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Subject: Re: Greaters
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Another option is to change the blanket effect of Enchantment so that it 
only effects specific areas eg.
Duration:
Rank 
0 - 4   rank weeks (min 1)
5-19    rank months
20      2 years

Bonus on die rolls of 1 + 1 /rank

effecting one of these (mutually exclusive) ability areas 
1) Statistic Checks and Magic Resistence
2) Non-combat Skills 
3) Combat Skills
3) Magical Abilities


This still leaves us with a powerful ritual but removes some of the 
vanilla result and gives characters the oportunity to boost their 
specialist area.  (I can see people choosing not to have max duration on 
this spell).

Rosemary

Mark Wrote:
My first stab at a suggested solution would be something like - greaters
give 1+1/3 ranks (ie max 8%) with rank twenty being 1 year duration, rank
12-19 being 3 months, 6-11 1 month etc. Cost/em to be taken down
accordingly. Also all base chances for all special spells and rituals 
along
with magic resistence are all increased  by  5 - 10% (as beginning
characters are supposed to be able to cast generals and they tend to have
reasonable base chances) .

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<br><font size=2><tt>Another option is to change the blanket effect of Enchantment so that it only effects specific areas eg.</tt></font>
<br><font size=2><tt>Duration:</tt></font>
<br><font size=2><tt>Rank </tt></font>
<br><font size=2><tt>0 - 4 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;rank weeks (min 1)</tt></font>
<br><font size=2><tt>5-19 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;rank months</tt></font>
<br><font size=2><tt>20 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;2 years</tt></font>
<br>
<br><font size=2><tt>Bonus on die rolls of 1 + 1 /rank</tt></font>
<br>
<br><font size=2><tt>effecting one of these (mutually exclusive) ability areas </tt></font>
<br><font size=2><tt>1) Statistic Checks and Magic Resistence</tt></font>
<br><font size=2><tt>2) Non-combat Skills </tt></font>
<br><font size=2><tt>3) Combat Skills</tt></font>
<br><font size=2><tt>3) Magical Abilities</tt></font>
<br>
<br>
<br><font size=2><tt>This still leaves us with a powerful ritual but removes some of the vanilla result and gives characters the oportunity to boost their specialist area. &nbsp;(I can see people choosing not to have max duration on this spell).</tt></font>
<br>
<br><font size=2><tt>Rosemary</tt></font>
<br>
<br><font size=2><tt>Mark Wrote:</tt></font>
<br><font size=2><tt>My first stab at a suggested solution would be something like - greaters<br>
give 1+1/3 ranks (ie max 8%) with rank twenty being 1 year duration, rank<br>
12-19 being 3 months, 6-11 1 month etc. Cost/em to be taken down<br>
accordingly. Also all base chances for all special spells and rituals along<br>
with magic resistence are all increased &nbsp;by &nbsp;5 - 10% (as beginning<br>
characters are supposed to be able to cast generals and they tend to have<br>
reasonable base chances) .<br>
</tt></font>
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From: Martin Dickson <martind@peace.com>
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<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
"Andrew Withy (FAL AKL)" wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE><font face="Arial"><font color="#0000FF"><font size=-1>Should
we have another shot at sorting out greaters - I'm personally keen on +1/2
Ranks on one of MR, spells BC, weapon BC or stats, but removal of the ability
from the game isn't that far behind...</font></font></font>
<p><font face="Arial"><font color="#0000FF"><font size=-1>Last time we
had a go, I think it got shunted sideways by some quick maneouvering by
a minority.</font></font></font>
<p><font face="Arial"><font color="#0000FF"><font size=-1>Once more into
the breach...</font></font></font></blockquote>
Hmmm... "stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood, disguise fair nature
with hard-favour'd rage; then lend the eye a terrible aspect...&nbsp; set
the teeth and stretch the nostril wide, hold hard the breath and bend up
every spirit...&nbsp;&nbsp; OK... I feel about ready to deal with GE again.
<p>Since people are offering alternatives and formulae...
<p>Suggestion to change the effects of the Ritual Of Greater Enchantment
as follows:
<p>1 + 1/2 Ranks to be added to one of the following areas:
<p>Strike Chances (weapon strike chances)
<br>Magic BC (talents, spells, rituals)
<br>Non-Magic BC (skills, attribute checks)
<br>Magic Resistance.
<p>Maximum duration at top rank to be 1 year.&nbsp; Cost to be proportionally
reduced... but not so much as to make them an automatic choice.
<p>Cheers,
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
Martin
<p>--
<p>&nbsp;_/_/&nbsp; Peace Software New Zealand Ltd&nbsp;&nbsp; Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com
<br>_/&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Martin Dickson&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
Fax&nbsp; : +64-9-373-0401
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Analyst&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
Phone: +64-9-373-0400
<br>&nbsp;</html>


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<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
<body bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
Jim Arona wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>
<blockquote 
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><font color="#000000"><font size=-1>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
For example, I would prefer it if an Enchantment allowed a player to have
a finite, Rank controlled number of alternative rolls, when it comes to
spell casting. This avoids the double casting bonus that accrues to Investment,
where a mage with an Enchantment can invest spells with a permanently enchanted
Cast Chance.</font></font></blockquote>
</blockquote>
The double dipping on GE with investeds should not be happening now.&nbsp;
Certainly a mage with GE could logically create items with the GE bonus
built into the cast chance -- but the person using the invested should
not get to add their GE as well.&nbsp; This would be a very clear stacking
violation.&nbsp; Of course, GMs (and players) would have to ensure that
the description of the invested item they are creating clearly states what
bonuses if any went into the final BC.
<p>There is also an argument that one should never gain a GE bonus when
triggering anyway.&nbsp; GE adds to the chance of a character performing
an action.&nbsp; The chance of triggering an invested item is automatic...
its just that the chance of the spell in it being effective is usually
less than 100%.&nbsp; A charge is lost either way.&nbsp; The triggering
worked... the spell did not.
<p>Cheers,
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
Martin
<p>--
<p>&nbsp;_/_/&nbsp; Peace Software New Zealand Ltd&nbsp;&nbsp; Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com
<br>_/&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Martin Dickson&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
Fax&nbsp; : +64-9-373-0401
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Analyst&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
Phone: +64-9-373-0400
<br>&nbsp;
</body>
</html>


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Martin Dickson wrote:

> There is also an argument that one should never gain a GE bonus when
> triggering anyway.  GE adds to the chance of a character performing an
> action.  The chance of triggering an invested item is automatic... its
> just that the chance of the spell in it being effective is usually
> less than 100%.  A charge is lost either way.  The triggering
> worked... the spell did not.

The counterargument is that GE increases luck - in which case the
investor does not get their GE bonus and the triggerer does. In any
case, it should be one or the other, not both, and the rules should
clearly state which. Using the investor's GE feels more right to me.



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    From: Jason Saggers <psyclone@darknight.gen.nz>
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I have only been GM'ing dq for a short amount of time, but even I have
seen the effects of High Ranked Greaters.

Personally I believe the Ritual Short Read as follows (wording may need
changing)

--
Duration : 0 + 2 weeks/rank (Rank 20 = 52 weeks)
EM : 250 (Currently 125)
Base Chance : 40% + 3/rank (Current 80% + 1 /rank)
Target: Entity
Time Taken: 1 hour + 20 min / 3 effective ranks 
Materials: Black Myrrh
Material Cost: 500 + 300/rank (Means at Rank 20 Cost 6500 SP)

Effect:

May be cast to effect 1 of the following

	a)  Spell Base Chance
	b)  Weapon BC - Dosent Not effect Defense
	c)  Skill Base Chance
	d)  MR

To give an allowed bonuses of 1 + 1/3 Ranks (Rank 20 - 10%).
This bonuses to be applied ether as a bonuses or a negative (decided by
the Adept at time of casting.

Can be removed by a successfull application of Remove Curse as if it was a
Minor Curse.
--

This may not be completely accurate but seems to reflect most of the
attitudes that is represented on the list, and I beleve makes a much more
balanced Ritual and still useful and worth buying learning. And is
signifantly better than buying a lesser.


Jason Saggers



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Jason Wrote:
--
Duration : 0 + 2 weeks/rank (Rank 20 = 52 weeks)
EM : 250 (Currently 125)
Base Chance : 40% + 3/rank (Current 80% + 1 /rank)
Target: Entity
Time Taken: 1 hour + 20 min / 3 effective ranks
Materials: Black Myrrh
Material Cost: 500 + 300/rank (Means at Rank 20 Cost 6500 SP)

Effect:

May be cast to effect 1 of the following

        a)  Spell Base Chance
        b)  Weapon BC - Dosent Not effect Defense
        c)  Skill Base Chance
        d)  MR

To give an allowed bonuses of 1 + 1/3 Ranks (Rank 20 - 10%).
This bonuses to be applied ether as a bonuses or a negative (decided by
the Adept at time of casting.

Can be removed by a successfull application of Remove Curse as if it was a
Minor Curse.
--

1) GE is ALWAYS a bonus to a success CHANCE, not a  modifier to a die 
ROLL.  We do NOT want people modifiying their die roll by 10 (or whatever 
the number is).  This is what happens with Death Aspect and is OTT in 
effect. 

2) Defence is never effected by GE because it is a fixed number deducted 
from someone else's strike chance, not a die roll.

3) What about other abilities that produce success chances, eg stat 
checks, talents, rituals, et al.

4) I don't actually mind the +20; I just object to it being permanent. 
Currently once you've got one, you forget about it until you die.  I think 
I'd prefer to keep the bonus at 1 + 1/rank given the reduce effects.

5) I like the duration, SC , time taken and I think the price is about 
right per point of bonus.

6) I like it being a minor curse and the wording of the last sentence 
should be something like that used in Wicca . 'The effect of this ritual 
is a minor curse (blessing) and may be removed by the Remove Curse 
ritual.'

Rosemary
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<br><font size=2><tt>Jason Wrote:</tt></font>
<br><font size=2><tt>--<br>
Duration : 0 + 2 weeks/rank (Rank 20 = 52 weeks)<br>
EM : 250 (Currently 125)<br>
Base Chance : 40% + 3/rank (Current 80% + 1 /rank)<br>
Target: Entity<br>
Time Taken: 1 hour + 20 min / 3 effective ranks<br>
Materials: Black Myrrh<br>
Material Cost: 500 + 300/rank (Means at Rank 20 Cost 6500 SP)<br>
</tt></font>
<br><font size=2><tt>Effect:<br>
</tt></font>
<br><font size=2><tt>May be cast to effect 1 of the following<br>
</tt></font>
<br><font size=2><tt>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; a) &nbsp;Spell Base Chance<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;b) &nbsp;Weapon BC - Dosent Not effect Defense<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;c) &nbsp;Skill Base Chance<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;d) &nbsp;MR<br>
</tt></font>
<br><font size=2><tt>To give an allowed bonuses of 1 + 1/3 Ranks (Rank 20 - 10%).<br>
This bonuses to be applied ether as a bonuses or a negative (decided by<br>
the Adept at time of casting.<br>
</tt></font>
<br><font size=2><tt>Can be removed by a successfull application of Remove Curse as if it was a<br>
Minor Curse.<br>
--<br>
</tt></font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">1) GE is ALWAYS a bonus to a success CHANCE, not a &nbsp;modifier to a die ROLL. &nbsp;We do NOT want people modifiying their die roll by 10 (or whatever the number is). &nbsp;This is what happens with Death Aspect and is OTT in effect. </font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">2) Defence is never effected by GE because it is a fixed number deducted from someone else's strike chance, not a die roll.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">3) What about other abilities that produce success chances, eg stat checks, talents, rituals, et al.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">4) I don't actually mind the +20; I just object to it being permanent. &nbsp;Currently once you've got one, you forget about it until you die. &nbsp;I think I'd prefer to keep the bonus at 1 + 1/rank given the reduce effects.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">5) I like the duration, SC , time taken and I think the price is about right per point of bonus.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">6) I like it being a minor curse and the wording of the last sentence should be something like that used in Wicca . 'The effect of this ritual is a minor curse (blessing) and may be removed by the Remove Curse ritual.'</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Rosemary</font>
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From: Michael Woodhams <michaelw@peace.com>
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I think this goes too far: on the weakening side you have
* doubled the EM
* Decreased the BC (by 20% for someone at rank 10)
* increased the time taken
* Decreased the percentage bonus by almost a factor of 3
* Decreased the rolls the bonus applies to by about a factor of 4

On the strengthening side you have
* slightly decreased the monetary cost (probably more than counteracted by
the increased chance of failing the ritual at medium rank)
* increased the duration so at medium rank it can last two or three
adventures.

The only change I specifically object to is the time taken - this is a
needless complication, and I think would be the only ritual that takes longer
at high rank. However, the combination is majorly depowering in many
different ways - perhaps just one or two of these depowerings?

The EM is pretty unimportant (unless it goes really high) - time is the
principle limiting factor on ranking anyhow. My tendancy would be to leave it
alone to avoid the unfairness of some people having got to rank it cheap and
others having to pay more, but I have not strong position on this.

I like the general idea of getting to chose where you put your bonuses - it
increases differentiation between characters - e.g. the fighters get to shine
more in fighting than the fighter-mages, because they have put their GE into
strike chances, whereas the F-Ms are likely to have put it into magic BCs.

Within limits, more choice is better: how about you get a bonus of 1+1/2
ranks to *two* categories or 1+2/3 ranks to *one* category? (Also - what
category, if any, do stat checks such as stun recovery fall into?)

With this level of depowering, I would decrease the price much more - say to
around 100sp/rank.

Michael W.


owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz wrote:

> I have only been GM'ing dq for a short amount of time, but even I have
> seen the effects of High Ranked Greaters.
>
> Personally I believe the Ritual Short Read as follows (wording may need
> changing)
>
> --
> Duration : 0 + 2 weeks/rank (Rank 20 = 52 weeks)
> EM : 250 (Currently 125)
> Base Chance : 40% + 3/rank (Current 80% + 1 /rank)
> Target: Entity
> Time Taken: 1 hour + 20 min / 3 effective ranks
> Materials: Black Myrrh
> Material Cost: 500 + 300/rank (Means at Rank 20 Cost 6500 SP)
>
> Effect:
>
> May be cast to effect 1 of the following
>
>         a)  Spell Base Chance
>         b)  Weapon BC - Dosent Not effect Defense
>         c)  Skill Base Chance
>         d)  MR
>
> To give an allowed bonuses of 1 + 1/3 Ranks (Rank 20 - 10%).
> This bonuses to be applied ether as a bonuses or a negative (decided by
> the Adept at time of casting.
>
> Can be removed by a successfull application of Remove Curse as if it was a
> Minor Curse.
> --
>
> This may not be completely accurate but seems to reflect most of the
> attitudes that is represented on the list, and I beleve makes a much more
> balanced Ritual and still useful and worth buying learning. And is
> signifantly better than buying a lesser.
>
> Jason Saggers
>
>     -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers --

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From: Michael Woodhams <michaelw@peace.com>
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<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
RMansfield@aj.co.nz wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE><font face="sans-serif"><font size=-1>3) What about
other abilities that produce success chances, eg stat checks, talents,
rituals, et al.</font></font></blockquote>
It makes sense to lump college talents and rituals in the 'magic BC' basket.
We need to be careful that racial talents (e.g. Elven Witchsight)&nbsp;don't
fall through the cracks.
<br>&nbsp;</html>

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> Personally I believe the Ritual Short Read as follows (wording may need
> changing)
>
> --
> Duration : 0 + 2 weeks/rank (Rank 20 = 52 weeks)

It is usual to have _some_ duration at rank 0.  It may also be desirable to
tend towards set periods such as 2 weeks, 4 weeks, 3 months.  It can make
bookkeepping easier with very long duration rituals.

> Time Taken: 1 hour + 20 min / 3 effective ranks

It is unusual to find a ritual whose Cast Time _increases_ with rank.  This is
not to say that it shouldn't be done... but I think that it would be unusual
enough as to make this another weirdness

> May be cast to effect 1 of the following
>
>         a)  Spell Base Chance
>         b)  Weapon BC - Dosent Not effect Defense

GE has never affected Def.  It only adds to chances rolled by the character
with the GE.  If we had an active Def system it would add.  We don't and it
doesn't.

>         c)  Skill Base Chance
>         d)  MR

With this split up d) should perhaps also cover attribute checks.  MR is a
specialised form of attribute check equal to 1 x WP + bonuses.

> To give an allowed bonuses of 1 + 1/3 Ranks (Rank 20 - 10%).

> Can be removed by a successfull application of Remove Curse as if it was a
> Minor Curse.

Ritual effects are not normally removable this way... another weirdness

Cheers,
            Martin


--

 _/_/  Peace Software New Zealand Ltd   Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com
_/     Martin Dickson                   Fax  : +64-9-373-0401
       Analyst                          Phone: +64-9-373-0400


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From: "Andrew Withy         (FAL AKL)" <AndrewW@falum.co.nz>
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1) generally we want to encourage specialist fighters or mages, not
fighter-mages (the most powerful character class). 1 + 1/2 x two is much
better than 1 + 2/3 to one area.
2) high level people will still buy these at 500sp/Rank. On magic
resistance, its worth every cent.

If you reduce the bonus and limit the range of percentage chances it
affects, you can keep the em, duration, cost , base chance etc the same. I'd
rather tweak the ritual than re-write from scratch if both give as good an
effect - more continuity, less upset E&Es.

K.I.S.S.

Andrew
> -----Original Message-----
> 
> Within limits, more choice is better: how about you get a bonus of 1+1/2
> ranks to *two* categories or 1+2/3 ranks to *one* category? (Also - what
> category, if any, do stat checks such as stun recovery fall into?)
> 
> With this level of depowering, I would decrease the price much more - say
> to
> around 100sp/rank.
> 
> Michael W.
> 

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<META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
<META NAME=3D"Generator" CONTENT=3D"MS Exchange Server version =
5.5.2448.0">
<TITLE>RE: Greaters</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">1) generally we want =
to encourage specialist fighters or mages, not fighter-mages (the most =
powerful character class). 1 + 1/2 x two is much better than 1 + 2/3 to =
one area.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">2) high level people =
will still buy these at 500sp/Rank. On magic resistance, its worth =
every cent.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">If you reduce the =
bonus and limit the range of percentage chances it affects, you can =
keep the em, duration, cost , base chance etc the same. I'd rather =
tweak the ritual than re-write from scratch if both give as good an =
effect - more continuity, less upset E&amp;Es.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">K.I.S.S.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Andrew</FONT>
<UL>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">-----Original Message-----</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Within limits, more choice is better: =
how about you get a bonus of 1+1/2</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">ranks to *two* categories or 1+2/3 =
ranks to *one* category? (Also - what</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">category, if any, do stat checks such =
as stun recovery fall into?)</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">With this level of depowering, I would =
decrease the price much more - say to</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">around 100sp/rank.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Michael W.</FONT>
</P>
</UL>
</BODY>
</HTML>
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On Fri, 5 Nov 1999, Martin Dickson wrote:

> > Personally I believe the Ritual Short Read as follows (wording may need
> > changing)
> >
> > --
> > Duration : 0 + 2 weeks/rank (Rank 20 = 52 weeks)
> 
> It is usual to have _some_ duration at rank 0.  It may also be desirable to
> tend towards set periods such as 2 weeks, 4 weeks, 3 months.  It can make
> bookkeepping easier with very long duration rituals.

Good point. 
> 
> > Time Taken: 1 hour + 20 min / 3 effective ranks
> 
> It is unusual to find a ritual whose Cast Time _increases_ with rank.  This is
> not to say that it shouldn't be done... but I think that it would be unusual
> enough as to make this another weirdness
> 
But this is a unusual type effective, and as this is very rarely cast
within game - certainly at the higher levels this dosent really effective
game play.

> > May be cast to effect 1 of the following
> >
> >         a)  Spell Base Chance
> >         b)  Weapon BC - Dosent Not effect Defense
> 
> GE has never affected Def.  It only adds to chances rolled by the character
> with the GE.  If we had an active Def system it would add.  We don't and it
> doesn't.
> 
> >         c)  Skill Base Chance
> >         d)  MR
> 
> With this split up d) should perhaps also cover attribute checks.  MR is a
> specialised form of attribute check equal to 1 x WP + bonuses.
> 
Agreed.

> > To give an allowed bonuses of 1 + 1/3 Ranks (Rank 20 - 10%).
> 
> > Can be removed by a successfull application of Remove Curse as if it was a
> > Minor Curse.
> 
> Ritual effects are not normally removable this way... another weirdness
> 

Included as is mention in the current spell that if cast as a negative can
be removed by as a minor curse, so was looking at making it consistant in
both aspects.

Needs to be reworded as mention by Rosemary.

> Cheers,
>             Martin

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On Tue, 2 Nov 1999, Ross Alexander wrote:

> There are four points I would like to have addressed by the meeting.


This may have already have been mentioned, but it was pointed out to me
the other day that the current version of ICE dosent list the required MA
of the college, but should be 13 based on the spells etc...


Pobably needs adding in section 21.2 Restrictions.

Magical Aptitude:  The MA requirement of this college is 13.


Jason 

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> > Duration : 0 + 2 weeks/rank (Rank 20 = 52 weeks)
> 
> It is usual to have _some_ duration at rank 0.  It may also be desirable to
> tend towards set periods such as 2 weeks, 4 weeks, 3 months.  It can make
> bookkeepping easier with very long duration rituals.
> 

How about this for duration


	Rank	Duration

	0-5	1 Sessions
	6-12	2 Sessions
	13-19	3 Sessions
	20	4 Sessions

Side Point :- Whatever we finally decide for the duration of Greater we
should probably also roll this change over to the Earth - Lesser
Enchanment

Jason

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"Andrew Withy (FAL AKL)" wrote:

> 1) generally we want to encourage specialist fighters or mages, not
> fighter-mages (the most powerful character class). 1 + 1/2 x two is
> much better than 1 + 2/3 to one area.

I don't see how the second sentance follows from the first.

> 2) high level people will still buy these at 500sp/Rank. On magic
> resistance, its worth every cent.

But it means that *only* high people will buy them. Even with the
current overpowered system, in about 4 years of play my characters have
only twice had a greater enchantment - once when they were 2000sp each,
and once when it was supplied by our employer (and had us wasted for a
month afterwards.)

A medium character who has done fairly well recently can spend 5000 on a
greater that increases all their base chances by 10%. To spend that much
for 10% only on MR is quite another matter. (Or perhaps 5% on MR and 5%
on spell BCs)

> If you reduce the bonus and limit the range of percentage chances it
> affects, you can keep the em, duration, cost , base chance etc the
> same. I'd rather tweak the ritual than re-write from scratch if both
> give as good an effect - more continuity, less upset E&Es.

I agree - change as little as you can. In this case, I see no strong
case for changing em, duration, cost , base chance etc.

Michael (who is still wondering the vast ocean of money everyone keeps
talking about doesn't ever slop in the direction of any of his
characters.)

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Subject: Re: Greaters
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On Fri, 5 Nov 1999, Michael Woodhams wrote:

> "Andrew Withy (FAL AKL)" wrote:
> 
> > 1) generally we want to encourage specialist fighters or mages, not
> > fighter-mages (the most powerful character class). 1 + 1/2 x two is
> > much better than 1 + 2/3 to one area.
> 
> I don't see how the second sentance follows from the first.
Sorry, but I dont ether.  From that I would suggest that we would end up
with stronger figther-mages instead of specialist one.  
	e.g.  Increase Weapons and Spells (Rank 20 = 11 %)
	instead on Weapons (+13% at Rank 20  (1 + 2/3).

However the 1 + 2/3 formula dosent provide any reason to rank beyond  18.

> I agree - change as little as you can. In this case, I see no strong
> case for changing em, duration, cost , base chance etc.
> 
One of the starting points for this discussion was that of duration as
once you have got your rank 20 Greater you can forget about having to get
it again.  This is a point for changing the duration, if only to remove
the permanenancy of the ritual.

Jason



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> But it means that *only* high people will buy them. Even with the
> current overpowered system, in about 4 years of play my characters have
> only twice had a greater enchantment - once when they were 2000sp each,
> and once when it was supplied by our employer (and had us wasted for a
> month afterwards.)

Dare I say it but only high level characters should have access to this kind
of ritual. The problems with GE only really occoured since the ritual became
common and cheap and flooded into the medium ranks of adventurers. The fact
is that in game terms the High characters need the bonus's cos of the funky
stuff that gets thrown at them. Low and medium are generally ok.

Why not leave the ritual pretty much as is and limit it from another angle.
Say Maximum bonus of PC -5.

The idea here is not specifically the equation above but lets look at some
off the wall angles to see what other options are there before we scrap the
ritual itself.

> Michael (who is still wondering the vast ocean of money everyone keeps
> talking about doesn't ever slop in the direction of any of his
> characters.)

Lets also try to keep character ideal's out of the discussion :-)

Mandos
/s

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Jason Saggers wrote:

>
>
> How about this for duration
>
>         Rank    Duration
>
>         0-5     1 Sessions
>         6-12    2 Sessions
>         13-19   3 Sessions
>         20      4 Sessions
>

I don't like expensive or difficult to get magics having multi-session
durations. This creates a pressure for people to play the same character
multiple sessions in a row ("I only just got enough money to pay back for Acme's
greater last session - I need to play them this session again for it to be worth
it!") As this pressure is likely to run counter to character or enjoyment
considerations, I think this is a Bad Thing.

It also makes it much harder for those with moderately ranked GE to compete with
those who have it highly ranked. (Why go to the 4 adventure E&E with rank 5,
when you can go to one of the already-stinking-rich E&E's with rank 15 - because
it lasts three sessions, you can get the same price per session with three times
the bonus.)

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Subject: RE: Greaters
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> One of the starting points for this discussion was that of duration as
> once you have got your rank 20 Greater you can forget about having to get
> it again.  This is a point for changing the duration, if only to remove
> the permanenancy of the ritual.

The number of Rank 20 Greaters in existance is pretty small. The number of
people likly to gain them in the future is also pretty small. The actual
impact of the rank 20 option in the game is miniscule because once you get
to the levels where you can get access to Rank 20 GE your chances of death
are pretty good.

I see the problem with GE being the Medium characters with the +10-+20
Greaters.

Duration is not n issue with either of those.

Mandos
/s




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Mandos D Shadowspawn Esq wrote:

> The problems with GE only really occoured since the ritual became
> common and cheap and flooded into the medium ranks of adventurers.

Certainly I think it is true that the problems with GE became highly apparent
when they became cheaper and thus more common and higher ranked and thus more
powerful.

In the old days.... back before email.. and when we had to hand carve our dice
out of rocks.... the highest rank GE commonly available game +11%, cost 11,000
and lasted 3 months.  At this price it was desirable and niether an automatic
purchase nor unattainable.  +11% was still a very powerful enchantment.

One of the most powerful/coolest things that you could possibly get was a Rank
20 GE... permanent (well... in this life anyway), +20% to everything... the
power, the power.  They were however damn hard to get hold of.

> The idea here is not specifically the equation above but lets look at some
> off the wall angles to see what other options are there before we scrap the
> ritual itself.

I don't wish to scrap the ritual.  I wish to tone it down.  +20% on everything
distorts the game and stretches a rather thin system even further.

We've had this whole discussion about GE before.  We would never condone adding
this ritual to the game now (if it was being proposed) and I don't see why we
continue to tolerate it as it is.

I think your suggestion of basing it on PC (or some other measure) of experience
has merit... although it is still (IMHO) too powerful an effect to be embodied
in a single, commonly available ritual.

Cheers,
            Martin

--

 _/_/  Peace Software New Zealand Ltd   Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com
_/     Martin Dickson                   Fax  : +64-9-373-0401
       Analyst                          Phone: +64-9-373-0400


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> I think your suggestion of basing it on PC (or some other
> measure) of experience has merit... although it is still (IMHO) too
powerful an effect
> to be embodied in a single, commonly available ritual.

I think one of the problems we have is in the perception here.

Lets clarify a few points.

1 The ritual takes literally years to rank. A huge investment for the mage.
2 The percieved problem is the amount the ritual gives to all players who
buy the ritual.
3 Any character of any level can purchase a casting if they can affortd it.
4 Many GM's consider this ritual an abomination. :-)

Lets look some other abominations.....

Resistance from Magical fire.

The only difference between these effects is in the amount of effort the
mage takes in ranking them.

So why not apply a similar ruling to the one uses for PMF. Half ranks for
anyone who is not the adept and allow it to be cast on self.

This means E&E's get a bonus to their cast chances of 20%. No big deal,
their spells are all pretty easy anyway.
They become better fighters than others by 10%. Most of them are fighter
mages anyway and it is only 10%

Minor change fixes most of the percieved problems.

Mandos
/s

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Mandos D Shadowspawn Esq wrote:

> Lets look some other abominations.....
>
> Resistance from Magical fire.

PMF has been dropped from the fire college for being an abomination.

> So why not apply a similar ruling to the one uses for PMF.

OK.  :)  :)

Cheers,
            Martin

Seriously... that could be OK... although I still think +10 blanket bonus is
tres big.

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_/     Martin Dickson                   Fax  : +64-9-373-0401
       Analyst                          Phone: +64-9-373-0400


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> > Lets look some other abominations.....
> >
> > Resistance from Magical fire.
> 
> PMF has been dropped from the fire college for being an abomination.

Yippee :-)
 
> > So why not apply a similar ruling to the one uses for PMF.
> 
> OK.  :)  :)

But in tha case of GE I think the halfway measures are enough :-)

Mandos
/s
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One of my perceived problems with Greaters is that there is very little
point ranking it unless you do so until you are one of the best in the
guild, at which point you become very popular indeed. (This was
indirectly one of my points against the multi-session duration
suggestion.) Even then it does nothing for you on adventure, except what
you can buy with the money it brings you. (Indeed, now that the guild
does GEs at cost at rank 11, there is *no* advantage to having GE ranked
until you exceed rank 11.)

There used to be a similar problem with Wiccan restoratives - they worked
just as well whether you had the witch with you or not. The solution was
to allow cheap (or free) short term restoratives and expensive permanent
ones. The same reasoning could be applied to Greaters - for little or no
cost, an Enchanter can do a GE that lasts a few days (say, flat duration
of 1 week, or 1 day per rank.) For much moola, they can do one that lasts
a session.

Advantages:
* E&Es with lowish rank in GE get to make some use of it
* Lowish level parties get to play with GE occasionally. (Some might
classify this as a disadvantage.)

Disadvantages:
* Increases the already major amount of powerup a party gets by having an
E&E (due to quickness)
* The E&E gets to spend all their EP and time on GE and Quickness, gets
to massively power up the rest of the party, then can't do anything
themselves and gets bored.
* If the level is high enough that everyone was going to get a greater
anyhow, there is an instant 5000sp/person or so difference in outcome
depending on whether you get an E&E with GE ranked or not.

Most certainly this would be horrible if just this change were made, due
to how much an E&E could power up low level parties - I think Mandos's
bonus-limited-by-PC rule, the reduced-bonuses and the
bonuses-only-apply-to-one-or-two-areas rules would all have to be in
before this would be paletable.

Do others think the uselessness of low ranks in GE is a significant
problem? If so, is this suggestion a real solution that does more good
than harm?

Michael.




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This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
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To spell it out:
+1% + 1%/2 ranks in two areas is much tougher (worse) than +1% + 2%/3 ranks
in one area, and further advantages multi-skilled characters such as
fighter-mages over the specialist fighters and mages. Having this option is
also more complex without any added benefits. 1 + 1/2 ranks is OK.

History:
I recall that +1% (+ 1/ 2 full ranks) on one of weapon, stat, magic, skill,
MR %ages for 2 weeks / 3 months / 1 year at 80%+1/Rank, 125 EM, 500sp/Rank
(?) is one of the three proposals we considered last time (thanks, Dean).
The other two proposals were to change the cost, which we did as an interrim
measure,  and (reduce it to either a very minor ritual or scrap totally - I
forget which).

(PC - 5) is not bad for balance, but rather artificial. What about those who
don't raise their PC, or who have lots of weekend adventures, or elves? It
makes PC more of a must-have stat. All of these are arbitrary sillinesses.
The only advantage to this method is that it helps fighters +4%.

Permanent Rank 20 greaters are common - I have come to expect 2-3 PCs with
Rank 20 greaters on the low-medium games I run. I just need to kill more
PCs.

Andrew
> -----Original Message-----
> On Fri, 5 Nov 1999, Michael Woodhams wrote:
> 
> > "Andrew Withy (FAL AKL)" wrote:
> > 
> > > 1) generally we want to encourage specialist fighters or mages, not
> > > fighter-mages (the most powerful character class). 1 + 1/2 x two is
> > > much better than 1 + 2/3 to one area.
> > 
> > I don't see how the second sentance follows from the first.
> Sorry, but I dont ether.  From that I would suggest that we would end up
> with stronger figther-mages instead of specialist one.  
> 	e.g.  Increase Weapons and Spells (Rank 20 = 11 %)
> 	instead on Weapons (+13% at Rank 20  (1 + 2/3).
> 
> 

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charset=3Dus-ascii">
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<TITLE>RE: Greaters</TITLE>
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<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">To spell it =
out:</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">+1% + 1%/2 ranks in =
two areas is much tougher (worse) than +1% + 2%/3 ranks in one area, =
and further advantages multi-skilled characters such as fighter-mages =
over the specialist fighters and mages. Having this option is also more =
complex without any added benefits. 1 + 1/2 ranks is OK.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">History:</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">I recall that +1% =
(+ 1/ 2 full ranks) on one of weapon, stat, magic, skill, MR %ages for =
2 weeks / 3 months / 1 year at 80%+1/Rank, 125 EM, 500sp/Rank (?) is =
one of the three proposals we considered last time (thanks, Dean). The =
other two proposals were to change the cost, which we did as an =
interrim measure,&nbsp; and (reduce it to either a very minor ritual or =
scrap totally - I forget which).</FONT></P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">(PC - 5) is not bad =
for balance, but rather artificial. What about those who don't raise =
their PC, or who have lots of weekend adventures, or elves? It makes PC =
more of a must-have stat. All of these are arbitrary sillinesses. The =
only advantage to this method is that it helps fighters +4%.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Permanent Rank 20 =
greaters are common - I have come to expect 2-3 PCs with Rank 20 =
greaters on the low-medium games I run. I just need to kill more =
PCs.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Andrew</FONT>
<UL>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">-----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">On Fri, 5 Nov 1999, Michael Woodhams =
wrote:</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &quot;Andrew Withy (FAL =
AKL)&quot; wrote:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt; 1) generally we want to =
encourage specialist fighters or mages, not</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt; fighter-mages (the most =
powerful character class). 1 + 1/2 x two is</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt; much better than 1 + 2/3 to =
one area.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; I don't see how the second =
sentance follows from the first.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Sorry, but I dont ether.&nbsp; From =
that I would suggest that we would end up</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">with stronger figther-mages instead =
of specialist one.&nbsp; </FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">e.g.&nbsp; Increase Weapons and Spells (Rank 20 =3D 11 =
%)</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">instead on Weapons (+13% at Rank 20&nbsp; (1 + =
2/3).</FONT>
</P>
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Subject: RE: Greaters
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 18:18:42 +1300
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From: "Michael Parkinson" <m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz>
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Michael Woodhams said

> ... (Indeed, now that the guild
> does GEs at cost at rank 11, there is *no* advantage to having GE ranked
> until you exceed rank 11.) ...
> Do others think the uselessness of low ranks in GE is a significant
> problem? If so, is this suggestion a real solution that does more good
> than harm?
>

The problem with sub rank-11 GE is the duration.  IF, at low ranks,  we had
something like [rank+1] weeks -- or better yet 3 months [or EVEN better yet
"1 season" -- i.e. every G.E. below rank 20 fell-off on the high holidays]
then you would see people purchasing low rank G.E. to suit their budget, or
PC, or whatever.  This is not necessarily a good thing -- it just answers
your point about ranking the ritual.

to put it another way a Rank10 = +11 usually costs [using the book price]
2750sp* a week;
whereas a Rank11 = +12 usually costs 462sp* a week.

*excluding incidental factors such as failure, multiple effects, mark-up,
taxes & death.


regards, another Michael

Michael Parkinson
Mathematics & Statistics Subject Librarian
Science Library, University of Auckland,
Private Bag 92019, AUCKLAND, N.Z.
Email: m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz
Phone: (09) 3737 599 x 5858  Fax:   (09) 3082 304
-------------------------------------------------

Of all the sciences, astronomy is the one in which you can least experiment.
... Experimentation is a convenient is a tool, but large bodies of science
have been developed without it. -- von Neumann (1955) in “The Neumann
Compendium” edited by Brody & Vamos (1995)
======================================

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Subject: Re: Greaters
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 19:33:13 +1300
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1) generally we want to encourage specialist fighters or mages, not =
fighter-mages (the most powerful character class). 1 + 1/2 x two is much =
better than 1 + 2/3 to one area.
   =20
    2) high level people will still buy these at 500sp/Rank. On magic =
resistance, its worth every cent.=20
   =20
    If you reduce the bonus and limit the range of percentage chances it =
affects, you can keep the em, duration, cost , base chance etc the same. =
I'd rather tweak the ritual than re-write from scratch if both give as =
good an effect - more continuity, less upset E&Es.
   =20
        Damn their eyes, every greed infested last one of 'em...
   =20
        Upset is good for E&Es...And, they have had a pretty good run of =
it, really...They do, after all, have the cheapest spells in the game, =
with the possible exception of Namer special knowledge.
   =20
        Rape the oily little ticks, that's what I say...After all, it is =
a thieving college, one way or another...
   =20
    Jim.
   =20

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<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><TITLE>RE: Greaters</TITLE><!DOCTYPE HTML =
PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.71.1712.3"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
    <P><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2>1) generally we want =
to encourage=20
    specialist fighters or mages, not fighter-mages (the most powerful =
character=20
    class). 1 + 1/2 x two is much better than 1 + 2/3 to one =
area.</FONT></P>
    <P><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2>2) high level people =
will still buy=20
    these at 500sp/Rank. On magic resistance, its worth every =
</FONT><FONT=20
    color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2>cent.</FONT> </P>
    <P><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2>If you reduce the =
bonus and limit=20
    the range of percentage chances it affects, you can keep the em, =
duration,=20
    cost , base chance etc the same. I'd rather tweak the ritual than =
re-write=20
    from scratch if both give as good an effect - more continuity, less =
upset=20
    E&amp;Es.</FONT></P>
    <P><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT =
color=3D#000000=20
    size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial>Damn =
their eyes,=20
    every greed infested last one of 'em...</FONT></FONT></P>
    <P><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2><FONT color=3D#0000ff=20
    face=3DArial></FONT>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT color=3D#0000ff =
face=3DArial>Upset is=20
    good for E&amp;Es...And, they have had a pretty good run of it,=20
    really...They do, after all, have the cheapest spells in the game, =
with the=20
    possible exception of Namer special knowledge.</FONT></FONT></P>
    <P><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2><FONT color=3D#0000ff=20
    face=3DArial></FONT>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT color=3D#000000>Rape =
the oily=20
    little ticks, that's what I say...After all, it is a thieving =
college, one=20
    way or another...</FONT></FONT></P>
    <P><FONT size=3D2>Jim.</FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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Subject: Re: Greaters
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>"Andrew Withy (FAL AKL)" wrote:
>
>> 1) generally we want to encourage specialist fighters or mages, not
>> fighter-mages (the most powerful character class). 1 + 1/2 x two is
>> much better than 1 + 2/3 to one area.
>
>I don't see how the second sentance follows from the first.
>
>> 2) high level people will still buy these at 500sp/Rank. On magic
>> resistance, its worth every cent.
>
    They don't. But they are connected. A high level character will
definitely take an Enchantment of 11 pts to Magic Resistance, because
general Magic Resistance tops out at about the 60% mark.
    Given that an Enchantment might only be cast on 4 or so kinds of success
chance, then a player will have to choose which of their success chances
they want to increase, unless they are absolutely loaded with loot.


>I agree - change as little as you can. In this case, I see no strong
>case for changing em, duration, cost , base chance etc.

    Why? What useful thing does conservatism do? Does it move this moribund
system any further? No, it doesn't. Does it provide player advantage? Yes,
it does. I leave you to work out the implication.
>
>Michael (who is still wondering the vast ocean of money everyone keeps
>talking about doesn't ever slop in the direction of any of his
>characters.)
>
    You choose to play in low to middle level games. The rewards from those
kinds of games is likely to be low to middle, as well. If you want to make
big loot, you have to take big risks.
Jim.

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Just make the duration 'until the next equinox or solstice', whatever the
rank. That means that there is a point in having a low ranked one, and gets
rid of the cowardice-inducing side-effect of having a ritual effect that can
only be removed by the death of the character.
Jim.

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I thnk you mean the intercalary days / high holidays at the end of session .
Equinox / solstice is in the middle of the session.

Otherwise, yes.

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Jim Arona [SMTP:jimarona@ihug.co.nz]
> Sent:	Friday, November 05, 1999 7:56 PM
> To:	dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject:	Re: Greaters
> 
> Just make the duration 'until the next equinox or solstice', whatever the
> rank. That means that there is a point in having a low ranked one, and
> gets
> rid of the cowardice-inducing side-effect of having a ritual effect that
> can
> only be removed by the death of the character.
> Jim.
> 
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<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">I thnk you mean the =
intercalary days / high holidays at the end of session . Equinox / =
solstice is in the middle of the session.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Otherwise, =
yes.</FONT>
</P>
<UL>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">-----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">From:&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></B> <FONT =
SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">Jim Arona [SMTP:jimarona@ihug.co.nz]</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">Sent:&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></B> <FONT =
SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">Friday, November 05, 1999 7:56 PM</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D1 =
FACE=3D"Arial">To:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></B> <FONT SIZE=3D1 =
FACE=3D"Arial">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D1 =
FACE=3D"Arial">Subject:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT>=
</B> <FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">Re: Greaters</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Just make the duration 'until the next =
equinox or solstice', whatever the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">rank. That means that there is a =
point in having a low ranked one, and gets</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">rid of the cowardice-inducing =
side-effect of having a ritual effect that can</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">only be removed by the death of the =
character.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Jim.</FONT>
</P>

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