From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Feb 17 00:03:54 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id AAA16083; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 00:03:54 +1300 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id AAA16080 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 00:03:53 +1300 Received: from highcastle (p6-max6.akl.ihug.co.nz [209.76.103.70]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA03116 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 00:02:11 +1300 Subject: RE: 42 Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 23:58:14 +1300 Message-ID: <000301be599b$40219c20$12eafea9@highcastle> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 From: "Struan Judd" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: , dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Jim Arona > > > I don't think DMing happens this exclusively. I think that a DM makes > adjustments to the game so that it creates the effects they're > looking for. > Therefore, they need to have a pretty free hand with the rules, > in general. > The most effective thing we could do to improve the game would be to teach > players that the rules are not the game, as the map is not the territory. > They are a guide, only, and a DM may choose to play or not play a rule the > way the player would like. It is better for the player to either play > within the DMs constraints of the game, or play in another game, if they > can't derive enjoyment from it. > Instead, we have the attitude that the player is this frail, delicate > thing, who must be fostered like a delicate orchid. Instead, > players should > be a lot more robust, and take up the challenge that playing in a game > where the world can alter beneath their feet from time to time. It is, > after all, a magical world. > Jim. {crawls out from from under rock} Here, here. And then Ben says to me, He feels that DQ is more like surfing an Avalanche. {pulls rock back over head, leaving feelers out} ---- Struan L. Judd <*> Email: neon@sf.org.nz ICQ: 4498196 -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Feb 17 08:13:37 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id IAA16348; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 08:13:37 +1300 Received: from peace.com (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id IAA16345 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 08:13:35 +1300 Received: via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/pcnz2.7) id IAA16033; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 08:11:41 +1300 Message-ID: <36C9C54E.8B905387@peace.co.nz> Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 08:21:50 +1300 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Martin's email address Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------AEFDD7E3244B505FA51C9319" From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------AEFDD7E3244B505FA51C9319 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, We seem to be having a problem with our US name server (peace.com). I appear to be getting the list mail, but some people are getting bounces and my own messages are taking a very long time to appear on the list. If you would like to send me email it may be better to use the martin.dickson@peace.co.nz address. Cheers, Martin Jim Arona wrote: > Martin, what is your email address. All of the mail I send to you keeps > being bounced. > Jim. > > -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- --------------AEFDD7E3244B505FA51C9319 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="martin.dickson.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Martin Dickson Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="martin.dickson.vcf" begin:vcard n:Dickson;Martin tel;fax:+64-9-373 0401 tel;work:+64-9-373 0400 x-mozilla-html:FALSE org:Peace Software International;Software Development version:2.1 email;internet:martin.dickson@peace.com title:Team Leader adr;quoted-printable:;;Peace Tower =0D=0ASt. Martins Lane;Auckland;;;New Zealand fn:Martin Dickson end:vcard --------------AEFDD7E3244B505FA51C9319-- -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Feb 17 18:32:53 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id SAA16742; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 18:32:53 +1300 Received: from kcbbs.gen.nz (kcbbs.gen.nz [202.14.102.1]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id SAA16739 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 18:32:52 +1300 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by kcbbs.gen.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA23536 for dq@dq.sf.org.nz; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 18:26:48 +1300 (NZDT) Message-ID: <36CA528F.A9590C50@games.co.nz> Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 18:24:31 +1300 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: 42 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------AF671ABCD27DF754380339A1" From: Mike Young To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz --------------AF671ABCD27DF754380339A1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim Arona wrote: > > From: Andrew Withy (FAL AKL) > > > > > > Why not have a rules gang of four that does the same thing? > > > > Main draw-back, do we have four volunteers who most GMs trust > > collectively to touch the rules? And can we leave people to get on > > with the job? > > I don't think that this is acheivable or even desirable. I think that it's > the wrong approach to take. What we ought to be doing is educating players > in being more flexible about playing under different DMs, not make the game > rules consistent. > Jim. Hear, Hear. My comment was just a wise crack and not meant to be taken seriously. There are more than enough Rules Nazi's in DQ already without enshrining some of them! I guess I will have to learn how to make these silly faces characters so that people know when I'm taking the piss etc. Regards, Michael Young. Circle Games - PBM Telephone (649) 828-2959 Email mike@games.co.nz Facsimile (649) 828-2759 Website http://www.games.co.nz Circle Games PBM PO Box 105-320 Auckand 1030 New Zealand --------------AF671ABCD27DF754380339A1 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit  

Jim Arona wrote:

> From: Andrew Withy         (FAL AKL) <AndrewW@falum.co.nz>
>
>
> Why not have a rules gang of four that does the same thing?
>
> Main draw-back, do we have four volunteers who most GMs trust
> collectively to touch the rules? And can we leave people to get on
> with the job?

I don't think that this is acheivable or even desirable. I think that it's the wrong approach to take. What we ought to be doing is educating players
in being more flexible about playing under different DMs, not make the game rules consistent.
Jim.

Hear, Hear.

My comment was just a wise crack and not meant to be taken seriously. There are more than enough Rules Nazi's in DQ already without enshrining some of them! I guess I will have to learn how to make these silly faces characters so that people know when I'm taking the piss etc.
 

Regards,
Michael Young.

 Circle Games - PBM

 Telephone (649) 828-2959     Email   mike@games.co.nz
 Facsimile (649) 828-2759     Website http://www.games.co.nz

 Circle Games PBM
 PO Box 105-320
 Auckand 1030
 New Zealand
  --------------AF671ABCD27DF754380339A1-- -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Feb 17 19:48:06 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id TAA16837; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 19:48:06 +1300 Received: from kcbbs.gen.nz (kcbbs.gen.nz [202.14.102.1]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id TAA16834 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 19:48:05 +1300 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by kcbbs.gen.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA25166 for dq@dq.sf.org.nz; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 19:42:00 +1300 (NZDT) Message-ID: <36CA63A6.7F1C8DD2@games.co.nz> Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 19:37:26 +1300 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: 42 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------9CECB8F4944C26CF924EA129" From: Mike Young To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz --------------9CECB8F4944C26CF924EA129 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim Arona wrote: > > From: Andrew Withy (FAL AKL) > > > > Why not have a rules gang of four that does the same thing? Then GMs can > get on with running games and developing rich plot lines to entertain. > > I don't think DMing happens this exclusively. I think that a DM makes > adjustments to the game so that it creates the effects they're looking for. > Therefore, they need to have a pretty free hand with the rules, in general. > The most effective thing we could do to improve the game would be to teach > players that the rules are not the game, as the map is not the territory. > They are a guide, only, and a DM may choose to play or not play a rule the > way the player would like. It is better for the player to either play within > the DMs constraints of the game, or play in another game, if they can't > derive enjoyment from it. Instead, we have the attitude that the player is > this frail, delicate thing, who must be fostered like a delicate orchid. > Instead, players should be a lot more robust, and take up the challenge that > playing in a game where the world can alter beneath their feet from time to > time. It is, after all, a magical world. > Jim. I agree. Players scream for rule consistancy mainly because they think it gives them power over the world. But in fact one of the easiest ways to kill a player is to play the game exactly by the rules. Haven't you ever noticed that many of the GM's that play closest to the rules have the highest body counts!? We do after all play in a critical hit system. We use dice for gods sake! Since when do dice care that you have been playing this character for years or that it's you favourite character or that you are clever? Besides playing strictly by the rules tends to makes for boring and predictable games. So where does that leave the player? I guess they have to choose to play in GM's games that they enjoy and that they trust. Then they have to hope that their trust is not misplaced and get on with ensuring that the game is enjoyable for all, which is an area that they do have some control over. If they don't enjoy a game then they have to ask themselves why that was the case. Was it the fault of the GM, perhaps one or more of the party, did you have a character or party that wasn't suited for that particular game, was the GM jaded and in need of a break, perhaps you need to take a break. There can be lots of reasons why you didn't enjoy a game. The only remaining question is what do you do about it? Believe me complaining about the rules is not the answer. Every time you play in a GM's game is an act of faith. Not only do you have to count on the fairness of the GM, but you have to count on the actions of the other players and if they/you screw up then it's completely in the hands of the GM as to the outcome. The most perilous games can be those that involve a GM whom you have never encountered before, then again they may turn out to be a great GM. The same is true for players new to you. They could be bad, they could be good. You will just have to find out the hard way. If you get screwed over then you could approach the GM afterwards but if they are remain firm then well, get over it. If you always play it safe then perhaps you should take up some other hobby. Enough for now.... Regards, Michael Young. Circle Games - PBM Telephone (649) 828-2959 Email mike@games.co.nz Facsimile (649) 828-2759 Website http://www.games.co.nz Circle Games PBM PO Box 105-320 Auckand 1030 New Zealand --------------9CECB8F4944C26CF924EA129 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim Arona wrote:

> From: Andrew Withy         (FAL AKL) <AndrewW@falum.co.nz>
>
> Why not have a rules gang of four that does the same thing? Then GMs can get on with running games and developing rich plot lines to entertain.

I don't think DMing happens this exclusively. I think that a DM makes adjustments to the game so that it creates the effects they're looking for. Therefore, they need to have a pretty free hand with the rules, in general. The most effective thing we could do to improve the game would be to teach players that the rules are not the game, as the map is not the territory. They are a guide, only, and a DM may choose to play or not play a rule the way the player would like. It is better for the player to either play within the DMs constraints of the game, or play in another game, if they can't derive enjoyment from it. Instead, we have the attitude that the player is this frail, delicate thing, who must be fostered like a delicate orchid. Instead, players should be a lot more robust, and take up the challenge that playing in a game where the world can alter beneath their feet from time to time. It is, after all, a magical world.
Jim.

I agree. Players scream for rule consistancy mainly because they think it gives them power over the world. But in fact one of the easiest ways to kill a player is to play the game exactly by the rules. Haven't you ever noticed that many of the GM's that play closest to the rules have the highest body counts!? We do after all play in a critical hit system. We use dice for gods sake!  Since when do dice care that you have been playing this character for years or that it's you favourite character or that you are clever? Besides playing strictly by the rules tends to makes for boring and predictable games.

So where does that leave the player? I guess they have to choose to play in GM's games that they enjoy and that they trust. Then they have to hope that their trust is not misplaced and get on with ensuring that the game is enjoyable for all, which is an area that they do have some control over. If they don't enjoy a game then they have to ask themselves why that was the case. Was it the fault of the GM, perhaps one or more of the party, did you have a character or party that wasn't suited for that particular game, was the GM jaded and in need of a break, perhaps you need to take a break. There can be lots of reasons why you didn't enjoy a game. The only remaining question is what do you do about it? Believe me complaining about the rules is not the answer.

Every time you play in a GM's game is an act of faith. Not only do you have to count on the fairness of  the GM, but you have to count on the actions of the other players and if they/you screw up then it's completely in the hands of the GM as to the outcome. The most perilous games can be those that involve a GM whom you have never encountered before, then again they may turn out to be a great GM.  The same is true for players new to you. They could be bad, they could be good. You will just have to find out the hard way. If you get screwed over then you could approach the GM afterwards but if they are remain firm then well, get over it. If you always play it safe then perhaps you should take up some other hobby.
 

Enough for now....
 
 

Regards,
Michael Young.

 Circle Games - PBM

 Telephone (649) 828-2959     Email   mike@games.co.nz
 Facsimile (649) 828-2759     Website http://www.games.co.nz

 Circle Games PBM
 PO Box 105-320
 Auckand 1030
 New Zealand
  --------------9CECB8F4944C26CF924EA129-- -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Feb 17 20:33:19 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id UAA16866; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 20:33:19 +1300 Received: from peace.com (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id UAA16863 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 20:33:18 +1300 Received: via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/pcnz2.7) id UAA01015; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 20:31:05 +1300 Orig-Sender: Michael.Woodhams@peace.com Message-ID: <36CA7039.3061BAE6@peace.co.nz> Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 20:31:05 +1300 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05C-SGI [en] (X11; I; IRIX 6.5 IP32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: 42 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Michael Woodhams To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: Michael.Woodhams@defacto.peace.co.nz, dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mike Young wrote:

 
I agree. Players scream for rule consistancy mainly because they think it gives them power over the world. But in fact one of the easiest ways to kill a player is to play the game exactly by the rules.
I don't recall screaming for rule consistency, but the reasons I feel it is desirable as a player are:1) So I don't get surprised when something I had counted on working doesn't. When you've assasinated the enemy general and the cavalry are about to come round the corner after you is *NOT* the time you want to discover that if you try to hide inside your illusionary tree the illusion disappears.
2) So I can plan my character advancement to take advantage of synergistic effects. E.g. I want to be able to heal animals, and I've seen in one game that having healer and beastmaster allowed that. I go away and spend heaps of time and EP on healer and beastmaster, then discover that only one GM allows that combination to heal animals, and I should have been learning herbalist instead.
but if they are remain firm then well, get over it. If you always play it safe then perhaps you should take up some other hobby.
You're right - role playing is too hazardous for me. I'm quiting DQ to take up my new, safer hobby of 'base cave diving and climbing'. It goes like this: find a pot hole (in the spielological sense.) Dress in scuba gear and a parachute. Jump down, slowing yourself with the parachute. Just before hitting the water, release the parachute and dive in. Explore the underwater parts of the cave. Climb out up the rock face.  

Michael W.
  -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Feb 17 20:57:04 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id UAA16903; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 20:57:04 +1300 Received: from peace.com (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id UAA16900 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 20:57:03 +1300 Received: via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/pcnz2.7) id UAA01387; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 20:54:52 +1300 Orig-Sender: Michael.Woodhams@peace.com Message-ID: <36CA75CB.6EA20713@peace.co.nz> Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 20:54:52 +1300 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05C-SGI [en] (X11; I; IRIX 6.5 IP32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: 42 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Michael Woodhams To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: Michael.Woodhams@defacto.peace.co.nz, dq@dq.sf.org.nz Michael Woodhams wrote: > I don't recall screaming for rule consistency, but the reasons I feel > it is desirable as a player are:1) So I don't get surprised when > something I had counted on working doesn't. When you've assasinated > the enemy general and the cavalry are about to come round the corner > after you is *NOT* the time you want to discover that if you try to > hide inside your illusionary tree the illusion disappears. > 2) So I can plan my character advancement to take advantage of > synergistic effects. E.g. I want to be able to heal animals, and I've > seen in one game that having healer and beastmaster allowed that. I go > away and spend heaps of time and EP on healer and beastmaster, then > discover that only one GM allows that combination to heal animals, and > I should have been learning herbalist instead. I forgot to say - I haven't had too much trouble like this. Generally I can spot the issues that may be a problem and ask my GM how this part of the world works before setting off to assasinate the general, or ask around GMs that I know on how various questionable rules are generally interpreted. The level of consistency at the moment is acceptable, I think. GMs who play significant varients should (and I think mostly do) give advance warning. -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers --