SubjectRe: [dq] DA: Modified paragraph
Frommandos@iconz.net
DateTue, 1 Oct 2002 08:18:26 +1200
> Sorry, I just realised not everyone has DQ manual online.  

If people need it is available on www.dragonquest.org.nz

Mandos
/s


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
SubjectRe: [dq] Proposed Spy Revision - sketch design
Fromerrolc@tranzlink.co.nz
DateTue, 1 Oct 2002 09:43:03 +1200 
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">


<META content="MSHTML 5.50.4728.2300" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE 
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid">
  <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma 
  size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> nevyn0ad@yahoo.co.uk 
  [mailto:nevyn0ad@yahoo.co.uk]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, 30 September 2002 11:38 
  p.m.<BR><B>To:</B> dq@dq.sf.org.nz<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [dq] Proposed Spy 
  Revision - sketch design<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
  <P>I think it looks fairly good as an initial draft from a quick glance. 
  <BR><SPAN class=961173720-30092002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
  size=2>[Errol Cavit]&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN class=961173720-30092002><FONT 
  face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Agreed. Thanks Sally</FONT>&nbsp;</SPAN></P>
  <P><SPAN class=961173720-30092002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
  size=2>&lt;snip&gt;&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></P>
  <P>The Hiding, Well, Stealth really needs a clear writeup of exactly what 
  stealth does &amp; doesn't do, Because some would say finding hiding spots 
  fits into stealth allready at a guess, since the stealth writeup is slightly 
  vauge, but a nice idea to work with though. 
  <P><SPAN class=961173720-30092002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>[Errol 
  Cavit]&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;<SPAN class=961173720-30092002><FONT 
  face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>This gives me bad flashbacks. However, "An 
  adventurer can use stealth to _move_ as soundlessly and unobtrusively as 
  possible.", while this is about _not_ moving.</FONT></SPAN>
  <DIV><BR><SPAN class=961173720-30092002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
  size=2>Cheers</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=961173720-30092002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
  size=2>Errol</FONT>&nbsp;</SPAN><BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
Subject[dq] The rulebook (was DA: Modified paragraph)
Fromphaeton@ihug.co.nz
DateTue, 01 Oct 2002 09:47:52 +1200
> > Sorry, I just realised not everyone has DQ manual online.
>
>If people need it is available on www.dragonquest.org.nz

Mandos.

I should point out that a decision was made at a Gods meeting that the 
rulebook stayed off-line.  Earlier this year, I was instructed to have it 
removed from the dq-rules yahoo group file area, which was done. From what 
I've been reading, the question of copywrite is still undecided.

However that hasn't stopped other people. I've found a link to a site 
containing a 2nd edition PDF with Arcane Wisdom built in. It's at:

http://www.dlg.co.nz/roleplay/dragonquest/

Also off the library site, there a links to other sites which contain their 
own additions and modifications.

I was thinking, that as a compromise, the book could be on-line but with 
all the contributors names removed. Also, to save having to download the 
whole thing, the latest, 'official' copies of the skills and colleges can 
be stored separately so players only need to download what they need.

Also, many of the new players we have brought in to the Guild, have told us 
that the rules, in their present form, are nearly unreadable, more like an 
academic textbook, and this can be rather offputting to new players. We 
have a friend who is willing to put in the time to change the language to 
make it more 'user-friendly'. Would there be support for such a project?

This is not meant to disparage the work that people have done in the past 
for rules modifications, they've done a great job. It's just an attempt to 
make them clearer so new people can understand them easier.

Keith.


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
SubjectRe: [dq] The rulebook (was DA: Modified paragraph)
Frommandos@iconz.net
DateTue, 1 Oct 2002 10:01:27 +1200
> I should point out that a decision was made at a Gods meeting that the
> rulebook stayed off-line.  Earlier this year, I was instructed to have it
> removed from the dq-rules yahoo group file area, which was done.
> From what
> I've been reading, the question of copywrite is still undecided.

I have sent a number of documents to the legal team at the appropriate
companies with no response. Should a response arrive indicating they would
like the works removed I will comply. However until such time as I am
contacted I will locate the works on the site.

By the way do you have the contacts for the people who asked you to remove
it?

Mandos
/s


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
Subject[dq] Thief
Frommandos@iconz.net
DateTue, 1 Oct 2002 10:53:51 +1200
I have been looking at a reworking of thief for some time. Given that Sally
has put forward a doc on Spy I have reworked Thief to fit with the way she
has done Spy.

http://www.dragonquest.org.nz/files/discussion/Thief.rtf

This is a discusion document only.

Mandos
/s


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
SubjectRe: [dq] Thief
FromAndrewW@datacom.co.nz
DateTue, 1 Oct 2002 11:14:26 +1200 
Dislike the +4%/Rank stealth, the courtier seduction, the spy extend senses.
The danger sense needs to be rewritten to avoid general adventure usefulness
(detect ambush/sense danger)

Getting better seems to involve getting a wider range of skills. While this
seems fine for courtier, spy, it bothers me for thief. Don't know why.
Maybe, instead of getting an extra rank for taking an ability again, you get
something interesting - e.g. a cat burglar takes climbing four times, gets
to sneak while climbing up walls, do pulleys / ropes, climb ivy without
damage, fall from heights - something interesting.

Otherwise, I like it - it allows different styles of thief - even the
dungeon thief who only has the remove traps and pick locks and claims not to
be a thief at all.

The core skills for a typical thief are climbing, stealth, pick locks. You
can get all this by Rank 2, so only very low rank thieves would miss out
significantly in a conversion.

Andrew

-----Original Message-----
From: mandos@iconz.net [mailto:mandos@iconz.net]
Sent: Tuesday, 1 October 2002 10:54 a.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: [dq] Thief


I have been looking at a reworking of thief for some time. Given that Sally
has put forward a doc on Spy I have reworked Thief to fit with the way she
has done Spy.

http://www.dragonquest.org.nz/files/discussion/Thief.rtf

This is a discusion document only.

Mandos
/s


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
SubjectRe: [dq] Thief
Fromnevyn0ad@yahoo.co.uk
DateTue, 1 Oct 2002 09:19:00 +1000 (EST)
<P> Have to agree with you on this bit, also needs a thing or two added like the Guild Area's, to expand your area of operations into more area's, &amp; perhaps a subskill of fencing, for thieves who get others to steal then flog the goods off?
<P>&nbsp; <B><I>AndrewW@datacom.co.nz</I></B> wrote: 
<BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Dislike the +4%/Rank stealth, the courtier seduction, the spy extend senses.<BR>The danger sense needs to be rewritten to avoid general adventure usefulness<BR>(detect ambush/sense danger)<BR><BR>Getting better seems to involve getting a wider range of skills. While this<BR>seems fine for courtier, spy, it bothers me for thief. Don't know why.<BR>Maybe, instead of getting an extra rank for taking an ability again, you get<BR>something interesting - e.g. a cat burglar takes climbing four times, gets<BR>to sneak while climbing up walls, do pulleys / ropes, climb ivy without<BR>damage, fall from heights - something interesting.<BR><BR>Otherwise, I like it - it allows different styles of thief - even the<BR>dungeon thief who only has the remove traps and pick locks and claims not to<BR>be a thief at all.<BR><BR>The core skills for a typical thief are climbing, stealth, pick locks. You<BR>can get all this by Rank 2, so only very low rank thieves would miss out<BR>significantly in a conversion.<BR><BR>Andrew<BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>From Bernard Hoggins<br>nevyn0ad@yahoo.co.uk<p><br><hr size=1>
<a href="http://au.rd.yahoo.com/mail/tagline/?http://au.mobile.yahoo.com/mobile/sms/msgr/index.html" target=_blank><b>Yahoo! Messenger for SMS</b></a>
- Always be connected to your Messenger Friends
SubjectRe: [dq] Thief
Frommandos@iconz.net
DateTue, 1 Oct 2002 11:25:12 +1200
> Dislike the +4%/Rank stealth, the courtier seduction, the spy
> extend senses.
> The danger sense needs to be rewritten to avoid general adventure
> usefulness (detect ambush/sense danger)

The Sense Danger I thought was clarified in the write-up that it only covers
situations where a thief is hiding, stealthing or attempting to annoy a
trapped item?

