.
It has been apparent for some time that the concentration is poorly definied and inconsistantly applied to the various colleges.  For example, Water mages require "Active Concentration" for various spells, Illusionists have no Concentration spells, and require pass actions to make changes to running spells.
Certainly if you are confused, then feel free to come up with a clarification, but it need not be rational or consistant.
 
 
<In section 11.6 Restrictions on Magic replace the existing section Concentration with :>
Disrupted Casting
When an entity attempts to use magic a degree of concentration is required. This concentration may be disrupted, resulting in the abandoning of the magic.  Magic use that can be disrupted includes Activating a talent, Preparing a spell, Casting a spell, Performing a ritual, and Triggering an invested item.  Magic use is automatically disrupted if the user suffers damage from a weapon strike.  Unsuccessful attacks, or other distractions such as loud noises, may also disrupt the magic.  The GM assigns a difficulty factor to a Willpower check for the entity.  If the entity fails
this check, then their magic must be abandoned.  Examples of difficulty factors are :
            4 - a missed ranged attack, unexpected loud noise;
            3 - magic use while falling, flying, or poisoned;
            2 - a missed melee attack;
            1 - an attack which hits for no effective damage.
These numbers are too severe. They also require a GM to either remember them or look them up. This is something I have no intention of doing.
 
 
 
Concentration
A spell or ritual with “Concentration” as part of its duration requires the Adept to actively concentrate to maintain the spell.  The spell is immediately dissipated if the Adept loses consciousness, is stunned, moves out of range of the target, chooses to stop concentrating on the spell, or attempts to cast or trigger another concentration spell (regardless of whether that attempt is successful or not).  Magical Pass actions are necessary to alter the spell or give commands to a controlled object or entity.

Sustained
A spell or ritual that has “Sustained” as part of its duration requires the Adept to passively concentrate.  The spell is immediately dissipated if theAdept loses consciousness or chooses to stop sustaining the spell.  At any particular time an adept may only sustain 1 spell (+ 1 / 3 points of Willpower over 10).  In order to make a change to the spell, the target must be within the range of the spell, and a Magical Pass action is required.

What's wrong with "You can only have one Concentraion/Sustained spell active at a time." Lets face it most players can only keep track of a limited number of things at a time, usually one. Under your proposal they might need to keep track of up to 7 or 8. Too hard. And as a GM I have got better things to do then keep track of more than one.
Activation Required
A talent marked as “Activation Required” requires a magical pass action in order to use it.

<Various spells in the different colleges are altered so as to fit into the Concentration and Sustained definitions above.  In the lists below codes have been added to indicate the spells current status, and additional changes required are included in brackets.
        AC = Active Concentration required to make changes
        AR = Actions required to maintain spell
        C = Concentration as part of a specified duration
        (C) = Concentration in the spell description but not duration
        CNM = duration is Concentration No Maximum
        PA = Pass Action required to make changes

The following spells are to have “Concentration” as part of their duration : >
Exhortation (Bard G-4)          CNM
Soothe Beast (Bard G-9)         CNM
Instant Golem (Binder S-4)              (this spell needs a higher EM)

Possibly, but thats nothing to do with the subject. And what type on Concentration are you proposing for Instant Golem?
Instilling Flight (Binder S-6)  C
Making (Binder S-8)             C
Possess Golem (Binder S-10)
Currently Possess Golem has a duration of 10min +10/rank. So this is a change. What are you changing it to? 

Web of Entanglement (E&E S-5)   C
Nightmare (Illusion S-14)       (C)
Phantasm (Mind S-3)             CNM
Hypnotism (Mind G-5)            CNM
Control Animal (Mind G-6)       CNM
Control Person (Mind G-7)       CNM
Telekinetic Rage (Mind S-10)    C
Avian Control (Air S-3)         C
Shaping Cloud (Air S-13)        C
Conjuring Air Elemental (Air R-2)               (Rewrite required)

Well where is it?
Web of Light/Dark (Celestial S-6)       C
Increased Gravity (Celestial S-8)       C
Light/Dark Sphere (Celestial R-2)       C
Control Animal (Earth G-3)      CNM
Healing (Earth G-6)             (Duration change from Immediate to 5 minutes)
Duration is Perminant, although it's ok as it is as long as you know that it takes 5 minutes to cast. Nothing to do with the subject.
 
Control Earth Elemental (Earth S-11)    CNM
Binding Earth (Earth R-1)       C
Heat Metal (Fire G-5)           C
Web of Fire (Fire S-4)          C
Iceberg (Ice S-9)               C       (needs units on duration)
Snowball (Ice S-13)             C       (needs units on duration)
I presume minutes per rank. Feel free to propose something else. I think Iceberg is really dodgy as a Concentration spell, but that may be the Ice Mage in me talking. Then again Wicca Instill Flight spell is Concentration......splat! At least Iceburg is just a splash!
 
Control Ice Elemental (Ice R-2) C
Winter (Ice R-3)                C
Control Aquatics (Water S-1)    CNM
Bind Water Elemental (Water R-1)        CNM
Spectral Warrior (Necro S-12)   CNM
Torment (Rune S-2)              AR
Visitation (Rune S-4)           C
Hypnotism (Wicca G-6)           C
Controlling Animals (Wicca S-6) C
Instilling Flight (Wicca S-14)  C

<The following spells are to have “Sustained” as part of their duration.>
Clairaudience (Bard G-1)        PA
Ethereal Orchestra (Bard G-3)
Mockery (Bard G-6)              AR
Enthralling Audience (Bard S-7) AR
Siren Song (Bard S-13)          AR
Animating Objects (Binder G-2)  PA
Moulding Elements (Binder G-8)
Mass Charming (E&E G-7)         CNM     (needs a duration added)
Levitation (E&E S-8)                    (needs rewriting)
Location (E&E G-6)                      (Add multiple casts are allowed)

So where are your proposals?
 
 
Telekinesis (E&E G-2)
Wizard Eye (E&E S-10)
Audible Illusion (Illusion G-1) PA
Personalised Illusion (Illusion G-5)    PA
Illusion of Seeming (Illusion G-6)      PA
Illusionary Animal (Illusion S-1)       PA
Illusory Euphonia (Illusion S-6)        PA
Illusion of Mist (Illusion S-12)        PA
ESP (Mind G-1)
Telepathy (Mind S-2)
Telekinesis (Mind S-9)
Mind Speech (Mind S-11)
Mage Wind (Air G-3)             AC
Mist (Air G-4)                  AC
Lightning Strike (Air S-11)
Whispering World (Air S-15)
Binding Air (Air Q-1)
Windspeak (Air Q-2)
Summon & Bind Cloud (Air R-4)   AC
Binding Earth (Earth Q-1)
Temperature Alteration (Fire G-2)       C
Binding Fire (Fire Q-1)         C
Snow Shovel (Ice G-7)           C
Bind Ice & Snow (Ice Q-2)       C
Snow Simulacrum (Ice R-1)       C
Wave Control (Water G-14)               (Add Active Concentrate to alter)
So where is your proposal?
Binding Water (Water Q-1)       (C)
Waters of Vision (Water S-13)
Waterspout (Water S-14)         AC
Wave Riding (Water S-15)        C
Mage Current (Water G-4)        C,AC
Animating Bodily Parts (Necro G-1)
Binding Lesser Undead (Necro G-2)
Binding Greater Undead (Necro S-3)
Animate Dead (Necro S-2)
Head of Death (Necro S-6)       PA

<The following Talents are to have “Activation Required” added to their
heading :>
Enhanced Hearing (Bardic T-2)
Melodic Memory (Bardic T-3)
Project Voice (Bardic T-4)
Activate Golem (Binder T-1)
Detect Enchantment (Binder T-2)
Enhance Vision (Illusion T-2) for detecting Invisible or Illusions
Project Image (Illusion T-3)
Detect Aura (Namer T-1)
Detect Fumes (Air T-2)
Predict Weather (Air T-3)
Speak to Creatures of Light/Dark (Celestial T-1)
Detect Aura (Celestial T-3)
Detect Aura (Earth T-1)
Infravision (Fire T-1)
Pyrogenesis (Fire T-2)
Predict Weather (Water T-1)
Dowsing (Water T-2)
Ask the Dead (Necro T-1)
Death Sense (Necro T-2) for option 2 only.
Summon Wand (Rune T-5)
Farsensing (Witchcraft T-1)

Sorry if I appear negative. I actually find the list of Concentration things quite useful. You have obviously spent quite some time on this. The points you raise about individual spells and rituals need to be presented as proposals for change. They may qualify for Fast Track even? Some of them are changes from spells with a current duration to spells that require some form of Concentration. Is this a good thing? If so why?
 
 

Regards,
Michael Young --------------ECB490EDA5E0C3F7FA3F0159-- -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Nov 12 13:54:17 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id NAA07554; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 13:54:17 +1300 Received: from fep2-orange.clear.net.nz (fep2-orange.clear.net.nz [203.97.32.2]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id NAA07543 ; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 13:54:16 +1300 Received: from qed_akl_nt_1.qed.co.nz ([203.97.23.141]) by fep2-orange.clear.net.nz (1.5/1.9) with ESMTP id NAA13202; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 13:42:22 +1300 (NZDT) Received: by qed_akl_nt_1.qed.co.nz with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) id ; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 13:43:36 +1300 Message-ID: <15A7D8BC5E3ED2119E2E0000F82150FC010A27@qed_akl_nt_1.qed.co.nz> Subject: RE: Earth Healing (was Concentration) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 13:43:35 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Stephen Martin To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. The duration should be immediate. The spell is cast you are immediatly healed in the same way as damage = is immediate. If it had a duration then you would be healed when the spell was cast and then after 5 minutes the duration expires and you would no longer = be healed. Permanent is not right either, a permanent spell can normally be counterspelled and dissapated. Also in theory if another Earth healing was cast on you it would queue and not take effect until the first = spell was countered. A healing spell with a duration or permanent effect could be = interesting but it would also be a different spell. [rambling on...] A possible change to Earth Healing to make it a standard cast time = spell without making it too good would be to give it a duration of Special (until the target breaks contact with the earth). - interesting, amusing, but not necessarily desirable. Cheers, Stephen. > -----Original Message----- > From: Mike Young [SMTP:mike@games.co.nz] > Sent: Thursday, November 12, 1998 12:29 PM >=20 > Brent wrote:=20 >=20 > Healing (Earth G-6)=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 (Duration = change from Immediate > to 5 minutes) >=20 > Duration is Perminant, although it's ok as it is as long as you know > that it takes 5 minutes to cast. Nothing to do with the subject.=20 > =A0=20 >=20 -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Nov 12 23:00:51 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id XAA08089; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 23:00:51 +1300 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (root@tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id XAA08080 ; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 23:00:50 +1300 Received: from [206.18.104.188] (p60-max31.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.104.188]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA01386 ; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 22:50:07 +1300 Message-Id: <199811120950.WAA01386@smtp1.ihug.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 22:51:16 +1300 Subject: Reverse engineering concealment magics From: flamis@pop.ihug.co.nz (Jacqui Smith) To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. I have been reading the mail regarding Undetectability and have been led to wonder if we should be looking at this from the opposite direction, and considering how people may be magically concealed and what Colleges should be able to achieve each effect. Here follow some thoughts, and I will apologise in advance for the occasional use of post-Renaissance terminology. 1) Light-warping. In this method invisibility is achieved by bending light around the person to be concealed, so that an observer perceives the scene behind the concealed person. Of course, the concealed person should be blind as a result of no light striking their retinas! But maybe we can let the magic take care of that little problem. This method is handled very well in LD Modesitt's "The Magic of Recluse". Logically it would be a province of Solar and Star mages, possibly other Celestials. 2) Mind-editting. Here the image of the concealed person is literally editted out of the perception of people around them. Otherwise known as the "someone-else's-problem" field. This is essentially what I believe Undetectability is intended to achieve, and it certainly sounds like something Mind Mages would do. However, it is peculiar that this effect should be nullified by a perception check. Does the victim somehow perceive that their perception has been tampered with? I'd personally consider a unmodified once Willpower check to be more appropriate. This effect should logically have a limited range (stealth will be needed to deal with more distant viewers) and should travel with the adept, a little like Telepathy. It could be cast on self + 1/x ranks persons - who must remain very close to the adept, and are also perceived if the Adept is perceived (which simplifies the book-keeping immediately). Should the Adept or another of the concealed persons strike an entity who cannot percieve them then that entity should get another unmodified willpower check. 3) Chameleon. Basically this adds up to looking like the background. Clearly an Earth mage specialty! However, unlike the current blending spell, it's not unreasonable to allow some movement - the consequence being a perception check related to TMR to be spotted - say TMR x PC. Concealment by illusion should logically work in a similar way. 4) Transparency. The light goes straight through the concealed person! This could be best explained as an enchantment, and therefore it may well be the E&E version. Why it should cease when the concealed person attacks another I cannot explain, but... 5) Elemental projection. It's not unreasonable for those who like to skulk in the dark to be able to wrap the darkness around them thus making it harder to perceive them in dark shadowy places. Those who specialise in water magics may be able to make themselves transparent like water. Likewise air mages may become like the air. That's all I can think of for now... Jacqui -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Nov 12 23:52:42 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id XAA08155; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 23:52:42 +1300 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (root@tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id XAA08145 ; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 23:52:41 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p9-max26.