From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Feb 12 00:06:48 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id AAA03473; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 00:06:48 +1300 Received: from kcbbs.gen.nz (kcbbs.gen.nz [202.14.102.1]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id AAA03465 ; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 00:06:46 +1300 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by kcbbs.gen.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA11450 ; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 12:41:21 +1300 (NZDT) Message-ID: <36C36AE8.63A6BF93@games.co.nz> Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 12:42:32 +1300 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: DQ Rulebook. Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Jono Bean To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. rmansfield@aj.co.nz wrote: > At the last gods meeting it was confirmed that we DO NOT want to publish > our rules on the web for anyone to access; as we are in violation of many > and varied copyright laws. I was at the last gods meeting and don't recall this even being on the agenda,or talked about. The only two items was the Fire and Fighting stuff. At a gods meeting late last year (sorry don't know what one) the gods said it was O.K. to put up a copy in PDF format or the Rules out for players and GMs alike to use. At that meeting I talked about the prose and cons or copyright and what the effects of putting the rulebook on the web would be. > The next version of the rule book will not be before June 99, and may be > later. So are the New skills that Martin did are in play as real rulesor are they in "play test" and in general use waiting to go in the new rule book when it comes out? Is it either of the above two things? Or am I going mad and they are in the rulebook and I'm just loosing track of whats going on? Jono Circle Games - PBM Telephone (649) 828-2959 Facsimile (649) 828-2759 Email jono@games.co.nz Website http://www.games.co.nz Circle Games PO Box 105-320 Auckand 1030 New Zealand "Mac vs. PCs" is the same as saying "Art vs. Commerce". -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Feb 12 02:37:24 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id CAA03780; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 02:37:24 +1300 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id CAA03771 ; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 02:37:23 +1300 Received: from phaeton.ihug.co.nz (p17-max27.akl.ihug.co.nz [209.76.149.145]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA11310 ; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 15:15:39 +1300 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990212151442.007b5a90@pop.ihug.co.nz> X-Sender: phaeton@pop.ihug.co.nz X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 15:14:42 +1300 Subject: Re: DQ Rulebook. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: Keith Smith To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >> At the last gods meeting it was confirmed that we DO NOT want to publish >> our rules on the web for anyone to access; as we are in violation of many >> and varied copyright laws. >I was at the last gods meeting and don't recall this even being on the >agenda,or talked about. The only two items was the Fire and Fighting stuff. Yes that's right, but I brought it up as General Business near the end of the meetings as I had received a similar query. That person was also told no, for the same reasons Rosemary quoted. Remember it's still called 'DragonQuest' and many of the core rules are still similar to the original - enough to get the sue-crazy Yanks up in arms :-) >At a gods meeting late last year (sorry don't know what one) the gods said it >was O.K. to put up a copy in PDF format or the Rules out for players and >GMs alike to use. At that meeting I talked about the prose and cons or >copyright >and what the effects of putting the rulebook on the web would be. Can't find anything like that in the minutes. Anyone remember this? >> The next version of the rule book will not be before June 99, and may be >> later. >So are the New skills that Martin did are in play as real rulesor >are they in "play test" and in general use waiting to go in the new rule book >when it comes out? Yes they are in the current version. (Ver 1.2) Keith (phaeton@ihug.co.nz) -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Feb 12 08:00:43 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id IAA04080; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 08:00:43 +1300 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id IAA04072 ; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 08:00:41 +1300 Received: from [209.78.49.86] (p22-max10.akl.ihug.co.nz [209.78.49.86]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA04643 ; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 20:38:57 +1300 Message-Id: <199902120738.UAA04643@smtp1.ihug.