From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Nov 19 10:34:04 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id KAA21900; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 10:34:04 +1300 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (root@tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id KAA21891 ; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 10:34:03 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p52-max17.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.101.52]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA02348 ; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 10:22:14 +1300 Message-Id: <199811182122.KAA02348@smtp2.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: Healer Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 10:20:11 +1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. ---------- > From: Bart Janssen Jim wrote: > > If someone rewrote the skill, changing no rule at all, merely saying that > > Healer's treat the soul or some other ethereal part of the patient, and got > > rid of the part about the different types of innards they can affect, how > > would that be extreme? > > Because it would force me to roleplay my character in a particular way, > I find that method of DMing revolting. Ambar is a rennaisance healer > who understands intimately exactly what he does. Ambar has trained > as a surgeon to that end specifically. There are several other healers > with just that view of healing. You seem to feel that is "out of genre" > and should be deleted from the game without regard for what others feel. You can still roleplay that he understands the, in the case of this suggestion, weird mystical forces of life itself. There's just no particular reason for the player to know how it actually works, in much the same way that no-one really knows how Telepathy works. You, Bart that is, don't know how magic works. No-one does, really. Ambar may be perfectly articulate and well-read on the subject. It is still possible for to play him as if he knew what he was doing. That is what roleplaying is about. Knowing how Healing works doesn't force you to play it any particular way. Neither does not knowing. Knowing how the rules work, and how they are applied means that you can make the most use of the skill, however, and that will clearly have an impact on the way your character works. At least with regard to Healing, anyway. > > Defining genre narrows roleplaying options, it should be approached with > utmost caution. You seem confident that you can define genre for us all > without harming the game, I think you are wrong. At the moment, there is no integrated genre within the Guild. This is true of the game in general, witness the Mind college. It is a hodge podge of different ideas and lacks a cohesiveness of flavour. Yes, we could try and build a genre out of the pile of broken game architecture that we have at the moment, but there are some parts of it that really don't work. Tech references, for example, even if they only appear in the names of spells, attack a standard fantasy genre. To make a silk purse out of a sow's ear of this game, leaving everything untouched, would be a massive undertaking. I, personally doubt it would ever be accepted. > > > > Are you suggestion colour and flavour are not part of content? Surely > not after what I've seen you post over the last two weeks demanding > that flavour was critical to the game and now arguing that changing > colour is of no consequence to any existing drafts??? Are you being > deliberately hypocritical? No. I believe colour to be important. I believe it to be very, very, important. I don't believe it is an issue of balance. Balance is a term we use to describe the equivalence of power, usually, measured against other factors like the level of toughness of the character, what pressures it exerts on players and NPCs. It is a term connected to the economics of power within the system. For example, one would not usually say that an elf with fiery red hair was an unbalanced character, on the grounds that their hair was fiery red. You might say that elves don't have hair of that colour, and therefore it isn't in genre. More explanation may be required, or maybe it should just be disallowed. > > > Even if it were about content, the existence of someone who is doing work > > on something does not rule discussion out. Regardless of what they might be > > writing. > > Except that if Andrew W wants to contribute he might be smarter to > look at the existing drafts (there's that difficult word again) otherwise he > might being doing work that had already been done. This must be a > really difficult concept for you. *sigh* No. It is merely that if Andrew should choose to write one up, then we might see something interesting. If he has accidentally wasted his time because someone else has already written the same thing, then that says something interesting and worthwhile on its own. Whatever else is happening, if he offers to write something, then I don't see a problem. I enjoy reading his contributions. He thinks differently to me. > > > Make rules and structure then let the players decide how they want to > roleplay. Oh I forgot Jim thinks that he is gods gift to roleplaying and > can tell us all how to do it better .......hah! > > > Well, yes, Bart. On the grounds that I haven't seen anything on the issue > > from Andrew, it will be almost impossible to come to any compromise. You > > cannot form a compromise based on something that doesn't exist. > > But he did propose a "kind of change" and mooted that there was > general agreement. I posted to make sure that he knew that agreement > had not been reached and to let him know that a previous draft existed > that he might look at before starting what is probably a painful task. Try > looking back at my post, you responded with your usual drivel > apparantly with purpose of indicating that you'll disagree with me > regardless of what i say (read your reply). Actually, Bart, here is his post again. Andrew Withy wrote: > If people agree with Andrew L & Michael Y, perhaps we should change > Healer such that: > 1) Cosmetic surgery is removed or reworded > 2) Healer is actually easy to read & find things! > 3) The mystical flavour is emphasised - so that people won't talk about > nerves, transplants, reattachment, cosmetic surgery, and worst of all, > CPR. > 4) Currently undefined abilities like stopping bleeding are covered > briefly. > > At the same time, healer being more adventurer orientated - less > (50-3xRank hours) abilities? > > As an aside, this might leave room for a skill like > surgeon/alchemist/herbalist/barber with knives, poltices and powders, > for really brave adventurers & many "real" people. > > I don't volunteer for this, though I can produce a "pared-down" version > with less verbiage as a start... As far as I can see, what he is saying here is that if some of us feel that a change of the rationale from the medical to the mystic is a good thing, and they agree they would like to see the cosmetic surgery ability removed, then perhaps there ought to be a reworking along the lines he listed. He doesn't moot general agreement on this. He declares that he will not write the document up, although he does offer to provide a summary abstract of the skill. > > > You Jim are the most revolting piece of trash I've ever had the misfortune > to interact with. I presume you are the product of child abuse and this > persona you manefest is the best your counselors could achieve. Say this was the case.Bart...How do you feel, having made that point? How would your friends feel if they witnessed it? > It is sad and pathetic that you can find no other way to interact with > humanity than abuse and conflict. I guess pity is the only reasonable > response, but I never claimed to be reasonable. And have proved yourself right. Jim. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Nov 19 11:25:29 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id LAA21979; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 11:25:29 +1300 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (root@tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id LAA21970 ; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 11:25:28 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p52-max17.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.101.52]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA10077 ; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 11:13:43 +1300 Message-Id: <199811182213.LAA10077@smtp2.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: Healer Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 11:11:47 +1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. ---------- > From: Andrew Withy (FAL AKL) > > I suggest that you get someone else to cure the internal bleeding that > it causes, otherwise you'll get awfully tired. > Remind me to rank Healer before adventuring with Rowan again. :) Well, we can always use more Healers...And as for healing internal bleeding...That's a cross I'll just have to bear. Mind you, I think you're wandering pretty close to impiety, there...As an act of contrition, disembowel yourself three times before meals... Rowan Velcanthus, Hand of Chantris' Mercy, Chalice of Compassion. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Nov 19 11:27:42 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id LAA22010; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 11:27:42 +1300 Received: from peace.com (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id LAA22001 ; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 11:27:41 +1300 Received: via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/pcnz2.7) id LAA08502; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 11:15:56 +1300 Message-ID: <365348B2.F111EDAC@peace.com> Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 11:22:42 +1300 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5b2 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Namer revision. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. I have been working on a Namer revision for some time and reached an impasse a while ago. Jim's comment about the Mind College, that it "is a hodge podge of different ideas and lacks a cohesiveness of flavour", can equally be said of Namer, and despite their minimal number of abilities the College manages to cover at least 3 different ideas with no useful binding force. Last night after discussing Healer (and other things) with Kelsie and Clare, I got thinking about something Andrew Luxton said about Healer. Andrew Luxton wrote: > I like to think of Healers as working with the essence of life (as a whole > body) and being able to restore that body to its true form. And it suddenly struck me that what Namers do (or at least currently mostly do) is deal in Truth and the True Forms and Natures of things. This ties two areas of Namer together and suggests a unified direction and possibilities. OK... before I start e-babbling too much... here is the idea: All magic is deception. No matter the magical rationale i.e.. _how_ it works, the effect is the same. Magic uses power to shape the world to the caster's will. In DQ that power is "mana" and the personal energy of the caster to handle and control that power. If someone is "cursed" into being a toad; their "true form and nature" is still human... in a similar way if an Earth mage "creates" a wall of stone, the reality is that there is no wall... it is a temporary imposition on reality of the caster's will. So... Divinatory magics reveal the true nature and form of things (Divination, DA), Dispelling magics remove magical "deception" (Dissipation, Counterspell)... Counterspells can also protect against the distorting effects of magic... Generic True names hold something of the essential nature of the subject; Individual True names are the sum of the whole of the individual. This suggests the following directions for Namer: Truth finding/revealing/telling abilities; magic removal abilities; forcing things to assume their true form; abilities that prevent magical coercion/control/deception. [As an aside, in line with Andrew's comment above, it may suggest why so many Namers have an interest in Healing -- both are concerned with restoring truth]. Contraindicated directions include actual manipulation of magic -- that is the domain of E&Es and other wizards. A Namer confronted by a non magical foe armed with a club will have nothing in their magical arsenal to help... again, good reasons why so many Namers are serious fighters. Right... all of that said... before I go off an slave over a hot word processor in this direction... fire away! (Both bouquets and brickbats accepted). :) Cheers, Martin -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Nov 19 11:28:03 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id LAA22035; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 11:28:03 +1300 Received: from mail.iconz.co.nz (mail.iconz.co.nz [202.14.100.36]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id LAA22025 ; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 11:28:02 +1300 Received: from mandos (e0.firewall.ak.iconz.net.nz [202.14.100.208]) by mail.iconz.co.nz (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA109820911427373 ; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 11:16:13 +1300 (NZDT) Message-ID: <002f01be1340$dc9a7fa0$1564a8c0@mandos.ICONZ> Subject: Childish Behaviour? Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 11:14:50 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 From: "Mandos Mitchinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >You Jim are the most revolting piece of trash I've ever had the misfortune >to interact with. I presume you are the product of child abuse and this >persona you manefest is the best your counselors could achieve. It is >sad and pathetic that you can find no other way to interact with >humanity than abuse and conflict. I guess pity is the only reasonable >response, but I never claimed to be reasonable. Is it time for a new list dq.bash.other.players.in.a.childish.fashion@dq.sf.org.nz ? We can pop Bart and Jim in there until they cool down. On the other hand we could all just try and be more reasonable and think more before we write. Mandos -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Nov 19 11:35:54 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id LAA22096; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 11:35:54 +1300 Received: from mail.iconz.co.nz (mail.iconz.co.nz [202.14.100.36]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id LAA22085 ; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 11:35:53 +1300 Received: from mandos (e0.firewall.ak.iconz.net.nz [202.14.100.208]) by mail.iconz.co.nz (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA130810911427848 ; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 11:24:08 +1300 (NZDT) Message-ID: <004401be1341$f7a76fa0$1564a8c0@mandos.ICONZ> Subject: Re: Healer Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 11:22:45 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0041_01BE13AE.EE2CC020" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 From: "Mandos Mitchinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0041_01BE13AE.EE2CC020 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >If the healing can be split up and is not continuous, nor require the = constant attention of a/the Healer then many of >the preceived problems = go away or are at least deminished. I have never found the long times = involved to be that >much of a problem. As the GM you get to decide how = much of a problem the injury is. If the patient is conscious >then they = get to contribute even in if a reduced fashion. Death or unconsciousness = can get pretty boring, but its up >to the GM AND THE OTHER PLAYERS TO = MINIMIZE THE REAL TIME it takes to bring the injured/dead character = >back into the game, even if in a reduced capacity. But I agree there = needs to be a balance between the dramatic >and the practical. If this = aspect of Healer is addressed then a major rewrite is not required. I = think a workshop could >do this in an afternoon.=20 =20 I agree wholeheartedly. Healer is a fine skill and I agree with Mike that most of the issues = being raised with it are easily within the scope of the GM and players = in the game to fix. The times as they are work fine. Either it is a = non-time based mission in which case it can be glossed over or it is an = integral part of the timing in which case there is worry and conflict = and tension that is fun to roleplay. Lets leave some of these rules to = the GM concerned. Although tidying the skill is a good idea :-) Mandos /s ------=_NextPart_000_0041_01BE13AE.EE2CC020 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>If the healing can be split up and is not continuous, nor = require the=20 constant attention of a/the Healer then many of >the preceived = problems go=20 away or are at least deminished. I have never found the long times = involved to=20 be that >much of a problem. As the GM you get to decide how much of a = problem=20 the injury is. If the patient is conscious >then they get to = contribute even=20 in if a reduced fashion. Death or unconsciousness can get pretty boring, = but its=20 up >to the GM AND THE OTHER PLAYERS TO MINIMIZE THE REAL TIME it = takes to=20 bring the injured/dead character >back into the game, even if in a = reduced=20 capacity. But I agree there needs to be a balance between the dramatic = >and=20 the practical. If this aspect of Healer is addressed then a major = rewrite is not=20 required. I think a workshop could >do this in an afternoon. =
 
I=20 agree wholeheartedly. Healer is a fine skill <excluding the fact that = I would=20 personaly like to see it depowered heaps which ain't gonna happen this=20 lifetime> and I agree with Mike that most of the issues being raised = with it=20 are easily within the scope of the GM and players in the game to fix. = The times=20 as they are work fine. Either it is a non-time based mission in which = case it=20 can be glossed over or it is an integral part of the timing in which = case there=20 is worry and conflict and tension that is fun to roleplay. Lets leave = some of=20 these rules to the GM concerned. Although tidying the skill is a good = idea=20 :-)
 
Mandos
/s
------=_NextPart_000_0041_01BE13AE.EE2CC020-- -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Nov 19 11:41:35 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id LAA22133; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 11:41:35 +1300 Received: from peace.com (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id LAA22123 ; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 11:41:34 +1300 Received: via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/pcnz2.7) id LAA09160; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 11:29:49 +1300 Orig-Sender: Michael.Woodhams@peace.com Message-ID: <36534A5C.EC97C21@peace.co.nz> Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 11:29:49 +1300 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05C-SGI [en] (X11; I; IRIX 6.5 IP32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Namer revision. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Michael Woodhams To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: Michael.Woodhams@peace.com X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Martin Dickson wrote: > This suggests the following directions for Namer: Truth > finding/revealing/telling abilities; magic removal abilities; forcing things to > assume their true form; abilities that prevent magical > coercion/control/deception. > > > > Contraindicated directions include actual manipulation of magic -- that is the > domain of E&Es and other wizards. A Namer confronted by a non magical foe > armed with a club will have nothing in their magical arsenal to help... again, > good reasons why so many Namers are serious fighters. > Looks good to me. It means that Namers will lose Compell Obedience - no objections to this from me, but I imagine some other people will be upset. Do you envision a 'detect lie' spell? Do we want such a spell in the game? I suggest the next stage be a very rough writeup of what you envisage the rewritten college as looking like (e.g. "Detect lie spell - self only, lasts tens of minutes, at any time in duration of spell, adept can concentrate on an entity and know if they are lying") -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Nov 19 11:49:19 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id LAA22166; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 11:49:19 +1300 Received: from mail.iconz.co.nz (mail.iconz.co.nz [202.14.100.36]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id LAA22155 ; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 11:49:18 +1300 Received: from mandos (e0.firewall.ak.iconz.net.nz [202.14.100.208]) by mail.iconz.co.nz (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA169850911428652 ; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 11:37:32 +1300 (NZDT) Message-ID: <007701be1343$d7233d20$1564a8c0@mandos.ICONZ> Subject: Re: Namer revision. Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 11:36:09 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 From: "Mandos Mitchinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >This suggests the following directions for Namer: Truth >finding/revealing/telling abilities; magic removal abilities; forcing things to >assume their true form; abilities that prevent magical >coercion/control/deception. I really like the idea, I can see a long hard fight to get a change as large as this seems to suggest through but I like the initial concept. A good range of abilities and directions without needing to resort to way out explainations. A much reduced scope for attack magics which is good in a collage that requires so little MA. Basically I like the idea. Mandos /s -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Nov 19 12:11:29 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id MAA22236; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 12:11:29 +1300 Received: from smtp.worley.co.nz (smtp.worley.co.nz [202.36.210.250]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id MAA22227 ; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 12:11:24 +1300 Received: by smtp.worley.co.nz(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.1 (569.2 2-6-1998)) id 4C2566C1.00014D14 ; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 12:14:12 +1200 X-Lotus-FromDomain: WORLEY CONSULTANTS Message-ID: <4C2566C0.0082A891.00@smtp.worley.co.nz> Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 11:59:47 +1200 Subject: Re: Namer revision. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline From: amtennant@worley.co.nz To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >> This suggests the following directions for Namer: Truth >> finding/revealing/telling abilities; magic removal abilities; forcing things to >> assume their true form; abilities that prevent magical >> coercion/control/deception. >> Contraindicated directions include actual manipulation of magic -- that is the >> domain of E&Es and other wizards. A Namer confronted by a non magical foe >> armed with a club will have nothing in their magical arsenal to help... again, >> good reasons why so many Namers are serious fighters. >Looks good to me. It means that Namers will lose Compell Obedience - no objections >to this from me, but I imagine some other people will be upset. Do you envision a >'detect lie' spell? Do we want such a spell in the game? I don't think that's the kind of "truth" Martin was referring to and it's really difficult and dangerous trying to define that sort of thing. "Purity" is more what he was meaning I think. >I suggest the next stage be a very rough writeup of what you envisage the >rewritten college as looking like (e.g. >"Detect lie spell - self only, lasts tens of minutes, at any time in duration of >spell, adept can concentrate on an entity and know if they are lying") Sounds fine to me, but I still think that a strong part of Naming is that of the control over a thing which is imparted by knowing its name. Surely if you have this insight into somethings nature, then you'd be able to use this to do stuff to the thing. ( c.f. Wizard of Earthsea ) I think one thing which is important for a Namer rewrite is to tidy up the whole Names area. It's OK at the moment, but could be better/neater. BTW Martin, if you need volunteers to help with the Namer rehash, put me down. L8R, Adam. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Nov 19 12:27:29 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id MAA22293; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 12:27:29 +1300 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (root@tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id MAA22283 ; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 12:27:23 +1300 Received: from phaeton.ihug.co.nz (p15-max23.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.102.143]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA22900 ; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 12:15:32 +1300 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19981119121133.007cf100@pop.ihug.co.nz> X-Sender: phaeton@pop.ihug.co.nz X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 12:11:33 +1300 Subject: Re: Namer revision. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: Keith Smith To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >And it suddenly struck me that what Namers do (or at least currently mostly do) >is deal in Truth and the True Forms and Natures of things. > >This ties two areas of Namer together and suggests a unified direction and >possibilities. > >OK... before I start e-babbling too much... here is the idea: > >All magic is deception. No matter the magical rationale i.e.. _how_ it works, >the effect is the same. Magic uses power to shape the world to the caster's >will. In DQ that power is "mana" and the personal energy of the caster to >handle and control that power. Yes, that makes sense - and most of the things that occur are temporary i.e. walls disappear, tunnels close etc. It's only when the effects interact with the real world that the results are permanent. >If someone is "cursed" into being a toad; their "true form and nature" is still >human... in a similar way if an Earth mage "creates" a wall of stone, the >reality is that there is no wall... it is a temporary imposition on reality of >the caster's will. That implies that all magic is illusion. In the above case, there is a wall but it's only going to be there for a short amount of time before it goes back where it came from. >So... Divinatory magics reveal the true nature and form of things (Divination, >DA), Dispelling magics remove magical "deception" (Dissipation, >Counterspell)... Counterspells can also protect against the distorting effects >of magic... Generic True names hold something of the essential nature of the >subject; Individual True names are the sum of the whole of the individual. This makes a great deal of sense. Does that also imply that Namers should be better at Removing Curses? >This suggests the following directions for Namer: Truth >finding/revealing/telling abilities; magic removal abilities; forcing things to >assume their true form; abilities that prevent magical >coercion/control/deception. > >Contraindicated directions include actual manipulation of magic -- that is the >domain of E&Es and other wizards. A Namer confronted by a non magical foe >armed with a club will have nothing in their magical arsenal to help... again, >good reasons why so many Namers are serious fighters. > >Right... all of that said... before I go off an slave over a hot word processor >in this direction... fire away! (Both bouquets and brickbats accepted). :) Looks good to me and I'll be interested to see what you come up with. Keith (phaeton@ihug.co.nz) -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Nov 19 12:30:47 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id MAA22324; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 12:30:47 +1300 Received: from smtp.worley.co.nz (smtp.worley.co.nz [202.36.210.250]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id MAA22313 ; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 12:30:44 +1300 Received: by smtp.worley.co.nz(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.1 (569.2 2-6-1998)) id 4C2566C1.0003105B ; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 12:33:27 +1200 X-Lotus-FromDomain: WORLEY CONSULTANTS Message-ID: <4C2566C1.0001A254.00@smtp.worley.co.nz> Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 12:18:59 +1200 Subject: Re: Namer revision. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline From: amtennant@worley.co.nz To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >>So... Divinatory magics reveal the true nature and form of things >>(Divination,DA), Dispelling magics remove magical "deception" (Dissipation, >>Counterspell)... Counterspells can also protect against the distorting >>effects of magic... Generic True names hold something of the essential >>nature of the subject; Individual True names are the sum of the whole of >>the individual. >This makes a great deal of sense. Does that also imply that Namers should >be better at Removing Curses? Good call Keith. I like it. L8R, Adam. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Nov 19 12:47:29 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id MAA22399; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 12:47:29 +1300 Received: from peace.com (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id MAA22388 ; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 12:47:28 +1300 Received: via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/pcnz2.7) id MAA12526; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 12:35:42 +1300 Message-ID: <36535B64.91723EA5@peace.com> Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 12:42:28 +1300 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5b2 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Namer revision. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. amtennant@worley.co.nz wrote: > >This makes a great deal of sense. Does that also imply that Namers should > >be better at Removing Curses? > > Good call Keith. I like it. It might depend on the nature of the curse -- but yes. If someone is cursed into the form of a toad then a Namer may well be able to command them to return to their true form (say by a Namer special ability rather than Curse Removal)... whereas they may have no special ability to remove a curse in the form of a "doom". Similarly... they may be able to "fix" people who have been turned to stone by a basilisk, or "polymorped" by whatever magic. Cheers, Martin -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Nov 19 12:42:18 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id MAA22366; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 12:42:18 +1300 Received: from peace.com (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id MAA22355 ; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 12:42:16 +1300 Received: via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/pcnz2.7) id MAA12311; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 12:30:31 +1300 Message-ID: <36535A2D.FA24F486@peace.com> Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 12:37:17 +1300 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5b2 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Namer revision. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. amtennant@worley.co.nz wrote: > Do you > envision a > >'detect lie' spell? Do we want such a spell in the game? > > I don't think that's the kind of "truth" Martin was referring to and it's > really difficult and dangerous trying to define that sort of thing. > "Purity" is more what he was meaning I think. I sort of meant both. Lying is a form of deception and is another way of distorting reality. There is said to be power in words, and using words to destroy truth would certainly fall within the scope that I am thinking of. That said, I am very sensitive to the fact the poorly created truth-telling abilities can be plot and mystery killers. But, there are various ways of handling this so that it is not a game killer. > Sounds fine to me, but I still think that a strong part of Naming is that > of the > control over a thing which is imparted by knowing its name. > Surely if you have this insight into somethings nature, then you'd be able > to use > this to do stuff to the thing. ( c.f. Wizard of Earthsea ) The Namer/Earthsea thing has always been a problem area. In Earthsea all magic is done by names -- it isn't a kind or flavour of magic -- it is the underpinning of the magical system. Earthsea wizards can summon demons by their names and create illusions the same way. The can cause the sea to rise or rocks to move... all by the power of their name. In DQ this does not work -- and it is a great pity that the original designers didn't think a little harder about this. Once you have removed Demon summoning, 'cos that's what "Summoners" do, and illusions have gone to "Illusionist" and the various controls of elements have gone to the Elemental Colleges... what is left? DQ namers have been left with "Compel Obedience" as a pale shade of their Earthsea abilities and then had a bunch of other unrelated stuff added to flesh out the College -- otherwise they would have had only 2 abilities -- DA to get names and Compel to use them. If someone can come up with an idea how Namers can do their "controlling things by the power of their name" in a way that does not engender a demarkation dispute with almost every other College I would be keen to hear about it. That all said... if Namers deal in truth, and names contain truths about the subject then there are possibilites. I just don't see why knowing truth about a person allows you to make them stick a sword in their friend... that is unless it is something they always rather wanted to do anyway. > I think one thing which is important for a Namer rewrite is to tidy up the > whole Names area. It's OK at the moment, but could be better/neater. Agreed. Part of the re-write deals with Names, and another (admittedly optional part) deals with Auras. I think that generally the number of GTNs needs to be reduced/limited if they are to be useful in any way. > BTW Martin, if you need volunteers to help with the Namer rehash, put me > down. Thank you that would be great. I'll see how this idea pans out and then probably ask for any spell/ability/etc ideas that people can come up with. Cheers, Martin -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Nov 19 14:14:36 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id OAA22559; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 14:14:36 +1300 Received: from mail.iconz.co.nz (mail.iconz.co.nz [202.14.100.36]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id OAA22549 ; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 14:14:34 +1300 Received: from mandos (e0.firewall.ak.iconz.net.nz [202.14.100.208]) by mail.iconz.co.nz (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA242260911437367 ; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 14:02:47 +1300 (NZDT) Message-ID: <012f01be1358$220734e0$1564a8c0@mandos.ICONZ> Subject: Re: Namer revision. Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 14:01:22 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 From: "Mandos Mitchinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >If someone is cursed into the form of a toad then a Namer may well be able to >command them to return to their true form (say by a Namer special ability >rather than Curse Removal)... whereas they may have no special ability to >remove a curse in the form of a "doom". > >Similarly... they may be able to "fix" people who have been turned to stone by >a basilisk, or "polymorped" by whatever magic. It should be noted that these spells or abilities should not be too easy. Already it is all too important to have a Namer on a high level adventure, don't put thise who have ranked Remove curse out of buisness by making the namers able to remove curses and things easily. Also don't downgrade the difficulties that curses cause by making them instantly dismissable. A good cursing can add to the flavour of a game, and we are ironing out enough of the things that cause us problems on adventure. Mandos /s -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Nov 19 14:24:09 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id OAA22600; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 14:24:09 +1300 Received: from peace.com (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id OAA22591 ; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 14:24:08 +1300 Received: via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/pcnz2.7) id OAA16666; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 14:12:22 +1300 Message-ID: <3653720C.21CC036A@peace.com> Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 14:19:08 +1300 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5b2 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Namer revision. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Mandos Mitchinson wrote: > It should be noted that these spells or abilities should not be too easy. > Already it is all too important to have a Namer on a high level adventure, > don't put thise who have ranked Remove curse out of buisness by making the > namers able to remove curses and things easily. > > Also don't downgrade the difficulties that curses cause by making them > instantly dismissable. A good cursing can add to the flavour of a game, and > we are ironing out enough of the things that cause us problems on adventure. Point well taken. I was mostly just refering to the types of abilites that would fall within the theroretical bounds of the Namer college, and those that would not. That said, and it could be merely my own experience and perception, but amongst those PCs who I have seen with any reasonable Rank in Remove Curse, Namers are dissproportionally represented. I think that even now it is seen as a very "Namer-ish" thing to do... either that or as an ability it has attracted the same people who are attracted to the Namer college. Cheers, Martin -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Nov 19 14:40:53 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id OAA22637; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 14:40:53 +1300 Received: from peace.com (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id OAA22627 ; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 14:40:52 +1300 Received: via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/pcnz2.7) id OAA17748; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 14:29:05 +1300 Orig-Sender: Michael.Woodhams@peace.com Message-ID: <36537460.39BDCE55@peace.co.nz> Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 14:29:04 +1300 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05C-SGI [en] (X11; I; IRIX 6.5 IP32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Namer revision. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Michael Woodhams To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: Michael.Woodhams@peace.com X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Martin Dickson wrote: > amtennant@worley.co.nz wrote: > > > >This makes a great deal of sense. Does that also imply that Namers should > > >be better at Removing Curses? > > > > Good call Keith. I like it. > > It might depend on the nature of the curse -- but yes. > Remove curse as a Gen Knowledge ritual for namers, +10% if you know the cursee's GTN, +25% if the sucker gives you their ITN? -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Nov 19 14:47:31 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id OAA22673; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 14:47:31 +1300 Received: from fep1-orange.clear.net.nz (fep1-orange.clear.net.nz [203.97.32.1]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id OAA22662 ; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 14:47:30 +1300 Received: from qed_akl_nt_1.qed.co.nz ([203.97.23.141]) by fep1-orange.clear.net.nz (1.5/1.11) with ESMTP id OAA19010; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 14:35:13 +1300 (NZDT) Received: by qed_akl_nt_1.qed.co.nz with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) id ; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 14:35:46 +1300 Message-ID: <15A7D8BC5E3ED2119E2E0000F82150FC010A4B@qed_akl_nt_1.qed.co.nz> Subject: RE: Namer revision. Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 14:35:37 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain From: Stephen Martin To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. What you could do is add a bonus to curse removal for ranks in the GTN or ITN of the cursed individual. Namers rank names as a matter of course and thus are generally better at removing curses. If others want to spend the time on ranking names themselves then they could be as good. I would like to see more use of names throughout the system. Namers will generally be best at names because they get the "free" time to rank them, however other mages may have ranks in one or two names that are important to them. Possible Proposal: Any magic targetted at an individual entity have their base chance of success increased if the adept has ranks in the target's name. +1% per rank in GTN. +2% per rank in ITN. For magics of the college of Naming Incantations use these bonuses instead: +2% per rank in GTN. +5% per rank in ITN. For the purposes of bonuses, Namers may consider Curse removal to be part of their college. NB: I specified individually targetted because it keeps it simpler. If you're affecting multiple targets then you get no bonus for names. Also it only works for entities because only entities have names... so far...:) Cheers, Stephen. > -----Original Message----- > From: Martin Dickson [SMTP:martin.dickson@peace.com] > Sent: Thursday, November 19, 1998 2:19 PM > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Subject: Re: Namer revision. > > > Mandos Mitchinson wrote: > > > It should be noted that these spells or abilities should not be too > easy. > > Already it is all too important to have a Namer on a high level > adventure, > > don't put thise who have ranked Remove curse out of buisness by > making the > > namers able to remove curses and things easily. > > > > Also don't downgrade the difficulties that curses cause by making > them > > instantly dismissable. A good cursing can add to the flavour of a > game, and > > we are ironing out enough of the things that cause us problems on > adventure. > > Point well taken. > > I was mostly just refering to the types of abilites that would fall > within the > theroretical bounds of the Namer college, and those that would not. > > That said, and it could be merely my own experience and perception, > but amongst > those PCs who I have seen with any reasonable Rank in Remove Curse, > Namers are > dissproportionally represented. I think that even now it is seen as a > very > "Namer-ish" thing to do... either that or as an ability it has > attracted the > same people who are attracted to the Namer college. > > Cheers, > Martin > > > > -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Nov 19 14:56:53 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id OAA22711; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 14:56:53 +1300 Received: from mail.iconz.co.nz (mail.iconz.co.nz [202.14.100.36]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id OAA22700 ; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 14:56:51 +1300 Received: from mandos (e0.firewall.ak.iconz.net.nz [202.14.100.208]) by mail.iconz.co.nz (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA058730911439904 ; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 14:45:04 +1300 (NZDT) Message-ID: <016401be135e$0a5d68e0$1564a8c0@mandos.ICONZ> Subject: Re: Namer revision. Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 14:43:40 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 From: "Mandos Mitchinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >That said, and it could be merely my own experience and perception, but amongst >those PCs who I have seen with any reasonable Rank in Remove Curse, Namers are >dissproportionally represented. I think that even now it is seen as a very >"Namer-ish" thing to do... either that or as an ability it has attracted the >same people who are attracted to the Namer college. I actually think it is possibly due to Namers having little to spend EP on so they tend to collect the non-collage spells more than most other collages. But that in itself does form a part of the collage as how we percieve it. I do feel it will be important that the impact of a curse is not removed along with the use of the remove curse ritual. Mandos /s -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Nov 19 15:11:42 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id PAA22757; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 15:11:42 +1300 Received: from peace.com (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id PAA22746 ; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 15:11:39 +1300 Received: via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/pcnz2.7) id OAA19280; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 14:59:50 +1300 Message-ID: <36537D2D.8DE2045@peace.com> Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 15:06:37 +1300 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5b2 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Namer revision. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Michael Woodhams wrote: > Remove curse as a Gen Knowledge ritual for namers, +10% if you know the cursee's > GTN, +25% if the sucker gives you their ITN? If the Namer College was given a College specific form of Remove Curse (probably as a Special Knowledge ritual) then they would get to apply their College bonuses to it -- which they cannot do at present, and the GTN/ITN bonuses would then increase their BC. The BC of the ritual could also be modified for them -- but this does not _have_ to be done. Of course with the lousy MAs that many Namers have, those Curses should feel safe and happy. :) Cheers, Martin -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Nov 19 15:25:35 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id PAA22791; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 15:25:35 +1300 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (root@tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id PAA22781 ; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 15:25:34 +1300 Received: from phaeton.ihug.co.nz (p27-max29.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.104.27]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA19718 ; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 15:13:46 +1300 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19981119150945.00793ac0@pop.ihug.co.nz> X-Sender: phaeton@pop.ihug.co.nz X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 15:09:45 +1300 Subject: RE: Namer revision. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: Keith Smith To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >What you could do is add a bonus to curse removal for ranks in the GTN >or ITN of the cursed individual. This may seem like a really way-out idea but what about a bonus for having the ITN of the person who performed the curse? That could be an adventure idea. Find out about the entity who put the curse on so it can be lifted more easily. Keith (phaeton@ihug.co.nz) -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Nov 19 15:34:26 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id PAA22848; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 15:34:26 +1300 Received: from peace.com (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id PAA22839 ; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 15:34:25 +1300 Received: via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/pcnz2.7) id PAA20824; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 15:22:34 +1300 Message-ID: <36538281.EF1102B8@peace.com> Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 15:29:21 +1300 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5b2 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Namer revision. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Keith Smith wrote: > >What you could do is add a bonus to curse removal for ranks in the GTN > >or ITN of the cursed individual. > > This may seem like a really way-out idea but what about a bonus for having > the ITN of the person who performed the curse? > > That could be an adventure idea. Find out about the entity who put the > curse on so it can be lifted more easily. I think that that is an excellent idea Keith. The idea that possessing a Wizards true name gives you power over their magic and an improved ability to remove sounds perfect. Cheers, Martin -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Nov 19 15:33:19 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id PAA22821; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 15:33:19 +1300 Received: from mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (mailhost.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.1.4]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id PAA22812 ; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 15:33:17 +1300 Received: from sci4 (lbr-122-42.lbrsc.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.122.42]) by mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (8.9.1/8.9.1/8.9.1-ua) with SMTP id PAA29245 ; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 15:21:30 +1300 (NZDT) Message-Id: <199811190221.PAA29245@mailhost.auckland.ac.nz> Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 15:25:17 +0000 Subject: Re: Namer -- Concepts & Names X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) From: "Michael Parkinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-to: m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Dear All, I apologise in advance for the conjecture and rationalisation that this mailing contains. PART 1 - Concepts & Names Martin said: > I sort of meant both. Lying is a form of deception and is another way of > distorting reality. There is said to be power in words, and using words to > destroy truth would certainly fall within the scope that I am thinking of. There is *too* much that can be read into "the power of the Word" in magic -- so lets limit ourselves to only certain aspects. E.g.: Considering the alternatives 1: THE Word being the primal cause of everything, e.g. Word=God 2: A Word representing a concept, including actual objects and spirits (alias "Nomen = Numen") -- an application of the law of similarities. 3: Utterance of a Word causing physical creation, e.g. "Fiat Lux" 4: Using words (or the alteration of a word), to transform something from one state to another e.g. traditional Jewish golem etc All of which are *too* potent to be trusted to a single college. But there is nothing wrong with our saying that Namers (upto & including Demons) have insignifigant power when compared with the Universe, or the Prime Cause, or whatever (the ultimate manifestation of essence). > If someone can come up with an idea how Namers can do their "controlling > things by the power of their name" in a way that does not engender a > demarkation dispute with almost every other College I would be keen to > hear about it. If we temporarily ignore Compel (**insert Virtual Book mark #1), I think you are mostly there there when you say that Namer has limited dominion over magic. The namer deals with Names: i.e., what *is* and which can never be false to itself when it is itself. Thus namer counterspells represent an affirmation of essence against the transformation/action of magic. -- hold this thought for a moment. But the Namer utilises magic to acheive this end, rather than the pure force of the Word/Name (possibly this is why the defence is not complete, temporary, etc.) Furthermore one of our perceived problems/irritations has been that names have usually been of animates only, despite the original pre-amble on Namers in DQ1 (& DQ2?) where an example of GTN is "Granite". Since Namers get bonuses for ranks in generic names (and superbonuses for ITNs), I suggest that the Namers' chances increase because they have found a manifestation of essence, or anima, onto which to graft their anti-magic spell. Similarly the ITN is more effective because any human can be a Human, if that's all that is required, but you are the best You there can be. Note that with GTNs, the sentience of the target is irrelevant -- but that is in accordance with the above concept. We may think that an elf is more powerfully alive than a monkey (since it is a few notches higher in the DA rainbow) but, using Martin's concept of "Name as Essence," the Monkey is as much a Monkey as the Elf is an Elf. What effects the Namer's Base chance is the *rank*in the appropriate GTN. B.t.w: since it takes only time to rank names, I suggest the following PROPOSAL: The maximum rank attainable with generic true names is 20. > That all said... if Namers deal in truth, and names contain truths about the > subject then there are possibilites. I just don't see why knowing truth about > a person allows you to make them stick a sword in their friend... that is > unless it is something they always rather wanted to do anyway. Virtual Book mark #1: Compel Obedience Frankly I hate the spell-- Suggestion #1: dispose of this horrid spell. Suggestion #2: it can only be cast on targets that have ITNs although it is not necessary to actually know the ITNs concerned -- this minimizes the Earthsea-type concept that you can do *anything* if you know the Name of the target including mimic all other colleges. Or suggestion #3 give the college 2 aspects: Wizards (i.e., who are wise) that bestow/discover names, and use their magic to restore the essence to enchanted beings (??bonus on Curse removal; ??bonus on dissipation) -vs- Warlocks (i.e. who have broken the Compact) that get to Compel Obedience (?? and perhaps other compulsive magic similiar to Turf's Name-prohibition ritual) Concerning curses -- see next mailing, regards, Michael Michael Parkinson Assistant Librarian Email: m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz Science Library Phone: (9) 3737 599 x 5858 University of Auckland Fax: (9) 3082 304 -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Nov 19 15:36:47 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id PAA22877; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 15:36:47 +1300 Received: from fclaklmr01.fcl.co.nz ([203.98.14.148] (may be forged)) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id PAA22866 ; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 15:36:46 +1300 Received: from falaklnt000.falum.co.nz ([10.8.1.20]) by fclaklmr01.fcl.co.nz (Post.Office MTA v3.5.1 release 219 ID# 0-0U10L2S100) with SMTP id nz ; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 15:24:28 +1300 Received: by falaklnt000.falum.co.nz with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5) id <01BE13D1.20ED5570@falaklnt000.falum.co.nz>; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 15:27:33 +1300 Message-ID: Subject: RE: Namer revision. Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 15:27:28 +1300 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Andrew Withy (FAL AKL)" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. One reason for having the ITNs of all those Demons - BTW, I'm collecting ITNs of E&E demons this year... Andrew >---------- >>What you could do is add a bonus to curse removal for ranks in the GTN >>or ITN of the cursed individual. > >This may seem like a really way-out idea but what about a bonus for having >the ITN of the person who performed the curse? -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Nov 19 15:40:05 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id PAA22917; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 15:40:05 +1300 Received: from smtp.worley.co.nz (smtp.worley.co.nz [202.36.210.250]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id PAA22905 ; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 15:39:57 +1300 Received: by smtp.worley.co.nz(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.1 (569.2 2-6-1998)) id 4C2566C1.001461EF ; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 15:42:37 +1200 X-Lotus-FromDomain: WORLEY CONSULTANTS Message-ID: <4C2566C1.0012F343.00@smtp.worley.co.nz> Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 15:28:06 +1200 Subject: Re: Namer revision. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline From: amtennant@worley.co.nz To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >> This may seem like a really way-out idea but what about a bonus for having >> the ITN of the person who performed the curse? >> That could be an adventure idea. Find out about the entity who put the >> curse on so it can be lifted more easily. >I think that that is an excellent idea Keith. >The idea that possessing a Wizards true name gives you power over their magic >and an improved ability to remove sounds perfect. I agree, very cool idea. Keith seems to be full of good ideas today. Quick, get him to a word processor! :) L8R, Adam. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Nov 19 15:47:53 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id PAA22947; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 15:47:53 +1300 Received: from fep1-orange.clear.net.nz (fep1-orange.clear.net.nz [203.97.32.1]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id PAA22937 ; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 15:47:51 +1300 Received: from qed_akl_nt_1.qed.co.nz ([203.97.23.141]) by fep1-orange.clear.net.nz (1.5/1.11) with ESMTP id PAA12797; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 15:35:28 +1300 (NZDT) Received: by qed_akl_nt_1.qed.co.nz with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) id ; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 15:35:59 +1300 Message-ID: <15A7D8BC5E3ED2119E2E0000F82150FC010A4C@qed_akl_nt_1.qed.co.nz> Subject: RE: Namer revision. Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 15:35:54 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain From: Stephen Martin To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. And an improved ability to resist their magic? > -----Original Message----- > From: Martin Dickson [SMTP:martin.dickson@peace.com] > Sent: Thursday, November 19, 1998 3:29 PM > > The idea that possessing a Wizards true name gives you power over > their magic > and an improved ability to remove sounds perfect. > -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Nov 19 16:04:02 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id QAA23012; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 16:04:02 +1300 Received: from mail.iconz.co.nz (mail.iconz.co.nz [202.14.100.36]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id QAA23002 ; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 16:04:01 +1300 Received: from mandos (e0.firewall.ak.iconz.net.nz [202.14.100.208]) by mail.iconz.co.nz (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA239880911443929 ; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 15:52:09 +1300 (NZDT) Message-ID: <001501be1367$69169740$1564a8c0@mandos.ICONZ> Subject: Re: Namer revision. Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 15:50:46 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 From: "Mandos Mitchinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >If the Namer College was given a College specific form of Remove Curse (probably as >a Special Knowledge ritual) then they would get to apply their College bonuses to it >-- which they cannot do at present, and the GTN/ITN bonuses would then increase >their BC. > >The BC of the ritual could also be modified for them -- but this does not _have_ to >be done. > >Of course with the lousy MAs that many Namers have, those Curses should feel safe >and happy. :) This I like, a good sensible solution that changes very few rules and provides better use of Names as well as something useful for Namers. Mandos /s -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Nov 19 16:08:57 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id QAA23046; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 16:08:57 +1300 Received: from mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (mailhost.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.1.4]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id QAA23035 ; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 16:08:56 +1300 Received: from sci4 (lbr-122-42.lbrsc.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.122.42]) by mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (8.9.1/8.9.1/8.9.1-ua) with SMTP id PAA04213 ; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 15:57:02 +1300 (NZDT) Message-Id: <199811190257.PAA04213@mailhost.auckland.ac.nz> Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 16:00:49 +0000 Subject: RE: Namer -- Curses X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) From: "Michael Parkinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-to: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Dear all, > What you could do is add a bonus to curse removal for ranks in the GTN > or ITN of the cursed individual. I would be wary of adding too great a bonus, perhaps merely +(Rank in GTN) to all remove curse chances. This fits in with Martin's concept of the GTN representing the True form. It may sound bizzare, but I would prefer that there was no bonus for ITNs; In part, so that the Namer/Curse remover does not get an *exhorbitant* bonus compared with other mages. Furthmore consider the test case of Prince Fred, a human, transformed into a Frog by a curse. Now it may be individually appropriate [I.T.N.] for Prince Fred to be a Frog -- I've always felt that ITN and fate should be somehow linked; but it is definitely unnatural for a Human [G.T.N.] to be a Frog. So why not give the Namer the GTN bonus, but not the ITN bonus. I tend to agree with Mandos: > Also don't downgrade the difficulties that curses cause by making them > instantly dismissable. A good cursing can add to the flavour of a game, > and we are ironing out enough of the things that cause us problems on > adventure. But he is, technically, *completely* wrong when he says > I actually think it is possibly due to Namers having little to spend EP > on so they tend to collect the non-collage spells more than most other > collages. As i have shown before, Namers have too much to spend their ep on. Naming is the MOST (!!) expensive college to learn, based on the ep required to rank the General Knowlege spells high enough (RK 6) to teach others. It however the most *boring* college to rank; although actual ranks of counterspell are crucial to specific adventures, the corpus of General knowledge is very bland & boring: I only managed to maintain the determination for couple of sessions in a row that ALL my character's counterspells should be Rk6, then Rk 7, etc. regards, Michael Michael Parkinson Assistant Librarian Email: m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz Science Library Phone: (9) 3737 599 x 5858 University of Auckland Fax: (9) 3082 304 -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Nov 19 16:31:18 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id QAA23112; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 16:31:18 +1300 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (root@tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id QAA23101 ; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 16:31:16 +1300 Received: from homeserver (p9-max8.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.98.201]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA04953 ; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 16:19:28 +1300 Message-ID: <00b201be136b$6fd2d8b0$c96212ce@homeserver.Home> Subject: Re: Childish Behaviour? Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 16:19:36 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 From: "rodking" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: "rodking" X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >>You Jim are the most revolting piece of trash I've ever had the misfortune >>to interact with. I presume you are the product of child abuse and this >>persona you manefest is the best your counselors could achieve. It is >>sad and pathetic that you can find no other way to interact with >>humanity than abuse and conflict. I guess pity is the only reasonable >>response, but I never claimed to be reasonable. > Eh God! For God sake if you can't take critiscisim don't bother writing to the list. Jim is often acerbic but his points are interesting even if I don't always agree with them (beleif systems are optional). But posting crap like child abuse accusations is the lowest I've seen on this list. Learn some restaint or don't post this type of rubbish. Paul -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Nov 19 16:48:50 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id QAA23184; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 16:48:50 +1300 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (root@tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id QAA23174 ; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 16:48:46 +1300 Received: from phaeton.ihug.co.nz (p19-max35.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.105.147]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA32295 ; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 16:36:58 +1300 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19981119163257.007cf100@pop.ihug.co.nz> X-Sender: phaeton@pop.ihug.co.nz X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 16:32:57 +1300 Subject: Re: Namer revision. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: Keith Smith To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. > >>The idea that possessing a Wizards true name gives you power over their >magic >>and an improved ability to remove sounds perfect. > >I agree, very cool idea. > >Keith seems to be full of good ideas today. Quick, get him to a word >processor! >:) In that case, Wordperfect is warmed up and ready to go :-) Seriously though, it's a team effort, and I'd like to help out. Keith (phaeton@ihug.co.nz) -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Nov 19 16:59:02 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id QAA23225; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 16:59:02 +1300 Received: from kcbbs.gen.nz (kcbbs.gen.nz [202.14.102.1]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id QAA23213 ; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 16:58:59 +1300 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by kcbbs.gen.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA19186 ; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 16:44:08 +1300 (NZDT) Message-ID: <36539007.AD936407@games.co.nz> Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 16:27:04 +1300 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Logic and consistancy in DQ (And other matters) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------41FAAA4FEC7FE943EE63EBCC" From: Mike Young To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. --------------41FAAA4FEC7FE943EE63EBCC Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Keith Smith wrote: > >>That is not my assumption. My assumption, such as it is, is that the game > doesn't need to have an underlying, logical or even consistent rationale. > > I'm sorry but I don't think I understand exactly what you're trying to say > here. There has to be some consistancy in the basic structure of the game > world, otherwise we're looking at a chaotic state. Isn't it expected that the > same spell cast would have the same effects each time (backfires > notwithstanding). That does imply some consistancy. I believe that one of the charms of the DQ magic system is its inconsistancy. How can you believe a system to be consistant that has both Backfires and Doubles/Triples? (If you amend that Doubles and Triples can only effect range, duration and damage then many things are possible.) Throw in a multi-GM universe and the inconsistancies become even more pronounced! All these rules-lawers are just players trying to stamp their authority on the game at the expence of the creativity of the GM's and the wonder of the universe. And sure there are GM's out there that may benifit from such constraints, but not too many I hope. And if there are then hopefully they will learn from their mistakes and experience. If the spells and monsters are too tightly controlled by the rules then life gets boring real fast. I cannot help but feeling that requiring everything to be spelt out for you just shows a lack of imagination. And you cannot write rules that will fix that! Far too much attention is paid to consistancy with spells effects. People seem to be under the impression that you can write spell descriptions that will tell everyone how this spell will work in all circumstances and under whatever conditions. This is of course next to impossible but people insist that we try and do it anyway. As a GM you are constantly having to make rulings about the effects of a spell. There is often no precedence and if there is you are unaware of it (if you even care). So you make a ruling and get on with the game. If it's REALLY important then you might propose a rewrite of the spell, but you cannot be expected to write every such ruling into the rules. If you look at Magic as being this weird, sometimes chaotic stuff that often allows you to achieve many and sometimes wonderous things, but works differently from place to place then you approach close to how I belief Magic should work in DQ. The place to place might be a physical location, a different GM or a shift in the mana field that you can't detect until you have cast the spell (this could explain how the same spell cast in the same place under the same conditions might work differently without a backfire or Double/Triple). The very idea that magic should behave like an scientific experiment is flawed and has no place in the DQ universe. One of the reasons for my 'reputation' is that I am not afraid to correct the mistakes (as I see them) of my fellow GM's (not to mention my own). The way I see it is that there are plenty of poorly thought out items and abilities being given out willy-nilly and only one or two people prepared to do anything about them. This is not to say that my vision of the DQ universe is perfect and should be adhered to by everyone. But I do have a good grasp of what feels right to me based on nearly 20 years of playing the game. Besides I have yet to see a GM who plays any magic item exactly as it is written when it suits them. And these days I'm more inclined to bring problem items to the attention of the GM who designed them for 'clarification' rather than ripping them up and scattering them to the four winds. Apart from being fairer to all concerned, the GM's concerned may actually learn something. Another aspect of my 'reputation' is that I do not let the rules get in the way of a good story. Too often the rules get in the way and break the flow of the game. Be it the suspension of disbelief or just some stupid thing that's a RULE. For example I hate the way combat divides up the game into 5 second lumps where you have a Time Out, Decide Initiative, Backstab, Engaged figures, Unengaged Figures, Mages Cast, Stun Recovery, Next Pulse....So I'm forever trying to describe the action so that it disguises this structure as much as possible. You would be suprised at how hard this is to do without getting repeditive. I use a modified Initiative system that melds Decide Initiative, Backstab, Engaged figures, Unengaged figures and Mages Casting into two so that you end up with Time Out, Decide Initiative, Action.....It works better for me and the players soon get the hang of it. But no doubt the Rules Police will hate it. Does this mean I'm not playing DQ? Well I guess you will have to ask the players who keep on turning up for my games. I guess my message here is that the rules are o.k. to base the game around but its up to you how much you let them get in the way before you just ignore or change them. As long as you are fair and entertaining, players will be happy with just about any punishment you can dish out at them, rules or no rules. And if they are not happy then I have to tell me because I can't be expected to be able to read everybodies mind! As far as consistancy goes within the campaign world. Sure it would be nice if the GM's wrote up their material so that the next GM that came through the same place could perhaps incorporate it. BUT DO YOU REALLY THINK THIS IS GOING TO HAPPEN? If so I don't know what reality you exist in? Much of this inconsistancy can be explained away. For example, depending on the GM's whim at the time, how many of you have crossed the bridge into Seagate (this was before the current bridge was built), caught the ferry into Seagate, crossed the ford to Seagate? I imagine most of you. Were any of them wrong? No of course not. It just means that there are at least 3 ways across the Sweetwater that you can take from the Guild. I would only be concerned if an NPC was operating a teleport service across the Sweetwater, even if they were using say Runesticks because it feels wrong although it's quite within the rules. But that's off the subject (What ever that was). The best we can hope for at the moment is that the scribe might record some of the details and that the GM might read the scribes notes and perhaps incorporate them. For goodness sakes we can't even get the maps to be consistant, how do you expect the rest of it to be? Anyway, enough rambling for now. I hope some or all of you find something useful in this. Regards, Michael Young --------------41FAAA4FEC7FE943EE63EBCC Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Keith Smith wrote:
>>That is not my assumption. My assumption, such as it is, is that the game doesn't need to have an underlying, logical or even consistent rationale.

I'm sorry but I don't think I understand exactly what you're trying to say here. There has to be some consistancy in the basic structure of the game world, otherwise we're looking at a chaotic state. Isn't it expected that the same spell cast would have the same effects each time (backfires
notwithstanding). That does imply some consistancy.

I believe that one of the charms of the DQ magic system is its inconsistancy. How can you believe a system to be consistant that has both Backfires and Doubles/Triples? (If you amend that Doubles and Triples can only effect range, duration and damage then many things are possible.) Throw in a multi-GM universe and the inconsistancies become even more pronounced! All these rules-lawers are just players trying to stamp their authority on the game at the expence of the creativity of the GM's and the wonder of the universe. And sure there are GM's out there that may benifit from such constraints, but not too many I hope. And if there are then hopefully they will learn from their mistakes and experience. If the spells and monsters are too tightly controlled by the rules then life gets boring real fast. I cannot help but feeling that requiring everything to be spelt out for you just shows a lack of imagination. And you cannot write rules that will fix that!
 

Far too much attention is paid to consistancy with spells effects. People seem to be under the impression that you can write spell descriptions that will tell everyone how this spell will work in all circumstances and under whatever conditions. This is of course next to impossible but people insist that we try and do it anyway. As a GM you are constantly having to make rulings about the effects of a spell. There is often no precedence and if there is you are unaware of it (if you even care). So you make a ruling and get on with the game. If it's REALLY important then you might propose a rewrite of the spell, but you cannot be expected to write every such ruling into the rules.
 

If you look at Magic as being this weird, sometimes chaotic stuff that often allows you to achieve many and sometimes wonderous things, but works differently from place to place then you approach close to how I belief Magic should work in DQ. The place to place might be a physical location, a different GM or a shift in the mana field that you can't detect until you have cast the spell (this could explain how the same spell cast in the same place under the same conditions might work differently without a backfire or Double/Triple). The very idea that magic should behave like an scientific experiment is flawed and has no place in the DQ universe.
 

One of the reasons for my 'reputation' is that I am not afraid to correct the mistakes (as I see them) of my fellow GM's (not to mention my own). The way I see it is that there are plenty of poorly thought out items and abilities being given out willy-nilly and only one or two people prepared to do anything about them. This is not to say that my vision of the DQ universe is perfect and should be adhered to by everyone. But I do have a good grasp of what feels right to me based on nearly 20 years of playing the game. Besides I have yet to see a GM who plays any magic item exactly as it is written when it suits them. And these days I'm more inclined to bring problem items to the attention of the GM who designed them for 'clarification' rather than ripping them up and scattering them to the four winds. Apart from being fairer to all concerned, the GM's concerned may actually learn something. Another aspect of my 'reputation' is that I do not let the rules get in the way of a good story. Too often the rules get in the way and break the flow of the game. Be it the suspension of disbelief or just some stupid thing that's a RULE.
 

For example I hate the way combat divides up the game into 5 second lumps where you have a Time Out, Decide Initiative, Backstab, Engaged figures, Unengaged Figures, Mages Cast, Stun Recovery, Next Pulse....So I'm forever trying to describe the action so that it disguises this structure as much as possible. You would be suprised at how hard this is to do without getting repeditive. I use a modified Initiative system that melds Decide Initiative, Backstab, Engaged figures, Unengaged figures and Mages Casting into two so that you end up with Time Out, Decide Initiative, Action.....It works better for me and the players soon get the hang of it. But no doubt the Rules Police will hate it. Does this mean I'm not playing DQ? Well I guess you will have to ask the players who keep on turning up for my games. I guess my message here is that the rules are o.k. to base the game around but its up to you how much you let them get in the way before you just ignore or change them. As long as you are fair and entertaining, players will be happy with just about any punishment you can dish out at them, rules or no rules. And if they are not happy then I have to tell me because I can't be expected to be able to read everybodies mind!
 

As far as consistancy goes within the campaign world. Sure it would be nice if the GM's wrote up their material so that the next GM that came through the same place could perhaps incorporate it. BUT DO YOU REALLY THINK THIS IS GOING TO HAPPEN? If so I don't know what reality you exist in? Much of this inconsistancy can be explained away. For example,  depending on the GM's whim at the time, how many of you have crossed the bridge into Seagate (this was before the current bridge was built), caught the ferry into Seagate, crossed the ford to Seagate? I imagine most of you. Were any of them wrong? No of course not. It just means that there are at least 3 ways across the Sweetwater that you can take from the Guild. I would only be concerned if an NPC was operating a teleport service across the Sweetwater, even if they were using say Runesticks because it feels wrong although it's quite within the rules. But that's off the subject (What ever that was). The best we can hope for at the moment is that the scribe might record some of the details and that the GM might read the scribes notes and perhaps incorporate them. For goodness sakes we can't even get the maps to be consistant, how do you expect the rest of it to be?
 

Anyway, enough rambling for now. I hope some or all of you find something useful in this.
 

Regards,
Michael Young --------------41FAAA4FEC7FE943EE63EBCC-- -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Nov 19 17:14:13 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id RAA23284; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 17:14:13 +1300 Received: from fclaklmr01.fcl.co.nz ([203.98.14.148] (may be forged)) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id RAA23273 ; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 17:14:11 +1300 Received: from falaklnt000.falum.co.nz ([10.8.1.20]) by fclaklmr01.fcl.co.nz (Post.Office MTA v3.5.1 release 219 ID# 0-0U10L2S100) with SMTP id nz ; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 17:01:51 +1300 Received: by falaklnt000.falum.co.nz with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5) id <01BE13DE.C01AC580@falaklnt000.falum.co.nz>; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 17:05:03 +1300 Message-ID: Subject: RE: Logic and consistancy in DQ (And other matters) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 17:05:02 +1300 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Andrew Withy (FAL AKL)" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Speaking of maps, Kelsie's map of Seagate is now "out", and it would be good if everyone could modify their future descriptions of Seagate to be similar to it, to help create some of that hard-to-find consistency. It is a compromise of what GMs have said over the ages, and is thus different from every individual opinion, but it is a concrete, consistent, available resource based on maps of around the right period & put together after lots of research, and it is also pretty. Thanks Kelsie. Andrew >---------- >From: Mike Young[SMTP:mike@games.co.nz] >Subject: Logic and consistancy in DQ (And other matters) >As far as consistancy goes within the campaign world. Sure it would be nice >if >the GM's wrote up their material so that the next GM that came through the >same >place could perhaps incorporate it. >For goodness sakes we can't even get the maps to be consistant, how do you >expect the rest of it to be? -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Nov 19 17:26:56 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id RAA23330; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 17:26:56 +1300 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (root@tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id RAA23319 ; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 17:26:55 +1300 Received: from phaeton.ihug.co.nz (p19-max35.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.105.147]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA04883 ; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 17:14:54 +1300 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19981119171050.007bf9d0@pop.ihug.co.nz> X-Sender: phaeton@pop.ihug.co.nz X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 17:10:50 +1300 Subject: RE: Logic and consistancy in DQ (And other matters) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: Keith Smith To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >Speaking of maps, Kelsie's map of Seagate is now "out", and it would be >good if everyone could modify their future descriptions of Seagate to be >similar to it, to help create some of that hard-to-find consistency. It >is a compromise of what GMs have said over the ages, and is thus >different from every individual opinion, but it is a concrete, >consistent, available resource based on maps of around the right period >& put together after lots of research, and it is also pretty. How do we get hold of it please? >Thanks Kelsie. Seconded. Keith (phaeton@ihug.co.nz) -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Nov 19 17:30:15 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id RAA23362; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 17:30:15 +1300 Received: from peace.com (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id RAA23353 ; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 17:30:14 +1300 Received: via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/pcnz2.7) id RAA26939; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 17:18:26 +1300 Message-ID: <36539DA8.CC96E0A5@peace.com> Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 17:25:13 +1300 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5b2 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Logic and consistancy in DQ (And other matters) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Mike Young wrote: > Far too much attention is paid to consistancy with spells effects. > People seem to be under the impression that you can write spell > descriptions that will tell everyone how this spell will work in all > circumstances and under whatever conditions. I think that I used to believe this -- but the years (and looking back at some of the abominable write-ups that have resulted) have changed my opinion. Different GM interpretations based on different circumstances and conditions are one thing -- different interpretations due to poor writing and ambiguity are another. I think that the best we can achieve is that the write up is as unambiguous as possible and attempts to define the intent of the spell. Attempts to pin every last possibility down result in long, wordy, dull, legalese. > If you look at Magic as being this weird, sometimes chaotic stuff that > often allows you to achieve many and sometimes wonderous things, but > works differently from place to place then you approach close to how I > belief Magic should work in DQ. Yes, though I think this has to be within some reasonable limits -- if magic is too chaotic then it is not possible to use it intelligently, or to decide what your character would do. > The very idea that magic should behave like an scientific experiment > is flawed and has no place in the DQ universe. But yes, magic is not science and casting the same spell at different times and places may have subtle to not-so-subtle differences. > I use a modified Initiative system that melds Decide Initiative, > Backstab, Engaged figures, Unengaged figures and Mages Casting into > two so that you end up with Time Out, Decide Initiative, Action.....It > works better for me and the players soon get the hang of it. But no > doubt the Rules Police will hate it. Does this mean I'm not playing > DQ? Well... from a purely technical point of view, yes -- you aren't playing the standard ruleset. However, if the system that you use is superior (which is very, very, possible) then why cannot we get it into general play so that everyone can benefit from it? In the meanwhile however -- and this is definitely a change of heart for me -- I say use what works, provided that players are informed of variant rules before hand -- and hang the Rules Police. > As far as consistancy goes within the campaign world. Sure it would be > nice if the GM's wrote up their material so that the next GM that came > through the same place could perhaps incorporate it. BUT DO YOU REALLY > THINK THIS IS GOING TO HAPPEN? Well, no. But it doesn't hurt to try. If we get nothing we are really no worse off, and if we get some good, reusable resource material then we go some small way towards a better multi-GM enviroment. > For goodness sakes we can't even get the maps to be consistant, how do > you expect the rest of it to be? I'm hopelessly optomistic? :) Actually any maps would be nice. :) > Anyway, enough rambling for now. I hope some or all of you find > something useful in this. Yes. Thank you. Kind Regards, Martin -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Nov 19 18:01:29 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id SAA23449; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 18:01:29 +1300 Received: from bo.nznet.gen.nz (nznet.gen.nz [203.98.34.1]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id SAA23440 ; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 18:01:28 +1300 Received: from takitimu.co.nz (max2-ak39.nznet.gen.nz [203.98.35.104]) by bo.nznet.gen.nz (8.8.7/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA25912 ; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 18:03:14 +1300 Received: from takitimu.co.nz by takitimu.co.nz; Thu, 19 Nov 98 17:47:56 +1300 Message-ID: <3653A369.30241480@takitimu.co.nz> Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 17:50:00 +1300 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Logic and consistancy in DQ (And other matters) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Kelsie To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: kelsie@takitimu.co.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. > >Speaking of maps, Kelsie's map of Seagate is now "out", and it would be > >good if everyone could modify their future descriptions of Seagate to be > >similar to it, to help create some of that hard-to-find consistency. It > >is a compromise of what GMs have said over the ages, and is thus > >different from every individual opinion, but it is a concrete, > >consistent, available resource based on maps of around the right period > >& put together after lots of research, and it is also pretty. > > How do we get hold of it please? Find me. I'll try to give some copies to someone to take to the next god's meeting, but if you need them before that, contact me to arrange something. K -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Nov 19 18:01:42 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id SAA23470; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 18:01:42 +1300 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (root@tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id SAA23461 ; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 18:01:41 +1300 Received: from phaeton.ihug.co.nz (p19-max35.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.105.147]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA09308 ; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 17:49:51 +1300 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19981119174549.007d48d0@pop.ihug.co.nz> X-Sender: phaeton@pop.ihug.co.nz X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 17:45:49 +1300 Subject: Re: Logic and consistancy in DQ (And other matters) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: Keith Smith To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. > I believe that one of the charms of the DQ magic system is its >inconsistancy. How can you believe a system to be consistant that has both >Backfires and Doubles/Triples? (If you amend that Doubles and Triples can >only effect range, duration and damage then many things are possible.) Yes, but what I meant by 'consistancy' in this instance that the same spell, cast in the same place, and, assuming it doesn't backfire, double or triple, will do the same thing ech time eg if Basalic does Hands of Earth then he will get Hands of Earth, not Feet of Earth or something equally outrageous. > Far too much attention is paid to consistancy with spells effects. >People seem to be under the impression that you can write spell >descriptions that will tell everyone how this spell will work in all >circumstances and under whatever conditions. This is of course next to >impossible but people insist that we try and do it anyway. As a GM you are >constantly having to make rulings about the effects of a spell. There is >often no precedence and if there is you are unaware of it (if you even >care). So you make a ruling and get on with the game. If it's REALLY >important then you might propose a rewrite of the spell, but you cannot be >expected to write every such ruling into the rules. That's very true and we can't. It's like trying to get all the bugs out of a computer program. You can get close but there's always one more. The only way that the programs for the Space Shuttle are so bug free is that they go through some very rigorous testing - much more than Windoze does. > If you look at Magic as being this weird, sometimes chaotic stuff that >often allows you to achieve many and sometimes wonderous things, but works >differently from place to place then you approach close to how I belief >Magic should work in DQ. The place to place might be a physical location, a >different GM or a shift in the mana field that you can't detect until you >have cast the spell (this could explain how the same spell cast in the same >place under the same conditions might work differently without a backfire >or Double/Triple). The very idea that magic should behave like an >scientific experiment is flawed and has no place in the DQ universe. Yes, but if magic is too unpredictable then characters will be too afraid to use it not knowing what is going to happen. I've been in places where the spell has worked differently (had treacle instead of water once from a Rainstorm, but what do you expect when you cast somewhere that Chaos has affected), and I have no problems with this. > One of the reasons for my 'reputation' is that I am not afraid to >correct the mistakes (as I see them) of my fellow GM's (not to mention my >own). The way I see it is that there are plenty of poorly thought out items >and abilities being given out willy-nilly and only one or two people >prepared to do anything about them. This is not to say that my vision of >the DQ universe is perfect and should be adhered to by everyone. But I do >have a good grasp of what feels right to me based on nearly 20 years of >playing the game. Besides I have yet to see a GM who plays any magic item >exactly as it is written when it suits them. And these days I'm more >inclined to bring problem items to the attention of the GM who designed >them for 'clarification' rather than ripping them up and scattering them to >the four winds. Apart from being fairer to all concerned, the GM's >concerned may actually learn something. Another aspect of my 'reputation' >is that I do not let the rules get in the way of a good story. Too often >the rules get in the way and break the flow of the game. Be it the >suspension of disbelief or just some stupid thing that's a RULE. Fair enough. There's two things that needs to be remembered as far as I'm concerned: 1) The rules should not interfere with the flow of the story 2) We play this game for enjoyment, both for the players and the GM. >for my games. I guess my message here is that the rules are o.k. to base >the game around but its up to you how much you let them get in the way >before you just ignore or change them. As long as you are fair and >entertaining, players will be happy with just about any punishment you can >dish out at them, rules or no rules. And if they are not happy then I have >to tell me because I can't be expected to be able to read everybodies mind! Agreed - and I did enjoy your game too - and that's the main thing. > depending on the GM's whim at the time, how many of you have crossed >the bridge into Seagate (this was before the current bridge was built), >caught the ferry into Seagate, crossed the ford to Seagate? I imagine most >of you. Were any of them wrong? No of course not. It just means that there >are at least 3 ways across the Sweetwater that you can take from the Guild. But this could be confusing for some players especially if the GM says 'you ford the river' and someone pipes up 'But what happened to the bridge that was there last year?' OK, the bridge could have been washed out or demolished or something. A better example would be a town that straddled a river one session and didn't the next. What happened to the river? Or a lake that is now in the place of a large forest. That can be really disconcerting especially if the same player was there both times. This is what I believe is putting many newer GMs off about doing anything on Alusia, is that they don't know the place as well as their characters should - and, in some cases, are not sure who to ask. >(What ever that was). The best we can hope for at the moment is that the >scribe might record some of the details and that the GM might read the >scribes notes and perhaps incorporate them. For goodness sakes we can't >even get the maps to be consistant, how do you expect the rest of it to be? Agreed. Most of the scribe notes have been scanned and can be searched. The data is there, it just needs to be co-ordinated and used. There seems to be a lack of scribe notes coming in to the library at the moment. The latest ones I have are from the Autumn '98 session which was six months ago. I've seen nothing from the last session apart from the set I did. > Anyway, enough rambling for now. I hope some or all of you find >something useful in this. Yes. Thanks. It was a rather thought-provoking message. Keith (phaeton@ihug.co.nz) -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Nov 19 18:09:17 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id SAA23515; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 18:09:17 +1300 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (root@tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id SAA23505 ; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 18:09:16 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p52-max4.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.97.244]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA25110 ; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 17:57:27 +1300 Message-Id: <199811190457.RAA25110@smtp2.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: Childish Behaviour? Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 17:55:30 +1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. This is a community. A principle of living in communities is that we have some basic and underlying concepts that determine our behaviour. One of the most basic of these principles is that you are allowed to defend yourself, unless there is an agency that is available to protect you. Very few of you people offer public support when I'm attacked in this way, although you expect it not to happen. I recieve private emails offering support, but very few of you are actually prepared to do anything more than take the apparent moral high ground, and excercise finger waving. I do not start these personal attacks. I see no reason why I should have to suffer them, in the face of a community to cowardly to offer public outrage when they see such behaviour. I am allowed to defend myself and my reputation, particularly if you won't do anything to offer such a defence for me. Jim. ---------- > From: Mandos Mitchinson > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Subject: Childish Behaviour? > Date: Thursday, November 19, 1998 11:14 AM > > > >You Jim are the most revolting piece of trash I've ever had the misfortune > >to interact with. I presume you are the product of child abuse and this > >persona you manefest is the best your counselors could achieve. It is > >sad and pathetic that you can find no other way to interact with > >humanity than abuse and conflict. I guess pity is the only reasonable > >response, but I never claimed to be reasonable. > > > Is it time for a new list > dq.bash.other.players.in.a.childish.fashion@dq.sf.org.nz ? > > We can pop Bart and Jim in there until they cool down. > > On the other hand we could all just try and be more reasonable and think > more before we write. > > Mandos > > > > -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- -- See message headers to unsubscribe from --