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.103.73]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA25977 ; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 23:42:00 +1300 Message-Id: <199811121042.XAA25977@smtp2.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: Reverse engineering concealment magics Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 23:37:10 +1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. ---------- > From: Jacqui Smith > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Subject: Reverse engineering concealment magics > Date: Thursday, November 12, 1998 10:51 PM > > > I have been reading the mail regarding Undetectability and have been led to > wonder if we should be looking at this from the opposite direction, and > considering how people may be magically concealed and what Colleges should > be able to achieve each effect. Here follow some thoughts, and I will > apologise in advance for the occasional use of post-Renaissance > terminology. > > 1) Light-warping. In this method invisibility is achieved by bending light > around the person to be concealed, so that an observer perceives the scene > behind the concealed person. Of course, the concealed person should be > blind as a result of no light striking their retinas! But maybe we can let > the magic take care of that little problem. This method is handled very > well in LD Modesitt's "The Magic of Recluse". Logically it would be a > province of Solar and Star mages, possibly other Celestials. This is a technological rationalisation of magic...Why bother with running a science based magic system? It works by magic, that's all we really need to know. This kind of thing is not in the flavour of a fantasy roleplaying system. > > 2) Mind-editting. Here the image of the concealed person is literally > editted out of the perception of people around them. Otherwise known as the > "someone-else's-problem" field. This is essentially what I believe > Undetectability is intended to achieve, and it certainly sounds like > something Mind Mages would do. However, it is peculiar that this effect > should be nullified by a perception check. Does the victim somehow perceive > that their perception has been tampered with? I'd personally consider a > unmodified once Willpower check to be more appropriate. > This effect should logically have a limited range (stealth will be needed > to deal with more distant viewers) and should travel with the adept, a > little like Telepathy. It could be cast on self + 1/x ranks persons - who > must remain very close to the adept, and are also perceived if the Adept is > perceived (which simplifies the book-keeping immediately). > Should the Adept or another of the concealed persons strike an entity who > cannot percieve them then that entity should get another unmodified > willpower check. > 1) Science fiction once agains rears its ugly head. 2) Given that this is a mental attack, why would this require an unmodified WP check. Surely, this is a simple Magic Resistance, with bonuses from MindCloak and Counterspells... 3) How can you be attacked by someone who has edited you out of your awareness, and not be aware of it? You might be surprised by the attack, but I can't believe the deception would be able to stand up to clear evidence of the fact that you've just been hammered from behind. Surely, the deception would automatically fail, once you'd delivered the attack, at whatever range. > 3) Chameleon. Basically this adds up to looking like the background. > Clearly an Earth mage specialty! However, unlike the current blending > spell, it's not unreasonable to allow some movement - the consequence being > a perception check related to TMR to be spotted - say TMR x PC. Concealment > by illusion should logically work in a similar way. > > 4) Transparency. The light goes straight through the concealed person! This > could be best explained as an enchantment, and therefore it may well be the > E&E version. Why it should cease when the concealed person attacks another > I cannot explain, but... > Tech, tech, tech... > 5) Elemental projection. It's not unreasonable for those who like to skulk > in the dark to be able to wrap the darkness around them thus making it > harder to perceive them in dark shadowy places. Those who specialise in > water magics may be able to make themselves transparent like water. > Likewise air mages may become like the air. Not bad...I like the idea of becoming translucent like water...That's kind of cool. Being transparent like air doesn't feel right. Jim -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Nov 12 23:53:22 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id XAA08178; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 23:53:22 +1300 Received: from kcbbs.gen.nz (kcbbs.gen.nz [202.14.102.1]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id XAA08168 ; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 23:53:21 +1300 Received: from LOCALNAME (as5200-37.kcbbs.gen.nz [202.14.102.67]) by kcbbs.gen.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA21901; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 23:39:36 +1300 (NZDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.16.19981112233701.2b37d7ae@kcbbs.gen.nz> X-Sender: salient@kcbbs.gen.nz X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (16) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 23:37:01 Subject: RE: Earth Healing (was Concentration) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: Brent & Sally To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. At 01:43 PM 12/11/98 +1300, Stephen Martin wrote: > >The duration should be immediate. >The spell is cast you are immediatly healed in the same way as damage is >immediate. >If it had a duration then you would be healed when the spell was cast >and then after 5 minutes the duration expires and you would no longer be >healed. Surely this depends on the way the spell effects are written up. For example : Duration : 5 minutes (Concentration) Effects : By taking no other action than concentrating on this spell, the Adept may cure Endurance and Fatigue damage. After the full 5 minutes, 3 + 1/Rank damage points due to damage or illness are recovered by the target. Cheers, Brent. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from --