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 20:41:43 +1300 Subject: Re: DQ - Spell Prices From: flamis@pop.ihug.co.nz (Jacqui Smith) To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >If we want to prevent low-level characters from getting too many powerful >spells, but not cripple the medium-high range with unreasonable costs, then >we need a reducing scale or some other mechanism which is targetted at >characters with few adventures. That's a very big "If" ... One of the most important ways to increase PC variety is unusual magic, which may be the result of learning less common (and perhaps more powerful) magic at a early stage in the character's development. Thus Flamis, who through happenstance (she really wanted to learn Fireflight, but since she was paying the mage for his time in teaching her, asked what else he had she could learn at the same time - Fireflight took 14 weeks to learn in those days) ended up with Dragonflames at the end of her *first* adventure, has become notorious for that spell... It's a extreme example, I am aware of this, but as a GM I quite like to see characters who aren't *just* another Mind mage, just another Earth mage... Jacqui -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Feb 12 08:01:19 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id IAA04101; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 08:01:19 +1300 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id IAA04093 ; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 08:01:18 +1300 Received: from [209.78.49.86] (p22-max10.akl.ihug.co.nz [209.78.49.86]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA04699 ; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 20:39:34 +1300 Message-Id: <199902120739.UAA04699@smtp1.ihug.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 20:42:20 +1300 Subject: Re: DQ - Spell Prices From: flamis@pop.ihug.co.nz (Jacqui Smith) To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. >I didn't mean that they require less roleplaying skill, just that often there >is less opportunity for it. The DQ combat system is a prime suspect in this, >in that a short combat (taking a minute or two of in-game time) may occupy a >whole session of 3+ hours, and an involved combat might take up most of the 13 >weeks. > >Lots of gaming, and as Andrew pointed out, lots of room for contribution, but >less room for "pure" roleplaying. But it isn't essential for medium-high level games to be continuous combat. Adventurers with any sense at all will use all their wits and magic at their disposal to avoid combat, and the dangers that combat entails. I'm playing in a Parkie adventure where the danger level has been very high - but between the Illusionist and the Mind mage we've had a great time duping the opposition - to the point where were hoping to be assigned to guard the very person we have been employed to kill... We've largely avoided combat, and the role-playing has been very cool... >Even Vila will fight like a cornered rat -- the fun is in the roleplaying of >getting him into the corner, no? :) Oh, yes... I almost got him with a vampire in the Mars adventure... It did the ethereal thing and struck at the hindmost of the party! Jacqui -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Feb 12 08:02:08 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id IAA04125; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 08:02:08 +1300 Received: from gate.datacom.co.nz (gate.datacom.co.nz [202.27.76.67]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id IAA04117 ; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 08:02:06 +1300 Received: from dslak3.dslak.co.nz ([192.203.216.7]) by gate.datacom.co.nz (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id UAA13873 ; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 20:40:23 +1300 (NZDT) Received: by dslak3.dslak.co.nz with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.996.62) id <01BE56C7.CDB67500@dslak3.dslak.co.nz>; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 08:39:36 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: RE: Bardic College Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 08:39:33 +0100 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.996.62 From: "David Hall (DSLAK)" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. [Jacqui Wrote] >I tend to consider emotions more the province of Mind mages, and define the >province of Bards as music, sound and communication. I can see no reason to >disallow the magical manipulation of sound, and if any College is capable >of performing sound magic, it is the Bardic College. While I agree that Bardic would certainly contain sound magic, and be a college skilled in the magical manipulation of sound, I would think that these sound based spells should all be "originating" from the mage. To clarify that - it is a performance based college - that's what bards do, so while sound based magic such as the Great Shout spell fits with this performance aspect (The mage projects something), doing wierd things with what the mage hears doesn't fit the feel I have for the college. I don't know - can talented musicians from the real world, navigate any better in the dark because of their talent? A vaguely silly argument, I admit, given this is magic we are talking about, but something about a Bardic mage using echoes, really doesn't sit straight. IMHO of course :-) David Hall -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Feb 12 15:14:42 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id PAA05617; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 15:14:42 +1300 Received: from ingate.uk.neceur.com (ingate.uk.neceur.com [193.116.254.1]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id PAA05609 ; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 15:14:38 +1300 Received: from internal-mail.uk.neceur.com by ingate.uk.neceur.com id OAA06629; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 14:50:33 GMT Received: from smtpgate.uk.neceur.com by internal-mail.uk.neceur.com id OAA19353; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 14:50:42 GMT from smtpgate.uk.neceur.com (smtpgate.uk.neceur.com [193.116.194.14]) id OAA19353 (2.4-8.8.8/3.1.31); Fri, 12 Feb 1999 14:50:42 GMT Received: from ccMail by smtpgate.uk.neceur.com (IMA Internet Exchange 2.12 Enterprise) id 000AAFA7; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 14:55:01 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 14:52:28 +0000 Message-ID: <000AAFA7.1814@uk.neceur.com> Subject: Re[2]: DQ Rulebook. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: cc:Mail note part From: Ross.Alexander@uk.neceur.com To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Hi ya, I'm happy to redo the rule book. I'm going to do it anyway for personal reasons (i.e. I want do). Ross -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Feb 12 20:28:18 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id UAA05869; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 20:28:18 +1300 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id UAA05859 ; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 20:28:15 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p5-max3.akl.ihug.co.nz [207.213.218.133]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA31218 ; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 09:06:14 +1300 Message-Id: <199902122006.JAA31218@smtp1.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: Bardic College Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 08:52:49 +1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. ---------- > From: Jacqui Smith Jim wrote: > >My objection to the spell is not whether or not it was unusual to find in a > >game system, just that it was an inappropriate spell for the genre, and for > >the college. This is a college about communication and people, possibly > >even including Elves. It is not a college about bats or dolphins. A beast > >mage of some sort might conceivably be able to be able to echo-locate > >(although they may not 'know' the mechanism by which they see with this > >sense). > > Certainly a College based on "Animal magic" might have this effect. The > Rolemaster spell is in a Druidic list. However, the very fact that it > exists in Ars Magica, a very traditionalist system, and in this same group > of "Air Information" spells as "Whispering Winds" which is a line-of-sight > Clairaudience spell indicates that not everyone considers it out of genre. Ars Magica cannot be called a traditionalist system, in fact to call it a system at all is to misname the game. I suggest people actually buy the game, and have a go at DMing it, because it rapidly becomes apparent that, as far as mechanics are concerned, it lacks many of the basic necessities. It does not attempt to balance character types at all, for example. In Ars Magica, a character who is not a mage does not have anything like the range of options that a character who is has. That's fine in that game, because it is a game more closely connected with playing a role, and bugger the parts of the game that we loosely call the contributions of the player. Further, the game has a vast grimoire of spells, and the opportunity for players to research more of their own. In a system as open as that, if an echo-location spell didn't exist, it soon would, anyway. Nevertheless, I see that I have allowed myself to be drawn away from the main point, which is, irrelevant of what games has it in their system, I do not believe that a Bard would be a mage who could locate things by echolocation. It is a college about music, and communication. > >I find it hard to see how a 'Bard' would, unless you accept 'sound' based > >magic. I believe that song-, emotion-, and communication-based magic is at > >the root of a bardic college, and simple sound-based magic is more the > >province of a super-hero or futuristic game of some sort. > > I tend to consider emotions more the province of Mind mages, and define the > province of Bards as music, sound and communication. Mind mages may well be able to manipulate emotions. That is not an exclusive property of the Mind college, in the same way that Extinguish Fires is not the exclusive property of Fire mages, or Charm is not the exclusive property of E&E mages. Merely because you happen to believe that another college deals in a particular area of magic does not mean that another college should not have some interest in it. Therefore, I say again, the Bardic college is about manipulating emotions. That is, after all, how we judge the greatest performers...By the degree to which our emotions were affected. > I can see no reason to > disallow the magical manipulation of sound, and if any College is capable > of performing sound magic, it is the Bardic College. > If the manipulation of sound is to, say, imitate a voice or a sound, or to create music, I don't have a problem. I do have a problem when the manipulation of sound is the only reason for why a Bard might have it. Sound is not the medium through which their magic flows, music is. The fact that music is a sound-based art form does not, of itself, mean that a Bard would have control over sound. It does suggest that magic that defeats sound is going to seriously limit a Bard, if not completely turn them off. > I'd be very surprised to find sound-based *magic* in an SF game of any > sort! Perhaps sound-based psi powers...? True. Magic is not usually associated with SF games. It is common in super-hero games. It's not uncommon in SF games, as a Psi power. The only roleplaying game I have ever seen that had a Sound 'College' was Fantasy Hero, which is of course, Champions written for Fantasy games, and poorly, at that. Jim. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Feb 12 20:28:20 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id UAA05887; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 20:28:20 +1300 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id UAA05867 ; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 20:28:16 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p5-max3.akl.ihug.co.nz [207.213.218.133]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA31221 ; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 09:06:15 +1300 Message-Id: <199902122006.JAA31221@smtp1.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: Bardic College Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 08:59:57 +1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. ---------- > From: Jacqui Smith Jim wrote: > >Perhaps this spell should have a cone shaped area of effect, the base > >emanating from the 'bard's' mouth. It is a shout, after all. > > The word "projected" is intended to imply a ventriloquism-like effect, > which allows it to be a single target spell. > > What you suggest is a possibility, but would be a different spell altogether. It's not like the spell you are suggesting is actually in the game. It is a different spell to the spell initially advanced, which I altered. It is a different spell to the one that you wrote, which you are in the process of altering. Why does its differentness deny any possiblity that it should be considered? > > >On another issue, over what distance would you suggest this spell be heard, > >if it were cast in the open? > > It doesn't need to be audible beyond the target as currently written, and > it's probably simplest if it isn't. Basically, that's a can of worms I'd > prefer not to open... Is this spell not called the Shout of Thunder? Should we be calling it the Whisper of Thunder? This spell, apparently, attacks a victim, and may render them deaf. How does this happen if it doesn't happen by volume? Does the spell pick up parsley, and stick it in a victim's ears? Personally, I believe this spell should be an area of effect spell, and that it should be audible, outside, over 4 x its range. I'd make it 10 x on the inside. Jim. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Feb 12 20:28:13 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id UAA05855; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 20:28:13 +1300 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id UAA05847 ; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 20:28:12 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p5-max3.akl.ihug.co.nz [207.213.218.133]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA31208 ; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 09:06:10 +1300 Message-Id: <199902122006.JAA31208@smtp1.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: DQ - Spell Prices Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 08:23:51 +1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. ---------- > From: Mandos Mitchinson >Jim wrote: > >I believe this to be either prejudice over what roleplaying and high level > >gaming are, or exposure to poorly run high level games. I do not believe it > >is what should happen in a game. > >As far as trying to keep their character alive, that should be at the > >forefront of every player's mind. Candidates with a deathwish don't make > >effective adventurers. They don't even make effective cannon fodder. > > > Can we define predjudice? I certainly do not go into a high level game > thinking this is going to suck. I go in each time assuming it will be a good > fun game and will be enjoyable. In all cases the GM's have been good and the > stories have been entertaining but the attitudes of the players is what I > don't like. It is a competetive, we must struggle, rat race style of play > that while valid and entertaining for some is not that enthraling for me > personally. I like action and stress but not all the time and constantly > being careful wears on the nerves after a while. Low and medium games tend > to have breaks and interludes between the stress that allows people to be > happier and more social IMHO. Opportunities to interact with other players is not an opportunity to do more, or indeed less, roleplaying. It is an opportunity to interact with other players. If that interaction carries no moment for the character, it isn't roleplaying. Not that I'm against player interaction. I am against stereotyping this as roleplaying. > > You as a player seem to enjoy the stress and exitement that comes from a > high level game and I respect that. But it is a different style of play to > the other levels. I enjoy low level games, as well as medium level games. In fact, I like games where I find myself challenged, and presented with an opportunity to have something meaningful happen to my character, or to do something meaningful to the world with my character. I don't think level is a factor, although, I do think DMing is. > The only real point is that the different levels do have a > different style of play and we need to acnowledge that. I would suggest that different levels of play require different styles of play, depending on the DM. DMs do moderate their game when administering different levels of play. I have found that high level means different things to different people. It is pretty important to find out what high level means to the person who's DMing you...but, then, it's pretty important to find out what low- and medium-level mean, as well. Jim. -- See message headers to unsubscribe from --