From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Nov 13 08:54:35 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id IAA08545; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 08:54:35 +1300 Received: from peace.com (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id IAA08534 ; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 08:54:32 +1300 Received: via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/pcnz2.7) id IAA26671; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 08:43:47 +1300 Message-ID: <364B3BEF.5C3E09C@peace.com> Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 08:50:07 +1300 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5b2 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Reverse engineering concealment magics Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Jim Arona wrote: > > From: Jacqui Smith > > 5) Elemental projection. It's not unreasonable for those who like to > skulk > > in the dark to be able to wrap the darkness around them thus making it > > harder to perceive them in dark shadowy places. Those who specialise in > > water magics may be able to make themselves transparent like water. > > Likewise air mages may become like the air. > > Not bad...I like the idea of becoming translucent like water...That's kind > of cool. Being transparent like air doesn't feel right. > Jim There is a way of "being transparent like air"... it is called Gaseous Form or Wind Walk... its just that you do more than just become transparent. Transparent/translucent like water is a nice idea. Cf. "What good is a glass dagger". (Niven?) I am much in favour of the idea that Elementalists should be able to: a) survive in their element and b) take on aspects of their element Cheers, Martin -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Nov 13 09:01:06 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id JAA08578; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 09:01:06 +1300 Received: from peace.com (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id JAA08567 ; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 09:01:05 +1300 Received: via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/pcnz2.7) id IAA27053; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 08:50:21 +1300 Orig-Sender: Michael.Woodhams@peace.com Message-ID: <364B3BFC.82AF5035@peace.co.nz> Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 08:50:20 +1300 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05C-SGI [en] (X11; I; IRIX 6.5 IP32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Reverse engineering concealment magics Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Michael Woodhams To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: Michael.Woodhams@peace.com X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Jacqui Smith wrote: > > > 1) Light-warping. In this method invisibility is achieved by bending light > around the person to be concealed, so that an observer perceives the scene > [...] > well in LD Modesitt's "The Magic of Recluse". Logically it would be a > province of Solar and Star mages, possibly other Celestials. Or illusionists > > > 3) Chameleon. Basically this adds up to looking like the background. > Clearly an Earth mage specialty! However, unlike the current blending !?!?! This is absolutely illusionist territory, and I see no connection with earth magic whatsoever except that Earth mages currently get Blending. Michael W -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Nov 13 09:07:38 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id JAA08609; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 09:07:38 +1300 Received: from peace.com (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id JAA08599 ; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 09:07:34 +1300 Received: via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/pcnz2.7) id IAA27444; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 08:56:44 +1300 Message-ID: <364B3EF9.80AD0B89@peace.com> Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 09:03:05 +1300 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5b2 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Earth Healing (was Concentration) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Brent & Sally wrote: > At 01:43 PM 12/11/98 +1300, Stephen Martin wrote: > > > >The duration should be immediate. > > Surely this depends on the way the spell effects are written up. Nope. :) The (current) standard is: [not to be taken as a defence of the standard] :) Duration refers to the length of time that the magical effect remains in play; noting that the results of the effect interacting with the world may endure. So... Hellfire is Immediate -- even though the burns caused may last for a long time. The burns cannot be counterspelled or dissipated. Agony has a duration -- when the spell stops (for whatever reason), the pain goes away -- although again, if you damaged yourself trying to stop the pain, the damage would remain. If a "mending" spell had a duration and it was dissipated, the mended item would fall apart. If the duration was "permanent" then it might be harder to remove the spell but the result would be the same. If the duration was "immediate" then the item would be fixed and the magic would be gone and no amount of dissipation would have an effect. Healing spells with a duration could be counterspelled or dissipated resulting in the damage returning. SoS works a bit like this. So... a Curse Removal (to use an extreme example), might have a cast time of 18 hours, but a duration of "immediate". Earth Healing is a five minute example of the same. Cheers, Martin -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Nov 13 09:13:00 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id JAA08635; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 09:13:00 +1300 Received: from peace.com (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id JAA08626 ; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 09:12:59 +1300 Received: via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/pcnz2.7) id JAA27848; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 09:02:14 +1300 Message-ID: <364B4042.E7A4CB19@peace.com> Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 09:08:34 +1300 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5b2 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Reverse engineering concealment magics Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Michael Woodhams wrote: > > 3) Chameleon. Basically this adds up to looking like the background. > > Clearly an Earth mage specialty! However, unlike the current blending > > !?!?! > This is absolutely illusionist territory, and I see no connection with earth > magic whatsoever except that Earth mages currently get Blending. Earth mages get various abilities drawn from nature and the domains of both flora and fauna. Blending/Chameleon effects seem to fall in that area. Cheers, Martin -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Nov 13 09:22:39 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id JAA08690; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 09:22:39 +1300 Received: from fclaklmr01.fcl.co.nz ([203.98.14.148] (may be forged)) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id JAA08681 ; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 09:22:38 +1300 Received: from falaklnt000.falum.co.nz ([10.8.1.20]) by fclaklmr01.fcl.co.nz (Post.Office MTA v3.5.1 release 219 ID# 0-0U10L2S100) with SMTP id nz ; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 09:11:25 +1300 Received: by falaklnt000.falum.co.nz with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5) id <01BE0EE6.135902A0@falaklnt000.falum.co.nz>; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 09:14:54 +1300 Message-ID: Subject: RE: Reverse engineering concealment magics Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 09:14:53 +1300 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Andrew Withy (FAL AKL)" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >Earth mages get various abilities drawn from nature and the domains of both >flora and fauna. Blending/Chameleon effects seem to fall in that area. So is stealth, climbing, flight, see in the dark, telescopic vision, >hibernation, poison, etc. We don't give Earth mages these abilities. Blending/Chameleon should only be in Earth because we believe it adds to the game. Don't put abilities in _because_ they fit, but only put them in _if_ they fit. >Andrew -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Nov 13 09:27:43 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id JAA08711; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 09:27:43 +1300 Received: from mail.pbpower.co.nz (mail.designpower.co.nz [203.97.56.178]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id JAA08702 ; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 09:27:34 +1300 Received: by WNEXC with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) id ; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 09:15:43 +1300 Message-ID: <9B7416242C44D111BE65006097B950271F9900@AKEXC> Subject: RE: Reverse engineering concealment magics Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 09:15:36 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) Content-Type: text/plain From: "Crosby, Daryl" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. > Earth mages get various abilities drawn from nature and the domains of both > flora and fauna. Blending/Chameleon effects seem to fall in that area. If blending is restricted to natural surroundings, ie flora and fauna, then blending can be seen to be the domain of Earth mages. However, if blending works in cities, under water etc as well, then blending is probably more suited to Illusionist. Have Fun Daryl -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Nov 13 12:33:30 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id MAA09074; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 12:33:30 +1300 Received: from mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (mailhost.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.1.4]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id MAA09064 ; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 12:33:29 +1300 Received: from sci4 (lbr-122-42.lbrsc.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.122.42]) by mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (8.9.1/8.9.1/8.9.1-ua) with SMTP id MAA28357 ; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 12:22:27 +1300 (NZDT) Message-Id: <199811122322.MAA28357@mailhost.auckland.ac.nz> Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 12:26:06 +0000 Subject: Re: Reverse engineering concealment magics X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) From: "Michael Parkinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-to: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Dear all (especially Jim) > > This is a technological rationalisation of magic...Why bother with running > a science based magic system? It works by magic, that's all we really need > to know. I think that some rational thought, expressed in term we can comprehend, will probably benefit the game. In particular, the suggestions Jacqui has put forward will aid us as game [re-]designers. > This kind of thing is not in the flavour of a fantasy roleplaying > system. Please do not assume that magic has to be irrational, or assume that concepts underlying the game should be incomprehensible. On the contrary, the game had been conceived as a *game* with all the balances that involves. All modifications should acknowledge that it is a game. > > 2) Mind-editting. Here the image of the concealed person is literally > > editted out of the perception of people around them. Otherwise known as > the > > "someone-else's-problem" field. This is essentially what I believe > > Undetectability is intended to achieve, and it certainly sounds like > > something Mind Mages would do. However, it is peculiar that this effect > > should be nullified by a perception check. Does the victim somehow > perceive > > that their perception has been tampered with? I'd personally consider a > > unmodified once Willpower check to be more appropriate. > > This effect should logically have a limited range (stealth will be needed > > to deal with more distant viewers) and should travel with the adept, a > > little like Telepathy. It could be cast on self + 1/x ranks persons - who > > must remain very close to the adept, and are also perceived if the Adept > is > > perceived (which simplifies the book-keeping immediately). > > Should the Adept or another of the concealed persons strike an entity who > > cannot percieve them then that entity should get another unmodified > > willpower check. > > > 1) Science fiction once agains rears its ugly head. You are confused again. Why is this "science fiction" ? I assume you object to the term "Mind-editting" -- this is, I assume, one of those pieces of "post-Renaissance terminology" that Jacqui unneccesarily apologised for to aid our comprehesion of her concepts. She is hardly suggesting, for example, that the mage casts the "Spell of Mind-editing." Please stop being absurdly picky about minor words which will not appear in the finak write-up of the spell and concern yourself more broadly with the concepts and the order of the numbers. > 2) Given that this is a mental attack, why would this require an unmodified > WP check. Surely, this is a simple Magic Resistance, with bonuses from > MindCloak and Counterspells... Frankly, I see nothing wrong with magic that requires a specific stat-check to nullify its effect -- we already have plenty of valid examples. Given the "mind-numbing" thesis of undetectiblity, WP is acceptible. > 3) How can you be attacked by someone who has edited you out of your > awareness, and not be aware of it? You might be surprised by the attack, > but I can't believe the deception would be able to stand up to clear > evidence of the fact that you've just been hammered from behind. Surely, > the deception would automatically fail, once you'd delivered the attack, at > whatever range. Possibly a valid concept -- come to think of it, why can't someone currently being attacked be allowed an other perception check. GMs will often allow multiple attempts to perceive something in their campaign, especially as time goes on orwhen something becomes more relevant [e.g. something whih has ceased to be almost normal background scenery, and now impinges directly on the Party]. >> 4) Transparency. The light goes straight through the concealed person! >> This could be best explained as an enchantment, and therefore it may >> well be the E&E version. Why it should cease when the concealed person >> attacks another I cannot explain, but... > > Tech, tech, tech... Sorry why is this "tech"? The concept of light passing through a body -- presumably not. The confusion why a specific spell ceases when the target attacks [except, of course, at rank 15+] ? -- that has NOTHING to do with Tech, tech, tech ... Personally I feel that magic, like Greek philosophy, should be exceeding logical -- merely that many of it founding assumptions are divorced from reality as we players know it. Of course, the overiding consideration is that we are actually playing a game. > > Not bad...I like the idea of becoming translucent like water...That's kind > of cool. Being transparent like air doesn't feel right. This specific proposal of yours is good. I too like the feel of it. Of course I particularly like the idea because I've seen it used Fantasy & Science fiction movies [mostly rip-offs of "Predator"] or TV [e.g., Xena] -- Actually a character of mine has literally dabbled with this experience. regards, Michael Michael Parkinson Assistant Librarian Email: m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz Science Library Phone: (9) 3737 599 x 5858 University of Auckland Fax: (9) 3082 304 -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Nov 13 17:35:37 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id RAA09484; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 17:35:37 +1300 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (root@tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id RAA09474 ; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 17:35:35 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p15-max28.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.103.207]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA05815 ; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 17:24:41 +1300 Message-Id: <199811130424.RAA05815@smtp2.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: Reverse engineering concealment magics Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 17:11:36 +1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. ---------- > From: Michael Parkinson > > Dear all (especially Jim) > > > > > This is a technological rationalisation of magic...Why bother with running > > a science based magic system? It works by magic, that's all we really need > > to know. > > I think that some rational thought, expressed in term we can comprehend, > will probably benefit the game. In particular, the suggestions Jacqui > has put forward will aid us as game [re-]designers. > I, however, do not. I think that science fiction type titles, whether used to describe the effect or not, are not helpful, and they distract attention away from the issue at hand. > > This kind of thing is not in the flavour of a fantasy roleplaying > > system. > > Please do not assume that magic has to be irrational, or assume that > concepts underlying the game should be incomprehensible. On the > contrary, the game had been conceived as a *game* with all the balances > that involves. All modifications should acknowledge that it is a game. That is not my assumption. My assumption, such as it is, is that the game doesn't need to have an underlying, logical or even consistent rationale. The only thing such rationalisations have to do is capture the feeling of the genre, and provide a playing environment that can sustain a fair amount of play. Anything else is dross, however nice or nasty that dross is. > > > > 2) Mind-editting. Here the image of the concealed person is literally > > > editted out of the perception of people around them. Otherwise known as > > the > > > "someone-else's-problem" field. This is essentially what I believe > > > Undetectability is intended to achieve, and it certainly sounds like > > > something Mind Mages would do. However, it is peculiar that this effect > > > should be nullified by a perception check. Does the victim somehow > > perceive > > > that their perception has been tampered with? I'd personally consider a > > > unmodified once Willpower check to be more appropriate. > > > This effect should logically have a limited range (stealth will be needed > > > to deal with more distant viewers) and should travel with the adept, a > > > little like Telepathy. It could be cast on self + 1/x ranks persons - who > > > must remain very close to the adept, and are also perceived if the Adept > > is > > > perceived (which simplifies the book-keeping immediately). > > > Should the Adept or another of the concealed persons strike an entity who > > > cannot percieve them then that entity should get another unmodified > > > willpower check. > > > > > 1) Science fiction once agains rears its ugly head. > > You are confused again. Why is this "science fiction" ? I assume you > object to the term "Mind-editting" -- this is, I assume, one of those > pieces of "post-Renaissance terminology" that Jacqui unneccesarily > apologised for to aid our comprehesion of her concepts. She is hardly > suggesting, for example, that the mage casts the "Spell of Mind-editing." > Please stop being absurdly picky about minor words which will not appear > in the finak write-up of the spell and concern yourself more broadly with > the concepts and the order of the numbers. It is science fiction because it is psionic in nature. That is an inherently science fiction concept. Magic has more to do with poetry than psychology. If we are trying to develop the college, then we should try and develop the side that has had the least attention over the years, rather than walk down the path most taken. Mind-editing is a term that one finds in science fiction and space opera regularly. And, although that is fine in that genre, it jars in fantasy. I don't think it's absurdly picky. I think it's germane. This is a game based around words and the way we use them to describe something. You can change a spell description, and take it from being boring to interesting without in anyway altering the mechanics. That is not minor. That is a powerful effect. One that we regularly ignore. > > > 2) Given that this is a mental attack, why would this require an unmodified > > WP check. Surely, this is a simple Magic Resistance, with bonuses from > > MindCloak and Counterspells... > > Frankly, I see nothing wrong with magic that requires a specific > stat-check to nullify its effect -- we already have plenty of valid > examples. Given the "mind-numbing" thesis of undetectiblity, WP is > acceptible. Why? Spell that affect a victim (or victims) and not the environment have normal Magic Resistance saving throws. Why should this spell be different, irrelevant of it's mind-numbing nature. Is the spell harder to resist, somehow? If so, why? In another vein, this spell makes WP a critically important stat (again). And, as written, may even not allow the bonus of an Enchantment. That makes the spell much tougher than it is already. And in yet another vein, this spell does not avoid the hopeless mess of bookkeeping that the DM has to do to work out who can see who, which was the original point of this thread. People may have chosen to wander off the thread in other directions, but I believe this to be an occasion where they have returned to the original point of departure, with precious little added to the body of human knowledge. My suggestions in this particular thread address the bookkeeping hassles, but I have attempted to do so in other posts. > >> 4) Transparency. The light goes straight through the concealed person! > >> This could be best explained as an enchantment, and therefore it may > >> well be the E&E version. Why it should cease when the concealed person > >> attacks another I cannot explain, but... > > > > Tech, tech, tech... > > Sorry why is this "tech"? The concept of light passing through a body -- > presumably not. Wrong, that is exactly what I mean. The rationalisation that someone is invisible because they are transparent isn't useful to spell design. It not only doesn't matter, it's the wrong idea. Create the spell, then let people make the assumption about why it works. Yes, a good idea why a spell works is handy, but it's only handy. If one were to try the same thing with TK Rage, then you might say that the spell creates a poltergeist who throws targets out of range, biting, clawing and bashing at them all the way to the range limit, or until the target stops, at which point the poltergeist loses interest. Again, all that talking about transparency is useful for is for losing flavour. If that particular approach is important to you, then a rationalisation like: The adept travels along a path that borders the mortal realm, and is subject to most of its laws and limitations, except that they cannot be seen, except by those people who have Witchsight. At Ranks greater than 15, the adept has such control over the path they tread that they can even initiate an attack and stay invisible to observers. Aside from becoming invisible, they acquire no other special abilities as a result of this spell. That is not tech. That is magic. And feels like magic, too. > The confusion why a specific spell ceases when the target > attacks [except, of course, at rank 15+] ? -- that has NOTHING to do > with Tech, tech, tech ... Didn't say it did. > > Personally I feel that magic, like Greek philosophy, should be exceeding > logical -- merely that many of it founding assumptions are divorced from > reality as we players know it. Of course, the overiding consideration > is that we are actually playing a game. My view is that magic should be cool, and bugger logic. It should engender wonder and amazement. It shouldn't make me want to break out my calculator. Aside from anything else, to build a logical construct out of something like magic would require your axioms to be bloody near perfect. And you wouldn't have the luxury of the real world to tell you when something was badly cocked up, either. You only get the particles you want to have in an imaginary game. Jim. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Nov 13 17:35:34 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id RAA09461; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 17:35:34 +1300 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (root@tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id RAA09449 ; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 17:35:33 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p15-max28.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.103.207]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA05827 ; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 17:24:44 +1300 Message-Id: <199811130424.RAA05827@smtp2.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: Reverse engineering concealment magics Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 17:18:48 +1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. ---------- > From: Martin Dickson > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Subject: Re: Reverse engineering concealment magics > Date: Friday, November 13, 1998 8:50 AM > > > Jim Arona wrote: > > Not bad...I like the idea of becoming translucent like water...That's kind > > of cool. Being transparent like air doesn't feel right. > > Jim > > There is a way of "being transparent like air"... it is called Gaseous Form or > Wind Walk... its just that you do more than just become transparent. Gaseous Form turns you into a mist...These are usually visible, and pretty suspicious if you're creeping around inside. Wind Walk doesn't make you invisible in any way. That's one of those things that some people have played for ages. All it does is change you into a small private wind, that looks like you. People can make you out, although they may not be able to make out your features easily, I suppose. Nevertheless, Gaseous Form isn't bad for sneaking around somewhere...I wouldn't be keen on using it past a forge, though... > Transparent/translucent like water is a nice idea. Cf. "What good is a glass > dagger". (Niven?) > > I am much in favour of the idea that Elementalists should be able to: > > a) survive in their element and > b) take on aspects of their element Yes, well Fire mages can happily enough. Gurps has various elemental body spells...Body of fire, Body of water, Body of stone...They're kind of cool... I really like the Body of water spells...'Course the only hassle with turning into water is that you can't go uphill. Jim. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Nov 13 17:35:35 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id RAA09472; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 17:35:35 +1300 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (root@tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id RAA09460 ; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 17:35:34 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p15-max28.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.103.207]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA05830 ; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 17:24:45 +1300 Message-Id: <199811130424.RAA05830@smtp2.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: Reverse engineering concealment magics Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 17:23:16 +1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. ---------- > From: Andrew Withy (FAL AKL) > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Subject: RE: Reverse engineering concealment magics > Date: Friday, November 13, 1998 9:14 AM > > > >Earth mages get various abilities drawn from nature and the domains of both > >flora and fauna. Blending/Chameleon effects seem to fall in that area. > > So is stealth, climbing, flight, see in the dark, telescopic vision, > >hibernation, poison, etc. We don't give Earth mages these abilities. Well, we do give them stealth bonuses, because in effect, that is what Walking Unseen and Blending are. > Blending/Chameleon should only be in Earth because we believe it adds to > the game. Don't put abilities in _because_ they fit, but only put them > in _if_ they fit. I think it does fit inside of the Earth college. It sounds right to me that Earth mages should be able to hide well in the open...The Earth itself conceals them...I'd like the spell changed so that it could conceal their passing, as well, so that they become harder to follow. Jim. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Nov 13 21:38:24 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id VAA09700; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 21:38:24 +1300 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (root@tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id VAA09691 ; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 21:38:23 +1300 Received: from [206.18.99.6] (p6-max9.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.99.6]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA24726 ; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 21:27:32 +1300 Message-Id: <199811130827.VAA24726@smtp2.ihug.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 21:28:43 +1300 Subject: Re: Concentration From: flamis@pop.ihug.co.nz (Jacqui Smith) To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >Sustained >A spell or ritual that has =ECSustained=EE as part of its duration= requires the >Adept to passively concentrate. The spell is immediately dissipated= if the >Adept loses consciousness or chooses to stop sustaining the spell.= At any >particular time an adept may only sustain 1 spell (+ 1 / 3 points= of >Willpower over 10). In order to make a change to the spell, the= target >must be within the range of the spell, and a Magical Pass action= is required. > >Temperature Alteration (Fire G-2) C Waaaah!=20 Surely the most obvious use of Temperature Alteration is so that= I gets a nice cosy SLEEP! In other words, lose consciousness... =46lamis Might one ask why you changed the definitions from those voted in= a year or two ago? Aside from the above, the list of spells looks good. Jacqui -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Nov 13 21:38:20 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id VAA09688; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 21:38:20 +1300 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (root@tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id VAA09677 ; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 21:38:18 +1300 Received: from [206.18.99.6] (p6-max9.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.99.6]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA24711 ; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 21:27:24 +1300 Message-Id: <199811130827.VAA24711@smtp2.ihug.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 21:28:35 +1300 Subject: Re: Reverse engineering concealment magics From: flamis@pop.ihug.co.nz (Jacqui Smith) To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >Mind-editing is a term that one finds in science fiction and space opera >regularly. And, although that is fine in that genre, it jars in fantasy. >I don't think it's absurdly picky. I think it's germane. This is a game >based around words and the way we use them to describe something. You can >change a spell description, and take it from being boring to interesting >without in anyway altering the mechanics. That is not minor. That is a >powerful effect. One that we regularly ignore. Hummm... I was trying to invent a generic term that I *hadn't* seen used before for messing with the other guy's marbles. Obviously "mind-editting" has been used somewhere and I haven't come across it. I was trying to avoid connotations of psionics. >And in yet another vein, this spell does not avoid the hopeless mess of >bookkeeping that the DM has to do to work out who can see who, which was >the original point of this thread. People may have chosen to wander off the >thread in other directions, but I believe this to be an occasion where they >have returned to the original point of departure, with precious little >added to the body of human knowledge. It does help actually. Most parties will have only one Mind mage, and with the spell being self only + 1/x ranks there will only be one Undetectability spell running on the PCs. That reduces the book-keeping to simply a matter of who can see the group of PCs and that's easy. >The adept travels along a path that borders the mortal realm, and is >subject to most of its laws and limitations, except that they cannot be >seen, except by those people who have Witchsight. At Ranks greater than 15, >the adept has such control over the path they tread that they can even >initiate an attack and stay invisible to observers. Darn it. I should have remembered that one. That's the way Invisibility works in Empire of the Petal Throne and I played enough of that once upon a time. The concealed person is partially off plane... which is why the spell called "See Other Planes" let them be seen. Now, that was a *nice* spell. Got my character into heaps of trouble... Jacqui -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Nov 13 21:38:35 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id VAA09727; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 21:38:35 +1300 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (root@tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id VAA09706 ; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 21:38:33 +1300 Received: from [206.18.99.6] (p6-max9.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.99.6]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA24723 ; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 21:27:31 +1300 Message-Id: <199811130827.VAA24723@smtp2.ihug.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 21:28:41 +1300 Subject: Re: Hide and Sneak From: flamis@pop.ihug.co.nz (Jacqui Smith) To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >Negative, Jacqui...Subtractive modifiers to a base chance do not count an >Enchantment...In the case of Stealth, the equation is 3 x AG + (5 x Rank in >Stealth) + (2 x Rank in Spy) + (2 x Rank in Assassin) + (Rank in Thief) + >(Race bonus) + (Armour modifier) + (Enchantment Rank + 1) + (Other weird >magic) minus (1 to 3 x PC). >Your Enchantment, assuming you are the potential observer, does not in any >way help you defeat the person who is using Stealth. >In the worst case, then without using any weird items, the chance to sneak >becomes 219%, 240% if under the effects of a Rank 20 Wraithcloak. This >means that for that character to have 25% chance of failing to sneak, then >an alert and expectant observer would have to have a PC, modified or >otherwise, of 48, or 55...That is frightening... >Let me remind you, Enchantments never modify stats. They just modify >success chances. You are so right... Currently the character in question can only manage a 3xPC of 99% when concentrating on looking. Not nearly enough... Jacqui -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Nov 13 23:06:47 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id XAA09840; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 23:06:47 +1300 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (root@tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id XAA09831 ; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 23:06:46 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p14-max39.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.106.142]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA07324 ; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 22:55:55 +1300 Message-Id: <199811130955.WAA07324@smtp1.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: Reverse engineering concealment magics Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 22:54:17 +1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. ---------- > From: Jacqui Smith > >And in yet another vein, this spell does not avoid the hopeless mess of > >bookkeeping that the DM has to do to work out who can see who, which was > >the original point of this thread. People may have chosen to wander off the > >thread in other directions, but I believe this to be an occasion where they > >have returned to the original point of departure, with precious little > >added to the body of human knowledge. > > It does help actually. Most parties will have only one Mind mage, and with > the spell being self only + 1/x ranks there will only be one > Undetectability spell running on the PCs. That reduces the book-keeping to > simply a matter of who can see the group of PCs and that's easy. > Okay, I'm prepared to accept that some of the bookkeeping is reduced...An ideal solution is one where you don't have to make die rolls for all the NPCs...Frankly, I don't care too much about who players can see, they, after all can keep track of who they can and can't see. If they don't know, then obviously they can't see the character. Jim. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Nov 13 23:06:46 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id XAA09827; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 23:06:46 +1300 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (root@tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id XAA09817 ; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 23:06:45 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p14-max39.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.106.142]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA07319 ; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 22:55:54 +1300 Message-Id: <199811130955.WAA07319@smtp1.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: Hide and Sneak Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 22:49:30 +1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. ---------- > From: Jacqui Smith > > You are so right... Currently the character in question can only manage a > 3xPC of 99% when concentrating on looking. Not nearly enough... > I think that the chance is okay, so long as the multiplier can be increased, or if there are situational modifiers...At the moment, if you can sneak at all, you can just about guarantee success. Mind you, you can often be in a situation where you can't use stealth at all, which moderates the nastiness of the situation... Jim. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Nov 13 23:06:45 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id XAA09816; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 23:06:45 +1300 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (root@tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id XAA09805 ; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 23:06:44 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p14-max39.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.106.142]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA07316 ; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 22:55:53 +1300 Message-Id: <199811130955.WAA07316@smtp1.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: Concentration Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 22:42:45 +1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. ---------- From: Jacqui Smith > >Temperature Alteration (Fire G-2) C Waaaah! Surely the most obvious use of Temperature Alteration is so that I gets a nice cosy SLEEP! In other words, lose consciousness... Agreed. What is the point in making the spell sustained? Jim. Mystified. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from --