From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Nov 16 10:31:20 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id KAA13378; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 10:31:20 +1300 Received: from mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (mailhost.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.1.4]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id KAA13366 ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 10:31:18 +1300 Received: from sci4 (lbr-122-42.lbrsc.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.122.42]) by mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (8.9.1/8.9.1/8.9.1-ua) with SMTP id KAA06544 ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 10:20:02 +1300 (NZDT) Message-Id: <199811152120.KAA06544@mailhost.auckland.ac.nz> Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 10:23:44 +0000 Subject: Re: Reverse engineering concealment magics X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) From: "Michael Parkinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-to: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Jim, and interested bystanders, > > > This kind of thing is not in the flavour of a fantasy roleplaying > > > system. > > > > Please do not assume that magic has to be irrational, or assume that > > concepts underlying the game should be incomprehensible. On the > > contrary, the game had been conceived as a *game* with all the balances > > that involves. All modifications should acknowledge that it is a game. > > That is not my assumption. My assumption, such as it is, is that the game > doesn't need to have an underlying, logical or even consistent rationale. Actually the main point I failed to make explicit (because I ran several ideas together) is that we are playing a game with many underlying concepts -- that the rules are fundamentally fair to all participants, at least initially; that "game-balance" gives restrictions on what can be inflicted on the players; etc. In practice what this means is that spells must have balance -- ideally within the game-world (in the rare cases when this is possible) but ABSOLUTELY in comparison to each other, in terms of cost/benefit to the player. We ourselves also have the added complexity in requiring moderate balance between GM rewards and punishments. etc > The only thing such rationalisations have to do is capture the feeling of > the genre, and provide a playing environment that can sustain a fair amount > of play. > Anything else is dross, however nice or nasty that dross is. > [Cut passages, regarding Undetectability] > > > > > > > 1) Science fiction once agains rears its ugly head. > > > > You are confused again. Why is this "science fiction" ? I assume you > > object to the term "Mind-editting" -- this is, I assume, one of those > > pieces of "post-Renaissance terminology" that Jacqui unneccesarily > > apologised for to aid our comprehesion of her concepts. She is hardly > > suggesting, for example, that the mage casts the "Spell of Mind-editing." > > > Please stop being absurdly picky about minor words which will not appear > > in the finak write-up of the spell and concern yourself more broadly with > > > the concepts and the order of the numbers. > > It is science fiction because it is psionic in nature. You're being dogmatic and illogical. It is science fiction because you see it as science fiction. The *effects* Jacqui was suggesting (only some of which I agree with) might be interpreted as SF, had they been used, say, by Asimov. However the "mind-razing" suggested is also OBVIOUSLY interpretable as fantasy -- indeed similar *effects* have been used, in Western fantasy literature: be it Arthurian Romance or Kurtz' Camber Series, or whatever. > That is an inherently science fiction concept. Magic has more to do with > poetry than psychology. It is *not* inherently SF -- it requires context. Indeed there are many bad fantasy novels out there because the author has failed to have a convincing setting or treatment to concepts which have been recycled from much better fantasy works > > Frankly, I see nothing wrong with magic that requires a specific > > stat-check to nullify its effect -- we already have plenty of valid > > examples. Given the "mind-numbing" thesis of undetectiblity, WP is > > acceptible. > > Why? Spell that affect a victim (or victims) and not the environment have > normal Magic Resistance saving throws. Why should this spell be different, > irrelevant of it's mind-numbing nature. Is the spell harder to resist, > somehow? If so, why? There are spells out there which measure against the victim's stats: e.g., strength checks to break out because the effect of the magic is acting against the victim's strength. Of course ALL mind-magic somewhat considers the WP of the victim(s). The point is NOT that the spell is harder to resist, the point is that it is, perhaps, a direct attack on the willpower of the victim. It makes reasonable sense. > In another vein, this spell makes WP a critically important stat (again). So? If you think WP is too powerful, seek "abuses" elsewhere e.g. the WP restriction on Whitefire and Incineration. > And, as written, may even not allow the bonus of an Enchantment. ?? > That makes the spell much tougher than it is already. Acknowledged -- & therefore requires due consideration, and possibly (??) tweaking in other aspects. > And in yet another vein, this spell does not avoid the hopeless mess of > bookkeeping that the DM has to do to work out who can see who, which was > the original point of this thread. People may have chosen to wander off the > thread in other directions, but I believe this to be an occasion where they > have returned to the original point of departure, with precious little > added to the body of human knowledge. Agreed . If it worries you, ignore it; nothing will come of it since Game changes require the consensus of many GMs (or DM for those that play solely in Dungeons) -- or are we all wandering off? > > > > Sorry why is this "tech"? The concept of light passing through a body -- > > presumably not. > > Wrong, that is exactly what I mean. The rationalisation that someone is > invisible because they are transparent isn't useful to spell design. Rubbish The word does NOT mean "tech" or even imply it _unless_ *you* are reading it in such a context. Was Dante writing "tech" or Science Fiction when he described the transparent (sic!!!) form of Cato and the souls in Purgatory?? CONTEXT is overriding. Transparent is a word that describes an EFFECT -- that effect can be fact (glass), SF (H.G. Wells), factoid (Celestial spheres), or fantasy (DQ magic). DQ Magic should capable of anything that we wish, provided that is balanced within the structure of the GAME. If you object to magic which makes a target *transparent*, presumably you object to magic that makes a target *translucent*. So how do you feel about magic that makes things *opaque* ? Michael Michael Parkinson Assistant Librarian Email: m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz Science Library Phone: (9) 3737 599 x 5858 University of Auckland Fax: (9) 3082 304 -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Nov 16 10:59:54 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id KAA13416; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 10:59:54 +1300 Received: from peace.com (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id KAA13407 ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 10:59:47 +1300 Received: via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/pcnz2.7) id KAA07428; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 10:48:31 +1300 Message-ID: <364F4DBA.C6C3A253@peace.com> Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 10:55:06 +1300 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5b2 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Reverse engineering concealment magics Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Jim Arona wrote: > > From: Keith Smith > > > So what you're saying is that we should be trying to describe things in a > > way that fits with the genre and also provides a mental picture of the > > effect that we're trying to achieve i.e. a viewing screen as a 'piece of > > crystal that illusionary moving images appear on'. > > No, I don't. We shouldn't have viewing screens if we can at all avoid it. Avoiding "viewing screens" no matter how they are described would suggest avoiding Crystal Balls and "Palantir". Avoiding things because they have a modern pseudo-analog would seem to imply that many fantasy devices would have to be avoided. > Yes, on occasions you might incidentally describe something that has a > technological flavour, but it shouldn't be your aim. Here are somethings to > be avoided: Glasses, The first definitive historical representation of spectacles dates to the late 13th century, well pre-dating such "modern" technological inventions as full plate armour and rapiers. > television, pistols, The ancient and venerable "Gods" of Alusia decreed (presumably) at some point that "there shall be no gunpowder". As a result that are (generally) no guns or cannons on Alusia. However, that said, if a GM wished to run an area (perhaps on another world) and use a technological base of the same level as that expressed in Alusia (rapiers, full pate, carracks) then guns and even pistols would not be anachronistic. The first historical use of cannons in battle is around the middle of the 1300s, and hand cannons existed not long after. Long smooth-bore muskets were in use by the very early 1500s, and Henry VIII even owned a _breech-loading_ fowling gun. > telephones, watches, etc Spring powered clocks should be at the forefront of Alusian technology, and whilst a "wrist watch" is certainly too modern, one might just squeeze to a largish "pocket watch" or "Nuremberg Egg". > If you have to use them, then I suppose you're forced to describe them in a > fantastical way. The fantasy genre is quite resilient and can co-exist with various levels or eras of technology. Fantasy RPGs tend to set up their world as a pseudo-historical era, and run the full range from Ice Age cave-people (GURPS Ice Age, Og - The Caveman RPG), through various ancient and pseduo/fantastical ancient world eras (lots of other GURPS, Runequest), through Dark Ages/early feudal (Harn) to middle ages (core D & D) to musketeering/swashbuckling (En Garde, Pirates and Privateers) to Victorian (Castle Falkenstein, Space 1889). Some of the most popular recent fantasy RPGs are even set "in the now" (Vampire, Mage) and there is even at least one case of a post-modern sci-fi/fantasy RPG (Shadowrun). What I am tyring to get at here is that simply stating that an RPG is "fantasy" does not define its historical/pseudo-historical period or technological base. I would much rather that DQ GMs settled on a pseudo-historical era that we can all be happy with (or at least agree upon), work out how that would be modified by a moderate amount of DQ flavour magic, and then stick with it. The things that should/might exist in that society should then be apparent, as will those things to avoid. Cheers, Martin -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Nov 16 11:02:09 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id LAA13441; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 11:02:09 +1300 Received: from smtp.worley.co.nz (smtp.worley.co.nz [202.36.210.250]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id LAA13431 ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 11:02:05 +1300 Received: by smtp.worley.co.nz(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.1 (569.2 2-6-1998)) id 4C2566BD.007EAF29 ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 11:03:43 +1200 X-Lotus-FromDomain: WORLEY CONSULTANTS Message-ID: <4C2566BD.007C446F.00@smtp.worley.co.nz> Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 10:51:00 +1200 Subject: Re: Reverse engineering concealment magics Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline From: amtennant@worley.co.nz To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >> Why? Spell that affect a victim (or victims) and not the environment have >> normal Magic Resistance saving throws. Why should this spell be different, >> irrelevant of it's mind-numbing nature. Is the spell harder to resist, >> somehow? If so, why? >There are spells out there which measure against the victim's stats: e.g., >strength checks to break out because the effect of the magic is acting >against the victim's strength. Of course ALL mind-magic somewhat >considers the WP of the victim(s). The point is NOT that the spell is >harder to resist, the point is that it is, perhaps, a direct attack on >the willpower of the victim. It makes reasonable sense. That's not a valid comparison. There are no spells which make a "direct attack" on strength. There ARE spells which have a physical effect component which requires strength to counteract. Even spells such as Sleep Gas give you a resistance to part of the spell and a Stat check to another bit. Such spells are truly horrible. Personally I don't think they should exist. If you are using magic to directly attack someone, they should be able to resist the effect. I don't have a problem with spells such as Earth Tremor which use the magic to create a physical effect to make you do Stat rolls. This sort of indirect magic is, again, very tough, Earth Elemental being a good example of it..... Elemental: UURGG. SMASH. PC: "I resist! Hah hah!" PC: "ow...." >> In another vein, this spell makes WP a critically important stat (again). >So? If you think WP is too powerful, seek "abuses" elsewhere e.g. the WP >restriction on Whitefire and Incineration. WP is easily the most important stat. "Too powerful" is not quite the right phrase. I slways thought those restrictions were really weird and pointless. By the time you can afford to buy either spell, you can afford a greater. Look. my BC is over their WP.... L8R, Adam. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Nov 16 13:08:04 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id NAA13699; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 13:08:04 +1300 Received: from smtp.worley.co.nz (smtp.worley.co.nz [202.36.210.250]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id NAA13688 ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 13:08:02 +1300 Received: by smtp.worley.co.nz(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.1 (569.2 2-6-1998)) id 4C2566BE.00066127 ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 13:09:40 +1200 X-Lotus-FromDomain: WORLEY CONSULTANTS Message-ID: <4C2566BE.000461EB.00@smtp.worley.co.nz> Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 12:56:52 +1200 Subject: Historical stuff Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline From: amtennant@worley.co.nz To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >The first historical use of cannons in battle is around the middle of >the 1300s, and hand cannons existed not long after. I think the Chinese would argue with those dates.... ;) Of course, Chinese "historical" battle reports also include mention of dragons participating in battles..... L8R, Adam. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Nov 16 14:30:04 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id OAA13864; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 14:30:04 +1300 Received: from peace.com (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id OAA13853 ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 14:30:03 +1300 Received: via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/pcnz2.7) id OAA18571; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 14:18:42 +1300 Message-ID: <364F7EFD.77E44654@peace.com> Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 14:25:17 +1300 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5b2 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Historical stuff Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. amtennant@worley.co.nz wrote: > >The first historical use of cannons in battle is around the middle of > >the 1300s, and hand cannons existed not long after. > > I think the Chinese would argue with those dates.... > ;) Err... quite. I must remember to be less Euro-centric. :) The Chinese largely used gunpowder powered rocketry rather than cannons -- though I am not quite sure why. It may have had to do with metallurgy... I vaguely recall that the only Chinese cannons I have seen pictures of were bronze. > Of course, Chinese "historical" battle reports also include mention > of dragons participating in battles..... That's OK. One of the French chroniclers, in order to explain their defeat at Crecy, claimed that a ravine had suddenly appeared in front of the French Knights and that they had all plummeted into it. Cheers, Martin -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Nov 16 14:48:51 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id OAA13911; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 14:48:51 +1300 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (root@tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id OAA13901 ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 14:48:44 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p217-tnt-ak-1.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.111.217]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA20273 ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 14:37:21 +1300 Message-Id: <199811160137.OAA20273@smtp1.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: Reverse engineering concealment magics Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 14:35:36 +1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. ---------- > From: Michael Parkinson > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Subject: Re: Reverse engineering concealment magics > Date: Monday, November 16, 1998 11:23 PM > > > Jim, and interested bystanders, > > > > > This kind of thing is not in the flavour of a fantasy roleplaying > > > > system. > > > > > > Please do not assume that magic has to be irrational, or assume that > > > concepts underlying the game should be incomprehensible. On the > > > contrary, the game had been conceived as a *game* with all the balances > > > that involves. All modifications should acknowledge that it is a game. > > > > That is not my assumption. My assumption, such as it is, is that the game > > doesn't need to have an underlying, logical or even consistent rationale. > > Actually the main point I failed to make explicit (because I ran several > ideas together) is that we are playing a game with many underlying > concepts -- that the rules are fundamentally fair to all participants, at > least initially; that "game-balance" gives restrictions on what can be > inflicted on the players; etc. In practice what this means is that spells > must have balance -- ideally within the game-world (in the rare cases when > this is possible) but ABSOLUTELY in comparison to each other, in terms of > cost/benefit to the player. We ourselves also have the added complexity in > requiring moderate balance between GM rewards and punishments. etc Then I am at a loss to know what your point is, aside from that elucidation. If you are saying that the spells must have balance, then that's fine, although pretty circular, really. I don't think imbalanced spells are useful to a game, in general, either. I don't think that rationalisations have any effect on balance, or if they do, they probably shouldn't. > > > The only thing such rationalisations have to do is capture the feeling of > > the genre, and provide a playing environment that can sustain a fair amount > > of play. > > Anything else is dross, however nice or nasty that dross is. > > > [Cut passages, regarding Undetectability] > > > > > > > > > > 1) Science fiction once agains rears its ugly head. > > > > > > You are confused again. Why is this "science fiction" ? I assume you > > > object to the term "Mind-editting" -- this is, I assume, one of those > > > pieces of "post-Renaissance terminology" that Jacqui unneccesarily > > > apologised for to aid our comprehesion of her concepts. She is hardly > > > suggesting, for example, that the mage casts the "Spell of Mind-editing." > > > > > Please stop being absurdly picky about minor words which will not appear > > > in the finak write-up of the spell and concern yourself more broadly with > > > > > the concepts and the order of the numbers. > > > > It is science fiction because it is psionic in nature. > > You're being dogmatic and illogical. It is science fiction because you > see it as science fiction. The *effects* Jacqui was suggesting (only > some of which I agree with) might be interpreted as SF, had they been > used, say, by Asimov. However the "mind-razing" suggested is also > OBVIOUSLY interpretable as fantasy -- indeed similar *effects* have been > used, in Western fantasy literature: be it Arthurian Romance or Kurtz' > Camber Series, or whatever. I'm not being dogmatic, nor am I being illogical...Yes, you can point to a number of books in the fantasy genre which use psionics as the underpinning of magic. However, in general, such books use psionics as the underpinning of all magic, i.e. all casters in Katherine Kurtz' book are psionic to some degree or other...Mind you, all the characters in a Katherine Kurtz book are completely fascinated by clothes, and can take 3 pages to describe what they plan to wear to the next coronation...Your psionic ability is something bred into you, and not something you can teach to the ungifted. A lot of that series is devoted to the concept of the inheritance of abilities and basically post-Mendelian genetics. That isn't fantasy, either. The series is really a kind of fake historical/romance, with a little science fiction added. I don't want to go on about this, because it's wandering from the point, as far as I can see, but here, again is my contention. It is not necessary to have a rationalisation that defines how something works. It is enough that we know what happens. If a rationalisation makes that clear, and adds to the flavour, fine. If, however, the rationalisation brings in another, out of genre, flavour, then you have reduced the colour in the world, not added to it. Another point that I'd like to make is that if the spell has a particular rationalisation asscociated to it, then an argument can be made along these lines: Invisibility (Transparency or Light Warping) make the light pass around or through you. Therefore, if I am invisible in this way, then I can't be harmed by Solar Flare...The light passes around or through me....This kind of thing is eminently logical, but do you want to see it in the game? I believe it to be better to say that the spell has a particular effect, and leave the rationalisations alone, really. If you have to use one, use one that's based on the fantastic. The fantastic is less prone to the tyranny of logic, and cannot be as easily manipulated. > > > That is an inherently science fiction concept. Magic has more to do with > > poetry than psychology. > > It is *not* inherently SF -- it requires context. Indeed there are many > bad fantasy novels out there because the author has failed to have a > convincing setting or treatment to concepts which have been recycled from > much better fantasy works It IS inherently science fiction, Michael. It's almost always associated with genetics, and it deals in terms that are often derived from modern psychiatry. Context is important, but some devices carry their own associations. If, for example, something is described as glasses, then we make a number of unconscious connections as to what that thing is like. If we describe that thing as spectacles, then we make other assumptions. Psionics is sometimes used as a rationalisation for magic in the fantasy genre. It has a number of associations that can increase the richness of the story. This, however, is not a luxury that exists in the DQ world. There are colleges that have no connection to psionics, or if they do, it would be a hell of a stretch. Tell me what connection Summoners might have with psionics... > > > > Frankly, I see nothing wrong with magic that requires a specific > > > stat-check to nullify its effect -- we already have plenty of valid > > > examples. Given the "mind-numbing" thesis of undetectiblity, WP is > > > acceptible. > > > > Why? Spell that affect a victim (or victims) and not the environment have > > normal Magic Resistance saving throws. Why should this spell be different, > > irrelevant of it's mind-numbing nature. Is the spell harder to resist, > > somehow? If so, why? > > There are spells out there which measure against the victim's stats: e.g., > strength checks to break out because the effect of the magic is acting > against the victim's strength. Of course ALL mind-magic somewhat > considers the WP of the victim(s). The point is NOT that the spell is > harder to resist, the point is that it is, perhaps, a direct attack on > the willpower of the victim. It makes reasonable sense. It is almost impossible to argue whether or not the spell makes reasonable sense or not, from a logical point of view, and within the framework of the spell. 1) There is no empirical data. 2) None of us have any idea whether or not it is easy to confuse the minds of observers in such a manner. We are, therefore, left to make some judgements on how we want the spell to work, bearing in mind the effect on the rest of the game. We don't work out whether or not such a form of magic is a reasonably capable of doing something like that, and then applying the rules. > > > In another vein, this spell makes WP a critically important stat (again). > > So? If you think WP is too powerful, seek "abuses" elsewhere e.g. the WP > restriction on Whitefire and Incineration. Michael, if there are other abuses of WP, then it is particularly important not to throw petrol on the fire. Merely because there are other abuses doesn't mean we ignore new ones. > > > And, as written, may even not allow the bonus of an Enchantment. As written, the observer gets an unmodified 1 x WP check.. > > ?? > > > That makes the spell much tougher than it is already. > > Acknowledged -- & therefore requires due consideration, and possibly (??) > tweaking in other aspects. > > > And in yet another vein, this spell does not avoid the hopeless mess of > > bookkeeping that the DM has to do to work out who can see who, which was > > the original point of this thread. People may have chosen to wander off the > > thread in other directions, but I believe this to be an occasion where they > > have returned to the original point of departure, with precious little > > added to the body of human knowledge. > > Agreed . If it worries you, ignore it; nothing will come of it > since Game changes require the consensus of many GMs (or DM for those > that play solely in Dungeons) -- or are we all wandering off? That remark is snide, and pretty unanswerable, really. You have implied something I can only deny, without much opportunity to bring a counter argument. However, if that's the kind of foot-stamping you wish to descend to, feel free. > > > > > > Sorry why is this "tech"? The concept of light passing through a body -- > > > presumably not. > > > > Wrong, that is exactly what I mean. The rationalisation that someone is > > invisible because they are transparent isn't useful to spell design. > > Rubbish The word does NOT mean "tech" or even imply it _unless_ *you* > are reading it in such a context. Was Dante writing "tech" or Science > Fiction when he described the transparent (sic!!!) form of Cato and the > souls in Purgatory?? CONTEXT is overriding. Transparent is a word that > describes an EFFECT -- that effect can be fact (glass), SF (H.G. Wells), > factoid (Celestial spheres), or fantasy (DQ magic). Dante was not writing fantasy, and neither was H.G.Wells. However, you make a good point. Describing someone as becoming transparent is not tech. Describing the action of the spell as making you transparent is, I think. > > DQ Magic should capable of anything that we wish, provided that is > balanced within the structure of the GAME. If you object to magic which > makes a target *transparent*, presumably you object to magic that makes > a target *translucent*. So how do you feel about magic that makes things > *opaque* ? I don't think that DQ is ready for an improvised magic system, yet, nor do I think it has the people capable of administering it, either. I also think that this has nothing to do with the discussion at hand. We are talking about whether or not one should use rationalisations as a part of spell design. My view is that the rationalisation should be of a fantastical nature, for reasons I've stated elsewhere. I don't believe it is helpful to work out different ways to achieve the same effect, in this case, concealment. All that we really need to know is what the spell allows. In fact, we don't even need to provide a rationalisation as to how something works. That could be something a player does, for all that it adds to the game. (I am not saying that it is a bad thing, I'm saying that it has little impact on the game as a whole if I rationalise Harming Entity as being the pain inflicted on believers and unbelievers alike for their sins, by Chantis.) As for your other questions, Michael, I like the idea of a water spell that makes the caster translucent, and I've always thought there ought to be a spell that attacks concealment spells, making their users obvious. Jim. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Nov 16 15:14:49 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id PAA13984; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 15:14:49 +1300 Received: from smtp.worley.co.nz (smtp.worley.co.nz [202.36.210.250]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id PAA13973 ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 15:14:47 +1300 Received: by smtp.worley.co.nz(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.1 (569.2 2-6-1998)) id 4C2566BE.0011FBBD ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 15:16:25 +1200 X-Lotus-FromDomain: WORLEY CONSULTANTS Message-ID: <4C2566BE.00109BA1.00@smtp.worley.co.nz> Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 15:03:34 +1200 Subject: Re: Historical stuff Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline From: amtennant@worley.co.nz To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >> I think the Chinese would argue with those dates.... >> ;) >Err... quite. I must remember to be less Euro-centric. :) The Chinese >largely used gunpowder powered rocketry rather than cannons -- though I am >not quite sure why. It may have had to do with metallurgy... I vaguely >recall that the only Chinese cannons I have seen pictures of were bronze. Yeah, I'm pretty sure they only used bronze cannons too. Mostly rockets as you say. >> Of course, Chinese "historical" battle reports also include mention >> of dragons participating in battles..... >That's OK. One of the French chroniclers, in order to explain their >defeat at Crecy, claimed that a ravine had suddenly appeared in front of >the French Knights and that they had all plummeted into it. That's pretty funny. I wonder if it was just a blatant lie or they'd failed to scout... It's a bit like a certain bunch of Teutonic knights falling through an ice flow during a battle. L8R, Adam. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Nov 16 15:25:37 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id PAA14026; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 15:25:37 +1300 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (root@tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id PAA14015 ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 15:25:36 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p217-tnt-ak-1.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.111.217]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA20827 ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 15:14:12 +1300 Message-Id: <199811160214.PAA20827@smtp2.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: Reverse engineering concealment magics Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 15:12:27 +1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. ---------- > From: Martin Dickson > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Subject: Re: Reverse engineering concealment magics > Date: Monday, November 16, 1998 10:55 AM > > > Jim Arona wrote: > > No, I don't. We shouldn't have viewing screens if we can at all avoid it. > > Avoiding "viewing screens" no matter how they are described would > suggest > avoiding Crystal Balls and "Palantir". Avoiding things because they have > a > modern pseudo-analog would seem to imply that many fantasy devices would > have > to be avoided. Well, I'm really talking about things that really are viewing screens, like on the Enterprise. I don't think crystal balls are a problem. > > > Yes, on occasions you might incidentally describe something that has a > > technological flavour, but it shouldn't be your aim. Here are somethings to > > be avoided: Glasses, > > The first definitive historical representation of spectacles dates to > the late > 13th century, well pre-dating such "modern" technological inventions as > full > plate armour and rapiers. > Possibly so, but I mean glasses...Like sunglasses, shades, visors, etc...They all have a tech edge. > > > telephones, watches, etc > > Spring powered clocks should be at the forefront of Alusian technology, > and > whilst a "wrist watch" is certainly too modern, one might just squeeze > to a > largish "pocket watch" or "Nuremberg Egg". They were pretty useless, Martin. Most of these spring powered clocks had to be kept in one orientation (supine or pendant) to avoid becoming inaccurate...Not that they were very accurate, even then. What I'm talking about is the idea of treasure that copies the nature of technology. For example, glasses that let you see at night, a bracelet that tells you the time, regardless of the means by which they do these things. Martin wrote: > > What I am tyring to get at here is that simply stating that an RPG is > "fantasy" > does not define its historical/pseudo-historical period or technological > base. > > I would much rather that DQ GMs settled on a pseudo-historical era that > we can > all be happy with (or at least agree upon), work out how that would be > modified > by a moderate amount of DQ flavour magic, and then stick with it. The > things > that should/might exist in that society should then be apparent, as will > those > things to avoid. Well, I suppose it might. My only input so far has been one about flavour, really. I don't think it's a good idea to use something which is modelled on the modern or a science fiction world, even if it has magic as its rationalisation. It jars and attacks suspension of disbelief. It is better to use a different description altogether, if possible... We are caught, in many ways, by our own apprehensions of 'how things work', and inevitably we fall into the trap of describing things as 20th Century observers. An example of this is the Binder's ability to Detect Enchantment...We have assumed that this is a purely visual sense...But, why? It could be one that is aural in nature, for instance, or gustatory/olfactory...Personally, it would make more sense to make it something that they could smell, and if they were close enough, taste... We let people 'see' in darkness through the use of some items, but why shouldn't the action be of throwing out, say, a moonbeam, and having the obscurement of night lifted in that way? Yet, again and again, visors, glasses, and various eyewear are used. This is not about breaking the mould, and making items very different, because I think helms that let you see through darkness are fine. And I don't want to see ring and wands and all the other things associated with magic thrown out. I believe that attention to the genre is what's important, here. It may be helpful to have a particular period of history to use as the base, but I think it's simpler than that. When developing treasure, think about what flavour you're creating. If you think it has a potentially out of genre flavour, then try again. Hardly any write up is good the first time. If you have to err, err on the side of ancient, rather than modern...It is easier to live with a bronze khopesh, than it is to live with a hip-mounted, gyro-stabilised assault cannon, or even a Swiss army knife. Jim. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Nov 16 15:27:01 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id PAA14048; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 15:27:01 +1300 Received: from proxy.telebusiness.co.nz (usr44@proxy.telebusiness.co.nz [203.97.136.12]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id PAA14031 ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 15:26:57 +1300 Received: by proxy.telebusiness.co.nz with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) id ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 15:15:09 +1300 Message-ID: <01FAE6CB4A43D0118AB00020AF0F9257554D8D@proxy.telebusiness.co.nz> Subject: Healer. Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 15:15:07 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) Content-Type: text/plain From: Terry Spencer To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Hi All, If a limb is removed from an unlucky individual, can a healer reattach the limb? In your responses please indicate what categories you option falls * is supported by the rules, * is what everyone plays, * is what you think the rules should support. Terry On the keyboard of life, always keep one finger on the escape key. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Nov 16 15:33:01 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id PAA14090; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 15:33:01 +1300 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (root@tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id PAA14080 ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 15:33:00 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p217-tnt-ak-1.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.111.217]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA21518 ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 15:20:57 +1300 Message-Id: <199811160220.PAA21518@smtp2.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: Historical stuff Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 15:19:07 +1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. ---------- > From: amtennant@worley.co.nz > That's pretty funny. I wonder if it was just a blatant lie or they'd failed > to scout... > > It's a bit like a certain bunch of Teutonic knights falling through an ice > flow during a battle. There was one where a legion of Romans were crossing into Switzerland, and they came to a flat, still, shallow alpine lake early on a Spring morning. Two legionaires were sent to find a way across the lake, and walked about 20 feet in, over some rocks. They complained bitterly about how cold the water was, when they finally got in, which reached up to their waists. Then the whole lake froze. So, apparently did the rest of the legion, at least for a few moments....And then they all ran away... Except for the two trapped and crushed in the ice. Jim. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Nov 16 15:36:12 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id PAA14114; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 15:36:12 +1300 Received: from smtp.worley.co.nz (smtp.worley.co.nz [202.36.210.250]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id PAA14104 ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 15:36:02 +1300 Received: by smtp.worley.co.nz(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.1 (569.2 2-6-1998)) id 4C2566BE.0013F17E ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 15:37:50 +1200 X-Lotus-FromDomain: WORLEY CONSULTANTS Message-ID: <4C2566BE.001236CE.00@smtp.worley.co.nz> Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 15:25:01 +1200 Subject: Re: Healer. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline From: amtennant@worley.co.nz To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >If a limb is removed from an unlucky individual, can a healer reattach the >limb? I'd tend to think so. >In your responses please indicate what categories you option falls >* is supported by the rules, It would depend how the limb was removed and where on the limb the removal occured. E.g. if the limb were pullled off at the shoulder by a Troll, the healer would have to repair the tendons/veins/arteries and then heal the flesh and skin. If it was hacked off below the shoulder, then repair bones is required too. All the above seems to be possible via the rules. It could take quite a while though. Probably faster than regen. >* is what everyone plays, It's weird, but I don't remember seeing anyone re-attach a limb on adventure. >* is what you think the rules should support. It should, and I think it does currently. ( I don't have a rulebook with me ). L8R, Adam. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Nov 16 15:42:30 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id PAA14178; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 15:42:30 +1300 Received: from date.palm.cri.nz (date.palm.cri.nz [161.66.1.20]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id PAA14168 ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 15:42:29 +1300 Received: from mail1.marc.cri.nz (mail1.marc.cri.nz [161.29.1.1]) by date.palm.cri.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA01075 ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 15:31:09 +1300 (NZDT) Received: from hra1.marc.cri.nz (unverified [161.29.1.5]) by mail1.marc.cri.nz (Dr Solomon's SMTPRS 2.0.15) with ESMTP id ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 15:26:50 +1300 Message-Id: Received: from HRA1/SpoolDir by hra1.marc.cri.nz (Mercury 1.31); 16 Nov 98 15:32:01 GMT+12 Received: from SpoolDir by HRA1 (Mercury 1.31); 16 Nov 98 15:31:58 GMT+12 Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 15:31:55 GMT+1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Reverse engineering concealment magics X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01b) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT From: "Bart Janssen" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. snip > If you have to err, err on the side of ancient, rather than modern...It is > easier to live with a bronze khopesh, than it is to live with a > hip-mounted, gyro-stabilised assault cannon, or even a Swiss army knife. > Jim. In your opinion. I however find the odd anachronistic item fun. I'm sure others differ in both directions. Arguements based around the concept of which flavour is "correct" are simply expressions of opinion. Naturally since you are the best DM around your opinion carries much more importance. cheers Bart Saying Windows 95 is equal to Macintosh is like finding a potato that looks like Jesus and believing you've witnessed the second coming. -- Guy Kawasaki Bart Janssen Hort+Research Private Bag 92169 Auckland New Zealand ph 64 9 8154200 x 7279 fax 64 9 8154201 -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Nov 16 15:39:38 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id PAA14152; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 15:39:38 +1300 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (root@tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id PAA14141 ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 15:39:36 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p217-tnt-ak-1.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.111.217]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA22469 ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 15:28:19 +1300 Message-Id: <199811160228.PAA22469@smtp2.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: Healer. Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 15:26:34 +1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. ---------- > From: Terry Spencer > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Subject: Healer. > Date: Monday, November 16, 1998 3:15 PM > > > Hi All, > > If a limb is removed from an unlucky individual, can a healer reattach the > limb? > > In your responses please indicate what categories you option falls > * is supported by the rules, > * is what everyone plays, > * is what you think the rules should support. > Yes, Healers can reattach limbs. It takes exactly as much time, effort and skill as it would take to regenerate the limb, wholly. That is the rule. I have no idea what anyone else plays. I don't think that it should take that much time to reattach a lost limb. I think it should take an hour or two, I suppose, although the arm might not be functional for a long time. Nevertheless, it should take less time to become functional, say 1/3 the normal time, at a guess. Jim. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Nov 16 15:42:41 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id PAA14193; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 15:42:41 +1300 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (root@tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id PAA14184 ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 15:42:40 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p217-tnt-ak-1.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.111.217]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA22808 ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 15:31:23 +1300 Message-Id: <199811160231.PAA22808@smtp2.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: Healer. Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 15:29:39 +1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. ---------- > From: amtennant@worley.co.nz > > It would depend how the limb was removed and where on the limb the removal > occured. > E.g. if the limb were pullled off at the shoulder by a Troll, the healer > would > have to repair the tendons/veins/arteries and then heal the flesh and skin. > > If it was hacked off below the shoulder, then repair bones is required too. > > All the above seems to be possible via the rules. It could take quite a > while > though. Probably faster than regen. Nerves are considered vital organs, and they're pretty important to the functionality of the limb. Jim. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Nov 16 15:47:49 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id PAA14254; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 15:47:49 +1300 Received: from mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (mailhost.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.1.4]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id PAA14245 ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 15:47:48 +1300 Received: from sci4 (lbr-122-42.lbrsc.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.122.42]) by mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (8.9.1/8.9.1/8.9.1-ua) with SMTP id PAA21732 ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 15:36:30 +1300 (NZDT) Message-Id: <199811160236.PAA21732@mailhost.auckland.ac.nz> Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 15:40:14 +0000 Subject: Re: Reverse engineering concealment magics X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) From: "Michael Parkinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-to: m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Dear Jim & all, > > You're being dogmatic and illogical. It is science fiction because you > > see it as science fiction. The *effects* Jacqui was suggesting (only > > some of which I agree with) might be interpreted as SF, had they been > > used, say, by Asimov. However the "mind-razing" suggested is also > > OBVIOUSLY interpretable as fantasy -- indeed similar *effects* have been > > used, in Western fantasy literature: be it Arthurian Romance or Kurtz' > > Camber Series, or whatever. > > I'm not being dogmatic, nor am I being illogical... You miss the point again. You seem to decree that such&such an Effect is Psionic, therefore Science Fiction, therefore in appropriate to our game. I consider such pontification dogmatic. Presumably Mind-cloak, Mental attack, Control Animal, ESP, etc are all SF by your rational. I'm saying that these *spells* or making something transparent requires context to decide if its fantasy or SF or something else. > Yes, you can point to a > number of books in the fantasy genre which use psionics as the underpinning > of magic. However, in general, such books use psionics as the underpinning > of all magic, i.e. all casters in Katherine Kurtz' book are psionic to some > degree or other ... Mind you, all the characters in a Katherine Kurtz book > are completely fascinated by clothes, and can take 3 pages to describe what > they plan to wear to the next coronation... Indeed. What one wears, one's colours, etc is an integral part of what many consider fantasy -- or atleast psionic pseudo-histrical romance set in a world of magic. True the mental aspects of this series are closest to SF psionics, however the ritual on angelic invocation which preceeds several of the psionic-like effects and other aspects are surely magical ritual. > Your psionic ability is something bred into you, and not something you > can teach to the ungifted. A lot of that series is devoted to the > concept of the inheritance of abilities and basically post-Mendelian > genetics. That isn't fantasy, either On the contrary. A frequent concept in magical romances is that of the True blood-line. Where magic is associated with power, there is almost *always* a concept of blood-lines. > The series is really a kind of fake historical/romance, with a > little science fiction added. I don't want to go on about this, because > it's wandering from the point, as far as I can see, but here, again is my > contention. Your opinion. Many players would see elements that mirror some aspects of DQ (or who would steal some aspects from these books for items/characters in the campaign). This series was merely one example; There are many cases of "mind-clouding" types of magic in other sources. > It is not necessary to have a rationalisation that defines how something > works. It is enough that we know what happens. If a rationalisation makes > that clear, and adds to the flavour, fine. Agreed. However if we return to the original concept of Jacqui's posting; it was to look at various forms of unseen-ness. I think it was a good summary; especially as it might be used to counter the sameness of similar spells and to answer the often asked question of "why is Spell *n* in College Z?" It is not enough that a spell be cool. It should fit the concept or feel of the college. A rational approach by the designers to atleast some aspects of the magic is vilid, if not essential. > If, however, the rationalisation brings in another, out of genre, flavour, > then you have reduced the colour in the world, not added to it. > Another point that I'd like to make is that if the spell has a particular > rationalisation asscociated to it, then an argument can be made along these > lines: Invisibility (Transparency or Light Warping) make the light pass > around or through you. Therefore, if I am invisible in this way, then I > can't be harmed by Solar Flare...The light passes around or through > me....This kind of thing is eminently logical, but do you want to see it in > the game? It is in the game already. Often a GM has to rule how one spell/ item/ magic-effect interacts with another. > I believe it to be better to say that the spell has a particular effect, > and leave the rationalisations alone, really. Agreed. What Jacqui was speaking of was primarily effects: mind-editing as opposed to making the target transparent, as opposed to blending/chameleon-type concealment. > If you have to use one, use > one that's based on the fantastic. The fantastic is less prone to the > tyranny of logic, and cannot be as easily manipulated. > > > It IS inherently science fiction, Michael. It's almost always > associated with genetics, and it deals in terms that are often derived > from modern psychiatry. Not so -- See comments above. > > > > > > > > Sorry why is this "tech"? The concept of light passing through a body > -- > > > > presumably not. > > > > > > Wrong, that is exactly what I mean. The rationalisation that someone is > > > invisible because they are transparent isn't useful to spell design. > > > > Rubbish The word does NOT mean "tech" or even imply it _unless_ *you* > > are reading it in such a context. Was Dante writing "tech" or Science > > Fiction when he described the transparent (sic!!!) form of Cato and the > > souls in Purgatory?? CONTEXT is overriding. Transparent is a word that > > describes an EFFECT -- that effect can be fact (glass), SF (H.G. Wells), > > factoid (Celestial spheres), or fantasy (DQ magic). > > Dante was not writing fantasy, and neither was H.G.Wells. However, you > make a good point. Describing someone as becoming transparent is not tech. > Describing the action of the spell as making you transparent is, I think. This I don't understand? It is an effect. It is a well-established historic word which has a commonly understood meaning? Why is it irreconcilable with any spell. I agree that there have been many spells that have had poor names in the past; but here you are staining at a gnat. Michael Michael Parkinson Assistant Librarian Email: m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz Science Library Phone: (9) 3737 599 x 5858 University of Auckland Fax: (9) 3082 304 -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Nov 16 15:58:54 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id PAA14290; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 15:58:54 +1300 Received: from date.palm.cri.nz (date.palm.cri.nz [161.66.1.20]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id PAA14281 ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 15:58:49 +1300 Received: from mail1.marc.cri.nz (mail1.marc.cri.nz [161.29.1.1]) by date.palm.cri.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA01481 ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 15:47:34 +1300 (NZDT) Received: from hra1.marc.cri.nz (unverified [161.29.1.5]) by mail1.marc.cri.nz (Dr Solomon's SMTPRS 2.0.15) with ESMTP id ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 15:43:12 +1300 Message-Id: Received: from HRA1/SpoolDir by hra1.marc.cri.nz (Mercury 1.31); 16 Nov 98 15:48:24 GMT+12 Received: from SpoolDir by HRA1 (Mercury 1.31); 16 Nov 98 15:48:12 GMT+12 Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 15:48:05 GMT+1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Healer. X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01b) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT From: "Bart Janssen" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Hi > If a limb is removed from an unlucky individual, can a healer reattach the > limb? You already know my opinion, but for general consumption. Of course they can. > In your responses please indicate what categories you option falls > * is supported by the rules, Absolutely nothing in the rules suggests that it should not be possible. Healers can repair an injury, a severance is merely an extreme injury. While it is complicated operation in modern times we are talking about highly skilled healers so the complexity of the process should not be an issue (and who knows exactly how healers do it anyway). The only real question in my mind is preservation of the removed portion until it can be reattached and I personally have no probelm with using preserve dead to preserve a limb. > * is what everyone plays, Apparantly not (which is why the question is being asked of course). I have only ever seen GMs rule that a healer can reattach a limb, apparantly others have ruled to the contrary. Maybe magic worked differently in that county.......or maybe the GMs need to be more consistant. > * is what you think the rules should support. Definately, the repair of a severance is a long slow process anyway. If every severance instead required regeneration then many adventures would end when the limb was severed and that party member and the party healer left to return to the guild. Not a good thing. On adventure healing sucks enough as it is without forcing regenration more often. Of course if Healer skill was altered to give more reasonable healing times and allowed long healing processes to be simply a matter of 1 hour a day treatment then maybe this interpretation would be OK. But frankly I see nothing that anyone could reasonably interpret in the rules suggesting that repair of a severence is not just like any other repair. If GMs really want their parties wandering around with missing limbs then use monsters that swallow the bits they sever or use acid or use light sphere or use their imagination. Sorry for the tone, bit out of sorts today. cheers Bart Saying Windows 95 is equal to Macintosh is like finding a potato that looks like Jesus and believing you've witnessed the second coming. -- Guy Kawasaki Bart Janssen Hort+Research Private Bag 92169 Auckland New Zealand ph 64 9 8154200 x 7279 fax 64 9 8154201 -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Nov 16 15:59:38 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id PAA14304; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 15:59:38 +1300 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (root@tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id PAA14295 ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 15:59:37 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p217-tnt-ak-1.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.111.217]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA24757 ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 15:48:16 +1300 Message-Id: <199811160248.PAA24757@smtp2.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: Reverse engineering concealment magics Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 15:46:33 +1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. ---------- > From: Michael Parkinson > Actually the main point I failed to make explicit (because I ran several > ideas together) is that we are playing a game with many underlying > concepts -- that the rules are fundamentally fair to all participants, at > least initially Not true. You can generate a character with only 86 character points to spend. Someone else can generate a character with 99 points to assign. That is a die roll result. Dice aren't known for their ability to be fair, only impartial. >that "game-balance" gives restrictions on what can be > inflicted on the players; etc. In practice what this means is that spells > must have balance -- ideally within the game-world (in the rare cases when > this is possible) but ABSOLUTELY in comparison to each other, in terms of > cost/benefit to the player. Again, that isn't true. The Mind college has spells and talents with EMs that are much higher than their effects would lead you to believe was warranted...Compare Mental Attack with Sleep, Force Shield with Enchanted Armour. Some of their spells don't have EMs that are high enough, Telepathy, for example. >We ourselves also have the added complexity in > requiring moderate balance between GM rewards and punishments. etc > There is no moderation on punishment that a DM might award, although, why you'd want to punish anyone is a mystery to me. If you thought that someone's behaviour, in character or out of it, was interfering with your enjoyment or the enjoyment of the other players, I imagine you'd just ask the offending player to leave. Why bother with anything else? Or are you talking about something else? Jim. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Nov 16 16:00:49 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id QAA14325; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 16:00:49 +1300 Received: from smtp.worley.co.nz (smtp.worley.co.nz [202.36.210.250]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id QAA14316 ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 16:00:40 +1300 Received: by smtp.worley.co.nz(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.1 (569.2 2-6-1998)) id 4C2566BE.00163292 ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 16:02:27 +1200 X-Lotus-FromDomain: WORLEY CONSULTANTS Message-ID: <4C2566BE.00145414.00@smtp.worley.co.nz> Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 15:46:12 +1200 Subject: Re: Healer. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline From: amtennant@worley.co.nz To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >> All the above seems to be possible via the rules. It could take quite a >> while though. Probably faster than regen. >Nerves are considered vital organs, and they're pretty important to the >functionality of the limb. Repair of nerves is presumably covered by Repair Tissue or flesh or whatever which would have to include it or you wouldn't have any feeling in repaired skin etc... ooh, what a yucky idea. A partially eaten person repaired but with no feeling in the repaired bits. Like a living zombie. Actually, the reminds me. There's a truly aweful medical condition which does just this - no pain sensing. It's really gross for children because they chew their own fingers off because it doesn't hurt and they don't know any better. Blech. Who needs horror when you've got reality? L8R, Adam. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Nov 16 16:19:51 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id QAA14427; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 16:19:51 +1300 Received: from letterbox.cs.auckland.ac.nz (letterbox.cs.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.35.1]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id QAA14416 ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 16:19:48 +1300 Received: from [130.216.108.110] (clare.cs.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.108.110]) by letterbox.cs.auckland.ac.nz (8.8.6/8.8.6/cs-master) with ESMTP id QAA29342 ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 16:08:30 +1300 (sender clare@cs.auckland.ac.nz) X-Sender: clare@staffpop.cs.auckland.ac.nz Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 15:50:14 +0100 Subject: Re:Healer. From: clare@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Clare West) To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >Hi All, > >If a limb is removed from an unlucky individual, can a healer reattach the >limb? No. It is my belief that a) the rules do not allow a way for limbs to be reattached. b) everyone plays that limbs cannot be reattached. I don't really have a strong feeling as to whether the rules should or should not allow this. clare -- Clare West, Rm 107, Ext 8266 clare@cs.auckland.ac.nz -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Nov 16 16:20:25 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id QAA14443; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 16:20:25 +1300 Received: from mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (mailhost.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.1.4]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id QAA14434 ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 16:20:24 +1300 Received: from sci4 (lbr-122-42.lbrsc.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.122.42]) by mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (8.9.1/8.9.1/8.9.1-ua) with SMTP id QAA26097 ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 16:09:06 +1300 (NZDT) Message-Id: <199811160309.QAA26097@mailhost.auckland.ac.nz> Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 16:12:50 +0000 Subject: Re: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) From: "Michael Parkinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-to: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. A few minor clarifications of misunderstandings: > >that "game-balance" gives restrictions on what can be > > inflicted on the players; etc. In practice what this means is that spells > > must have balance -- ideally within the game-world (in the rare cases when > > this is possible) but ABSOLUTELY in comparison to each other, in terms of > > cost/benefit to the player. > > Again, that isn't true. Actually you have agreed that spells *must* have balance (as much as practical). Your examples point out cases where they the spells are imbalanced. > > >We ourselves also have the added complexity in > > requiring moderate balance between GM rewards and punishments. etc > > > There is no moderation on punishment that a DM might award, although, why > you'd want to punish anyone is a mystery to me. I mean, for example, hitting someone with a MA-50 curse that severely disables a *character*. As a GM, I have no qualms about killing a character but there is an overriding "fairness" which requires me to moderate the circumstances because the event is occurring in our multi-GM multi-player game. Michael Parkinson Assistant Librarian Email: m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz Science Library Phone: (9) 3737 599 x 5858 University of Auckland Fax: (9) 3082 304 -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Nov 16 16:26:08 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id QAA14498; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 16:26:08 +1300 Received: from peace.com (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id QAA14489 ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 16:26:04 +1300 Received: via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/pcnz2.7) id QAA24796; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 16:14:40 +1300 Message-ID: <364F9A2B.969644C0@peace.com> Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 16:21:15 +1300 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5b2 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Historical stuff Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. amtennant@worley.co.nz wrote: > > >That's OK. One of the French chroniclers, in order to explain their > >defeat at Crecy, claimed that a ravine had suddenly appeared in front of > >the French Knights and that they had all plummeted into it. > > That's pretty funny. I wonder if it was just a blatant lie or they'd failed > to scout... He was lying. Or possibly just couldn't beleive that the flower of French chivalry had been destroyed by a bunch of yeoman yobbos armed with bows. Another French Historian claimed that the English at Crecy used a wagon laeger (sp?) -- a bunch of wagons pushed or tethered together to form a line -- armed with numerous cannons to defeat the Knights. > It's a bit like a certain bunch of Teutonic knights falling through an ice > flow during a battle. Tannenburg? Another of those cases of knowing your terrain. Or possibly knowing how much a fully laden warhorse weighs -- and how thick the ice is. Cheers, Martin -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Nov 16 16:34:25 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id QAA14542; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 16:34:25 +1300 Received: from peace.com (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id QAA14531 ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 16:34:23 +1300 Received: via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/pcnz2.7) id QAA25121; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 16:23:01 +1300 Message-ID: <364F9C20.8487797E@peace.com> Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 16:29:36 +1300 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5b2 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Healer. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Terry Spencer wrote: > If a limb is removed from an unlucky individual, can a healer reattach the > limb? Personal opinion: Yes. It counts as a Repair. If you can repair Limbs but not Vital Organs (or choose to do so) then I would say that it is re-attached but non-functional until the nerves are fixed. I don't know how long the limb can be off and remain (potentially) useful, but I too would not have a problem with a Healer using Preserve Dead on it to keep it fresh longer. However, on that note I don't particularly want to see Healers being used to keep meat fresh on extended journeys. :) Cheers, Martin -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Nov 16 16:36:30 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id QAA14563; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 16:36:30 +1300 Received: from letterbox.cs.auckland.ac.nz (letterbox.cs.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.35.1]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id QAA14553 ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 16:36:27 +1300 Received: from [130.216.34.178] (andrew-l.cs.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.34.178]) by letterbox.cs.auckland.ac.nz (8.8.6/8.8.6/cs-master) with ESMTP id QAA29501 ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 16:25:09 +1300 (sender andrew-l@cs.auckland.ac.nz) X-Sender: andrew-l@staffpop.cs.auckland.ac.nz Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 16:26:37 +1300 Subject: Healer From: Andrew Luxton To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Terry asked: >If a limb is removed from an unlucky individual, can a healer reattach the >limb? > >In your responses please indicate what categories you option falls >* is supported by the rules, >* is what everyone plays, >* is what you think the rules should support. From Healer: At least one-half of a muscle, bone, or organ to be repaired must remain in the patients body if the healer is to use one of these abilities [repair torn, damaged, or broken muscles, bone, tissues and organs] If a portion of the body has been severed, or there is a hole in a being's anatomy, the GM measures the body part of the player .... will require a number of days to regenerate the characters missing body part ... (i) Seems to me that the rules imply that a Healer is not capable of reattaching a limb. Once the limb is removed from the body, it is no longer part of that person, and a new one must be regrown from the bits still attached to the person. (ii) I don't know what everyone plays... it doesn't come up all that often. I have had GM's rule that the limbs cannot be reattached and must be regrown. I have also seen a GM rule that the limb could be reattached, so both views are obviously out there. (iii) I don't really care either way. If I had to make a choice, I think I would favour limbs not being able to be reattached. Healers are not like surgeons (in spite of the *nasty* reference in the Healer skill to cosmetic surgery - blah). I like to think of Healers as working with the essence of life (as a whole body) and being able to restore that body to its true form. I think that once parts are removed, they are unable to be worked with by a healer as they are no longer part of the entity. Anything to make Healer more mystical and less surgeon-like I am keen on. ------------------------------------------- Andrew Luxton, Computer Science Dept. Ph: +64-09-373-7599 ext 5654 University of Auckland. Fax: +64-09-373-7453 ------------------------------------------- -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Nov 16 17:02:11 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id RAA14621; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 17:02:11 +1300 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (root@tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id RAA14612 ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 17:02:10 +1300 Received: from phaeton.ihug.co.nz (p2-max3.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.97.130]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA02431 ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 16:50:45 +1300 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19981116164646.007be550@pop.ihug.co.nz> X-Sender: phaeton@pop.ihug.co.nz X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 16:46:46 +1300 Subject: Re: Healer. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: Keith Smith To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >If a limb is removed from an unlucky individual, can a healer reattach the >limb? > >In your responses please indicate what categories you option falls >* is supported by the rules, >* is what everyone plays, >* is what you think the rules should support. Not according to the rulebook. As Andrew Luxton pointed out, a healer can regenerate a new body part i.e. a limb, or repair tissue if at least half of that tissue is still present. Since the limb has been removed, including all it's associated tissue, re-attachment fits into neither category. I'm not sure what everyone else plays but I would allow a Healer to try to re-attach the limb but only if the limb has only been removed for more than a few minutes i.e. it hasn't had time to 'die' (aura change from living to formally-living). In this case, tissue regeneration would be required (and I treat nerves as major organs) which implies a Rank 10 Healer would be required to in order to do the job. We're talking a miracle here.... Keith (phaeton@ihug.co.nz) -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Nov 16 17:11:05 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id RAA14678; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 17:11:05 +1300 Received: from peace.com (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id RAA14667 ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 17:11:03 +1300 Received: via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/pcnz2.7) id QAA26687; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 16:59:45 +1300 Message-ID: <364FA4BD.D908D42B@peace.com> Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 17:06:21 +1300 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5b2 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Reverse engineering concealment magics Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Jim Arona wrote: > ---------- > > From: Martin Dickson > > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > > Subject: Re: Reverse engineering concealment magics > > Date: Monday, November 16, 1998 10:55 AM > > > > > > Jim Arona wrote: > > Well, I'm really talking about things that really are viewing screens, like > on the Enterprise. I don't think crystal balls are a problem. [snip] > Possibly so, but I mean glasses...Like sunglasses, shades, visors, > etc...They all have a tech edge. It was after I had sent my response that I read your later post -- where you mentioned to someone that "spectacles" were different from "glasses" and I understood what you had meant. I think we are actually on the same wave-length here. I agree that no matter the early historical appearence of "eye-pieces", the _term_ "glasses" will always seem anachronistic, and "mirrorshades" will never be right. :) > What I'm talking about is the idea of treasure that copies the nature of > technology. Yes. This is what I didn't quite realise at first. I wasn't intending to defend "tech" treasure -- I was pointing out that some of the things you said to avoid might actually be appropriate for DQ's pseudo-historical era. > For example, glasses that let you see at night, a bracelet that > tells you the time, regardless of the means by which they do these things. Well, no and yes. I guess there is a fine line between modern night-vision light-enhancement goggles written up as "fantasy", and a pair of spectacles that let you see when it is dark. Since spectacles were worn to improve vision, having a magical pair improve vision in a magical way is not unreasonable -- though it runs the risk of a tech feel. There is nothing about bracelets per se that has anything to do with the passage of time, and so there is no good reason to have a magic bracelet tell time -- expect when it is a wrist watch written for fantasy. > We are caught, in many ways, by our own apprehensions of 'how things work', > and inevitably we fall into the trap of describing things as 20th Century > observers. An example of this is the Binder's ability to Detect > Enchantment...We have assumed that this is a purely visual sense...But, > why? It could be one that is aural in nature, for instance, or > gustatory/olfactory...Personally, it would make more sense to make it > something that they could smell, and if they were close enough, taste... I think that you are right that the sense could just as well be smell and taste -- personally I think that it could be gooseflesh or the prickling of the hair on the neck, etc. However, there is one or two inferences that suggest sight. Some DQ magical effects (such as Invis) have been described as appearing "blue" if you can see them. This use of a colour suggest that magic effects could be seen with the proper ability. > We let people 'see' in darkness through the use of some items, but why > shouldn't the action be of throwing out, say, a moonbeam, and having the > obscurement of night lifted in that way? That is another way -- but it is just that, another way. On the other hand, would you really want to see a wand that threw out a "moonbeam" on demand? > Yet, again and again, visors, > glasses, and various eyewear are used. I don't see that there is nothing inherently wrong with this -- it is just a bit boring. As I wrote above, there is sufficient... I don't quite know what to call it... connection? sympathy? between spectacles and improved vision to suggest a similar magical connection. It is the same connection as "Seven League Boots" rather than "Seven League Gauntlets", or gauntlets or vambraces that improve your strength rather than a hat. > This is not about breaking the mould, and making items very different, > because I think helms that let you see through darkness are fine. I have also seen a circlet that does this, and have given away a mask with similar properties -- I just don't see that spectacles are wrong too. > When developing treasure, think about what flavour you're creating. If you > think it has a potentially out of genre flavour, then try again. Hardly any > write up is good the first time. > If you have to err, err on the side of ancient, rather than modern...It is > easier to live with a bronze khopesh, than it is to live with a > hip-mounted, gyro-stabilised assault cannon, or even a Swiss army knife. Whilst I agree without reservation that an assault cannon, or Swiss army knife is undesirable, I don't think that being a Luddite is automatically a virtue. If we want a pseudo-Renaissance feel to DQ then yes, it is important that the things we describe are not modern -- but it is also important that we don't create a Dark Ages feeling either. That said, there is nothing wrong with a bronze sword-y thing as an artifact weapon. Cheers, Martin -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Nov 16 17:14:58 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id RAA14709; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 17:14:58 +1300 Received: from date.palm.cri.nz (date.palm.cri.nz [161.66.1.20]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id RAA14698 ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 17:14:39 +1300 Received: from mail1.marc.cri.nz (mail1.marc.cri.nz [161.29.1.1]) by date.palm.cri.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA03687 ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 17:03:24 +1300 (NZDT) Received: from hra1.marc.cri.nz (unverified [161.29.1.5]) by mail1.marc.cri.nz (Dr Solomon's SMTPRS 2.0.15) with ESMTP id ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 16:59:07 +1300 Message-Id: Received: from HRA1/SpoolDir by hra1.marc.cri.nz (Mercury 1.31); 16 Nov 98 17:04:20 GMT+12 Received: from SpoolDir by HRA1 (Mercury 1.31); 16 Nov 98 17:04:00 GMT+12 Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 17:03:51 GMT+1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Healer. X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01b) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT From: "Bart Janssen" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. > Not according to the rulebook. As Andrew Luxton pointed out, a healer can > regenerate a new body part i.e. a limb, or repair tissue if at least half > of that tissue is still present. Since the limb has been removed, including > all it's associated tissue, re-attachment fits into neither category. Hmm looks like the rules do specify you can't. OK I change my assessment to "another stupid rule" > I'm not sure what everyone else plays but I would allow a Healer to try to > re-attach the limb but only if the limb has only been removed for more than > a few minutes i.e. it hasn't had time to 'die' (aura change from living to > formally-living). In this case, tissue regeneration would be required (and > I treat nerves as major organs) which implies a Rank 10 Healer would be > required to in order to do the job. > > We're talking a miracle here.... Umm this is really dumb. Basically every repair you do involves repair of nerves (almost every single tissue in the body is ennervated). If you rule that repair of nerves is a major organ job then any repair is a major organ repair, which I doubt is the intent of the rules (otherwise they wouldn't have differentiated between minor and major repair). As for reattachement of a limb being harder than regeneration of a limb, you've got to be kidding right.....regeneration is just rank 9 but the miracle of reattachment (performed everyday in hospitals around the world) is rank 10!!!!! For me the question is fairly simple, you want healers to heal on adventure right??? if so then you better interpret the rules such that it is possible and worthwhile for the healer, the above interpretation punishes the healer as much as the idiot who got their arm chopped off, not really a good plan. Ambar's new stance on healing "if it takes me longer than 10 minutes sod off and die". cheers Bart Saying Windows 95 is equal to Macintosh is like finding a potato that looks like Jesus and believing you've witnessed the second coming. -- Guy Kawasaki Bart Janssen Hort+Research Private Bag 92169 Auckland New Zealand ph 64 9 8154200 x 7279 fax 64 9 8154201 -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Nov 16 17:17:19 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id RAA14741; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 17:17:19 +1300 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (root@tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id RAA14731 ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 17:17:18 +1300 Received: from phaeton.ihug.co.nz (p2-max3.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.97.130]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA04503 ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 17:06:00 +1300 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19981116170056.007aeb40@pop.ihug.co.nz> X-Sender: phaeton@pop.ihug.co.nz X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 17:00:56 +1300 Subject: Re: Healer. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: Keith Smith To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >I don't know how long the limb can be off and remain (potentially) useful, but >I too would not have a problem with a Healer using Preserve Dead on it to keep >it fresh longer. Not very long I suspect. However, for a limb to be affected by Preserve Dead, it would need to be dead (aura 'formally living'). How then would the Healer get the reattached limb working again? Ressurrection? >However, on that note I don't particularly want to see Healers being used to >keep meat fresh on extended journeys. :) I quite agree - especially at 5FT per preserve. Salt is much cheaper. Keith (phaeton@ihug.co.nz) -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Nov 16 17:19:03 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id RAA14768; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 17:19:03 +1300 Received: from smtp.worley.co.nz (smtp.worley.co.nz [202.36.210.250]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id RAA14758 ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 17:19:01 +1300 Received: by smtp.worley.co.nz(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.1 (569.2 2-6-1998)) id 4C2566BE.001D5BE4 ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 17:20:40 +1200 X-Lotus-FromDomain: WORLEY CONSULTANTS Message-ID: <4C2566BE.001BF423.00@smtp.worley.co.nz> Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 17:07:47 +1200 Subject: Re: Historical stuff Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline From: amtennant@worley.co.nz To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >> That's pretty funny. I wonder if it was just a blatant lie or they'd failed >> to scout... >He was lying. Or possibly just couldn't beleive that the flower of French >chivalry had been destroyed by a bunch of yeoman yobbos armed with bows. >Another French Historian claimed that the English at Crecy used a wagon laeger >(sp?) -- a bunch of wagons pushed or tethered together to form a line -- armed >with numerous cannons to defeat the Knights. Oh yes, and the English were well know for their use of Hussite allies. Not. >> It's a bit like a certain bunch of Teutonic knights falling through an ice >> flow during a battle. >Tannenburg? Well spotted that history buff. :) >Another of those cases of knowing your terrain. Or possibly >knowing how much a fully laden warhorse weighs -- and how thick the ice is. Indeed. Tsun Zu had some very sane and reasonable ideas about "fatal terrain". L8R, Adam. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Nov 16 17:23:48 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id RAA14815; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 17:23:48 +1300 Received: from smtp.worley.co.nz (smtp.worley.co.nz [202.36.210.250]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id RAA14803 ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 17:23:46 +1300 Received: by smtp.worley.co.nz(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.1 (569.2 2-6-1998)) id 4C2566BE.001DC786 ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 17:25:16 +1200 X-Lotus-FromDomain: WORLEY CONSULTANTS Message-ID: <4C2566BE.001C5F2E.00@smtp.worley.co.nz> Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 17:12:22 +1200 Subject: Re: Reverse engineering concealment magics Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline From: amtennant@worley.co.nz To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >> If you have to err, err on the side of ancient, rather than modern...It is >> easier to live with a bronze khopesh, than it is to live with a >> hip-mounted, gyro-stabilised assault cannon, or even a Swiss army knife. >> Jim. >In your opinion. I however find the odd anachronistic item fun. I'm sure >others differ in both directions. Arguements based around the concept >of which flavour is "correct" are simply expressions of opinion. Indeed. I myself am comletely the other way and really hate any tech related stuff in fantasy games. I feel the same way about most literature as well, but that is my ( extreme ) opinion. No offence to Parky, but I went on an adventure of his one time which I didn't realise was going to be basically Space 1889 and really hated it for just that reason. L8R, Adam "Pure Fantasy" Tennant. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Nov 16 17:25:19 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id RAA14839; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 17:25:19 +1300 Received: from mail.iconz.co.nz (mail.iconz.co.nz [202.14.100.36]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id RAA14827 ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 17:25:16 +1300 Received: from mandos (e0.firewall.ak.iconz.net.nz [202.14.100.208]) by mail.iconz.co.nz (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA075120911189621 ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 17:13:41 +1300 (NZDT) Message-ID: <012e01be1117$603d4260$1564a8c0@mandos.ICONZ> Subject: Re: Healer. Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 17:12:45 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 From: "Mandos Mitchinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >If a limb is removed from an unlucky individual, can a healer reattach the >limb? >In your responses please indicate what categories you option falls >* is supported by the rules, >* is what everyone plays, >* is what you think the rules should support. I would say the rules cover it at Rk 7 when you can fix tissue, bones and the other bits and pieces. Mandos /s -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Nov 16 17:28:34 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id RAA14877; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 17:28:34 +1300 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (root@tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id RAA14867 ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 17:28:33 +1300 Received: from phaeton.ihug.co.nz (p2-max3.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.97.130]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA05725 ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 17:17:11 +1300 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19981116171313.007af5b0@pop.ihug.co.nz> X-Sender: phaeton@pop.ihug.co.nz X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 17:13:13 +1300 Subject: Re: Healer. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: Keith Smith To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >Umm this is really dumb. Basically every repair you do involves repair >of nerves (almost every single tissue in the body is ennervated). If you >rule that repair of nerves is a major organ job then any repair is a major >organ repair, which I doubt is the intent of the rules (otherwise they >wouldn't have differentiated between minor and major repair). Whoops! You're quite right. Nerve fibres should be treated as tissue which allows a Rank 7 Healer to do the job. The spinal cord on the other hand may be a more difficult job. >As for reattachement of a limb being harder than regeneration of a limb, >you've got to be kidding right.....regeneration is just rank 9 but the >miracle of reattachment (performed everyday in hospitals around the >world) is rank 10!!!!! Agreed. >For me the question is fairly simple, you want healers to heal on >adventure right??? if so then you better interpret the rules such that it is >possible and worthwhile for the healer, the above interpretation punishes >the healer as much as the idiot who got their arm chopped off, not really >a good plan. Correct. I think when my mind saw 'brain' under Rank 10, I started thinking of neural tissue in general. My apologies. >Ambar's new stance on healing "if it takes me longer than 10 minutes >sod off and die". So they can be ressurrected later? I hate to say this, but in some cases, it's actually faster in time, and cheaper in fatigue, to do this - not that Phaeton would even consider such a course of action. Keith (phaeton@ihug.co.nz) -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Nov 16 17:37:27 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id RAA14932; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 17:37:27 +1300 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (root@tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id RAA14922 ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 17:37:25 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p217-tnt-ak-1.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.111.217]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA03305 ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 17:26:00 +1300 Message-Id: <199811160426.RAA03305@smtp2.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: Reverse engineering concealment magics Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 15:47:18 +1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. ---------- > From: Bart Janssen > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Subject: Re: Reverse engineering concealment magics > Date: Tuesday, November 17, 1998 4:31 AM > > > snip > > > If you have to err, err on the side of ancient, rather than modern...It is > > easier to live with a bronze khopesh, than it is to live with a > > hip-mounted, gyro-stabilised assault cannon, or even a Swiss army knife. > > Jim. > > In your opinion. I however find the odd anachronistic item fun. I'm sure > others differ in both directions. Arguements based around the concept > of which flavour is "correct" are simply expressions of opinion. Naturally > since you are the best DM around your opinion carries much more > importance. Correct, Bart. Jim. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Nov 16 17:39:00 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id RAA14953; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 17:39:00 +1300 Received: from mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (mailhost.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.1.4]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id RAA14942 ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 17:38:58 +1300 Received: from sci4 (lbr-122-42.lbrsc.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.122.42]) by mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (8.9.1/8.9.1/8.9.1-ua) with SMTP id RAA05483 ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 17:27:38 +1300 (NZDT) Message-Id: <199811160427.RAA05483@mailhost.auckland.ac.nz> Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 17:31:21 +0000 Subject: Re: Genre X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) From: "Michael Parkinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-to: m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Dear Adam (especially) > > Indeed. I myself am comletely the other way and really hate any tech > related stuff in fantasy games. I feel the same way about most > literature as well, but that is my ( extreme ) opinion. > > No offence to Parky, but I went on an adventure of his one time which I > didn't realise was going to be basically Space 1889 and really hated it > for just that reason. My apologies; afterwards it was clear to me I *should* have warned participants. It was because of that cock-up that I prefer to risk advising the *players* of too much, rather than repeat such a blunder. Once again, sorry Adam (and anyone else who was disappointed). regards, Michael Michael Parkinson Assistant Librarian Email: m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz Science Library Phone: (9) 3737 599 x 5858 University of Auckland Fax: (9) 3082 304 -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Nov 16 17:56:12 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id RAA15017; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 17:56:12 +1300 Received: from mail.iconz.co.nz (mail.iconz.co.nz [202.14.100.36]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id RAA15008 ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 17:56:11 +1300 Received: from mandos (e0.firewall.ak.iconz.net.nz [202.14.100.208]) by mail.iconz.co.nz (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA164150911191484 ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 17:44:44 +1300 (NZDT) Message-ID: <016701be111b$b48d4960$1564a8c0@mandos.ICONZ> Subject: Re: Genre Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 17:43:49 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 From: "Mandos Mitchinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >Dear Adam (especially) >> >> Indeed. I myself am comletely the other way and really hate any tech >> related stuff in fantasy games. I feel the same way about most >> literature as well, but that is my ( extreme ) opinion. >> >> No offence to Parky, but I went on an adventure of his one time which I >> didn't realise was going to be basically Space 1889 and really hated it >> for just that reason. > >My apologies; afterwards it was clear to me I *should* have warned >participants. It was because of that cock-up that I prefer to risk >advising the *players* of too much, rather than repeat such a >blunder. I myself have no problem with a GM running a "higher tech than allusia" adventure, but unfortunatly the tendancy for GM's that run them to allow the retern of tech style items is disturbing. The tech of allusia should remain as it is. I dislike tech flavoured items in the game as they disrupt the feel of the adventure that you are running. I currently play with my own characters that tech knowledge fades quickly into the half-remembered dream-like state while tech items get lost or broken along the way. That is just a personal feeling. Mandos /s -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Nov 16 18:02:15 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id SAA15056; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 18:02:15 +1300 Received: from peace.com (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id SAA15046 ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 18:02:13 +1300 Received: via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/pcnz2.7) id RAA29073; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 17:50:55 +1300 Orig-Sender: Michael.Woodhams@peace.com Message-ID: <364FAF2F.81F6E9D5@peace.co.nz> Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 17:50:55 +1300 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05C-SGI [en] (X11; I; IRIX 6.5 IP32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Healer. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Michael Woodhams To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: Michael.Woodhams@peace.com X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. > > > > I'm not sure what everyone else plays but I would allow a Healer to try to > > re-attach the limb but only if the limb has only been removed for more than > > a few minutes i.e. it hasn't had time to 'die' (aura change from living to > > formally-living). In this case, tissue regeneration would be required (and > > I treat nerves as major organs) which implies a Rank 10 Healer would be > > required to in order to do the job. "nerves"? What are they? Almost invisible strings along which the will travels to control the limbs, you say? Preposterous! The soul is present throughout the aura and directly transmits its will to the limbs, without any need for your strings. If a limb is severed, as soon as the gap becomes larger than the extend of the aura (about a thumb's length) then the living aura departs the severed limb (as the soul is indevisible). Once this occurs, the soul will not return to the limb, and so reattachment is beyond the abilities of healers. (Or if it were reattached, the soul could not control it.) Michael W. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Nov 16 18:02:25 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id SAA15069; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 18:02:25 +1300 Received: from bo.nznet.gen.nz (nznet.gen.nz [203.98.34.1]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id SAA15060 ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 18:02:24 +1300 Received: from takitimu.co.nz (max2-ak00.nznet.gen.nz [203.98.35.65]) by bo.nznet.gen.nz (8.8.7/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA24869 ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 18:04:40 +1300 Received: from takitimu.co.nz by takitimu.co.nz; Mon, 16 Nov 98 17:49:54 +1300 Message-ID: <364FAF3D.DE8E1AF0@takitimu.co.nz> Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 17:51:53 +1300 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Historical stuff Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Kelsie To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: kelsie@takitimu.co.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. > >> It's a bit like a certain bunch of Teutonic knights falling through an > ice > >> flow during a battle. > > >Tannenburg? > > Well spotted that history buff. Also the Neva as in Aleksander Nevsky -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Nov 16 18:07:43 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id SAA15135; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 18:07:43 +1300 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (root@tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id SAA15126 ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 18:07:42 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p217-tnt-ak-1.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.111.217]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA06651 ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 17:56:23 +1300 Message-Id: <199811160456.RAA06651@smtp2.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 17:54:43 +1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. ---------- > From: Michael Parkinson > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Subject: Re: > Date: Tuesday, November 17, 1998 5:12 AM > > > A few minor clarifications of misunderstandings: > > > >that "game-balance" gives restrictions on what can be > > > inflicted on the players; etc. In practice what this means is that spells > > > must have balance -- ideally within the game-world (in the rare cases when > > > this is possible) but ABSOLUTELY in comparison to each other, in terms of > > > cost/benefit to the player. > > > > Again, that isn't true. > > Actually you have agreed that spells *must* have balance (as much as > practical). Your examples point out cases where they the spells are > imbalanced. Your point being? > > > > I mean, for example, hitting someone with a MA-50 curse that severely > disables a *character*. As a GM, I have no qualms about killing a > character but there is an overriding "fairness" which requires me to > moderate the circumstances because the event is occurring in our multi-GM > multi-player game. > Surely, that would depend on the MA of the caster, along with whatever other modifications you might have assigned at the time. Why is this 'punishment'? Did you aim at a particular player? Should they not have received the curse, but were irritating? There are plenty of ways of hurting a player's character, when you DM. There is no way of moderating the DM in this way. If, for example, you decide that an entity with Major Curse will have an MA of 50, either naturally, or because of some items they possess, then you must know that the curse will be nearly impossible to lift. If that is what you decided to do, then there is no way to have your DM moderated by an outside source. What would they do, rule that it didn't happen? The responsibility you have is the same responsibility you have always had, to create an enjoyable and fair gaming environment. The Guild structure just means that you have less manouevrability, because you may be working with an understanding of the rules that other DMs may not be party to. Jim. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Nov 16 18:07:30 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id SAA15122; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 18:07:30 +1300 Received: from mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (mailhost.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.1.4]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id SAA15111 ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 18:07:23 +1300 Received: from sci4 (lbr-122-42.lbrsc.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.122.42]) by mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (8.9.1/8.9.1/8.9.1-ua) with SMTP id RAA07992 ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 17:56:05 +1300 (NZDT) Message-Id: <199811160456.RAA07992@mailhost.auckland.ac.nz> Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 17:59:49 +0000 Subject: Manatech, technology, etc X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) From: "Michael Parkinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-to: m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Dear all, > Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 17:06:21 +1300 > From: Martin Dickson > > Whilst I agree without reservation that an assault cannon, or Swiss army knife > is undesirable, I don't think that being a Luddite is automatically a virtue. > If we want a pseudo-Renaissance feel to DQ then yes, it is important that the > things we describe are not modern -- but it is also important that we don't > create a Dark Ages feeling either. Absolutely. Its great that artisans are creating such modern marvels as Nuremburg Eggs -- but no sensible person is going to rely on their egg to tell them how much longer their Flying spell is going to last if there's a better way [e.g. DA]. This is an acceptible use of technology. Likewise expensive seige-engines, windmills or water-wheel powered devices (in moderation) especially since they are blatantly non-portable and more-often than not merely duplicate, at great expense & effort, what several guildmembers may perform quickly, by magic. Although, perhaps, mechanical "backfires" can be more entertaining. Furthermore such devices are less likely to intrude on the atmosphere of the game -- Indeed the best items of "manatech" are those that mimic what feels natural to human action, or the extant pre-renaissance technology. A time-telling bracelet ruins the atmosphere for other players; but an astrolabe that moves by itself, or a sundial that works at night -- those are obviously things of wonder. Michael Michael Parkinson Assistant Librarian Email: m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz Science Library Phone: (9) 3737 599 x 5858 University of Auckland Fax: (9) 3082 304 -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Nov 16 22:27:18 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id WAA15573; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 22:27:18 +1300 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (root@tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id WAA15563 ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 22:27:17 +1300 Received: from [206.18.106.240] (p48-max40.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.106.240]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA08321 ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 22:15:56 +1300 Message-Id: <199811160915.WAA08321@smtp2.ihug.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 22:17:11 +1300 Subject: Re: Healer. From: flamis@pop.ihug.co.nz (Jacqui Smith) To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >Nerves are considered vital organs, and they're pretty important to the >functionality of the limb. I hate to correct you, but I distinctly recall teaching my 5th Form Human Biology classes that nerves are a tissue, that is a collection of similar cells. But then, "Repair Tissues and Organs" requires the same rank of healer, so does it matter? Jacqui -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Nov 16 22:26:58 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id WAA15552; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 22:26:58 +1300 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (root@tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id WAA15542 ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 22:26:57 +1300 Received: from [206.18.106.240] (p48-max40.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.106.240]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA08298 ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 22:15:36 +1300 Message-Id: <199811160915.WAA08298@smtp2.ihug.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 22:16:50 +1300 Subject: Re: Reverse engineering concealment magics From: flamis@pop.ihug.co.nz (Jacqui Smith) To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >> Why? Spell that affect a victim (or victims) and not the environment have >> normal Magic Resistance saving throws. Why should this spell be different, >> irrelevant of it's mind-numbing nature. Is the spell harder to resist, >> somehow? If so, why? > >There are spells out there which measure against the victim's stats: e.g., >strength checks to break out because the effect of the magic is acting >against the victim's strength. Of course ALL mind-magic somewhat >considers the WP of the victim(s). The point is NOT that the spell is >harder to resist, the point is that it is, perhaps, a direct attack on >the willpower of the victim. It makes reasonable sense. > >> In another vein, this spell makes WP a critically important stat (again). > >So? If you think WP is too powerful, seek "abuses" elsewhere e.g. the WP >restriction on Whitefire and Incineration. > >> And, as written, may even not allow the bonus of an Enchantment. > >?? > >> That makes the spell much tougher than it is already. > >Acknowledged -- & therefore requires due consideration, and possibly (??) >tweaking in other aspects. Er... It wasn't my intent to make the spell thougher, but merely approximate the current 1xPC check using a more appropriate stat. I thought about using MR, but since your bog-standard peasant (or town has around 20 more MR than PC (due simply to the non-mage bonus), it seemed to weaken it too much. Jacqui -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Nov 16 22:28:10 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id WAA15600; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 22:28:10 +1300 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (root@tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id WAA15589 ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 22:28:08 +1300 Received: from [206.18.106.240] (p48-max40.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.106.240]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA08429 ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 22:16:42 +1300 Message-Id: <199811160916.WAA08429@smtp2.ihug.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 22:17:57 +1300 Subject: Re: Reverse engineering concealment magics From: flamis@pop.ihug.co.nz (Jacqui Smith) To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >> For example, glasses that let you see at night, a bracelet that >> tells you the time, regardless of the means by which they do these things. > >Well, no and yes. I guess there is a fine line between modern night-vision >light-enhancement goggles written up as "fantasy", and a pair of spectacles >that let you see when it is dark. Since spectacles were worn to improve >vision, having a magical pair improve vision in a magical way is not >unreasonable -- though it runs the risk of a tech feel. There is nothing about >bracelets per se that has anything to do with the passage of time, and so there >is no good reason to have a magic bracelet tell time -- expect when it is a >wrist watch written for fantasy. I think you have to ask why we took to wearing timepieces on our wrists - the obvious answer is that it's the convenient and practical place to put such things. The art of ergonomics may have only been codified in the twentieth century, but good design is as old as the Stone Age, and there seems no reason to assume that Alusia's Shaper-mages are poor designers. Much the reverse, in fact. Using magic to create a device doesn't stop it being practical and well-designed. As an aside, I'd expect to see a lot more simple practical items in the campaign than we do, especially at low levels. I refer to items which a Shaper would make just to make life in a lonely tower easier, as opposed to items designed for adventurers to bash monsters with. Things like the "Comb of Disentanglement" - which simply untangles knots in hair... >> Yet, again and again, visors, >> glasses, and various eyewear are used. > >I don't see that there is nothing inherently wrong with this -- it is just a >bit boring. As I wrote above, there is sufficient... I don't quite know what >to call it... connection? sympathy? between spectacles and improved vision to >suggest a similar magical connection. It is the same connection as "Seven >League Boots" rather than "Seven League Gauntlets", or gauntlets or vambraces >that improve your strength rather than a hat. That is the Law of Signatures i.e. "The attributes without reveal the powers within" as quoted in several fantasy texts that try to explain magic. There is also the Law of Sympathy "Like produces like" and the Law of Contagion "Once together, always together". (Keith) I must admit that there is a tendency for the type of item to reflect its function, generally for purely practical, as well as magical reasons. >> This is not about breaking the mould, and making items very different, >> because I think helms that let you see through darkness are fine. > >I have also seen a circlet that does this, and have given away a mask with >similar properties -- I just don't see that spectacles are wrong too. I have been guilty of devising a "Visor". This was "Vila's Visor of Night Vision". I described it as "a semi-circular black visor, composed primarily of obsidian, rendered strong as steel". Now, I have to admit that that particular item originated in a failure to resist the alliteration. The description followed on from that... (Jacqui) Jacqui -- See message headers to unsubscribe from --