I like Mandos' idea for an obscurement spell that stops the targets of the
spell from being able to detect the adept.  However, I think that it is no
longer an Undetectibility spell, but an altogether different kind of beast.

Suggestion A :

Undetectibility
Range : 30' + 30' / Rank
Duration : Concentration, max 10 min + 10 / Rank
Experience Multiple : 350
Resist : Active and Passive.
Storage : Potion
Effects: This spell causes 1 target entity who has a mind (+ 1 / rank) to
be unable to directly detect the Adept using any of their senses.  Each
time the adept is too intrusive upon a target, they immediately get another
resistance check (eg in their field of vision within 15', makes a loud
noise within 10', pushes, hits or trips the target, or comes within 10' of
a target with a good sense of smell).  Note that a perceptive target may
still determine the adepts whereabouts indirectly, by such means as seeing
footprints being created, observing shadows created by a light source the
adept carries, or noting the reactions of unaffected entites.  A Mind Cloak
add 20% (+ 2/Rank of Mind Cloak) to a targets chance of passively resisting
this spell.

Reasonings :
Range - needs to be reasonably large because it is not an overly aggressive
spell, and the adept should be able to affect targets some distance away.
Duration - making it Concentration stops the adept from being able to cast
other concentration spells (such as Control Animal, Control Person,
Phantasm, Telekinesis)
EP - just a rough figure : needs fine tuning once effects are finalised
Resistance - all targeted spells should be actively resistable.
Effects - tried to develop Mandos's core idea, without trying to
accommodate suggested features that are better applied to an obscurement
spell along the lines of the existing Undetectibility.  I think it needs to
have a high number of targets since they get to resist anyway (about 1 in 3
plebs will), and it is not any overly aggressive spell.  Note also that the
adept may not be sure which targets are actually affected, and which ones
resisted.  Perhaps the "another resistance check" should be changed to
automatically break the spell with respect to that target.  The "too
intrusive" part is to stop the obvious
pummel-the-heck-out-of-the-poor-sod-who-failed-to-resist.


A spell such as the above is so far removed from the existing
Undetectibility that there is still room for an Undetectibility spell
similar to the existing version.  Here is a version that tries to
incorporate the suggested requirements :

Ignorance
Range : Touch
Duration : 10 min + 10 / Rank
Experience Multiple : 350
Resist : None
Storage : Potion, Magical Trap
Effects: This spell causes the target to project a field of unimportance
around themselves to a range of 100' (+ 20 / Rank).  Entities with minds
within this area will treat the target as unimportant, and not worthy of
any attention, provided that the target does not do anything to draw
attention to themselves (such as casting a spell in a church, firing a bolt
at a guard, or flying over a town wall).  If the target becomes too
difficult to ignore, then the people who notice them will no longer be
affected by the spell.  Being within the sight or smell range, or making
noise with the hearing range, of 2 x the PC of the potential detector (-1'
/ Rank), will make the target too difficult to ignore.  An entity with a
Mind Cloak will not be influenced by the unimportance field projected by
this spell. 


Between them, these two spells cover almost all the requirements that have
been suggested, and, I believe, fit nicely within the College with respect
to the way they produce their effects.

Feel free to tinker with them if there are aspects you don't like.
Suggestions for improvement, and comments regarding your personal feeling
of the spells is welcome.  Vitriol and personal attacks are not.

Cheers,
	Brent.


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Some questions/comments below

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Brent Jackson [mailto:salient@kcbbs.gen.nz]
> 
> Undetectibility
> [...] Each
> time the adept is too intrusive upon a target, they 
> immediately get another
> resistance check (eg in their field of vision within 15', makes a loud
> noise within 10', pushes, hits or trips the target, or comes 
> within 10' of
> a target with a good sense of smell).  Note that a perceptive 
> target may
> still determine the adepts whereabouts indirectly, by such 
> means as seeing
> footprints being created, observing shadows created by a 
> light source the
> adept carries, or noting the reactions of unaffected entities. 

Did you mean to include in things triggering a new resistance check
something like 'targets a spell on them'?

> 
> Reasonings :
> Range - needs to be reasonably large because it is not an 
> overly aggressive
> spell, and the adept should be able to affect targets some 
> distance away.

that are so far away that they won't notice the adept casting, or that the
adept can distinguish through Telepathy (assuming it is included in the list
of Telepathy-targetable spells)

> Duration - making it Concentration stops the adept from being 
> able to cast
> other concentration spells (such as Control Animal, Control Person,
> Phantasm, Telekinesis)

And additional casts to lessen the number of entities who resist all
instances of this spell cast.
But not any number of attack spells (invested or otherwise)

[...]  Note 
> also that the
> adept may not be sure which targets are actually affected, 
> and which ones
> resisted.  

Which means that you have to assume each one resisted, which makes it rather
less useful I would have thought?

> 
> 
> A spell such as the above is so far removed from the existing
> Undetectibility that there is still room for an Undetectibility spell
> similar to the existing version.  

Fair enough. 2 spells nothing like existing version would also be fine.

> Here is a version that tries to
> incorporate the suggested requirements :
> 
> Ignorance
> Range : Touch
> Duration : 10 min + 10 / Rank
> Experience Multiple : 350
> Resist : None
> Storage : Potion, Magical Trap
> Effects: This spell causes the target to project a field of 
> unimportance
> around themselves to a range of 100' (+ 20 / Rank).  Entities 
> with minds
> within this area will treat the target as unimportant.... 

Ian W has thoughts along these lines too ("elements of 'Illusion of
Innocence' and 'Charismatic Aura'" he said last night before flying back to
Oz this morning) - he hopes to be able to participate at some stage over the
next couple of weeks.

I think this approach has definite promise

> Being within the sight or smell range, or making
> noise with the hearing range, of 2 x the PC of the potential detector (-1'
> / Rank), will make the target too difficult to ignore.  

[suggested rephrasing]
Being within 2xPC' (-1'/rank) of the potential detector, and otherwise
noticeable by any normal sense will make the target too difficult to ignore.

This, I think, covers stuff like not being smelt out in a crowd of peasants
- unless you are using a particularly pungent eau de cologne, and the
peasants smell like, well, peasants.

Do you intend to have the ability to brush through a crowd of low PC
commoners at moderate ranks? As currently written the perceptive ones (like
pickpockets?!) would notice you if you got close, but not the snivelling
masses.

> An entity with a
> Mind Cloak will not be influenced by the unimportance field projected by
> this spell. 

Seems right

Cheers
Errol


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Smiles for Brent's Ignorance style spell.
In my mind it is simple, elegant and role playable.
This one would be a keeper if we can get it into the
system without having to have too many mechanics :-)

Cheers G.

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
Brent Jackson
Sent: Thursday, 21 February 2002 1:24 a.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: [dq] Undetectability - Other options.


Ignorance
Range : Touch
Duration : 10 min + 10 / Rank
Experience Multiple : 350
Resist : None
Storage : Potion, Magical Trap
Effects: This spell causes the target to project a field of unimportance
around themselves to a range of 100' (+ 20 / Rank).  Entities with minds
within this area will treat the target as unimportant, and not worthy of
any attention, provided that the target does not do anything to draw
attention to themselves (such as casting a spell in a church, firing a bolt
at a guard, or flying over a town wall).  If the target becomes too
difficult to ignore, then the people who notice them will no longer be
affected by the spell.  Being within the sight or smell range, or making
noise with the hearing range, of 2 x the PC of the potential detector (-1'
/ Rank), will make the target too difficult to ignore.  An entity with a
Mind Cloak will not be influenced by the unimportance field projected by
this spell. 


Between them, these two spells cover almost all the requirements that have
been suggested, and, I believe, fit nicely within the College with respect
to the way they produce their effects.

Feel free to tinker with them if there are aspects you don't like.
Suggestions for improvement, and comments regarding your personal feeling
of the spells is welcome.  Vitriol and personal attacks are not.

Cheers,
	Brent.


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At 11:55 20/02/02 +1300, you wrote:
>Jackie - what are your objections to casting on observers instead of the
>sneaks? They not be insurmountable.
>
>If the objection is 'you can only get past a few people', I don't think this
>is a good objection - it is a suitable limitation on a spell that gives you
>invisibility with immunity to witchsight.

No, although I do think the number of targets in George's version is a 
little restrictive, given the prohibitively high EM.

No, it's more that the spell could not then be used proactively, but only 
reactively. By which point it's probably too late.

If an E&E wants to sneak past an entrance he or she knows to be guarded, 
the E&E casts invisibility some distance away and sneaks past happily - 
assuming they're humans. In George's version of Indetectability, the Mind 
Mage would have to be close enough to see the guards to target them, cast 
quite possibly within their hearing, and then gets done over by the other 
guy who was just around the corner, out of sight. This does not work...

Like Martin, it never occurred to me that someone would devise a version of 
Indetectability that wasn't targeted on the user (and possibly companions) 
simply because none of the DQ (or D3) concealment spells work that way. 
It's totally outside the tradition.

But, I think that George's suggestions do contain merit when the 
interaction of Indetectability with Mind Cloak, and Mind Special 
counters  are considered. It suggests a way where we may be able to keep 
the existing form of the spell, with minimal change.

Jacqui


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At 01:23 21/02/02 +1300, you wrote:
>Undetectibility
>Range : 30' + 30' / Rank
>Duration : Concentration, max 10 min + 10 / Rank
>Experience Multiple : 350
>Resist : Active and Passive.
>Storage : Potion
>Effects: This spell causes 1 target entity who has a mind (+ 1 / rank) to
>be unable to directly detect the Adept using any of their senses.  Each
>time the adept is too intrusive upon a target, they immediately get another
>resistance check (eg in their field of vision within 15', makes a loud
>noise within 10', pushes, hits or trips the target, or comes within 10' of
>a target with a good sense of smell).  Note that a perceptive target may
>still determine the adepts whereabouts indirectly, by such means as seeing
>footprints being created, observing shadows created by a light source the
>adept carries, or noting the reactions of unaffected entites.  A Mind Cloak
>add 20% (+ 2/Rank of Mind Cloak) to a targets chance of passively resisting
>this spell.

Frowns from this department.

I am still of the opinion that we should keep to the pattern that all 
concealment spells should be targeted on the Adept not on the observers, 
for the reasons I have stated previously - that is, that even with 
telepathy available, any spell which is targeted on the observers demands 
that ALL the potential observers be first seen. Which implies that they get 
to see you before you can cast your concealment spell. So it become a waste 
of time, fatigue and XP.

Furthermore, giving all entities a resistance check BEFORE they have some 
reason to conclude that there is someone there makes this weakest of all 
the concealment spells (except possibly blending). Witchsight is common 
enough among guide parties, but NPCs must be either elves or mages to have 
it. Or have a celestial mage in every guardhouse...

Jacqui


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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jacqui Smith [mailto:flamis@ihug.co.nz]
> 
> No, although I do think the number of targets in George's 
> version is a 
> little restrictive, given the prohibitively high EM.
> 
> 

Wrong way round. What number of targets is it workable/playable with, factor
that into the EM. We agreed to start from scratch some time ago. There is
absolutely no reason to think the 'Ignore' spell (whose _effects_ we are
discussing, with other aspects as they come up) would have an EM anything
like 'Undetectability' currently has - where do you get this idea?


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#1.  Concerning Brent's
> >Undetectibility
& Jacqui's comment

> Furthermore, giving all entities a resistance check BEFORE they have some
> reason to conclude that there is someone there makes this weakest of all
> the concealment spells (except possibly blending).

Not necessarily -- Witchsight is apallingly common.  Parties I GM are usually surprised when they
can be walking unseen in a village or town and really be unseen.

However, my main point is ... If mind magic "invisible-type" magic is different from other
colleges -- and I *do* want something that's broken/resisted by something other than witchsight--
how should we describe/conceive how it works? [NB: this is secondary to the actual spell effects,
but important for flavour]

There are two options:

A small moveable bubble of "not-notice" or "just-like-everything-else"  which works at all ranges
or, at any rate, all ranges beyond the buble's sphere.  Sorry, but IMHO that is NOT a mind-mage
spell --Go see the illusionists, maybe even E&E or Binder (it took me years to work up the
justification for the old version of Mind-mage invisible which was *superficially* like this).

Touching potential targets, and dampening their ability to notice.  Yes! that is a mind-mage type
spell; and I think it must have an effect.  But if you effect targets, magic impacts & they normally
should get a resistance of some sort -- that is, passive resistance.  Certainly it should be harder
to cast if one of the targets is looking at you and concentrating on resisting your magic or other
malign influence -- that is, active resistance.

Mind you (if you'll forgive the expression) there is one way around having to nominate specific
targets.  Although I *prefer* nominated targets, we may decide to have the magic effect all within a
range [up to a specified number? like a web spell].


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Leicester Hall has been booked for the year again.
Meetings are:
10th March 12:30 - 2:30
9th June 12:30 - 2:30
8th Sept 12:30 - 2:30
8th Dec 12:30 - 2:30

I went for 2 hour bookings this time so it's a bit cheaper ($40 per meeting)
and we are usually finished by 2:30.
If we consistently over-run then I'll go back to 3 hour bookings.

See you all on the 10th.  12:30 for GMs 1pm for players.  Starting promptly
at 1pm so we are not too rushed for time.

Cheers, Stephen.


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I got a bit bored recently and recalling Reid's 1000 point backfire table, I
have made my own.

This one is a 2000 point table to fit my slightly different methods of doing
backfires, but feel free to take a peek and use and abuse it at will.

http://www.dragonquest.org.nz/files/Backfire.doc

Mandos
/s


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I am currently offering the following services to raise money for a new
spell:

Petrifaction (Stone to Flesh/Flesh to Stone): 500sp
Linking Lifeforce: 1,000sp (Range 700 Miles), 10,000sp (Range: Interplanar)
Preservation (upto 7lbs of objects, duration 40 days): 300sp
Itemisation (Object within a 10' cube for 6 days): 400sp

High Mana for casting at the guild: 100sp per spell or 1,000sp per hour (min
1).
Summoning of Uncontrolled Succubus: 1000sp per Succubus or 500sp if you can
guarantee containment/death of the succubus.

Manufacture of Rank 10 Rag & String Golems: 2-4,000sp depending on size.
Manufacture of Rank 10 Clay Golems: 4-10,000sp depending on size.

Masterwork Sculpting and reconstruction of shattered stone entites: POA

All services offered at the guild, services off-site by negotiation.
I retain the right of refusal without reason being given.
Premiums may be charged for services within one day of a guild meeting.
Services are offered for a limited time.
Bulk rates by negotiation.

Thaeuss.
stephenm@qed.co.nz
stephen_martin@clear.net.nz


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