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Subject: Re: DQ Spell Price Review
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Keith wrote:
One thing I noticed straight away. The divisions within the Celestial
College are gone. I presume that was intentional? Presumably because there
were a few differences.


No, the divisions are still there, with the same limits as previously. 
I just got lazy with my spreadsheet (if you are using pivot tables to 
compare things you have to put in all the colleges separately, you can't 
just add a few columns).

Rosemary
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<br><font size=2><tt>Keith wrote:</tt></font>
<br><font size=2><tt>One thing I noticed straight away. The divisions within the Celestial<br>
College are gone. I presume that was intentional? Presumably because there<br>
were a few differences.<br>
</tt></font>
<br>
<br><font size=2><tt>No, the divisions are still there, with the same limits as previously. </tt></font>
<br><font size=2><tt>I just got lazy with my spreadsheet (if you are using pivot tables to compare things you have to put in all the colleges separately, you can't just add a few columns).</tt></font>
<br>
<br><font size=2><tt>Rosemary</tt></font>
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What is the meaning of 'never' in the spell cost  column?
Jim.

This spell is not part of the college.  This applies to colleges with 
branches, ie earth and celestial.  I'll figure a way of displaying it 
better when I transfer the info to the Players Guide.

Rosemary 
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<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">What is the meaning of 'never' in the spell cost &nbsp;column?</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Jim.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">This spell is not part of the college. &nbsp;This applies to colleges with branches, ie earth and celestial. &nbsp;I'll figure a way of displaying it better when I transfer the info to the Players Guide.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Rosemary </font>
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Subject: Democracy in DQ [was Re: Comments on Names]
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From: Martin Dickson <martind@peace.com>
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> [Martin] Well... last time I looked GM's meetings were democratic, one diety,
> one vote, and all that...
>
> [Jim] If it were a democracy, then there would be elected members. That isn't
> the way it works. Whoever turns up gets a vote. That's definitely not
> democratic, which is rule on behalf of the electorate.

Representative democracy -- which we have as a governmental form in this country
-- is certainly one style of democracy, which is "rule by the people" rather
than "rule on behalf of the electorate".  Even so, there is no requirement that
representatives be elected, they could be awarded the position on merit, or
could be drawn by lot, etc. -- and this is even more the case under MMP.

Athenian style "participating" democracy gave all citizens the right to vote on
each issue -- the agenda being drawn up by representatives selected by lot.  (Of
course to be a citizen, you had to be a land holding male over the age of 30).

DQ runs more like the Athenian form of democracy than our modern representative
form.  The GMs tend to be the ones who set the agenda and present the
items/documents upon which votes will be cast, but any citizen of the DQ game
can turn up and vote if they so wish.  I presume -- although it has never
happened while I've been present -- that we would not extend this privilege to
those who are neither players nor GMs in this game... not that random members of
the general public are likely to turn up... but "citizenship" is assumed to stem
from participation in the game.

Anyway... enough political ramblings.  The point is, that this is a democracy --
at least until we either appoint a dictator, or drastically change who is
allowed to vote or otherwise participate in rulings.

Regards,
            Martin

--

 _/_/  Peace Software New Zealand Ltd   Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com
_/     Martin Dickson                   Fax  : +64-9-373-0401
       Analyst                          Phone: +64-9-373-0400




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Keith wrote:
I presume the new prices come into effect upon publication. If so, what
will the ruling be on spell purchasing of characters who are in training
over the duration e.g. during the last quarter this year and the first
quarter next year (assuming the price change occurs at the beginning of 
the
year. Do they still purchase at the old price? I assume that PCs would
purchase their spells as soon as they got back to the Guild.


There are a number of other changes in the Players Guide. 
Once they are all voted in the Players Guide will come into effect on a 
particular guild date and take effect from that date.  So if we pick a 
Guild meeting date then characters will only be able to use the new prices 
for training AFTER that date.  In practice we may want to make the 
effective date the start of the previous season, but we can discuss this 
at the time.

