From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Feb 24 07:05:57 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id HAA25731; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 07:05:57 +1300 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id HAA25728 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 07:05:56 +1300 Received: from [209.76.149.186] (p58-max27.akl.ihug.co.nz [209.76.149.186]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA20951 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 07:00:08 +1300 Message-Id: <199902231800.HAA20951@smtp2.ihug.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 06:54:09 +1300 Subject: Re: Getting the Right Party (42 and multi-level play) From: flamis@pop.ihug.co.nz (Jacqui Smith) To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz >The wrong mix of characters, missing a vital college for the adventure, >the average level is too low (or high), a bunch of thugs on a diplomatic >mission, or a bunch of fops on an orc bash. Usually GMs will announce specific colleges they require. I imagine they don't always get them, although it is sometimes possible to fill a gap with an NPC or with an item loaned by the employer to the party. For example, I might want the party to go underwater for part of your adventure. Now the guild has only a very few watermages, and let's say that Aqualina isn't available. So I can either use an NPC water mage to cast the water-breathing spells or lend them water-breathing items or whip up some potions. Usually it's only one effect required. I have been known to allow the party to find an item early in the adventure which supplied the missing magic. As for thugs and fops - there are a surprising number of Guild members who can be either by turns! >Usually you don't find this out until after the guild meeting is over, >and changing players is a logistical nightmare. Sometimes you get lucky >and one or two players can play their other character which fixes the >problem. >The rest of the time the GM has a choice, modify the adventure, or let >them continue and risk a lousy adventure, a cake walk, or killing them >all. I really think that GMs could be more selective at the Guild meeting, ask a few more questions about characters, and should be prepared to turn away those who are completely unsuitable. >Amongst its strengths which have helped keep the guild going all these >years, our method of getting characters on adventures has its problems. >I have no idea how to fix it without losing many of the positive >aspects. Does anyone have any workable ideas? Obviously GMs will need to trust players with more information about their adventures if players are to make that decision. Or simply be prepared to tell the meeting up front that this is a diplomatic mission, no thugs wanted etc. Jacqui -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Feb 24 07:05:54 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id HAA25726; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 07:05:54 +1300 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id HAA25723 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 07:05:53 +1300 Received: from [209.76.149.186] (p58-max27.akl.ihug.co.nz [209.76.149.186]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA20948 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 07:00:03 +1300 Message-Id: <199902231800.HAA20948@smtp2.ihug.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 06:54:05 +1300 Subject: RE: 42 and multi-level play From: flamis@pop.ihug.co.nz (Jacqui Smith) To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz >> which encouraged multi-level play. > > >My experience from playing low level characters in high level games, is that >the "adventure level" definitions in DQ are a fiction, provided 3 out of >say 6 party members are "appropriate" to the game. The reason for this is >the limited Fatigue and Endurance rules for DQ. Basically a few magic items >spread around by older characters raises the weaker party members up to >speed, after that its just attitude on the part of the player. To a large extent what you say is true in other systems as well. Items and individual skills and abilities can boost characters' effective level considerably. For example, my AD&D paladin just made ninth level, but will happily take on opponents several levels higher - and beat them to a pulp. Why? She has 19 strength, a +4 sword, and an AC of -6. Say no more... The same enhancement can and does happen to DQ characters - which makes the perception stat somewhat useless as a guide to judge the level of a character. What makes the perception stat even more misleading is the way xp is spent in DQ, so that highly specialised characters become tough in specific areas, but are useless at anything else. Those characters are much more difficult to place in adventures than more generalist characters. The latter develop more slowly, but are easier to fit on an adventure, because there's generally *something* they can do. After a few years a generalist character will have a higher perception than a specialist, but will tend to play at a lower level because they're not as tough as that specialist. However, they're a lot more flexible and more playable. I think you can tell I prefer generalists. They're more satisfying to play because they can contribute more often. They're easier to GM because the GM can get them involved in the adventure more easily. >A lot of the level definition is based on the perception Stat. People often >exclude themselves from a game because their perception is too low, taking >this to mean they lack experience. The truth is a perception of 15 is just >as useless as one of 5 if the enemies has 25, 20 or even 17; either way you >fail. Basically, as stated, multi-level parties are just as successful as >all high level ones. Perception is used as a guideline because it relates to how many adventures a character has had, which is theoritically a guide to experience. However there are so many variables - how well the character is played, how that xp is spent, and the items the character has, that by the time PC is past ten or so it's next to useless. The player's perception of their character is generally far more reliable as a guide. >A better way of judging a campaign is to find out what the GM intends, God >bothering or killing a few orcs, and then to find out who you are playing >with. Its the players you game with who decide how successful the game will >be. Unfortunately being brave, able to respond appropriately, creative or >judge a threat aren't skills that most people learn quickly from >roleplaying. I think we should perhaps encourage GMs to say a little more about their adventures at the Guild meeting in GM to player mode as opposed to employer to character mode. Enough for players to deduce whether their character really is going to enjoy this adventure. What perhaps needs to be given out is something like the blurb of a novel - allowing the player to decide if their character will fit into this story, as a author would choose characters for that novel. >As they say, the good are already good and get better. >The average improve a bit. >The stupid are,.... well.... stupid. I tend to think of myself as somewhere between average and good... And as for being brave, I didn't have confidence enough in myself or my characters for that, until relatively recently. Now, even Flamis has done brave stuff. Jacqui -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Feb 24 09:26:35 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id JAA25866; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 09:26:35 +1300 Received: from aj.co.nz (ns.aj.co.nz [202.27.194.165]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id JAA25863 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 09:26:31 +1300 Received: by aj.co.nz(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.3 (778.2 1-4-1999)) id CC256721.00757A57 ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 09:23:10 +1200 X-Lotus-FromDomain: ARMSTRONG JONES Message-ID: Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 09:23:04 +1200 Subject: Re: Fumbles Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline From: rmansfield@aj.co.nz To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Lovely. Seems to have a good balance of mildly annoying through to major stuff ups. I liked the humorous tone of the document. Mike, I'm returning a 'proofed' copy of the document in a separate email Rosemary This message contains confidential information intended only for the individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient any use, review, perusal, dissemination, distribution or copying of this document is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error please immediately telephone us on +64-9-356 4000 and destroy the original message. -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Feb 24 12:58:35 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id MAA26095; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 12:58:35 +1300 Received: from mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (mailhost.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.1.4]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id MAA26092 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 12:58:34 +1300 Received: from sci4 (lbr-122-42.lbrsc.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.122.42]) by mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (8.9.2/8.9.2/8.9.2-ua) with SMTP id MAA08576 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 12:52:38 +1300 (NZDT) Message-Id: <199902232352.MAA08576@mailhost.auckland.ac.nz> Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 12:52:53 +0000 Subject: Re: Fumbles X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) From: "Michael Parkinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz, dq@dq.sf.org.nz Dear Rosemary, Dear Rosemary, thanks for the effort -- I knew I'd been a bit erratic about spacing, etc, but I hadn't realised how many other irregularities crept through. regards, Michael Michael Parkinson Mathematics & Statistics Librarian Science Library, University of Auckland, Private Bag 92019, AUCKLAND, N.Z. Email: m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz Phone: (09) 3737 599 x 5858 Fax: (09) 3082 304 -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Feb 24 12:59:07 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id MAA26105; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 12:59:07 +1300 Received: from int-mail.syd.fl.net.au (int-mail.syd.fl.net.au [202.181.0.28]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id MAA26101 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 12:59:06 +1300 Received: from ecgserver3.ecg.com.au (fl-gw.ecg.com.au [203.30.61.94]) by int-mail.syd.fl.net.au (Postfix) with ESMTP for id 6B31B168F7; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 10:53:07 +1100 (EST) Received: by ECGSERVER3 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) id ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 10:50:40 +1100 Message-ID: Subject: RE: Jonno Fighting 8.0 - Warrior skill - Requirements Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 10:50:39 +1100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain From: Phil Judd To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz All, As this is a fairly large document I will post discussion a byte at a time. I general agree with the objectives of Jonno's proposal but think some clarifications and tweaking needs to be done. Subject: Warrior skill - Requirements Glancing at the changes to the Warrior skill I notice a number of changes. I've mentioned earlier the changes to the abilities etc but I would like to pass comment (and receive some discussion) on the area of the Requirements to be a warrior. Under the old skill a warrior had to "generalise" and learn lots of different weapon classes. Due to the fact that it takes a long time to rank weapons this made the warrior skill one that a character had to be fairly committed to. Under the new system a Warrior needs to learn weapon abilities (advanced moves) in order to be allowed to progress. Most of these take a very large amount of experience and only little time. Here is a comparison table between the XP and time required for the "old" system and the new one. I've made some assumptions 1. A warrior will attempt to use the cheapest path in XP in order to fulfil their prerequisites - I'm not sure how weapon abilities which can't be ranked apply as prerequisites so I have not used any of them (I think that this does on the whole make things a little more expensive) - but I did manage to add in warriors discounts on weapon abilities per 2 ranks. 2. The one rank 4 close weapon (required for the old system) can also be the >= Rank 4 weapon from the ranking requirements table (I can't remember whether this is true or not - if not add 21 weeks onto the time requirement for the old system. 3. As the XP and time for ranking warrior itself is the same in both cases it has been excluded from this table. 4. In the new proposal the requirements all state "ranked over X" so I will presume that the warrior has ranked their skill 1 higher - eg. weapon abilities ranked to rank 5 OLD Rank of Proposal Time XP Warrior Time XP 24 weeks 475 0 - - 40 weeks 950 1 - - 49 weeks 1,220 2 - - 89 weeks 2,070 3 ~45 weeks 16,050 101 weeks 2,320 4 " " 125 weeks 3,220 5 ~150 weeks 126,000 155 weeks 4,420 6 " " 185 weeks 6,320 7 ~199 weeks 168,020 223 weeks 8,630 8 " " 269 weeks 10,520 9 " " 325 weeks 15,920 10 " " The proposal seems a little extreme to me. I'm not suggesting the old system was a good one and seemed to have the unnecessary complication of weapon categories but the new proposal changes warriors from being generalists who are good with a variety of weapons to specialists that have a few high ranked weapons (that's where most of the time came from) and a few expensive special abilities. This change has the most implication as far as Conversion goes as well. I would like to see Warriors having knowledge of a number of different weapons and specialising in a couple. Effectively the change has changed warrior from a weapon skill to a weapon ability skill - not necessarily a bad thing. Anyway I would like to see a more graduated scale of prerequisites rather than just three levels (in the centre of the 1 - 10 range) and some requirements on basic weapons to support the high ranked ones. Awaiting comments. Phil Judd pjudd@clear.net.nz -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Feb 24 12:59:09 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id MAA26109; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 12:59:09 +1300 Received: from int-mail.syd.fl.net.au (int-mail.syd.fl.net.au [202.181.0.28]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id MAA26100 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 12:59:03 +1300 Received: from ecgserver3.ecg.com.au (fl-gw.ecg.com.au [203.30.61.94]) by int-mail.syd.fl.net.au (Postfix) with ESMTP for id 8E690168F5; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 10:53:02 +1100 (EST) Received: by ECGSERVER3 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) id ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 10:50:36 +1100 Message-ID: Subject: RE: Jonno Fighting 8.0 - Conversion. Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 10:50:36 +1100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain From: Phil Judd To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz >> Subject: RE: Jonno Fighting 8.0 - Conversion. > Dear All, > > just a quick response > >> Subject: >> Conversion document. >> >> Why is this needed at all? > [....] >> (shame about all that time spent on learning Flail and War club & other > > useless weapons) > > This answers your own question: you've spent ep on something "useless" > **merely because you had to meet warrior criteria. However, as a matter > of scale I agree that the conversion document is probably too extreme. By > the way, the example in the document is incorrect (should be 12pt + 15 > pts) Yes, nearly the sole reason for ranking these weapons was to qualify as a warrior, and the new warrior skill has no such requirement any more (see RE: Jonno Fighting 8.0 - Warrior post for more comment) but the conversion suggestion does not address this issue - even after "conversion" I still retains these ranks and weapons. This is not a conversion - It is a freebie. > > > My suggestion is NO CONVERSION and if we want to trial these skills we > > should playtest them. > > Conversion is essential for all those *genuine* fighters out there who > have lost the ability to multi-strike B-class weapons, etc. However I > tend to favour some sort of e.p.& time shuffle -- which would avoid the > appearence of inequity, and be closer to a genuine "ripple effect". OK - everyone losses the automatic abilities Multi-Hex strikes Replacement cost - 8,000 XP and 1 week Disarming blows Replacement cost - 10,000 XP and 1 week Knock-out blows Replacement cost - 2,000 XP Trip attack Not replaced Advanced unarmed combat Not mentioned except in header area ??? Shield bash Replacement cost - 2000 XP and 1 week If the object of conversion is to give these back to people who have lost these and use them regularly - then that is what we should do. > > If there is no Conversion, we suddenly have 1 or 2 years of adventures > where every fighter suddenly become unbelievably incompetent compared to > NPC, or even the PC's own historical record. The vast majority of NPC's will not have any of these skills - as they are in general advanced fighting techniques. So it shouldn't affect many but those characters at the upper end. Those High level characters can now explain (and possible learn) why there might still be better fighters than themselves out there. So yes, those who have topped out now find they can get better - isn't this desirable? - By giving them some sort of conversion bonus we only may "top" them out again. Ultimately all NPC's abilities are under GM control. Previously if we wanted a 3,000 year old elf warrior to be better than Count Blitzkreg we could. This just quantifies some of these skills and allows a formalised way of implementing them. > > If there is a freebie conversion bonus -- I avoid using the word "bribe" > -- the new skills are cheapened. Which would be a pity, since I believe > Jono's proposals, on the whole, are a very positive contribution to the > game. I agree, proposals are very positive and will add options to the game providing we can sort out the odd issue here and there. > > regards, michael > > Michael Parkinson > Information Services > A/L Science Library, University of Auckland. > Email: m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz > Phone: (09) 3737 599 x 5858 Fax: (09) 3082 304 Phil Judd pjudd@clear.net.nz -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Feb 24 13:36:56 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id NAA26198; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 13:36:56 +1300 Received: from mail.iconz.co.nz (oldmail.iconz.co.nz [202.14.100.36]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id NAA26195 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 13:36:55 +1300 Received: from mandos (e0.firewall.ak.iconz.net.nz [202.14.100.208]) by mail.iconz.co.nz (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id NAA234700919816259 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 13:30:59 +1300 (NZDT) Message-ID: <009901be5f8c$9bdcedc0$0d64a8c0@mandos.iconz> Subject: Schools Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 13:28:31 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 From: "Mandos Mitchinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz This may be premptory since the fighting doc is still under discussion but I am looking at a doc to standardise the creation and implementation of the schools of fighting. What I would like is any types of information you believe would be useful in the description of a fighting school. Currently I have Name Locations Reason for operation Main source of income Skills taught Requirments for entry and teaching Background I have made up a quick sample school, one unlikly to ever be used by guild member but it serves as a guide for the moment. School: Followers of Aknaal Monastery Location: Small Island chain 6 weeks sailing south west of seagate Reason for operation: The Cult was originally founded as a pirate base as a sanctuary far away from neighboring nations. The founder worshiped maltheus and slowly the base formed a more cult like status. Money and provisions come from piracy, smuggling and other illegal operations all through the western kingdom and other ports around allusia. The islands are self-sustaining food wise. Recent history: A guild party recently killed a large number of islanders and cultists when they recently visited. The head priest and other head figures were also killed. Maltheus was destroyed and returned as Aknaal The Spider Demon who is now worshipped by the cult. Their Martial arm is small and relatively unknown but acts as a small elite mercenary fighting force. Special Skills known. Single hand of Truth, Reverse Stroke, and all pre-requesites. In order to be taught the special skills the potential recruit must join the ranks of the Cult and pledge allegiance to Aknaal. A period of 1 year must be with the cult training and working with the martial arm of the cult during which the training is spent completed in all skills. Anyone found to have associations with the Cult will not be accepted into any other martial school due to the nature of the rumors that circulate about the cult. GM : Mandos Mandos /s -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers --