From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Nov 30 08:06:51 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id IAA22841; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 08:06:09 +1300 Received: from peace.com (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id IAA22838 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 08:06:08 +1300 Message-ID: <3842CBA9.B3DE0027@peace.com> Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 07:53:29 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Good And Evil. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > [Michael Woodhams] wrote: The idea of four archangels predates the Deryni > novels. Probably, DQ having four archangels predates the Deryni novels, but > I'm not certain on that. > > [Martin] The number of named Archangels varies depending on the source and > (from memory) ranges in number between about 4 and 9... I seem to recall 7 is > quite common.... I can check my "big book of angels" at home and let you know > if you'd like. > > [Jim] There are 4 Archangels. Michael, Gabriel, Raphael, and Uriel, or Auriel, > or sometimes Muriel. These archangels are not to be confused with the 'order' > of Archangels, that some angels come from. ... The only really important thing > is not to confuse the big 4 with the order of archangels. Hi Michael, It's so annoying not having reference books to hand when you need them... anyway... how many Archangels? Jim's comments about not confusing the Order of Archangels with the specific Archangels are quite right, but I fear he may be misled in thinking there are only four of the latter -- by the same token my suggestion of between four and nine was also generally wrong, (I was confusing myself with the number of orders of angels, which various sources make between seven and twelve). Unlike so many other things in Angelology, most sources agree that the number of archangels is seven. This is derived partially from Revelations 8:2 "And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets." KJV Of these seven only three are named in canonical works: Michael, Gabriel, and Raphael -- and in the case of Raphael only then in the apocryphal book of Tobit. Jude 1:9 "Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee." KJV Luke 1:19 "And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel , that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings." KJV Tobit 12:15 "I am Raphael, one of the seven angels who stand in the glorious presence of the Lord, ready to serve him." Good News Bible with Deuterocanonical Books/Apocrypha Now... pinning down the other three is harder and sources don't agree on who they are: Enoch I: Michael (M), Gabriel (G), Raphael (R), Uriel (U), Raguel (& variants), Zerachiel (&v), Remiel (&v). 3 Enoch: Mikael, G, Shatqiel, Baradiel, Shachaqiel, Baraqiel (&v), Sidriel (&v). Testament of Solomon: Mikael, G, U, Sabrael, Arael, Iaoth, Adonael. Gnostic: M, G, R, U (also called Phanuel), Barachiel, Sealtiel, Jehudiel. Gregory the Great: M, G, R, U, Simiel, Orifiel, Zachariel. Pseudo-Dionysius: M, G, R, U, Chamuel, Jophiel, Zadkiel. Geonic Lore: M, G, R, Aniel, Kafziel, Samael, Zadkiel Not to say that all sources agree on seven. The most notable exception is the Koran which recognizes four Archangels but names only two: Gabriel (as Jibril) and Michael -- although I haven't been able to personally confirm this (I can't seem to find the names of any angels in the on-line searchable Koran). The other two are commonly stated to be: Azrael (angel of death -- and I understand another variant of Raphael) and Israfel (angel of music... and trumpet blower). Some other sources state the number of Archangels to be 9 or 10 or 12. Cheers, Martin -- _/_/ Peace Software New Zealand Ltd Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com _/ Martin Dickson Fax : +64-9-373-0401 Analyst Phone: +64-9-373-0400 -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Nov 30 09:07:59 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id JAA22929; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 09:00:33 +1300 Received: from enterprise.iconz.co.nz (enterprise.iconz.co.nz [210.48.22.40]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id JAA22926 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 09:00:31 +1300 Received: (qmail 25563 invoked from network); 29 Nov 1999 19:49:16 -0000 Received: from mandos.internet.co.nz (HELO mandos) (210.48.42.117) by enterprise.iconz.co.nz with SMTP; 29 Nov 1999 19:49:16 -0000 Subject: RE: Demonology Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 08:54:39 +1300 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 From: "Mandos D Shadowspawn Esq" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > I'm not trying to establish a background, beyond pointing out, in > general terms, where my view on Demons is different. Given that > Demons are a fundamental part of the universe, any definition of their nature > needs to be extremely general. That way, it does less damage to the integrity of other > DM's games. "hat's Crap" is not a general term for discribing a view as different. You have not really given any real reasons as to why Martins view is not acceptable to you nor have you given any examples to show why you dislike it. As our discussion about the bible goes colour and interest are where you find it and I would still like to know the reasons for your dislike of Martins ideology in a more specific sence. I am a little confused also as to the other threads about this topic. Everyone agreed that good/evil did not need to be defined any more, but then most seem to want an Ultimate Good/Evil behind the forces we use in the game. Isn't that more of a definition of the powers or have I misinterperated something? > What? How do you come to that conclusion? The Bible is extremely > colourful and has heaps of flavour. It lacks integrity, but then it's the > work of many different authors, and lots of different translations. If you > mean it can sustain lots of interpretations, then yes, it can. > That doesn't have any effect on its colour and flavour. Some of those > interpretations may lack colour, etc, I suppose. Apart from the cute rambling of the chaps who seem to like the mushrooms a wee bit too much I find the Bible to be very uniflavoured in the Good/Evil department. It wavers between unlikly parables of good and vengeful nastiness from God on the bad side. But as I said colour is hwere you find it :-) Mandos /s -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Nov 30 09:09:16 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id IAA22920; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 08:56:38 +1300 Received: from peace.com (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id IAA22917 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 08:56:37 +1300 Message-ID: <3842D77A.D35E0A02@peace.com> Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 08:43:54 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Good And Evil. Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Jim Arona wrote:
    Your rationalisation, which may work well for you, says that demons are
more connected to elves and dragons.
[snip]
    On top of which, your rationalisation implies several things that I
don't like.
    1) I might reasonably assume that there was a race of Angels, some of
whom Fell. Over time, the race faded away, leaving only Angels, Demons, and
the pathetic relict of a once great race, that we know today as elves.
This is an interesting idea, but not what I have suggested.  Drawing this inference suggests that you have either not read, or not understood what I have written.  Disagreeing with me is just fine... but disagreeing with me over things I haven't suggested seems a bit foolish and a waste of a good argument.  :)

If you are interested in what bit I have written for DQ try having a look at the bits and pieces in the Mythos and Theos sections in Mortimers Library, specifically:

The Ages of Alusian History
On the Beginning and the End
Jade Dragon's Story

    3) They are part of a race, and therefore have an ecology, admittedly,
one that may no longer pertain. They had a culture, involved themselves in
breeding, and had relationships.

    I don't like point 1 and 3 is because it creates the impression that
they are closer to humanity. They are like us, they share, or shared,
similar kinds of interest.

In Hebrew mythology at least the Angels certainly did involve themselves in relationships and breeding -- not amongst themselves perhaps, but with mortal women... rather dispelling the myth that angels are sexless.

Genesis 6:4 (English-NIV): The Nephilim were on the earth in those days--and also afterward--when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.

I don't think Demons or Angels should be like humans. In fact, I think
it's best if they aren't like us, at all.There may be areas that make them
seem similar, for example, Nebiros' loyalty...
Does Nebiros go by some other name or names? He sounds like an interesting (if twisted chap) -- but I can't find him in my usual sources: Solomonic Manuscripts, Davidson's Dictionary of Angels, etc.

Regards,
            Martin

--

 _/_/  Peace Software New Zealand Ltd   Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com
_/     Martin Dickson                   Fax  : +64-9-373-0401
       Analyst                          Phone: +64-9-373-0400
  -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Nov 30 09:21:56 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id JAA22944; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 09:06:46 +1300 Received: from enterprise.iconz.co.nz (enterprise.iconz.co.nz [210.48.22.40]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id JAA22938 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 09:06:32 +1300 Received: (qmail 26140 invoked from network); 29 Nov 1999 19:55:18 -0000 Received: from mandos.internet.co.nz (HELO mandos) (210.48.42.117) by enterprise.iconz.co.nz with SMTP; 29 Nov 1999 19:55:18 -0000 Subject: Adventurers Wanted Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 09:00:40 +1300 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 From: "Mandos D Shadowspawn Esq" To: dq-announce@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq-announce@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz A gentleman in shadowy black enters the guild late one evening. Removing his cloak he informs Guild Security he is a bishop and he seeks to hire some adventurers. I believe my Pope has been corrupted by the black powers and is destoying our people in a war against those who worship Chantress. The war and the hatred has continued too long and I wish it to stop. To that end I pledge 60,000 silvers to aid in his assasination. -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Nov 30 09:22:24 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id JAA22988; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 09:11:04 +1300 Received: from peace.com (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id JAA22985 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 09:11:01 +1300 Message-ID: <3842DAEF.D9C8986F@peace.com> Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 08:58:40 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Good And Evil. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Michael Woodhams To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Martin Dickson wrote: > Unlike so many other things in Angelology, most sources agree that the number of > archangels is seven. VACANCIES: We are currently looking to fill two vacancies for the position of Archangel. The successful applicants will be incapable of evil acts, able to manifest avatars, and will have a sphere of influence complementary to those of the current staff members. Applications must be written using the natural or magical phenomina of the applicant's choice, but letters at least 1 furlong high if formed in a solid or 1 mile if insubstantial. -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Nov 30 11:22:36 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id LAA23223; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 11:18:18 +1300 Received: from sun.syzygy.net (sun.syzygy.co.uk [195.26.96.2]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id LAA23216 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 11:16:23 +1300 Received: from lonexapps01.syzygy.net ([195.26.97.242]) by sun.syzygy.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA06804 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 22:04:24 GMT Received: by mailpost.syzygy.net with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) id ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 22:04:26 -0000 Message-ID: <30C64922AF42D311A96D00A0C91D0B10489E7A@mailpost.syzygy.net> Subject: RE: Evil and Good. Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 22:04:24 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) Content-Type: text/plain From: Daniel Dixon To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz All view points are valid. There can at once be 7, 9, 12 or 101 demons. One of the nice things about traditional role playing (as traditional as it is) is how quite disparate visualizations or conceptualizations can interact reasonably. Two non-equivalent conceptions of the world, whether it be an action or an object can occur for the same piece of game mechanics or verbal description. It's kind of like a Heisenburg uncertainty principle for reality. It's only when closely observed that the macroscopic structure collapses and the details clash violently. Highly graphical roleplaying games, at least partially, destroy this creative difference of conceptualization. They make for a different experience and a different type of interaction between the players. The off-line face-to-face RPG embraces this difference of conceptualization and allows people with different view points on the common world to co-exist. I think I have drifted somewhat from my point... With such things as Demons or any other super-natural (as much as it is), mythical, or un-explainable phenomena there should be able to be any number of view points peacefully co-existing in the world. No one should be able to define how many demons/archangels there are, what exactly there name is or when their birthday exactly occurs. GMs can make it up as they go along, these things don't have to be definite, it then becomes too constraining for everyone. RPGs are not a set of games about rules they are a set of rules about games. The fun games are the ones where the rules get bent. Although I applaude the rational debate and the valuable research I think that it should be possible for each and every GM to define the way these mythical/mystical/mysterious phenomena work. That way the myths and legends can truly function like myths and legends do. Unspecific, able to be interpreted in many ways, as slippery as the language that defines them. For some the stories of the elves make sense and on one adventure theose legends hold true, on another the demons are old dragons, another they come from beyond the stars. Mythical deconstructionism I am not trying to apply this point to the rules, I still believe that there needs to be an understood and implemented uniformly. However from a story telling point of view the game needs to be fluid and campaing details need to change to fit the plot. I shall be turning up for the interview, await the omens... ?-----Original Message----- ?From: Michael Woodhams [mailto:michaelw@peace.com] ?Sent: 29 November 1999 19:59 ?To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz ?Subject: Re: Good And Evil. ? ? ?Martin Dickson wrote: ? ?> Unlike so many other things in Angelology, most sources ?agree that the number of ?> archangels is seven. ? ?VACANCIES: ? ?We are currently looking to fill two vacancies for the ?position of Archangel. The ?successful applicants will be incapable of evil acts, able to ?manifest avatars, and ?will have a sphere of influence complementary to those of the ?current staff ?members. Applications must be written using the natural or ?magical phenomina of the ?applicant's choice, but letters at least 1 furlong high if ?formed in a solid or 1 ?mile if insubstantial. ? ? ? ? ?-- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- ? -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Nov 30 11:38:01 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id LAA23252; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 11:26:17 +1300 Received: from peace.com (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id LAA23249 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 11:26:13 +1300 Message-ID: <3842FA7E.66EFB06C@peace.com> Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 11:13:18 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Good And Evil. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Paul Schmidt wrote: > > I take it it is the creation myth behind demons that you particularly object > to? > > Yes. Demons and devils should be mythic in scale and origin, not pastiches > of left over consciousness from basic races like Elves. They lack a grandeur > and a degree of malevolence when presented in this fashion. What is more > interesting in a mythic sense - a being who fell from Heaven or one who is a > jumped up Drow? The one who fell from heaven... You are right -- demons in the classic sense are mythic in scale and origin, and yet DQ has a 20 year history of PCs beating the snot out of their physical manifestations. No mere mortal should be able to pick up a silvered stick and beat the tar out of a Prince of Hell... it strains suspension of disbelief just a little far. Pehaps if GMs of years past had portrayed the demons with more infernal majesty I would believe that we could support the notion of them as "mythic in scale"... but the simple truth is that we have a long history of treating them much like overgrown orcs... or D&D demons for that matter... really big nasty NPCs to challenge parties with. I think the demons as evil ex-mortals -- a sort of nasty spirit being -- fits well with their historical portrayal. > In the current set up anyone can aspire to be a demon - just be bad enough in > a bland kind > of way and you're off. I would rather hope that it would require an epic quantity of evil to achieve this... simply being blandly evil might get you subsumed by one... but it should hardly be enough to buy you a peerage. Bear in mind that the current crop of demons would date to a time when they strode the earth as giants and magic sang in the air (to paraphrase Jim's comments about earlier epic ages of the world). > I have no objection to promotion amongst the ranks of > evil, but I'd like to see some of them, especially the most ancient being > fallen beings of another order. Agreed again. The truly epic/mythic beings should be something else... perhaps an earlier creation. I have suggested Dragons as the first mortal race, partially for the simple reason that this is "DragonQuest" and it seemed fitting... but other mythic-y types would do too... Titans seem to fit the bill and semi-divine... perhaps there are others. Titans would also be good as Nephilim -- semi-mortal off-spring of gods and mortals. > > And other planes can have entire new pantheons. > > Exactly. Which is a benefit of multi-player/GM games. That, along with wanting > "to do your own thing" is why most games are off plane. Many games are off plane for the simple reason that Alusia is so badly documented. We seem to get inter-planar farmers turning up to get hirelings... not because the GM wants to do something world shattering on that farm, but because they are so unsure where the farm should be if in Alusia. > That and not wanting to step on other peoples toes, or have them stepped on by > folks who regulary threaten other GM's patches, or indeed the whole of Alusia. [snip] > Others are entitled to rule as they like but they shouldn't force their views > are defacto rules. Threatening Alusia? If we have no background for the world, no cultures, no myths, then we may as well have the Guild as an extra-dimensional hiring hall with no existence outside of the adventure sequence and every GM have their own world. That is not a shared/multi-GM campaign, just a shared player pool. If a GM wants to do their own thing then other planes offer an excellent solution. If GMs want to work inside the historical framework of Alusia and add to the shared world then do that. > Re-discover how the Gods are in 2,000 - a year of revelation perhaps. > Introduce background Powers who are self made and originating, not a lot of > old elves in drag. Introduce a mythic background evil, one so ancient yet > nebulous it has corrupted and produced more recent powers, perhaps witout > them even knowing it. Yes, I think that's an excellent idea -- and one that a number of people (myself included) have been working towards. I don't think this invalidates the idea of more recent powers as being lesser in both stature and origin. The demons -- and especially the first demons -- may think of themselves as the biggest, baddest kids on the block... course the point may be just that... they are just the neighbourhood bullies compared to the really big things out there. Works for me. Cheers, Martin -- _/_/ Peace Software New Zealand Ltd Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com _/ Martin Dickson Fax : +64-9-373-0401 Analyst Phone: +64-9-373-0400 -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Nov 30 11:52:26 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id LAA23296; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 11:44:26 +1300 Received: from peace.com (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id LAA23293 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 11:44:24 +1300 Message-ID: <3842FEC7.5FC15CEC@peace.com> Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 11:31:35 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Evil and Good. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Daniel Dixon (at syzgy.net) wrote: > I am not trying to apply this point to the rules, I still believe that there > needs to be an understood and implemented uniformly. However from a story > telling point of view the game needs to be fluid and campaing details need > to change to fit the plot. This is obviously a matter of personal taste and perspective. If details change part way through a movie or book I will think it is a either a cunning plot device (that will be explained later) or a continuity error. If I get to the end and it's not explained I'll be certain it's a continuity error. The matter of perspective and taste runs to whether this consistency can/should be expected in roleplaying "per episode" or through a character's eyes throughout their life. By analogy, if I go to a foreign country I expect strange laws and odd customs, but I don't expect the laws and customs of my own country to change (and possibly change back again) with no explanation -- that would be a continuity error, and I might be justifies in thinking I'd slipped into a Twilight Zone story. > I shall be turning up for the interview, await the omens... This is a frightening threat from someone who has no vowels in their address. :) Ia! Ia ftaghn! Daniel nicht ftaghn! Ftaghn ftaghn! Cheers, Martin -- _/_/ Peace Software New Zealand Ltd Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com _/ Martin Dickson Fax : +64-9-373-0401 Analyst Phone: +64-9-373-0400 -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Nov 30 12:42:43 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id MAA23471; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 12:40:32 +1300 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id MAA23468 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 12:40:28 +1300 Received: from phaeton (p47-tnt7.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.203.47]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id MAA20057 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 12:28:31 +1300 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19991130123046.007d9690@pop.ihug.co.nz> X-Sender: phaeton@pop.ihug.co.nz X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 12:30:46 +1300 Subject: Re: Subscription. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: Keith Smith To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz >For updating list subscriptions on *any* mailing list, I'd suggest >always >trying email to the "list-request" address as the first thing to try. (I >mean >list-request as in: "dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz"). It works for 95% of >mailing >lists, including the DQ ones. Quite correct. Also, in the body of the message, it would be helpful to specify which list you are referring to as there are three: dq-announce - for announcements, minutes, agendas etc dq-pub - for in character messages dq - for general dq discussions At the moment, I'm making the assumption that if a list name is not specified then it refers to all three lists. Also, any requests for the dq list, automatically implies dq-announce (if it isn't already set up for the applicant) so that everyone at least gets the meeting notices. Keith (phaeton@ihug.co.nz) -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Nov 30 12:51:35 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id MAA23508; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 12:45:19 +1300 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id MAA23504 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 12:45:16 +1300 Received: from phaeton (p47-tnt7.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.203.47]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id MAA20844 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 12:33:18 +1300 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19991130123534.008bd3a0@pop.ihug.co.nz> X-Sender: phaeton@pop.ihug.co.nz X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 12:35:34 +1300 Subject: Testing... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: Keith Smith To: dq-announce@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq-announce@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz There's been a glitch with the lists but, if this comes though, then everything should be working again. Keith (phaeton@ihug.co.nz) -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Nov 30 13:07:30 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id NAA23548; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 13:00:01 +1300 Received: from fclaklmr03.fcl.co.nz (mail.fcl.co.nz [203.98.14.148]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id MAA23545 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 12:59:59 +1300 Received: from falaklex00.falum.co.nz - 10.8.1.28 by fclaklmr03.fcl.co.nz with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1774.114.11); Tue, 30 Nov 1999 12:47:59 +1300 Received: by FALAKLEX00 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 12:51:31 +1300 Message-ID: <311B3C3DD32FD311B33900805F770A725FB525@FALAKLEX00> Subject: stuff for this gods meeting Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 12:51:26 +1300 X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: <311B3C3DD32FD311B33900805F770A725FB525@FALAKLEX00> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----_=_NextPart_000_01BF3AC4.A8A23740" From: "Andrew Withy (FAL AKL)" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_000_01BF3AC4.A8A23740 Content-Type: text/plain Can we put on the agenda for this meeting: 1) Outgoing adventures (obviously) 2) Millennial and general events for GMs GMing this session 3) Spell Price Review - is it OK or way out. 4) Progress on Namer, Mind, any other major rules chunks? 5) Some proposals for Fire changes from those who said fragments of it were broken. 6) Discussion of the MR <= 71+WP ruling, and hopefully we can reverse it. (BTW, mages with a greater, amulet of luck, rank 5 purification top out their MR with Rank 4 counterspells, non mages as above top out at Rank 0 counterspells with this idea) Oh, and I won't be there, so all you who stay away 'cause you hate me, turn up! Andrew ------_=_NextPart_000_01BF3AC4.A8A23740 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IiAXAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQWAAwAOAAAAzwcLAB4ADAAzABoAAgBaAQEggAMADgAAAM8HCwAe AAwAMwAeAAIAXgEBCYABACEAAABBNkE5MUY1REI3QTZEMzExQjM0QTAwODA1Rjc3MEE3MgAfBwEE gAEAHAAAAHN0dWZmIGZvciB0aGlzIGdvZHMgbWVldGluZwA9CgENgAQAAgAAAAIAAgABA5AGANQH AAAtAAAAAwAAgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAUoUAAPMVAAAeAAGACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAA RgAAAABUhQAAAQAAAAUAAAA4LjA0AAAAAAMAAoAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAAAGFAAAAAAAA CwADgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAA4UAAAAAAAALAASACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAAO hQAAAAAAAAMABYAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAABCFAAAAAAAAAwAGgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAA AEYAAAAAEYUAAAAAAAADAAeACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAAYhQAAAAAAAB4ACIAIIAYAAAAA AMAAAAAAAABGAAAAADaFAAABAAAAAQAAAAAAAAAeAAmACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAA3hQAA AQAAAAEAAAAAAAAAHgAKgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAOIUAAAEAAAABAAAAAAAAAAIBCRAB AAAAowIAAJ8CAABpAwAATFpGdXnwPysDAAoAcmNwZzEyNRYyAPgLYG4OEDAzM08B9wKkA+MCAGNo CsBzsGV0MCAHEwKAfQqBknYIkHdrC4BkNAxgTmMAUAsDC7UgQwORdzBlIHB1BUACICB0EmgUIGFn CfBkYSDvAhAFwBSwBAAgB4ARMAuAHGc6CqIKhAqAMSkgMk8UUGdvFjEU4GR2jQnwdAhwB5Eob2IS IKEIYHNseSkWejIXQPpNAxBsCfADAAdAFOASgO4gFQEEkBrBZRgSBCAVYvxHTQQgHGAXshWjESAE EBcY4AuQFokzF0BTcGWpGmAgUAUQYxQgUhuwURIxIC0gFcFpBUBPxksUcAXAd2F5FHAUUNouFno0 F0AfEG8JwQQRyRSBTmEHgHIsGjESgL8jQABwIOEUsQXAAMBqBbEccnUacAQgEOB1bmv0cz8WejUe kQNwFCEDYJhwb3MHQBwERmkJcH8lEQ8RB5EDUhShJxAUIHf/KOAdQAtwGxADUBTwB4Ab4lxvZiAi FBAn0WIDYGurCfAhOzYXQEQEAGMZAAcdgipSFLJNUiA8PcAgNzErV1AkshYx7yOiGxAo4B7AZiTQ GSAUAn5jA5EJcBgQEREgISE1KPhCVFcjQADAKEID8BSw5xTgGyAJcGF0IyIjACTR5xRhKnAKQGNr I0AbcCVQfCA1FDEGgQ3gMpAs4nS/JvAg8hSiJ8AtgjHzUjQCvjQlEAhgAjAwUR7CcyNA9m4UgTGU YThxBuAYEDUn/zKQNoQRUDcLMeQVoymQMoBpGUtPaC60SRQAAiAnrQVAYjkBJCFlI0BzKVB7B0AD IHkIYCkkAZAg4GH9IMInL+AZABQgPuIQ8DKgjxXhI0AYQQOgdXAhFnq2QRKACXB3FnQR4QBDgAAD ACYAAAAAAAMANgAAAAAACwACAAEAAAAeAHAAAQAAABwAAABzdHVmZiBmb3IgdGhpcyBnb2RzIG1l ZXRpbmcAAgFxAAEAAAAWAAAAAb86xM3l7pAZlKaUEdOC5QDAT5u8fQAAQAA5ABC2aabEOr8BAwDx PwkEAAAeADFAAQAAAAgAAABBTkRSRVdXAAMAGkAAAAAAHgAwQAEAAAAIAAAAQU5EUkVXVwADABlA AAAAAAMA/T/kBAAAAwCAEP////8CAUcAAQAAADEAAABjPU5aO2E9IDtwPUZDTDtsPUZBTEFLTEVY MDAtOTkxMTI5MjM1MTI2Wi01OTYxMTQAAAAAAgH5PwEAAABGAAAAAAAAANynQMjAQhAatLkIACsv 4YIBAAAAAAAAAC9PPUZDTC9PVT1GQUxBS0wvQ049UkVDSVBJRU5UUy9DTj1BTkRSRVdXAAAAHgD4 PwEAAAAfAAAAQW5kcmV3IFdpdGh5ICAgICAgICAgKEZBTCBBS0wpAAAeADhAAQAAAAgAAABBTkRS RVdXAAIB+z8BAAAARgAAAAAAAADcp0DIwEIQGrS5CAArL+GCAQAAAAAAAAAvTz1GQ0wvT1U9RkFM QUtML0NOPVJFQ0lQSUVOVFMvQ049QU5EUkVXVwAAAB4A+j8BAAAAHwAAAEFuZHJldyBXaXRoeSAg ICAgICAgIChGQUwgQUtMKQAAHgA5QAEAAAAIAAAAQU5EUkVXVwBAAAcwsHT4ScQ6vwFAAAgwQDei qMQ6vwEeAD0AAQAAAAEAAAAAAAAAHgAdDgEAAAAcAAAAc3R1ZmYgZm9yIHRoaXMgZ29kcyBtZWV0 aW5nAB4ANRABAAAANAAAADwzMTFCM0MzREQzMkZEMzExQjMzOTAwODA1Rjc3MEE3MjVGQjUyNUBG QUxBS0xFWDAwPgALACkAAAAAAAsAIwAAAAAAAwAGEIGYpakDAAcQEwIAAAMAEBAAAAAAAwAREAAA AAAeAAgQAQAAAGUAAABDQU5XRVBVVE9OVEhFQUdFTkRBRk9SVEhJU01FRVRJTkc6MSlPVVRHT0lO R0FEVkVOVFVSRVMoT0JWSU9VU0xZKTIpTUlMTEVOTklBTEFOREdFTkVSQUxFVkVOVFNGT1JHTVNH AAAAAAIBfwABAAAANAAAADwzMTFCM0MzREQzMkZEMzExQjMzOTAwODA1Rjc3MEE3MjVGQjUyNUBG QUxBS0xFWDAwPgAMqQ== ------_=_NextPart_000_01BF3AC4.A8A23740-- -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Nov 30 14:23:14 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id OAA23692; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 14:21:16 +1300 Received: from mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (mailhost.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.1.4]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id OAA23689 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 14:21:13 +1300 Received: from sci4 (lbr-122-42.lbrsc.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.122.42]) by mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (8.9.2/8.9.2/8.9.2-ua) with SMTP id OAA21562 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 14:09:12 +1300 (NZDT) Subject: RE: Namers & Conversion Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 14:08:23 +1300 Message-ID: <001501bf3acf$66440bc0$2a7ad882@sci4> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0016_01BF3B3C.5D3D53C0" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 From: "Michael Parkinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01BF3B3C.5D3D53C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Andrew wrote, at one stage: This may be too soon to raise this issue, but how are we going to handle conversion for exisitng Namers. I suggest the following: 1) All ep on specials to be respent. That on rituals -> rituals, spells -> spells to avoid the time thing. [Michael's response:] I'd suggest refund time & ep both as we have previously. Yes it may be messy, but its more consistent with past changes to colleges and fair to the players of non-namers -- otherwise we opportunist namers could cash in those high ep magics for more medium price ones & get upto several months of free training time bonus. Furthermore, because of the different array of magic (when we eventually agree on it), may cause the player to give different priorities. Thus player respends upto all the time & may spend extra ep ONLY if they have it to spare. If they spend all their ep yet have time left over, then they have some downtime which presumably may be spent on name ranking. 2) Either the Namer gets access to the new spells, or they can keep the two or three other colleges they have. Its (2) that I am "concerned" about - because Namers have had 3 (?) spells, they have often been given lots of other colleges - Mind/E&E being the most common - I think 3-5 high namers have significant college chunks. On the other hand, sometimes someone has picked up one out-of-college spell (like so many other PCs), and should get to keep them. [Michael's response:] That seems fair. The reason why most namers have picked up the various forms of extension is because the GMs & players concerned felt that the then-extant college was too inadequate. Clearly the reality ripples from a better written college might alter that perception. ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01BF3B3C.5D3D53C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Namers & Conversion

Andrew=20 wrote, at one stage:

This may be too soon to raise this issue, = but how are=20 we going to handle conversion for exisitng Namers. I suggest the=20 following:

1) All ep on specials to be respent. That = on rituals=20 -> rituals, spells -> spells to avoid the time thing. =

[Michael's response:]

I'd suggest refund time & ep = both as we have=20 previously. Yes it may be messy, but its more consistent with past = changes to=20 colleges and fair to the players of non-namers  -- otherwise we = opportunist=20 namers could cash in those high ep magics for more medium price ones = & get=20 upto several months of free training time bonus.

Furthermore, because of the different array of magic (when we = eventually=20 agree on it), may cause the player to give different priorities. =20

Thus player respends upto all the time & may = spend extra=20 ep ONLY if they have it to spare.  If they spend all their ep yet = have time=20 left over, then they have some downtime which presumably may be spent on = name=20 ranking.

 2) Either the Namer gets = access to the new=20 spells, or they can keep the two or three other colleges they = have.

Its (2) that I am "concerned" = about -=20 because Namers have had 3 (?) spells, they have often been given lots of = other=20 colleges - Mind/E&E being the most common - I think 3-5 high namers = have=20 significant college chunks. On the other hand, sometimes someone has = picked up=20 one out-of-college spell (like so many other PCs), and should get to = keep=20 them.

[Michael's response:]

That seems fair.  The reason why most namers = have picked=20 up the various forms of extension is because the GMs & players = concerned=20 felt that the then-extant college was too inadequate.  Clearly the = reality=20 ripples from a better written college might alter that=20 perception.

 

------=_NextPart_000_0016_01BF3B3C.5D3D53C0-- -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Nov 30 15:37:32 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id PAA23783; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 15:28:33 +1300 Received: from mta3-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta3-rme.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id PAA23780 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 15:28:26 +1300 Received: from geocities.com ([203.99.70.172]) by mta3-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with ESMTP id <19991130021559.WISK1333179.mta3-rme@geocities.com>; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 15:15:59 +1300 Message-ID: <384333C4.45EDC169@geocities.com> Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 15:17:40 +1300 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: A challenge? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Dean Ellis To: dq-pub@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq-pub@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq-pub@dq.sf.org.nz A woman rides up on a jet black winged horse and gracefully dismounts. Her elegant clothing quietly whispers as she sits down in Kinlu fashion, close, without being too close. Her posture (polite without being demure) is that of one warrior respectfully deferring to a warrior of unknown strength or position, though probably strong in both. She awaits the attention of the swordsman...... Michael Parkinson wrote: > Late in the Month of Seedtime (i.e. 2nd month of Spring), > a stranger approaches the guild and announces: > > "I am Miyatomi Musashi, master swordsman of Kinlu. > I have never known defeat in battle. > Where is the Kingslayer? > I have journeyed far to match him steel for steel, > to see which of us is the greater." > > He then sits in a position overlooking the Sweetwater, beneath the > shade of a cherry tree -- where no-one can particularly remember > one growing ... > > > > -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Nov 30 16:25:13 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id QAA24005; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 16:21:28 +1300 Received: from kcbbs.gen.nz (kcbbs.gen.nz [202.14.102.1]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id QAA23999 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 16:21:25 +1300 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by kcbbs.gen.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA27974; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 16:02:53 +1300 (NZDT) Message-ID: <38433D65.6FAE365A@games.co.nz> Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 15:58:46 +1300 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: A challenge? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Jono Bean To: dq-pub@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq-pub@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq-pub@dq.sf.org.nz MP: GM: > Late in the Month of Seedtime (i.e. 2nd month of Spring), > > He then sits in a position overlooking the Sweetwater, beneath the > shade of a cherry tree -- where no-one can particularly remember > one growing ... JB Lath: Does anyone know the name of the nice man down near the river that is sitting under that apple tree? I think its strange that we all stop sleeping when the sun came up in the morning. -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Nov 30 16:31:17 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id QAA23990; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 16:17:38 +1300 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id QAA23987 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 16:17:37 +1300 Received: from paul (p262-tnt6.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.136.22]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id QAA21241 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 16:05:34 +1300 Message-ID: <004101bf3ae0$1db8d140$6564640a@paul> Subject: Re: Adventurers Wanted Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 16:07:29 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 From: "Paul Schmidt" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: "Paul Schmidt" , dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sounds suspicously like a contract on Father Rowan... > I believe my Pope has been corrupted by the black powers and is destoying > our people in a war against those who worship Chantress. The war and the > hatred has continued too long and I wish it to stop. To that end I pledge > 60,000 silvers to aid in his assasination. -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Nov 30 16:35:59 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id QAA24004; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 16:21:28 +1300 Received: from kcbbs.gen.nz (kcbbs.gen.nz [202.14.102.1]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id QAA23998 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 16:21:25 +1300 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by kcbbs.gen.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA27979 for dq@dq.sf.org.nz; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 16:02:54 +1300 (NZDT) Message-ID: <38433F17.15F8433B@games.co.nz> Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 16:05:59 +1300 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Adventurers needed. Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Jono Bean To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Late in the Month of Seedtime (i.e. 2nd month of Spring): A note is posted on the Guild notice board: "Help needed by Air Mage. I would like to hire 5 good Earth mages with Earth Elementals (or a few giants). I would like to hire a Engineerer that can help me build a damb. I would like to hire 2 Powerful E&E mages with the go fast spell. Also I would advise all persons owning land in the City of Calder to sell. Pay and living will have to be negotated. Please contact Lath. PS: I'm down watching that nice man under the apple tree near the river." -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Nov 30 16:40:05 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id QAA24069; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 16:33:30 +1300 Received: from peace.com (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id QAA24066 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 16:33:28 +1300 Message-ID: <3843429A.EABC2C61@peace.com> Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 16:20:58 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Adventurers Wanted Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Michael Woodhams To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Paul Schmidt wrote: > Sounds suspicously like a contract on Father Rowan... > > > I believe my Pope has been corrupted by the black powers and is destoying > > our people in a war against those who worship Chantress. The war and the > > hatred has continued too long and I wish it to stop. To that end I pledge > > 60,000 silvers to aid in his assasination. In that case, he should say so. He'd get *lots* more people wanting to go if they knew Fr Rowan was the target. :-) -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Nov 30 16:43:35 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id QAA24019; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 16:22:09 +1300 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id QAA24016 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 16:22:08 +1300 Received: from paul (p262-tnt6.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.136.22]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id QAA22031 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 16:10:04 +1300 Message-ID: <004a01bf3ae0$bf062700$6564640a@paul> Subject: Re: Good And Evil. Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 16:12:31 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 From: "Paul Schmidt" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: "Paul Schmidt" , dq@dq.sf.org.nz Introduce background Powers who are self made and originating, not a lot of > > old elves in drag. Introduce a mythic background evil, one so ancient yet > > nebulous it has corrupted and .... The demons -- > and especially the first demons -- may think of themselves as the biggest, > baddest kids on the block... course the point may be just that... they are just > the neighbourhood bullies compared to the really big things out there. Works > for me. No thats moere like it! Well, IMHO anyway :) Paul -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Nov 30 16:53:30 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id QAA24132; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 16:46:11 +1300 Received: from enterprise.iconz.co.nz (enterprise.iconz.co.nz [210.48.22.40]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id QAA24129 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 16:46:10 +1300 Received: (qmail 17469 invoked from network); 30 Nov 1999 03:34:42 -0000 Received: from mandos.internet.co.nz (HELO mandos) (210.48.42.117) by enterprise.iconz.co.nz with SMTP; 30 Nov 1999 03:34:42 -0000 Subject: RE: Adventurers Wanted Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 16:40:01 +1300 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 From: "Mandos D Shadowspawn Esq" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > > I believe my Pope has been corrupted by the black powers and is > > destoying our people in a war against those who worship > > Chantress. The war and the hatred has continued too long and > > I wish it to stop. To that end I pledge > > 60,000 silvers to aid in his assasination. > Sounds suspicously like a contract on Father Rowan... The man I seek killed is Pope Jeremiah the First. Head of the church of Chandra. Although I am here to end the religious wars that have beset my people I would wish that you would refrain from using the name of the False Prophet Rowan in my presence. -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Nov 30 17:23:27 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id RAA24184; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 17:14:43 +1300 Received: from qedweb.qed.co.nz ([203.97.23.140] (may be forged)) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id RAA24181 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 17:14:41 +1300 Received: by QEDWEB with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 17:01:04 +1300 Message-ID: Subject: RE: Adventurers Wanted Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 17:01:02 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain From: Stephen Martin To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Guild officials will discretely inform the Bishop that this is not an assassins guild and we do not sanction assassination, however we do have a few diplomats and accompanying mercenaries who may be able to help with your issue [guiding him to a meeting room]. Just a general note on using the dq lists, dq-pub is the list for information aimed at players, dq-list and dq-announce are for rules/campaign discussions. So if posting details of an adventure to be announced at the guild meeting then dq-announce is most appropriate including details such as Level, preferred playing nights, venue, GM (if it's not you), number of characters required, who's announcing it, where it's taking place (roughly where on Alusia or off-plane). If posting information for players, then use dq-pub. This is where you drop background info, rumours, etc. (level, night, venue, money and GM is also useful for players). Cheers, Stephen. > -----Original Message----- > From: Mandos D Shadowspawn Esq [SMTP:mandos@nexus.org.nz] > Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 1999 9:01 AM > To: dq-announce@dq.sf.org.nz > Subject: Adventurers Wanted > > > A gentleman in shadowy black enters the guild late one evening. Removing > his > cloak he informs Guild Security he is a bishop and he seeks to hire some > adventurers. > > I believe my Pope has been corrupted by the black powers and is destoying > our people in a war against those who worship Chantress. The war and the > hatred has continued too long and I wish it to stop. To that end I pledge > 60,000 silvers to aid in his assasination. > > > > > -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Nov 30 17:26:39 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id RAA24170; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 17:10:34 +1300 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id RAA24167 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 17:10:33 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p277-tnt6.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.136.37]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id QAA31140 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 16:58:28 +1300 Subject: Re: Good And Evil. Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 16:57:41 +1300 Message-ID: <01bf3ae7$0d244380$25886dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0020_01BF3B54.041D8B80" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01BF3B54.041D8B80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -----Original Message----- From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Date: Tuesday, 30 November 1999 08:57 Subject: Re: Good And Evil. =20 =20 Jim Arona wrote:=20 Your rationalisation, which may work well for you, says that = demons are=20 more connected to elves and dragons. [snip]=20 On top of which, your rationalisation implies several things = that I=20 don't like.=20 1) I might reasonably assume that there was a race of = Angels, some of=20 whom Fell. Over time, the race faded away, leaving only Angels, = Demons, and=20 the pathetic relict of a once great race, that we know today as = elves. This is an interesting idea, but not what I have suggested. = Drawing this inference suggests that you have either not read, or not = understood what I have written. Disagreeing with me is just fine... but = disagreeing with me over things I haven't suggested seems a bit foolish = and a waste of a good argument. :)=20 =20 Well, I've read it, and it seems to me that the critical actions, as = far as demons were concerned, lay squarely in the hands of Dragons and = elves...There is no human agency in any of it. And, ultimately, that's = where the focus should lie. Demons are a human concern, not some other = weird fantasy race. They are a nightmare we shared with ourselves, not = some mythical race with pointy ears. 3) They are part of a race, and therefore have an ecology, = admittedly,=20 one that may no longer pertain. They had a culture, involved = themselves in=20 breeding, and had relationships.=20 I don't like point 1 and 3 is because it creates the = impression that=20 they are closer to humanity. They are like us, they share, or = shared,=20 similar kinds of interest. =20 In Hebrew mythology at least the Angels certainly did involve = themselves in relationships and breeding -- not amongst themselves = perhaps, but with mortal women... rather dispelling the myth that angels = are sexless.=20 Genesis 6:4 (English-NIV): The Nephilim were on the earth in those = days--and also afterward--when the sons of God went to the daughters of = men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of = renown.=20 =20 No. The Nephilim walked with men. There were angels that walked = with men, according to Enoch anyway, under the leadership of ...some = angel whose name starts with s, ...Can't remember, right at the moment. =20 However, they brought arts and skills to men. Some of them = decided to muck around with the daughters of men, producing Nephilim, = but, the story proceeds from there. We might hazard some guesses as to = the nature of those angels, but we (as storytellers) know what they were = like. =20 I don't think Demons or Angels should be like humans. In fact, I = think=20 it's best if they aren't like us, at all.There may be areas that = make them=20 seem similar, for example, Nebiros' loyalty... Does Nebiros go by some other name or names? He sounds like an = interesting (if twisted chap) -- but I can't find him in my usual = sources: Solomonic Manuscripts, Davidson's Dictionary of Angels, etc.=20 Naberius, in the Lemegeton. The Valiant Marquis, I think. Jim. ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01BF3B54.041D8B80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Martin Dickson <martind@peace.com>
To: = dq@dq.sf.org.nz <dq@dq.sf.org.nz>
Date:=20 Tuesday, 30 November 1999 08:57
Subject: Re: Good And=20 Evil.

Jim Arona wrote:=20
    Your rationalisation, = which=20 may work well for you, says that demons are
more connected = to elves=20 and dragons.
[snip]=20
    On top of which, your=20 rationalisation implies several things that I
don't like.=20
    1) I might reasonably assume that there = was a=20 race of Angels, some of
whom Fell. Over time, the race faded = away,=20 leaving only Angels, Demons, and
the pathetic relict of a = once great=20 race, that we know today as elves.
This is an = interesting idea,=20 but not what I have suggested.  Drawing this inference suggests = that=20 you have either not read, or not understood what I have = written. =20 Disagreeing with me is just fine... but disagreeing with me over = things I=20 haven't suggested seems a bit foolish and a waste of a good = argument. =20 :)   Well,=20 I've read it, and it seems to me that the critical actions, as far = as demons=20 were concerned, lay squarely in the hands of Dragons and = elves...There is no=20 human agency in any of it. And, ultimately, that's where the focus = should=20 lie. Demons are a human concern, not some other weird fantasy race. = They are=20 a nightmare we shared with ourselves, not some mythical race with = pointy=20 ears.
    3) They are part of a = race,=20 and therefore have an ecology, admittedly,
one that may no = longer=20 pertain. They had a culture, involved themselves in =
breeding, and=20 had relationships.=20

    I don't like point 1 and 3 is because it = creates=20 the impression that
they are closer to humanity. They are = like us,=20 they share, or shared,
similar kinds of = interest.

In=20 Hebrew mythology at least the Angels certainly did involve = themselves in=20 relationships and breeding -- not amongst themselves perhaps, but = with=20 mortal women... rather dispelling the myth that angels are sexless.=20

Genesis 6:4 (English-NIV): The Nephilim were on the earth in = those=20 days--and also afterward--when the sons of God went to the daughters = of men=20 and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of = renown.=20

    No. The=20 Nephilim walked with men. There were angels that walked with men, = according=20 to Enoch anyway, under the leadership of ...some angel whose name = starts=20 with s, ...Can't remember, right at the moment.

    However, they brought arts and skills to men. Some of them = decided to=20 muck around with the daughters of men, producing Nephilim, but, the = story=20 proceeds from there. We might hazard some guesses as to the nature = of those=20 angels, but we (as storytellers) know what they were = like.

I don't think Demons or Angels should be = like=20 humans. In fact, I think
it's best if they aren't like us, = at=20 all.There may be areas that make them
seem similar, for = example,=20 Nebiros' loyalty...
Does Nebiros go by some other = name or names?=20 He sounds like an interesting (if twisted chap) -- but I can't find = him in=20 my usual sources: Solomonic Manuscripts, Davidson's Dictionary of = Angels,=20 etc.     Naberius, = in the=20 Lemegeton. The Valiant Marquis, I think. Jim. ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01BF3B54.041D8B80-- -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Nov 30 17:38:44 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id RAA24239; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 17:30:44 +1300 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id RAA24236 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 17:30:42 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p277-tnt6.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.136.37]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id RAA02249 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 17:18:38 +1300 Subject: Re: Evil and Good. Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 17:17:53 +1300 Message-ID: <01bf3ae9$df715240$25886dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Daniel Dixon wrote: > >With such things as Demons or any other super-natural (as much as it is), >mythical, or un-explainable phenomena there should be able to be any number >of view points peacefully co-existing in the world. No one should be able to >define how many demons/archangels there are, what exactly there name is or >when their birthday exactly occurs. GMs can make it up as they go along, >these things don't have to be definite, it then becomes too constraining for >everyone. RPGs are not a set of games about rules they are a set of rules >about games. The fun games are the ones where the rules get bent. > >Although I applaude the rational debate and the valuable research I think >that it should be possible for each and every GM to define the way these >mythical/mystical/mysterious phenomena work. That way the myths and legends >can truly function like myths and legends do. Unspecific, able to be >interpreted in many ways, as slippery as the language that defines them. For >some the stories of the elves make sense and on one adventure theose legends >hold true, on another the demons are old dragons, another they come from >beyond the stars. Mythical deconstructionism > >I am not trying to apply this point to the rules, I still believe that there >needs to be an understood and implemented uniformly. However from a story >telling point of view the game needs to be fluid and campaing details need >to change to fit the plot. > Exactly. Jim. -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Nov 30 17:41:17 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id RAA24226; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 17:28:44 +1300 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id RAA24223 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 17:28:42 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p277-tnt6.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.136.37]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id RAA01900 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 17:16:37 +1300 Subject: Re: Demonology Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 17:15:51 +1300 Message-ID: <01bf3ae9$96d51080$25886dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz -----Original Message----- From: Mandos D Shadowspawn Esq To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Date: Tuesday, 30 November 1999 08:56 Subject: RE: Demonology >> I'm not trying to establish a background, beyond pointing out, in >> general terms, where my view on Demons is different. Given that >> Demons are a fundamental part of the universe, any definition of their >nature >> needs to be extremely general. That way, it does less damage to the >integrity of other >> DM's games. > >"hat's Crap" is not a general term for discribing a view as different. You >have not really given any real reasons as to why Martins view is not >acceptable to you nor have you given any examples to show why you dislike >it. What is a real reason, George? The fact that I think it draws the focus of demons to far away from humanity? That is my central point. Another reason I don't like it is that it establishes ground rules in my world, that I have no say in. Not only do I have to know that such a rationalisation exists, I have to get my hands on it, and read it. That should never be the case. And, in fact, it isn't. I refuse to allow such a thing into my game. I dislike it because it seeks to tie things up. It says that there is a connection between dragons, elves, demons and angels. When you look for a human anywhere, you have to wait for several ages of the world to pass. In comparison, the Bible cuts to people at a breakneck speed. It is a book that purports to concern itself with the spiritual development of humans, after all. As our discussion about the bible goes colour and interest are where you >find it and I would still like to know the reasons for your dislike of >Martins ideology in a more specific sence. No, George. You have said that colour and interest are where you find them. I haven't said that at all. You may find the Bible colourless and boring, but it still has an impact on our society, because as a document, it has helped form our understanding of moral and ethical issues. I don't disagree that it isn't flawed, where it isn't downright contradictory. Nevertheless, it has spurred the theological debates of people like Thomas Aquinas, and Bishop Spong. It has contributed to painting, music, literature, dance....every human art we own, and whether or not you like to admit it, it has a powerful effect on this particular artform as well. If you don't want to use the material, fine. You don't have to. It is a resource to call upon, should you decide otherwise, however.Martin's genesis story isn't something that we can just say is an interpretation. It is established as a rock solid certainty. > >I am a little confused also as to the other threads about this topic. >Everyone agreed that good/evil did not need to be defined any more, but then >most seem to want an Ultimate Good/Evil behind the forces we use in the >game. Isn't that more of a definition of the powers or have I >misinterperated something? You have misinterpreted something. This is not a discussion about good and evil, except where these concepts pertain to demons and angels, etc. I believe you are perilously close to misquoting me, too, although you haven't done it yet. I have used a term, 'elemental evil'. I use this term to describe something that has no choice but to be evil. It is not the same as Ultimate evil. It is, however, a statement about the choice of whether or not something can be good or not. Things that are elementally evil do not have that choice. This means that redemption is not an option for these creatures. They may have good qualities, that helps create the appropriate contrast by which one might see the abysmal depths of wickedness that such an entity might own. They are, however, not good, and cannot be. > >> What? How do you come to that conclusion? The Bible is extremely >> colourful and has heaps of flavour. It lacks integrity, but then it's the >> work of many different authors, and lots of different translations. If you >> mean it can sustain lots of interpretations, then yes, it can. >> That doesn't have any effect on its colour and flavour. Some of those >> interpretations may lack colour, etc, I suppose. > >Apart from the cute rambling of the chaps who seem to like the mushrooms a >wee bit too much I find the Bible to be very uniflavoured in the Good/Evil >department. It wavers between unlikly parables of good and vengeful >nastiness from God on the bad side. But as I said colour is hwere you find >it :-) > And said it, and said it. I don't believe that you have made much of an effort, really, George. If that were the case, the Song of Songs would have warranted a mention in the colourful and interesting parts. First and second Kings would be in there, too, somewhere. Jim. -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Nov 30 17:56:44 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id RAA24284; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 17:42:49 +1300 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id RAA24281 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 17:42:48 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p277-tnt6.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.136.37]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id RAA04597 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 17:30:43 +1300 Subject: Re: Adventurers Wanted Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 17:29:58 +1300 Message-ID: <01bf3aeb$8f4bd360$25886dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Hmmmm... ....Now, where did I put that Hellfire, again.... Rowan Velcanthus, S.C. -----Original Message----- From: Michael Woodhams To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Date: Tuesday, 30 November 1999 16:28 Subject: Re: Adventurers Wanted >Paul Schmidt wrote: > >> Sounds suspicously like a contract on Father Rowan... >> >> > I believe my Pope has been corrupted by the black powers and is destoying >> > our people in a war against those who worship Chantress. The war and the >> > hatred has continued too long and I wish it to stop. To that end I pledge >> > 60,000 silvers to aid in his assasination. > >In that case, he should say so. He'd get *lots* more people wanting to go if >they knew Fr Rowan was the target. :-) > > > > > >-- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- > -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Nov 30 17:59:27 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id RAA24293; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 17:43:35 +1300 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id RAA24290 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 17:43:33 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p277-tnt6.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.136.37]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id RAA04721 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 17:31:29 +1300 Subject: Re: Adventurers Wanted Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 17:30:44 +1300 Message-ID: <01bf3aeb$aacab480$25886dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Bugger. Rowan Velcanthus, S.C. -----Original Message----- From: Mandos D Shadowspawn Esq To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Date: Tuesday, 30 November 1999 16:41 Subject: RE: Adventurers Wanted >> > I believe my Pope has been corrupted by the black powers and is >> > destoying our people in a war against those who worship >> > Chantress. The war and the hatred has continued too long and >> > I wish it to stop. To that end I pledge >> > 60,000 silvers to aid in his assasination. > >> Sounds suspicously like a contract on Father Rowan... > >The man I seek killed is Pope Jeremiah the First. Head of the church of >Chandra. > >Although I am here to end the religious wars that have beset my people I >would wish that you would refrain from using the name of the False Prophet >Rowan in my presence. > > > > >-- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- > -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Nov 30 18:02:48 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id RAA24259; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 17:37:50 +1300 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id RAA24256 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 17:37:47 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p277-tnt6.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.136.37]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id RAA03695 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 17:25:42 +1300 Subject: Re: Evil and Good. Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 17:24:57 +1300 Message-ID: <01bf3aea$dc05f740$25886dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz -----Original Message----- From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Date: Tuesday, 30 November 1999 11:40 Subject: Re: Evil and Good. >Daniel Dixon (at syzgy.net) wrote: > >> I am not trying to apply this point to the rules, I still believe that there >> needs to be an understood and implemented uniformly. However from a story >> telling point of view the game needs to be fluid and campaing details need >> to change to fit the plot. > >This is obviously a matter of personal taste and perspective. > >If details change part way through a movie or book I will think it is a either a >cunning plot device (that will be explained later) or a continuity error. If I >get to the end and it's not explained I'll be certain it's a continuity error. If that is the case, then it is even more imperative that not too much of the world is defined. If it is, then it becomes harder and harder to run. The story gives meaning to the game, the game does NOT give meaning to the story. > >The matter of perspective and taste runs to whether this consistency can/should >be expected in roleplaying "per episode" or through a character's eyes >throughout their life. > >By analogy, if I go to a foreign country I expect strange laws and odd customs, >but I don't expect the laws and customs of my own country to change (and >possibly change back again) with no explanation -- that would be a continuity >error, and I might be justifies in thinking I'd slipped into a Twilight Zone >story. If you go to a different country, you're too busy worrying about what's going on around you to worry about what's going on at home, in the way of laws. Well, except for the customs laws. However, if you went away, would you expect the rumours that you left behind to be the same? And if they weren't the same, how distressed would you be? If your argument is that consistency is critically important to the game, then a counterargument is that you shouldn't define any more of the universe than you need to. And the fact is, we don't need to know how the universe started. We have a mysterious past to use as a fountain of lies. Jim. -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Nov 30 18:07:30 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id SAA24349; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 18:02:22 +1300 Received: from peace.com (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id SAA24346 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 18:02:20 +1300 Message-ID: <3843574E.F6D410F8@peace.com> Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 17:49:18 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Good And Evil. Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Jim Arona wrote:
Well, I've read it, and it seems to me that the critical actions, as far as demons were concerned, lay squarely in the hands of Dragons and elves...There is no human agency in any of it. And, ultimately, that's where the focus should lie. Demons are a human concern, not some other weird fantasy race. They are a nightmare we shared with ourselves, not some mythical race with pointy ears.
Of course demons are a human concern in our world... wait a moment while I count the number of sentient races... "one"... let me check that... "one".  :)  :)

In our world there are only humans... and races with pointy ears are mythical.  But they aren't mythical in the game world of DQ.  I can see a reasonable objection on the grounds that the story is less engaging if we divorce it from humans, because we as the players are human, no matter the race of our characters.  The flip side is that the races that we play who aren't human should have their own stories so that they feel an integral part of the fantasy world and not just humans with pointy ears.  By tying them to a story that is essentially human in the real world we may convey some emotion into the game world and create a story with more impact.

Genesis 6:4 (English-NIV): The Nephilim were on the earth in those days--and also afterward--when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.

    No. The Nephilim walked with men. There were angels that walked with men, according to Enoch anyway, under the leadership of ...some angel whose name starts with s, ...Can't remember, right at the moment.

    However, they brought arts and skills to men. Some of them decided to muck around with the daughters of men, producing Nephilim, but, the story proceeds from there. We might hazard some guesses as to the nature of those angels, but we (as storytellers) know what they were like.


The term "Nephilim" seems to get used for a number of different purposes.  It may mean giants, or fallen angels, or the offspring of fallen angels... it's a bit confused like most occult things.

The name I have for the head of the Nephilim is "Helel"... but given how many names these guys end up with I don't doubt there is one starting with "S".
 

Does Nebiros go by some other name or names? He sounds like an interesting (if twisted chap) -- but I can't find him in my usual sources: Solomonic Manuscripts, Davidson's Dictionary of Angels, etc.
    Naberius, in the Lemegeton. The Valiant Marquis, I think.


Rats.  Still can't find him... slippery little bugger.  :)

Cheers,
            Martin

--

 _/_/  Peace Software New Zealand Ltd   Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com
_/     Martin Dickson                   Fax  : +64-9-373-0401
       Analyst                          Phone: +64-9-373-0400
  -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Nov 30 18:53:20 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id SAA24414; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 18:40:16 +1300 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id SAA24411 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 18:40:14 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p277-tnt6.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.136.37]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id SAA12131 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 18:28:06 +1300 Subject: Re: Good And Evil. Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 18:27:21 +1300 Message-ID: <01bf3af3$93e0a420$25886dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0071_01BF3B60.8AD9EC20" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0071_01BF3B60.8AD9EC20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -----Original Message----- From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Date: Tuesday, 30 November 1999 17:55 Subject: Re: Good And Evil. =20 =20 Jim Arona wrote:=20 Well, I've read it, and it seems to me that the critical actions, as = far as demons were concerned, lay squarely in the hands of Dragons and = elves...There is no human agency in any of it. And, ultimately, that's = where the focus should lie. Demons are a human concern, not some other = weird fantasy race. They are a nightmare we shared with ourselves, not = some mythical race with pointy ears. Of course demons are a human concern in our world... wait a = moment while I count the number of sentient races... "one"... let me = check that... "one". :) :)=20 =20 I know this, Martin.=20 In our world there are only humans... and races with pointy ears are = mythical. But they aren't mythical in the game world of DQ. I can see = a reasonable objection on the grounds that the story is less engaging if = we divorce it from humans, because we as the players are human, no = matter the race of our characters. The flip side is that the races that = we play who aren't human should have their own stories so that they feel = an integral part of the fantasy world and not just humans with pointy = ears. By tying them to a story that is essentially human in the real = world we may convey some emotion into the game world and create a story = with more impact.=20 =20 =20 =20 I don't agree.=20 =20 I invite you to look around the real world. The world is full of = only one sentient race. No elves, no dwarfs, no orcs, etc. =20 When we tell stories, we don't tell them to these weird fantasy = races. We tell them to humans. Whatever their players may think they = are, most DMs are convinced that players are human. Because they are.=20 =20 Now, I'm aware that roleplayers have a higher mutant quotient = than their demographic would normally suggest, but even so, they are = still mostly human. =20 You can give validation to animals in other ways, most = noticeably in the fact that they are so powerful when compared to = humans. I think it's desirablie to establish some theme of greatness to = give the human characters something to hold onto. The others can see in = the darkness. Humans have great stories because their spirits are great. =20 But that is a personal position. You may feel otherwise. =20 Genesis 6:4 (English-NIV): The Nephilim were on the earth in those = days--and also afterward--when the sons of God went to the daughters of = men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of = renown.=20 No. The Nephilim walked with men. There were angels that = walked with men, according to Enoch anyway, under the leadership of = ...some angel whose name starts with s, ...Can't remember, right at the = moment.=20 =20 However, they brought arts and skills to men. Some of = them decided to muck around with the daughters of men, producing = Nephilim, but, the story proceeds from there. We might hazard some = guesses as to the nature of those angels, but we (as storytellers) know = what they were like. =20 =20 The term "Nephilim" seems to get used for a number of different = purposes. It may mean giants, or fallen angels, or the offspring of = fallen angels... it's a bit confused like most occult things.=20 =20 The name I have for the head of the Nephilim is "Helel"... but given = how many names these guys end up with I don't doubt there is one = starting with "S".=20 =20 No, the leader of the angels that taught men arts and = skills...His name was 'S' something. =20 I can't remember the exact quote, but I remember reading = something along the lines that 'they were giants in those days, for they = were the offspring of the sons of God and the daughter of men...' =20 Something like that, anyway. =20 =20 Does Nebiros go by some other name or names? He sounds like an = interesting (if twisted chap) -- but I can't find him in my usual = sources: Solomonic Manuscripts, Davidson's Dictionary of Angels, etc. Naberius, in the Lemegeton. The Valiant Marquis, I = think. =20 Rats. Still can't find him... slippery little bugger. :)=20 =20 He's the horse.=20 =20 Jim =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0071_01BF3B60.8AD9EC20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Martin Dickson <martind@peace.com>
To: = dq@dq.sf.org.nz <dq@dq.sf.org.nz>
Date:=20 Tuesday, 30 November 1999 17:55
Subject: Re: Good And=20 Evil.

Jim Arona wrote:=20
Well,=20 I've read it, and it seems to me that the critical actions, = as far=20 as demons were concerned, lay squarely in the hands of = Dragons and=20 elves...There is no human agency in any of it. And, = ultimately,=20 that's where the focus should lie. Demons are a human = concern, not=20 some other weird fantasy race. They are a nightmare we = shared with=20 ourselves, not some mythical race with pointy=20 ears.
Of course demons are a human concern = in our=20 world... wait a moment while I count the number of sentient races... = "one"... let me check that... "one".  = :)  :)=20       I know = this, Martin.=20

In our world there are only humans... and races with pointy ears = are=20 mythical.  But they aren't mythical in the game world of = DQ.  I=20 can see a reasonable objection on the grounds that the story is less = engaging if we divorce it from humans, because we as the players are = human,=20 no matter the race of our characters.  The flip side is that = the races=20 that we play who aren't human should have their own stories so that = they=20 feel an integral part of the fantasy world and not just humans with = pointy=20 ears.  By tying them to a story that is essentially human in = the real=20 world we may convey some emotion into the game world and create a = story with=20 more impact.=20

 

    I don't agree.=20

    I invite you to look around the real world. The world is = full of only=20 one sentient race. No elves, no dwarfs, no orcs, = etc.

    When we tell stories, we don't tell them to these = weird=20 fantasy races. We tell them to humans. Whatever their players may = think they=20 are, most DMs are convinced that players are human. Because they = are.=20

   =20 Now, I'm aware that roleplayers have a higher mutant quotient than = their=20 demographic would normally suggest, but even so, they are still = mostly=20 human. 

    You can give = validation to=20 animals in other ways, most noticeably in the fact that they are so = powerful=20 when compared to humans. I think it's desirablie to establish some = theme of=20 greatness to give the human characters something to hold onto. The = others=20 can see in the darkness. Humans have great stories because their = spirits are=20 great. 

    But that is a = personal=20 position. You may feel otherwise. 

Genesis=20 6:4 (English-NIV): The Nephilim were on the earth in those = days--and=20 also afterward--when the sons of God went to the daughters = of men=20 and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men = of=20 renown.=20

    = No. The Nephilim walked with men. There were = angels that=20 walked with men, according to Enoch anyway, under the = leadership of=20 ...some angel whose name starts with s, ...Can't remember, = right at=20 the moment.=20

    = However, they brought arts and skills to men. Some = of them=20 decided to muck around with the daughters of men, producing=20 Nephilim, but, the story proceeds from there. We might = hazard some=20 guesses as to the nature of those angels, but we (as = storytellers)=20 know what they were = like.


The term "Nephilim" seems to get used for a number = of=20 different purposes.  It may mean giants, or fallen angels, or = the=20 offspring of fallen angels... it's a bit confused like most occult = things.=20

The name I have for the head of the Nephilim is = "Helel"... but=20 given how many names these guys end up with I don't doubt there is = one=20 starting with "S".=20

    No, the leader=20 of the angels that taught men arts and skills...His name was 'S'=20 something.

    I can't remember the exact quote, but I remember reading = something=20 along the lines that 'they were giants in those days, for they were = the=20 offspring of the sons of God and the daughter of = men...'

    Something like that, anyway.
  =  

Does=20 Nebiros go by some other name or names? He sounds like an=20 interesting (if twisted chap) -- but I can't find him in my = usual=20 sources: Solomonic Manuscripts, Davidson's Dictionary of = Angels,=20 etc.
    = Naberius, in the Lemegeton. The Valiant Marquis, I = think.


Rats.  Still can't find him... slippery little = bugger.  :)=20

He's the horse.=20

Jim 

------=_NextPart_000_0071_01BF3B60.8AD9EC20-- -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Nov 30 19:37:33 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id TAA24486; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 19:29:52 +1300 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id TAA24483 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 19:29:51 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p277-tnt6.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.136.37]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id TAA17497 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 19:17:37 +1300 Subject: Re: Good And Evil. Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 19:16:54 +1300 Message-ID: <01bf3afa$7fcc6580$25886dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0084_01BF3B67.76C5AD80" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0084_01BF3B67.76C5AD80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -----Original Message----- From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Date: Tuesday, 30 November 1999 17:55 Subject: Re: Good And Evil. =20 =20 Jim Arona wrote:=20 Well, I've read it, and it seems to me that the critical actions, as = far as demons were concerned, lay squarely in the hands of Dragons and = elves...There is no human agency in any of it. And, ultimately, that's = where the focus should lie. Demons are a human concern, not some other = weird fantasy race. They are a nightmare we shared with ourselves, not = some mythical race with pointy ears. Of course demons are a human concern in our world... wait a = moment while I count the number of sentient races... "one"... let me = check that... "one". :) :)=20 In our world there are only humans... and races with pointy ears are = mythical. But they aren't mythical in the game world of DQ. I can see = a reasonable objection on the grounds that the story is less engaging if = we divorce it from humans, because we as the players are human, no = matter the race of our characters. The flip side is that the races that = we play who aren't human should have their own stories so that they feel = an integral part of the fantasy world and not just humans with pointy = ears. By tying them to a story that is essentially human in the real = world we may convey some emotion into the game world and create a story = with more impact.=20 =20 =20 =20 No, I don't agree. Animals have too many advantages already. = They don't need to be tied into the game. Humans need to find something = to make them special. Animals have their racial abilities to make them = feel warm at night. =20 Jim. =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0084_01BF3B67.76C5AD80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Martin Dickson <martind@peace.com>
To: = dq@dq.sf.org.nz <dq@dq.sf.org.nz>
Date:=20 Tuesday, 30 November 1999 17:55
Subject: Re: Good And=20 Evil.

Jim Arona wrote:=20
Well,=20 I've read it, and it seems to me that the critical actions, = as far=20 as demons were concerned, lay squarely in the hands of = Dragons and=20 elves...There is no human agency in any of it. And, = ultimately,=20 that's where the focus should lie. Demons are a human = concern, not=20 some other weird fantasy race. They are a nightmare we = shared with=20 ourselves, not some mythical race with pointy=20 ears.
Of course demons are a human concern = in our=20 world... wait a moment while I count the number of sentient races... = "one"... let me check that... "one".  = :)  :)=20

In our world there are only humans... and races with pointy ears = are=20 mythical.  But they aren't mythical in the game world of = DQ.  I=20 can see a reasonable objection on the grounds that the story is less = engaging if we divorce it from humans, because we as the players are = human,=20 no matter the race of our characters.  The flip side is that = the races=20 that we play who aren't human should have their own stories so that = they=20 feel an integral part of the fantasy world and not just humans with = pointy=20 ears.  By tying them to a story that is essentially human in = the real=20 world we may convey some emotion into the game world and create a = story with=20 more impact.=20

 

    No, I don't=20 agree. Animals have too many advantages already. They don't need to = be tied=20 into the game. Humans need to find something to make them special. = Animals=20 have their racial abilities to make them feel warm at=20 night.

   =20 Jim. 

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