From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Mar 2 08:23:31 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id IAA02371; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 08:23:31 +1300 Received: from kcbbs.gen.nz (kcbbs.gen.nz [202.14.102.1]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id IAA02368 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 08:23:30 +1300 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by kcbbs.gen.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA21138 for dq@dq.sf.org.nz; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 08:10:16 +1300 (NZDT) Message-ID: <36DAE65E.686018FC@games.co.nz> Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 08:11:26 +1300 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Fighting Ver 0.8 playtest. Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Jono Bean To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Hi All, I want to get some of the GMs the next session going out to put it in to play test. We can talk about this at the gods meeting. I want to put the Fighting Ver 0.8 on to the agenda as moving into play test (again) for next meeting. Yours faithfully, Jono Bean Circle Games - PBM Telephone (64) 021 649-628 Facsimile (649) 828-2759 Home (649) 828-2959 Email jono@games.co.nz Website http://www.games.co.nz Circle Games - PBM, PO Box 105-320 Auckand 1030 New Zealand. -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Mar 2 09:38:56 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id JAA02410; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 09:38:56 +1300 Received: from fep1-orange.clear.net.nz (fep1-orange.clear.net.nz [203.97.32.1]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id JAA02407 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 09:38:55 +1300 Received: from qed_akl_nt_1.qed.co.nz ([203.97.23.141]) by fep1-orange.clear.net.nz (1.5/1.11) with ESMTP id JAA10402; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 09:29:43 +1300 (NZDT) Received: by qed_akl_nt_1.qed.co.nz with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) id ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 09:29:28 +1300 Message-ID: <15A7D8BC5E3ED2119E2E0000F82150FC0B85C2@qed_akl_nt_1.qed.co.nz> Subject: New Fighting Skills Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 09:29:18 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain From: Stephen Martin To: dq-announce@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq-announce@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Jono has proposed that we put the new Fighting skills through further playtest this session. I propose that we aim at putting it into the next rule book under a probationary status for two years. The probationary status means that: 1) Any EP and Time spent on the fighting skills is fully refundable if the fighting skills change or are dropped. 2) The fighting document may be changed on a session by session basis rather than only with a new rulebook (this is for tweaks and patches). 3) Any EP and Time spent on the fighting skills is fully refundable at the end of the probationary period if the player choses. Cheers, Stephen. -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Mar 2 10:01:29 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id KAA02439; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 10:01:29 +1300 Received: from peace.com (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id KAA02436 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 10:01:26 +1300 Received: via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/pcnz2.7) id JAA27473; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 09:52:13 +1300 Orig-Sender: Michael.Woodhams@peace.com Message-ID: <36DAFDFC.20CB9E9A@peace.com> Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 09:52:12 +1300 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05C-SGI [en] (X11; I; IRIX 6.5 IP32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: New Fighting Skills Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Michael Woodhams To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: Michael.Woodhams@peace.com, dq@dq.sf.org.nz Stephen Martin wrote: > Jono has proposed that we put the new Fighting skills through further > playtest this session. > I propose that we aim at putting it into the next rule book under a > probationary status for two years. I don't think this is close to being ready for probationary status yet, and will not be before the next rule book comes out. A change of this magnitude needs significant play testing, adjustment based on that play testing, and another round of significant playtesting before it is ready to go into the rule book. I think the 2000 rules are what we should be aiming at. Michael W. -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Mar 2 10:43:39 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id KAA02470; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 10:43:39 +1300 Received: from exchange.telebusiness.co.nz ([203.97.136.3] (may be forged)) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id KAA02467 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 10:43:38 +1300 Received: by proxy.telebusiness.co.nz with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1461.28) id ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 10:34:21 +1300 Message-ID: <01FAE6CB4A43D0118AB00020AF0F9257609CC8@proxy.telebusiness.co.nz> Subject: RE: New Fighting Skills Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 10:34:19 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1461.28) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Terry Spencer To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz I think this is very premature. We need to hear the respose from playtesting before any proposal of this type can be made. Jono has proposed that we put the new Fighting skills through further playtest this session. I propose that we aim at putting it into the next rule book under a probationary status for two years. The probationary status means that: 1) Any EP and Time spent on the fighting skills is fully refundable if the fighting skills change or are dropped. 2) The fighting document may be changed on a session by session basis rather than only with a new rulebook (this is for tweaks and patches). 3) Any EP and Time spent on the fighting skills is fully refundable at the end of the probationary period if the player choses. Cheers, Stephen. -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Mar 2 11:13:46 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id LAA02495; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 11:13:46 +1300 Received: from peace.com (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id LAA02492 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 11:13:44 +1300 Received: via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/pcnz2.7) id LAA02183; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 11:04:30 +1300 Message-ID: <36DB116A.AA9080B5@peace.co.nz> Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 11:15:07 +1300 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: New Fighting Skills Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------9A698CB730FB8B40B5DE40AF" From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------9A698CB730FB8B40B5DE40AF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Stephen Martin wrote: > Jono has proposed that we put the new Fighting skills through further > playtest this session. > I propose that we aim at putting it into the next rule book under a > probationary status for two years. > The probationary status means that: [snip] > 2) The fighting document may be changed on a session by session basis > rather than only with a new rulebook (this is for tweaks and patches). This goes against the whole principle of the rulebook remaining stable for its life of a year or so. If we believe that the fighting skills may need continual patching throughout its probation period -- then is that not a ruleset developed to playtest readiness? Stephen, what you seem to be suggesting here is putting a playtest document into the rulebook and calling it probationary to justify its inclusion. What is the benefit to be gained from doing this? Why will doing this be better than a playtest? You have explained how its inclusion could be handled -- but not the reason for doing it. Cheers, Martin --------------9A698CB730FB8B40B5DE40AF Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="martin.dickson.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Martin Dickson Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="martin.dickson.vcf" begin:vcard n:Dickson;Martin tel;fax:+64-9-373 0401 tel;work:+64-9-373 0400 x-mozilla-html:FALSE org:Peace Software International;Software Development version:2.1 email;internet:martin.dickson@peace.com title:Team Leader adr;quoted-printable:;;Peace Tower =0D=0ASt. Martins Lane;Auckland;;;New Zealand fn:Martin Dickson end:vcard --------------9A698CB730FB8B40B5DE40AF-- -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Mar 2 12:18:57 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id MAA02616; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 12:18:57 +1300 Received: from fep1-orange.clear.net.nz (fep1-orange.clear.net.nz [203.97.32.1]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id MAA02613 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 12:18:56 +1300 Received: from qed_akl_nt_1.qed.co.nz ([203.97.23.141]) by fep1-orange.clear.net.nz (1.5/1.11) with ESMTP id MAA06358; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 12:09:40 +1300 (NZDT) Received: by qed_akl_nt_1.qed.co.nz with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) id ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 12:09:24 +1300 Message-ID: <15A7D8BC5E3ED2119E2E0000F82150FC0B85C3@qed_akl_nt_1.qed.co.nz> Subject: RE: New Fighting Skills Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 12:09:22 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain From: Stephen Martin To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Our playtests seem to have limited effectiveness. A successful playtest for us is when few keen people playtest something for a session (ideally on an appropriate adventure), they provide feedback, some changes get made, and then nothing happens. Those few keen people have done their dash, they don't want to be continually playtesting they want to play the game. And nobody else cares enough or has enough time/energy to playtest it properly. Most playtests are less successful than this, primarily (IMO) because most GMs consider the flow of the game more important than testing some new rules and most players are more interested in enjoying the game than playtesting. So anytime playtesting would interfere with the game flow or enjoyment it gets put aside. One option is for someone to be a playtesting Nazi and wander around with some sort of stick ensuring that people playtest properly. If anyone out there wants to do this and thinks that they or anyone else would enjoy it then you're probably playing in the wrong campaign. Another option is to sweeten the deal with the only currency that really matters - EP. But I object to bribing players with EP to subsume their role-playing and enjoyment to playtesting. So what it comes down to is that we playtest some changes if enough people are keen to do so. Then based on our years of playing and GMing DQ we decide whether the change will work or not. Once most of us are in agreement that it will work then we put it into play. Sometimes we'll be wrong - big deal! We then fix it or remove it. I think that we're getting so caught up in our own beaurocracy and fear of making mistakes that we almost never achieve anything. Why don't we just trust our combined decades or GMing and Roleplaying experience and make decisions. Sometimes we'll be right sometimes we'll be wrong. We're not designing nuclear reactors here, it doesn't matter if we're wrong sometimes. RE: Fighting in particular, let's put it into play, see whether anyone thinks it's worthwhile spending EP and time on, see which bits don't work, and then fix them. I think the costs are too high in some areas and some other areas need tweaking, but it's basically right. Cheers, Stephen. > -----Original Message----- > From: Martin Dickson [SMTP:martin.dickson@defacto.peace.co.nz] > Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 1999 11:15 AM > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Subject: Re: New Fighting Skills > > Stephen Martin wrote: > > > Jono has proposed that we put the new Fighting skills through > further > > playtest this session. > > I propose that we aim at putting it into the next rule book under a > > probationary status for two years. > > The probationary status means that: > > [snip] > > > 2) The fighting document may be changed on a session by session > basis > > rather than only with a new rulebook (this is for tweaks and > patches). > > This goes against the whole principle of the rulebook remaining stable > for > its life of a year or so. If we believe that the fighting skills may > need > continual patching throughout its probation period -- then is that not > a > ruleset developed to playtest readiness? > > Stephen, what you seem to be suggesting here is putting a playtest > document into the rulebook and calling it probationary to justify its > inclusion. What is the benefit to be gained from doing this? Why > will > doing this be better than a playtest? > > You have explained how its inclusion could be handled -- but not the > reason for doing it. > > Cheers, > Martin > -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Mar 2 15:40:31 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id PAA02950; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 15:40:31 +1300 Received: from kcbbs.gen.nz (kcbbs.gen.nz [202.14.102.1]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id PAA02947 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 15:40:30 +1300 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by kcbbs.gen.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA09858 for dq@dq.sf.org.nz; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 15:27:06 +1300 (NZDT) Message-ID: <36DB4985.10B585A3@games.co.nz> Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 15:14:29 +1300 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: New Fighting Skills Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Jono Bean To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Stephen Martin wrote: > Our playtests seem to have limited effectiveness. > > A successful playtest for us is when few keen people playtest something > for a session (ideally on an appropriate adventure), they provide > feedback, some changes get made, and then nothing happens. Those few > keen people have done their dash, they don't want to be continually > playtesting they want to play the game. And nobody else cares enough or > has enough time/energy to playtest it properly. What Stephen is saying has been true for the playtesting of the Fighting Document so far. I have at 6 Gods meetings tried to get GMs to test the document in games that they where going to be taking out. The document has had at least 5 major re-writes based on play testing and gods meetings, and I think we have used up (most) of play testers. This has meet with limited effectiveness, and it has only been play-tested in 3 sessions worth of games. If we need to do more testing it must be on a larger scale with more GMs behind a single testing effort. Otherwise we are all just wasting play-testers time. What Stephen sead about offering EP as a bribe to test a new set of rules may be needed, but most GMs won't like the idea of giving out EP just for testing. Yours faithfully, Jono Bean Circle Games - PBM Telephone (64) 021 649-628 Facsimile (649) 828-2759 Home (649) 828-2959 Email jono@games.co.nz Website http://www.games.co.nz Circle Games - PBM, PO Box 105-320 Auckand 1030 New Zealand. -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Mar 2 19:00:03 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id TAA03401; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 19:00:03 +1300 Received: from mail.iconz.co.nz (oldmail.iconz.co.nz [202.14.100.36]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id TAA03398 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 19:00:02 +1300 Received: from mandos (e0.firewall.ak.iconz.net.nz [202.14.100.208]) by mail.iconz.co.nz (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id SAA176150920353836 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 18:50:36 +1300 (NZDT) Message-ID: <00f001be6470$389eab70$0d64a8c0@mandos.iconz> Subject: Re: New Fighting Skills Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 18:47:54 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 From: "Mandos Mitchinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz >> Jono has proposed that we put the new Fighting skills through further >> playtest this session. >> I propose that we aim at putting it into the next rule book under a >> probationary status for two years. > >I don't think this is close to being ready for probationary status yet, >and will not be before the next rule book comes out. A change of this >magnitude needs significant play testing, adjustment based on that play >testing, and another round of significant playtesting before it is ready >to go into the rule book. I think the 2000 rules are what we should be >aiming at. I don't think it is that big a change, it will be a case of a few manouvers may need to be tweaked and altered but otherwise the concept looks sound. I say get it into play and I will happily playtest it in my game this session. Mandos /s -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers --