From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Feb 10 00:04:00 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id AAA32020; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 00:04:00 +1300 Received: from smtp.worley.co.nz (fwuser@fw.worley.co.nz [202.135.112.130]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id AAA32012 ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 00:03:48 +1300 Received: by smtp.worley.co.nz(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.1 (569.2 2-6-1998)) id 4C256714.0003FCB5 ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 12:43:33 +1200 X-Lotus-FromDomain: WORLEY CONSULTANTS Message-ID: <4C256714.0003C971.00@smtp.worley.co.nz> Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 12:42:59 +1200 Subject: RE: DQ - Spell Prices Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline From: amtennant@worley.co.nz To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. I'd just like to point out onemajor problem wih trying to rationalise spell prices. Trying to limit stuff in DQ via money is completely pointelss. There's too much of it. The only two ways to limit characters are Time and EP. ( even loss of body parts won't stop some characters ) L8R, Adam. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Feb 10 01:50:31 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id BAA32142; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 01:50:31 +1300 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id BAA32134 ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 01:50:29 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p11-max39.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.228.139]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA04294 ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 14:30:00 +1300 Message-Id: <199902100130.OAA04294@smtp1.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: DQ - Spell Prices Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 14:26:44 +1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. ---------- > From: amtennant@worley.co.nz > > Trying to limit stuff in DQ via money is completely pointelss. There's too > much of it. > > The only two ways to limit characters are Time and EP. > ( even loss of body parts won't stop some characters ) > If you make something expensive, it observably slows people down. Sure, some people get a break early on and manage to get a fair whack of cash to play around with. If, however, you made spells cheaper, you wouldn't have done anything in particular to impede the acquisition of spells. Unless you are saying that spells should cost EP to learn, and possibly body parts, then high costs for powerful spells seems reasonable. I don't think I'd bother with a formula, though. Most of the costs seem reasonable enough. E&E, on the other hand, could do with a serious increase in the amount they pay for their spells. Jim -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Feb 10 02:09:02 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id CAA32176; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 02:09:02 +1300 Received: from peace.com (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id CAA32168 ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 02:08:59 +1300 Received: via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/pcnz2.7) id OAA21691; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 14:48:31 +1300 Message-ID: <36C0E7C2.7C7C7096@peace.com> Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 14:58:26 +1300 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: DQ - Spell Prices Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------3C47E79AA3B32C7DBB8BEF9C" From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------3C47E79AA3B32C7DBB8BEF9C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim Arona wrote: > Unless you are saying that spells should cost EP to learn, and possibly > body parts... It is a tad odd that Special Knowledge spells _don't_ cost EP to learn... weapons and skills cost EP to get the pitiful abilities of Rank 0, why shouldn't spells? Rank 0 for weapons and skills costs what?... 2 to 3 times the Rank 1 value? So for spells that would be 2-3 times EM... hmmmm.... not very much... 250 EM spell (pretty standard) = 500-750 EP.... I think that I could be tempted towards a nice easy x10. :) Though Adam's suggestion of body parts is also good.... GM: "Well, in order to learn Investment, it'll cost you 3,000 EP, and the Guild are going to charge you 100,000 silver pieces and remove your spleen"... Cheers, Martin --------------3C47E79AA3B32C7DBB8BEF9C Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="martin.dickson.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Martin Dickson Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="martin.dickson.vcf" begin:vcard n:Dickson;Martin tel;fax:+64-9-373 0401 tel;work:+64-9-373 0400 x-mozilla-html:FALSE org:Peace Software International;Software Development version:2.1 email;internet:martin.dickson@peace.com title:Team Leader adr;quoted-printable:;;Peace Tower =0D=0ASt. Martins Lane;Auckland;;;New Zealand fn:Martin Dickson end:vcard --------------3C47E79AA3B32C7DBB8BEF9C-- -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Feb 10 02:57:36 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id CAA32236; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 02:57:36 +1300 Received: from mail.iconz.co.nz (oldmail.iconz.co.nz [202.14.100.36]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id CAA32228 ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 02:57:35 +1300 Received: from mandos (e0.firewall.ak.iconz.net.nz [202.14.100.208]) by mail.iconz.co.nz (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id PAA033050918614220 ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 15:37:00 +1300 (NZDT) Message-ID: <00d401be549d$fd6dc220$0d64a8c0@mandos.iconz> Subject: Re: DQ - Spell Prices Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 15:35:14 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 From: "Mandos Mitchinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >It is a tad odd that Special Knowledge spells _don't_ cost EP to learn... >weapons and skills cost EP to get the pitiful abilities of Rank 0, why >shouldn't spells? I think an EP cost is an excellent Idea. It also allows us to stop low level players from gaining high level spells and abilities quickly even if they do gain the cash. Mandos /s -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Feb 10 03:18:45 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id DAA32314; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 03:18:45 +1300 Received: from gate.datacom.co.nz (gate.datacom.co.nz [202.27.76.67]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id DAA32306 ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 03:18:41 +1300 Received: from dslak3.dslak.co.nz ([192.203.216.7]) by gate.datacom.co.nz (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id PAA21874 ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 15:58:07 +1300 (NZDT) Received: by dslak3.dslak.co.nz with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.996.62) id <01BE550D.FB1A6760@dslak3.dslak.co.nz>; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 03:56:54 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: RE: DQ - Spell Prices Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 03:56:32 +0100 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.996.62 From: "David Hall (DSLAK)" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >>It is a tad odd that Special Knowledge spells _don't_ cost EP to learn... >>weapons and skills cost EP to get the pitiful abilities of Rank 0, why >>shouldn't spells? >I think an EP cost is an excellent Idea. It also allows us to stop low level >players from gaining high level spells and abilities quickly even if they do >gain the cash. If spell prices (and the EP cost addition) are meant to stop low level characters gaining high level abilities too quickly (a concept which I agree with - lows are too powerful IMHO) - Then perhaps an even higher EP multiple than Martin's suggested *10 should be considered. At a *10, even the most evil spells available only comes to around 5000, which most characters will be able to pay after one adventure. It could come to as much as two thirds of a games EP, but that still isn't completely prohibitive. Also - there are some spells which I think low level characters should be able to buy easily from the colleges special list (Trollskins perhaps, as a hasty example) - so maybe some sort of purchase EP cost list, similar to the weapons list. David Hall/Daroin -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Feb 10 03:38:55 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id DAA32356; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 03:38:55 +1300 Received: from letterbox.cs.auckland.ac.nz (letterbox.cs.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.35.1]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id DAA32348 ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 03:38:54 +1300 Received: from andrewlpc (andrew-l-pc.cs.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.34.146]) by letterbox.cs.auckland.ac.nz (8.8.6/8.8.6/cs-master) with SMTP id QAA14055 ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 16:18:23 +1300 (sender andrew-l@cs.auckland.ac.nz) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990210162228.009364e0@staffpop.cs.auckland.ac.nz> X-Sender: andrew-l@staffpop.cs.auckland.ac.nz X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 16:22:28 +1300 Subject: Re: DQ - Spell Prices Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: Andrew Luxton To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >I think an EP cost is an excellent Idea. It also allows us to stop low level >players from gaining high level spells and abilities quickly even if they do >gain the cash. I don't think that an EP cost will slow low-level characters down much unless the cost is huge. All low-level character will have around 30,000 EP after a couple of adventures, so paying 3000 for a powerful spell is quite a small amount, especially compared to the cost of ranking said spell until it is useful. If a straight cost is used, EP is better than SP, since the controls are greater and you can't borrow EP to buy a spell. We should just change the current SP costs to EP. Hmmm 100,000 EP to learn investment - sounds reasonable to me! Increasing SP cost will slow people from getting *all* the spells (or even a large range of them), but they will still be able to get hold of the powerful ones (or the ones they really want). If we want to prevent low-level characters from getting too many powerful spells, but not cripple the medium-high range with unreasonable costs, then we need a reducing scale or some other mechanism which is targetted at characters with few adventures. Something like: 1. A prerequisite structure, where X spell requires Y to be ranked to 6 before X can be learned (or X spell requires Y number of Generals to be at 6 before it can be learned). 2. Have an EP cost which starts outrageously high, but drops the more adventures you have had. This means the more adventuring you have done (and the more magic exposed to) the easier it is to learn spells. Something like: EM*(100 - number_of_adventures*5). 3. Base it on perception. Spells cannot be learned without PC above X 4. etc. Andrew ------------------------------------------------------------------- Andrew Luxton andrew-l@cs.auckland.ac.nz Department of Computer Science http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz University of Auckland Phone: +64 9 3737 599 x5654 Private Bag 92019, Auckland, NZ Fax: +64 9 3737 453 -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Feb 10 03:45:22 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id DAA32391; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 03:45:22 +1300 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id DAA32383 ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 03:45:20 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p54-max3.akl.ihug.co.nz [207.213.218.182]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA17456 ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 16:24:49 +1300 Message-Id: <199902100324.QAA17456@smtp1.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: DQ - Spell Prices Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 16:21:33 +1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. ---------- > From: Martin Dickson > > Rank 0 for weapons and skills costs what?... 2 to 3 times the Rank 1 value? > So for spells that would be 2-3 times EM... hmmmm.... not very much... 250 EM > spell (pretty standard) = 500-750 EP.... > > I think that I could be tempted towards a nice easy x10. :) Though Adam's > suggestion of body parts is also good.... George wrote: I think an EP cost is an excellent Idea. It also allows us to stop low level players from gaining high level spells and abilities quickly even if they do gain the cash. David Hall wrote: If spell prices (and the EP cost addition) are meant to stop low level characters gaining high level abilities too quickly (a concept which I agree with - lows are too powerful IMHO) - Then perhaps an even higher EP multiple than Martin's suggested *10 should be considered. At a *10, even the most evil spells available only comes to around 5000, which most characters will be able to pay after one adventure. It could come to as much as two thirds of a games EP, but that still isn't completely prohibitive ****************************************************************** I don't see that the game would change much for requiring an EP cost to learn a spell to Rank 0, whatever that cost would be. I don't know that it would be a good idea, or in fact if it would be a bad idea. I just don't see it altering the nature of the game. One has to consider what would usefully be achieved by making new spells cost ep. The argument for it, so far, at any rate, is that an ep cost for new spells will impede the development of low level players, who are learning spells out of their level of play. However, a player who wants tough spells is going to pay that cost, anyway. And, now, as a result of trying to heal a percieved wound, you've healed the healthy. Because this rule would apply to a character whose development matches your view of what is appropriate. Perhaps what we ought to do is stop worrying too much about characters who have developed too fast. It is a problem that solves itself, if left on its own. Players naturally start to spread their development across a wider front when they become bored with a single nasty spell. Jim. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Feb 10 03:52:30 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id DAA32415; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 03:52:30 +1300 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id DAA32407 ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 03:52:29 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p54-max3.akl.ihug.co.nz [207.213.218.182]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA18747 ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 16:31:55 +1300 Message-Id: <199902100331.QAA18747@smtp1.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: DQ - Spell Prices Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 16:28:43 +1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. ---------- > From: Andrew Luxton > Something like: > 1. A prerequisite structure, where X spell requires Y to be ranked to 6 > before X can be learned (or X spell requires Y number of Generals to be at > 6 before it can be learned). This is kind of cool, except for those colleges that don't have many General Knowledge spells and rituals. > 2. Have an EP cost which starts outrageously high, but drops the more > adventures you have had. This means the more adventuring you have done > (and the more magic exposed to) the easier it is to learn spells. > Something like: EM*(100 - number_of_adventures*5). Which is also kind of cool, except if you go on Hobbit picnics, a lot. > 3. Base it on perception. Spells cannot be learned without PC above X Which is also kind of cool, except if you go on Hobbit picnics, a lot. Jim. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Feb 10 03:56:49 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id DAA32451; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 03:56:49 +1300 Received: from fep1-orange.clear.net.nz (fep1-orange.clear.net.nz [203.97.32.1]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id DAA32441 ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 03:56:47 +1300 Received: from qed_akl_nt_1.qed.co.nz ([203.97.23.141]) by fep1-orange.clear.net.nz (1.5/1.11) with ESMTP id QAA25462; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 16:35:43 +1300 (NZDT) Received: by qed_akl_nt_1.qed.co.nz with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) id <1SF5GCR0>; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 16:35:25 +1300 Message-ID: <15A7D8BC5E3ED2119E2E0000F82150FC0B8579@qed_akl_nt_1.qed.co.nz> Subject: RE: DQ - Spell Prices Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 16:35:23 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain From: Stephen Martin To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. I generally agree with Andrew's points. And one option that springs to mind is to set down some arbitrary guild laws. Statement: "The guild will not teach or condone the teaching of certain dangerous magics to insufficiently experienced guild members." Then each SK spell is given a rating as to when it can be learned. Based on number of adventures, ranks in spells/rituals, EP spent on magic, or some such. Cheers, Stephen. > -----Original Message----- > From: Andrew Luxton [SMTP:andrew-l@cs.auckland.ac.nz] > Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 4:22 PM > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Subject: Re: DQ - Spell Prices > > > >I think an EP cost is an excellent Idea. It also allows us to stop > low level > >players from gaining high level spells and abilities quickly even if > they do > >gain the cash. > > I don't think that an EP cost will slow low-level characters down much > unless the cost is huge. All low-level character will have around > 30,000 > EP after a couple of adventures, so paying 3000 for a powerful spell > is > quite a small amount, especially compared to the cost of ranking said > spell > until it is useful. If a straight cost is used, EP is better than SP, > since the controls are greater and you can't borrow EP to buy a spell. > We > should just change the current SP costs to EP. Hmmm 100,000 EP to > learn > investment - sounds reasonable to me! > > Increasing SP cost will slow people from getting *all* the spells (or > even > a large range of them), but they will still be able to get hold of the > powerful ones (or the ones they really want). > > If we want to prevent low-level characters from getting too many > powerful > spells, but not cripple the medium-high range with unreasonable costs, > then > we need a reducing scale or some other mechanism which is targetted at > characters with few adventures. > > Something like: > 1. A prerequisite structure, where X spell requires Y to be ranked to > 6 > before X can be learned (or X spell requires Y number of Generals to > be at > 6 before it can be learned). > 2. Have an EP cost which starts outrageously high, but drops the more > adventures you have had. This means the more adventuring you have > done > (and the more magic exposed to) the easier it is to learn spells. > Something like: EM*(100 - number_of_adventures*5). > 3. Base it on perception. Spells cannot be learned without PC above > X > 4. etc. > > > Andrew > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Andrew Luxton andrew-l@cs.auckland.ac.nz > Department of Computer Science http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz > University of Auckland Phone: +64 9 3737 599 x5654 > Private Bag 92019, Auckland, NZ Fax: +64 9 3737 453 > > > > -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Feb 10 04:01:57 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id EAA32487; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 04:01:57 +1300 Received: from fep1-orange.clear.net.nz (fep1-orange.clear.net.nz [203.97.32.1]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id EAA32479 ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 04:01:54 +1300 Received: from qed_akl_nt_1.qed.co.nz ([203.97.23.141]) by fep1-orange.clear.net.nz (1.5/1.11) with ESMTP id QAA27329; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 16:40:53 +1300 (NZDT) Received: by qed_akl_nt_1.qed.co.nz with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) id <1SF5GCSD>; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 16:40:35 +1300 Message-ID: <15A7D8BC5E3ED2119E2E0000F82150FC0B857A@qed_akl_nt_1.qed.co.nz> Subject: RE: DQ - Spell Prices Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 16:40:35 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain From: Stephen Martin To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Except that characters who go for spells beyond their level are usully completely different from those who frequent "Hobbit Picnics". Basing it on perception does have the problem that elves can learn powerful magics sooner. However that does fit their image and gives everyone else another reason to hate them :) > -----Original Message----- > From: Jim Arona [SMTP:jimarona@ihug.co.nz] > Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 4:29 PM > > ---------- > > From: Andrew Luxton > > 2. Have an EP cost which starts outrageously high, but drops the > more > > adventures you have had. This means the more adventuring you have > done > > (and the more magic exposed to) the easier it is to learn spells. > > Something like: EM*(100 - number_of_adventures*5). > > Which is also kind of cool, except if you go on Hobbit picnics, a lot. > > > > 3. Base it on perception. Spells cannot be learned without PC > above X > > Which is also kind of cool, except if you go on Hobbit picnics, a lot. > > Jim. > -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Feb 10 04:14:32 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id EAA32524; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 04:14:32 +1300 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id EAA32516 ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 04:14:30 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p306-tnt1.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.232.52]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA11595 ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 16:53:59 +1300 Message-Id: <199902100353.QAA11595@smtp2.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: DQ - Spell Prices Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 16:50:47 +1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. ---------- > From: Stephen Martin > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Subject: RE: DQ - Spell Prices > Date: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 4:40 PM > > > Except that characters who go for spells beyond their level are usully > completely different from those who frequent "Hobbit Picnics". > > Basing it on perception does have the problem that elves can learn > powerful magics sooner. However that does fit their image and gives > everyone else another reason to hate them :) Frankly, I've had a gutsful of elves. Let's just get rid of the race. Jim. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Feb 10 04:24:15 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id EAA32555; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 04:24:15 +1300 Received: from fclaklmr01.fcl.co.nz ([203.98.14.148] (may be forged)) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id EAA32547 ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 04:24:13 +1300 Received: from falaklnt000.falum.co.nz ([10.8.1.20]) by fclaklmr01.fcl.co.nz (Post.Office MTA v3.5.1 release 219 ID# 0-0U10L2S100) with SMTP id nz ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 17:02:24 +1300 Received: by falaklnt000.falum.co.nz with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.996.62) id <01BE5517.C52AAE30@falaklnt000.falum.co.nz>; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 05:06:59 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: RE: DQ - Spell Prices Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 05:06:28 +0100 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.996.62 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Andrew Withy (FAL AKL)" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. I've read every e-mail on this subject (I think), and I still don't get the point. Is the problem that low level characters are getting hold of tough spells? Low characters get nearly as much EP as medium's per adventure, but not nearly as much money. Money is a better differentiator than EP, unless you want character to save for YEARS for a spell. PC is an even better differentator, but a starting non-mage with MA 18 can have necrosis (say) after two adventures - 6500 for the college, and they already have PC 14. People who try to push for a fast start to their characters will be tempted to start as a non-mage so they can learn magic faster. This is stupid. Is the problem that people are specialising too much at low levels? Apart from this being a valid style of character development, putting bigger hurdles in front of characters to learn specials will help specialisation, not generalisation Is the problem that people don't like young whippersnappers who are as good as them now? The best fix to that is to lower EP given out - this differentiates on # adventures played more. I am confused as to why we should change from SP to EP/PC, Andrew -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Feb 10 04:24:39 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id EAA32576; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 04:24:39 +1300 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id EAA32568 ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 04:24:38 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p30-max38.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.228.94]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA12956 ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 17:04:06 +1300 Message-Id: <199902100404.RAA12956@smtp2.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: DQ - Spell Prices Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 17:00:53 +1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. ---------- > From: Stephen Martin > I generally agree with Andrew's points. And one option that springs to > mind is to set down some arbitrary guild laws. > Statement: "The guild will not teach or condone the teaching of certain > dangerous magics to insufficiently experienced guild members." > Then each SK spell is given a rating as to when it can be learned. > Based on number of adventures, ranks in spells/rituals, EP spent on > magic, or some such. Or we could just not bother. After all, it hasn't been a problem in the past, and changing it now is likely to cause some. If only because it is a method of progression that the players who are suggesting it aren't likely to have to suffer it. I think this is a case of trying to fix something that isn't broken. Jim. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Feb 10 04:35:43 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id EAA32623; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 04:35:43 +1300 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id EAA32615 ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 04:35:42 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p30-max38.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.228.94]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA14208 ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 17:15:10 +1300 Message-Id: <199902100415.RAA14208@smtp2.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: DQ - Spell Prices Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 17:11:59 +1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. ---------- > From: Andrew Withy (FAL AKL) ? > Low characters get nearly as much EP as medium's per adventure, but > not nearly as much money. That is because the major amount of ep that is given out is for Attendance, Roleplaying and Contributions. Danger is usually less than half the award for a night's playing. If the Danger part of the equation was changed from a straight add into a factor, then it would have a better effect. Danger awards don't differentiate the ep players should get enough. After all, a player who pulls in 800 ep for Roleplaying and Contributions is doing pretty well, and a player who pulls in 400 ep is playing under the average. But if the danger award is 800, then the good player will earn 2,100 per night, and the poor player will earn 1,700. over 12 games, the difference in ep will be 4,800 or about 20% of the total. That may seem about right, but as the danger award moves away from the average, the percentage of the total award increases or diminishes. Unless the belief is that a low level game is a more roleplaying environment and a god-bothering game is less of one, then this situation is insane. Jim. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Feb 10 04:55:40 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id EAA32688; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 04:55:40 +1300 Received: from peace.com (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id EAA32680 ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 04:55:39 +1300 Received: via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/pcnz2.7) id RAA01886; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 17:35:07 +1300 Orig-Sender: Michael.Woodhams@peace.com Message-ID: <36C10C7B.C9E44676@peace.co.nz> Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 17:35:07 +1300 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05C-SGI [en] (X11; I; IRIX 6.5 IP32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: DQ - Spell Prices Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Michael Woodhams To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: Michael.Woodhams@peace.com X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Andrew Withy (FAL AKL) wrote: > I've read every e-mail on this subject (I think), and I still don't > get the point. > > Is the problem that low level characters are getting hold of tough > spells? etc. I agree with Andrew W and Jim on this - it isn't much broken, and doesn't need to be fixed. It does fit better with the internal logic of the game to charge EP for rank zero - everything else charges for rank zero (except adventuring skills, which you are apparently born with.) However, I don't think this is sufficient reason for making a change. (If we didn't already have umpteen characters in various stages of development, I would say yes to the change.) Michael W -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Feb 10 20:49:28 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id UAA00650; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 20:49:28 +1300 Received: from peace.com (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id UAA00642 ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 20:49:25 +1300 Received: via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/pcnz2.7) id JAA23870; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 09:28:23 +1300 Message-ID: <36C1EE3D.6C23A4D9@peace.com> Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 09:38:21 +1300 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: DQ - Spell Prices Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------64F159DB70B2D715A3804BEF" From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------64F159DB70B2D715A3804BEF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim Arona wrote: > > From: Andrew Withy (FAL AKL) > ? > > Low characters get nearly as much EP as medium's per adventure, but > > not nearly as much money. > > That is because the major amount of ep that is given out is for Attendance, > Roleplaying and Contributions. Danger is usually less than half the award > for a night's playing. [snip] > Unless the belief is that a low level game is a more roleplaying > environment and a god-bothering game is less of one, then this situation is > insane. Hi Jim, Oh dear. At the risk of wandering into holy war territory -- the question (as you suggested at the end) is "What are we rewarding?". Which tends to then lead inevitably into "What is roleplaying?"... and it is usually around that point that weapons get drawn. :) One the one hand we have the "Roleplaying Left" (connextions with "wet" and "liberal" may be left to the imagination of the reader)... who say that Roleplaying is all, and that its essence is character interaction, negotiation, introspection and discovery (and in the case of one RPG, dressing in a lot of black). Modern exponents of this faction include all of the White Wolf line, and given their popularity (compared with a certain more traditional RPG) one could argue that there is support for this stand from the proleteriat. A more ancient example (and certainly my first exposure to it) was Chivalry & Sorcery, a game which rewarded characters for doing what they were supposed to -- clerics got ep for illuminating scrolls, alchemists for studying the metals and humours in their laboratories. Just a bundle of laughs. :) At the other end of the spectrum we have the "Gaming Right", who like to point out that "RPG" is a three letter acronym, and that the third just might have something to do with gaming, and thus with competitive achievment. Certainly in a wargaming tournament points might be awarded for how nicely ones army is painted or how much of a good sport a chap is -- but at the end of the day, the prize goes to the winner. This school tends to argue for the notion of "get in, kill the dragon and get out with the loot". The faction have always had the backing of the patriarch of the RPG industry, with experience being calculated on how big the dragon was, and how much loot it was sitting on. (And I still have at home AD&D tournament modules with instruction to the DM like "+3 points if the party puts invisibility on the halfling before opening the secret door"). :) A certain amount of friction exists between the two groups with defamatory calls going back a forth... comments such as "Poser", "Number Cruncher", "Angst ridden Goth", "Hack and Slasher", and so on. At the further risk of standing squarely between the two extremes, I can say that I have found most enjoyable games have had enough of a goal to keep players focused; enough danger to spice it up; but also enough space allow for some quiet discussion and character "personal development". Games played at the god-bothering end of the spectrum may lack roleplaying and revolve around calculating base chances and damage and saying "I'll whack him again and then drink 3 healing potions". Games played at the low-bunny end may lack danger and conflict and achievable goals. One should perhaps note, that one area where traditional RPGs are losing their market and players is to multi-player WWW "adventure" games, or other computer games played by a group. These offer an interesting alternative to the high-conflict, low-character-interaction end of the RPG spectrum, with all of the dreary number calculation hidden from you... and with nice graphics. :) If RPGs are to survive they need to fulfill a niche that computer games cannot. Character interaction and personal exploration and the like are areas which the computer games cannot yet adequately service -- perhaps another factor in White Wolf's rise and TSR's slump. The question becomes -- what do we want for our campaign? As you said, is the system insane, or do we want to reward roleplaying over gaming? To conclude with one less waffly bit, if we wished to put more emphasis on the danger level, one area that could be considered for change is the attendance award. We give 500 points out for turning up? Why? We reward turning up as much as excellend roleplaying. Perhaps this needs to be considered. This award could be reduced or removed and its points redistributed to alter the RP vs G balance without greatly affecting the total number of EP granted per session. Regards, Martin --- [Note for the humour impaired: The above paragraphs -- save the last, almost practical suggestion -- were written in a whimsical/cynical tone. If you find your self unhappy in any way after reading them, please adjust your spleen controls and re-read. Thank you] :) :) --- --------------64F159DB70B2D715A3804BEF Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="martin.dickson.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Martin Dickson Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="martin.dickson.vcf" begin:vcard n:Dickson;Martin tel;fax:+64-9-373 0401 tel;work:+64-9-373 0400 x-mozilla-html:FALSE org:Peace Software International;Software Development version:2.1 email;internet:martin.dickson@peace.com title:Team Leader adr;quoted-printable:;;Peace Tower =0D=0ASt. Martins Lane;Auckland;;;New Zealand fn:Martin Dickson end:vcard --------------64F159DB70B2D715A3804BEF-- -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Feb 10 21:12:27 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id VAA00702; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 21:12:27 +1300 Received: from letterbox.cs.auckland.ac.nz (letterbox.cs.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.35.1]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id VAA00693 ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 21:12:26 +1300 Received: from andrewlpc (andrew-l-pc.cs.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.34.146]) by letterbox.cs.auckland.ac.nz (8.8.6/8.8.6/cs-master) with SMTP id JAA22551 ; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 09:51:31 +1300 (sender andrew-l@cs.auckland.ac.nz) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990211095538.0090ce10@staffpop.cs.auckland.ac.nz> X-Sender: andrew-l@staffpop.cs.auckland.ac.nz X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 09:55:38 +1300 Subject: Re: DQ - Spell Prices Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: Andrew Luxton To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. I think Jim's point may have been misunderstood. I think his main point is that on low-level games, the role-playing award forms a higher *proportion* of the total than on high-level games. The difference between a good and poor player is around 4000 EP (from role-playing/contribution). This means on a low game the difference is a significant portion of the total (maybe 25-30%). On a high game, the difference is the same, but overall EP is higher, so the role-playing forms a lower proportion (10-15%). I infer from this that role-playing matters less on high-level games.... or so the system would suggest. Jim's suggestion is not a bad one. Using danger level as a multiplier rather than an addition would keep the same proportions based on the things that we should be rewarding. e.g. Low-Level uses multiplier of 1.0 Medium uses multiplier of 1.5 High uses multiplier of 2.0 God-Bothering uses multiplier of X (where X doesn't matter because no-one comes back :) Andrew ------------------------------------------------------------------- Andrew Luxton andrew-l@cs.auckland.ac.nz Department of Computer Science http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz University of Auckland Phone: +64 9 3737 599 x5654 Private Bag 92019, Auckland, NZ Fax: +64 9 3737 453 -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Feb 10 21:16:59 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id VAA00732; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 21:16:59 +1300 Received: from fep2-orange.clear.net.nz (fep2-orange.clear.net.nz [203.97.32.2]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id VAA00724 ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 21:16:58 +1300 Received: from qed_akl_nt_1.qed.co.nz ([203.97.23.141]) by fep2-orange.clear.net.nz (1.5/1.9) with ESMTP id JAA07742; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 09:55:31 +1300 (NZDT) Received: by qed_akl_nt_1.qed.co.nz with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) id <1SF5GCW6>; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 09:55:09 +1300 Message-ID: <15A7D8BC5E3ED2119E2E0000F82150FC0B857D@qed_akl_nt_1.qed.co.nz> Subject: RE: DQ - EP Awards Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 09:55:08 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain From: Stephen Martin To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Naturally every point has its counter argument... When GMing or playing I find it annoying and sometimes disruptive when people turn up late or unprepared. Usually its unavoidable due to work or other personal commitments and that's fine. But I like the fact that there is a significant chunk of EP as a reward for the player who turns up on time and fully prepared. The thing to remember is that it's not automatic, and should only be fully awarded to those that are prepared and are on time (or have made arrangements to avoid disrupting the game). I think that the three base areas for awards are fine Turning up on time and prepared - great. Contributing to party & GM enjoyment - definitely to be encouraged. Characterisation and consistency - the "pure" role-playing section and the most subject to interpretation and bias. Sometime very easy to award other times hard to judge whether they've done badly or just differently. The level award is a simple one at the moment but not necessarily the best. I don't regard it as broken but it could be improved. Changing it to be a multiplier appeals probably as a range from 1 - 2x. Cheers, Stephen. > -----Original Message----- > From: Martin Dickson [SMTP:martin.dickson@peace.com] > Sent: Thursday, February 11, 1999 9:38 AM > > To conclude with one less waffly bit, if we wished to put more > emphasis on the > danger level, one area that could be considered for change is the > attendance > award. We give 500 points out for turning up? Why? We reward > turning up as > much as excellend roleplaying. Perhaps this needs to be considered. > This > award could be reduced or removed and its points redistributed to > alter the RP > vs G balance without greatly affecting the total number of EP granted > per > session. > > Regards, > Martin > > -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Feb 10 21:18:57 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id VAA00758; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 21:18:57 +1300 Received: from fclaklmr01.fcl.co.nz ([203.98.14.148] (may be forged)) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id VAA00750 ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 21:18:55 +1300 Received: from falaklnt000.falum.co.nz ([10.8.1.20]) by fclaklmr01.fcl.co.nz (Post.Office MTA v3.5.1 release 219 ID# 0-0U10L2S100) with SMTP id nz ; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 09:57:32 +1300 Received: by falaklnt000.falum.co.nz with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.996.62) id <01BE55A5.7BCA1A80@falaklnt000.falum.co.nz>; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 22:01:24 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: RE: DQ - Spell Prices Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 22:01:11 +0100 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.996.62 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Andrew Withy (FAL AKL)" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. I believe that some GMs use a similar system currently: EP = (attendance+roleplaying+contribution) * (1+danger/1000) This is the same EP for average roleplayers (attendance+roleplaying+contribution ~=~1000), and stretches the range for good/bad roleplayers at high levels. We could change to this system if we want. Andrew W ---------- From: Andrew Luxton [SMTP:andrew-l@cs.auckland.ac.nz] Sent: Thursday, 11 February 1999 8:56 To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Subject: Re: DQ - Spell Prices I think Jim's point may have been misunderstood. I think his main point is that on low-level games, the role-playing award forms a higher *proportion* of the total than on high-level games. The difference between a good and poor player is around 4000 EP (from role-playing/contribution). This means on a low game the difference is a significant portion of the total (maybe 25-30%). On a high game, the difference is the same, but overall EP is higher, so the role-playing forms a lower proportion (10-15%). I infer from this that role-playing matters less on high-level games.... or so the system would suggest. Jim's suggestion is not a bad one. Using danger level as a multiplier rather than an addition would keep the same proportions based on the things that we should be rewarding. e.g. Low-Level uses multiplier of 1.0 Medium uses multiplier of 1.5 High uses multiplier of 2.0 God-Bothering uses multiplier of X (where X doesn't matter because no-one comes back :) Andrew ------------------------------------------------------------------- Andrew Luxton andrew-l@cs.auckland.ac.nz Department of Computer Science http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz University of Auckland Phone: +64 9 3737 599 x5654 Private Bag 92019, Auckland, NZ Fax: +64 9 3737 453 -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Feb 10 21:40:28 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id VAA00803; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 21:40:28 +1300 Received: from peace.com (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id VAA00795 ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 21:40:24 +1300 Received: via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/pcnz2.7) id KAA27092; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 10:19:26 +1300 Message-ID: <36C1FA35.5560DF98@peace.com> Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 10:29:25 +1300 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: DQ - Spell Prices Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------76B41BC8F74F1F645A7136C9" From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------76B41BC8F74F1F645A7136C9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Andrew Luxton wrote: > I think Jim's point may have been misunderstood. > > I think his main point is that on low-level games, the role-playing award > forms a higher *proportion* of the total than on high-level games. > > The difference between a good and poor player is around 4000 EP (from > role-playing/contribution). > > This means on a low game the difference is a significant portion of the > total (maybe 25-30%). On a high game, the difference is the same, but > overall EP is higher, so the role-playing forms a lower proportion (10-15%). > > I infer from this that role-playing matters less on high-level games.... or > so the system would suggest. Hi Andrew, If you are right about this, then one could just as well argue that it is both logical and fair to make roleplaying a smaller proportion of the total at high levels. Bearing in mind that what we are refering to here are the GM set "danger levels" for the adventure, not a comment on the relative power of the characters on the mission. I may advetise a "medium" mission and even if I choose to allow "god-bothering" level characters on it, they will still only recieve a danger award of "medium". In truly high level games "pure" roleplaying tends to take a secondary role as the bad guys attack you in waves armed with big bits of sharp metal and all sorts of fireworks. It might be possbile to run a truly high danger level game with little combat -- the super-Machiavellian politics of certain eastern relams springs to mind; where one wrong word could see you executed -- but they are certainly not the norm. If roleplaying forms a lesser part of high level games then it seems only fair that it should be a lesser portion of the reward -- or looking at it another way, denying the players the chance to roleplay at high levels has a proportionally lesser effect on their reward. If an exceptional player should rise above this and roleplay to the hilt even in the midst of dice rolls and base chances and calculation, then grant them a discretionary bonus. Cheers, Martin --------------76B41BC8F74F1F645A7136C9 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="martin.dickson.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Martin Dickson Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="martin.dickson.vcf" begin:vcard n:Dickson;Martin tel;fax:+64-9-373 0401 tel;work:+64-9-373 0400 x-mozilla-html:FALSE org:Peace Software International;Software Development version:2.1 email;internet:martin.dickson@peace.com title:Team Leader adr;quoted-printable:;;Peace Tower =0D=0ASt. Martins Lane;Auckland;;;New Zealand fn:Martin Dickson end:vcard --------------76B41BC8F74F1F645A7136C9-- -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Feb 10 22:06:01 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id WAA00860; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 22:06:01 +1300 Received: from fclaklmr01.fcl.co.nz ([203.98.14.148] (may be forged)) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id WAA00852 ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 22:05:59 +1300 Received: from falaklnt000.falum.co.nz ([10.8.1.20]) by fclaklmr01.fcl.co.nz (Post.Office MTA v3.5.1 release 219 ID# 0-0U10L2S100) with SMTP id nz ; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 10:44:35 +1300 Received: by falaklnt000.falum.co.nz with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.996.62) id <01BE55AC.0F3EEAB0@falaklnt000.falum.co.nz>; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 22:48:29 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: RE: DQ - Spell Prices Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 22:48:27 +0100 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.996.62 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Andrew Withy (FAL AKL)" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. However, Contribution forms a larger part at high-level - if you don't pull your weight, or if you screw up, everyone dies. While on hobbit picnics I guess that letting the ants into the jam doughnuts isn't as catastrophic, though it may seem so at the time. Perhaps GMs could spread the 0-1000, average 500ep between contribution and roleplaying as they see fit, and maybe this means that a hobbit picnic is 0-800 roleplaying, 0-200 contribution, and a high level game is 0-800 contribution, 0-200 roleplaying, based on the GM's whim and how the game pans out. For instance, most of Michael Parkinson's adventures involve a great deal of scheming, lying, poetry and buttering up dagos and wops, in between ambushes of psychopathic nutters. He might decide that his planned High level adventure still deserves to be 500//500, rather than 250//750 towards contribution. Not convinced, but thinking. Andrew ---------- From: Martin Dickson [SMTP:martin.dickson@peace.com] If you are right about this, then one could just as well argue that it is both logical and fair to make roleplaying a smaller proportion of the total at high levels. If roleplaying forms a lesser part of high level games then it seems only fair that it should be a lesser portion of the reward. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Feb 10 22:05:43 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id WAA00841; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 22:05:43 +1300 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id WAA00833 ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 22:05:41 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p55-max25.akl.ihug.co.nz [209.76.149.55]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA25989 ; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 10:44:45 +1300 Message-Id: <199902102144.KAA25989@smtp1.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: DQ - Spell Prices Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 10:41:29 +1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. ---------- > From: Martin Dickson > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Subject: Re: DQ - Spell Prices > Date: Thursday, February 11, 1999 10:29 AM > > Andrew Luxton wrote: > > > I think Jim's point may have been misunderstood. > > > > I think his main point is that on low-level games, the role-playing award > > forms a higher *proportion* of the total than on high-level games. That was indeed my point. > > Hi Andrew, > > If you are right about this, then one could just as well argue that it is both > logical and fair to make roleplaying a smaller proportion of the total at high > levels. > Bearing in mind that what we are refering to here are the GM set "danger levels" > for the adventure, not a comment on the relative power of the characters on the > mission. I may advetise a "medium" mission and even if I choose to allow > "god-bothering" level characters on it, they will still only recieve a danger > award of "medium". > > In truly high level games "pure" roleplaying tends to take a secondary role as > the bad guys attack you in waves armed with big bits of sharp metal and all > sorts of fireworks. It might be possbile to run a truly high danger level game > with little combat -- the super-Machiavellian politics of certain eastern relams > springs to mind; where one wrong word could see you executed -- but they are > certainly not the norm. > I don't know how this argument can be supported. A role playing game, regardless of level requires roleplaying for it to happen. I don't believe that games at the top end of the danger scale require less roleplaying skill than games at the bottom end. If there is some evidence of this, please send it to me. Games that emphasise social interaction do not emphasise roleplaying. Roleplaying is just playing what you think your character would do, whether that be making some urbane remark over the port, or driving your dagger up the nostril of the Undead you've come to deal to. There is a prejudice that says that if the players are doing a lot of talking, then they are doing a lot of roleplaying. This is not necessarily true. I'm inclined to agree that needless die rolls reduce roleplaying, but pc talking, in and of itself does not lead to more roleplaying. Being in a situation where the actions of your character counts for something is more likely to produce roleplaying. However, this is way off the point. What I meant was that if you award a flat amount for danger, then you are implying that low level game have a larger proportion of roleplaying in them than high level games, as a percentage of the game. In other words, it encourages the progression of people who are poor role players and good war gamers into the top end of the game. Whereas, 'good' role players will get the most ep per unit of roleplaying effort from playing in low level games. That strikes me as being nonsensical in the extreme. Jim. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Feb 10 22:28:04 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id WAA00937; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 22:28:04 +1300 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id WAA00929 ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 22:28:02 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p9-max36.akl.ihug.co.nz [209.76.151.201]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA28704 ; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 11:07:05 +1300 Message-Id: <199902102207.LAA28704@smtp1.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: DQ - Spell Prices Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 11:03:06 +1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. ---------- > From: Martin Dickson > > At the further risk of standing squarely between the two extremes, I can say > that I have found most enjoyable games have had enough of a goal to keep > players focused; enough danger to spice it up; but also enough space allow for > some quiet discussion and character "personal development". > This point is one of the great truisms. A game must allow the player an opportunity to enter the world, and at the same time provide them with an opportunity to be challenged by it. Obstacles must exist that provide the player to develop as a result of confronting them. > Games played at the god-bothering end of the spectrum may lack roleplaying and > revolve around calculating base chances and damage and saying "I'll whack him > again and then drink 3 healing potions". Games played at the low-bunny end may > lack danger and conflict and achievable goals. > That is a contention I just don't believe. A game played at the top end of the game should require the same degree of roleplaying that a game played at the bottom end of the game. More, really, since you're playing with a fairly developed character. > One should perhaps note, that one area where traditional RPGs are losing their > market and players is to multi-player WWW "adventure" games, or other computer > games played by a group. These offer an interesting alternative to the > high-conflict, low-character-interaction end of the RPG spectrum, with all of > the dreary number calculation hidden from you... and with nice graphics. :) There are a lot of reasons why roleplaying games are going to survive MUD roleplaying games. One of the most basic is that you aren't really interacting with other people in the same way in a MUD as you are when you all gather around the pizza at a mate's place. > > If RPGs are to survive they need to fulfill a niche that computer games > cannot. Character interaction and personal exploration and the like are areas > which the computer games cannot yet adequately service -- perhaps another > factor in White Wolf's rise and TSR's slump. The rise in White Wolf is, I believe, a spurious and short-lived one. I certainly believe there is a slump in TSR derived products, and well-deserved, too. But, I don't believe that games are moving toward the White Wolf model. For a start, anyone who has had even a passing acquaintance with game design will quickly realise two things. White Wolf games lack a coherent, robust system, and the characters quickly top out (not necessarily in their skills, but in places to go with their characters). White Wolf games do tend to emphasise the role of the DM or StoryTeller or whatever nomenclature you prefer, and introduce explicitly the idea that the DM is the editor of a mosaic story, if you like, in which all the players take part. If you want to look at new developments in game ideas, I suggest you look at games like: Torg, which introduced the idea of World Laws, i.e. that there may be some rules to a particular place to give it a particular flavour. Earthdawn, which introduced the idea that a rule should create in the PLAYER the feeling that an effect might have on their character, i.e. a good rule is a rule that makes a player want to do what a character would be expected to do....And also that humans should be the best pc race, all the others narrowing a player's options, so that only a few non-humans get chosen, i.e. the most common roleplaying character is the human. > > The question becomes -- what do we want for our campaign? As you said, is the > system insane, or do we want to reward roleplaying over gaming? > > To conclude with one less waffly bit, if we wished to put more emphasis on the > danger level, one area that could be considered for change is the attendance > award. We give 500 points out for turning up? Why? We reward turning up as > much as excellend roleplaying. Perhaps this needs to be considered. This > award could be reduced or removed and its points redistributed to alter the RP > vs G balance without greatly affecting the total number of EP granted per > session. I have no intention of changing the attendance award. I police it strenuously. Nothing irritates me more than a player who turns up late. They slow down the whole game for everybody. A player that turns up 30 minutes late delays the game by an hour. You only have four to play with. That's a quarter of your night's entertainment just flushed down the toilet. Jim. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Feb 10 22:30:30 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id WAA00962; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 22:30:30 +1300 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id WAA00954 ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 22:30:29 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p9-max36.akl.ihug.co.nz [209.76.151.201]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA28948 ; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 11:09:32 +1300 Message-Id: <199902102209.LAA28948@smtp1.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: DQ - Spell Prices Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 11:06:11 +1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. ---------- > From: Andrew Withy (FAL AKL) > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Subject: RE: DQ - Spell Prices > Date: Thursday, February 11, 1999 10:48 AM > > > However, Contribution forms a larger part at high-level - if you don't > pull your weight, or if you screw up, everyone dies. While on hobbit > picnics I guess that letting the ants into the jam doughnuts isn't as > catastrophic, though it may seem so at the time. I seriously doubt that roleplaying is any less important at low levels than it is at high levels. I think this is simply a prejudice. Jim -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Feb 10 22:51:08 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id WAA01052; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 22:51:08 +1300 Received: from peace.com (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id WAA01044 ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 22:51:04 +1300 Received: via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/pcnz2.7) id LAA01327; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 11:30:04 +1300 Message-ID: <36C20AC2.A20E6979@peace.com> Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 11:40:02 +1300 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: DQ - Spell Prices Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------A281DA9F9D7901DF28E59AC8" From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------A281DA9F9D7901DF28E59AC8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim Arona wrote: > A role playing game, > regardless of level requires roleplaying for it to happen. I don't believe > that games at the top end of the danger scale require less roleplaying > skill than games at the bottom end. If there is some evidence of this, > please send it to me. Hi Jim, I didn't mean that they require less roleplaying skill, just that often there is less opportunity for it. The DQ combat system is a prime suspect in this, in that a short combat (taking a minute or two of in-game time) may occupy a whole session of 3+ hours, and an involved combat might take up most of the 13 weeks. Ask Jono about 3-D combats against harpies, or the adventure of Dan's which I believe is listed in the scribe notes as lasting from something like 3:00pm until 3:30pm the same day. During combat play becomes fairly mechanical -- I'm not saying that one can't make witty remarks as you skewer kidneys -- but a lot of the time becomes occupied with calculation, dice rolls, tables, re-reading magic items, etc, etc. Lots of gaming, and as Andrew pointed out, lots of room for contribution, but less room for "pure" roleplaying. > Games that emphasise social interaction do not emphasise roleplaying. (Do you think I mean what I meant?). Just in case, I'll state that I meant social interaction between characters - not players > Roleplaying is just playing what you think your character would do, whether > that be making some urbane remark over the port, or driving your dagger up > the nostril of the Undead you've come to deal to. Sure... but once embroiled in the numerical complexities of combat the choice of driving your dagger into the Undead's nostril becomes quickly over-whelmed by "Did I hit", "What's its defence", and "How much damage did I do". Even Vila will fight like a cornered rat -- the fun is in the roleplaying of getting him into the corner, no? :) > There is a prejudice that says that if the players are doing a lot of > talking, then they are doing a lot of roleplaying. This is not necessarily > true. I'm inclined to agree that needless die rolls reduce roleplaying, but > pc talking, in and of itself does not lead to more roleplaying. Being in a > situation where the actions of your character counts for something is more > likely to produce roleplaying. You are quite right, and choosing to act is often a greater show of strength of conviction (and thus "character") than simply talking about it. However, in talking players also get to express their character's point of view, opinions, etc, and this seems to me to be a valid part of roleplaying too. > However, this is way off the point. True... but it is an interesting point. :) > What I meant was that if you award a flat amount for danger, then you are > implying that low level game have a larger proportion of roleplaying in > them than high level games, as a percentage of the game. I think that they do. If only in so far as traditionally, within DQ, games catergories as high level have usually consisted of long combats -- which I believe reduces roleplaying opportunites. > In other words, it > encourages the progression of people who are poor role players and good war > gamers into the top end of the game. Absolutely, unequivocally, no comment!!! :) :) :) > Whereas, 'good' role players will get the most ep per unit of roleplaying > effort from playing in low level games. > That strikes me as being nonsensical in the extreme. But even if this were entirely true -- what of it? The role-players get what they want (and get rewarded for it) and the gamers get what they want (and are also rewarded for it). Everyone gets what they want. Everyone is happy. We mamange to appeal to both ends of the RPG spectrum. What is "nonsensical" about this? Kind Regards, Martin --------------A281DA9F9D7901DF28E59AC8 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="martin.dickson.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Martin Dickson Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="martin.dickson.vcf" begin:vcard n:Dickson;Martin tel;fax:+64-9-373 0401 tel;work:+64-9-373 0400 x-mozilla-html:FALSE org:Peace Software International;Software Development version:2.1 email;internet:martin.dickson@peace.com title:Team Leader adr;quoted-printable:;;Peace Tower =0D=0ASt. Martins Lane;Auckland;;;New Zealand fn:Martin Dickson end:vcard --------------A281DA9F9D7901DF28E59AC8-- -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Feb 10 22:56:08 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id WAA01086; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 22:56:08 +1300 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id WAA01078 ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 22:56:06 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p239-tnt1.akl.ihug.co.nz [209.232.125.239]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA25966 ; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 11:35:03 +1300 Message-Id: <199902102235.LAA25966@smtp2.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: DQ - EP Awards Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 11:31:43 +1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. ---------- > From: Stephen Martin > I think that the three base areas for awards are fine > Turning up on time and prepared - great. > Contributing to party & GM enjoyment - definitely to be encouraged. > Characterisation and consistency - the "pure" role-playing section and > the most subject to interpretation and bias. Sometime very easy to > award other times hard to judge whether they've done badly or just > differently. This, I don't understand. If a you're unsure of what a player is doing, then you're obviously not convinced. They may be being avant-garde, but unless you were convinced, then it doesn't matter how different they were, at least as far as role-playing is concerned. That's simple failure. You may choose to award points for contribution, because although what they were trying to do didn't succeed, they opened up a new way of playing, 'contributing' to the game as a whole. Or you may not, because their roleplaying, while ingenious, was bloody irritating. I don't believe that roleplaying is hard to judge, or subject to any more interpretation and bias than judging contributions. I do believe that, in general, DMs dislike being accountable for the EP they award. And this ought to be a very public affair. I assign ep after every game, and show the player what the breakdown is. I encourage them to compare their ep with other players. This is healthy. Any feedback a player gets on their performance gives them the opportunity. If the only thing that happens at the end of 13 weeks is you get an undifferentiated lump of ep, then how do you know where you need to put the most work in? Jim. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Feb 10 23:01:42 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id XAA01122; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 23:01:42 +1300 Received: from peace.com (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id XAA01114 ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 23:01:37 +1300 Received: via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/pcnz2.7) id LAA02068; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 11:40:36 +1300 Message-ID: <36C20D3B.D0671398@peace.com> Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 11:50:35 +1300 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: DQ - Spell Prices Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------6619256FDE4633E8B1DA0F3C" From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------6619256FDE4633E8B1DA0F3C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Andrew Withy (FAL AKL)" wrote: > While on hobbit > picnics I guess that letting the ants into the jam doughnuts isn't as > catastrophic, though it may seem so at the time. I was on that hobbit picnic and I would just like to state for the record that some damn scary things happened. The memory of that night in the pub when the barrel of Love Potion went astray is one that I have tried to erase for years. And for the last time.... *It wasn't my fault!* Mortimer ---- I think that we should be careful with the idea that low level also means humourous or trivial. I have run some of (what I like to think of as) my best fantasy/horror games at low level. At higher level the PCs tend to have too much in their armamentarium to sustain the feeling that you can get with a scary situation and a bunch of bunnies At high levels they may be scared of what the GM throws at them -- but the "things that go bump" type horror is best achieved at low level, IMHO. Cheers, Martin --------------6619256FDE4633E8B1DA0F3C Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="martin.dickson.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Martin Dickson Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="martin.dickson.vcf" begin:vcard n:Dickson;Martin tel;fax:+64-9-373 0401 tel;work:+64-9-373 0400 x-mozilla-html:FALSE org:Peace Software International;Software Development version:2.1 email;internet:martin.dickson@peace.com title:Team Leader adr;quoted-printable:;;Peace Tower =0D=0ASt. Martins Lane;Auckland;;;New Zealand fn:Martin Dickson end:vcard --------------6619256FDE4633E8B1DA0F3C-- -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Feb 10 23:16:14 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id XAA01169; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 23:16:14 +1300 Received: from letterbox.cs.auckland.ac.nz (letterbox.cs.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.35.1]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id XAA01161 ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 23:16:12 +1300 Received: from andrewlpc (andrew-l-pc.cs.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.34.146]) by letterbox.cs.auckland.ac.nz (8.8.6/8.8.6/cs-master) with SMTP id LAA24111 ; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 11:55:08 +1300 (sender andrew-l@cs.auckland.ac.nz) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990211115916.008f3180@staffpop.cs.auckland.ac.nz> X-Sender: andrew-l@staffpop.cs.auckland.ac.nz X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 11:59:16 +1300 Subject: Re: DQ - EP Awards Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: Andrew Luxton To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. How about this: Start a bunch of new characters. Sign them up for a god-bothering mission. Get the other characters on the adventure to turn you into a mole/toad/rodent, Petit Mort you and store you in their portable hole. Of course there is no point showing for the rest of the game... but that doesn't really matter. When the adventure is over, you don't get any EP for showing up, no EP for contribution, no EP for roleplaying, but still get the large danger award. Say 2000 EP per session over 10 sessions. I guess this is a good mechanism for those that want to play at higher levels without taking the loooong road through low and medium. I guess the current system has more flexibility than people think huh? How about it Mandos? Are ya keen? :) Andrew ------------------------------------------------------------------- Andrew Luxton andrew-l@cs.auckland.ac.nz Department of Computer Science http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz University of Auckland Phone: +64 9 3737 599 x5654 Private Bag 92019, Auckland, NZ Fax: +64 9 3737 453 -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Feb 10 23:17:59 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id XAA01193; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 23:17:59 +1300 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id XAA01185 ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 23:17:57 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p239-tnt1.akl.ihug.co.nz [209.232.125.239]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA28481 ; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 11:56:57 +1300 Message-Id: <199902102256.LAA28481@smtp2.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: DQ - Spell Prices Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 11:53:39 +1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. ---------- > From: Martin Dickson > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Subject: Re: DQ - Spell Prices > Date: Thursday, February 11, 1999 11:40 AM > > Jim Arona wrote: > > > A role playing game, > > regardless of level requires roleplaying for it to happen. I don't believe > > that games at the top end of the danger scale require less roleplaying > > skill than games at the bottom end. If there is some evidence of this, > > please send it to me. > > Hi Jim, > > I didn't mean that they require less roleplaying skill, just that often there > is less opportunity for it. The DQ combat system is a prime suspect in this, > in that a short combat (taking a minute or two of in-game time) may occupy a > whole session of 3+ hours, and an involved combat might take up most of the 13 > weeks. > > Ask Jono about 3-D combats against harpies, or the adventure of Dan's which I > believe is listed in the scribe notes as lasting from something like 3:00pm > until 3:30pm the same day. > > During combat play becomes fairly mechanical -- I'm not saying that one can't > make witty remarks as you skewer kidneys -- but a lot of the time becomes > occupied with calculation, dice rolls, tables, re-reading magic items, etc, > etc. If the only thing that happens in a high level game is combat, then I would have to agree with you, but in general, from low through to high level games, there must be opportunities to roleplay. I believe that the encounters you are talking about are exceptions, rather than the norm, where the high level game is just a series of combats. That provides little opportunity for roleplaying, and frankly, leaves me cold. It is not the sort of game I'd enjoy playing, or DMing. I see no reason why high level games should not provide players with opportunities to interact with each other or NPCs, to face moral quandaries, or overcome internal character barriers. In fact, I believe that they are critically important at any stage of the game. I have not played in a high level game where the DM did not attempt to do that, whether or not they succeeded, in whatever system. As for combat becoming mechanical, that is a flaw that is typical of DQ, and not because of the system, either. True, the system is ungainly. But a good DM will inject life into combat, and allow the players opportunities to roleplay within it. That is part of the art of DMing well. > > Lots of gaming, and as Andrew pointed out, lots of room for contribution, but > less room for "pure" roleplaying. A contention with which I hold alternative views. > > > Games that emphasise social interaction do not emphasise roleplaying. > > (Do you think I mean what I meant?). Just in case, I'll state that I meant > social interaction between characters - not players Perhaps I wasn't clear. A game that emphasises social interaction with other characters does not, in and of itself, emphasise roleplaying. It's just emphasising interaction with other characters. The interaction must carry some moment for the player for them to be engaged in roleplaying. If they have little interest in the interaction, then it doesn't provide them with much of an opportunity to roleplay. > > > Roleplaying is just playing what you think your character would do, whether > > that be making some urbane remark over the port, or driving your dagger up > > the nostril of the Undead you've come to deal to. > > Sure... but once embroiled in the numerical complexities of combat the choice > of driving your dagger into the Undead's nostril becomes quickly over-whelmed > by "Did I hit", "What's its defence", and "How much damage did I do". It can do. Again, it depends on how you dress it up, really. > > Even Vila will fight like a cornered rat -- the fun is in the roleplaying of > getting him into the corner, no? :) In this instance, the character has overcome an internal character barrier, and overcome it, for the time being. That's fine. Vila should still fight like the little scrote that he is, with everything his player can bring to the game to make him seem like a cornered rat. The DM should provide Vila's player with opportunities to express something about what it is to be a complete poltroon with some very handy skills and spells. In combat, as well as out of it. After all, Vila hasn't suddenly disappeared, just because the figures have come out. > > > There is a prejudice that says that if the players are doing a lot of > > talking, then they are doing a lot of roleplaying. This is not necessarily > > true. I'm inclined to agree that needless die rolls reduce roleplaying, but > > pc talking, in and of itself does not lead to more roleplaying. Being in a > > situation where the actions of your character counts for something is more > > likely to produce roleplaying. > > You are quite right, and choosing to act is often a greater show of strength of > conviction (and thus "character") than simply talking about it. However, in > talking players also get to express their character's point of view, opinions, > etc, and this seems to me to be a valid part of roleplaying too. I haven't any brief against social interaction with other characters. I'm just saying that it isn't where roleplaying begins and ends. Jim. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Feb 10 23:23:15 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id XAA01229; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 23:23:15 +1300 Received: from mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (mailhost.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.1.4]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id XAA01221 ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 23:23:14 +1300 Received: from sci4 (lbr-122-42.lbrsc.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.122.42]) by mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (8.9.2/8.9.2/8.9.2-ua) with SMTP id MAA23088 ; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 12:02:16 +1300 (NZDT) Message-Id: <199902102302.MAA23088@mailhost.auckland.ac.nz> Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 12:02:14 +0000 Subject: Simple solution: Bonds & Surities X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) From: "Michael Parkinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-to: m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Dear all, General Background: In ancient through to Renaissance times, the Ruler of a City was somewtimes held responsible for most things that happened to the City & would undertake, according to the varying local custom, to repair or replace damage that happened to the property of Citizens -- meaning tax-paying merchants, armed petty-nobles, etc. This damage might even include theft and brigandage, as well as genuine accidents. Game Background: The Duke of Seagate has some sort of monopoly on magic, or (at least) is believed to be responsible for keeping the guild under control. Suggestion ======== The cost for learning special magic has two components, namely: 1. The guild time, effort, dues, etc -- perhaps 1000 sp per week's training time AND 2. A surety, or bond for good behaviour for every spell which causes personal injury, or damage to private/public property [directly or indirectly] according to some simple scale, say: 5,000 sp -- causes (or encourages) minor mayhem, minor disorder, or petty illegal activities [All spells probably meet this criteria]; 10,000 sp -- capable of causing direct personal injury; 15,000 sp -- intended to cause death or disruption of persons or livestock; 20,000 sp -- causes destruction of specific or localised property; localised public disorder, including illegal activity by several persons; 30,000 (+) sp -- causes wide-spread damage to property, wide-spread social disorder (including panic, looting, etc) Should an act of violence or disorder occur, then the Duke's underlings will undertake the restitution, once they are satisfied magic was involved. Of course should a guildmember be identified suficiently (as far as the Duke or his Guard captains are concerned), they have lost their bond & must hand-over another, yet another, 15ooo sp -- or whatever. This surety is over and above any fine or punishment. The Duke is capable of dismissing genuine accidents when commited by honest or upstanding [i.e., tax-generating] citizens, especially if the party concerned is prepared to hush-up or smooth-over any difficulties with a little cash (or a lot). Conversely, for the sake of good order, the Duke will be obliged to punish flagrantly malevolent, or moronic, acts. In practice the Duke will spend most of the cash on real expenses: like town-walls, spies, guards, mistresses, etc. Furthermore the GM, representing the guilds interest & knowledge, will probably ensure that the Duke is duly informed of the identity of the malefactor -- in a *reasonable* percentage of obvious cases of infringement, naturally. Michael Parkinson Information Services A/L Science Library, University of Auckland. Email: m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz Phone: (09) 3737 599 x 5858 Fax: (09) 3082 304 -- See message headers to unsubscribe from --