From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Jul 19 16:39:13 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id QAA32238; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 16:39:13 +1200 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id QAA32235 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 16:39:12 +1200 Received: from [206.18.101.212] (p20-max36.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.101.212]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id QAA03627 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 16:32:55 +1200 Message-Id: <199907190432.QAA03627@smtp2.ihug.co.nz> X-Sender: flamis@pop.ihug.co.nz (Unverified) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 16:34:04 +1300 Subject: Undetectability From: flamis@pop.ihug.co.nz (Jacqui Smith) To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Here it is, folks. The latest version of Undetectability, following the instructions of the June meeting: S11. Undetectability Range: 5 feet + 5 / Rank Duration: Passive concentration: maximum 10 minutes + 10 / Rank Experience Multiple: 450 Base Chance: 15% Resist: May not be resisted Storage: Potion Target: Entities Effect: The targets of this spell may pass undetected by any sensory means, magical or mundane, with the exception of touch. Up to 1 target + 1/4 ranks or part thereof may be affected. Each target must remain within the range of the spell from the caster for the spell to continue to affect that target. The targets may all perceive each other normally. The targets may be detected by an entity who is consciously observing the area if one of the targets fails to make their stealth check, and that entity suceeds in a 1 x perception roll. Thus a guard who is watching the town gate may get a perception check, but the juggler busy entertaining the crowd waiting to enter would not. Should any of the affected entities perform an obtrusive action such as talking loudly, spell-casting, firing a missile weapon, or throwing an object, this check is raised to 2 x perception. Should any of the affected entities attempt a melee attack on an entity, that entity may then make a 3 x perception roll to notice the targets. Should any of the affected entities successfully strike a entity, the effect ceases and the targets are no longer concealed by this spell. It is possible to detect the passage of the targets of this spell after they have left an area by using mundane means. For example, the target of this spell will leave footprints in the sand, which will become visible when the area is no longer within the range of the spell. The targets may be detected by extrasensory magical means such as telepathy, locate spells or similar, but not by witchsight. An undetectable person may communicate by extrasensory magical means such as Mind Speech. Once the majority are all sufficiently contented with the workings of this spell, I'll insert it in place, and post the complete Mind College rewrite. Please, note that this is a rewrite, not a revision as such, with the primary aim being clarification of existing rules. It is only in a few cases, where there appears to be major problems with an existing spell - to the point of being unplayable, such as Undetectability - that actual revision is being done. Jacqui Smith -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Jul 19 17:00:58 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id RAA32268; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 17:00:58 +1200 Received: from fclaklmr01.fcl.co.nz (mail.fcl.co.nz [203.98.14.148]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id RAA32265 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 17:00:55 +1200 Received: from falaklex00.falum.co.nz ([10.8.1.28]) by fclaklmr01.fcl.co.nz (Post.Office MTA v3.5.1 release 219 ID# 0-0U10L2S100) with ESMTP id nz for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 16:55:25 +1200 Received: by falaklex00.fcl.co.nz with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 16:55:26 +1200 Message-ID: <311B3C3DD32FD311B33900805F770A7294C9@falaklex00.fcl.co.nz> Subject: RE: Undetectability Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 16:55:25 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01BED1A2.EA572EB0" From: "Andrew Withy (FAL AKL)" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01BED1A2.EA572EB0 Content-Type: text/plain This spell descriptions is not as I remember the discussion. For instance, any melee attack, successful or otherwise (like E&E invis) breaks the spell for all targets. Other attacks had some multiple of PC Doing nothing had no multiple - i.e. targets could not be seen if successfully stealthing. Could others present confirm this, or was I just hallucinating? Andrew > ---------- > From: flamis@pop.ihug.co.nz[SMTP:flamis@pop.ihug.co.nz] > > Here it is, folks. The latest version of Undetectability, following the > instructions of the June meeting: > > S11. Undetectability > Range: 5 feet + 5 / Rank > Duration: Passive concentration: maximum 10 minutes + 10 / Rank > Experience Multiple: 450 > Base Chance: 15% > Resist: May not be resisted > Storage: Potion > Target: Entities > Effect: The targets of this spell may pass undetected by any sensory > means, > magical or mundane, with the exception of touch. Up to 1 target + 1/4 > ranks > or part thereof may be affected. Each target must remain within the range > of the spell from the caster for the spell to continue to affect that > target. The targets may all perceive each other normally. > The targets may be detected by an entity who is consciously observing the > area if one of the targets fails to make their stealth check, and that > entity suceeds in a 1 x perception roll. Thus a guard who is watching the > town gate may get a perception check, but the juggler busy entertaining > the > crowd waiting to enter would not. > Should any of the affected entities perform an obtrusive action such as > talking loudly, spell-casting, firing a missile weapon, or throwing an > object, this check is raised to 2 x perception. > Should any of the affected entities attempt a melee attack on an entity, > that entity may then make a 3 x perception roll to notice the targets. > Should any of the affected entities successfully strike a entity, the > effect ceases and the targets are no longer concealed by this spell. > It is possible to detect the passage of the targets of this spell after > they have left an area by using mundane means. For example, the target of > this spell will leave footprints in the sand, which will become visible > when the area is no longer within the range of the spell. The targets may > be detected by extrasensory magical means such as telepathy, locate spells > or similar, but not by witchsight. An undetectable person may communicate > by extrasensory magical means such as Mind Speech. > > Once the majority are all sufficiently contented with the workings of this > spell, I'll insert it in place, and post the complete Mind College > rewrite. > Please, note that this is a rewrite, not a revision as such, with the > primary aim being clarification of existing rules. It is only in a few > cases, where there appears to be major problems with an existing spell - > to > the point of being unplayable, such as Undetectability - that actual > revision is being done. > > Jacqui Smith ------_=_NextPart_001_01BED1A2.EA572EB0 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Undetectability

This spell = descriptions is not as I remember the discussion.

For instance, any = melee attack, successful or otherwise (like E&E invis) breaks the = spell for all targets.
Other attacks had = some multiple of PC
Doing nothing had = no multiple - i.e. targets could not be seen if successfully = stealthing.

Could others present = confirm this, or was I just hallucinating?

Andrew

    ----------
    From:   = flamis@pop.ihug.co.nz[SMTP:flamis@pop.ihug.co.nz]

    Here it is, folks. The latest version = of Undetectability, following the
    instructions of the June = meeting:

    S11.    = Undetectability
    Range: 5 feet + 5 / Rank
    Duration: Passive concentration: = maximum 10 minutes + 10 / Rank
    Experience Multiple: 450
    Base Chance: 15%
    Resist: May not be resisted
    Storage: Potion
    Target: Entities
    Effect: The targets of this spell may = pass undetected by any sensory means,
    magical or mundane, with the = exception of touch. Up to 1 target + 1/4 ranks
    or part thereof may be affected. Each = target must remain within the range
    of the spell from the caster for the = spell to continue to affect that
    target. The targets may all perceive = each other normally.
    The targets may be detected by an = entity who is consciously observing the
    area if one of the targets fails to = make their stealth check, and that
    entity suceeds in a 1 x perception = roll. Thus a guard who is watching the
    town gate may get a perception check, = but the juggler busy entertaining the
    crowd waiting to enter would = not.
    Should any of the affected entities = perform an obtrusive action such as
    talking loudly, spell-casting, firing = a missile weapon, or throwing an
    object, this check is raised to 2 x = perception.
    Should any of the affected entities = attempt a melee attack on an entity,
    that entity may then make a 3 x = perception roll to notice the targets.
    Should any of the affected entities = successfully strike a entity, the
    effect ceases and the targets are no = longer concealed by this spell.
    It is possible to detect the passage = of the targets of this spell after
    they have left an area by using = mundane means. For example, the target of
    this spell will leave footprints in = the sand, which will become visible
    when the area is no longer within the = range of the spell. The targets may
    be detected by extrasensory magical = means such as telepathy, locate spells
    or similar, but not by witchsight. An = undetectable person may communicate
    by extrasensory magical means such as = Mind Speech.

    Once the majority are all sufficiently = contented with the workings of this
    spell, I'll insert it in place, and = post the complete Mind College rewrite.
    Please, note that this is a rewrite, = not a revision as such, with the
    primary aim being clarification of = existing rules. It is only in a few
    cases, where there appears to be = major problems with an existing spell - to
    the point of being unplayable, such = as Undetectability - that actual
    revision is being done.

    Jacqui Smith=20

------_=_NextPart_001_01BED1A2.EA572EB0-- -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Jul 19 19:16:30 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id TAA32396; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 19:16:30 +1200 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id TAA32393 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 19:16:29 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p45-tnt6.akl.ihug.co.nz [216.100.154.45]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id TAA17848 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 19:10:10 +1200 Subject: Re: Undetectability Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 19:14:01 +1200 Message-ID: <01bed1b6$4747e660$83ff6dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz I don't know what was discussed at the God's Meeting where this issue appears to have been discussed, but I can see a number of problems with this spell. As I see it, the current version creates a bookkeeping nightmare for the DM, which in turn creates an inequitable pressure on the DM. They may be forced to choose between speed of resolution on behalf of dramatic relevance and accuracy of result, on behalf of maintaining suspension of disbelief. -->S11. Undetectability >Range: 5 feet + 5 / Rank >Duration: Passive concentration: maximum 10 minutes + 10 / Rank >Experience Multiple: 450 >Base Chance: 15% >Resist: May not be resisted >Storage: Potion >Target: Entities >Effect: The targets of this spell may pass undetected by any sensory means, >magical or mundane, with the exception of touch. Up to 1 target + 1/4 ranks >or part thereof may be affected. Each target must remain within the range >of the spell from the caster for the spell to continue to affect that >target. The targets may all perceive each other normally. >The targets may be detected by an entity who is consciously observing the >area if one of the targets fails to make their stealth check, and that >entity suceeds in a 1 x perception roll. Thus a guard who is watching the >town gate may get a perception check, but the juggler busy entertaining the >crowd waiting to enter would not. This means that unless the character(s) fail a Stealth roll, they're undetectable. In itself, that's not really a problem. However, the chance is further qualified, by saying that the watcher must be someone who is specifically watching, i.e. a person in the area, but not actively checking it out would not justify a Stealth check. If this is the case, then it seems to me that anyone under the effects of this spell will be able to slip through a crowd of people unnoticed. As in, without any chance of being noticed. It strikes me that there should be some opportunity for the concealed person (or people) to be noticed. Perhaps the chance shouldn't be great, but it should be there. My main concern, however is the PC check issue. What this means is that if the Stealth roll is failed, then the watcher must make a one, or two times PC roll to notice them.... In effect, this means that the situation has merely changed from the way it originally was all the time someone was under the effects of this spell, to having it only happening on the occasions when they fail a Stealth roll... Since this roll is made only by the DM, then this puts pressure on the DM to rule that the Stealth roll was not failed, because to not have it fail means that the bookkeeping excercise must be entered into again...Admittedly, not for the Undetectable party, but certainly with regard to which NPC can see which concealed person (or people). This is a very bad approach to take in spell design. If you're going to design, or redesign a spell, then some consideration must be given to the amount of time and effort a DM must exert to administer it. I don't see that that has happened here. >Should any of the affected entities perform an obtrusive action such as >talking loudly, spell-casting, firing a missile weapon, or throwing an >object, this check is raised to 2 x perception. >Should any of the affected entities attempt a melee attack on an entity, >that entity may then make a 3 x perception roll to notice the targets. >Should any of the affected entities successfully strike a entity, the >effect ceases and the targets are no longer concealed by this spell. The multiplying PC checks are okay...However, do watchers get to make PC checks every time such an attack is made, or only once, or every pulse, regardless of strike checks? Personally, I favour every pulse, regardless of whether or not a strike check is attempted, until the concealed person (or people) move out of sensing range. >It is possible to detect the passage of the targets of this spell after >they have left an area by using mundane means. For example, the target of >this spell will leave footprints in the sand, which will become visible >when the area is no longer within the range of the spell. The targets may >be detected by extrasensory magical means such as telepathy, locate spells >or similar, but not by witchsight. An undetectable person may communicate >by extrasensory magical means such as Mind Speech. This is a good idea, although I don't see why it wouldn't apply to spells or abilities that detected souls or spirits, and so on... In conclusion, I think THIS spell needs extensive revision, as well as the one it intends to replace. I would suggest that the best approach to spell design is to look at what a DM would have to do in the middle of a game to administer the spell. That way, it's more likely to create an environment where the game doesn't become stilted or stall completely while trying to work out the ramifications. Jim. -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Jul 19 22:06:58 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id WAA32513; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 22:06:58 +1200 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id WAA32510 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 22:06:57 +1200 Received: from paul (p71-max14.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.243.107]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id WAA25181 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 22:00:36 +1200 Message-ID: <000e01bed1cd$9e3002c0$0c64640a@paul> Subject: Re: Undetectability Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 22:00:28 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 From: "Paul Schmidt" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Undetectibility. I think there may have been a misunderstanding as to what was decided at the Gods meeting. The issue became tied up with seperate points. 1) Was how to simplify Undetectibility 2) Was how far to extend it. This was Jonos point. Did it effect Undead and other creatures without normal means of detecting entities. 3) Was stealth. The details on each point (out of order) were: Point 2: It was decied the intent of the spell was to cover all entities and sense organs, hence some of Jacquis re-write. Point 3: It was decided that if a succesful Stealth check had been made then another roll for Undectibility wasn't needed, after all the person was already out of sight (so as to speak). Later conditions might change this. It was not meant as an ability to avoid checks simply becuase somone wasn't specifically looking. Point 1: It was decided that a single roll should cover a group. Obviously excetional circumstances might alter this. Cheers Paul -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Jul 19 22:16:31 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id WAA32534; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 22:16:31 +1200 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id WAA32531 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 22:16:30 +1200 Received: from ihug.co.nz (p32-max19.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.17.119.160]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id WAA13058 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 22:10:08 +1200 Message-ID: <3792F810.719E4FAD@ihug.co.nz> Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 22:04:01 +1200 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Undetectability Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Scott Whitaker To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz While not at the Gods meeting that discussed this I feel this adds extra work on to the GM. A simpler approach is needed as in this case thr GM needs to keep checking for conditions which keep changing. At least the old write up was a singlre fail/suceed roll. scott -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers --