From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Jan 28 00:31:40 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id AAA12637; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 00:31:40 +1300 Received: from peace.com (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id AAA12630 ; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 00:31:38 +1300 Received: via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/pcnz2.7) id NAA05207; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 13:18:23 +1300 Message-ID: <36AFAF14.7D06A124@peace.com> Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 13:28:04 +1300 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Bardic, Binder & Ice college - review period Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------7E18C7E991C5E204620FC731" From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------7E18C7E991C5E204620FC731 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Stephen Martin wrote: > None of these three colleges have many characters, one question is why? > [snip] > b) Because very few people like them. Very few people like Mind Mages either.... ohhh... that's not what you meant. :) > Personally I wouldn't play a Bard (not my style), would play an Ice > mage, and do play a Binder. I tend to agree that it is a style thing. I don't have any great desire to play a Binder, or an Ice mage, but have been seriously considering starting a Bard -- I was thinking on an Orcish one. :) > As far as I'm aware none of them are causing problems in the campaign or > rather no more than any other college. [snip] > None of these colleges are perfect, they all have their problems, but so > do most (if not all) of the other colleges. [snip] > As Andrew said, this is an evolving game. We'll find problems over time > and if they're important enough we'll fix them. Agreed. I thought that perhaps we had heard nothing of these three colleges over the past two years because no one was using them -- and whilst there are only a few PC mages of these colleges, it seems that GMs have been using all 3 colleges for NPCs. Over the two years very, very few comments have come out of this. The most memorable was Jim's comments on some of the Bardic stuff, most specifically his dislike of the "Great Shout" spell because of its duration stunning -- a position with which I agree -- and a solution to which Jacqui proposed today. Excellent, a spell needs tweaking, let's do it, and as you say remove the probationary status and get on with things. > As a GM I have no objections to any of these colleges which is > significant enough to stop them "going live". In the best Internet tradition: me too. :) I have less problems with any of these three than with the new revised Fire....and I presume (having heard nothing to the contrary) that it is intended that that revision go directly into play with probation. > As a player of a Binder, I'm sick of the arguements over the college and > I don't care anymore. Binder in particular has now been around for quite a number of years, and has yet, despite the doom-sayers, to cause the demise of the campaign. :) I imagine that Ice and Bard will have no more significant effect on its health. Cheers, Martin --------------7E18C7E991C5E204620FC731 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="martin.dickson.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Martin Dickson Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="martin.dickson.vcf" begin:vcard n:Dickson;Martin tel;fax:+64-9-373 0401 tel;work:+64-9-373 0400 x-mozilla-html:FALSE org:Peace Software International;Software Development version:2.1 email;internet:martin.dickson@peace.com title:Team Leader adr;quoted-printable:;;Peace Tower =0D=0ASt. Martins Lane;Auckland;;;New Zealand fn:Martin Dickson end:vcard --------------7E18C7E991C5E204620FC731-- -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Jan 28 00:34:00 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id AAA12659; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 00:34:00 +1300 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id AAA12652 ; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 00:33:58 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p40-max9.akl.ihug.co.nz [209.78.49.40]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA18303 ; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 13:20:45 +1300 Message-Id: <199901280020.NAA18303@smtp1.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: Bardic, Binder & Ice college - review period Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 13:18:21 +1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Martin wrote: > You obviously have a strong opinion on the (un)desirability of Binder. Could > you perhaps outline some the specific problems areas that you know of? This > way we can get some discussion going on them. > Sure. I find it hard to know what the limits there are for the General Knowledge spell, Shaping Elements. I've seen it used to tunnel through stone, build rails, and make weapons out of flames. The Bubble of Force spell is one of the most powerful entrapment spells around, in that, once inside, it's almost impossible for someone to get out. On the other hand, as a protection spell, it's profoundly useful in surviving almost any natural environment, and, as far as I can tell, any kind of bombardment. Rag & String golems can learn Skills that the caster doesn't, which reduces the 'specialness' of other PCs. I'm aware that this has been changed, but haven't got my rulebook with me, so I'm not sure what the current situation is. I believe they can still learn professional Skills, though. The Unbinding spell is a multi target Whitefire. I.e. it is completely binary. You are either alive and fine, or you're an oozing pile of goo. And irressurrectable goo, at that. My problem with spells like this (and Sleep, and Mental Attack, et al.) is that they don't generate any sense of concern on the part of the player, unless the player knows specifically that that spell is being cast at them. If you don't know what you're resisting, you're just rolling dice. I'd have no problem with it, if it were an half damage spell. In such a case, I'd say that it doesn't put holes in living targets, it just disorganises them a little (or a lot, depending on Rank, I suppose). And where possible, I think it's generally best for a spell to have some kind of identifying special effect. This one doesn't have one, except in the big holes it makes on its victims. I don't mind the Detecting Enchantment talent, in principle, but I think it would be better if the player either did or didn't know the identity of the magic that they have sensed. I don't like the fact that they can re-roll their talent, not because I care whether or not know what the magic is. It's just rolling dice for nothing, as far as I can see. If some sort of convention is necessary, let us just say that if the Binder spends 5 minutes examining a source of magic, then they know the name and college of the spell, or some such. Hell, I wouldn't mind if that was the information that they got from a successful Success check. Anything to reduce meaningless die-rolling. I would like to see the Animation change so that Binders can no longer raise Zombies or Skeletons. I see no reason why they should be able to do this, except because they animate things that have no business moving around. I think this is clearly a case for an arbitrations dispute negotiation. Necromancers are the only ones who should be fiddling around with things that crawl out of graves. Let Binders animate the odd vicious chair. I keep looking at the spell that increases the Aura value of a target, and I keep asking myself, what is this spell intended to do? What can you do with this spell? I really don't like the Binder's version of Investment. Given my druthers, I'd like them to have the same kind of Investment Ritual as everyone else, whatever that ritual might be. I have others grizzles, but without my handbook, it's a little hard to flick through and point to peeves, but these are some of the things I dislike about it. Things I like are: Transparency. It's a great spell, with lots of uses, and missing from the game. Wall-walking. Same as above, plus it's a very balanced spell, for all it's power. The matter transformation spell. I love this spell. It's great for turning the PC's tanky armour to paper. Or sand. This spell can strip a player of most of their well- or evil-earned loot into an interesting pile of dust around their ankles at very inconvenient times. Preservation. Another spell that isn't represented in DQ, although I'm a little at a loss as to why it's here. Still and all, I'd rather it was somewhere than nowhere. The spell that makes rigid things as hard as steel, can't remember the name. Great for pissing off the party leader, by casting it on their saddle. The spell where they can turn off Animated objects...Although I think that Necromancers should be able to turn off other people Animated Undead, not Binders. Anyway, these are few of my favourite things. And some other things. Jim. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Jan 28 00:44:09 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id AAA12698; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 00:44:09 +1300 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id AAA12691 ; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 00:44:08 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p40-max9.akl.ihug.co.nz [209.78.49.40]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA19437 ; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 13:30:59 +1300 Message-Id: <199901280030.NAA19437@smtp1.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: Bardic, Binder & Ice college - review period Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 13:28:34 +1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. ---------- > From: Martin Dickson > > I tend to agree that it is a style thing. I don't have any great desire to > play a Binder, or an Ice mage, but have been seriously considering starting > a Bard -- I was thinking on an Orcish one. :) They'll let anyone in, these days...:) > > > As far as I'm aware none of them are causing problems in the campaign or > > rather no more than any other college. I think that some of the Binder spells can cause problems, as I've outlined elsewhere...But, read on... > > [snip] > > > None of these colleges are perfect, they all have their problems, but so > > do most (if not all) of the other colleges. > Very true. > [snip] > > > As Andrew said, this is an evolving game. We'll find problems over time > > and if they're important enough we'll fix them. > > As a GM I have no objections to any of these colleges which is > > significant enough to stop them "going live". > > In the best Internet tradition: me too. :) And, me too. I think that the problems with the colleges may be addressed as they arise. Simply naysaying will mean that the colleges keep coming back in one form or another. This is not to say that I think that the colleges will survive. I actually don't know. I do think that it is completely bootless to attempt to create a fully working college, unilaterally. > > I have less problems with any of these three than with the new revised > Fire....and I presume (having heard nothing to the contrary) that it is > intended that that revision go directly into play with probation. > > > As a player of a Binder, I'm sick of the arguements over the college and > > I don't care anymore. > > Binder in particular has now been around for quite a number of years, and > has yet, despite the doom-sayers, to cause the demise of the campaign. :) However, a lot of the spells in the college haven't been allowed to fall into player's hands. I suggest that this be allowed on a case by case basis. Then we'll be able to see what effect it has. Jim. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Jan 28 01:05:00 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id BAA12749; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 01:05:00 +1300 Received: from peace.com (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id BAA12742 ; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 01:04:57 +1300 Received: via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/pcnz2.7) id NAA07112; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 13:51:44 +1300 Message-ID: <36AFB6E5.18A96C2A@peace.com> Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 14:01:25 +1300 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Bardic, Binder & Ice college - review period Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------C18AA441B19028A65D1F3452" From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------C18AA441B19028A65D1F3452 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Jim, I'm sure Stephen can probably give better information on the current state of affairs, but I thought I'd respond to some of these with my own views. Jim Arona wrote: > I find it hard to know what the limits there are for the General Knowledge > spell, Shaping Elements. I've seen it used to tunnel through stone, build > rails, and make weapons out of flames. The original intent was a sort of sculpting spell using the elements so that rather than ice sculptures one could make fire statues, etc. Maybe it is poorly defined though. One could certainly make a weapon out of flames -- though I imagine in use it would be about as good as a torch. > The Bubble of Force spell is one of the most powerful entrapment spells > around, in that, once inside, it's almost impossible for someone to get > out. On the other hand, as a protection spell, it's profoundly useful in > surviving almost any natural environment, and, as far as I can tell, any > kind of bombardment. It was intended as an excellent protection spell. Of course once you are inside, I seem to recall that it is very hard to get yourself out until the duration is up. Perhaps it is too binary... perhaps it could provide a certain degree of protection/ablative armour or the like. I had in mind (somewhat) those prismatic-y things from AD&D... the wall and sphere. From a GM perspective it does give the possibilty of grabbing PCs without killing them. > Rag & String golems can learn Skills that the caster doesn't, which reduces > the 'specialness' of other PCs. I'm aware that this has been changed, but > haven't got my rulebook with me, so I'm not sure what the current situation > is. I believe they can still learn professional Skills, though. Ummm... . I'm prety sure that in the current version these littel guys are only as smart as monkeys so I'd be pretty amazed if the could learn skills... of course Orcs seem to manage it, so... :) > The Unbinding spell is a multi target Whitefire. I.e. it is completely > binary. You are either alive and fine, or you're an oozing pile of goo. I thought this one was changed too. Doesn't it not only affect non-living targets? I seem to recall that part of the re-write removed any directly offensive anti-personal magic from the college. > I don't mind the Detecting Enchantment talent, in principle, but I think it > would be better if the player either did or didn't know the identity of the > magic that they have sensed. I don't like the fact that they can re-roll > their talent, not because I care whether or not know what the magic is. > It's just rolling dice for nothing, as far as I can see. If some sort of > convention is necessary, let us just say that if the Binder spends 5 > minutes examining a source of magic, then they know the name and college of > the spell, or some such. Hell, I wouldn't mind if that was the information > that they got from a successful Success check. Anything to reduce > meaningless die-rolling. Fair enough. > I would like to see the Animation change so that Binders can no longer > raise Zombies or Skeletons. I see no reason why they should be able to do > this, except because they animate things that have no business moving > around. I think this is clearly a case for an arbitrations dispute > negotiation. Necromancers are the only ones who should be fiddling around > with things that crawl out of graves. Let Binders animate the odd vicious > chair. And who wants a demarkation dispute with the Necromancers? :) I think this probably stemmed from an idea that all animations are equal. I think that could stand revision. There does appear to be an intrinsic difference between golems and say, Vampires. Skeletons and Zombies are perhaps a bit more of a fringe case, but I think that it could be argued either way. > I keep looking at the spell that increases the Aura value of a target, and > I keep asking myself, what is this spell intended to do? What can you do > with this spell? Errr... what does one use the Earth spell of Speak to Plants for? :) Actually, one use of this spell is to make Golems less obvious.... though I guess Auras aren't very obvious really. It does have the possibility of defeating wards -- that is if they detect by a DA like method. > I really don't like the Binder's version of Investment. Given my druthers, > I'd like them to have the same kind of Investment Ritual as everyone else, > whatever that ritual might be. This was meant to be part of their "Lesser Binding" portfolio, in the same way that Witches are better at curses and Namers are better at Counterspells. > Things I like are: > Wall-walking. Same as above, plus it's a very balanced spell, for all it's > power. Just got to make sure you don't stay in too long.... :) > Preservation. Another spell that isn't represented in DQ, although I'm a > little at a loss as to why it's here. Still and all, I'd rather it was > somewhere than nowhere. The idea was that you were binding up the things nature and preventing it from being corrupted/destroyed, etc. Its the spell you'd expect Elves to put on everything they could afford... otherwise its just here today and gone next millenium. My favorite is Linking lifeforces, the ritual that lets you bind a person to a rose (or whatever) so that the flower reflects their health. I can't remember what fairy tale it was that I read that in, but I always liked the idea. Anyway, none of these problems look insurmountable, and I think that improving the college is better than removing it altogether. Kind Regards, Martin --------------C18AA441B19028A65D1F3452 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="martin.dickson.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Martin Dickson Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="martin.dickson.vcf" begin:vcard n:Dickson;Martin tel;fax:+64-9-373 0401 tel;work:+64-9-373 0400 x-mozilla-html:FALSE org:Peace Software International;Software Development version:2.1 email;internet:martin.dickson@peace.com title:Team Leader adr;quoted-printable:;;Peace Tower =0D=0ASt. Martins Lane;Auckland;;;New Zealand fn:Martin Dickson end:vcard --------------C18AA441B19028A65D1F3452-- -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Jan 28 01:10:28 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id BAA12780; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 01:10:28 +1300 Received: from peace.com (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id BAA12773 ; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 01:10:26 +1300 Received: via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/pcnz2.7) id NAA07464; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 13:57:16 +1300 Message-ID: <36AFB832.8CFE1B12@peace.com> Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 14:06:58 +1300 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Bardic, Binder & Ice college - review period Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------1779E50D99507C02ED2F3114" From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------1779E50D99507C02ED2F3114 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim Arona wrote: > > Binder in particular has now been around for quite a number of years, and > > has yet, despite the doom-sayers, to cause the demise of the campaign. > :) > > However, a lot of the spells in the college haven't been allowed to fall > into player's hands. I suggest that this be allowed on a case by case > basis. Then we'll be able to see what effect it has. Destruction testing the universe -- cool. :) Then we can all blame armageddon on the Binders. :) :)