The Seduction is included for Casanova style thieves, I.e. seduce person,
get them to bedroom, slope off in the middle of the night with all their
belongings. This is simply to assist in covering as many of the thief
archetypes as possible.

The extend senses should perhaps be extend hearing only, but a thief does
need to have a greater awareness of surroundings while stealing.

The additional stealth I cannot see breaking the game in anyway, the only
time this is going to be an issue is at the high ranks of thief and is
simply being a particular species can add +20 spending thousands of EP for a
similar bonus does not seem unbalanced.

Mandos
/s


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
SubjectRe: [dq] Thief
Frommartin.dickson@peace.com
DateTue, 01 Oct 2002 11:35:16 +1200
AndrewW@datacom.co.nz wrote:

>Dislike the +4%/Rank stealth,
>
Agreed.

> the courtier seduction,
>
Definitely.  Makes less sense for Thief than for Spy, and even then only 
for very courtly/gentle-being thieves -- who should take Courtier as 
part of their profession.

> the spy extend senses.
>
Yes, although the detecting secret doors, places, etc is fine.  Also 
like the idea of thieves learning scents and the like -- part of 
trap/poison detection.

>
>The danger sense needs to be rewritten to avoid general adventure usefulness
>(detect ambush/sense danger)
>
Would it work if this sense only operated whilst Stealthing?  E.g. Thief 
has been spotted by Guard who waits around corner, Thief stealths to 
corner and then gets a chance of a danger "tingle" -- there's something 
bad around the corner.  Prevents general use, but is of use whilst 
involved in theif activities?

Another possible sub-skill is something like Estimate Value.  Not as 
good as Merchant -- and any thief who wants to specialise in nicking 
gems (for example) should pick up some ranks in Merchant with that area 
-- but generally should be able to tell real from paste, have a chance 
of telling the real silverware from the plated, etc.

Cheers,
Martin

-- 

 _/_/  Peace Software International     Email: martin.dickson@peace.com
_/     Martin Dickson                   Phone: +64-9-373-0400
       Senior Analyst                   Fax  : +64-9-373-0401


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
SubjectRe: [dq] Climbing (was Thief)
Fromerrolc@tranzlink.co.nz
DateTue, 1 Oct 2002 11:37:55 +1200 
In general, does thief need a totally different way of doing climbing from
the Adventuring skill? What is added that can't be handled by Thief ranks
giving a bonus to the adventuring skill (which could use some variant of the
thief formula if people prefer it).

While we are at it, can we state the time taken to learn ropes and claws
(once we decide they are, there are various options)

"29.1 Climbing
This skill allows a character to climb anything from
walls to mountains without the aid of specialised
equipment, if this is at all possible."

"47.2 A thief can, as long as they may find a purchase
sufficient to bear their weight, climb any structure."

I've heard a distinction being made between the two styles. There doesn't
seem to be anything in the rules to support this however. Retrospective
justification?

Cheers
Errol

> -----Original Message-----
> From: mandos@iconz.net [mailto:mandos@iconz.net]
> Sent: Tuesday, 1 October 2002 10:54 a.m.
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: [dq] Thief
> 
> 
> I have been looking at a reworking of thief for some time. 
> Given that Sally
> has put forward a doc on Spy I have reworked Thief to fit 
> with the way she
> has done Spy.
>


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
SubjectRe: [dq] Thief
Fromerrolc@tranzlink.co.nz
DateTue, 1 Oct 2002 11:54:46 +1200 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: martin.dickson@peace.com [mailto:martin.dickson@peace.com]
> 
> > the courtier seduction,
> >
> Definitely.  Makes less sense for Thief than for Spy, and 
> even then only 
> for very courtly/gentle-being thieves -- who should take Courtier as 
> part of their profession.
> 
Agree. Any courtier with seduction could try to sneak off with a purse, but
they might hurt themselves falling off the ivy if they can't climb well.

> 
> Another possible sub-skill is something like Estimate Value.  Not as 
> good as Merchant -- and any thief who wants to specialise in nicking 
> gems (for example) should pick up some ranks in Merchant with 
> that area 
> -- but generally should be able to tell real from paste, have 
> a chance 
> of telling the real silverware from the plated, etc.
> 

How about something similar for info in baseline skill for spy - more likely
to realise that a snippet they see/hear is worth remembering, so they don't
clutter up their minds with dross. Just an idea.

Cheers
Errol


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
SubjectRe: [dq] Thief
Frommandos@iconz.net
DateTue, 1 Oct 2002 13:17:18 +1200
Given that the only real complaint about Spy was the hiding thing, what
happens now to put the new Spy in as a rule?

Mandos
/s


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
SubjectRe: [dq] Thief
Fromerrolc@tranzlink.co.nz
DateTue, 1 Oct 2002 13:47:27 +1200 
Something like:

1. We wait a few more days to give more people the chance to comment
2. The design outline is turned into a firm proposal (lots of volunteers for
the number-crunching I see)
3. The proposal is discussed and modified for as long as it takes. Workshops
have been used in the past to help in this process.
4. Final proposal posted on dq-announce a week or two before guild meeting
5. Final proposal (including conversion) voted on at pre-meeting Gods
meeting.
6. Actual implementation timing as decided (at the same time as other
changes is apparently preferred)

I (using Ian's old account) suggested basically this back when we abandoned
monthly Gods meetings. No-one commented, which doesn't mean that much.

The suggestion is, of course, subject to the groups approval, I'm not
claiming the above is written in stone or anything. No-one objected when
basically this procedure was used for the last rule changes (Namer, Mind and
Ranger, from memory).

Cheers
Errol

> -----Original Message-----
> From: mandos@iconz.net [mailto:mandos@iconz.net]
> Sent: Tuesday, 1 October 2002 1:17 p.m.
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] Thief
> 
> 
> Given that the only real complaint about Spy was the hiding 
> thing, what
> happens now to put the new Spy in as a rule?
> 
> Mandos
> /s
> 
> 
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
SubjectRe: [dq] DQ: DA & Auras
Fromdawnhaven@xtra.co.nz
DateTue, 1 Oct 2002 17:55:41 +1200

ieeeeeeeeeee ! shock, stun and amazement.

but societal sphere _is_ intrinsic. A peasant will have a smaller aura than
a princess, and possibly even other nobles. (with subtle shading on the word
'will').

I insist that DA be amended to read the following:

"Information that may be gained from a living being includes: its Generic
True Name, its plane of origin, approximately how far it is through its
life-span (e.g. juvenile, 50%, about 100 years old), its general state of
health (e.g. healthy, diseased, 1/2 Endurance),

_their society (pleb, noble, princess)_,

aptitude with a magical
ability (e.g. low overall, Rank of specific ability) and to which College of
magic (if any) it is attuned. "

I shan't sleep until I am assured that Namer can detect my station.

And I shan't stop tapping my foot until it is so.

mmmmm, this is always good wine, now where was I...

Isil Eth,

> By the way, NO learned behaviour is intrinsic to a creature - it is
entirely
> extrinsic.  Yes "Artisan/farmer" is important to a farmer - but it is NOT
> intrinsic to the human who is farming (even if that is his "self identity"
> or if he would starve if he did not farm).  Fortunately the definition
makes
> learned magic important to the aura.
>
> regards, Michael
>
>
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
SubjectRe: [dq] Climbing (was Thief)
Fromdawnhaven@xtra.co.nz
DateTue, 1 Oct 2002 17:46:09 +1200
good point. We shouldn't have too many variations on how to damage a thief
(oops, er, determine if they fall off).

May be theives have a bonus to climbing artificial cliffs.

Ian

----- Original Message -----
From: <errolc@tranzlink.co.nz>
To: <dq@dq.sf.org.nz>
Sent: Tuesday, 1 October 2002 11:37
Subject: Re: [dq] Climbing (was Thief)


> In general, does thief need a totally different way of doing climbing from
> the Adventuring skill? What is added that can't be handled by Thief ranks
> giving a bonus to the adventuring skill (which could use some variant of
the
> thief formula if people prefer it).
>
> While we are at it, can we state the time taken to learn ropes and claws
> (once we decide they are, there are various options)
>
> "29.1 Climbing
> This skill allows a character to climb anything from
> walls to mountains without the aid of specialised
> equipment, if this is at all possible."
>
> "47.2 A thief can, as long as they may find a purchase
> sufficient to bear their weight, climb any structure."
>
> I've heard a distinction being made between the two styles. There doesn't
> seem to be anything in the rules to support this however. Retrospective
> justification?
>
> Cheers
> Errol
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: mandos@iconz.net [mailto:mandos@iconz.net]
> > Sent: Tuesday, 1 October 2002 10:54 a.m.
> > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> > Subject: [dq] Thief
> >
> >
> > I have been looking at a reworking of thief for some time.
> > Given that Sally
> > has put forward a doc on Spy I have reworked Thief to fit
> > with the way she
> > has done Spy.
> >
>
>
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
SubjectRe: [dq] The rulebook (was DA: Modified paragraph)
Fromross.alexander@uk.neceur.com
DateTue, 1 Oct 2002 09:25:40 +0100
Keith,

The rulebook is a *rules* book, not an introduction to the game or
the system.  It is written the way it is to keep it from getting too large
or verbose.  If somebody wants to write a document explaining
the system or the world then fine.  If anybody has such a document
and wants it prepended to the existing rules then also fine, but
tinkering with the language/layout of the current rules is asking for
a lot of work with little real gain.

Boo hoo hoo,

Ross

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ross Alexander                           "We demand clearly defined
MIS - NEC Europe Limited            boundaries of uncertainty and
Work ph: +44 20 8752 3394         doubt."


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
SubjectRe: [dq] Spy from here [dq] Thief
Fromsalient@kcbbs.gen.nz
DateTue, 01 Oct 2002 21:22:23 +1200
What Errol said sounds reasonable to me.  I'm planning to add all those
proper details to make the design into rules over the next couple of weeks.  

BTW, where can I get a word document with the right sort of format to use
as a template for the proposal?

Regards,
Sally

At 13:47 1/10/02 +1200, you wrote:
>Something like:
>
>1. We wait a few more days to give more people the chance to comment
>2. The design outline is turned into a firm proposal (lots of volunteers for
>the number-crunching I see)
>3. The proposal is discussed and modified for as long as it takes. Workshops
>have been used in the past to help in this process.
>4. Final proposal posted on dq-announce a week or two before guild meeting
>5. Final proposal (including conversion) voted on at pre-meeting Gods
>meeting.
>6. Actual implementation timing as decided (at the same time as other
>changes is apparently preferred)
>
>I (using Ian's old account) suggested basically this back when we abandoned
>monthly Gods meetings. No-one commented, which doesn't mean that much.
>
>The suggestion is, of course, subject to the groups approval, I'm not
>claiming the above is written in stone or anything. No-one objected when
>basically this procedure was used for the last rule changes (Namer, Mind and
>Ranger, from memory).
>
>Cheers
>Errol
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: mandos@iconz.net [mailto:mandos@iconz.net]
>> Sent: Tuesday, 1 October 2002 1:17 p.m.
>> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
>> Subject: Re: [dq] Thief
>> 
>> 
>> Given that the only real complaint about Spy was the hiding 
>> thing, what
>> happens now to put the new Spy in as a rule?
>> 
>> Mandos
>> /s
>> 
>> 
>> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>>
>
>
>-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
SubjectRe: [dq] DQ: DA & Auras
Fromdworkin@ihug.co.nz
DateTue, 1 Oct 2002 22:53:49 +1200

> I shan't sleep until I am assured that Namer can detect my station.
>
> And I shan't stop tapping my foot until it is so.
>
> mmmmm, this is always good wine, now where was I...
>
> Isil Eth,
>

Of course dear, namers determine your social rank along with the GTN (subtle
shading on the your)

Nanny


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --