From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Dec 9 08:47:39 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id IAA15318; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 08:47:39 +1300 Received: from peace.com (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id IAA15311 ; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 08:47:31 +1300 Received: via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/pcnz2.7) id IAA22838; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 08:42:21 +1300 Message-ID: <366D8304.F02ED04A@peace.com> Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 08:50:28 +1300 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5b2 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Costs? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Jacqui Smith wrote: > Basically because the rules which calculate costings in both Armourer and > Weaponsmith are broken. They make no allowance for the cost of the Armourer > or Weaponsmith's *time*. Now, I happen to think that ten weeks of a master > craftman's time is worth considerably more than 2,850 sp... 10 weeks is almost 1/5 year, ergo 2,850 sp for 10 weeks represents a potential annual income of 14,820 sp. A Master crafter in a lucrative trade (such as Armourer) could expect their annual income to be in the 10k to 15k category, with Guildmasters taking in perhaps 20k. This is of course not to say that the armouring costs are wrong. as they were probably pulled pretty much from thin air when the skill was written. :) Recommendations anyone? Cheers, Martin -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Dec 9 09:08:23 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id JAA15351; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 09:08:23 +1300 Received: from mail.iconz.co.nz (mail.iconz.co.nz [202.14.100.36]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id JAA15344 ; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 09:08:22 +1300 Received: from mandos (e0.firewall.ak.iconz.net.nz [202.14.100.208]) by mail.iconz.co.nz (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA146870913147391 ; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 09:03:11 +1300 (NZDT) Message-ID: <004901be22e5$8ac0d120$1564a8c0@mandos.ICONZ> Subject: Re: Costs? Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 09:01:27 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 From: "Mandos Mitchinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >10 weeks is almost 1/5 year, ergo 2,850 sp for 10 weeks represents a potential >annual income of 14,820 sp. > >A Master crafter in a lucrative trade (such as Armourer) could expect their >annual income to be in the 10k to 15k category, with Guildmasters taking in >perhaps 20k. > >This is of course not to say that the armouring costs are wrong. as they were >probably pulled pretty much from thin air when the skill was written. :) Not really a recommendation as such but since in most case people will not be able to purchase armour of that quality it is somewhat unfair to use high ranked armour as the basis for their wage. Few people will buy it? Seagate armourers would be different to armourers anywhere else as well. Mandos .s -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Dec 9 10:05:23 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id KAA15456; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 10:05:23 +1300 Received: from fclaklmr01.fcl.co.nz ([203.98.14.148] (may be forged)) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id KAA15449 ; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 10:05:16 +1300 Received: from falaklnt000.falum.co.nz ([10.8.1.20]) by fclaklmr01.fcl.co.nz (Post.Office MTA v3.5.1 release 219 ID# 0-0U10L2S100) with SMTP id nz ; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 09:04:48 +1300 Received: by falaklnt000.falum.co.nz with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5) id <01BE2353.054E5530@falaklnt000.falum.co.nz>; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 09:05:09 +1300 Message-ID: Subject: RE: Armour Costs Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 09:05:04 +1300 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Andrew Withy (FAL AKL)" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. I think costs for armoursmithed armour are overvalued, for two reasons. 1) If Plate costs ~3000, then Rank 10 Plate costs ~30k. This is the valuation of seriously good porcelain/magical armour, with very low weight, a funky ability or lots of protection. No adventurer would buy armoursmithed armour (and the game/book price is for adventurers). 2) It isn't difficult to take out a dozen Azurian Elves (or knights of any sort). Armour valued at ~30k, even if we can wear it, is too much. This gives too much $$$ treasure for adventurers. I suggest that each rank of armourer should add ~20% to value, not 100%. (Or only for metal?) Thus, a formula like (1+Rank/5)*cost, not (1+Rank)*cost. This makes Rank 10 armour 3 times the cost of Rank 0 armour. This feels better both buying and selling. Andrew > -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Dec 9 10:30:54 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id KAA15500; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 10:30:54 +1300 Received: from mail.iconz.co.nz (mail.iconz.co.nz [202.14.100.36]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id KAA15493 ; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 10:30:52 +1300 Received: from mandos (e0.firewall.ak.iconz.net.nz [202.14.100.208]) by mail.iconz.co.nz (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA079540913152339 ; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 10:25:39 +1300 (NZDT) Message-ID: <006b01be22f1$10ca2ae0$1564a8c0@mandos.ICONZ> Subject: Re: Armour Costs Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 10:23:56 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 From: "Mandos Mitchinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >I suggest that each rank of armourer should add ~20% to value, not 100%. >(Or only for metal?) >Thus, a formula like (1+Rank/5)*cost, not (1+Rank)*cost. >This makes Rank 10 armour 3 times the cost of Rank 0 armour. > >This feels better both buying and selling. I woula also like to see armoursmithed armour above a certain rank, or if embued with certain abilities be specifically fitted to the individual, and require modification by similar ranked armourer before it can be worn by others. Mandos /s -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Dec 9 12:48:46 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id MAA15653; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 12:48:46 +1300 Received: from fep1-orange.clear.net.nz (fep1-orange.clear.net.nz [203.97.32.1]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id MAA15646 ; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 12:48:44 +1300 Received: from qed_akl_nt_1.qed.co.nz ([203.97.23.141]) by fep1-orange.clear.net.nz (1.5/1.11) with ESMTP id MAA00022; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 12:42:58 +1300 (NZDT) Received: by qed_akl_nt_1.qed.co.nz with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) id ; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 12:42:32 +1300 Message-ID: <15A7D8BC5E3ED2119E2E0000F82150FC0B8473@qed_akl_nt_1.qed.co.nz> Subject: RE: Armour Costs Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 12:42:24 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain From: Stephen Martin To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. I agree that the armourer and weaponsmith costs don't make sense. And are not consistent with reasonable valuations of items. Another option is to work out price based on materials and time. E.g. Plate Armour Material Cost = 2,000 sp. Smithing Cost (Coal, apprentices, etc.) = 10sp per day. Cost of Smiths' time = 40sp (+ 3 * effective rank) per day (Based on 12,000 - 21,000 per year over 300 working days). Time to Build = 15 Days (+ 5 per effective rank) So Plate Armour always has a material cost of 2,000 (more or less for other metals). And the market value is: Rk 0 = 2,750sp Rk 1 = 3,060sp Rk 2 = 3,400sp Rk 3 = 3,770sp Rk 4 = 4,170sp Rk 5 = 4,600sp Rk 6 = 5,060sp Rk 7 = 5,550sp Rk 8 = 6,070sp Rk 9 = 6,620sp Rk10 = 7,200sp Obviously this isn't as simple to work out as (1 + rank) * 80% of book value, so we'd probably want to put it in a reference table. However the numbers do feel about right. And it makes it simple and logical if using alternate materials or if you already have the materials and just want them smithed, or for working out the cost of doing it yourself. Cheers, Stephen. > -----Original Message----- > From: Andrew Withy (FAL AKL) [SMTP:AndrewW@falum.co.nz] > Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 1998 9:05 AM > > I think costs for armoursmithed armour are overvalued, for two > reasons. > > I suggest that each rank of armourer should add ~20% to value, not > 100%. > (Or only for metal?) > Thus, a formula like (1+Rank/5)*cost, not (1+Rank)*cost. > This makes Rank 10 armour 3 times the cost of Rank 0 armour. > > This feels better both buying and selling. > > Andrew > -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Dec 9 14:19:52 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id OAA15767; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 14:19:52 +1300 Received: from fclaklmr01.fcl.co.nz ([203.98.14.148] (may be forged)) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id OAA15760 ; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 14:19:44 +1300 Received: from falaklnt000.falum.co.nz ([10.8.1.20]) by fclaklmr01.fcl.co.nz (Post.Office MTA v3.5.1 release 219 ID# 0-0U10L2S100) with SMTP id nz ; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 14:12:21 +1300 Received: by falaklnt000.falum.co.nz with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5) id <01BE237D.DFF19BF0@falaklnt000.falum.co.nz>; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 14:11:54 +1300 Message-ID: Subject: RE: Armour Costs Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 14:11:53 +1300 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Andrew Withy (FAL AKL)" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. For those who don't want the maths, Stephen's suggestion is roughly (1+Rank/9)*cost to (1+Rank/6)*cost. Remember that high-ranked Smiths can produce lesser work, and still expect a reasonable wage. Using Stephen's figures, and assuming professionals being at least Rank 5, we get roughly (1+Rank/7)*cost to (1+Rank/6)*cost. I still prefer (1+Rank/5) for simplicity, but Stephen's analysis shows that this is roughly a "market" price. Stephen's suggestion does deal with metal costs however. Say this (above) is the standard iron price. Add cost of weird metal, minus 2,000sp (iron cost). A little complex, but it beats a table any day. Andrew >---------- >From: Stephen Martin[SMTP:stephen@qed.co.nz] > >I agree that the armourer and weaponsmith costs don't make sense. And >are not consistent with reasonable valuations of items. > >Another option is to work out price based on materials and time. >E.g. Plate Armour >Material Cost = 2,000 sp. >Smithing Cost (Coal, apprentices, etc.) = 10sp per day. >Cost of Smiths' time = 40sp (+ 3 * effective rank) per day (Based on >12,000 - 21,000 per year over 300 working days). >Time to Build = 15 Days (+ 5 per effective rank) > >So Plate Armour always has a material cost of 2,000 (more or less for >other metals). >And the market value is: >Rk 0 = 2,750sp >Rk 1 = 3,060sp >Rk 2 = 3,400sp >Rk 3 = 3,770sp >Rk 4 = 4,170sp >Rk 5 = 4,600sp >Rk 6 = 5,060sp >Rk 7 = 5,550sp >Rk 8 = 6,070sp >Rk 9 = 6,620sp >Rk10 = 7,200sp > >Obviously this isn't as simple to work out as (1 + rank) * 80% of book >value, so we'd probably want to put it in a reference table. However >the numbers do feel about right. >And it makes it simple and logical if using alternate materials or if >you already have the materials and just want them smithed, or for >working out the cost of doing it yourself. > >Cheers, Stephen. > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Andrew Withy (FAL AKL) [SMTP:AndrewW@falum.co.nz] >> Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 1998 9:05 AM >> >> I think costs for armoursmithed armour are overvalued, for two >> reasons. >> >> I suggest that each rank of armourer should add ~20% to value, not >> 100%. >> (Or only for metal?) >> Thus, a formula like (1+Rank/5)*cost, not (1+Rank)*cost. >> This makes Rank 10 armour 3 times the cost of Rank 0 armour. >> >> This feels better both buying and selling. >> >> Andrew >> > >-- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- > -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Dec 9 14:59:59 1998 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id OAA15833; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 14:59:59 +1300 Received: from peace.com (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id OAA15826 ; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 14:59:52 +1300 Received: via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/pcnz2.7) id OAA16450; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 14:54:28 +1300 Message-ID: <366DDA3D.759530A7@peace.com> Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 15:02:37 +1300 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5b2 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Armour Costs Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. "Andrew Withy (FAL AKL)" wrote: > Remember that high-ranked Smiths can produce lesser work, and still > expect a reasonable wage. One of the abilities in the most recent version of Artisan allows highly ranked crafters to produce low ranked work quickly. Basically a Rank 10 potter can turn out bulk standard Rank 0 pots faster than a rank 0 potter. From memory the rank 10 can turn out 5 pots in the time it take the apprentice to make 1. Perhaps something like this? Cheers, Martin -- See message headers to unsubscribe from --