From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Sep 27 09:09:04 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id JAA10462; Mon, 27 Sep 1999 09:09:04 +1200 Received: from mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (mailhost.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.1.4]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id JAA10459 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 1999 09:09:02 +1200 Received: from sci4 (lbr-122-42.lbrsc.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.122.42]) by mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (8.9.2/8.9.2/8.9.2-ua) with SMTP id IAA28951 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 1999 08:54:00 +1200 (NZST) Message-Id: <199909262054.IAA28951@mailhost.auckland.ac.nz> Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 08:59:04 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Calendar X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) From: "Michael Parkinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz, dq@dq.sf.org.nz Jim (& Bystanders) > > I don't think I'm missing the point. I'm saying that the cognitive load > is greater whenever you have a calendar that is different to the current > one. It means that players and DMs have to learn a new calendar. That is a > cognitive load. It is increased. Therefore, it is not a move toward easier > gaming in an area that is, after all, more to do with bookkeeping than any > other aspect of the game. You miss the point that the new calander is easy to tabulate & requires no effort to LEARN; but if I do wish to memorise salient facts it only takes a few moments. I have been in games under the old system where NO-ONE knew when the next full moon was; these days diaries do NOT automatically indicate when the phases of the moon appear; and of course none indicate the high holidays which have always been in our game -- so that is one forced to consult atleast one list of dates. Unless you're suggesting that the high holidays etc should be translated into modern dates which have the desired overtones? Well that would be a long and fruitless argument. > That is, precisely, my point. The real calendar has overtones. The > Alusian one doesn't, unless the DM knows that an event that is important to > a player (players) occurs on a particular date(s). Alternatively, you could > publish significant dates, as George suggested. Again, the cognitive load > increases. We are confronted with a calendar that becomes more and more > difficult to keep track of. What's your point -- no high holidays? No days on which the evil forces try to make the most of it? etc etc > It isn't enough for something to be simple, I think. It should be > better, as well. The only thing the Alusian calendar does well is let you > calculate your time expenditure whilst on adventure, Ranking or laying about > in whatever den of iniquity takes your fancy. "ONLY thing" -- come off it Jim. Besides it's not even the major advantage -- although it is much easier to calcluate weeks expended & days left over, than our current post-Renaissance calendar You have totally ingnore several other advantages. My favourite would be knowing the phases of the moon, & feeling confortable about working the all implications of moon-phases into the campaign. I dislike inconsistencies in my own GMing, let alone unnecessary clashes with other adventures. > It is so regular it has the appearance of a spreadsheet, As I pointed out before, the moon should be sufficiently regular. Indeed the cycle of the moon is a key element to virtually all pre-Renaissance cultures; although less important today to our civilization. > and it lacks a > sense of dynamism. It doesn't FEEL like a calendar that people have lived > through...It most reminds me of the French Revolutionary calendar. They > abandoned that one, too. Which they abandonned for purely political reasons; not because it didn't work -- admittedly as poorly as any modern real-world calendar does. > You may not have an emotional connection to the holiday...At least, I > hope you don't, but you know what it's about, and framed within the context > of the right game, I suggest to you that it would have more impact on you > than televised images of costumed, sweet-smeared infants sadly lacking in > manners. > Therefore, if you came across the date in a game, then it would be a > legitimate incidence of foreshadowing, which is to say, it is a hint about > something that is to come. Allowing players to legitimately use this > information is important, because it means that the DM doesn't have to tell > them explicitly. It joins the player more firmly to the game if they can > bring something they know to the story and have it validated. Well if you feel like that, GM all your games off-plane and warn charaters to pay attention to out-of-game knowledge. But I think it is stupid to use things which have modern equivalences; if such elements are used they should atleast be in sufficient disguise that players can politely pretend not to recognise them. I enjoy it at as GM when the player discretely signals that they have got a particular reference; and then veils their words with double-entendre that at face value is entirely in character. Is it better role-playing to recognise the dates October 31st or December 25th; or is it better to ignore them because what it brings to the game is the modern world, contrary to the mood of our particular fantasy genre. [Aside: not that I can, or want to, define what *is* in the correct mood; I merely point out what is foreign]. Modern dates in "Call of Cthulu"? --F ine, excellent. In DQ-- no thanks. You said above (although I cut it out) you hadn't decided on Christmas. Tough, you've automatically included it. unless you want to increase the cognitive load by listing for player what they should or shouldn't recognise. And even if you did, such a bastardised is too easliy perceived as lack of effort by the GM and game-weakening. > Of course you can generate tension in other ways, but you cannot > foreshadow merely using a date, unless 1) the date has some known game > relevance to all of the players, or 2) the DM knows that a particular date > is important to a particular character. > The problem with point 1) is that the more important dates you have, the > harder the calendar becomes to administer and the problem with point 2) is > that it's a multi-DM environment and it's hard to know what dates are > important to all of the players. Very true. I think our Alusian calender easily accomodates such, without the players think of the other dates we don't want in the game. I want players to think of a particular day as being the soltice; not 3 or 4 days before christmas. > I regularly use a calendar. It doesn't open wounds when I do so. As far > as a game is concerned, I really don't like player's to be fossicking around > looking for stuff in the middle of a game, although I don't have an > objection to them doing it when there's nothing pressing happening. But, a > character who is checking stuff out during a moment of high drama invariably > bleeds tension out of the story. > This can happen as easily with the real calendar as it can with the > Alusian one. You miss the point that it is essential with the real, modern calaendar. It's not obligatory with the Alusian one. If the phase of the moon is relevant, the party will be subtly reminded of it [as well as blatantly seeing it in their 1-page calendar, if they wish to fossick]. As you are aware, it is possible to tabulate the real calander sufficiently for players needs. Indeed under the old "real" system, one of the most common uses for the SeaGate Times was as an Almanac. Neither, really, reduces the effect of that happening. A player > that will want to check out something on one calendar will want to check out > the same thing on another. I'm inclined to believe that they will have more > things to check out with the Alusian calendar, than they will the real one. Ah! Here we have a difference of opinion, or possibly fact. I know that the player will have more need to consult the modern real calendar that with the Alusian one -- that was my non-unique experience, *especially* when I GMed, not to mention the difficult of first finding a Modern calendar or diary which had what I wanted on it. [let's skip the part where I belabour how important the lunar cycle was for pre-modern societies, since you seem unprepared or unable to concede it.] > You seem to think that the Alusian calendar adds to the flavour of a > fantasy game, because of the structure of the months and days. > On the other hand you believe that the real calendar has too much of the > wrong flavour. Quite so; and more besides. Michael Parkinson Mathematics & Statistics Subject Librarian Science Library, University of Auckland, Private Bag 92019, AUCKLAND, N.Z. Email: m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz Phone: (09) 3737 599 x 5858 Fax: (09) 3082 304 -------------------------------------------------------------- ... at a great distance from its empirical source, or after much "abstract" inbreeding, a mathematical subject is in danger of degeneration. At the inception the style is usually classical; when it shows signs of becoming baroque, then the danger signal is up. -- von Neumann (1947) in "The Neumann Compendium" edited by Brody & Vamos (1995) ======================================================================== -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Sep 27 11:44:47 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id LAA10698; Mon, 27 Sep 1999 11:44:47 +1200 Received: from bo.nznet.gen.nz (ns1.nznet.gen.nz [203.167.232.34]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id LAA10695 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 1999 11:44:46 +1200 Received: from takitimu.co.nz (ms2-11.nznet.gen.nz [203.167.232.141]) by bo.nznet.gen.nz (8.8.7/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA29239 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 1999 11:43:20 +1200 Received: from takitimu.co.nz by takitimu.co.nz; Mon, 27 Sep 99 11:01:42 +1200 Message-ID: <37EEA6C5.5BA94D57@takitimu.co.nz> Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 11:16:18 +1200 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Calendar Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Kelsie To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: kelsie@takitimu.co.nz, dq@dq.sf.org.nz > > It isn't enough for something to be simple, I think. It should be > > better, as well. The only thing the Alusian calendar does well is let you > > calculate your time expenditure whilst on adventure, Ranking or laying about > > in whatever den of iniquity takes your fancy. > > "ONLY thing" -- come off it Jim. Besides it's not even the major > advantage -- although it is much easier to calcluate weeks expended & > days left over, than our current post-Renaissance calendar You've got to be kidding. Any spreadsheet can subtract one date from another. Now I have to do it by hand, literally, running my finger down the page and counting. (Though I have been promised and never recieved spreadsheets have been 'taught' to use the new calendar) And people are always asking during a game what month it is, and what's next, so someoone fossicks out a copy of the calendar... 'Day x of adventure' is now so much easier to use than the calendar, figure it out later, then realise you've missed a day of significance. The difference in 'cognitive load' is sort of like that of trying to say the alphabet forwards or backwards; between knowing and being able to figure out. Kelsie -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Sep 27 12:14:25 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id MAA10751; Mon, 27 Sep 1999 12:14:25 +1200 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id MAA10748 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 1999 12:14:24 +1200 Received: from paul (p173-tnt6.akl.ihug.co.nz [216.100.154.173]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id LAA19502; Mon, 27 Sep 1999 11:59:11 +1200 Message-ID: <000801bf087b$1dd8a480$9431fea9@paul> Subject: Re: Calendar Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 11:58:55 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 From: "Paul Schmidt" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: "Paul Schmidt" , dq@dq.sf.org.nz Days adventuring is clearly easier for GM's and players. They know how long the adventure has taken and they know how much travel or training time remains. You can't get much more simple than that. If someone wants to aim for a particular date or event - fine go for it. But unless its me I'm not in the least bit interested and won't bother tracking the time as either a GM or a player - that's up to the person who wants to do it. Ans as far as wanting people to keep track of time by calendar in a general sense - this is one of those ideas that everyone can assent to becuase no one much is going to bother. Cheers Paul -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Sep 27 12:15:05 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id MAA10760; Mon, 27 Sep 1999 12:15:05 +1200 Received: from peace.com (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id MAA10756 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 1999 12:15:01 +1200 Message-ID: <37EEB6B2.ABFD04BB@peace.com> Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 12:13:38 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Calendar Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Kelsie wrote: > And people are always asking during a game what month it is, and what's > next, so someoone fossicks out a copy of the calendar... > 'Day x of adventure' is now so much easier to use than the calendar, > figure it out later, then realise you've missed a day of significance. The thing that I still am least happy about with the calendar is the names of the months, which are the biggest memory load, and too bland for my personal taste. They were supposed to be descriptive of either an activity (harvest) or a seasonal description (heat, breeze), similar to the activities or conditions depicted in a book of days. The names are also similar to the French revolutionary calendar -- as has been noted. I agree that memorizing 12 names and their order is a pain... I imagine that anyone familiar with the Jhereg books could tell you that there were a bunch of houses, but I also think that only a truly dedicated fan could name them all, and even then are unlikely to be able to recite the order. Other options would be to use the real world names (which I don't personally favour for game flavour reasons -- despite the ease of use), number them (easy but flavour low -- although that is what the Romans did -- although for this purpose numbering in a foreign language isn't quite the same thing, so I guess "number them is a foreign language" is another opion), use somthing with similar phonics to the real world (Dacambre, Janan, Marech) or starting with the same letter. As for days of siginificance and the modern calendar, just when is Lammas or Walpurgisnight or the Spring equinox? Who knows without looking it up -- and most calendars that I've seen don't list Walpurgisnight anyway... though if someone were to promote it as another Halloween/fancy dress/shopping excuse I imagine it could get into the standard "holidays" listing. :) > The difference in 'cognitive load' is sort of like that of trying to say > the alphabet forwards or backwards; between knowing and being able to > figure out. When I wrote "low cognitive load" I was referring to this calendar being simpler than many fantasy calendars I had seen, not lower load than using the modern calendar. I was preceeding from the premise -- perhaps incorrect -- that the modern calendar would not be being used because of its mudanity breaking suspension of disbelief. Cheers, Martin -- _/_/ Peace Software New Zealand Ltd Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com _/ Martin Dickson Fax : +64-9-373-0401 Analyst Phone: +64-9-373-0400 -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Sep 27 13:03:40 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id NAA10835; Mon, 27 Sep 1999 13:03:40 +1200 Received: from fclaklmr01.fcl.co.nz (mail.fcl.co.nz [203.98.14.148]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id NAA10832 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 1999 13:03:38 +1200 Received: from falaklex00.falum.co.nz ([10.8.1.28]) by fclaklmr01.fcl.co.nz (Post.Office MTA v3.5.1 release 219 ID# 0-0U10L2S100) with ESMTP id nz for ; Mon, 27 Sep 1999 12:50:45 +1200 Received: by falaklex00.fcl.co.nz with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Mon, 27 Sep 1999 12:52:18 +1200 Message-ID: <311B3C3DD32FD311B33900805F770A725FB2FD@falaklex00.fcl.co.nz> Subject: Calendar Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 12:52:12 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01BF0882.8BDF83E0" From: "Andrew Withy (FAL AKL)" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF0882.8BDF83E0 Content-Type: text/plain Regularity of the moon vs irregularity of names: When Lady Alexandra said "wedding on the first full moon of this quarter", I could say it was the 7th of the first month almost straight away, and with a little effort remember it was Thaw. The last full moon is on the 3rd of the third month ?Blossom?Fruit? of spring (28 days before the summer holiday, Samhain?/Beltane? on the "31st"). The moon works, the names take too much time for people without an oral tradition. The patterns mean that the numbers are available for those who think that way (try doing that with the real calendar - you'd need to have a PhD in astrophysics, right Michael W?). If you don't think that way (and there's no reason to want to), you can still look it up on last year's SGT (or next year's). The calendar is a method of accounting for days, it's allowed to be as exciting as accounting. It still beats "On the 63rd day, it rained again" to say "The first three days of Flood were really wet". If GMs use standard high/low days on the calendar more often, then players will start to remember them naturally, and foreshadowing starts to happen. At this moment, it can't be done, and dates need to be spelt out explicitly most of the time. A full moon on the night you plan to attack the shapechangers is going to be bad, and any way that a paranoid player can easily check in advance is desirable (without bothering the GM in mid-game). The calendar provides that for those who are moderately well-prepared. Carrying Tide & Moon tables for the real world is definitely over-preparation, an old SGT is reasonable. The new calendar isn't perfect, but works better when more GMs use it. Andrew ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF0882.8BDF83E0 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Calendar

Regularity of the moon vs irregularity = of names:
When Lady Alexandra said = "wedding on the first full moon of this quarter", I could say = it was the 7th of the first month almost straight away, and with a = little effort remember it was Thaw. The last full moon is on the 3rd of = the third month ?Blossom?Fruit? of spring (28 days before the summer = holiday, Samhain?/Beltane? on the "31st"). The moon works, = the names take too much time for people without an oral = tradition.

The patterns mean that the numbers are = available for those who think that way (try doing that with the real = calendar - you'd need to have a PhD in astrophysics, right Michael W?). = If you don't think that way (and there's no reason to want to), you can = still look it up on last year's SGT (or next year's). The calendar is a = method of accounting for days, it's allowed to be as exciting as = accounting. It still beats "On the 63rd day, it rained again" = to say "The first three days of Flood were really = wet".

If GMs use standard high/low days on = the calendar more often, then players will start to remember them = naturally, and foreshadowing starts to happen. At this moment, it can't = be done, and dates need to be spelt out explicitly most of the = time.

A full moon on the night you plan to = attack the shapechangers is going to be bad, and any way that a = paranoid player can easily check in advance is desirable (without = bothering the GM in mid-game). The calendar provides that for those who = are moderately well-prepared. Carrying Tide & Moon tables for the = real world is definitely over-preparation, an old SGT is = reasonable.

The new calendar isn't perfect, but = works better when more GMs use it.

Andrew

------_=_NextPart_001_01BF0882.8BDF83E0-- -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Sep 27 16:55:14 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id QAA11095; Mon, 27 Sep 1999 16:55:14 +1200 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id QAA11092 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 1999 16:55:12 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p297-tnt2.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.255.57]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id QAA29900; Mon, 27 Sep 1999 16:39:57 +1200 Subject: Re: Calendar Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 16:39:52 +1200 Message-ID: <01bf08a2$571ff6e0$39ff6dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Michael wrote: You miss the point that the new calander is easy to tabulate & requires no effort to LEARN; but if I do wish to memorise salient facts it only takes a few moments. Jim: No I didn't. I understood the point when it was first put. I just don't agree that it is less of a 'cognitive load' to learn a whole new calendar, however regular and conformist that calendar is. Michael: I have been in games under the old system where NO-ONE knew when the next full moon was; these days diaries do NOT automatically indicate when the phases of the moon appear; and of course none indicate the high holidays which have always been in our game -- so that is one forced to consult atleast one list of dates. Unless you're suggesting that the high holidays etc should be translated into modern dates which have the desired overtones? Well that would be a long and fruitless argument. Jim: I haven't said that I want that. And I have no opinion on whether or not it would be a long and fruitless argument. You seem to have already concluded that it would be. Jim: > That is, precisely, my point. The real calendar has overtones. The > Alusian one doesn't, unless the DM knows that an event that is important to > a player (players) occurs on a particular date(s). Alternatively, you could > publish significant dates, as George suggested. Again, the cognitive load > increases. We are confronted with a calendar that becomes more and more > difficult to keep track of. Michael: What's your point -- no high holidays? No days on which the evil forces try to make the most of it? etc etc Jim: My point, I would have thought, was transparently obvious. You are very unlikely to have dates that can foreshadow something to a player, unless the calendar the game reflects is one that is part of the communality of meaning of the participants. > It isn't enough for something to be simple, I think. It should be > better, as well. The only thing the Alusian calendar does well is let you > calculate your time expenditure whilst on adventure, Ranking or laying about > in whatever den of iniquity takes your fancy. Michael: "ONLY thing" -- come off it Jim. Besides it's not even the major advantage -- although it is much easier to calcluate weeks expended & days left over, than our current post-Renaissance calendar You have totally ingnore several other advantages. My favourite would be knowing the phases of the moon, & feeling confortable about working the all implications of moon-phases into the campaign. I dislike inconsistencies in my own GMing, let alone unnecessary clashes with other adventures. Jim: I am unaware of any other advantages. You have only listed the advantage of knowing what phase of the moon it is. Frankly, Michael, big deal. > It is so regular it has the appearance of a spreadsheet, Michael: As I pointed out before, the moon should be sufficiently regular. Indeed the cycle of the moon is a key element to virtually all pre-Renaissance cultures; although less important today to our civilization. Jim: Why? Does it need to be? This is a magical world. It doesn't need to be anything other that what we want. The moon is as regular or as irregular as we choose to make it. That aside, the point is pretty irrelevant, I think. It doesn't matter to me whether you think you can set your watch by the moon. I prefer the idea of it as a celestial object that is somehow unaccountable. I like that. You appear to like something different. More power to you. > and it lacks a > sense of dynamism. It doesn't FEEL like a calendar that people have lived > through...It most reminds me of the French Revolutionary calendar. They > abandoned that one, too. Michael: Which they abandonned for purely political reasons; not because it didn't work -- admittedly as poorly as any modern real-world calendar does. Jim: Whatever their reasons for abandoning it, abandon it they did. > You may not have an emotional connection to the holiday...At least, I > hope you don't, but you know what it's about, and framed within the context > of the right game, I suggest to you that it would have more impact on you > than televised images of costumed, sweet-smeared infants sadly lacking in > manners. > Therefore, if you came across the date in a game, then it would be a > legitimate incidence of foreshadowing, which is to say, it is a hint about > something that is to come. Allowing players to legitimately use this > information is important, because it means that the DM doesn't have to tell > them explicitly. It joins the player more firmly to the game if they can > bring something they know to the story and have it validated. Michael: Well if you feel like that, GM all your games off-plane and warn charaters to pay attention to out-of-game knowledge. Jim: I choose to limit my DMing on Alusia to a bare minimum. There are a number of reasons. 1) So much of the background of the world has been already filled in. If you like, it is hard to make your mark on the world. Other people have been there before me. 2) It is a world wherein castles and walls have no meaning, and I like the idea of these places. 3) It is impossible to get accurate historical information. For example, I once DMed a party of players in an area a fair distance due North of the Gatarr Depression. I spoke to the person who was in charge of the map, and I was informed that no-one had been there in ages. I.e., no players had been there for over 7 real years. Cool, I thought, I'll run this game as a new place for the players to explore. After all, one of the players was an intrepid explorer. Seven weeks into the game, 3 players tell me that they had been within 50 miles of this place, and they didn't recall there being a mountain range, not to mention their surprise at finding a semi-active volcano quietly smoking up the neighbourhood. The calendar is another reason not to bother with Alusia. Not a big one, mind you. But it certainly doesn't attract me. I can't imagine that anyone is attracted by it. Present company excepted, of course. Michael: But I think it is stupid to use things which have modern equivalences; if such elements are used they should atleast be in sufficient disguise that players can politely pretend not to recognise them. I enjoy it at as GM when the player discretely signals that they have got a particular reference; and then veils their words with double-entendre that at face value is entirely in character. Jim: So do I. I think it's entertaining, and it's worth experience points. On the other hand, I don't think it's the most important part of roleplaying. Roleplaying is about sharing a dynamic, interactive story. Whether or not there are game elements that are outside of the genre have to be balanced against ease of play, say, or richness of conceit. I don't think that the 'Alusian' calendar is rich in conceit or provides for ease of play. I think the modern calendar does. Michael: Is it better role-playing to recognise the dates October 31st or December 25th; or is it better to ignore them because what it brings to the game is the modern world, contrary to the mood of our particular fantasy genre. [Aside: not that I can, or want to, define what *is* in the correct mood; I merely point out what is foreign]. Modern dates in "Call of Cthulu"? --F ine, excellent. In DQ-- no thanks. Jim: Then you don't think we should be working toward Millennial events, for example? Michael: You said above (although I cut it out) you hadn't decided on Christmas. Tough, you've automatically included it. unless you want to increase the cognitive load by listing for player what they should or shouldn't recognise. And even if you did, such a bastardised is too easliy perceived as lack of effort by the GM and game-weakening. Jim: No, not true. One can include or not include a date, as a DM wishes. For some DMs, maybe Christmas is a valuable date. Maybe it isn't for others. The 'Alusian' calendar tells the DM they don't have a choice. You don't need to tell players that a date is important. If a player mentions to the DM that tomorrow would be the 25th of December, and asks if this important, the DM has the freedom to respond in any way they see fit. > Of course you can generate tension in other ways, but you cannot > foreshadow merely using a date, unless 1) the date has some known game > relevance to all of the players, or 2) the DM knows that a particular date > is important to a particular character. > The problem with point 1) is that the more important dates you have, the > harder the calendar becomes to administer and the problem with point 2) is > that it's a multi-DM environment and it's hard to know what dates are > important to all of the players. Michael: Very true. I think our Alusian calender easily accomodates such, without the players think of the other dates we don't want in the game. I want players to think of a particular day as being the soltice; not 3 or 4 days before christmas. Jim: I'm glad you think that way, Michael. Now, tell me how you're going to achieve this tension gathering, without simply telling players that a particular date is important. After all, the solstices and equinoxes occur about 2 weeks before the end of the game session... Jim: Neither, really, reduces the effect of that happening. A player > that will want to check out something on one calendar will want to check out > the same thing on another. I'm inclined to believe that they will have more > things to check out with the Alusian calendar, than they will the real one. Michael: Ah! Here we have a difference of opinion, or possibly fact. I know that the player will have more need to consult the modern real calendar that with the Alusian one -- that was my non-unique experience, *especially* when I GMed, not to mention the difficult of first finding a Modern calendar or diary which had what I wanted on it. Jim: And you can't just make it up? Why? What happened to your imagination? Michael: [let's skip the part where I belabour how important the lunar cycle was for pre-modern societies, since you seem unprepared or unable to concede it.] Jim: I agree with you, that is what the lunar cycle was used for. I don't care, however. It seems to me to offer a richer conceit that the moon is a mysterious celestial object, than a slide ruler from the sky. Jim -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Sep 27 17:14:25 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id RAA11163; Mon, 27 Sep 1999 17:14:25 +1200 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id RAA11160 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 1999 17:14:24 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p297-tnt2.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.255.57]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id QAA19200 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 1999 16:59:10 +1200 Subject: Re: Calendar Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 16:59:08 +1200 Message-ID: <01bf08a5$07e77aa0$39ff6dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0026_01BF0909.9D1C5AA0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01BF0909.9D1C5AA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Andrew wrote: If GMs use standard high/low days on the calendar more often, then = players will start to remember them naturally, and foreshadowing starts = to happen. At this moment, it can't be done, and dates need to be spelt = out explicitly most of the time. Jim: =20 Foreshadowing cannot happen unless you have a shared body of = knowledge. In other words, I cannot foreshadow, until I know what dates = have meaning to a player. It is meaningless to foreshadow something when = a player is completely ignorant of the allusion. =20 If, on the other hand, important dates are established by act of = writ, then the ease of use of the calendar is compromised. Players have = to learn that it is an important date. So, until that happens, the date = is not actually foreshadowable. On top of anything else, new players = have no chance of discovering that such a date is important before they = encounter it. Which is to say that the calendar provides no shared = community of meaning outside the game. =20 Jim =20 =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01BF0909.9D1C5AA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Calendar
Andrew wrote:
If GMs use=20 standard high/low days on the calendar more often, then players will = start=20 to remember them naturally, and foreshadowing starts to happen. At = this=20 moment, it can't be done, and dates need to be spelt out explicitly = most of=20 the time.

Jim:

Foreshadowing cannot happen unless you have a = shared body of=20 knowledge. In other words, I cannot foreshadow, until I know what = dates have=20 meaning to a player. It is meaningless to foreshadow something = when  a=20 player is completely ignorant of the allusion.

If, on the other hand, important dates are = established by=20 act of writ, then the ease of use of the calendar is compromised. = Players=20 have to learn that it is an important date. So, until that happens, = the date=20 is not actually foreshadowable. On top of anything else, new players = have no=20 chance of discovering that such a date is important before they = encounter=20 it. Which is to say that the calendar provides no shared community = of=20 meaning outside the game.

Jim

 

------=_NextPart_000_0026_01BF0909.9D1C5AA0-- -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Sep 27 19:35:22 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id TAA11344; Mon, 27 Sep 1999 19:35:22 +1200 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id TAA11341 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 1999 19:35:21 +1200 Received: from dworkin (p184-tnt7.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.203.184]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id TAA13877 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 1999 19:20:03 +1200 Message-ID: <002801bf0252$00e2ca60$4301a8c0@dworkin.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: Calendar Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 15:49:38 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0023_01BF02B6.949EC600" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 From: "Dworkin" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01BF02B6.949EC600 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To them all, I found the new calender good because it gave one of my characters (no = prizes for guessing who) the desire to stage a violent revolution = against the new Western Kingdom. All in aid of reinstating the old = calender, getting back 7 days (an entire week) and being able to work = out their birthday and thus how old they were. To this individual it = seemed simpler than learning some new system. There was no revolution = but it did add a new dimension to what actually is some untidy = scrawlings on a piece of paper. A few points 1) The subtle dig at an adventure idea. 2) This is a game. Get with the ritual guys. 3) 25,781 angels can dance on the head of a pin. Unless of course one of = them is Michael, in which case three are shoved off. William the loony. ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01BF02B6.949EC600 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Calendar
To them all,
 
I found the new calender good = because it gave=20 one of my characters (no prizes for guessing who) the desire to stage a = violent=20 revolution against the new Western Kingdom. All in aid of reinstating = the old=20 calender, getting back 7 days (an entire week) and being able to work = out their=20 birthday and thus how old they were. To this individual it seemed = simpler than=20 learning some new system. There was no revolution but it did add a new = dimension=20 to what actually is some untidy scrawlings on a piece of = paper.
 
A few points
 
1) The subtle dig at an adventure idea.
2) This is a game. Get with the ritual = guys.
3) 25,781 angels can dance on the head of a pin. = Unless of=20 course one of them is Michael, in which case three are shoved = off.
 
William the loony.
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_0023_01BF02B6.949EC600-- -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Sep 27 20:23:53 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id UAA11399; Mon, 27 Sep 1999 20:23:53 +1200 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id UAA11396 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 1999 20:23:51 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p90-tnt7.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.203.90]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id UAA18665 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 1999 20:08:34 +1200 Subject: Re: Calendar Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 20:08:35 +1200 Message-ID: <01bf08bf$7f7df480$LocalHost@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001D_01BF0924.14B2D480" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01BF0924.14B2D480 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable William wrote: =20 A few points =20 1) The subtle dig at an adventure idea. =20 What? Went so far over my head, I didn't even hear the wings = flap.... Jim. =20 ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01BF0924.14B2D480 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Calendar
 
William wrote:
 
A few points
 
1) The subtle dig at an adventure = idea.
 
What? Went so far over my head, I didn't even = hear the=20 wings flap....
Jim. 
 
------=_NextPart_000_001D_01BF0924.14B2D480-- -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Sep 27 20:29:46 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id UAA11421; Mon, 27 Sep 1999 20:29:46 +1200 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id UAA11418 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 1999 20:29:45 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p90-tnt7.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.203.90]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id UAA16770 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 1999 20:14:26 +1200 Subject: Fw: Calendar Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 20:14:27 +1200 Message-ID: <01bf08c0$51146f60$LocalHost@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz -----Original Message----- From: Jim Arona To: m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz Date: Monday, 27 September 1999 20:07 Subject: Re: Calendar >Jim wrote: >> I am unaware of any other advantages. You have only listed the >> advantage of knowing what phase of the moon it is. Frankly, Michael, >> big deal. > >Michael wrote: >Yes it is a big deal: not just for lycanthropy and undead etc >-- possibly the two biggest character concerns (less for themselves, >perhaps, but definitely for the effectiveness of their opponents). > >Jim: > Then, tell a player what the state of the moon is. So what if it isn't >accurate. If there was an inconsistency in the world, because the phases >were out of sinch with another player's apprehension of the lunar cycle, >then I'd simply say that the moon is an inconstant celestial body, so >inconstant as to show different faces at different places. > >Michael: >For the ordinary peasant & nobles the moon is crucial for the >amount× of natural visibility; for normal tides; not to mention >superstitions/habits such as planting & fishing cycles. > >Jim: >So what? > >Michael: >The facts >remain that Alusian Calendar, compared to the real-life calendar, is: > >#1 easier to use -- I find that one brief look keeps me right > >Good for you. I don't like it. I think it's stink. > >#2 more relevant -- phases of moon obvious to players > >You've made the point before. It's the only thing you seem to be able to >point to that is of value to players. I disagree. If I'm running a game, and >the phases of the moon are important to the game, then the phases of the >moon are what I say they are. Not what some piece of paper says they are. > >#3 requires less "unlearning" -- e.g no dates are relevant; rather >than your argument that 31st Oct has "foreshadowing" (& presumably 1 >May) but Christmas doesn't (nor presumably Labour day, nor 1st >April, nor Easter) > >Well, frankly I don't care. In the UK, the 1st of May is Labour Day. Some >holidays are meaningless to a medieval world, and that's fine. As players >ask about them, you can clear them up. To approach the same method from the >opposite end, you have to tell the player what all the holidays are (meaning >that they are devoid of associated meaning). On the other hand, you could >just let the players ask the questions as the issues arise. They acquire the >information at a speed that they are comfortable with. > >#4 has no boring out-of-game feel or confusion -- e.g. if >today is the 27th Sept real date, but it's 29th Sept in-game-date; >etc etc) > >That has got to be a trivial issue. The only thing that might happen is that >the players might be surprised at the closeness of the game date to the real >date. Again, so what? > >#5 requires no regular *updating*, *additional* tabulating, or annual >replacement. > >And lacks any sense of dynamism. > >Michael: >If you want the Alusian moon to be irregular then waste time at a >Gods meeting suggesting it (& volunteering to prepare the lunar >tables for other players - to keep consistency - specifying how it >it could gets faster/slower, retrograde, noticably larger, whatever). > >Jim: >I think you are under the impression that I think the moon ought to behave >in a different method to the one we're used to. I don't. I think that the >moon should behave exactly as a DM feels that body should behave, and we >should not worry about how consistent or inconsistent that is. When I say >that I think the idea that the moon is inconstant is a good one, I mean that >it is inconstant between games. Not necessarily that it is inconstant within >a story, although I can imagine that being kind of cool, tool. > >> > and it lacks a >> > sense of dynamism. It doesn't FEEL like a calendar that people have >lived >> > through...It most reminds me of the French Revolutionary calendar. They >> > abandoned that one, too. >> >> Michael: >> Which they abandonned for purely political reasons; not because it >> didn't work -- admittedly as poorly as any modern real-world >> calendar does. >> >> Jim: >> Whatever their reasons for abandoning it, abandon it they did. > >Don't be obtuse. If the fact it WAS abandonned, rather than >maintained, has relevancy to your argument, then the reason is WHY >it was abandonned it must be considered. > >Drivel.I made a comment about the calendar being abandoned. Not about why it >was abandoned, merely that it is no longer a living calendar. If the reasons >for its abandonment were political, what of it? I'm sure that for the people >that were using it did all the things you can expect of a calendar. There >were undoubtedly economic factors that had an impact, since the difference >in dates would have made for an extra level of complexity for merchants >trading with France. > >> Michael: >> Is it better role-playing to recognise the dates October 31st or >> December 25th; or is it better to ignore them because what it brings >> to the game is the modern world, contrary to the mood of our >> particular fantasy genre. [Aside: not that I can, or want to, define >> what *is* in the correct mood; I merely point out what is foreign]. >> Modern dates in "Call of Cthulu"? --F ine, excellent. In DQ-- no >> thanks. >> >> Jim: >> Then you don't think we should be working toward Millennial events, for >> example? > >Michael: >Of course I do; It's a consequence of counting the YEARS from some >cataclysmic event. Pity that it almost coincides with real-time; but >that is one of those historical decisions we need to live with. > > >Jim: >We chose to make the date as contemporaneous with the Y2K as we could, >because we thought it would be good. I don't recall you raising objections >to it at the time. At least, not these objections. I would have remembered >these objections. I'm pretty sure if I'd heard these, I'd have written them >down. > >> Michael: >> You said above (although I cut it out) you hadn't decided on >> Christmas. Tough, you've automatically included it. unless you want >> to increase the cognitive load by listing for player what they should >> or shouldn't recognise. And even if you did, such a bastardised is >> too easliy perceived as lack of effort by the GM and game-weakening. >> >> Jim: >> No, not true. One can include or not include a date, as a DM wishes. For >> some DMs, maybe Christmas is a valuable date. Maybe it isn't for others. >The >> 'Alusian' calendar tells the DM they don't have a choice. > >Michael: >Jim, Do you want us to use the Real calendar, so that you can foreshadow >31/10. > > Yes, I do. > >Michael: > Then you are including many other dates with signifigance. > >Why? > >Michael: >Or else you are expecting players to remember one and forget six >others. > >No, that's not the case. If I mention a date of significance (intentionally, >or by accident), and a player picks up on it, then I can confirm or deny >that it is a date of significance. I have the choice of making that day >important to my story. > >Michael: > If you want hallowe'en: then call the DAY that; > >That's exactly what I mean, Michael. I can't subtly introduce that day, or >another day of some other significance. I HAVE to tell them. You have >removed a colour from my palette when you say that I can only introduce a >date as baldly as that. >This is not to say that I want to introduce dates only, or even very often >in some kind of subtle fashion. But, I do like doing it on occasion. It >creates an interesting pressure. > >Michael: > fill it with >what you want to GM; let the party amuse you as you will -- but >"October 31" where's the poetry in that? > >The poetry, Michael, as I'm sure you're aware, is in the way it allows you >to allude to. Poetry doesn't have to be sonorous. It's about shared meaning, >and communicating on multiple levels. > > > >> You don't need to tell players that a date is important. If a player >> mentions to the DM that tomorrow would be the 25th of December, and asks >if >> this important, the DM has the freedom to respond in any way they see fit. > >Michael: >Is this foreshadowing or not? Not that I care, but you must see the >inconsistency. > >What do you think foreshadowing is, Michael? >When you foreshadow something, you give it a significance that conveys a >sense of added meaning at a point later on in the story. It is not a clue. >It is there to signpost that something is important, not to provide >information. Prophecies are the most common form of foreshadowing, where >they provide bugger all useful information, but when the story is laid out >before the players, allows them to sensibly say 'O, of course...What else >could it have been...' >If a player says to me that the game tomorrow would be the 25th of December, >and Christmas is either not important to the game, or would in fact be >counterproductive to the story, then I tell them that it isn't significant >to the story. Then, we move on to other game matters. > >> Michael: >> Very true. I think our Alusian calender easily accomodates such, >> without the players think of the other dates we don't want in the >> game. I want players to think of a particular day as being >> the soltice; not 3 or 4 days before christmas. >> >> Jim: >> I'm glad you think that way, Michael. Now, tell me how you're going to >> achieve this tension gathering, without simply telling players that a >> particular date is important. After all, the solstices and equinoxes occur >> about 2 weeks before the end of the game session... > >Michael: >How are you going to tell them the difference between a sabre and an >estoc? By putting it into the appropriate section of the rules. >Those are things that effect the setting into which we the pour our >NPCs other non-rule items. By all means you MUST highlight/state >the fact, it if it's relevant to this particular adventure, that ten >days out will be the Festival of petunias (or whatever) -- If not a >fixed game convention, it would atleast be polite. If an upcoming >date has particular relevance to, say, the party's necromancer, you >DONT have to remind them; the Necro will (one way or the other) > >Jim: >You're not really gathering tension, though, are you? You're just loading a >lot of dates into the calendar, and saying that it will generate tension. It >doesn't. These things have to have meaning before they can generate tension. >Whereas the current calendar has plenty of dates in it that we can associate >with meaning. The work has already been done. > > > >> Jim: >> And you can't just make it up? Why? What happened to your imagination? > >Michael: >Because > >#1) I don't want to piss off the players with lycanthropic concerns >/ planning night manouevers/ whatever that, having made up the fact >(two gaming nights ago) that the full moon was NEXT friday, say, but >that this session I forgot what was obviously an irrelevant detail >and throw the player out by 2 or 3 weeks. > >Jim: >Well, keep notes, then, if that's important to you. It generally isn't that >important to me. If a player has put together a cunning plan, and not told >me that they want to take advantage of the dark of the moon, then it's not >that cunning a plan. I need to know what precautions they're taking, so I >can sensibly award ep. I mean, if a player puts together a cunning plan, >without telling me the reason they're doing it is so they won't be seen in >the dark, then I'll just think they lucked out, rather than thought it >through. Lucky PCs are just lucky...You don't get ep for being lucky. > >Michael: >#2) If I have spectres, say, then I want to know the dates because >that will effect the NPC's agenda. The spectres do not jump on the >party because that's what I rolled as wandering monsters [and by the >way folks, there's a full moon in the sky], but because the party >have *interacted* with their envorinment -- may be they've been >stupid, or clever, or deliberately brave, but that is the >contribution that *they* bring to the engagement. > >Jim: > If I want to use spectres, then I let players know what state the moon >is in. I don't tell them the date. Whatever else is happening, if I want the >players to encounter the spectres, then they will encounter them, regardless >of the date. I don't write my story around the phase of the moon. I write >the phase of the moon around my story. > > >Finally Jim. Label things as you wish. If it pleases you to call >the Alusian Calendar "additional cognitive load," do so. > >Well, Michael, it's not about labels, it's about DMing, and world design. If >you want to typify my response as being about labelling, feel free. You will >have missed the point, however. >And, if it pleases you to call the Alusian 'lesser cognitive load', get >stuck in. You'd be pretty much on your own, though. > > >Jim. > -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers --