Sally, in your 25 Oct post, you mentioned your courtier change proposals.
What is their status?


Comments on conversion issues below

> -----Original Message-----
> From: salient@kcbbs.gen.nz [mailto:salient@kcbbs.gen.nz]
> Sent: Wednesday, 20 November 2002 11:01 p.m.
> 
> Are there any conversion issues?  I propose something simple 
> like, choosing
> the appropriate number of categories based on their current 
> rank, and being
> able to respend time/ep on Thief skill if this spy now longer 
> suits their
> character, with GM approval.  

I think the possibility of swapping courtier skills for spy should also be
mentioned. For instance PCs may want 'Befriend' rather than 'Simulate
emotions'. They are different (if complementary) skills, but SE was all that
_was_ available for this kind of thing.

The spy/thief ep discounts should be
> abolished _immediately_, (to avoid tactical ep spending on Spy for a
> cheaper version of something good), but what has been spent 
> in the past is
> left unchanged.

I don't think asking people to 'make up' the discounted EP from the past is
unreasonable. Do many PCs swap which of Spy/Thief is higher over time (this
would make working out the discount claimed harder if the player has not
kept good records)?
 
Cheers
Errol


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At 11:28 22/11/02 +1300, you wrote:
>Sally, in your 25 Oct post, you mentioned your courtier change proposals.
>What is their status?

I was waiting for Stephen? or someone to ask for agenda items, then add it
to the agenda to vote on at the next meeting.  I don't recall anyone having
objections to the paragraph (once Andrew understood it properly :)

Regards,
Sally

>Comments on conversion issues below
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: salient@kcbbs.gen.nz [mailto:salient@kcbbs.gen.nz]
>> Sent: Wednesday, 20 November 2002 11:01 p.m.
>> 
>> Are there any conversion issues?  I propose something simple 
>> like, choosing
>> the appropriate number of categories based on their current 
>> rank, and being
>> able to respend time/ep on Thief skill if this spy now longer 
>> suits their
>> character, with GM approval.  
>
>I think the possibility of swapping courtier skills for spy should also be
>mentioned. For instance PCs may want 'Befriend' rather than 'Simulate
>emotions'. They are different (if complementary) skills, but SE was all that
>_was_ available for this kind of thing.
>
>The spy/thief ep discounts should be
>> abolished _immediately_, (to avoid tactical ep spending on Spy for a
>> cheaper version of something good), but what has been spent 
>> in the past is
>> left unchanged.
>
>I don't think asking people to 'make up' the discounted EP from the past is
>unreasonable. Do many PCs swap which of Spy/Thief is higher over time (this
>would make working out the discount claimed harder if the player has not
>kept good records)?
> 
>Cheers
>Errol
>
>
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>


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Taking my name in vain. Hmmph.

=================
I disagree with:

The courtier may quickly fall into light, apparently friendly, conversation.
After rank 4 a courtier is so familiar with this form of social interaction
that they can hold a light conversation while doing something else such as
using wizard eye, mind speech, reading lips, memorising, or even
daydreaming.

The whole notion of this is spy-based. Courtiers take the crap they spout
seriously. weye, mind speec, read lips, etc are all spy stuff.

=================
I disagree with :

Also, remove the play instrument ability - following the spy logic used, go
learn Troubador.  Playing instruments are taught by minstrels, as painting
watercolours are taught by artists.  All courtly employment, but not
courtier stuff.

Court music and formal stuff is quite different from trouabour folk stuff,
same as formal dance vs. folk dance. Done for different reasons by different
people. Courtiers learn music as an art, to impress each other, while away
time or score political points via entertainment. Troubadours actually LIKE
music and fun. 

e.g. my Troubadour/Courtier has learnt Lute as a Courtier, but Shawn, Tabor,
etc as good knees-up entertainment.
See Ian Wood's reply to Chris Caulfield's comments (18/10/02)

If in doubt, leave it in courtier - its not hurting anyone.
=================

Sally, I have the same problem as with Spy - you are reshaping the skill to
how your characters use it, not how it is used in general.


Andrew

-----Original Message-----
>Sally, in your 25 Oct post, you mentioned your courtier change proposals.
>What is their status?

I was waiting for Stephen? or someone to ask for agenda items, then add it
to the agenda to vote on at the next meeting.  I don't recall anyone having
objections to the paragraph (once Andrew understood it properly :)

Regards,
Sally


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I agree with Andrew on both points. Ithilmor, for example, has both 
Troubador and Courtier Dancing skills (as well as another dancing 
skills).

My diploma course finished today (huzzah) and so I'm surfacing for air, 
before the hard work of teaching hits me at the end January. Might even 
see you at the Guild meeting,

cheers,

clare


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wow - this is a huge skill.

a couple of small issues - there are large ones as well but another time -
can Disguise operate without Imitation ? Are they not part of the same
theme?

- I think "Information" should be renamed "Analysis"

- I wonder if we can blend Disguise with Imitation (getting better with
rank?) and introduce a new skillett of "Legend": the creation of a false,
beleivable background (this could be comprehensive to small, such as an
explanation of why you are in that part of the castle).

cheers Ian


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without understanding the "vained one's" last comment (see below),
it feels like we are in danger of removing duplication in every skill except
the one under discussion - namely Spy. I will send another post on this
soon.


Troubadour and Courtier work. The suggested paragraph should be used for any
and all skills - as you rank a skill, the amount of neurons required to do
trivial tasks is reduced, freeing up the mind for more amusing pusuits. As
an aside, not keeping your mind on the conversation with a skilled courtier
could end up with your unwitting betrothal, agreement with a loathsome
proposal, engagement in trade, admitting something preposterious etc.

As for light, apparently trivial conversation, the nobles of europe spoke in
code. It was trivial only if you did not understand the code. There were
layers of meaning. Nobility, or the upper class in England, had only two
advantages over the rich (and unencumbered) middle class: influence and
information - with their administrative influence came lots of information
(like the decission to clear a forest for charcoal would mean an increase in
steel production was in the offing). To limit the influence of others, they
restricted information to their circle of peers. Admittance to their circle
was not trivial and the amount you gained was proportional to what you
already knew. So with increasing ranks, the courtier can exclude others from
the conversation by simply talking to them. Indeed, two highly ranked
courtiers should be able to have a public, meaningful conversation that
totally failed to exchange information with anyone else listening.

An example is Whisper. She can tell the truth without information being
exchanged with anyone - even herself on occassion.

In summary, whilst it is useful to do a comprehensive review of the rules
pertaining to Spy, it seems to go too far if all skills end up being
assessed as an adjunct to Spy, rather than having an end in themselves.



----- Original Message -----
From: <AndrewW@datacom.co.nz>
To: <dq@dq.sf.org.nz>
Sent: Friday, 22 November 2002 15:10
Subject: Re: [dq] New spy version for voting on


> Taking my name in vain. Hmmph.
>
> =================
> I disagree with:
>
> The courtier may quickly fall into light, apparently friendly,
conversation.
> After rank 4 a courtier is so familiar with this form of social
interaction
> that they can hold a light conversation while doing something else such as
> using wizard eye, mind speech, reading lips, memorising, or even
> daydreaming.
>
> The whole notion of this is spy-based. Courtiers take the crap they spout
> seriously. weye, mind speec, read lips, etc are all spy stuff.
>
> =================
> I disagree with :
>
> Also, remove the play instrument ability - following the spy logic used,
go
> learn Troubador.  Playing instruments are taught by minstrels, as painting
> watercolours are taught by artists.  All courtly employment, but not
> courtier stuff.
>
> Court music and formal stuff is quite different from trouabour folk stuff,
> same as formal dance vs. folk dance. Done for different reasons by
different
> people. Courtiers learn music as an art, to impress each other, while away
> time or score political points via entertainment. Troubadours actually
LIKE
> music and fun.
>
> e.g. my Troubadour/Courtier has learnt Lute as a Courtier, but Shawn,
Tabor,
> etc as good knees-up entertainment.
> See Ian Wood's reply to Chris Caulfield's comments (18/10/02)
>
> If in doubt, leave it in courtier - its not hurting anyone.
> =================
>
> Sally, I have the same problem as with Spy - you are reshaping the skill
to
> how your characters use it, not how it is used in general.
>
>
> Andrew
>
> -----Original Message-----
> >Sally, in your 25 Oct post, you mentioned your courtier change proposals.
> >What is their status?
>
> I was waiting for Stephen? or someone to ask for agenda items, then add it
> to the agenda to vote on at the next meeting.  I don't recall anyone
having
> objections to the paragraph (once Andrew understood it properly :)
>
> Regards,
> Sally
>
>
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>


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Dear all,

whilst trivially engaged with the keyboard recently, a neuron fired off this
thought.

Many skills have overlap. There are some skills which have an obvious
'greater claim' to some skill-ettes (they are more core to the skill).

Is it reasonable to change the rules on skills to allow characters to choose
skill-ettes from other skills at preset ranks?

EG when a character reaches ranks 5, 8 and 10 in a skill, they can choose to
learn a skill-ette from another skill, rather than from the skill they are
currently ranking. This would enable a Spy to learn 'theify' skills. You
would not gain the Rank 0 advantages.

An idea.

Ian


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dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz wrote:

>not keeping your mind on the conversation with a skilled courtier
>could end up with your unwitting betrothal, agreement with a loathsome
>proposal, engagement in trade, admitting something preposterious etc.
>
Ah! Much of P.G. Wodehouse's stories that had previously seemed 
inexplicable now makes sense - Bertie Wooster has no courtier skill, and 
almost everyone else is rank 8+.

>information - with their administrative influence came lots of information
>(like the decission to clear a forest for charcoal would mean an increase in
>steel production was in the offing).
>
Actually, it was done as a renewable resource - wood was grown 
specifically for charcoal production, and you could estimate future 
charcoal production by the amount of land dedicated to this. It became a 
bottleneck in steel production until the invention of coke. (The black 
kind, not the brown or white kind.)


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At 16:37 22/11/02 +1300, you wrote:
>
>wow - this is a huge skill.

More variety for all the characters out there.

>a couple of small issues - there are large ones as well but another time -
>can Disguise operate without Imitation ? Are they not part of the same
>theme?

Yes they are part of the same theme, and yes they can be used seperately.
However if a person merely disguised gets talked to, then things probably
go awry.

>- I think "Information" should be renamed "Analysis"

I think Analysis is too modern a concept, or its use has been perverted to
systems and other IT stuff.

>- I wonder if we can blend Disguise with Imitation (getting better with
>rank?) and introduce a new skillett of "Legend": the creation of a false,
>beleivable background (this could be comprehensive to small, such as an
>explanation of why you are in that part of the castle).

Learn troubadour - part of the supporting background of skills I think I
referrred to in the introduction as making a better spy, but not actuallly
part of the spy skill.


Regards,
Sally


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As usual my memory is at fault.  I ended up thinking that the musical stuff
would remain as it is, but I suppose I forgot to say that to anyone. :)

I am still interested in a general conversation skill being written into
courtier.  Being able to make chit chat, and gossip is a skill that I
suggested for spy, but felt more appropirate to be in Courtier.  Something
like:

"The courtier may quickly fall into light, apparently friendly,
conversation. At rank 5 and higher a courtier is so familiar with this form
of social interaction that they can hold a light conversation while doing
something else such as noticing other events occuring in close proximity,
taking close note of details, or using other appropriate skills (such as
merchants' evaluating jewellery, spies' memorising, theives' pickpockets)."

Regards,
Sally

(PS I'm away til Wednesday)

At 15:10 22/11/02 +1300, Andrew wrote:
>Taking my name in vain. Hmmph.
>
>=================
>I disagree with:
>
>The courtier may quickly fall into light, apparently friendly, conversation.
>After rank 4 a courtier is so familiar with this form of social interaction
>that they can hold a light conversation while doing something else such as
>using wizard eye, mind speech, reading lips, memorising, or even
>daydreaming.
>
>The whole notion of this is spy-based. Courtiers take the crap they spout
>seriously. weye, mind speec, read lips, etc are all spy stuff.
>
>=================
>I disagree with :
>
>Also, remove the play instrument ability - following the spy logic used, go
>learn Troubador.  Playing instruments are taught by minstrels, as painting
>watercolours are taught by artists.  All courtly employment, but not
>courtier stuff.
>
>Court music and formal stuff is quite different from trouabour folk stuff,
>same as formal dance vs. folk dance. Done for different reasons by different
>people. Courtiers learn music as an art, to impress each other, while away
>time or score political points via entertainment. Troubadours actually LIKE
>music and fun. 
>
>e.g. my Troubadour/Courtier has learnt Lute as a Courtier, but Shawn, Tabor,
>etc as good knees-up entertainment.
>See Ian Wood's reply to Chris Caulfield's comments (18/10/02)
>
>If in doubt, leave it in courtier - its not hurting anyone.
>=================
>
>Sally, I have the same problem as with Spy - you are reshaping the skill to
>how your characters use it, not how it is used in general.
>
>
>Andrew
>
>-----Original Message-----
>>Sally, in your 25 Oct post, you mentioned your courtier change proposals.
>>What is their status?
>
>I was waiting for Stephen? or someone to ask for agenda items, then add it
>to the agenda to vote on at the next meeting.  I don't recall anyone having
>objections to the paragraph (once Andrew understood it properly :)
>
>Regards,
>Sally
>
>
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>


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