From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Oct 28 01:07:42 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id BAA16327; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 01:07:42 +1300 Received: from kcbbs.gen.nz (kcbbs.gen.nz [202.14.102.1]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id BAA16318 ; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 01:07:41 +1300 Received: from LOCALNAME (as5200-45.kcbbs.gen.nz [202.14.102.75]) by kcbbs.gen.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA11258 ; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 00:56:41 +1300 (NZDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.16.19981028005703.2707ad44@kcbbs.gen.nz> X-Sender: salient@kcbbs.gen.nz X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (16) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 00:57:03 Subject: Combat Fumble Roll Proposal Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: Brent & Sally To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Problem ------- Current Weapon Breakage rules are non-sensical with regard to Bronze weapons, overstrengthed blows and the MD saving throws for fumbles. Solution -------- A) Replace existing Weapon Drop (00) and Weapon Break (99) rules with a single Fumble rule. An unmodified Strike Check of 100 indicates that the attacker has missed their target in such a way as to risk their weapon, or even themselves. They should make a Fumble Save roll to avoid unpleasant consequences. Base Chance : 2 x MD + 5 x Rank The GM may apply a circumstances modifier from +50 (hitting jelly fish in water) to -50 (hitting spiders amongst boulders). If they succeed in this roll, then they retain their weapon. Otherwise, they must make a second attempt against the same Base Chance. If they succeed in this time, then the weapon is merely dropped. A failure indicates that the weapon is damaged and not usable until repaired. A roll above 90 + Rank indicates that the attacker has hit themself with their weapon. Damage done is 1 plus the normal damage for the weapon (ie as if a 1 is rolled for damage). A weapon is usually damaged at it's weakest point (eg bowstring snaps, axe head comes off handle, sword handle comes loose), but the GM may roll to determine the extent of the damage (eg 70% minor damage, 20% major damage, 10% virtually destroyed). B) Change the over-strengthening rule to be in addition to the rank bonus and to be the following : An attacker with exceptional Physical Strength will increase the amount of damage done with a weapon, but will also increase the chance of breaking their weapon. A figure inflicts an additional point of damage for every 5 full points of Physical Strength they have over the minimum required to use the weapon. However, each additional point of damage reduces the chance of saving from a Fumble by 10. Grenadoes, missile weapons, and Unarmed Combat may not be over-strengthed. C) Adjust Diamond Weapons (Earth S-5) to be consistant. An opponent striking in Melee through the front hexes of a wielder of a Diamond Weapon, has their Fumble chance increased by 1 (eg Fumble on a 99 as well as a 100). In addition, their Fumble Save Base Chance is reduced by 10 (+ 2 / Rank). D) Change Bronze weapons to be consistant. The Mage may use metallic items that have no iron content, such as copper, tin and bronze. Such items cost the same as equivalent iron items, but they are less effective : weapons do one less point of damage, and their Fumble chance is increased by 1 (eg Fumble on a 99 as well as a 100). [The remaining changes are optional, and none, some or all of them can be included]. E) Introduce the possibility of a weapon broken by a parry. If while attempting to parry a blow the player rolls a 1, then they must make a Fumble Save as though they had rolled a 00 as part of an attack. F) Add to Weaponsmith abilities Each rank devoted to strengthening and balancing a weapon increases the Fumble Save Base Chance by 10. With suitable tools, a weaponsmith may repair weapons of up to their rank. Minor damage takes 6 hours (- 30 minutes / Rank of weapon less than Rank of weaponsmith). Major damage takes 15 hours (- 1 hour / Rank of weapon less than Rank of weaponsmith). If a weaponsmith repairs a weapon that exceeds their Rank, it will function at the weaponsmith's Rank until a weaponsmith of appropriate Rank completes the repairs. This completion is 30 minutes per extra Rank required for Minor Damage, and 1 hour per extra Rank required for Major Damage. G) Remove the word humanoid from the Unarmed Combat rules description, so that creatures with vast strength can squash people, if they manage to hit them. H) Add two more Wesponsmith categories (just so somebody in the rules can make shields and arrows) : 9) Missiles (no damage bonuses possible) 10) Shields (no defence bonuses possible) I) Add an overstrengthing equivalent for missile weapons in Weaponsmith. A weaponsmith may devote 2 ranks to increasing the DM of a missile weapon, but this also increases the PS requirement by 5, decreases the Base Chance by 5, and increases the weight by 1 for slings, by 2 for bows and by 4 for crossbows. A weapon so built may only fire missiles that have been specifically built for such a weapon. These missiles require the weaponsmith to devote 2 ranks per DM increase of the bow or sling. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Oct 28 08:30:29 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id IAA16558; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 08:30:29 +1300 Received: from mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (mailhost.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.1.4]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id IAA16547 ; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 08:30:28 +1300 Received: from sci4 (lbr-122-42.lbrsc.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.122.42]) by mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (8.9.1/8.9.1/8.9.1-ua) with SMTP id IAA18642 ; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 08:22:21 +1300 (NZDT) Message-Id: <199810271922.IAA18642@mailhost.auckland.ac.nz> Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 08:25:40 +0000 Subject: Re: Increasing Stats & Costs. X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) From: "Michael Parkinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-to: m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Dear all, Jim asked: > > What positive increases do you see happening to the game as a result of a > human with giant range strength, Michael? None (although it can be fun occassionally, temporarily, with magic). My point is that George's comments were illogical. According to HIS logic, we shouldn't increase ANY stats AT ALL, ever. He said: "Raising Stats will not affect the game in any positive way.... If you read the rest of my posting you'll see that I am firmly *against* exceeding racaial maximum -- be the character elf, halfling, human, whatever. > And, it isn't enough for such a change to have a neutral effect on the > game. It does need to be better than the current situation. Otherwise, why > bother making the change. I couldn't agree more. regards Michael Michael Parkinson Assistant Librarian Email: m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz Science Library Phone: (9) 3737 599 x 5858 University of Auckland Fax: (9) 3082 304 -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Oct 28 09:01:05 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id JAA16600; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 09:01:05 +1300 Received: from peace.com (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id JAA16591 ; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 09:01:04 +1300 Received: via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/pcnz2.7) id IAA21415; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 08:52:54 +1300 Orig-Sender: Michael.Woodhams@peace.com Message-ID: <36362494.276565D7@peace.co.nz> Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 08:52:53 +1300 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05C-SGI [en] (X11; I; IRIX 6.5 IP32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Increasing Stats & Costs. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Michael Woodhams To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: Michael.Woodhams@peace.com X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. I came in to work today and saw I had 22 messages waiting. I predicted that at least half would be from Bart and Jim, but in fact it was only 10. Come on guys, get with it. You're slipping. Michael Parkinson wrote: > Concerning EMs for stat points. If you do want an EM, you should make > it like other EMs. A character starting with 17 PS, say, who wants to > increase to 18 PS should pay 18*EM ep points -- not 1*EM. Obviously this > means, that high stats take much more ep to raise a few points than do low > stats: which feels better if you *must* have an uneven system. Given the current character generation rules, this creates a strong pressure (at least for people like me who do cost-benefit analysis) to start with extreme stats - some very high and some very low, intending to buy up the very low ones quickly over the first few adventures. Of course, if you keep the initial stat +5 limit, this moderates things. About the only argument I've heard so far seems strong enough to consider a rule change is to allow topped-out fighters to have more choice than just Namer if they want to become a mage. Michael W. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Oct 28 09:43:08 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id JAA16686; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 09:43:08 +1300 Received: from peace.com (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id JAA16676 ; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 09:43:05 +1300 Received: via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/pcnz2.7) id JAA25031; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 09:34:52 +1300 Message-ID: <36362FA2.5EFDBB3B@peace.com> Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 09:40:02 +1300 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5b2 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Increasing stats Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Jim Arona wrote: > > SoS was changed to EN to stop a serious Infinate fatigue loop with > > multiple healers and earth mages. > > Nope, wrong. SoS was changed so that it'd be okay for an Earth mage to be > able to cast on themselves, and not create a weird bootstrap situation. Errr... the reason that I put foward a formal proposal that it be changed from FT to EN was to prevent bootstraping and infinite feedback loops, and to make SoS a shade more useful to fighters and a shade less useful to mages. A spin-off of this this change was that it was no longer problematic for the Earth Mage to cast on themself, and it was felt desirable to remove the restriction. I cannot say for sure what reasons people had for voting it in.... but I can say with complete certainty what my reasons were for getting it to a vote. > The infinite loop is still there, and hasn't been dealt with. It is > Creating Restorative, which has never been addressed. A Wiccan and a Healer > can generate infinite FT, by creating a Restorative, and then healing the > damage it causes. Agreed. This loophole still exists. It was not fixed at the same time (although that was the original intention) because there was debate over how it should be fixed, and we passed the editor's deadline for changes to the '98 book. I am hoping that an elegant solution can be found so that it may be fixed in the next edition. The problem with using the 1 pt of Spec Grev damage per potion idea is mostly that Healer does not have a suitable "hook" for it. The intention (as I understood it) was that each time one used a Restorative a little bit of the damage could only be regained through rest or the arts of a low rank Healer, probably on the order of rest overnight or 30-60 minutes of Healer time. This would have to all be written explicitly in, since there is no Healer injury category that this would fit. If we tried to use the categories that are there and suggested that it was (for example) damage to the stomach lining of the imbiber then it becomes "Repair Vital Organs", requires a Rank 7 Healer, and takes 30 odd hours to fix. The Spec Grev idea still seems like a good one, but a little further thought is needed to figure out how best to fit it within the healing/recovery framework. You asked if it was desirable to make PCs weaker in this way, by them losing EN. It seems to me to be a trade off for power. We are only really discussing mages here since the unique purpose of a Restorative is to replace spell FT. Normal FT damage loss can be fixed by a healing draught. So, is it worth the 1 EN loss (for say 24 hours) in order to get 20 odd extra FT... or looking at it another way, 10 extra Special Knowledge spells that you wouldn't have otherwise been able to cast? I think so. But it should make you think twice about that second Restorative, and even more about the third. The point here (I think) is that I feel that it is undesirable to have high level mages chugging these things down like they're Gatorade. The FT costs on spells are meant to provide a balance to magic, and this ability (once there are a few mages around with it) seriously screws with the balance. I would rather see it neutered or removed than leave this whopping loophole in place... though I would much prefer to find an elegant solution if at all possible. Cheers, Martin -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Oct 28 10:23:50 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id KAA16816; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 10:23:50 +1300 Received: from fep2-orange.clear.net.nz (fep2-orange.clear.net.nz [203.97.32.2]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id KAA16807 ; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 10:23:50 +1300 Received: from qed_akl_nt_1.qed.co.nz ([203.97.23.141]) by fep2-orange.clear.net.nz (1.5/1.9) with ESMTP id KAA07850; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 10:15:12 +1300 (NZDT) Received: by qed_akl_nt_1.qed.co.nz with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) id ; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 10:15:45 +1300 Message-ID: <15A7D8BC5E3ED2119E2E0000F82150FC0109C7@qed_akl_nt_1.qed.co.nz> Subject: RE: Increasing Stats & Costs. Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 10:15:41 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain From: Stephen Martin To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. An EM should be based on the amount of increase, this encourages sticking with the relative levels you started with, strong in some areas and weak in others, as opposed to strongish in some areas and average in others. Easing the 5 point limit allows characters to evolve beyond the limits they specified at creation time. Often the concept you have in mind when you create a character changes as you adventure. Your non-mage "magic is for pansies" fighter adventures with some kick-ass fire mage and decides that mages can be ok and he'd like to be one. Or your pure mage decides that he's sick of being beaten up by a peasant with a toothpick and he's going to put himself though hellish physical training so that he can use a sword. Cheers, Stephen. > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael Woodhams [SMTP:michaelw@defacto.peace.co.nz] > > Michael Parkinson wrote: > > Concerning EMs for stat points. If you do want an EM, you should > make > > it like other EMs. A character starting with 17 PS, say, who wants > to > > increase to 18 PS should pay 18*EM ep points -- not 1*EM. Obviously > this > > means, that high stats take much more ep to raise a few points than > do low > > stats: which feels better if you *must* have an uneven system. > > Given the current character generation rules, this creates a strong > pressure (at > least for people like me who do cost-benefit analysis) to start with > extreme > stats - some very high and some very low, intending to buy up the very > low ones > quickly over the first few adventures. Of course, if you keep the > initial stat +5 > limit, this moderates things. > > About the only argument I've heard so far seems strong enough to > consider a rule > change is to allow topped-out fighters to have more choice than just > Namer if > they want to become a mage. > > Michael W. > -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Oct 28 10:42:41 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id KAA16863; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 10:42:41 +1300 Received: from smtp.worley.co.nz (smtp.worley.co.nz [202.36.210.250]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id KAA16854 ; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 10:42:40 +1300 Received: by smtp.worley.co.nz(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.1 (569.2 2-6-1998)) id 4C2566AA.007C3B6A ; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 10:36:56 +1200 X-Lotus-FromDomain: WORLEY CONSULTANTS Message-ID: <4C2566AA.007B742A.00@smtp.worley.co.nz> Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 10:34:50 +1200 Subject: Restoratives Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline From: amtennant@worley.co.nz To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >> The infinite loop is still there, and hasn't been dealt with. It is >> Creating Restorative, which has never been addressed. A Wiccan and a Healer >> can generate infinite FT, by creating a Restorative, and then healing the >> damage it causes. >Agreed. This loophole still exists. It was not fixed at the same time >(although that was the original intention) because there was debate over how it >should be fixed, and we passed the editor's deadline for changes to the '98 >book. I am hoping that an elegant solution can be found so that it may be >fixed in the next edition. [snip] >The point here (I think) is that I feel that it is undesirable to have high >level mages chugging these things down like they're Gatorade. The FT costs on >spells are meant to provide a balance to magic, and this ability (once there >are a few mages around with it) seriously screws with the balance. I would >rather see it neutered or removed than leave this whopping loophole in place... >though I would much prefer to find an elegant solution if at all possible. Well, there's always the hard line approach of only allowing one to be imbibed per X ( where X=a period of time ). You could even rationalise it by saying that the "stuff" is still in your system so another one won't have any effect until an hour ( for example ) has passed. This option does remove the "drink heaps and charge into combat with only 5 EN and damn the comsequences" option which the Spec Grev damage gives. You could even say that you have to wait 60 minutes - 2 minutes/rank before another one will be effective. L8R, Adam. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Oct 28 10:43:51 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id KAA16888; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 10:43:51 +1300 Received: from date.palm.cri.nz (date.palm.cri.nz [161.66.1.20]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id KAA16878 ; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 10:43:50 +1300 Received: from mail1.marc.cri.nz (mail1.marc.cri.nz [161.29.1.1]) by date.palm.cri.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA09257 ; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 10:36:11 +1300 (NZDT) Received: from hra1.marc.cri.nz (unverified [161.29.1.5]) by mail1.marc.cri.nz (Dr Solomon's SMTPRS 2.0.15) with ESMTP id ; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 10:32:38 +1300 Message-Id: Received: from HRA1/SpoolDir by hra1.marc.cri.nz (Mercury 1.31); 28 Oct 98 10:36:21 GMT+12 Received: from SpoolDir by HRA1 (Mercury 1.31); 28 Oct 98 10:36:20 GMT+12 Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 10:36:16 GMT+1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Stat Costs. X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01b) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT From: "Bart Janssen" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Mandos wrote > So you are saying that adding 5 more points to your strength gives your > character a greater depth and more meaning and playability? Your saying that > a few points of stats will develop your character into a more exiting and > interesting character to play? Ok lets remove the word dumping from this because with the number I've proposed those 5 points of PS would cost me 295000 that represents a fairly serious investment of time and effort. I am not saying that the extra stat points would make me roleplay better, I am saying that because I roleplay well already and really have a concept for my character, he would naturally choose to spend ridiculous amounts of time and energy because he wants to be better in that particular ability. I am not interested in making my character tougher meaner more powerful etc I am interested in allowing characters (mine included) to progress (at huge cost and minimal return) in their chosen speciality rather than simply becoming generalists as you propose. Is that your idea of good roleplaying that everybody respond to the limits of the system by becomeing alike!!!!! > A few more stat points makes you a D&D character not a roleplaying > character. Skills and abilities are what flesh out and develop a character, > it tis those that effect when your character can stop developing. Stat > limits are there to force you to think about the skills and abilities that > fit your character and allow it to develop. Increasing Stats is simply a > place to dump EP not a solution to TOS. Oh good grief if anybody is describing D&D it is Jim. Stats define the body that you look at they define the physical nature of the person you percieve as such they are intimately involved with the roleplaying of that character. > >> Raising Stats will not affect the game in any positive way, it will only > >> give those who play to extemes go further into the extremes and heighten > the > >> already annoying problem of escalation in DQ. Do some math will you. The number I am proposing clearly indicate that there will only be a few extreme character and that they will be spending ep non-optimally therfore they will reduce the escalation not increase it. Please think about this for a moment. > You will just get general characters with OTT stats. No you won't. The maths prevent it. > >If you don't think making older characters happy without harming the > >game is a positive improvement to the game then there is something > >wrong here. > > So we are changing a rule that affects the WHOLE game, just to give old > characters an excuse to Dump EP into something that will only cause more > complications and difficulties further down the line? I suppose a pat on the > head and a chocolate fish wouldn't be a better solution. If you have run out > of ways for your character to advance and develop then you need to look at > the character more carefully, noit break the system to accomodate you. So you don't give a fuck about the older characters. Good for you. I hope the players who are around when you have an established older character that is suffering from TOS are as sympathetic. Why change the fire college it only affect a few players? why change combat it only affects players with fighter characters? why change mind college it only affects mind mages? Stupid comment. BTW no chocolate forme thanks. cheers Bart Saying Windows 95 is equal to Macintosh is like finding a potato that looks like Jesus and believing you've witnessed the second coming. -- Guy Kawasaki Bart Janssen Hort+Research Private Bag 92169 Auckland New Zealand ph 64 9 8154200 x 7279 fax 64 9 8154201 -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Oct 28 10:44:19 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id KAA16912; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 10:44:19 +1300 Received: from mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (mailhost.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.1.4]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id KAA16902 ; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 10:44:18 +1300 Received: from sci4 (lbr-122-42.lbrsc.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.122.42]) by mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (8.9.1/8.9.1/8.9.1-ua) with SMTP id KAA07710 ; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 10:36:10 +1300 (NZDT) Message-Id: <199810272136.KAA07710@mailhost.auckland.ac.nz> Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 10:39:29 +0000 Subject: Re: Combat Fumble Roll Proposal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) From: "Michael Parkinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-to: m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Dear all, Brents proposal looks attractive, in some respects -- but here are some problem: 1) the new system adds multiple rolls to the failed attack a-- drop? b-- break or self-inflicted wound? c-- how badly broken? 2) the reason why an attacker's weapon breaks is unclear: a-- attacker struck poorly; then b-- attacker FAILED to *merely* drop the weapon; THEN c1-- attacker has therefore damaged weapon BECAUSE c2-- attacker has NOT hit themself with own weapon [I am assuming that the 2nd roll above 90+rank indicates a self-inflicted damage *instead of* the weapon breaking] Mind you, Brent's system may well end up with *roughly* the right proportions: -> attackers with rank and MD seldom drop their weapon; -> weapons occassionally break, especially if "overstrengthed"; -> attackers sometimes hit themselves -- but rarley if they have rank and good MD. It is unfortunate that rolls to get such proportions will be perceived as linear consequences of preceeding events: that is the nature of all other rolls in DQ -- sorry if this sounds obtuse, see 4) below. 3) presumably the circumstancial modifiers MUST change for the various rolls, e.g. water & jellyfish make it easier to drop a weapon, but harder to break it. 4) it still retains the MD-save concept w.r.t. preventing weapon breakage which is hard to justify; although weapon rank has been considered. Possibly it *is* realistic to say that a fighter with high MD and rank is less likely to break their weapon in combat, therefore the "MD-save" is NOT an attempt to RECOVER from a disasterous swing that would probably break the weapon, after that swing has taken place -- rather it is a reality tweak to see whether the weapon would have broken in the first place. This I strongly dislike because: a-- all other "saving" rolls are consequences of facts, in an attempt to ameliorate the effects: you must resist magic becasue it has already impacted; likewise an MD-roll granted to a falling character to grab a rope or branch it to minimse the effect of falling. The GM has already determined that the magic hit, that the character fell, etc. b-- what has MD *really* to do with whether a weapon breaks. Assuming that the attacker already has sufficient MD to use the weapon, their chance of successfully striking is fractionally increased with high MD -- perhaps the equivalent, in extreme cases, of a couple of ranks. Yet suddenly MD is the *governing* factor as to whether a weapon breaks? Let's assume, as my proposal does, that it is the wepon's metal, not the fighter's, that determines whether the weapon breaks. All fighters are sufficiently competent to use a weapon in the correct manner, and Iron weapons used normally do not break. Shoddy weapons, and weapons delivering additional force have a chance of breaking. 4) being stronger increases the chance of dropping your weapon ?? Here is the full text of the proposal with a few incidental comments: > A) Replace existing Weapon Drop (00) and Weapon Break (99) rules with a > single Fumble rule. > > An unmodified Strike Check of 100 indicates that the attacker has missed > their target in such a way as to risk their weapon, or even themselves. > They should make a Fumble Save roll to avoid unpleasant consequences. > Base Chance : 2 x MD + 5 x Rank > The GM may apply a circumstances modifier from +50 (hitting jelly fish in > water) to -50 (hitting spiders amongst boulders). > > If they succeed in this roll, then they retain their weapon. Otherwise, > they must make a second attempt against the same Base Chance. If they > succeed in this time, then the weapon is merely dropped. A failure > indicates that the weapon is damaged and not usable until repaired. A roll > above 90 + Rank indicates that the attacker has hit themself with their > weapon. Damage done is 1 plus the normal damage for the weapon (ie as if a > 1 is rolled for damage). Cute. A slight change of accidental self inflicted wound is desirable. Perhaps need to emphasis that s.i.w. is instead of weapon damage? > A weapon is usually damaged at it's weakest point (eg bowstring snaps, axe > head comes off handle, sword handle comes loose), but the GM may roll to > determine the extent of the damage (eg 70% minor damage, 20% major damage, > 10% virtually destroyed). > > > B) Change the over-strengthening rule to be in addition to the rank bonus > and to be the following : > > An attacker with exceptional Physical Strength will increase the amount of > damage done with a weapon, but will also increase the chance of breaking > their weapon. A figure inflicts an additional point of damage for every 5 > full points of Physical Strength they have over the minimum required to use > the weapon. However, each additional point of damage reduces the chance of > saving from a Fumble by 10. As mentioned above, why should the additional strength increase the chance of dropping a weapon -- it is NOT being wielded wildly, nor is the fighter sacrificing any other skill for an "all-out" blow; the attacker still has the same Base chance of delivering the blow, it is merely that they deliver slightly more force when that blow connects. If the +10 per point addition to the fumble is only to the *second* fumble roll then the above objection may be ignored. > Grenadoes, missile weapons, and Unarmed Combat may not be > over-strengthed. > > > C) Adjust Diamond Weapons (Earth S-5) to be consistant. > > An opponent striking in Melee through the front hexes of a wielder of a > Diamond Weapon, has their Fumble chance increased by 1 (eg Fumble on a 99 > as well as a 100). In addition, their Fumble Save Base Chance is reduced > by 10 (+ 2 / Rank). > > > D) Change Bronze weapons to be consistant. > > The Mage may use metallic items that have no iron content, such as > copper, tin and bronze. Such items cost the same as equivalent iron > items, but they are less effective : weapons do one less point of > damage, and their Fumble chance is increased by 1 (eg Fumble on a 99 as > well as a 100). Agreed current breakage rules are probably way too extreme. > > > [The remaining changes are optional, and none, some or all of them can be > included]. > > E) Introduce the possibility of a weapon broken by a parry. > > If while attempting to parry a blow the player rolls a 1, then they must > make a Fumble Save as though they had rolled a 00 as part of an attack. > > > F) Add to Weaponsmith abilities > > Each rank devoted to strengthening and balancing a weapon increases the > Fumble Save Base Chance by 10. > > With suitable tools, a weaponsmith may repair weapons of up to their rank. > Minor damage takes 6 hours (- 30 minutes / Rank of weapon less than Rank of > weaponsmith). Major damage takes 15 hours (- 1 hour / Rank of weapon less > than Rank of weaponsmith). These numbers look O.K. Of course it may be faster to make a new Rank 0 weapon than to repair it -- but who cares, repairing would be primarily desired by characters with good &/or "silvered" weapons. > If a weaponsmith repairs a weapon that exceeds > their Rank, it will function at the weaponsmith's Rank until a weaponsmith > of appropriate Rank completes the repairs. This completion is 30 minutes > per extra Rank required for Minor Damage, and 1 hour per extra Rank > required for Major Damage. > > > G) Remove the word humanoid from the Unarmed Combat rules description, so > that creatures with vast strength can squash people, if they manage to hit > them. YES! YES! YES! Furthermore creatures with big strength would actually have a chance of hitting character currently strolling around with defence passable in weapons combat that makes it almost impossible for many animals and monsters to hit. > > H) Add two more Wesponsmith categories (just so somebody in the rules can > make shields and arrows) : > > 9) Missiles (no damage bonuses possible) > 10) Shields (no defence bonuses possible) Yes! desirable and necessary points. > > I) Add an overstrengthing equivalent for missile weapons in Weaponsmith. > > A weaponsmith may devote 2 ranks to increasing the DM of a missile weapon, > but this also increases the PS requirement by 5, decreases the Base Chance > by 5, and increases the weight by 1 for slings, by 2 for bows and by 4 for > crossbows. A weapon so built may only fire missiles that have been > specifically built for such a weapon. These missiles require the > weaponsmith to devote 2 ranks per DM increase of the bow or sling. Good points except that I don't see why an increased impluse decreases the Base chance, *provided* that the character does have the strength to competently use the tougher bow -- conversely, if the character does NOT have the necessary strength to effectively pull such a tougher bow, it should not be a viable missile weapon for that character to use, say -30 for each point of PS difference. regards, michael Michael Parkinson Assistant Librarian Email: m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz Science Library Phone: (9) 3737 599 x 5858 University of Auckland Fax: (9) 3082 304 -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Oct 28 10:52:10 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id KAA16967; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 10:52:10 +1300 Received: from smtp.worley.co.nz (smtp.worley.co.nz [202.36.210.250]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id KAA16958 ; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 10:52:04 +1300 Received: by smtp.worley.co.nz(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.1 (569.2 2-6-1998)) id 4C2566AA.007D1502 ; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 10:46:13 +1200 X-Lotus-FromDomain: WORLEY CONSULTANTS Message-ID: <4C2566AA.007C2998.00@smtp.worley.co.nz> Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 10:44:07 +1200 Subject: Re: Increasing stats Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline From: amtennant@worley.co.nz To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >> The only problem I can see with having no FT limit is that it makes >> things even more D&Dish than they already are although, admittedly, they >> already are quite similar. >Adam. Really. If you're looking at a system to compare to, then AD&D isn't >a wise one. DQ is one of the least robust systems around, in fact as far as >that's concerned, it's one of the more flawed and unstable ones. If you're >comparing DQ to AD&D, then AD&D is going to show up better, I think. True. AD&D is a pretty tight system because of it's simplicity. DQ, I must admit, has got to be one of the worst systems rules wise. >> DQ, through using a hit point system, is a very "you're up or you're >> down" kind of system with a vague distinction when you run out of FT. >How would it be different from the way it is now, then. I can't see how the >situation would change if you ran out of FT, no matter what its original >value. Well, it makes it more obvious. Characters get to charge around for longer with no obvious effects from the bashing they receive before falling over. It's just less realistic. Of course, there's the point that DQ is nothing even close to realistic to start with..... >> I don't mind this on the High level games because it's more amusing and >> heroic. >It's only going to happen at those levels, Adam. Low and Medium level >characters would not have much more FT than they have now. It's only High >level characters that will have screeds of FT...And I don't see a problem >with that. It's going to happen reasonably fast. After 10 adventures, you get to be a solid medium and you've got 30+ FT. After you've been around quite a while, you're a high character with 50+ FT. Are these the sort of numbers we want to see? L8R, Adam. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Oct 28 11:08:23 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id LAA17015; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 11:08:23 +1300 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (root@tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id LAA17006 ; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 11:08:22 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p45-max39.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.106.173]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA08026 ; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 11:00:07 +1300 Message-Id: <199810272200.LAA08026@smtp2.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: Increasing stats Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 10:55:29 +1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. ---------- > From: Martin Dickson > Jim Arona wrote: > > > > SoS was changed to EN to stop a serious Infinate fatigue loop with > > > multiple healers and earth mages. > > > > Nope, wrong. SoS was changed so that it'd be okay for an Earth mage to be > > able to cast on themselves, and not create a weird bootstrap situation. > > Errr... the reason that I put foward a formal proposal that it be changed from > FT to EN was to prevent bootstraping and infinite feedback loops, and to make > SoS a shade more useful to fighters and a shade less useful to mages. If that was the reason that people voted on it, then this is an example where democracy is another word for idiocy. The important issue has been ignored for the cosmetic. Even if the spell wasn't changed, then all it would do was give a spell caster another 20 FT to play with, max. I'm not worried by that, really. I'm worried by Wiccans and Healers or people with Healing spells who can create so much FT in the party that their is no limit on the number of spells they can cast, except for the tyrranny of the dice. > I cannot say for sure what reasons people had for voting it in.... but I can > say with complete certainty what my reasons were for getting it to a vote. > > > The infinite loop is still there, and hasn't been dealt with. It is > > Creating Restorative, which has never been addressed. A Wiccan and a Healer > > can generate infinite FT, by creating a Restorative, and then healing the > > damage it causes. > > Agreed. This loophole still exists. It was not fixed at the same time > (although that was the original intention) because there was debate over how it > should be fixed, and we passed the editor's deadline for changes to the '98 > book. I am hoping that an elegant solution can be found so that it may be > fixed in the next edition. Why does the fix have to be elegant? Surely, it only has to work. Martin wrote: > You asked if it was desirable to make PCs weaker in this way, by them losing > EN. It seems to me to be a trade off for power. We are only really discussing > mages here since the unique purpose of a Restorative is to replace spell FT. > Normal FT damage loss can be fixed by a healing draught. So, is it worth the 1 > EN loss (for say 24 hours) in order to get 20 odd extra FT... or looking at it > another way, 10 extra Special Knowledge spells that you wouldn't have otherwise > been able to cast? > > I think so. But it should make you think twice about that second Restorative, > and even more about the third. > > The point here (I think) is that I feel that it is undesirable to have high > level mages chugging these things down like they're Gatorade. The FT costs on > spells are meant to provide a balance to magic, and this ability (once there > are a few mages around with it) seriously screws with the balance. I would > rather see it neutered or removed than leave this whopping loophole in place... > though I would much prefer to find an elegant solution if at all possible. Or even low level mages. What I meant when I wondered whether it was wise to make PCs weaker in that way was that I wanted the ability to be able to recover spell FT to remain a part of the game, just not necessarily a part of that, or any PC college...I would prefer it not to be something that Summoners could do, because the people you'd have to buy it from all have a sinister reputation...and it's a brave adventurer who would steal from one.... Jim. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Oct 28 11:10:51 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id LAA17045; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 11:10:51 +1300 Received: from mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (mailhost.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.1.4]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id LAA17035 ; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 11:10:49 +1300 Received: from sci4 (lbr-122-42.lbrsc.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.122.42]) by mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (8.9.1/8.9.1/8.9.1-ua) with SMTP id LAA12088 ; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 11:02:41 +1300 (NZDT) Message-Id: <199810272202.LAA12088@mailhost.auckland.ac.nz> Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 11:06:01 +0000 Subject: Re: Stat Costs. X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) From: "Michael Parkinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-to: m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Dear all As Bart said: > Stats define the body that you look at they define the physical > nature of the person you percieve as such they are intimately > involved with the roleplaying of that character. Remember our system uses some stats in different ways: * in some cases ABSOLUTELY. You cannot become [or be?] a beast master with WP of 14 or less. You cannot become a Mind-mage with 10 MA or less, etc * in some cases PREFERENTIALLY. You find it easier to be an Armourer or Weaponsmith of your MD is over 20, because you get ep discounts. The above is in addition to any Functional effect that the value of a stat has (more MD, higher weapons Base chance; more WP, better chance of coming out of stun; etc). Of course, Bart and others are correct to say that expensive stats *decrease* the chance of character with O.T.T. stats, since many will find that they are more competent with judicous ep expenditure in ranks rather than naked stats. [sorry if I'm re-stating the obvious] Michael Parkinson Assistant Librarian Email: m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz Science Library Phone: (9) 3737 599 x 5858 University of Auckland Fax: (9) 3082 304 -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Oct 28 11:14:19 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id LAA17079; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 11:14:19 +1300 Received: from date.palm.cri.nz (date.palm.cri.nz [161.66.1.20]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id LAA17069 ; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 11:14:13 +1300 Received: from mail1.marc.cri.nz (mail1.marc.cri.nz [161.29.1.1]) by date.palm.cri.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA09590 ; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 11:06:32 +1300 (NZDT) Received: from hra1.marc.cri.nz (unverified [161.29.1.5]) by mail1.marc.cri.nz (Dr Solomon's SMTPRS 2.0.15) with ESMTP id ; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 11:02:56 +1300 Message-Id: Received: from HRA1/SpoolDir by hra1.marc.cri.nz (Mercury 1.31); 28 Oct 98 11:06:39 GMT+12 Received: from SpoolDir by HRA1 (Mercury 1.31); 28 Oct 98 11:06:16 GMT+12 Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 11:06:11 GMT+1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: (Fwd) Re: Increasing Stats & Costs. X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01b) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT From: "Bart Janssen" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Forwarded message: From: Self To: m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz Subject: Re: Increasing Stats & Costs. Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 11:03:27 GMT+1200 > Mandos said: > > > Why are we worrying about Stat costs? > > > > Changing Stats will not effect a characters TOS. The ability to raise stats > > higher simply makes the numbers stupider at the top end of the game. The > > thing that affects TOS is someTHING for the character to do to change and > > develop not a place to dump EP. > > Your comments are only true for _some_ characters; they obviously > DON'T hold for the fighter who wants to become a particular sort > of mage as a result of long-termcharacter development -- or for any > other PC who must, or merely *ought* to, develop certain stats > required, or advisable, for an ability (e.g. a new skill) which the > character now desires. I'm actually not interested in the fighter who becomes a mage. In fact I suspect if we really addressed TOS properley there would be considerably less fighter choosing to become mages because they could continue in their chosen speciality. I am interested in giving characters a ridiculously expensive way of becoming different from everyone else. Please note my number weren't chosen at a whim. I quite deliberately suggested that the first 5 point become more expensive than they are now because I belive too many people are just upping the stats because they can, creating more generalised characters. that is not what I want to achieve. > What? I don't think you can seriously mean this. *If* "Raising Stats > will not affect the game in any positive way," then it affects the game > negatively or, at absolute best, is neutral; therefore we should not allow > characters to raise ANY stats. Forget it Michael it was a stupid comment designed to end the discusiion not contribute. > > it will only > > give those who play to extemes go further into the extremes and heighten the > > already annoying problem of escalation in DQ. > > This, however, is a very valid criticism. If the price of increasing > stats is too cheap, there will be little reason for characters NOT > maximise every stat relevant to their existance. Please do the math before you make this comment again. With the proposal I suggested characters who chose to increase stats more than 2 points will be spending EP non-optimally and hence reducing escalation > > A corrolary of that hypothesis is that racial maximums should also be > > removed in favour of a number beyond which costs increase by a > > significant amount. > > Sorry, I doubt it's a logical corollary. I certainly dislike the idea > that a non-human can ignore their initial penalty if they throw enough ep > at it. The strongest hobbit or elf *should* always be surpassed by some > humans; The most agile dwarf *should* always be surpassed by some humans; > etc. Otherwise you are giving non-humans the advantage of superhuman > stats and allowing them to avoid the much less signifigant penalties -- > unless you wish to suggest that every race (including humans) can excede > 25 in any Stat. The corrolary was that if you leave maximums in then peple will all look the same eventually. The discussion about whether a human can be more agile than a elf is a philosophical one. My position is that if the costs are high enough then who cares. Remember any elf can do the same thing only cheaper so the reality is that elves will always have an easier task becoming more agile. If a dwarf becomes agile then the physical description should change to reflect the stats (ie lost weight etc), is there anything wrong with that or should all dwarves look the same. > > Since we've worked reasonably hard to make sure that stats over racial > > maximums don't distort the game anymore there is no mechanical reason not > > to allow it. > > Apart from a common hatred of the 26 Ag watershed, I don't think we *have* > worked sufficiently hard to be sure that super-racial or super-human stats > are acceptible. Any other problems with stats going over 25???? I don't think so. > I do NOT want remove the "+5 points" rule in order to pander to characters > with very high stats that they want to make demonlike; I merely want > remove our self-imposed "+5 points" rule for characters who have a lowish > stat (or two?) that they merely want to make good. Look, the costs are going to mean anyone who does this will be an idiot. there are no advantages to having super high stats other than bragging rights. No-one is going to become the most powerful character because they have 35 WP, they'll have spent EP on nothing else for the last 6 years and WP doesn't do that much. PS? doesn't help giant much, AG? it's fixed, MD? don't make me laugh, EN? see giants again, MA? you tell me is it really going to make a difference that could be better made by spending EP elsewhere? Do the numbers figure out the costs for yourselves and then compare them with other uses for EP. The fact is that this proposal does anything but make supertough characters, the fact is it does exactly the opposite for any character that chooses to increase stats beyond the norm. The only reason for doing something like that is if the charcater has a very good roleplaying reason for doing it, which is what I'm trying to allow. > I further think, because the character with a low stat (or two) has > previously benefited over an all-rounder with much better stats elsewhere, > the player can't gripe against additional EP expense after the normal 5 > points ... or a graduated scale if you prefer. > > --------- > > Concerning EMs for stat points. If you do want an EM, you should make > it like other EMs. A character starting with 17 PS, say, who wants to > increase to 18 PS should pay 18*EM ep points -- not 1*EM. Obviously this > means, that high stats take much more ep to raise a few points than do low > stats: which feels better if you *must* have an uneven system. Nope thought about this too. It really doesn't work right. What I'm trying to model is the expense and deminishing returns of going beyond what you were born with. If you start out a weakling it is just as hard to improve as if you start out stronger. It is only when you go beyond the normal limits that things get exhorbitantly hard. > It also has the advantage that, if stat ep costs are the prime > consideration, charaters will tend to start with the profile that they > intend to maintain: e.g. a brick; a physically weak super-mage; a lithe > sneaky-sort; etc As has been pointed out gamers will do exactly the reverse > Concerning Adam's comments: > > > I'm undecided about going over racial max. If you don't allow it, > > you'll get people (or should that be madmen with 25's everywhere ). > > If you don't allow it, but do allow easy stat increases, you get actually > get mad humans with 25 every where; mad dwarves on 27/25/23/...; > really mad halflings on 22/28/26/...; etc. So you are argueing what here Micheal, as far as I can see this means that you actually need to allow characters to go over normal racial limits BUT that you also need to make the costs punitive. Moreover you also need to make the points below normal racial limits expensive as well. This is precisely the corrolary I was referring to above. If you don't open up the racial limits then the +5 limit needs to stay. I maintain that if you make the costs right then you can safely open up the racial limits and allow mad characters to roleplay as they see fit. > > If you do allow it, you'd have to put a ceiling of 25 MA on spell > > discounts or you'll get people who get EP back when they rank > > generals.... > > Hey, stop being anthropomorphic -- 25 MA penalises those of us at 26 MA > but who are *within* racial maxim; and why pick on elves that are too > weak to fight back? Are you going to tell Mr de Ork that he has to > limit his strength to a mere 25? > > However, i get your point -- and agree, if it was something like "stats > over racial maximums *can* distort the game" As far as I can see the only problem is this generals discount for 25 MA which is a rather easy fix. Personally I'd say the discount should never be more than 50% anyway and wqe shouldv't changed this ages ago anyway. cheers Bart Saying Windows 95 is equal to Macintosh is like finding a potato that looks like Jesus and believing you've witnessed the second coming. -- Guy Kawasaki Bart Janssen Hort+Research Private Bag 92169 Auckland New Zealand ph 64 9 8154200 x 7279 fax 64 9 8154201 -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Oct 28 11:29:39 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id LAA17114; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 11:29:39 +1300 Received: from date.palm.cri.nz (date.palm.cri.nz [161.66.1.20]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id LAA17104 ; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 11:29:33 +1300 Received: from mail1.marc.cri.nz (mail1.marc.cri.nz [161.29.1.1]) by date.palm.cri.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA09788 ; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 11:21:56 +1300 (NZDT) Received: from hra1.marc.cri.nz (unverified [161.29.1.5]) by mail1.marc.cri.nz (Dr Solomon's SMTPRS 2.0.15) with ESMTP id ; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 11:18:20 +1300 Message-Id: Received: from HRA1/SpoolDir by hra1.marc.cri.nz (Mercury 1.31); 28 Oct 98 11:22:04 GMT+12 Received: from SpoolDir by HRA1 (Mercury 1.31); 28 Oct 98 11:22:03 GMT+12 Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 11:22:03 GMT+1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Increasing stats X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01b) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT From: "Bart Janssen" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. > It's going to happen reasonably fast. > After 10 adventures, you get to be a solid medium and you've got 30+ FT. > After you've been around quite a while, you're a high character with 50+ > FT. Only if you use a linear cost. If you use an EM then the cost places a reasonable limit especially if you double when you go over normal racial limits. cheers Bart Saying Windows 95 is equal to Macintosh is like finding a potato that looks like Jesus and believing you've witnessed the second coming. -- Guy Kawasaki Bart Janssen Hort+Research Private Bag 92169 Auckland New Zealand ph 64 9 8154200 x 7279 fax 64 9 8154201 -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Oct 28 11:38:15 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id LAA17151; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 11:38:15 +1300 Received: from mail.iconz.co.nz (mail.iconz.co.nz [202.14.100.36]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id LAA17140 ; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 11:38:14 +1300 Received: from mandos (e0.firewall.ak.iconz.net.nz [202.14.100.208]) by mail.iconz.co.nz (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA022700909527399 ; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 11:30:00 +1300 (NZDT) Message-ID: <014f01be01f9$2b97b680$1564a8c0@mandos.ICONZ> Subject: Re: (Fwd) Re: Increasing Stats & Costs. Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 11:28:46 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 From: "Mandos Mitchinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >Do the numbers figure out the costs for yourselves and then compare >them with other uses for EP. The fact is that this proposal does >anything but make supertough characters, the fact is it does exactly the >opposite for any character that chooses to increase stats beyond the >norm. The only reason for doing something like that is if the charcater >has a very good roleplaying reason for doing it, which is what I'm trying >to allow. As far as I can tell the only one with a character in the catagory that suits the reason for this change is you Bart, so why don't you just go see a GM and ask for the ability you are after rather than pointlessly changing the rules the rest of us are happy to play with. Mandos /s -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Oct 28 11:41:44 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id LAA17182; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 11:41:44 +1300 Received: from smtp.worley.co.nz (smtp.worley.co.nz [202.36.210.250]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id LAA17172 ; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 11:41:43 +1300 Received: by smtp.worley.co.nz(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.1 (569.2 2-6-1998)) id 4C2566AA.0081A58C ; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 11:36:05 +1200 X-Lotus-FromDomain: WORLEY CONSULTANTS Message-ID: <4C2566AA.008116A3.00@smtp.worley.co.nz> Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 11:33:53 +1200 Subject: Re: Increasing stats Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline From: amtennant@worley.co.nz To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >> It's going to happen reasonably fast. >> After 10 adventures, you get to be a solid medium and you've got 30+ FT. >> After you've been around quite a while, you're a high character with 50+ >> FT. >Only if you use a linear cost. If you use an EM then the cost places a >reasonable limit especially if you double when you go over normal racial >limits. Well, instead of arguing whether this is a problem or not, let's just look at existing characters with huge FT values, because there are a few already. Do they cause a problem? L8R, Adam. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Oct 28 11:44:51 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id LAA17212; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 11:44:51 +1300 Received: from smtp.worley.co.nz (smtp.worley.co.nz [202.36.210.250]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id LAA17203 ; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 11:44:49 +1300 Received: by smtp.worley.co.nz(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.1 (569.2 2-6-1998)) id 4C2566AA.0081ECA3 ; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 11:39:07 +1200 X-Lotus-FromDomain: WORLEY CONSULTANTS Message-ID: <4C2566AA.00817FFE.00@smtp.worley.co.nz> Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 11:36:54 +1200 Subject: Re: (Fwd) Re: Increasing Stats & Costs. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline From: amtennant@worley.co.nz To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >>Do the numbers figure out the costs for yourselves and then compare >>them with other uses for EP. The fact is that this proposal does >>anything but make supertough characters, the fact is it does exactly the >>opposite for any character that chooses to increase stats beyond the >>norm. The only reason for doing something like that is if the charcater >>has a very good roleplaying reason for doing it, which is what I'm trying >>to allow. >As far as I can tell the only one with a character in the catagory that >suits the reason for this change is you Bart, so why don't you just go see a >GM and ask for the ability you are after rather than pointlessly changing >the rules the rest of us are happy to play with. I'd like to put another point on one of my characters EN but only for the reason that it's 23 and I foolishly put 18 EN as my starting point not 19 and 24 is better for the numbers. There's a good roleplaying reason for you..... ;) L8R, Adam. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Oct 28 12:01:59 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id MAA17275; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 12:01:59 +1300 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (root@tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id MAA17265 ; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 12:01:58 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p45-max39.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.106.173]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA14704 ; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 11:53:38 +1300 Message-Id: <199810272253.LAA14704@smtp2.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: Increasing stats Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 11:27:08 +1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. ---------- > From: amtennant@worley.co.nz > After 10 adventures, you get to be a solid medium and you've got 30+ FT. > After you've been around quite a while, you're a high character with 50+ > FT. > > Are these the sort of numbers we want to see? Um...Yes. If the party is high level, and they are surprised by a monster or NPC with Rank 20 Necrosis, Hellfire, or Whirlwind Vortex, and the aforementioned monster or NPC triples, then the party is dead even if they all make their saving throws. And that's only using abilities that are described in the rule book. And yet, there is a place for that kind of blast magic in the game. On another vein, I find it hard to understand how a player can only have the most minor impact on the stat that's supposed to represent their resilience, toughness, stamina and reserves of mental energy. It is the quality that I would have expected to have had the most degree of effect upon. I can see how you might have limits to the four physical stats, there are after all limitations based on size, suppleness, reflex speed, and hardiness. A range of 30-35 at medium level doesn't bother me too much, either. Or at all, really. Medium level characters wandered around in my game with that kind of FT and I didn't, nor do I now, see a problem with it. Of course, it makes the characters tougher, but at least they are paying xp for their toughness, rather than depending on the generosity of the Earth mage to support the other players. Although SoS has been altered, we have seen the effect of extra FT on PCs, and it isn't agonising to be a part of...Any DM who has run a game with an Earth mage who has Rank 20 in SoS will know what it's like to have characters with the sort of numbers you mention...I reckon we all know what that looks like.... Jim. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Oct 28 12:02:03 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id MAA17286; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 12:02:03 +1300 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (root@tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id MAA17277 ; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 12:02:02 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p45-max39.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.106.173]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA14721 ; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 11:53:41 +1300 Message-Id: <199810272253.LAA14721@smtp2.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: Other game systems. Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 11:50:34 +1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. People have been bad-mouthing AD&D recently, and I want to take the opportunity to say a few words about it. It is a good game, for all it's flaws. It has stood the test of time, and is still played all around the world. DQ is not such a game. AD&D is cluttered, clumsy and downright odd at times, but it is a game that has a distinct feel, and one that can take a lot of manipulation. It is a game that has been successfully amended to allow the development of different genre within AD&D umbrella. My other points about AD&D are as follows: I admire its simplicity and flexibility, and the occasional weird quirkiness that can create moments of sheer poetry. It is not my favourite game, nor even one I like, much. It is, however, a game that has a lot of background material that allows a DM the luxury of not having to create everything single bit of scenario. And, possibly most importantly, whether we like it or not, it is part of our shared consciousness of roleplaying. Whatever our opinions of the game, it has shaped us all in one way or another. Knee jerk, derisory comments about AD&D merely reveal the ignorance of the utterer. Yes, the game has flaws, it's cluttered, and indexed almost as badly as DQ. Yes, some parts of the game are arbitrary in a way that don't seem to lend itself to good gaming. One might even be able to make a living finding fault with it, so replete is it with poor design. On the other hand, it has a lot to offer, and we would be short-sighted indeed if we didn't look toward the positive things it offers, and tried to learn from them. Hell, we can even learn from its flaws. We cannot do anything by encouraging a sneering contempt for the game, though. Perhaps we should move along, and restrict our references to it to when such references are pertinent. Jim. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Oct 28 12:04:03 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id MAA17331; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 12:04:03 +1300 Received: from mail.iconz.co.nz (mail.iconz.co.nz [202.14.100.36]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id MAA17320 ; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 12:04:02 +1300 Received: from mandos (e0.firewall.ak.iconz.net.nz [202.14.100.208]) by mail.iconz.co.nz (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA102410909528943 ; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 11:55:45 +1300 (NZDT) Message-ID: <017801be01fc$c54d0ca0$1564a8c0@mandos.ICONZ> Subject: Re: (Fwd) Re: Increasing Stats & Costs. Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 11:54:25 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 From: "Mandos Mitchinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >>As far as I can tell the only one with a character in the catagory that >>suits the reason for this change is you Bart, so why don't you just go see >>a GM and ask for the ability you are after rather than pointlessly changing >>the rules the rest of us are happy to play with. > >I'd like to put another point on one of my characters EN but only for the >reason that it's 23 and I foolishly put 18 EN as my starting point not 19 >and 24 is better for the numbers. > >There's a good roleplaying reason for you..... I am hoping from a player perspective that the rules are changed :-) 30 MA here I come :-) Mandos /s -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Oct 28 12:17:39 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id MAA17369; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 12:17:39 +1300 Received: from peace.com (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id MAA17358 ; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 12:17:37 +1300 Received: via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/pcnz2.7) id MAA03802; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 12:09:29 +1300 Message-ID: <363653DF.55830560@peace.com> Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 12:14:39 +1300 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5b2 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Combat Fumble Roll Proposal Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Brent & Sally wrote: > F) Add to Weaponsmith abilities > > I) Add an overstrengthing equivalent for missile weapons in Weaponsmith. > > A weaponsmith may devote 2 ranks to increasing the DM of a missile weapon, > but this also increases the PS requirement by 5, decreases the Base Chance > by 5, and increases the weight by 1 for slings, by 2 for bows and by 4 for > crossbows. A weapon so built may only fire missiles that have been > specifically built for such a weapon. These missiles require the > weaponsmith to devote 2 ranks per DM increase of the bow or sling. The weight difference between bows of varying poundages is negligible. I have handled a fair number of bows, and the type, make and model have far more effect on the weight than poundage. 30lb and 60lb recurve "bare" bows -- similar to DQ composite bows -- will weight virtually the same, and I have handled an 80lb longbow that weighted considerably less than either of them. Much the same can be said for crossbows, having handled 60-odd lb ones made for the SCA and also professionally made ones of 140lb or more. There is only a very minor weight increase in the prod to increase the poundage substantially. The arrows and quarrels used in bows and crossbows of varying poundages are usually the same. For bows, the draw length of the archer is a factor, but the poundage of the bow is usually irrelevant. I have fired wooden shafts from a 56lb bow, and these were considerably heavier than arrows made from modern materials, but it was the material that made the difference, not the bow. I am not at all certain that a sling needs to be powered up by a Weaponsmith in this way, since to increase the energy in the hit it would simply have to throw a stone faster, or a larger stone at the same speed. The power of a sling comes directly from the wielder, and a stronger user will always be able to increase the speed of their shot, and presumably the damage. I suppose that it could be argued that the Weaponsmith is making a stronger, more resilient sling. But in any case, given that a perfectly useful sling can be made from 4 sq inches of leather and two long thongs, it seems difficult to see how its weight would get increased by 16 ozs for every +1 DM. Also it is hard to imagine carefully Weaponsmithed "shot" for a sling -- after all is is perfectly possible to use appropriate sized stones rather than cast shot. Finally, I agree with Michael that there is no logical reason why the BC should be reduced -- provided that the wielder has the necessary strength. If anything the converse is true since a missile from a heavier poundage weapon will fly faster and straighter over the same distance than one with less energy. Cheers, Martin -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Oct 28 12:46:04 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id MAA17409; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 12:46:04 +1300 Received: from mail.iconz.co.nz (mail.iconz.co.nz [202.14.100.36]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id MAA17400 ; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 12:46:03 +1300 Received: from mandos (e0.firewall.ak.iconz.net.nz [202.14.100.208]) by mail.iconz.co.nz (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA076640909528451 ; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 11:47:32 +1300 (NZDT) Message-ID: <016201be01fb$9feed0c0$1564a8c0@mandos.ICONZ> Subject: Re: Stat Costs. Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 11:44:48 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 From: "Mandos Mitchinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Oct 28 12:54:08 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id MAA17442; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 12:54:08 +1300 Received: from date.palm.cri.nz (date.palm.cri.nz [161.66.1.20]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id MAA17431 ; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 12:54:07 +1300 Received: from mail1.marc.cri.nz (mail1.marc.cri.nz [161.29.1.1]) by date.palm.cri.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA11571 ; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 12:46:24 +1300 (NZDT) Received: from hra1.marc.cri.nz (unverified [161.29.1.5]) by mail1.marc.cri.nz (Dr Solomon's SMTPRS 2.0.15) with ESMTP id ; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 12:42:49 +1300 Message-Id: Received: from HRA1/SpoolDir by hra1.marc.cri.nz (Mercury 1.31); 28 Oct 98 12:46:33 GMT+12 Received: from SpoolDir by HRA1 (Mercury 1.31); 28 Oct 98 12:46:05 GMT+12 Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 12:46:05 GMT+1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: (Fwd) Re: Increasing Stats & Costs. X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01b) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT From: "Bart Janssen" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. > As far as I can tell the only one with a character in the catagory that > suits the reason for this change is you Bart, so why don't you just go see a > GM and ask for the ability you are after rather than pointlessly changing > the rules the rest of us are happy to play with. And this from your extensive survey of characters..... I suspect Blitz might also use this and perhap SF, and maybe some others too but I haven't done a survey either. Gosh here's an idea lets requires player surveys before we changes from here on in.. cheers Bart Saying Windows 95 is equal to Macintosh is like finding a potato that looks like Jesus and believing you've witnessed the second coming. -- Guy Kawasaki Bart Janssen Hort+Research Private Bag 92169 Auckland New Zealand ph 64 9 8154200 x 7279 fax 64 9 8154201 -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Oct 28 13:37:19 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id NAA17493; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 13:37:19 +1300 Received: from mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (mailhost.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.1.4]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id NAA17484 ; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 13:37:18 +1300 Received: from sci4 (lbr-122-42.lbrsc.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.122.42]) by mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (8.9.1/8.9.1/8.9.1-ua) with SMTP id NAA03225 ; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 13:29:09 +1300 (NZDT) Message-Id: <199810280029.NAA03225@mailhost.auckland.ac.nz> Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 13:32:29 +0000 Subject: Re: Survey response X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) From: "Michael Parkinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-to: m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. I confess > > As far as I can tell the only one with a character in the catagory that > > suits the reason for this change is you Bart, so why don't you just go see a > > GM and ask for the ability you are after rather than pointlessly changing > > the rules the rest of us are happy to play with. > > And this from your extensive survey of characters..... > > I suspect Blitz might also use this and perhap SF, Absolutely. *If* it was possible to exceed racial maximum with out selling one's soul (an elf should have standards) SF *would* buy MA and WP -- as matter of prestige and personal obsession: Gadzooks, We may only directly organise 2300 people ... must have more control ... As a player I hope we never allow it. However if it were possible to exceed the +5pts rule, at increased ep expense, EVERY player character I've had [except Sabella who was far too pragmatic] would want to increase some stat(s) -- some to enhance their strong points, others to minimise weaknesses. Others, such as Hagen [my only other character in play] to attain carreer choices currently explicitly impossible. As a GM, only ONE of my NPCs has ever exceeded racial maximum; and that is a human destined to become the world's best swordsman, a fact crucial to the games and campaigns which impinge on him. Because he was generated some 9 years ago, he had to have AG 26. Michael Parkinson Assistant Librarian Email: m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz Science Library Phone: (9) 3737 599 x 5858 University of Auckland Fax: (9) 3082 304 -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Oct 28 14:25:06 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id OAA17551; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 14:25:06 +1300 Received: from kcbbs.gen.nz (kcbbs.gen.nz [202.14.102.1]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id OAA17541 ; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 14:25:06 +1300 Received: from LOCALNAME (as5200-15.kcbbs.gen.nz [202.14.102.45]) by kcbbs.gen.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA05699; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 14:13:58 +1300 (NZDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.16.19981028140054.2f1f53f8@kcbbs.gen.nz> X-Sender: salient@kcbbs.gen.nz X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (16) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 14:00:54 Subject: Re: Combat Fumble Roll Proposal Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: Brent & Sally To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. At 10:39 AM 28/10/98 +0000, Michael Parkinson wrote: >Brent proposed : >> B) Change the over-strengthening rule to be in addition to the rank bonus >> and to be the following : >> >> An attacker with exceptional Physical Strength will increase the amount of >> damage done with a weapon, but will also increase the chance of breaking >> their weapon. A figure inflicts an additional point of damage for every 5 >> full points of Physical Strength they have over the minimum required to use >> the weapon. However, each additional point of damage reduces the chance of >> saving from a Fumble by 10. > >As mentioned above, why should the additional strength increase the chance >of dropping a weapon -- it is NOT being wielded wildly, nor is the >fighter sacrificing any other skill for an "all-out" blow; the attacker >still has the same Base chance of delivering the blow, it is merely that >they deliver slightly more force when that blow connects. The additional strength seldom increases the chance of dropping the weapon. If you look at the maths of the combination of the two rolls, you find that the chance of dropping an overstrengthened weapon is about the same when ranked, and actually less at low ranks : The numbers for MD = 15 as "Save:Drop:Break:HitSelf" Rank 0 4 8 Over Strength 0 30:21:42:7 50:25:22:3 70:21: 8:1 +1 20:16:56:8 40:24:32:4 60:24:15:1 +2 10: 9:72:9 30:21:45:4 50:25:24:1 Although doing the maths for two rolls is a bit trickier at design time in order to get appropriate numbers, it seems easier when playing to have two rolls against one Base Chance, rather than having one roll to give 4 possible results. Cheers, Brent. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from --