From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Nov 17 09:06:52 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id JAA16390; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 09:06:52 +1300 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (root@tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id JAA16380 ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 09:06:51 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p9-max8.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.98.201]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA03874 ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 08:55:26 +1300 Message-Id: <199811161955.IAA03874@smtp2.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: Reverse engineering concealment magics Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 08:52:29 +1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. ---------- > From: Jacqui Smith > I think you have to ask why we took to wearing timepieces on our wrists - > the obvious answer is that it's the convenient and practical place to put > such things. The art of ergonomics may have only been codified in the > twentieth century, but good design is as old as the Stone Age, and there > seems no reason to assume that Alusia's Shaper-mages are poor designers. > Much the reverse, in fact. Using magic to create a device doesn't stop it > being practical and well-designed. I think that it's best to avoid items that are resonant with technological items, regardless of the rationalisation behind them. It is better to prevent anachronism, than to commit that sin by accident. It doesn't matter if it would be reasonable to wear a timepiece on your wrist. It maintains the genre better if items are more congruent with the sense of the fantasy period you're trying to indicate. If I see a bracelet on someone's wrist, and I discover that the item tells the time, then I'm going to recognise it as a wristwatch, really. It doesn't matter that the reason it tells the time is because inside the watch, a tiny demon is being beaten 60 times a minute by a slightly larger and incredibly punctual demon, or that it's powered by a cricket with a perfect sense of rhythm...I'm still going to say 'That's a wristwatch, isn't it'. An understanding of ergonomics is no help in this sort of thing, really. This is not a situation where you think 'What would I do, if I were in this situation?' While a remarkably handy tool, it's a bit of a trap when designing items...The temptation is to think in terms of our present day world, and not a fantastic environment. The trick here, is to think in terms of what has the most appropriate resonances, or what engenders the greatest sense of wonder. For example, a sundial that tells the time at night can imply things about the world...Perhaps there is an invisible sun that orbits opposite the visible one, and whose light casts a shadow against the gnomon...Perhaps there is a tide of darkness from dusk to dawn, and that the sundial reads...Whatever...The point is that it is a thing of wonder...Until it is explained...Then, whatever the reason for it being able to work at night, it just becomes a weird thing that tells the time. > > As an aside, I'd expect to see a lot more simple practical items in the > campaign than we do, especially at low levels. I refer to items which a > Shaper would make just to make life in a lonely tower easier, as opposed to > items designed for adventurers to bash monsters with. Things like the "Comb > of Disentanglement" - which simply untangles knots in hair... Yes, Dry Boots, for example, or a pot that heats itself...They are out there, actually, and usually at low level...Personally, my own view of Shapers are as wild-eyed, wild-haired entities who bathe when they remember, and are working on some truly weird device that'd probably threaten the peace if not the safety of villages in the surrounding countryside, when it's finally tested. I suppose there might be a few sissy Shapers, though... > > >> Yet, again and again, visors, > >> glasses, and various eyewear are used. > > > > I have been guilty of devising a "Visor". This was "Vila's Visor of Night > Vision". I described it as "a semi-circular black visor, composed primarily > of obsidian, rendered strong as steel". Now, I have to admit that that > particular item originated in a failure to resist the alliteration. The > description followed on from that... (Jacqui) Be that as it may, it is still clearly identifiable as a set of shades...And the sort of thing I'm talking about. Even though the reason for why it happened is divorced from an idea that is modern, it is still an item that we are going to say 'That's a pair of sunglasses, isn't it...' And once you've said that, you've stepped out of the genre and are looking at something from an out of game point of view... Jim. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Nov 17 09:18:18 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id JAA16480; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 09:18:18 +1300 Received: from date.palm.cri.nz (date.palm.cri.nz [161.66.1.20]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id JAA16470 ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 09:18:17 +1300 Received: from mail1.marc.cri.nz (mail1.marc.cri.nz [161.29.1.1]) by date.palm.cri.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA18349 ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 09:06:58 +1300 (NZDT) Received: from hra1.marc.cri.nz (unverified [161.29.1.5]) by mail1.marc.cri.nz (Dr Solomon's SMTPRS 2.0.15) with ESMTP id ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 09:02:40 +1300 Message-Id: Received: from HRA1/SpoolDir by hra1.marc.cri.nz (Mercury 1.31); 17 Nov 98 09:07:55 GMT+12 Received: from SpoolDir by HRA1 (Mercury 1.31); 17 Nov 98 09:07:32 GMT+12 Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 09:07:22 GMT+1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Reverse engineering concealment magics X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01b) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT From: "Bart Janssen" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. jacqui wrote > I think you have to ask why we took to wearing timepieces on our wrists - > the obvious answer is that it's the convenient and practical place to put > such things. Oddly enough I am fairly sure that wasn't the reason at all, I seem to remember a connections episode that described the "invention" of the wristwatch as basically a frivolous piece of jewelery. History buffs??? cheers Bart Saying Windows 95 is equal to Macintosh is like finding a potato that looks like Jesus and believing you've witnessed the second coming. -- Guy Kawasaki Bart Janssen Hort+Research Private Bag 92169 Auckland New Zealand ph 64 9 8154200 x 7279 fax 64 9 8154201 -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Nov 17 09:18:29 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id JAA16503; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 09:18:29 +1300 Received: from peace.com (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id JAA16491 ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 09:18:27 +1300 Received: via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/pcnz2.7) id JAA18969; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 09:07:01 +1300 Message-ID: <36508774.A10FDB8C@peace.com> Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 09:13:40 +1300 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5b2 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Genre [was Re: Reverse engineering concealment magics] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Jacqui Smith wrote: > >> Jim: Yet, again and again, visors, > >> glasses, and various eyewear are used. > > > >Martin: I don't see that there is nothing inherently wrong with this -- it is > just a > >bit boring. As I wrote above, there is sufficient... I don't quite know what > >to call it... connection? sympathy? between spectacles and improved vision to > >suggest a similar magical connection. It is the same connection as "Seven > >League Boots" rather than "Seven League Gauntlets", or gauntlets or vambraces > >that improve your strength rather than a hat. > > That is the Law of Signatures i.e. "The attributes without reveal the > powers within" as quoted in several fantasy texts that try to explain > magic. There is also the Law of Sympathy "Like produces like" and the Law > of Contagion "Once together, always together". (Keith) That's right... they come up a lot in the Randal Garret "Lord D'Arcy" books -- Lord D'Arcy being an investigator in a quasi-Victorian magical world, accompanied by a forensic magician. The Law of Signatures was incorporated into the re-written Investment ritual for DQ in that invested items must represent the spell stored in them. Hence magical vision enhancement shaped into glasses is probably rational. Magical time telling shaped into a bracelet -- presuming that the bracelet must somehow be "read" -- may be an example of ergonomic design but has no magical rationale. And, as Jim pointed out, as soon as you have a time telling bracelet you simply have a wrist-watch described in fantasy terms. > I must admit that there is a tendency for the type of item to reflect its > function, generally for purely practical, as well as magical reasons. > > >> This is not about breaking the mould, and making items very different, > >> because I think helms that let you see through darkness are fine. I didn't mention this yesterday, but "helms of nightvision" really make no more sense than "boots of nightvision"... unless they have a light source mounted on top like a miners hat. :) [Off the cuff rationalization #27: That the eyes are intrinsic to sight was proved in -352 WK by the Philospher Borko the Mad, using only the primitive tools available to him; his own brilliant logic and a sharp stick]. :) > I have been guilty of devising a "Visor". This was "Vila's Visor of Night > Vision". I described it as "a semi-circular black visor, composed primarily > of obsidian, rendered strong as steel". Now, I have to admit that that > particular item originated in a failure to resist the alliteration. The > description followed on from that... (Jacqui) Say five "Hail Michaels"... and to be on the safe side make a small donation at a shrine of Govannon, and promise to do better next time. :) I'm sure that we have all made up stuff or abilites or whatever that could have been better -- and we also learn from this. Cheers, Martin -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Nov 17 09:43:57 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id JAA16576; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 09:43:57 +1300 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (root@tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id JAA16566 ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 09:43:56 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p10-max38.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.106.74]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA08108 ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 09:32:31 +1300 Message-Id: <199811162032.JAA08108@smtp2.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: Reverse engineering concealment magics Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 09:30:12 +1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. ---------- > From: Martin Dickson > > > We let people 'see' in darkness through the use of some items, but why > > shouldn't the action be of throwing out, say, a moonbeam, and having the > > obscurement of night lifted in that way? > > That is another way -- but it is just that, another way. Agreed. I'm not saying it's anything other than another way... I am saying that it's different from the other ways. > On the other hand, > would you really want to see a wand that threw out a "moonbeam" on demand? To be honest, Martin, what I meant was a sort of boomerangy thing that was silver and crescent shaped, and you threw it out, whereupon it went intangible and let you see everything along and within its flight path... No, I wouldn't be happy with a flashlight. > > > Yet, again and again, visors, > > glasses, and various eyewear are used. > > I don't see that there is nothing inherently wrong with this -- it is just a > bit boring. As I wrote above, there is sufficient... I don't quite know what > to call it... connection? sympathy? between spectacles and improved vision to > suggest a similar magical connection. It is the same connection as "Seven > League Boots" rather than "Seven League Gauntlets", or gauntlets or vambraces > that improve your strength rather than a hat. I think that occasionally, you're going to have to make use of things like glasses, watches, etc, etc...I also think it's better to try and find another description, if possible... > > > This is not about breaking the mould, and making items very different, > > because I think helms that let you see through darkness are fine. > > I have also seen a circlet that does this, and have given away a mask with > similar properties -- I just don't see that spectacles are wrong too. I don't think they're wrong. I think they jar against the genre easily. It is one of the hassles of this multi-DM environment that there are a lot of items out and that means that there's a fair amount of time pollution. In a single DM environment, you can moderate the amount of anachronism in the game. You have more control, after all, and a few of these things can be fun... That is not a luxury one possesses if you're running games in the Guild. Joke items like chain mail bikinis, for example, that offer up to 6 or more points of Prot, do the same thing, by the way... > > > When developing treasure, think about what flavour you're creating. If you > > think it has a potentially out of genre flavour, then try again. Hardly any > > write up is good the first time. > > If you have to err, err on the side of ancient, rather than modern...It is > > easier to live with a bronze khopesh, than it is to live with a > > hip-mounted, gyro-stabilised assault cannon, or even a Swiss army knife. > > Whilst I agree without reservation that an assault cannon, or Swiss army knife > is undesirable, I don't think that being a Luddite is automatically a virtue. > If we want a pseudo-Renaissance feel to DQ then yes, it is important that the > things we describe are not modern -- but it is also important that we don't > create a Dark Ages feeling either. That said, there is nothing wrong with a > bronze sword-y thing as an artifact weapon. No. You can live with items coming from the dark and mysterious past...It's hard to live with things that come out of our real present. (And I don't believe anybody has settled on any real period to play in...There's a fair amount of hemming and hawing about when we are actually playing. Nor do I care, one way or another. I just don't want to derail this into a discussion about the best period to play in.) This is not to say that being a Luddite is automatically a virtue, mind. There're precious few automatic things that are. Just that if you are pushed for a description, use pre history. I cannot think of a fantasy roleplaying game that doesn't have a time of great cataclysm that precedes the current time, before which men walked the land like giants, and magic sang in the air... Jim. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Nov 17 09:57:33 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id JAA16659; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 09:57:33 +1300 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (root@tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id JAA16648 ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 09:57:32 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p10-max38.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.106.74]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA09530 ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 09:46:06 +1300 Message-Id: <199811162046.JAA09530@smtp2.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: Genre [was Re: Reverse engineering concealment magics] Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 09:40:53 +1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. ---------- > From: Martin Dickson > I didn't mention this yesterday, but "helms of nightvision" really make no more > sense than "boots of nightvision"... unless they have a light source mounted on top > like a miners hat. :) The Tarnhelm. Jim. > > [Off the cuff rationalization #27: That the eyes are intrinsic to sight was proved > in -352 WK by the Philospher Borko the Mad, using only the primitive tools available > to him; his own brilliant logic and a sharp stick]. :) Why are all these philosophers barking mad...Is there something the Guild isn't telling us about the skill? -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Nov 17 09:58:04 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id JAA16682; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 09:58:04 +1300 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (root@tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id JAA16671 ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 09:58:03 +1300 Received: from phaeton.ihug.co.nz (p46-max22.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.102.110]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA09584 ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 09:46:37 +1300 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19981117094239.007bde50@pop.ihug.co.nz> X-Sender: phaeton@pop.ihug.co.nz X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 09:42:39 +1300 Subject: Re: Genre [was Re: Reverse engineering concealment magics] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: Keith Smith To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >> That is the Law of Signatures i.e. "The attributes without reveal the >> powers within" as quoted in several fantasy texts that try to explain >> magic. There is also the Law of Sympathy "Like produces like" and the Law >> of Contagion "Once together, always together". (Keith) > >That's right... they come up a lot in the Randal Garret "Lord D'Arcy" books -- Lord >D'Arcy being an investigator in a quasi-Victorian magical world, accompanied by a >forensic magician. Not just there either. Have you ever read Lyndon Hardy's series i.e. 'Master of the Five Magics', 'Secret of the Sixth Magic' and 'Riddle of the Seven Realms'. In this series the standard laws are mentioned (as well as a few others) then, in the second book, he introduced 'metamagic' which defines what the laws of magic are. Worth a re-read and certainly a source of ideas for magic philosophers. Keith (phaeton@ihug.co.nz) -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Nov 17 10:02:30 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id KAA16731; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 10:02:30 +1300 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (root@tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id KAA16720 ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 10:02:29 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p10-max38.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.106.74]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA10071 ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 09:50:55 +1300 Message-Id: <199811162050.JAA10071@smtp2.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: Genre [was Re: Reverse engineering concealment magics] Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 09:48:33 +1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. ---------- > From: Keith Smith > Not just there either. Have you ever read Lyndon Hardy's series i.e. > 'Master of the Five Magics', 'Secret of the Sixth Magic' and 'Riddle of the > Seven Realms'. In this series the standard laws are mentioned (as well as a > few others) then, in the second book, he introduced 'metamagic' which > defines what the laws of magic are. Worth a re-read and certainly a source > of ideas for magic philosophers. That way leads to madness... Jim. Soothsaying... -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Nov 17 10:57:50 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id KAA16862; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 10:57:50 +1300 Received: from peace.com (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id KAA16851 ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 10:57:49 +1300 Received: via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/pcnz2.7) id KAA26951; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 10:46:19 +1300 Message-ID: <36509EBA.4234E70@peace.com> Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 10:52:58 +1300 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5b2 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Genre [was Re: Reverse engineering concealment magics] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Jim Arona wrote: > > On the other hand, > > would you really want to see a wand that threw out a "moonbeam" on > demand? > > To be honest, Martin, what I meant was a sort of boomerangy thing that was > silver and crescent shaped, and you threw it out, whereupon it went > intangible and let you see everything along and within its flight path... > No, I wouldn't be happy with a flashlight. I figured that you didn't really mean a flashlight -- and a cresent moon throw-y thing sounds like a neat idea. > > I have also seen a circlet that does this, and have given away a mask > with similar properties -- I just don't see that spectacles are wrong too. > > I don't think they're wrong. I think they jar against the genre easily. Oh, agreed. It is kind of a weird but that jarring is being caused by our own 20th C perceptions. If as a DQ Shaper I built a carriage that was pulled by two magical and shadowy horses, it would look no more weird to an Alusian native than if the horses were not there at all. However to our 20th C minds we see one as "magical fantasy carriage" and the other as "car". So yes, just because Spectacles might exist mundanely in Alusia, we do not automatically escape "genre jar" when making them magical. > It is one of the hassles of this multi-DM environment that there are a lot of > > items out and that means that there's a fair amount of time pollution. In a > single DM environment, you can moderate the amount of anachronism in the > game. You have more control, after all, and a few of these things can be > fun... That is not a luxury one possesses if you're running games in the > Guild. This is something I learnt very early in GMing DQ. It seems that almost every new GM thinks that just one modern/post-DQ-era game and a few items therefrom would be fun.... but add it all together and it is overwhelming. It becomes safest in the multi-GM enviroment to just not do it at all. > Joke items like chain mail bikinis, for example, that offer up to 6 or more > points of Prot, do the same thing, by the way... Chain mail bikinis are genre satire and I think they fall into much the same category as "time pollution" -- that is to say, in a single GM campaign one might be OK... in DQ one from every GM is too much. > No. You can live with items coming from the dark and mysterious past...It's > hard to live with things that come out of our real present. [snip] > Just that if you are > pushed for a description, use pre history. I cannot think of a fantasy > roleplaying game that doesn't have a time of great cataclysm that precedes > the current time, before which men walked the land like giants, and magic > sang in the air... Of course in times when "magic sang in the air" and men (or more often Elves) strode the earth as giants, there is even more chance of running afoul of Clarke's Law and Heinlen's Corollary. Cheers, Martin -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Nov 17 11:04:02 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id LAA16899; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 11:04:02 +1300 Received: from peace.com (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id LAA16888 ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 11:03:59 +1300 Received: via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/pcnz2.7) id KAA27328; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 10:52:34 +1300 Message-ID: <3650A031.2AD88A0C@peace.com> Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 10:59:13 +1300 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5b2 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Genre [was Re: Reverse engineering concealment magics] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Jim Arona wrote: > ---------- > > From: Keith Smith > Worth a re-read and certainly a > source > > of ideas for magic philosophers. > > That way leads to madness... > Jim. Soothsaying... "I tell you I am not MAD!" Borko the Blind -- Alusian Philospher. "I'm not a loony, I'm not a loony..." Dalran -- Seagate Adventurer "If you kill one person you are a murderer, if you kill a million, a conquerer, if you kill everyone, you are a God." -- attributed to a number of loonies. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Nov 17 11:18:33 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id LAA16957; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 11:18:33 +1300 Received: from smtp.worley.co.nz (smtp.worley.co.nz [202.36.210.250]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id LAA16946 ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 11:18:31 +1300 Received: by smtp.worley.co.nz(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.1 (569.2 2-6-1998)) id 4C2566BE.00803B70 ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 11:20:38 +1200 X-Lotus-FromDomain: WORLEY CONSULTANTS Message-ID: <4C2566BE.007EC107.00@smtp.worley.co.nz> Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 11:07:19 +1200 Subject: Re: Genre [was Re: Reverse engineering concealment magics] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline From: amtennant@worley.co.nz To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >> [Off the cuff rationalization #27: That the eyes are intrinsic to sight >> was proved in -352 WK by the Philospher Borko the Mad, using only the >> primitive tools available to him; >> his own brilliant logic and a sharp stick]. :) >Why are all these philosophers barking mad...Is there something the Guild >isn't telling us about the skill? Come into this room and I'll explain all about knowledge... Look up into the corner of the room there. See how the angles seem to writhe and twist beneath your gaze.... Is that the baying of hounds faintly echoing through your mind? Welcome to the Philosophers guild, brother. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Nov 17 11:23:32 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id LAA16988; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 11:23:32 +1300 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (root@tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id LAA16979 ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 11:23:31 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p10-max38.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.106.74]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA19087 ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 11:12:05 +1300 Message-Id: <199811162212.LAA19087@smtp2.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: Genre [was Re: Reverse engineering concealment magics] Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 11:10:20 +1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. ---------- > From: amtennant@worley.co.nz > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Subject: Re: Genre [was Re: Reverse engineering concealment magics] > Date: Tuesday, November 17, 1998 12:07 PM > > > > > > >> [Off the cuff rationalization #27: That the eyes are intrinsic to sight > >> was proved in -352 WK by the Philospher Borko the Mad, using only the > >> primitive tools available to him; > >> his own brilliant logic and a sharp stick]. :) > > >Why are all these philosophers barking mad...Is there something the Guild > >isn't telling us about the skill? > > Come into this room and I'll explain all about knowledge... > > Look up into the corner of the room there. See how the angles seem to > writhe > and twist beneath your gaze.... > Is that the baying of hounds faintly echoing through your mind? > > Welcome to the Philosophers guild, brother. Bonus...Corner Dogs...Just what the Guild needs... Jim. Burning his copy of the Necronomicon. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Nov 17 11:30:03 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id LAA17036; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 11:30:03 +1300 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (root@tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id LAA17027 ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 11:30:02 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p10-max38.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.106.74]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA19794 ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 11:18:34 +1300 Message-Id: <199811162218.LAA19794@smtp2.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: Genre [was Re: Reverse engineering concealment magics] Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 11:16:48 +1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. ---------- > From: Martin Dickson > > Of course in times when "magic sang in the air" and men (or more often Elves) > strode the earth as giants, there is even more chance of running afoul of > Clarke's Law and Heinlen's Corollary. Really, Martin...Clarke's Law, you say...And Heinlein's Corollary...And in the same sentence and everything...Coo... Jim. Knowing. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Nov 17 12:09:21 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id MAA17115; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 12:09:21 +1300 Received: from date.palm.cri.nz (date.palm.cri.nz [161.66.1.20]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id MAA17105 ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 12:09:19 +1300 Received: from mail1.marc.cri.nz (mail1.marc.cri.nz [161.29.1.1]) by date.palm.cri.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA23768 ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 11:57:55 +1300 (NZDT) Received: from hra1.marc.cri.nz (unverified [161.29.1.5]) by mail1.marc.cri.nz (Dr Solomon's SMTPRS 2.0.15) with ESMTP id ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 11:53:32 +1300 Message-Id: Received: from HRA1/SpoolDir by hra1.marc.cri.nz (Mercury 1.31); 17 Nov 98 11:58:48 GMT+12 Received: from SpoolDir by HRA1 (Mercury 1.31); 17 Nov 98 11:58:22 GMT+12 Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 11:58:19 GMT+1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Reverse engineering concealment magics X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01b) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT From: "Bart Janssen" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Hi All Ok now this is getting really wierd, as near as I can figure out here both Martin and Jim are saying that in a multi-GM campaign we need to have fairly tight rules about what kinds of treasures should be given out. And as near as I can figure out the reason is because with a free system where each GM does as they please too many items are created that affect (negatively) the GMing and roleplaying. One point I'd like to add, is part of the problem is that we've become a little lax on our emphasis on roleplaying within the game. The point is that characters should not refer to a wrist mounted time devining device as a wristwatch, that is bad roleplaying and GMs should try and discourage that. My interpretation of Jims arguement is that there is a responsibility on the GMs part to try to make it easier to roleplay by not making items too resonant of out-of-genre items. The odd thing is that Arthur has been to "20th Century" earth and returned with modern items, but in this case Arthur simply interprets them as magical. eg. the photographers flash unit that he stole is simply several charges of "flash of light" invested in a wierd object that takes 30 seconds between the use of charges. When I describe it I refer to it as my invested item, not as a photographers flash. Is this a bad item?? I'm not sure, probably yes in the context of this discussion. I guess it depends on the roleplaying around the items. As for describing spells. Personally if I'm describing a concept to other GMs I'll use whatever language, modern or period, that I can use to make the concept clear. Without some kind of "logical" description of how what I'm describing works it is usually impossible to get people to understand what I meant as opposed to what I wrote. Sure in the final rulebook use "in-genre" terms. But for the purposes of designing and explaining changes to the rules use whatever language is necessary, and at the moment this group of GMs needs "logical" structure behind the spell effect to be able to understand and interpret intent. cheers Bart > ---------- > > From: Martin Dickson > > > > > We let people 'see' in darkness through the use of some items, but why > > > shouldn't the action be of throwing out, say, a moonbeam, and having > the > > > obscurement of night lifted in that way? > > > > That is another way -- but it is just that, another way. > > Agreed. I'm not saying it's anything other than another way... I am saying > that it's different from the other ways. > > > On the other hand, > > would you really want to see a wand that threw out a "moonbeam" on > demand? > > To be honest, Martin, what I meant was a sort of boomerangy thing that was > silver and crescent shaped, and you threw it out, whereupon it went > intangible and let you see everything along and within its flight path... > No, I wouldn't be happy with a flashlight. > > > > > Yet, again and again, visors, > > > glasses, and various eyewear are used. > > > > I don't see that there is nothing inherently wrong with this -- it is > just a > > bit boring. As I wrote above, there is sufficient... I don't quite know > what > > to call it... connection? sympathy? between spectacles and improved > vision to > > suggest a similar magical connection. It is the same connection as > "Seven > > League Boots" rather than "Seven League Gauntlets", or gauntlets or > vambraces > > that improve your strength rather than a hat. > > I think that occasionally, you're going to have to make use of things like > glasses, watches, etc, etc...I also think it's better to try and find > another description, if possible... > > > > > > This is not about breaking the mould, and making items very different, > > > because I think helms that let you see through darkness are fine. > > > > I have also seen a circlet that does this, and have given away a mask > with > > similar properties -- I just don't see that spectacles are wrong too. > > I don't think they're wrong. I think they jar against the genre easily. It > is one of the hassles of this multi-DM environment that there are a lot of > items out and that means that there's a fair amount of time pollution. In a > single DM environment, you can moderate the amount of anachronism in the > game. You have more control, after all, and a few of these things can be > fun... > That is not a luxury one possesses if you're running games in the Guild. > Joke items like chain mail bikinis, for example, that offer up to 6 or more > points of Prot, do the same thing, by the way... > > > > > > When developing treasure, think about what flavour you're creating. If > you > > > think it has a potentially out of genre flavour, then try again. Hardly > any > > > write up is good the first time. > > > If you have to err, err on the side of ancient, rather than modern...It > is > > > easier to live with a bronze khopesh, than it is to live with a > > > hip-mounted, gyro-stabilised assault cannon, or even a Swiss army > knife. > > > > Whilst I agree without reservation that an assault cannon, or Swiss army > knife > > is undesirable, I don't think that being a Luddite is automatically a > virtue. > > If we want a pseudo-Renaissance feel to DQ then yes, it is important that > the > > things we describe are not modern -- but it is also important that we > don't > > create a Dark Ages feeling either. That said, there is nothing wrong > with a > > bronze sword-y thing as an artifact weapon. > > No. You can live with items coming from the dark and mysterious past...It's > hard to live with things that come out of our real present. > (And I don't believe anybody has settled on any real period to play > in...There's a fair amount of hemming and hawing about when we are actually > playing. > Nor do I care, one way or another. I just don't want to derail this into a > discussion about the best period to play in.) > This is not to say that being a Luddite is automatically a virtue, mind. > There're precious few automatic things that are. Just that if you are > pushed for a description, use pre history. I cannot think of a fantasy > roleplaying game that doesn't have a time of great cataclysm that precedes > the current time, before which men walked the land like giants, and magic > sang in the air... > Jim. > > -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- Saying Windows 95 is equal to Macintosh is like finding a potato that looks like Jesus and believing you've witnessed the second coming. -- Guy Kawasaki Bart Janssen Hort+Research Private Bag 92169 Auckland New Zealand ph 64 9 8154200 x 7279 fax 64 9 8154201 -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Nov 17 12:17:09 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id MAA17154; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 12:17:09 +1300 Received: from mail.iconz.co.nz (mail.iconz.co.nz [202.14.100.36]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id MAA17144 ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 12:17:08 +1300 Received: from mandos (e0.firewall.ak.iconz.net.nz [202.14.100.208]) by mail.iconz.co.nz (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA164460911257542 ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 12:05:42 +1300 (NZDT) Message-ID: <00a001be11b5$72a63300$1564a8c0@mandos.ICONZ> Subject: Re: Genre [was Re: Reverse engineering concealment magics] Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 12:04:21 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 From: "Mandos Mitchinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >Not just there either. Have you ever read Lyndon Hardy's series i.e. >'Master of the Five Magics', 'Secret of the Sixth Magic' and 'Riddle of the >Seven Realms'. In this series the standard laws are mentioned (as well as a >few others) then, in the second book, he introduced 'metamagic' which >defines what the laws of magic are. Worth a re-read and certainly a source >of ideas for magic philosophers. And lets not forget it is the inspiration for a snazzy song by Megadeath :-) On the magical laws front, I think the important thing to do with an Item you create is to think of the history of where it came from, the act of writing a short history can really aid in smoothing out and refining the definition of the item and it tends to help remove the tech edge from stuff as well by forcing you to think more about the item. Mandos /s -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Nov 17 12:17:53 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id MAA17174; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 12:17:53 +1300 Received: from peace.com (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id MAA17165 ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 12:17:52 +1300 Received: via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/pcnz2.7) id MAA03478; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 12:06:27 +1300 Orig-Sender: Michael.Woodhams@peace.com Message-ID: <3650AFF1.548BF284@peace.co.nz> Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 12:06:26 +1300 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05C-SGI [en] (X11; I; IRIX 6.5 IP32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Genre [was Re: Reverse engineering concealment magics] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Michael Woodhams To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: Michael.Woodhams@peace.com X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Martin Dickson wrote: > > sang in the air... > > Of course in times when "magic sang in the air" and men (or more often Elves) > strode the earth as giants, there is even more chance of running afoul of > Clarke's Law and Heinlen's Corollary. > What is Heinlein's Corollary? That sufficiently advanced magic is technology? Michael -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Nov 17 12:32:58 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id MAA17222; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 12:32:58 +1300 Received: from peace.com (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id MAA17211 ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 12:32:57 +1300 Received: via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/pcnz2.7) id MAA04391; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 12:21:31 +1300 Message-ID: <3650B50A.5EC5F6F3@peace.com> Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 12:28:10 +1300 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5b2 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Reverse engineering concealment magics Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Bart Janssen wrote: > Ok now this is getting really wierd, as near as I can figure out here both > Martin and Jim are saying that in a multi-GM campaign we need to have > fairly tight rules about what kinds of treasures should be given out. So... is it really wierd because of _what_ we are saying... or is it really wierd that we agree on some things? :) > ...characters should not refer to a wrist mounted time devining device > as a wristwatch, that is bad roleplaying and GMs should try and > discourage that. My interpretation of Jims arguement is that there is a > responsibility on the GMs part to try to make it easier to roleplay by not > making items too resonant of out-of-genre items. I think so too. The problem with a wristwatch is that no matter what a PC describes it as; it will be a wristwatch in the minds of the other players. And that this disturbs suspension of disbelief/immersion into a fantasy world/etc. > The odd thing is that Arthur has been to "20th Century" earth and > returned with modern items, but in this case Arthur simply interprets > them as magical. Clarke's Law at work -- it is just that in Arthur's case the technology doesn't have to be very far advanced to make him think it is magical. :) Mortimer would like to selll him a "magical" tube that you look through and it makes objects look closer... it makes them upside-down as well... a small flaw in the shaping. :) > As for describing spells. Personally if I'm describing a concept to other > GMs I'll use whatever language, modern or period, that I can use to > make the concept clear. Yes... we are 20th C people. And this brings us full circle back to "Mind Editing". I have no objection to having a spell descibed to me in that way, or "like Obi-Wan's sneaking on board the Death Star". We share a somewhat-common set of knowledge and experiences and allusions that make such a desciption a clear and concise way of referring to a concept. Then it can be written "in-genre" -- provided that the _concept_ also fits. Some concepts may not fit not matter how they are written. I don't really want to see a Solar transport spell that works at the spped of light no matter how well written -- the concept doesn't fit... actually on second thoughs it might be OK... I have seen sunlight move across my lounge floor... it should give them a TMR of about 0.01 Cheers, Martin -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Nov 17 12:44:58 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id MAA17262; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 12:44:58 +1300 Received: from peace.com (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id MAA17253 ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 12:44:57 +1300 Received: via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/pcnz2.7) id MAA05229; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 12:33:31 +1300 Message-ID: <3650B7D9.296FFEEA@peace.com> Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 12:40:09 +1300 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5b2 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Genre [was Re: Reverse engineering concealment magics] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Michael Woodhams wrote: > Martin Dickson wrote: > > > Of course in times when "magic sang in the air" and men (or more often Elves) > > strode the earth as giants, there is even more chance of running afoul of > > Clarke's Law and Heinlen's Corollary. > > What is Heinlein's Corollary? That sufficiently advanced magic is technology? Yeah... I can't remember the exact wording but it is basically that magic is indistinguishable from very high tech. It becomes the outside appearance that we judge. A flying saucer is seen to be high tech -- a flying galleon (or tea-cup for that matter) is seen to be magic. A "Jet-bike" seen in a fantasy setting jars, no matter its power source. The two areas become a lot less clear cut when considering very Gothic sci-fi. Games workshop -- for the "Dark Eldar" in their 40K Sci-fi game -- are bringing out a model of a anti-gravity powered craft that loots all the world like flying trireme, and that no-one would ever consider to be sci-fi if seen in a fantasy setting. Cheers, Martin -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Nov 17 12:59:25 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id MAA17321; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 12:59:25 +1300 Received: from mail.iconz.co.nz (mail.iconz.co.nz [202.14.100.36]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id MAA17310 ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 12:59:24 +1300 Received: from mandos (e0.firewall.ak.iconz.net.nz [202.14.100.208]) by mail.iconz.co.nz (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA278750911260077 ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 12:47:57 +1300 (NZDT) Message-ID: <00ca01be11bb$5a32fc80$1564a8c0@mandos.ICONZ> Subject: A handy hint? Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 12:46:35 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 From: "Mandos Mitchinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Just on the topic of Tech in Games and things. In responce to a few things that annoyed me in DQ I started to run my games solely by candlelight. I found that the amounts of out of game conversation and wandering attention dramatically reduced. It seems that the use of technology to play the game encourages a technological feel and therefore a tech mindset which is decreased with the use of candles and other non-tech playing aids. Mandos > -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Nov 17 13:33:16 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id NAA17371; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 13:33:16 +1300 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (root@tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id NAA17361 ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 13:33:15 +1300 Received: from phaeton.ihug.co.nz (p42-max29.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.104.42]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA20901 ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 13:21:48 +1300 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19981117131751.007c2240@pop.ihug.co.nz> X-Sender: phaeton@pop.ihug.co.nz X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 13:17:51 +1300 Subject: Re: Genre [was Re: Reverse engineering concealment magics] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: Keith Smith To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Michael Woodhams wrote: > >> Martin Dickson wrote: >> >> > Of course in times when "magic sang in the air" and men (or more often Elves) >> > strode the earth as giants, there is even more chance of running afoul of >> > Clarke's Law and Heinlen's Corollary. >> >> What is Heinlein's Corollary? That sufficiently advanced magic is technology? > >Yeah... I can't remember the exact wording but it is basically that magic is >indistinguishable from very high tech. Errr. That sounds more like Clarke's Third Law 'That any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic'. Keith (phaeton@ihug.co.nz) -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Nov 17 13:40:10 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id NAA17405; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 13:40:10 +1300 Received: from mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (mailhost.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.1.4]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id NAA17396 ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 13:40:09 +1300 Received: from sci4 (lbr-122-42.lbrsc.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.122.42]) by mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (8.9.1/8.9.1/8.9.1-ua) with SMTP id NAA03418 ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 13:28:40 +1300 (NZDT) Message-Id: <199811170028.NAA03418@mailhost.auckland.ac.nz> Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 13:32:25 +0000 Subject: Re: Genre, Manatech, etc X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) From: "Michael Parkinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-to: m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Dear all, Jim's mentioning the Tarnhelm reminds me of one point of his I wanted to embelish, also endorsed/touched on by Martin & Mandos: The atmospheric effects or "feel" of an item is often intrinsic to its being truely perceived as magical -- and small "garnishing" effects in the right place. The Ring is all about mythic magic, in your average operatic way, -- but you can obviously *sense* that The Tarnhelm is magical whever it is put on, and that its wearer is invisible because the timbre of the singer changes dramatically -- either by speaking tubes, or microphone special effects. It is a pity that Invisibility & Walking Unseen don't also slightly perturb the other senses: e.g., you can still hear & recognise voices, but they have an unworldy / eldrich / uncanny / foreboding / haunting distortion [choose 1 or more appropriate flavours] Likewise, I will always prefer any item with a history or flavour to its write-up over anything similar that can be described as "merely a ..." > In responce to a few things that annoyed me in DQ I started to run my > games solely by candlelight. I found that the amounts of out of game > conversation and wandering attention dramatically reduced. Cute idea, but *this* GM demands his right to receive sustenance from a plane beyond the ken of normal Alusians [namely, wherever his Coffe-machine, I mean Cornucopia of Ambrosia, exists] Michael Parkinson Assistant Librarian Email: m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz Science Library Phone: (9) 3737 599 x 5858 University of Auckland Fax: (9) 3082 304 -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Nov 17 14:31:17 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id OAA17482; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 14:31:17 +1300 Received: from peace.com (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id OAA17472 ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 14:31:16 +1300 Received: via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/pcnz2.7) id OAA10189; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 14:19:49 +1300 Message-ID: <3650D0C4.B62300D@peace.com> Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 14:26:28 +1300 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5b2 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Genre, Manatech, etc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Michael Parkinson wrote: > The Ring is all about mythic magic, in your average operatic way, -- but > you can obviously *sense* that The Tarnhelm is magical whever it is put > on, and that its wearer is invisible because the timbre of the singer > changes dramatically -- either by speaking tubes, or microphone special > effects. It is a pity that Invisibility & Walking Unseen don't also > slightly perturb the other senses: e.g., you can still hear & recognise > voices, but they have an unworldy / eldrich / uncanny / foreboding / > haunting distortion [choose 1 or more appropriate flavours] In the Ring a modification to the singer's voice is being used as a theratrical device to "show" to the audience that the character is now invisible -- even though they can still be seen. Writing a description of this into Walking Unseen or Invis wouldn't have the desired effect I think -- to achieve the same effect as the opera would require that the player of the Invis character spoke in an eldritch and otherworldly voice, so as to "show" the other players that their PC was invisible. This might be uncanny and dramatic, and carry a sense of foreboding if: a) the player doing it was good at it. b) there was only one person doing it at a time c) the character wasn't Flamis. :) (sorry, Jacqui, I just couldn't resist). :) :) I do like the idea of trying to make magic more dramatic and mysterious and some theatrical tricks and devices may be useful... but I can see this one slidng quickly from the sublime to the truly ridiculous. In keeping with the idea of Invis as semi-off-plane and plagarising blatantly from Lovecraft (thank you for the reminder Adam), how about some otherworldy entities that hang around at the thin spots of the walls between planes and attack those that cross the boundary. That should make people think twice about going Unseen. Cheers, Martin -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Nov 17 15:27:07 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id PAA17562; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 15:27:07 +1300 Received: from kcbbs.gen.nz (kcbbs.gen.nz [202.14.102.1]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id PAA17551 ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 15:27:07 +1300 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by kcbbs.gen.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA17493 ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 15:12:38 +1300 (NZDT) Message-ID: <3650D930.1E9285DA@games.co.nz> Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 15:02:24 +1300 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: I wonder..... Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Mike Young To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. amtennant@worley.co.nz wrote: > >> Why? Spell that affect a victim (or victims) and not the environment have > >> normal Magic Resistance saving throws. Why should this spell be different, > > >> irrelevant of it's mind-numbing nature. Is the spell harder to resist, > >> somehow? If so, why? > > >There are spells out there which measure against the victim's stats: e.g., > >strength checks to break out because the effect of the magic is acting > >against the victim's strength. Of course ALL mind-magic somewhat > >considers the WP of the victim(s). The point is NOT that the spell is > >harder to resist, the point is that it is, perhaps, a direct attack on > >the willpower of the victim. It makes reasonable sense. > > That's not a valid comparison. There are no spells which make a "direct > attack" on strength. There ARE spells which have a physical effect component > which requires strength to counteract. > Even spells such as Sleep Gas give you a resistance to part of the spell and > a Stat check to another bit. Such spells are truly horrible. What about Increase Gravity or even Hands of Earth? But to mention a few... Regards, Michael Young -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Nov 17 15:40:31 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id PAA17597; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 15:40:31 +1300 Received: from fep1-orange.clear.net.nz (fep1-orange.clear.net.nz [203.97.32.1]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id PAA17588 ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 15:40:30 +1300 Received: from qed_akl_nt_1.qed.co.nz ([203.97.23.141]) by fep1-orange.clear.net.nz (1.5/1.11) with ESMTP id PAA21584; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 15:28:31 +1300 (NZDT) Received: by qed_akl_nt_1.qed.co.nz with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) id ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 15:29:16 +1300 Message-ID: <15A7D8BC5E3ED2119E2E0000F82150FC010A35@qed_akl_nt_1.qed.co.nz> Subject: RE: I wonder..... Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 15:29:11 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain From: Stephen Martin To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Increase Gravity and Hands of Earth both give a resitance check, if you fail then you start doing the stat checks. Windstorm is a more interesting example - no resistance, roll under 2 x (AG + PS) - penalty based on rank or be thrown prone taking minor damage (D-2). > -----Original Message----- > From: Mike Young [SMTP:mike@games.co.nz] > Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 1998 3:02 PM > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Subject: I wonder..... > > amtennant@worley.co.nz wrote: > > > >> Why? Spell that affect a victim (or victims) and not the > environment have > > >> normal Magic Resistance saving throws. Why should this spell be > different, > > > > >> irrelevant of it's mind-numbing nature. Is the spell harder to > resist, > > >> somehow? If so, why? > > > > >There are spells out there which measure against the victim's > stats: e.g., > > >strength checks to break out because the effect of the magic is > acting > > >against the victim's strength. Of course ALL mind-magic somewhat > > >considers the WP of the victim(s). The point is NOT that the > spell is > > >harder to resist, the point is that it is, perhaps, a direct > attack on > > >the willpower of the victim. It makes reasonable sense. > > > > That's not a valid comparison. There are no spells which make a > "direct > > attack" on strength. There ARE spells which have a physical effect > component > > which requires strength to counteract. > > Even spells such as Sleep Gas give you a resistance to part of the > spell and > > a Stat check to another bit. Such spells are truly horrible. > > What about Increase Gravity or even Hands of Earth? But to mention a > few... > > > Regards, > Michael Young > > > > -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Nov 17 15:51:37 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id PAA17639; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 15:51:37 +1300 Received: from smtp.worley.co.nz (smtp.worley.co.nz [202.36.210.250]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id PAA17629 ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 15:51:29 +1300 Received: by smtp.worley.co.nz(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.1 (569.2 2-6-1998)) id 4C2566BF.00155E4B ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 15:53:23 +1200 X-Lotus-FromDomain: WORLEY CONSULTANTS Message-ID: <4C2566BF.0013B5C3.00@smtp.worley.co.nz> Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 15:40:01 +1200 Subject: RE: I wonder..... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline From: amtennant@worley.co.nz To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >Increase Gravity and Hands of Earth both give a resitance check, if you >fail then you start doing the stat checks. >Windstorm is a more interesting example - no resistance, roll under 2 x >(AG + PS) - penalty based on rank or be thrown prone taking minor damage >(D-2). Nothing compared with Earth Tremor where you get a 1xAG or lie down a lot. 2x(AG+PS) can get pretty huge. Speaking of which, can someone clear up the cock up in the spell description which isn't actually english for me? Is it supposed to be 1 hex plus 1 hex radius per rank? 1 hex per rank? Sleep Gas is the worst - 2xEN or unconscious. Arg. You only get to resist the first bit, not the EN check. L8R, Adam. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Nov 17 15:59:35 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id PAA17683; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 15:59:35 +1300 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (root@tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id PAA17673 ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 15:59:34 +1300 Received: from [206.18.98.202] (p10-max8.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.98.202]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA09544 ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 15:48:04 +1300 Message-Id: <199811170248.PAA09544@smtp1.ihug.co.nz> X-Sender: flamis@pop.ihug.co.nz (Unverified) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 15:49:20 +1300 Subject: Re: Genre [was Re: Reverse engineering concealment magics] From: flamis@pop.ihug.co.nz (Jacqui Smith) To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >It becomes the outside appearance that we judge. A flying saucer is seen to be >high tech -- a flying galleon (or tea-cup for that matter) is seen to be >magic. A >"Jet-bike" seen in a fantasy setting jars, no matter its power source. > >The two areas become a lot less clear cut when considering very Gothic sci-fi. >Games workshop -- for the "Dark Eldar" in their 40K Sci-fi game -- are >bringing out >a model of a anti-gravity powered craft that loots all the world like flying >trireme, and that no-one would ever consider to be sci-fi if seen in a fantasy >setting. The Dune movie was full of advanced technology with a very baroque look that made it seem as much fantasy as science fiction. The personal shields were especially nifty... Ultimately it becomes more a matter of look-and-feel than magic versus tech, and therefore of player preconceptions. Jacqui -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Nov 17 16:14:32 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id QAA17749; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 16:14:32 +1300 Received: from fep1-orange.clear.net.nz (fep1-orange.clear.net.nz [203.97.32.1]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id QAA17738 ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 16:14:31 +1300 Received: from qed_akl_nt_1.qed.co.nz ([203.97.23.141]) by fep1-orange.clear.net.nz (1.5/1.11) with ESMTP id QAA04154; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 16:02:34 +1300 (NZDT) Received: by qed_akl_nt_1.qed.co.nz with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) id ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 16:03:18 +1300 Message-ID: <15A7D8BC5E3ED2119E2E0000F82150FC010A36@qed_akl_nt_1.qed.co.nz> Subject: RE: I wonder..... Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 16:03:10 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Stephen Martin To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Sleep Gas is ok, you only have to make the EN checks if you fail to resist. Air S9: Knockout Gas "...Any entity (including the Adept) within the gas must resist. If = they fail to resist, they must roll under 2 =D7 EN each pulse or fall unconscious (not asleep) while they remain within the gas." I see what you mean Earth Tremor though. Fast Track change to fix the area of effect anyone? > -----Original Message----- > From: amtennant@worley.co.nz [SMTP:amtennant@worley.co.nz] > Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 1998 4:40 PM > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Subject: RE: I wonder..... >=20 > >Increase Gravity and Hands of Earth both give a resitance check, if > you > >fail then you start doing the stat checks. >=20 > >Windstorm is a more interesting example - no resistance, roll under = 2 > x > >(AG + PS) - penalty based on rank or be thrown prone taking minor > damage > >(D-2). >=20 > Nothing compared with Earth Tremor where you get a 1xAG or lie down a > lot. > 2x(AG+PS) can get pretty huge. > Speaking of which, can someone clear up the cock up in the spell > description > which isn't actually english for me? > Is it supposed to be 1 hex plus 1 hex radius per rank? 1 hex per = rank? >=20 > Sleep Gas is the worst - 2xEN or unconscious. Arg. You only get to > resist > the first bit, not the EN check. >=20 > L8R, > Adam. >=20 -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Nov 17 16:12:18 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id QAA17723; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 16:12:18 +1300 Received: from kcbbs.gen.nz (kcbbs.gen.nz [202.14.102.1]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id QAA17714 ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 16:12:17 +1300 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by kcbbs.gen.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA22382 ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 15:57:48 +1300 (NZDT) Message-ID: <3650E10B.82C91393@games.co.nz> Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 15:35:55 +1300 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Candles in DQ Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Mike Young To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Mandos Mitchinson wrote: > Just on the topic of Tech in Games and things. > In responce to a few things that annoyed me in DQ I started to run my games > solely by candlelight. I found that the amounts of out of game conversation > and wandering attention dramatically reduced. > > It seems that the use of technology to play the game encourages a > technological feel and therefore a tech mindset which is decreased with the > use of candles and other non-tech playing aids. Thanks for sharing that observation Mandos. I have been meaning to try that for years now, but have never got around to it. I shall now have to give it a go. Regards, Michael Young -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Nov 17 17:14:23 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id RAA17850; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 17:14:23 +1300 Received: from smtp.worley.co.nz (smtp.worley.co.nz [202.36.210.250]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id RAA17841 ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 17:14:09 +1300 Received: by smtp.worley.co.nz(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.1 (569.2 2-6-1998)) id 4C2566BF.001BBD0A ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 17:02:58 +1200 X-Lotus-FromDomain: WORLEY CONSULTANTS Message-ID: <4C2566BF.0019D75D.00@smtp.worley.co.nz> Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 16:44:42 +1200 Subject: RE: I wonder..... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/mixed; Boundary="0__=EudbQrWH9CNkdl1XEzCVur88qg04WN8RoLS5uyx0WnzufNL89cNQ7LCf" Content-Disposition: inline From: amtennant@worley.co.nz To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. --0__=EudbQrWH9CNkdl1XEzCVur88qg04WN8RoLS5uyx0WnzufNL89cNQ7LCf Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Please respond to dq@dq.sf.org.nz To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz cc: (bcc: Adam M Tennant/Worley Consultants/NZ) Subject: RE: I wonder..... >Sleep Gas is ok, you only have to make the EN checks if you fail to >resist. >Air S9: Knockout Gas >"...Any entity (including the Adept) within the gas must resist. If they >fail to resist, they must roll under 2 --0__=EudbQrWH9CNkdl1XEzCVur88qg04WN8RoLS5uyx0WnzufNL89cNQ7LCf Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable =D7 EN each pulse or fall >unconscious (not asleep) while they remain within the gas." Cool, it's been changed. I didn't have a book to check with. >I see what you mean Earth Tremor though. Fast Track change to fix the= >area of effect anyone? Definately. It's just a typo. I think instead of hexes, it should just be 5' +5'\rank radius. It seem= s logical to be a radius spell. L8R, Adam. = --0__=EudbQrWH9CNkdl1XEzCVur88qg04WN8RoLS5uyx0WnzufNL89cNQ7LCf-- -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Nov 17 17:10:16 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id RAA17822; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 17:10:16 +1300 Received: from mail.iconz.co.nz (mail.iconz.co.nz [202.14.100.36]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id RAA17812 ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 17:10:13 +1300 Received: from mandos (e0.firewall.ak.iconz.net.nz [202.14.100.208]) by mail.iconz.co.nz (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA090480911275112 ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 16:58:32 +1300 (NZDT) Message-ID: <018f01be11de$5c884940$1564a8c0@mandos.ICONZ> Subject: Re: Candles in DQ Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 16:57:12 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 From: "Mandos Mitchinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >> In responce to a few things that annoyed me in DQ I started to run my games >> solely by candlelight. I found that the amounts of out of game conversation >> and wandering attention dramatically reduced. > >Thanks for sharing that observation Mandos. I have been meaning to try that for >years now, but have never got around to it. I shall now have to give it a go. I does take a little getting used to, I found I got good at making excuses to avoid turning the lights of for fights :-) Amazing how many fights in my last game were in dark pubs or at dusk :-) There is a downside, playing during the evenings with candlelight can have something of a soporific effect so it pays to keep the temperature reasonably low. :-) Mandos /s -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Nov 17 17:27:27 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id RAA17890; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 17:27:27 +1300 Received: from kcbbs.gen.nz (kcbbs.gen.nz [202.14.102.1]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id RAA17881 ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 17:27:27 +1300 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by kcbbs.gen.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA25783 ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 17:12:57 +1300 (NZDT) Message-ID: <3650EEDF.A4576AC8@games.co.nz> Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 16:34:55 +1300 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Magic Item Creation Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------6FF236B521DD43B101546167" From: Mike Young To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. --------------6FF236B521DD43B101546167 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mandos Mitchinson wrote: > On the magical laws front, I think the important thing to do with an Item you > create is to think of the history of where it came from, the act of writing a > short history can really aid in smoothing out and refining the definition of > the item and it tends to help remove the tech edge from stuff > as well by forcing you to think more about the item. This is ok as long as you keep it short. I don't want to read pages of crap to find out what an item does. But I get your drift. You could ask questions like: Is this within gendre? (Whatever that is?) Is this reasonable at this level of the game? (Too often ignored. You don't have to put every cool item you just thought of in your current game. Write it up and use it in the future or mention it in passing as something PC's can perhaps aspire to getting their filthy hands on at some stage in the future.) Will this item replace a player or a skill? (If so then you better think long and hard before you go any further.) Is this fair and reasonable? (Or just hasty, cool and somebody elses problem?) Just a few things too keep in mind. There are plenty more. Regards, Michael Young --------------6FF236B521DD43B101546167 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit  

Mandos Mitchinson wrote:

On the magical laws front, I think the important thing to do with an Item you create is to think of the history of where it came from, the act of writing a short history can really  aid in smoothing out and refining the definition of the item and it tends to help remove the tech edge from stuff
as well by forcing you to think more about the item.

This is ok as long as you keep it short. I don't want to read pages of crap to find out what an item does. But I get your drift.

You could ask questions like:
Is this within gendre? (Whatever that is?)

Is this reasonable at this level of the game? (Too often ignored. You don't have to put every cool item you just thought of in your current game. Write it up and use it in the future or mention it in passing as something PC's can perhaps aspire to getting their filthy hands on at some stage in the future.)

Will this item replace a player or a skill? (If so then you better think long and hard before you go any further.)

Is this fair and reasonable? (Or just hasty, cool and somebody elses problem?)

Just a few things too keep in mind. There are plenty more.
 

Regards,
Michael Young --------------6FF236B521DD43B101546167-- -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Nov 17 17:45:55 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id RAA17927; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 17:45:55 +1300 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (root@tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id RAA17917 ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 17:45:54 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p26-max24.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.102.218]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA22651 ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 17:34:26 +1300 Message-Id: <199811170434.RAA22651@smtp1.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: I wonder..... Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 17:32:33 +1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. ---------- From: amtennant@worley.co.nz To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Subject: RE: I wonder..... Date: Tuesday, November 17, 1998 5:44 PM Please respond to dq@dq.sf.org.nz To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz cc: (bcc: Adam M Tennant/Worley Consultants/NZ) Subject: RE: I wonder..... >Sleep Gas is ok, you only have to make the EN checks if you fail to >resist. >Air S9: Knockout Gas >"...Any entity (including the Adept) within the gas must resist. If they >fail to resist, they must roll under 2 × EN each pulse or fall >unconscious (not asleep) while they remain within the gas." Cool, it's been changed. I didn't have a book to check with. >I see what you mean Earth Tremor though. Fast Track change to fix the >area of effect anyone? Definately. It's just a typo. I think instead of hexes, it should just be 5' +5'\rank radius. It seems logical to be a radius spell. I don't know what the current write-up is, but the old one said one hex+one per Rank. I have always assumed that these were supposed to be contiguous. Consider the effect if someone had a Rank 10 Earth Tremor at 5ft +5ft per Rank. That would be a circle 110 ft across...Even if it was half that, that's a a pretty severe amount of ground doing the Twist... Jim. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Nov 17 17:49:59 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id RAA17958; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 17:49:59 +1300 Received: from smtp.worley.co.nz (smtp.worley.co.nz [202.36.210.250]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id RAA17947 ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 17:49:57 +1300 Received: by smtp.worley.co.nz(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.1 (569.2 2-6-1998)) id 4C2566BF.00203E8A ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 17:52:11 +1200 X-Lotus-FromDomain: WORLEY CONSULTANTS Message-ID: <4C2566BF.001ECC09.00@smtp.worley.co.nz> Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 17:38:40 +1200 Subject: Re: I wonder..... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline From: amtennant@worley.co.nz To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >>I think instead of hexes, it should just be 5' +5'\rank radius. It seems >>logical to be a radius spell. >I don't know what the current write-up is, but the old one said one hex+one >per Rank. I have always assumed that these were supposed to be contiguous. >Consider the effect if someone had a Rank 10 Earth Tremor at 5ft +5ft per >Rank. That would be a circle 110 ft across...Even if it was half that, >that's a a pretty severe amount of ground doing the Twist... Yeah, I thought about that after I sent it. It is a huge area. But I seem to remember it being quite a high EM. Perhaps 1 hex radius per 4 full ranks or somesuch. E.g at rank 8 you get a hex plus 2 rings of hexes around that. L8R, Adam. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Nov 17 17:56:42 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id RAA17990; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 17:56:42 +1300 Received: from fep1-orange.clear.net.nz (fep1-orange.clear.net.nz [203.97.32.1]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id RAA17980 ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 17:56:41 +1300 Received: from qed_akl_nt_1.qed.co.nz ([203.97.23.141]) by fep1-orange.clear.net.nz (1.5/1.11) with ESMTP id RAA11933; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 17:44:43 +1300 (NZDT) Received: by qed_akl_nt_1.qed.co.nz with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) id ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 17:45:23 +1300 Message-ID: <15A7D8BC5E3ED2119E2E0000F82150FC010A3B@qed_akl_nt_1.qed.co.nz> Subject: Earth Tremor Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 17:45:17 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Stephen Martin To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. CURRENT WRITE-UP: Earth Tremor (S-11) Range: 15 feet + 15 / Rank Duration: 5 seconds + 5 / Rank Experience Multiple: 350 Base Chance: 20% Resist: May not be resisted Storage: Investment, Ward, Magical Trap Target: Area Effect: By the use of this spell the Adept causes the very earth to pitch and roll uncontrollably as though in a tremendous earthquake. The area that may be affected is a 1 hex area of around (+ 1 / Rank). Any Entities within the Area must roll less than or equal to 1 =D7 AG to retain = their footing. Those who fail to remain standing fall prone immediately and may not rise for the duration of the tremor. Objects within the Area will tend to topple and roll around. If the spell is cast under part of, or all of, a building, wall, or other such construction, significant structural damage will occur, probably causing partial or total collapse. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Nov 17 18:16:48 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id SAA18072; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 18:16:48 +1300 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (root@tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id SAA18061 ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 18:16:47 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p58-max1.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.97.58]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA26399 ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 18:05:15 +1300 Message-Id: <199811170505.SAA26399@smtp1.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: I wonder..... Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 18:03:22 +1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. ---------- > From: amtennant@worley.co.nz > > But I seem to remember it being quite a high EM. > Perhaps 1 hex radius per 4 full ranks or somesuch. > > E.g at rank 8 you get a hex plus 2 rings of hexes around that. At the moment, the spell has a fairly small area of effect if you were trying to make a circular area of effect. So far, you're actually increasing the area of effect, although not until Rank 12...Still... Is there anything wrong with the area of effect at the moment? Jim. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Nov 17 22:51:47 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id WAA18382; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 22:51:47 +1300 Received: from kcbbs.gen.nz (kcbbs.gen.nz [202.14.102.1]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id WAA18371 ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 22:51:46 +1300 Received: from LOCALNAME (as5200-30.kcbbs.gen.nz [202.14.102.60]) by kcbbs.gen.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA14361 ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 22:37:12 +1300 (NZDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.16.19981117220006.20d76472@kcbbs.gen.nz> X-Sender: salient@kcbbs.gen.nz X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (16) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 22:00:06 Subject: Spell Explanations Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: Brent & Sally To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. I think it is imperative that spell descriptions give an indication as to how the spell achieves its affects. This is necessary in order to increase the chances of getting more consistant rulings when spells are used in unusual circumstances or used imaginatively to achieve things that the spell was not designed for. For example, I have had a creative E+E mage turn himself invisible while trekking across the desert in order to avoid getting sunburnt. As GM I ruled that this would work, based on my assumption that E+E Invisibility made things transparent. Other GMs may well rule differently. If the spell had some explanantion as to how it works, then consistancy would be easier to maintain. [I acknowlege that some people do not see consistancy as desirable, so please do not feel compelled to rehash that argument]. Cheers, Brent. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from --