Rosemary
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<br><font size=2><tt>Keith wrote:</tt></font>
<br><font size=2><tt>I presume the new prices come into effect upon publication. If so, what<br>
will the ruling be on spell purchasing of characters who are in training<br>
over the duration e.g. during the last quarter this year and the first<br>
quarter next year (assuming the price change occurs at the beginning of the<br>
year. Do they still purchase at the old price? I assume that PCs would<br>
purchase their spells as soon as they got back to the Guild.<br>
</tt></font>
<br>
<br><font size=2><tt>There are a number of other changes in the Players Guide. &nbsp;</tt></font>
<br><font size=2><tt>Once they are all voted in the Players Guide will come into effect on a particular guild date and take effect from that date. &nbsp;So if we pick a Guild meeting date then characters will only be able to use the new prices for training AFTER that date. &nbsp;In practice we may want to make the effective date the start of the previous season, but we can discuss this at the time.</tt></font>
<br>
<br><font size=2><tt>Rosemary</tt></font>
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Subject: RE: Democracy in DQ [was Re: Comments on Names]
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>Anyway... enough political ramblings.  The point is, that this is a
democracy --
>at least until we either appoint a dictator, or drastically change who is
>allowed to vote or otherwise participate in rulings.

A dictator is always the best way to get a job done as they tend to have a
focused vision of the end result. Giving DQ another dictator would be a
really cool plan but we would never be able to agree on who it would be :-)

Mandos
/s




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Subject: Re: Spell Price Review
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Then change it back for the Earth College. The Earth College does not =
make a distinction between it's branches on magic. All spells that a =
Druidic Earth mage can learn can be learnt by a Pacifistic Earth mage. =
There are no unshared spells.
Jim.
-----Original Message-----
    From: RMansfield@aj.co.nz <RMansfield@aj.co.nz>
    To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz <dq@dq.sf.org.nz>
    Date: Wednesday, 17 November 1999 08:39
    Subject: Re: Spell Price Review
   =20
   =20
   =20
    What is the meaning of 'never' in the spell cost  column?=20
    Jim.=20
   =20
    This spell is not part of the college.  This applies to colleges =
with branches, ie earth and celestial.  I'll figure a way of displaying =
it better when I transfer the info to the Players Guide.=20
   =20
    Rosemary=20

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</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Then change it back for the Earth =
College. The=20
Earth College does not make a distinction between it's branches on =
magic. All=20
spells that a Druidic Earth mage can learn can be learnt by a Pacifistic =
Earth=20
mage. There are no unshared spells.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT><FONT =
size=3D2>Jim.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original =
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
    </B><A href=3D"mailto:RMansfield@aj.co.nz">RMansfield@aj.co.nz</A> =
&lt;<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:RMansfield@aj.co.nz">RMansfield@aj.co.nz</A>&gt;<BR><B>To:=
=20
    </B><A href=3D"mailto:dq@dq.sf.org.nz">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</A> &lt;<A=20
    href=3D"mailto:dq@dq.sf.org.nz">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</A>&gt;<BR><B>Date:=20
    </B>Wednesday, 17 November 1999 08:39<BR><B>Subject: </B>Re: Spell =
Price=20
    Review<BR><BR></DIV></FONT><BR><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D2>What =
is the=20
    meaning of 'never' in the spell cost &nbsp;column?</FONT> <BR><FONT=20
    face=3Dsans-serif size=3D2>Jim.</FONT> <BR><BR><FONT =
face=3Dsans-serif size=3D2>This=20
    spell is not part of the college. &nbsp;This applies to colleges =
with=20
    branches, ie earth and celestial. &nbsp;I'll figure a way of =
displaying it=20
    better when I transfer the info to the Players Guide.</FONT> =
<BR><BR><FONT=20
    face=3Dsans-serif size=3D2>Rosemary =
</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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Subject: Re: Democracy in DQ [was Re: Comments on Names]
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Martin wrote:

>The GMs tend to be the ones who set the agenda and present the
>items/documents upon which votes will be cast, but any citizen of the DQ
game
>can turn up and vote if they so wish. ...

Thats interesting, I never knew "mere players" such as myself were entitled
to attend Gods meeting. In fact I seem to recall being evicted from the
lower common room by one of the more officious GM's (who shall remain
nameless), when a "Gods" meeting was about to start. There are many reasons
why players may not have (yet) GM'd, but I would submit that that should
not preclude them from having some input into the process. They may in fact
have something interesting to offer in terms of new ideas and different
perspectives on rules and current issues.


/\/\ark




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Subject: RE: Spell Price Review
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From: Stephen Martin <stephenm@qed.co.nz>
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The differences between the branches are primarily philosophical.  Most
pacifistic earth mages are pacifists and won't learn or teach combat spells.
The guild Pacifistic Earth mage is more practical and knows and will teach
non-damaging combat spells (AoE, Hands) to adventurers - which is why he got
the job :).
Most militant-minded Earth mages end up being Druids as for them the path to
power and glory is easier and more acceptable.

All damaging/killing combat spells should be marked as QUEST for P. Earth
mages, and GMs should keep in mind that it's the rare P. Earth mage who
knows and will teach these spells.

Cheers, Stephen.

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Jim Arona [SMTP:jimarona@ihug.co.nz]
> Sent:	Wednesday, November 17, 1999 9:01 AM
> 
> Then change it back for the Earth College. The Earth College does not make
> a distinction between it's branches on magic. All spells that a Druidic
> Earth mage can learn can be learnt by a Pacifistic Earth mage. There are
> no unshared spells.
> Jim.
> 
> 	-----Original Message-----
> 	From: RMansfield@aj.co.nz <mailto:RMansfield@aj.co.nz>
> 	To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz <mailto:dq@dq.sf.org.nz>
> 	
> 	This spell is not part of the college.  This applies to colleges
> with branches, ie earth and celestial.  I'll figure a way of displaying it
> better when I transfer the info to the Players Guide. 
> 	
> 	Rosemary 
> 
	-----Original Message-----
	From:	Jim Arona [SMTP:jimarona@ihug.co.nz]

What is the meaning of 'never' in the spell cost  column? 
Jim. 




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From: Michael Woodhams <michaelw@peace.com>
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RMansfield@aj.co.nz wrote:

>
> Here are the results of the review of the availability and prices of
> spells (pdf format).
>
> Things we took into account:
> * spells given a nominal 'toughness' class and priced accordingly.
> This allowed some consistency across colleges and comparison on like
> with like.
> *  more spells to be generally available to allow more variety between
> characters.  Generally spells unavailable were in the OTT class

I've only looked with any detail at the colleges I have characters in,
as I am familiar with them.

E&E: No surprises here. This college had mega-useful spells at really
cheap prices, which is changed. The order by price agrees with my
ranking of usefulness.

Illusion:
The entries for Illusiary Animal must be in error - first, the price of
100,000 is clearly wrong. If we accept the rating of 'tough utility',
then maybe you mean 10,000. I suppose it has enough uses to get into
tough utility, but I would have placed it towards the lower end rather
than the top end of the prices. (BTW, my illusionist already has this,
so the price has no affect on me.)

I notice Ward is cheaper for some colleges than others. I presume this
is deliberate? It also implies that it is a different ritual for
different colleges - this is consistent with the current rules, isn't
it?

Witch: You intend to make creeping doom available for 1000sp? I also
note that you propose making Damnum Magnatum buyable - OK by me, but
some might disagree. With Hellfire (and I note in Fire,
Dragonflames) you seem to be pricing medium level blast mages out of
existance - people can easily take years to get enough money for one of
these spells. (Again, this has no direct effect on me - my witch would
never get Hellfire anyhow.)

Michael W.




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Subject: Re: Democracy in DQ [was Re: Comments on Names]
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Mark Simpson wrote:

> Martin wrote:
>
> >The GMs tend to be the ones who set the agenda and present the
> >items/documents upon which votes will be cast, but any citizen of the DQ
> game
> >can turn up and vote if they so wish. ...
>
> Thats interesting, I never knew "mere players" such as myself were entitled
> to attend Gods meeting. In fact I seem to recall being evicted from the
> lower common room by one of the more officious GM's (who shall remain
> nameless), when a "Gods" meeting was about to start. There are many reasons
> why players may not have (yet) GM'd, but I would submit that that should
> not preclude them from having some input into the process. They may in fact
> have something interesting to offer in terms of new ideas and different
> perspectives on rules and current issues.

I am a player only, and I have attended a couple of Gods meetings, when there
were rules issues I was interested in.

I think the pre-guild meeting Gods meeting is different as it is discussing
adventures going out, and the discussion may include information players
should not know. I am not sure of this, however, as I have never attended a
pre-guild meeting Gods meeting.

Michael W.




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Subject: Re:RE: Democracy in DQ [was Re: Comments on Names]
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From: Ross.Alexander@uk.neceur.com (Ross Alexander)
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> A dictator is always the best way to get a job done as they tend to have a
> focused vision of the end result. Giving DQ another dictator would be a
> really cool plan but we would never be able to agree on who it would be :-)

You can never accuse Stalin, Hilter, Mao or Polpot of lacking in focus but
they certainly fucked up a large number of people's sunday afternoon!

Ross bored 25K away waiting for database import to finish.


But then again in the home of democracy one wonders about SuperBlair's
democratic credentials.

Stir, stir, stir.


And now back to DQ ...


____________________Reply Separator____________________
Subject:    RE: Democracy in DQ [was Re: Comments on Names]
Author: "Mandos Mitchinson" <mandos@nexus.org.nz>
Date:       17/11/99 08:45

>Anyway... enough political ramblings.  The point is, that this is a
democracy --
>at least until we either appoint a dictator, or drastically change who is
>allowed to vote or otherwise participate in rulings.


Mandos
/s




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From: Martin Dickson <martind@peace.com>
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Mark Simpson wrote:

> ... I seem to recall being evicted from the lower common room by one of the
> more officious GM's (who shall remain
> nameless), when a "Gods" meeting was about to start.

The GMs meetings before Guild meetings tend to discuss adventures going out so
the eviction may be more related to "classified" information rather than
clearing away the peasantry before the hoi-poloi turn up.  On the other
hand.... officiousness has never been in short supply.  :)

> There are many reasons why players may not have (yet) GM'd, but I would
> submit that that should
> not preclude them from having some input into the process. They may in fact
> have something interesting to offer in terms of new ideas and different
> perspectives on rules and current issues.

I tend to agree.  I do not see DQ  in terms of players vs. GMs... but rather as
a shared story universe.  Non-GMs may have many skills that could add colour,
flavour and growth to the universe -- for example, a player who drew up
beautiful maps, or made portraits of characters, or provided information on
medieval/fantasy architecture would all contribute to the shared experience.

One also finds that arguing eligibility on the grounds of GMing is shaky ground
indeed.  What constistutes this magic GMing quality?  GMed once 10 years ago?
Thrice in the past 3 years?  Ever?  Every session?  The session before this
meeting?  Will be GMing for the first time next session?  I don't really see
this as a workable system either.

Cheers,
            Martin

--

 _/_/  Peace Software New Zealand Ltd   Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com
_/     Martin Dickson                   Fax  : +64-9-373-0401
       Analyst                          Phone: +64-9-373-0400




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Michael wrote:
Illusion:
The entries for Illusory Animal must be in error - first, the price of 
100,000 is clearly wrong. If we accept the rating of 'tough utility',
then maybe you mean 10,000. I suppose it has enough uses to get into
tough utility, but I would have placed it towards the lower end rather
than the top end of the prices. 

Oops yup Animal should be 10,000. 

It's 'TU' because once you've got any duration on it, it's very useful, eg 
bloodhound tracking, pack pony, random distractions, especially if you've 
got beastmaster ranks with the relevant animal.

Michael wrote:
I notice Ward is cheaper for some colleges than others. I presume this
is deliberate? It also implies that it is a different ritual for
different colleges - this is consistent with the current rules, isn't
it?

Ward didn't used to be available for lots of colleges.  I made it 
generally available with a default price of 4000 sp.  Some colleges have 
it with other prices where they have good or poor opportunities to use 
ward. 

NB Witchcraft Creeping Doom s/b 10,000 (not 1000).

Michael wrote:
I also note that you propose making Damnum Magnatum buyable - OK by me, 
but
some might disagree. With Hellfire (and I note in Fire, 
Dragonflames) you seem to be pricing medium level blast mages out of
existence - people can easily take years to get enough money for one of
these spells. 

Hellfire and DragonFlames are NOT medium level blast spells - but a couple 
of the toughest spell available to any college. 
Rosemary
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<br><font face="sans-serif">Michael wrote:</font>
<br><tt>Illusion:<br>
The entries for Illusory Animal must be in error - first, the price of <br>
100,000 is clearly wrong. If we accept the rating of 'tough utility',<br>
then maybe you mean 10,000. I suppose it has enough uses to get into<br>
tough utility, but I would have placed it towards the lower end rather<br>
than the top end of the prices. </tt>
<br>
<br><font face="sans-serif">Oops yup Animal should be 10,000. &nbsp;</font>
<br>
<br><font face="sans-serif">It's 'TU' because once you've got any duration on it, it's very useful, eg bloodhound tracking, pack pony, random distractions, especially if you've got beastmaster ranks with the relevant animal.</font>
<br>
<br><font face="sans-serif">Michael wrote:</font>
<br><font size=2><tt>I notice Ward is cheaper for some colleges than others. I presume this<br>
is deliberate? It also implies that it is a different ritual for<br>
different colleges - this is consistent with the current rules, isn't<br>
it?</tt></font>
<br>
<br><font face="sans-serif">Ward didn't used to be available for lots of colleges. &nbsp;I made it generally available with a default price of 4000 sp. &nbsp;Some colleges have it with other prices where they have good or poor opportunities to use ward. </font>
<br>
<br><font face="sans-serif">NB Witchcraft Creeping Doom s/b 10,000 (not 1000).</font>
<br>
<br><font face="sans-serif">Michael wrote:</font>
<br><font size=2><tt>I also note that you propose making Damnum Magnatum buyable - OK by me, but<br>
some might disagree. With Hellfire (and I note in Fire, <br>
Dragonflames) you seem to be pricing medium level blast mages out of<br>
existence - people can easily take years to get enough money for one of<br>
these spells. </tt></font>
<br>
<br><font face="sans-serif">Hellfire and DragonFlames are NOT medium level blast spells - but a couple of the toughest spell available to any college. &nbsp;</font>
<br><font face="sans-serif">Rosemary</font>
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    Agreed. These spells should be costing this sort of money. You could =
even, sensibly argue that they ought to be higher.
    However, I notice that Ray of Cold, (half damage) is given a price =
of 5,000. Ice Projectiles is 10,000. I don't have an objection to the =
price for Ice Projectiles, but I think that Ray of Cold is way =
under-valued. Personally, I think half damage spells should start at =
8,000. Why else would you bother with a 'save for none' bolt spell, when =
it costs 2,500? After all, a spell that inflicts harm even if you resist =
is worth more than twice it's cost. Every point of FT of a succesful =
cast has some effect. Spells that only offer the possibility of =
inflicting harm are much less cost effective.
Jim.

    Michael wrote:=20
    I also note that you propose making Damnum Magnatum buyable - OK by =
me, but
    some might disagree. With Hellfire (and I note in Fire,=20
    Dragonflames) you seem to be pricing medium level blast mages out of
    existence - people can easily take years to get enough money for one =
of
    these spells.=20
   =20
    Hellfire and DragonFlames are NOT medium level blast spells - but a =
couple of the toughest spell available to any college.  =20
    Rosemary

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.71.1712.3"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Agreed. These =
spells should=20
be costing this sort of money. You could even, sensibly argue that they =
ought to=20
be higher.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT =
color=3D#000000>However,=20
I notice that Ray of Cold, (half damage) is given a price of 5,000. Ice=20
Projectiles is 10,000. I don't have an objection to the price for Ice=20
Projectiles, but I think that Ray of Cold is way under-valued. =
Personally, I=20
think half damage spells should start at 8,000. Why else would you =
bother with a=20
'save for none' bolt spell, when it costs 2,500? After all, a spell that =

inflicts harm even if you resist is worth more than twice it's cost. =
Every point=20
of FT of a succesful cast has some effect. Spells that only offer the=20
possibility of inflicting harm are much less cost =
effective.</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2><FONT =
color=3D#000000></FONT></FONT><FONT=20
size=3D2>Jim.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px"><BR><FONT=20
    face=3Dsans-serif>Michael wrote:</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2><TT>I =
also note that=20
    you propose making Damnum Magnatum buyable - OK by me, but<BR>some =
might=20
    disagree. With Hellfire (and I note in Fire, <BR>Dragonflames) you =
seem to=20
    be pricing medium level blast mages out of<BR>existence - people can =
easily=20
    take years to get enough money for one of<BR>these spells.=20
    </TT></FONT><BR><BR><FONT face=3Dsans-serif>Hellfire and =
DragonFlames are NOT=20
    medium level blast spells - but a couple of the toughest spell =
available to=20
    any college.&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT> <BR><FONT=20
face=3Dsans-serif>Rosemary</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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