From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jan 27 00:16:05 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id AAA10895; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 00:16:05 +1300 Received: from mail.iconz.co.nz (mail.iconz.co.nz [210.48.22.36]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id AAA10888 ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 00:16:04 +1300 Received: from mandos (e0.firewall.ak.iconz.net.nz [202.14.100.208]) by mail.iconz.co.nz (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id NAA042920917395411 ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:03:31 +1300 (NZDT) Message-ID: <01ea01be4988$4f1b9460$0d64a8c0@mandos.iconz> Subject: Re: DQ- SK Spell prices Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:02:19 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 From: "Mandos Mitchinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >> On a slight change of topic what are the current Cash limits and treasure >> limits for adventures? I recently heard of a party of very low characters >> now equiped with 50K worth of dragonskin armour! The character who did not >> get armour got the cash. Surely a second adventure character should not have >> that much cash, enough we note to purchase any top level spell in the game. , > >Before we begin weathering another storm -- can we see if it is in a tea-cup >please? > >Could we perhaps have verification of this rumour? The character who got the cash was one of Manu Erwins Characters who is a flying squirrel :-) He was asking me the other day if it was too soon to buy necrosis after his second adventure. I believe Jon McSpadden has the characters with the armour on his current game and was wondering what to do about it. I can check with these people for verification if you like. Mandos -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jan 27 00:37:20 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id AAA10936; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 00:37:20 +1300 Received: from peace.com (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id AAA10929 ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 00:37:17 +1300 Received: via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/pcnz2.7) id NAA14542; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:24:41 +1300 Message-ID: <36AE5F09.8D0AE127@peace.com> Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:34:17 +1300 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: DQ- SK Spell prices Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------2C2E6D2E974A8543F8131A50" From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------2C2E6D2E974A8543F8131A50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mandos Mitchinson wrote: > >Could we perhaps have verification of this rumour? > > The character who got the cash was one of Manu Erwins Characters who is a > flying squirrel :-) Oh dear, we'll let just anyone into the Guild these days. I knew it was all going to be downhill after we let the Orcs in. :) > He was asking me the other day if it was too soon to buy necrosis after his > second adventure. Errr..... yes? > I believe Jon McSpadden has the characters with the armour > on his current game and was wondering what to do about it. > > I can check with these people for verification if you like. I think this is worth checking up on. I may be some sort of anomaly -- was Manu's character perhaps a bunny on a mid+ level adventure, was there some big drawback attached, and that sort of thing. Anyone want to volunteer information? Anyone willing to admit to being responsible for this? :) Cheers, Martin --------------2C2E6D2E974A8543F8131A50 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="martin.dickson.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Martin Dickson Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="martin.dickson.vcf" begin:vcard n:Dickson;Martin tel;fax:+64-9-373 0401 tel;work:+64-9-373 0400 x-mozilla-html:FALSE org:Peace Software International;Software Development version:2.1 email;internet:martin.dickson@peace.com title:Team Leader adr;quoted-printable:;;Peace Tower =0D=0ASt. Martins Lane;Auckland;;;New Zealand fn:Martin Dickson end:vcard --------------2C2E6D2E974A8543F8131A50-- -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jan 27 00:48:04 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id AAA10990; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 00:48:04 +1300 Received: from mail.iconz.co.nz (mail.iconz.co.nz [210.48.22.36]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id AAA10983 ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 00:48:03 +1300 Received: from mandos (e0.firewall.ak.iconz.net.nz [202.14.100.208]) by mail.iconz.co.nz (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id NAA127800917397327 ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:35:27 +1300 (NZDT) Message-ID: <01f901be498c$c5b89510$0d64a8c0@mandos.iconz> Subject: Re: DQ- SK Spell prices Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:34:16 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 From: "Mandos Mitchinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >> I can check with these people for verification if you like. > >I think this is worth checking up on. I may be some sort of anomaly -- was >Manu's character perhaps a bunny on a mid+ level adventure, was there some big >drawback attached, and that sort of thing. As far as I am aware it was a low level adventure. And as far as I am aware there are no major strings attatched. In Manu's case he simply got a lot of cash because he could not use the armour. Mandos /s -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jan 27 00:47:48 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id AAA10968; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 00:47:48 +1300 Received: from mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (mailhost.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.1.4]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id AAA10961 ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 00:47:47 +1300 Received: from sci4 (lbr-122-42.lbrsc.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.122.42]) by mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (8.9.2/8.9.2/8.9.2-ua) with SMTP id NAA24921 ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:35:12 +1300 (NZDT) Message-Id: <199901270035.NAA24921@mailhost.auckland.ac.nz> Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:34:54 +0000 Subject: Re: Players Guide V2 - Progress Report X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) From: "Michael Parkinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-to: m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Rosemary > GM contact list > This was in the previous guide. Could those GM's who are prepared to be on > the new list please provide me with i) overt permission to publish contact > details, yes, for my details. > and ii) the following info: name : Mike Parkinson email address : m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz ph number : 3570 725 (home) regds, michael Michael Parkinson Information Services A/L Science Library, University of Auckland. Email: m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz Phone: (09) 3737 599 x 5858 Fax: (09) 3082 304 -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jan 27 01:05:57 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id BAA11041; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 01:05:57 +1300 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id BAA11034 ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 01:05:54 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p47-max11.akl.ihug.co.nz [209.78.49.175]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA08754 ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:53:15 +1300 Message-Id: <199901270053.NAA08754@smtp1.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: DQ- SK Spell prices Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:50:58 +1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. ---------- > From: Mandos Mitchinson > > On a slight change of topic what are the current Cash limits and treasure > limits for adventures? I recently heard of a party of very low characters > now equiped with 50K worth of dragonskin armour! The character who did not > get armour got the cash. Surely a second adventure character should not have > that much cash, enough we note to purchase any top level spell in the game. > > Can we fix this?? This kind of problem is always going to be with us, I'm afraid. I don't think there is a simple solution to it. The problem is caused by: 1) the DM being a bit soft on money, and placing too much treasure, accidentally or on purpose...This has happened to me, once, in some confusion over conversion rates from gold to truesilver. We can all agree that placing too much treasure on purpose is not good, but you can never make allowances for an error...They just happen. 2) the ingenuity of the players. If the players come up with a sound and sensible plan for making a lot of money that you haven't considered in your game, then if you don't allow it, you run the risk of damaging the credibility of your game. That is much worse than defeating a few players' attempts to make a buck. This is, after all, a game about suspension of disbelief, and when that is stretched beyond supportability, then you taint their, and your own, enjoyment of the game. And the reason you do this is to subscribe to some rule, somewhere. Happily, with experience, your ability to improvise a sound and sensible reason why the players don't make a lot of money, improves. So, in conclusion, I think that the problem, such as it is, happens as a result of inexperience on the part of the DM, and tends to go away with time. As new DMs enter the arena, the problem raises its head, once again, and is dealt with once again. No, I don't think we need to do anything about it, except to raise the point with those DMs that have made such an 'error'... Jim. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jan 27 01:06:12 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id BAA11061; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 01:06:12 +1300 Received: from exchange.telebusiness.co.nz ([203.97.136.3] (may be forged)) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id BAA11054 ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 01:06:08 +1300 Received: by proxy.telebusiness.co.nz with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1461.28) id ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:53:27 +1300 Message-ID: <01FAE6CB4A43D0118AB00020AF0F92575BBE96@proxy.telebusiness.co.nz> Subject: RE: DQ- SK Spell prices Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:53:24 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1461.28) Content-Type: text/plain From: Terry Spencer To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Rumor and speculation is great! The stories I've heard second hand are always amusing. Perhaps some concrete fact rather that dramatics, we know nothing of the events of the game and often excess reward is warranted. Regardless, excess money is being given out, this is a known problem. This issue has been raised before. A while ago the treasure maximums were reviewed, reissues and mostly ignored. Perhaps we should discuss what people feel monetary maximums rewards should be. To reiterate a point I raised before, why don't we review the spell list and make spells like this unavailable to general purchase. Terry Terry Spencer SITEL Telebusiness NZ Ltd Phone +64 9 3738919 > -----Original Message----- > From: Martin Dickson [SMTP:martin.dickson@peace.com] > Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 1999 1:34 PM > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Subject: Re: DQ- SK Spell prices > > Mandos Mitchinson wrote: > > > >Could we perhaps have verification of this rumour? > > > > The character who got the cash was one of Manu Erwins Characters who is > a > > flying squirrel :-) > > Oh dear, we'll let just anyone into the Guild these days. I knew it was > all > going to be downhill after we let the Orcs in. :) > > > He was asking me the other day if it was too soon to buy necrosis after > his > > second adventure. > > Errr..... yes? > > > I believe Jon McSpadden has the characters with the armour > > on his current game and was wondering what to do about it. > > > > I can check with these people for verification if you like. > > I think this is worth checking up on. I may be some sort of anomaly -- > was > Manu's character perhaps a bunny on a mid+ level adventure, was there some > big > drawback attached, and that sort of thing. > > Anyone want to volunteer information? Anyone willing to admit to being > responsible for this? :) > > Cheers, > Martin > << File: Card for Martin Dickson >> -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jan 27 01:06:20 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id BAA11083; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 01:06:20 +1300 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id BAA11076 ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 01:06:19 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p47-max11.akl.ihug.co.nz [209.78.49.175]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA08742 ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:53:13 +1300 Message-Id: <199901270053.NAA08742@smtp1.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: DQ- SK Spell prices Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:37:09 +1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. ---------- > From: Terry Spencer > > I would like to see the spells available from the guild reduces. I believe > its too easy to acquire spells (i.e. get a pile of cash) and should be more > challenging to a player. I agree, in general. I think that it is possible to rationalise something along those lines, given the recent loss of various Guild heads... The only college I'm happy with having the existing range of spells is the Mind College. It's a pretty hard row to hoe, that one, and I'm happy with them having their current availability. Jim. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jan 27 01:06:41 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id BAA11107; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 01:06:41 +1300 Received: from mail.iconz.co.nz (mail.iconz.co.nz [210.48.22.36]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id BAA11100 ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 01:06:40 +1300 Received: from mandos (e0.firewall.ak.iconz.net.nz [202.14.100.208]) by mail.iconz.co.nz (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id NAA183330917398444 ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:54:04 +1300 (NZDT) Message-ID: <021001be498f$5f683b50$0d64a8c0@mandos.iconz> Subject: Re: DQ- SK Spell prices Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:52:53 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 From: "Mandos Mitchinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >I think this is worth checking up on. I may be some sort of anomaly -- was >Manu's character perhaps a bunny on a mid+ level adventure, was there some big >drawback attached, and that sort of thing. > >Anyone want to volunteer information? Anyone willing to admit to being >responsible for this? :) Full details are as follows.... As far as I know the level of adventure was low (might have been low-medium as there were characters who had a few adventures under their belts). GM: Jeff Ledra Circumstances: The cash (or rather value of money) was calculated by Jeff when he was working out the treasure split for writeups/tax etc. I reckon the reason that it was so much was due to the dragonskin that we got given (6 suits * 50,000 is a fair whack.). For the actual circumstances you would have to ask the scribe (Hagan) Mike Parkinson for the details. (Fairly sure it was Mike. Sorry, all I can remember is that the Green dragon got killed and we picked up some of its skin. The money Totals have been grabbed from a treasure split doc sent by Jeff to the players. Total money value, less tax - 577666.80. Therefore, each persons split (except John and Morgan) is 82523sp. The party listed were Hagan Cyan Alexander Thorin: John: Sardak: I know Hagan is medium to medium high? Alexander is a two game character. At least one other character is less than 3 adventures. Mandos /s -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jan 27 01:47:16 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id BAA11168; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 01:47:16 +1300 Received: from peace.com (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id BAA11161 ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 01:47:12 +1300 Received: via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/pcnz2.7) id OAA19616; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 14:34:33 +1300 Message-ID: <36AE6F6A.89F9922A@peace.com> Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 14:44:10 +1300 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: DQ- SK Spell prices Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------D482535FA5B919B6E1244147" From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------D482535FA5B919B6E1244147 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Oh dear, It may take a while to get this grin off my face. We really should hear Jeff's story, but for the meanwhile -- and to explain the grin -- listen up young 'uns and Uncle Martin will tell you a tale.... Once upon a time, back when the universe was younger and I was a mere stripling of some 18 months DQ GMing experience there was a great meeting of the gods at our home, which in those days was in the Third Avenue of the Land of the King. Many weighty matters were discussed and there was much argument, for it was that one of the Old Ones had returned from far over seas and was much wroth with what had been done with his world in his absence, and wished to enact laws that would prevent further decadence and decay. Many of those present were not happy with some of the new laws, but we agreed, for he was one of the Founders and we were but mere mortals. And so the laws were passed, and lo they exist even now, having come down to you as the Great Commandments of DQ. And one of these laws told how much great treasure may be recieved by plebs, and how much by heroes, and though it may have been slightly altered in later ages of the world, it is still essentially the same law that was passed those many years ago. And the name of the Old One? Well... anyway.... now you understand why I grin. :) - Martin --- Mandos Mitchinson wrote: > >I think this is worth checking up on. I may be some sort of anomaly -- was > >Manu's character perhaps a bunny on a mid+ level adventure, was there some > big > >drawback attached, and that sort of thing. > > > >Anyone want to volunteer information? Anyone willing to admit to being > >responsible for this? :) > > Full details are as follows.... > > > > As far as I know the level of adventure was low (might have been low-medium > as there were characters who had a few adventures under their belts). > > GM: Jeff Ledra > > Circumstances: The cash (or rather value of money) was calculated by Jeff > when he was working out the treasure split for writeups/tax etc. > > I reckon the reason that it was so much was due to the dragonskin that we > got given (6 suits * 50,000 is a fair whack.). > > For the actual circumstances you would have to ask the scribe (Hagan) Mike > Parkinson for the details. (Fairly sure it was Mike. > > Sorry, all I can remember is that the Green dragon got killed and we picked > up some of its skin. > > > > The money Totals have been grabbed from a treasure split doc sent by Jeff to > the players. > > Total money value, less tax - 577666.80. > Therefore, each persons split (except John and Morgan) is 82523sp. > > The party listed were > Hagan > Cyan > Alexander > Thorin: > John: > Sardak: > > I know Hagan is medium to medium high? > Alexander is a two game character. > At least one other character is less than 3 adventures. > > Mandos > /s > > -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- --------------D482535FA5B919B6E1244147 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="martin.dickson.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Martin Dickson Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="martin.dickson.vcf" begin:vcard n:Dickson;Martin tel;fax:+64-9-373 0401 tel;work:+64-9-373 0400 x-mozilla-html:FALSE org:Peace Software International;Software Development version:2.1 email;internet:martin.dickson@peace.com title:Team Leader adr;quoted-printable:;;Peace Tower =0D=0ASt. Martins Lane;Auckland;;;New Zealand fn:Martin Dickson end:vcard --------------D482535FA5B919B6E1244147-- -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jan 27 01:59:00 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id BAA11200; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 01:59:00 +1300 Received: from mail.iconz.co.nz (mail.iconz.co.nz [210.48.22.36]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id BAA11193 ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 01:58:58 +1300 Received: from mandos (e0.firewall.ak.iconz.net.nz [202.14.100.208]) by mail.iconz.co.nz (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id OAA039120917401581 ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 14:46:21 +1300 (NZDT) Message-ID: <02e201be4996$ad425480$0d64a8c0@mandos.iconz> Subject: Re: DQ- SK Spell prices Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 14:45:09 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 From: "Mandos Mitchinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >Regardless, excess money is being given out, this is a known problem. This >issue has been raised before. A while ago the treasure maximums were >reviewed, reissues and mostly ignored. > >Perhaps we should discuss what people feel monetary maximums rewards should >be. My thoughts on treasure maximums would be something along the lines of 6-8K as a maximum for Bunny or very low games. 12-16K as a maximum for low end of medium. 18- 24K as a maximum for Medium adventures 40-50K for a medium to high adventure With maybe 100K as a maximum reward for the highs? Am I too cheap? Mandos /s -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jan 27 02:56:40 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id CAA11257; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 02:56:40 +1300 Received: from fclaklmr01.fcl.co.nz ([203.98.14.148] (may be forged)) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id CAA11250 ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 02:56:39 +1300 Received: from falaklnt000.falum.co.nz ([10.8.1.20]) by fclaklmr01.fcl.co.nz (Post.Office MTA v3.5.1 release 219 ID# 0-0U10L2S100) with SMTP id nz ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:43:29 +1300 Received: by falaklnt000.falum.co.nz with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5) id <01BE4A0C.5BEB68D0@falaklnt000.falum.co.nz>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:47:35 +1300 Message-ID: Subject: GMs - Oops I slipped Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:47:32 +1300 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Andrew Withy (FAL AKL)" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Your suggestion looks like reasonable limits to me - they are high, but this is a maximum. Occasionally GMs will break these limits, occasionally parties will make a loss or just break even. If a GM slips up and lets out too much treasure, then they don't get the chance to tidy up after themselves easily due to the multi-GM nature of our game. I believe that the players affected and other GMs should tidy up after that GM. I've had help from Michael Parkinson in dealing with loose cash from an evil & conniving party who caught me when I was tired. Dragon skin is destroyed by Spec Grevs - that's easy to deal with. The rest is only money - it can be frittered by the character, or the spell/items stolen, or whatever makes their next game (or the one after that) most exciting. This is the same as a stupid item being given out by a GM - ask the player and/or GM concerned whether you can change it, or just break it, depending on your style. Andrew ---------- From: Mandos Mitchinson [SMTP:mandos@iconz.co.nz] Sent: Thursday, 28 January 1999 2:45 To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Subject: Re: DQ- SK Spell prices >Regardless, excess money is being given out, this is a known problem. This >issue has been raised before. A while ago the treasure maximums were >reviewed, reissues and mostly ignored. > >Perhaps we should discuss what people feel monetary maximums rewards should >be. My thoughts on treasure maximums would be something along the lines of 6-8K as a maximum for Bunny or very low games. 12-16K as a maximum for low end of medium. 18- 24K as a maximum for Medium adventures 40-50K for a medium to high adventure With maybe 100K as a maximum reward for the highs? Am I too cheap? Mandos /s -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jan 27 03:35:39 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id DAA11324; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 03:35:39 +1300 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id DAA11317 ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 03:35:37 +1300 Received: from paul (p55-max17.akl.ihug.co.nz [207.212.239.55]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA31202 ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 16:22:56 +1300 Subject: RE: Players Guide V2 - Progress Report Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 16:24:06 +1300 Message-ID: <000001be49a4$7f320000$0264640a@paul> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 From: "P Schmidt" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Rosemary, I'd like to be on the list. As a sideline I'd also like the rewritten fire college in as well. I'd like to request that everyone who has further comments, notes on fire get them to me so they can be decided and voted on. The consultation process to date has been extensive (deliberately so - no use proposing things that will get knocked down). I'd especially like to hear from Martin, Jim, and Andrew Withy so a semi-final draft can be completed by yours truly for posting/voting indications by Friday. I'll bring this draft to the next Gods meeting. Cheers Paul > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of > rmansfield@aj.co.nz > Sent: Wednesday, 27 January 1999 12:17 > To: dq-announce@dq.sf.org.nz > Subject: Players Guide V2 - Progress Report > > > Good morning, > > I don't think this is going to be ready for the next Guild meeting: > > a) because I've still got about 20% of the 1st draft to go (including > intrinsic bits like services). > b) I've heard that some gods want a review of things like SK spell prices, > which could take a while. > Until this is done I can't put the whole thing in front of the gods. > c) once the gods have reviewed it, the document will need extensive proof > reading. > > With only 6 weeks to go I may not make it, but I am going to try and > arrange to publish the 1st draft shortly. > > GM contact list > This was in the previous guide. Could those GM's who are > prepared to be on > the new list please provide me with i) overt permission to publish contact > details, and ii) the following info: > > name > email address > ph number > > Thanks Rosemary > -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jan 27 03:59:10 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id DAA11366; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 03:59:10 +1300 Received: from arc.govt.nz ([202.36.252.2] (may be forged)) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id DAA11359 ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 03:59:08 +1300 Received: from DomPitt-Message_Server by arc.govt.nz with Novell_GroupWise; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 16:42:30 +1300 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 5.2 Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 16:41:44 +1300 Subject: Bardic college - review period Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline From: "Ian Wood" To: dq-announce@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq-announce@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Dear all, Is it my imagination or has the two year period of Bardic's introductory = period coming to an end? As I remember we have four options: 1 chuck it out 2 welcome it as a full and worthy college 3 roll over its preliminary status as a college under trial. 4 change chunks and then do either 1, 2 or 3 above Either way, I would prefer it to happen as a result of positive choice, = and not just because it slipped through on our amnesia/apathy. Could the kind chap who organised this sort of thing include it on an = appropriate agenda. (and I trust you had kind thoughts when you read that) Some may also wish to discuss this further on the dq discussion list, Regards, Ian -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jan 27 04:02:00 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id EAA11394; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 04:02:00 +1300 Received: from fclaklmr01.fcl.co.nz ([203.98.14.148] (may be forged)) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id EAA11387 ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 04:01:58 +1300 Received: from falaklnt000.falum.co.nz ([10.8.1.20]) by fclaklmr01.fcl.co.nz (Post.Office MTA v3.5.1 release 219 ID# 0-0U10L2S100) with SMTP id nz ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 16:48:48 +1300 Received: by falaklnt000.falum.co.nz with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5) id <01BE4A15.756F9C50@falaklnt000.falum.co.nz>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 16:52:43 +1300 Message-ID: Subject: RE: Bardic college - review period Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 16:52:41 +1300 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Andrew Withy (FAL AKL)" To: dq-announce@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq-announce@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Ditto Ice. ---------- Is it my imagination or has the two year period of Bardic's introductory period coming to an end? As I remember we have four options: 1 chuck it out 2 welcome it as a full and worthy college 3 roll over its preliminary status as a college under trial. 4 change chunks and then do either 1, 2 or 3 above -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jan 27 04:07:46 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id EAA11431; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 04:07:46 +1300 Received: from exchange.telebusiness.co.nz ([203.97.136.3] (may be forged)) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id EAA11424 ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 04:07:42 +1300 Received: by proxy.telebusiness.co.nz with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1461.28) id ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 16:54:54 +1300 Message-ID: <01FAE6CB4A43D0118AB00020AF0F92575BBE99@proxy.telebusiness.co.nz> Subject: RE: GMs - Oops I slipped Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 16:54:51 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1461.28) Content-Type: text/plain From: Terry Spencer To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. > This is the same as a stupid item being given out by a GM - ask the > player and/or GM concerned whether you can change it, or just break > it, depending on your style. > I immensely dislike the attitude of arbitrarily breaking an item as a GM if you dislike it. If there is a problem there are many approaches that can be taken; from applying a fix or simply asking the player to leave it at home. I believe there are exceptional circumstances that would advocate breaking an item and this is an action of resort. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jan 27 04:14:21 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id EAA11475; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 04:14:21 +1300 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id EAA11468 ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 04:14:19 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p72-tnt1.akl.ihug.co.nz [209.232.125.72]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA30053 ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 17:01:27 +1300 Message-Id: <199901270401.RAA30053@smtp1.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: Bardic college - review period Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 16:56:45 +1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. ---------- From: Ian Wood Is it my imagination or has the two year period of Bardic's introductory period coming to an end? As I remember we have four options: 1 chuck it out 2 welcome it as a full and worthy college 3 roll over its preliminary status as a college under trial. 4 change chunks and then do either 1, 2 or 3 above Either way, I would prefer it to happen as a result of positive choice, and not just because it slipped through on our amnesia/apathy. Could the kind chap who organised this sort of thing include it on an appropriate agenda. (and I trust you had kind thoughts when you read that) Let's chuck it out. It adds precious little to the game, besides a college that we don't need. Anyone wanting to play a 'bard' type character can do it with the Troubadour skill and either E&E or Illusion. Jim. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jan 27 04:14:14 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id EAA11463; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 04:14:14 +1300 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id EAA11456 ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 04:14:12 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p72-tnt1.akl.ihug.co.nz [209.232.125.72]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA30062 ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 17:01:29 +1300 Message-Id: <199901270401.RAA30062@smtp1.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: Bardic college - review period Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 16:59:06 +1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. ---------- > From: Andrew Withy (FAL AKL) > > > Ditto Ice. > As I remember we have four options: > > 1 chuck it out > 2 welcome it as a full and worthy college > 3 roll over its preliminary status as a college under trial. > 4 change chunks and then do either 1, 2 or 3 above As for Ice, I reckon we should keep it. It does add something to the game, some of the new spells do things that didn't exist before, and it covers a variety of effects that was really only covered by the Air college. I don't see a problem with the college, wholesale, and I see that it provides something new and different to players. Jim. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jan 27 04:19:35 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id EAA11521; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 04:19:35 +1300 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id EAA11514 ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 04:19:33 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p72-tnt1.akl.ihug.co.nz [209.232.125.72]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA30620 ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 17:06:52 +1300 Message-Id: <199901270406.RAA30620@smtp1.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: GMs - Oops I slipped Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 17:04:31 +1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. ---------- > From: Terry Spencer > > > > This is the same as a stupid item being given out by a GM - ask the > > player and/or GM concerned whether you can change it, or just break > > it, depending on your style. > > > I immensely dislike the attitude of arbitrarily breaking an item as > a GM if you dislike it. If there is a problem there are many approaches that > can be taken; from applying a fix or simply asking the player to leave it at > home. I believe there are exceptional circumstances that would advocate > breaking an item and this is an action of resort. Unfortunately, unenforceable, Terry. If a DM doesn't like an item, and resolves to trash the said item, there is no way anyone gets to know that that's what happened, unless they tell people. The only way you'd be able to tell is if all items were indestructible, except by act of the Gods in a God's Meeting... Ultimately, you have to trust the integrity of your DM. If you don't trust that DM, don't play in their game. Otherwise, whether or not you like the way the treat items from other DMs (or their own) is merely a matter of publicly expressed desire. And that's all. Jim. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jan 27 04:21:48 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id EAA11557; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 04:21:48 +1300 Received: from peace.com (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id EAA11550 ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 04:21:45 +1300 Received: via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/pcnz2.7) id RAA29178; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 17:09:05 +1300 Message-ID: <36AE93A2.D6ED8F76@peace.com> Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 17:18:42 +1300 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Bardic college - review period Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------6C430F6620C0FB74B50B09E6" From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------6C430F6620C0FB74B50B09E6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Andrew Withy (FAL AKL)" wrote: > Ditto Ice. Ditto Binder, no? Wasn't the revised Binder also granted probationary status? > --------- > Is it my imagination or has the two year period of Bardic's > introductory period coming to an end? > > As I remember we have four options: > > 1 chuck it out > 2 welcome it as a full and worthy college > 3 roll over its preliminary status as a college under trial. > 4 change chunks and then do either 1, 2 or 3 above > > -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- I feel that Ian is quite right in hoping that our choices on Bardic (and Ice) should be positive (and presumably informed) rather than driven by apathy. Sadly, I have heard little about either College, and I think that neither are really being used. There are how many Bards and Ice Mages? 1 or each? How many GMs have used them for NPCs. For myself, I have used Bard a bit, but not Ice. Have we really given either of them a rigorous test, or will we be accepting or rejecting them on very little data? Do we have enough information to make an informed decision? Given Ian's sensible options, I would suggest #3, with the suggestion that we actually test them. This could be achieved by getting a couple of volunteers (or more is possible) to create temporary characters of these Colleges. They would then take these PCs out on a bunny adventure and have a test-drive of the College at very low level. At the end of the adventure, rather than get normal ep, the characters would get a certain amount of increase in power, say equivalent to 3-4 adventures worth of ep and time. The GM/players running them would spend this ep, especially in the area of the College and then take the PCs out on a Low level adventure. I imagine that 4 adventures doing this with two or more characters would adequatley test very low, low, low-medium, and medium levels. This would be considerably more testing than any f the original Colleges were given. :) Cheers, Martin --------------6C430F6620C0FB74B50B09E6 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="martin.dickson.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Martin Dickson Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="martin.dickson.vcf" begin:vcard n:Dickson;Martin tel;fax:+64-9-373 0401 tel;work:+64-9-373 0400 x-mozilla-html:FALSE org:Peace Software International;Software Development version:2.1 email;internet:martin.dickson@peace.com title:Team Leader adr;quoted-printable:;;Peace Tower =0D=0ASt. Martins Lane;Auckland;;;New Zealand fn:Martin Dickson end:vcard --------------6C430F6620C0FB74B50B09E6-- -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jan 27 04:27:34 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id EAA11587; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 04:27:34 +1300 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id EAA11580 ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 04:27:33 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p72-tnt1.akl.ihug.co.nz [209.232.125.72]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA31430 ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 17:14:45 +1300 Message-Id: <199901270414.RAA31430@smtp1.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: Bardic college - review period Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 17:12:25 +1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. ---------- > From: Martin Dickson > Given Ian's sensible options, I would suggest #3, with the suggestion that > we actually test them. This could be achieved by getting a couple of > volunteers (or more is possible) to create temporary characters of these > Colleges. > Jaqui Smith has been play testing the Bardic college for about 2 1/2 to 3 years, now, Mike Young has tested Bardic for about 12 months, and has been play-testing Ice for about 2 years now. We should ask them for their feedback. That is why they took those characters. Jim. > They would then take these PCs out on a bunny adventure and have a > test-drive of the College at very low level. At the end of the adventure, > rather than get normal ep, the characters would get a certain amount of > increase in power, say equivalent to 3-4 adventures worth of ep and time. > The GM/players running them would spend this ep, especially in the area of > the College and then take the PCs out on a Low level adventure. > > I imagine that 4 adventures doing this with two or more characters would > adequatley test very low, low, low-medium, and medium levels. > > This would be considerably more testing than any f the original Colleges > were given. :) > > Cheers, > Martin > > -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jan 27 04:31:12 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id EAA11619; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 04:31:12 +1300 Received: from fclaklmr01.fcl.co.nz ([203.98.14.148] (may be forged)) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id EAA11611 ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 04:31:04 +1300 Received: from falaklnt000.falum.co.nz ([10.8.1.20]) by fclaklmr01.fcl.co.nz (Post.Office MTA v3.5.1 release 219 ID# 0-0U10L2S100) with SMTP id nz ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 17:17:55 +1300 Received: by falaklnt000.falum.co.nz with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5) id <01BE4A19.8DDCFAE0@falaklnt000.falum.co.nz>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 17:22:02 +1300 Message-ID: Subject: RE: Bardic, Binder & Ice college - review period Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 17:22:01 +1300 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Andrew Withy (FAL AKL)" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. No need to play-test these colleges as Martin suggests. Balance is only needed for PCs - NPCs are balanced by the GM, not by their spells or EP - they are as tough as desired. If there are no high PC Ice mages, no need to test high-level Ice. Any tests would be made as a PC gets that high. Trouble can be addressed as it arises, like the rest of the colleges. We are trying to develop an evolving system, not a correct rulebook for publishing. We also do have medium Binders, Ice mages & Bards in play. Have GMs had trouble with them? I don't recall much discussion at Gods meetings or via e-mail. Someone "sacrificing" their playing time to play a test character is a waste of energy when we have real characters. If they just think it would be neat to play a character that gets tough quickly and then stops, we have GMs who run that style of game. Andrew ---------- From: Martin Dickson [SMTP:martin.dickson@peace.com] > 3 roll over its preliminary status as a college under trial. Given Ian's sensible options, I would suggest #3, with the suggestion that we actually test them. This could be achieved by getting a couple of volunteers (or more is possible) to create temporary characters of these Colleges. They would then take these PCs out on a bunny adventure and have a test-drive of the College at very low level. At the end of the adventure, rather than get normal ep, the characters would get a certain amount of increase in power, say equivalent to 3-4 adventures worth of ep and time. The GM/players running them would spend this ep, especially in the area of the College and then take the PCs out on a Low level adventure. I imagine that 4 adventures doing this with two or more characters would adequatley test very low, low, low-medium, and medium levels. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jan 27 04:33:06 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id EAA11645; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 04:33:06 +1300 Received: from peace.com (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id EAA11638 ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 04:33:03 +1300 Received: via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/pcnz2.7) id RAA29770; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 17:20:17 +1300 Message-ID: <36AE9642.47D64FB1@peace.com> Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 17:29:54 +1300 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Bardic college - review period Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------E56145672918F402071A1F05" From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------E56145672918F402071A1F05 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Martin Dickson wrote: > This could be achieved by getting a couple of > volunteers (or more is possible) to create temporary characters of these > Colleges. > > They would then take these PCs out on a bunny adventure and have a > test-drive of the College at very low level. [snip] Ooops. Forgot to add. At the end of the testing phase the characters would be discarded/turned into NPCs/whatever. The volunteers can be suitably compensated for their time and effort by gaining a suitable EP reward (in much the same way as the GMing award). Cheers, Martin --------------E56145672918F402071A1F05 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="martin.dickson.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Martin Dickson Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="martin.dickson.vcf" begin:vcard n:Dickson;Martin tel;fax:+64-9-373 0401 tel;work:+64-9-373 0400 x-mozilla-html:FALSE org:Peace Software International;Software Development version:2.1 email;internet:martin.dickson@peace.com title:Team Leader adr;quoted-printable:;;Peace Tower =0D=0ASt. Martins Lane;Auckland;;;New Zealand fn:Martin Dickson end:vcard --------------E56145672918F402071A1F05-- -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jan 27 04:36:16 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id EAA11677; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 04:36:16 +1300 Received: from peace.com (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id EAA11670 ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 04:36:12 +1300 Received: via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/pcnz2.7) id RAA29920; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 17:23:29 +1300 Message-ID: <36AE9702.6C672229@peace.com> Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 17:33:06 +1300 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Bardic college - review period Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------066D9A130C237E7D44121FF0" From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------066D9A130C237E7D44121FF0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim Arona wrote: > Jaqui Smith has been play testing the Bardic college for about 2 1/2 to 3 > years, now, Mike Young has tested Bardic for about 12 months, and has been > play-testing Ice for about 2 years now. > > We should ask them for their feedback. That is why they took those > characters. OK. So long as someone has been testing, and we are not simply making the decision without data. Cheers, Martin --------------066D9A130C237E7D44121FF0 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="martin.dickson.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Martin Dickson Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="martin.dickson.vcf" begin:vcard n:Dickson;Martin tel;fax:+64-9-373 0401 tel;work:+64-9-373 0400 x-mozilla-html:FALSE org:Peace Software International;Software Development version:2.1 email;internet:martin.dickson@peace.com title:Team Leader adr;quoted-printable:;;Peace Tower =0D=0ASt. Martins Lane;Auckland;;;New Zealand fn:Martin Dickson end:vcard --------------066D9A130C237E7D44121FF0-- -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jan 27 04:51:39 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id EAA11710; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 04:51:39 +1300 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id EAA11703 ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 04:51:37 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p72-tnt1.akl.ihug.co.nz [209.232.125.72]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA01399 ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 17:38:56 +1300 Message-Id: <199901270438.RAA01399@smtp1.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: Bardic, Binder & Ice college - review period Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 17:36:36 +1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. ---------- > From: Andrew Withy (FAL AKL) > No need to play-test these colleges as Martin suggests. In general, I agree with this point. But I have reservations. I believe that Binder was flawed from the start, and should never have been allowed to be played, as it stands, currently. I know, it was much worse, before. > > Balance is only needed for PCs - NPCs are balanced by the GM, not by > their spells or EP - they are as tough as desired. If there are no > high PC Ice mages, no need to test high-level Ice. Any tests would be > made as a PC gets that high. Trouble can be addressed as it arises, > like the rest of the colleges. We are trying to develop an evolving > system, not a correct rulebook for publishing. > > We also do have medium Binders, Ice mages & Bards in play. Have GMs > had trouble with them? I don't recall much discussion at Gods meetings > or via e-mail. > Binder was at the time, a problem, and continues to be one, to this day. I vote we trash the college. I like the idea, I just don't like some of the magic. I think the Force Bubble spell, for example, should be thrown out completely. If successfully cast it has no means of defeat. It's a very binary spell, and, like Sleep, Mental Attack and other instant kill spells, it leads to player boredom. In the end, this college is about making magically powered devices. It's very close to being a kind of gag college (and it's not a weak college. You laugh at your peril, really). Whatever, I think it flies too closely to the borders of the credible, and I think it's culturally vulnerable. It provides an opportunity to bring out of genre material into the game, by giving it a magical rationalisation. > Someone "sacrificing" their playing time to play a test character is a > waste of energy when we have real characters. If they just think it > would be neat to play a character that gets tough quickly and then > stops, we have GMs who run that style of game. As I said, I agree in principle with what Andrew is saying. I don't see any point in running characters outside of the rest of the game. If for no other reason, than you may not get the kind of number-crunching you only see when you let a player loose on a character and give them a bundle of ep... Jim. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jan 27 19:37:09 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id TAA12158; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 19:37:09 +1300 Received: from peace.com (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id TAA12151 ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 19:37:06 +1300 Received: via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/pcnz2.7) id IAA15696; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 08:24:03 +1300 Message-ID: <36AF6A14.AEB6EF08@peace.com> Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 08:33:40 +1300 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Bardic, Binder & Ice college - review period Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------BC274EAEEAF11DFBD57EA60E" From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------BC274EAEEAF11DFBD57EA60E Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim Arona wrote: > Binder was at the time, a problem, and continues to be one, to this day. [snip] > Whatever, I think it flies too closely to the borders of the credible, and > I think it's culturally vulnerable. It provides an opportunity to bring out > of genre material into the game, by giving it a magical rationalisation. Hi Jim, Certainly some of the Binder's abilities may be used for gags and pratfalls, but if that is the test of a College's credibility, then where does that leave Illusion? :) I would also suggest that there is little agreement on exactly what genre sub-section the DQ campaign fills... historical fantasy? heroic fantasy? humourous fantasy? farce? I believe that elements of all these exist within the campaign. Some GMs say they desire "gritty reality" with plagues and lack of sanitation and bodies floating in the harbour. Some think that one decent swordsman fighting off three others is the "heroic" end of fantasy (a la Gemmel, etc), while others tend more towards the 1:100 end. Humourous elements have been present in most games I have played in. Some players think that gag names for PCs are appropriate, others do not... and so on. As a GM I can run my games with the tone I prefer and know that players who prefer other tones or flavours are catered for; as a player I have choices -- my PC can stand on a pile of bodies, covered in blood; intrigue and plot; explore and discover; or (if I so desire) descend into farce and low humour. None of this excuses mechanical flaws in Binder (or any other skill or college), but I would be reluctant to write something off purely because it does not fit neatly into one or other fantasy sub-genre. I think that there is a significant breadth of the "genre" within the campaign, and that breadth and variability of tone is part of the campaign's strength and enduring appeal. Kind Regards, Martin --------------BC274EAEEAF11DFBD57EA60E Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="martin.dickson.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Martin Dickson Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="martin.dickson.vcf" begin:vcard n:Dickson;Martin tel;fax:+64-9-373 0401 tel;work:+64-9-373 0400 x-mozilla-html:FALSE org:Peace Software International;Software Development version:2.1 email;internet:martin.dickson@peace.com title:Team Leader adr;quoted-printable:;;Peace Tower =0D=0ASt. Martins Lane;Auckland;;;New Zealand fn:Martin Dickson end:vcard --------------BC274EAEEAF11DFBD57EA60E-- -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jan 27 21:10:11 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id VAA12246; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 21:10:11 +1300 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id VAA12239 ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 21:10:09 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p54-max3.akl.ihug.co.nz [207.213.218.182]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA07885 ; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 09:57:00 +1300 Message-Id: <199901272057.JAA07885@smtp2.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: Bardic, Binder & Ice college - review period Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 09:54:35 +1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. ---------- > From: Martin Dickson > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Hi Jim, > > Certainly some of the Binder's abilities may be used for gags and pratfalls, > but if that is the test of a College's credibility, then where does that leave > Illusion? :) I have reservations about Illusion, as well...:) > > I would also suggest that there is little agreement on exactly what genre > sub-section the DQ campaign fills... historical fantasy? heroic fantasy? > humourous fantasy? farce? > > I believe that elements of all these exist within the campaign. > Agreed, but not to the point, I think. I believe that humour is not only desirable in a game, it is necessary. What isn't necessary is the notion of a resource, be it a college or a skill that is a platform for jokes. That isn't the same thing as humour. That is indulgence, I believe. > Some GMs say they desire "gritty reality" with plagues and lack of sanitation > and bodies floating in the harbour. Some think that one decent swordsman > fighting off three others is the "heroic" end of fantasy (a la Gemmel, etc), > while others tend more towards the 1:100 end. Humourous elements have been > present in most games I have played in. Some players think that gag names for > PCs are appropriate, others do not... and so on. > Gag names are hardly ever appropriate. One often finds them in tournament games, where the length of the campaign lends itself to short term gags of this nature. Over a real game, it just grates. > As a GM I can run my games with the tone I prefer and know that players who > prefer other tones or flavours are catered for; as a player I have choices -- > my PC can stand on a pile of bodies, covered in blood; intrigue and plot; > explore and discover; or (if I so desire) descend into farce and low humour. > Agreed. It is good that players have opportunities to play the games they want. That isn't the same as setting up a situation that lends itself to abuse. > None of this excuses mechanical flaws in Binder (or any other skill or > college), but I would be reluctant to write something off purely because it > does not fit neatly into one or other fantasy sub-genre. > I would have thought that that was the best reason to write something off...because it doesn't fit into the world, sensibly. You may not agree with me about this particular college. Again, I think that is a different kind of argument. > I think that there is a significant breadth of the "genre" within the campaign, > and that breadth and variability of tone is part of the campaign's strength and > enduring appeal. > I think that the game would still maintain its variability if the college were done away with. Mind you, someone may well come up with a version of Binding that doesn't reduce the value of other players, and defines the spells so that the DM knows what the limits are. In an aside, and this isn't a compelling argument, I haven't heard anyone who didn't play a Binder say that they are keen on the college. I have heard a lot of players and DMs say they'd like to see the wretched thing dead, and the ashes strewn over 3 seas. Jim -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jan 27 21:58:26 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id VAA12314; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 21:58:26 +1300 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id VAA12307 ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 21:58:24 +1300 Received: from [207.213.218.174] (p46-max3.akl.ihug.co.nz [207.213.218.174]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA01728 ; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 10:45:09 +1300 Message-Id: <199901272145.KAA01728@smtp1.ihug.co.nz> X-Sender: flamis@pop.ihug.co.nz (Unverified) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 10:47:39 +1300 Subject: Bardic college From: flamis@pop.ihug.co.nz (Jacqui Smith) To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >Jaqui Smith has been play testing the Bardic college for about 2 1/2 to 3 >years, now, Mike Young has tested Bardic for about 12 months, and has been >play-testing Ice for about 2 years now. > >We should ask them for their feedback. That is why they took those >characters. My Bard character is now at the low end of medium and has been played on medium adventures. If the xp rewards I have been getting with her are a guide, Bardic is certainly a college which allows a satisfactory level of participation by a player character. The following magics have proved effective in play: Enhanced hearing Project Voice Clairaudience Enchant Instrument (only used once but it allowed us to work out how to play this ancient instrument we found which was fun). Ethereal Orchestra Quietness Shatter Silent Sounds (was more useful when it affected concentration checks) Soothe the Savage Beast Speaking Beasts (more fun to play than the various "speak to" spells since the whole party gets to participate) Implanting Sounds (very popular with party leaders when the party needs to rest) Recitation (very fun - gave Parky in particular plenty of scope as GM) Comprehending Tongues (very handy for NPCs acting as party guides) Dance of Swords (a distinctly different defence spell) Echosense Only Great Shout appeared majorly broken, its effects are too binary, and somehow at once too powerful and too weak. I'd suggest something more like lightning bolt in its effects. The remaining magics either had not been learned by my character, or opportunity to use them did not arise. Bardic isn't a tough college by any means, but it does fill a niche. I've seen Parky use Bardic very effectively as an NPC College, especially for diplomats and the like. I'd like to propose the following replacement for "Great Shout": Shout of Thunder Range: 10 feet + 10/rank Duration: Immediate. Experience multiple: 250 Base Chance: 25% Resist: active & passive Target: entity Storage: investment, ward, magical trap. The Adept projects a thunderous shout of rage at the target. If the target fails to resist it suffers D-5 (+ 1/Rank) damage and is automatically stunned. The target will also be deafened for D-5 (+ 1/2 Ranks) minutes and will have a very nasty headache which will make concentration one level more difficult until it wears off or is cured by a healer. There is a chance equal to 5% + 1/rank that this deafness will be permanent until cured by the arts of a Healer of Rank 4 or greater, or by Ritual of Cure Deafness and Muteness. Jacqui -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jan 27 21:58:55 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id VAA12337; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 21:58:55 +1300 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id VAA12330 ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 21:58:53 +1300 Received: from [207.213.218.174] (p46-max3.akl.ihug.co.nz [207.213.218.174]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA01796 ; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 10:45:47 +1300 Message-Id: <199901272145.KAA01796@smtp1.ihug.co.nz> X-Sender: flamis@pop.ihug.co.nz (Unverified) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 10:48:17 +1300 Subject: Re: DQ- SK Spell prices From: flamis@pop.ihug.co.nz (Jacqui Smith) To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >I would like to see all the spells be available but the costs reflect the >rampant inflation in cash that GM's are handing out. What rampant inflation? My lower level character is still constantly strapped for cash, in spite of going on medium adventures. The two medium-high characters are better off - but only after one brought back 50K+ from a medium-high five or six years ago, and the other came back with a similar amount from a seriously god-bothering expedition (the god in question is still seriously pissed at her). But they scarcely get that much on a regular basis. Rewards vary, and they are occasionally a bit high, but that makes up for the occasional venture where characters actually lose money. The instance you refer to with the dragonskin armour is anomalous, and I believe the problem is rooted in the ridiculous values for silvered and true-silvered armour which are listed in the book and no-one actually uses. Why should they? GMs value mage-armour much more reasonably. We're talking 9-point -1 AG 0% stealth for green dragonskin armour. How much is that really worth in terms of the other armours which are out there? And even if the armour is worth 50,000 per suit, a good percentage of that is not in the material but the armourer's charges. How did these low levels afford to have the stuff made up? Where did they find that rare armourer who can work with dragonskin? >If a spell is created and written into a collage then I believe it should be >available I do appreciate the concept of having spells you can >quest for but would prefer to see them all available. I don't think that it's broken. I do think the list is a little odd in places. Jacqui -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jan 27 22:16:04 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id WAA12386; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 22:16:04 +1300 Received: from peace.com (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id WAA12379 ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 22:16:02 +1300 Received: via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/pcnz2.7) id LAA26845; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 11:02:54 +1300 Message-ID: <36AF8F52.1075F589@peace.com> Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 11:12:35 +1300 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Bardic college Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------ECC8CD124B334C201579A60D" From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------ECC8CD124B334C201579A60D Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jacqui Smith wrote: > Bardic isn't a tough college by any > means, but it does fill a niche. I've seen Parky use Bardic very > effectively as an NPC College, especially for diplomats and the like. Hi Jacqui, I have also used NPC Bards for diplomat/spies and have been quite happy with the college. I agree that it fill a niche, and that with the sound and language based components, it is a niche that cannot be completely filled by E&E (or Illusion) and Troubadour. Cheers, Martin --------------ECC8CD124B334C201579A60D Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="martin.dickson.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Martin Dickson Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="martin.dickson.vcf" begin:vcard n:Dickson;Martin tel;fax:+64-9-373 0401 tel;work:+64-9-373 0400 x-mozilla-html:FALSE org:Peace Software International;Software Development version:2.1 email;internet:martin.dickson@peace.com title:Team Leader adr;quoted-printable:;;Peace Tower =0D=0ASt. Martins Lane;Auckland;;;New Zealand fn:Martin Dickson end:vcard --------------ECC8CD124B334C201579A60D-- -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jan 27 22:55:33 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id WAA12478; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 22:55:33 +1300 Received: from peace.com (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id WAA12471 ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 22:55:20 +1300 Received: via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/pcnz2.7) id LAA29538; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 11:42:08 +1300 Message-ID: <36AF9885.B8B8AEB7@peace.com> Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 11:51:49 +1300 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Bardic, Binder & Ice college - review period Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------182FE5D0677971B5AA61E956" From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------182FE5D0677971B5AA61E956 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim Arona wrote: > > I believe that elements of all these exist within the campaign. > > > Agreed, but not to the point, I think. I believe that humour is not only > desirable in a game, it is necessary. What isn't necessary is the notion of > a resource, be it a college or a skill that is a platform for jokes. OK, I tend to agree. Witty conversation can be funny -- "whoopee cushions" are not. :) > Gag names are hardly ever appropriate. One often finds them in tournament > games, where the length of the campaign lends itself to short term gags of > this nature. Over a real game, it just grates. Well, yes. Of course it is partly our fault (the GMs in general, that is) since new players can only choose names based on the resources available. In DQ they will have to turn to other players... or decide themselves what is appropriate for the campaign, because there are no guidelines.... eg. What is a typical Alusian elven name? > > None of this excuses mechanical flaws in Binder (or any other skill or > > college), but I would be reluctant to write something off purely because > it > > does not fit neatly into one or other fantasy sub-genre. > > > I would have thought that that was the best reason to write something > off...because it doesn't fit into the world, sensibly. You may not agree > with me about this particular college. Again, I think that is a different > kind of argument. Sorry... me being ambiguous. What I meant was, "I would be reluctant to write something off purely because it fits into one fantasy sub-genre, rather than another". That is to say dark and grimy vs. heroic; barbarians vs. duellists, etc. Certainly if it doesn't fit the world, chuck it. I just feel that the world is so broad, with so much contradiction, that is is hard to say what does not fit. As it happens, I don't feel that Binder is specifically a "gag" college. It certainly was not intended in that way originally. I originally intended it as a playable version of Shaping... "Lesser Shaping" if you like. I guess people's opinions will also stem from their encounters with PCs/NPCs of that college. No matter how often someone tries to tell me that Fire Mages really have a healthy respect for their element and aren't really psychos, my impressions will always be coloured by my early association with Bleyze. :) > I think that the game would still maintain its variability if the college > were done away with. Hmmm... logically false. Removing any game element will necessarily reduce variability.... but if you mean that no important or desirable variability will be lost, then yes, I guess, quite possibly true -- depending on ones opinion of the College. > Mind you, someone may well come up with a version of > Binding that doesn't reduce the value of other players, and defines the > spells so that the DM knows what the limits are. Perhaps I have a distorted view of Binder.... but I would never have thought of it as being a very _useful_ PC college. Certainly if one of my characters was organising a party, Binders and Illusionist would be at the bottom end of my list of desirable mages to take. If the spells are flawed in their writing that can be fixed. If however, the concept is flawed.... well then, yes, perhaps dropping it is the best thing. This has happened before, when Lesser Summoning was dropped. The College concept proved flawed, rather than just some of the spells, and the "Food Mages" passed into history. > In an aside, and this isn't a compelling argument, I haven't heard anyone > who didn't play a Binder say that they are keen on the college. I have > heard a lot of players and DMs say they'd like to see the wretched thing > dead, and the ashes strewn over 3 seas. As a different aside, there seems to be more conservatism in DQ about Colleges that about anything else. The suggestion of a new College always results in comments about "dead bodies" and the like. :) However... I don't know about Binder. Certainly I still have a soft spot for it.... and have used it as a GM on a number of occasions, but if there are problems, well then, I am not blind to them or fervent in my desire to suppress all critisism. However, I would like to see some logical discussion about it -- its flaws and merits, vulnerabilites, issues, possibilites, etc -- rather than the emotive howling we usually seem to get when discussing colleges, before deciding whether or not to cast it into the outer darkness. You obviously have a strong opinion on the (un)desirability of Binder. Could you perhaps outline some the specific problems areas that you know of? This way we can get some discussion going on them. Kind Regards, Martin --------------182FE5D0677971B5AA61E956 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="martin.dickson.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Martin Dickson Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="martin.dickson.vcf" begin:vcard n:Dickson;Martin tel;fax:+64-9-373 0401 tel;work:+64-9-373 0400 x-mozilla-html:FALSE org:Peace Software International;Software Development version:2.1 email;internet:martin.dickson@peace.com title:Team Leader adr;quoted-printable:;;Peace Tower =0D=0ASt. Martins Lane;Auckland;;;New Zealand fn:Martin Dickson end:vcard --------------182FE5D0677971B5AA61E956-- -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jan 27 23:52:31 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id XAA12539; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 23:52:31 +1300 Received: from fep2-orange.clear.net.nz (fep2-orange.clear.net.nz [203.97.32.2]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id XAA12532 ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 23:52:29 +1300 Received: from qed_akl_nt_1.qed.co.nz ([203.97.23.141]) by fep2-orange.clear.net.nz (1.5/1.9) with ESMTP id MAA23727; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 12:38:52 +1300 (NZDT) Received: by qed_akl_nt_1.qed.co.nz with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) id ; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 12:37:44 +1300 Message-ID: <15A7D8BC5E3ED2119E2E0000F82150FC0B8543@qed_akl_nt_1.qed.co.nz> Subject: RE: Bardic, Binder & Ice college - review period Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 12:37:41 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain From: Stephen Martin To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. None of these three colleges have many characters, one question is why? a) Because they're in probation and people either don't know what that means or they don't want to risk having their college "mucked about". If so, then we should remove the probation status one way of the other. b) Because very few people like them. c) B/c they're not "main-stream" colleges. d) B/c they've only been around for a couple of years and not many people have started new characters in that time. e) Some other reason... Personally I wouldn't play a Bard (not my style), would play an Ice mage, and do play a Binder. The reason I play a Binder is because I like the challenge of a college where it's not immediatly obvious what the best way to apply your magic is. It's probably a similar reason to why people played the old Illusion college and people who ranked Mol Rec, because it gives you more room to wield magic imaginatively. As for whether they should be kept or not, I vote for keeping them all and removing the probationary status. As far as I'm aware none of them are causing problems in the campaign or rather no more than any other college. I personally don't like Bardic and think that a combination of skills and Illusion, E&E or some other college can be used to portray any of the classic Bard type characters. But some people do play it and enjoy it so bully for them. None of these colleges are perfect, they all have their problems, but so do most (if not all) of the other colleges. As Andrew said, this is an evolving game. We'll find problems over time and if they're important enough we'll fix them. As a GM I have no objections to any of these colleges which is significant enough to stop them "going live". I would like a descision soon, so that I know whether it's worth discussing and/or working on patches for these colleges before the next rulebook is released. As a player of a Binder, I'm sick of the arguements over the college and I don't care anymore. I'll either contuinuing playing the character as a Binder, change it's college, or stop playing it. Probably one of the first two. Cheers, Stephen. > -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jan 27 23:53:12 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id XAA12561; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 23:53:12 +1300 Received: from mail.iconz.co.nz (mail.iconz.co.nz [210.48.22.36]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id XAA12554 ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 23:53:11 +1300 Received: from mandos (e0.firewall.ak.iconz.net.nz [202.14.100.208]) by mail.iconz.co.nz (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id MAA293430917480403 ; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 12:40:03 +1300 (NZDT) Message-ID: <002501be4a4e$2f72a6a0$0d64a8c0@mandos.iconz> Subject: Re: Bardic college - review period Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 12:38:40 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 From: "Mandos Mitchinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >Have we really given either of them a rigorous test, or will we be accepting >or rejecting them on very little data? After GM'ing binders a reasonable amount and having used them as bad guy's ALOT. I personally feel that the original binder document makes an excellent NPC collage but neither write up are a good PC collage. In my games I have used 5 NPC binders of varying levels and GM'ed 1 player for 6 months. I found that binders as a college tend to encourage a solo style of existance, they are more a seclusional college with little time or reason to adventure which seems to be against what we are trying to encourage as a guild. However the collage does provide valuable spells and other items which do enrich the game with their prescence. Hence my recommendation. Mandos /s -- See message headers to unsubscribe from --