From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Nov 23 01:51:00 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id BAA06121; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 01:46:21 +1300 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id BAA06118 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 01:46:20 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p107-tnt1.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.111.107]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id BAA25597 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 01:38:32 +1300 Subject: Re: Good And Evil. Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 01:38:49 +1300 Message-ID: <01bf34e6$86ea7ce0$6b6f12ce@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz George Mitchinson wrote: >>1. Is it a response to the types of games being run at the moment? > >William Dymock responded: > A large number of games in my experience are being run where the >opposition is straight from the 'evil box'. This means that the opposition >is evil and irredeemable to boot. This allows the PCs to butcher and commit >other acts most civilisations would disprove of because the their actions >are justified because the victims all have an Evil Badge. > 'A large number' is empty of meaning. It could mean one, if that one were particularly big, or it could be dozens. Clearly, William means more than 'before'. What numbers does he use to support such a contention. In the past, entities like vampires have been given motivation that, frankly, offend me. I can accept, and even interested by a rationalisation that a vampire may not be 'evil' in the sense that they are somehow not elementally evil, that they aren't feasters on mortal despair, battening on the pain, fear and blood of sentients. However, I cannot accept that these creatures would not have a very ... unemotional view of human suffering. The average human doesn't agonise over the suffering of a lamb, however innocent or cute it may once have been in life. I cannot believe that undead and other creatures of similar ilk are, if not precisely evil, then in possession of a moral code at odds with, and in fact pernicious to, human existence. I prefer that any character have a consistent and individual motivation. This makes the world a richer place. Painting something as evil, and a 'legal' target of violence lacks depth, and doesn't further the richness of the game much. On the other hand, trying to pass a vampire off as 'misunderstood' is simply fatuous. Sure, give the creature some good qualities. Perhaps it is honourable. Perhaps it is tortured by it's unholy lust, and in its saner moments aches for the peace of true death. But whatever it is, it isn't a socially disadvantaged minority group. To characterise them as a misunderstood force for good, or at least not an active force for evil, just weakens their value as monsters, and weakens a part of the story world. >>2. Is it a good thing to encourage such simplified characterisations? > > > No, if only for the confusion created when players used to a simple >dichotomy or conflicting ideologies cross over into a game with the other >emphasis. I myself was suprised when the reason for commiting an act of >murder and kidnapping was 'they're evil'. OK, PCs are allowed to believe >whatever they damn well like but since I don't run games of the good/evil >persuasion it sounded odd. > If the only reason for doofing some creature over is because they're evil, then the players have failed. If, on the other hand, the things are pernicious to human life, and not reluctant to be pernicious, then I don't see a problem. For example, I would not suggest that a group of orcs is necessarily deserving of death, based on their race. On the other hand, I find it impossible to accept something as powerful as the Undead or Demons as being fine, upstanding members of the community, if only because if one is wrong, then the suffering would be widespread. Threats to a community are often called evil, just so that the sanction of morality can apply to them when visiting destruction against them. You only have to look at recent history to see how every 'enemy' of our perceived state has been called 'madmen'. In times past, they would have been people who had truck with the blackest pits of Tartarus. Objectifying a threat may not be a very pleasant human trait, but it is a human trait, and there is no particular reason not to take advantage of it. >>3. Is it actually a really complex character thing disguised as a simple "I >>wanna hit things excuse" or am I missing something here? > >I suspect so. It was the entire reason behind the ADD alignment system. You >were allowed to break and enter, murder sientient beings, commit acts of >terrorism upon other states, commit xenocide and lets not forget looting. >All this because either you were evil and couldn't help yourself or you were >good and all your victims were not. Read the modules if you don't believe >me. >> I don't trust you. That is a callow and willful misreading of alignments. They are, and were there, to provide players with another handle to attach meaning to their characters. It provided distinct boundaries of behaviour on a character. Some of it was pretty dodgy, for example the use of poison as an act of evil. But that was something introduced to control things like the use of blade venoms, so that not all characters would make use of poison. It would have been more sensibly addressed by reducing the power of venoms and toxins, however, for some reason they wanted poison use to be powerful, but a device more commonly in the hands of the DM than the players. Where the system fell down was not on the player level, but on the race and political level. No human group can function if it is predominantly evil. If a portion greater than 1% of the population is actively evil, then you don't have a social group for long. It is too disruptive. After all, the reason people form groups is to protect themselves. Morality and ethics are the means by which we live harmoniously together. If the social morals and ethics are not actively good, then the social group begins to fail.That is to say, you cannot have a neutral society, you definitely can't have an evil society, you must have a good society. Or rather, you can, but they don't last. The membership becomes disaffected and joins other social groups. For a person to stay inside an evil or neutral society, there must be no other alternatives. Having said that, the idea of racial and political morality makes more sense if one considers it to be like the 'law level' idea in Traveller. >>4. Does DQ need a more codified Good/Evil thing? > >No, if only because very few people have any idea about good/evil beyond >names for certain sides. > Drivel. Most people have a pretty good idea of what is good, and what is evil. Some things might be grey areas, but there are definitely some things one can define in those terms. It has to be judged on a case by case basis, but that doesn't stop us from identifying them. It merely makes it difficult for us to generate a rule structure that will be resonant with the ideas of good and evil, and that will always be true. So, yes, I agree with you, we shouldn't codify Good and Evil. The reason hasn't to do with how hard it is to determine what these things are. Only that defining them has been the work of philosophers down the millenia and they seem no closer to any answers. Why waste effort on something that will return a lot of heartache, and precious little advance. Jim. -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Nov 23 08:35:51 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id IAA06592; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 08:32:26 +1300 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id IAA06589 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 08:32:24 +1300 Received: from phaeton (p35-max31.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.100.163]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id IAA07462 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 08:24:27 +1300 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19991123082309.007cc100@pop.ihug.co.nz> X-Sender: phaeton@pop.ihug.co.nz X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 08:23:09 +1300 Subject: Re: Hey You Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: Keith Smith To: dq-pub@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq-pub@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a message to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq-pub@dq.sf.org.nz >>>Yes you! Go get Felicity. I want to speak to her. Now. >> >>Flamis wouldn't have been back from GreyHawke until just before the Guild >>Meeting. She turns up eventually, carrying an obviously newly-acquired and >>potent item, a black staff with red threads running up an down its length. >> >>"They told me you wanted to speak to me?" > > >Ignoring the threatening of an illusionist with a crossbow in the corner. > >"Yes, nobility. How do you do it? You're one so you should know. Exactly >what does it involve and how do you talk to the even higher ups and repress >an urge to decapitate them. Engalton is getting me to do the negotiating and >I'm beginning to think that mabye rampant meglomania is not such a bad >thing. Properly moderated of course." "Yes, I'm a noble. But in this lifetime I'm just a lesser nob, just a Lady, and I wasn't born noble. I figure it mostly works by being polite to them as has higher rank and rude to those as is lower. Sorta like hens in a hen coop." "As for resisting the urge to decapitate them... I've cremated a few nobs in my time, most of them real bad people, and not in a negotiating type situation. More in a combat type scenario." Flamis -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Nov 23 16:21:44 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id QAA07669; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 16:12:26 +1300 Received: from mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (mailhost.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.1.4]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id QAA07666 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 16:12:24 +1300 Received: from sci4 (lbr-122-42.lbrsc.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.122.42]) by mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (8.9.2/8.9.2/8.9.2-ua) with SMTP id QAA12901 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 16:04:18 +1300 (NZDT) Message-Id: <199911230304.QAA12901@mailhost.auckland.ac.nz> Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 16:03:40 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Good And Evil. X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) From: "Michael Parkinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz, dq@dq.sf.org.nz > A large number of games in my experience are being run where the > opposition is straight from the 'evil box'. This means that the opposition > is evil and irredeemable to boot. This allows the PCs to butcher and commit > other acts most civilisations would disprove of because the their actions > are justified because the victims all have an Evil Badge. Even if the characters don't particularly wish to loot & kill, there are many who function best when all-fired-up with moral indignation. However, as a GM, very few of my NPCs are "absolutely evil." Indeed I'm pleased that the most despised are generally on the side of Right [even if only by a technicality] Conversely over several adventures, guild characters have wanted to kill the pair of Vampire assassins -- not because they were evil, per se, but because (variously): i) T&G were employees of the enemy ii) T&G just happened to be in the way iii) immediate self-defence iv) anticipatory self-defence v) elimination of competitors. > 2. Is it a good thing to encourage such simplified > characterisations? No -- it's much better to see them squirming with indecision, or regrets over previously misguided action. >4. Does DQ need a more codified Good/Evil thing? Only if there are multiple codes, each with only *partial* compatibility to any of the others. We get into trouble if there is one authorized source of what is good & what is evil. E.g., almost every one thinks undead are evil -- not because the church says so, but because it is a common prejudice [& not without good reason]. Similarly I would prefer if, say, between one-third & two-thirds guildmembers felt dealing with demons was not (in & of itself) evil; yet 99% of the guild thinks its just bloody dangerous. regards, Michael Michael Parkinson Mathematics & Statistics Subject Librarian Science Library, University of Auckland, Private Bag 92019, AUCKLAND, N.Z. Email: m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz Phone: (09) 3737 599 x 5858 Fax: (09) 3082 304 -------------------------------------------------------------- This is true for all of science. Successes were largely due to forgetting completely about what one wanted ... in refusing to investigate things which profit, and relying solely on guidance by criteria of intellectual elegance; it was by following this rule that one actually got ahead in the long run, much better than any strictly utilitarian course would have permitted. -- von Neumann (1954) in "The Neumann Compendium" edited by Brody & Vamos (1995) ======================================================================== -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Nov 23 16:51:59 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id QAA07741; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 16:48:28 +1300 Received: from peace.com (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id QAA07738 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 16:48:26 +1300 Message-ID: <383A0C83.369918E8@peace.com> Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 16:39:47 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Good And Evil. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Michael Woodhams To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Michael Parkinson wrote: > >4. Does DQ need a more codified Good/Evil thing? > > Only if there are multiple codes, each with only *partial* > compatibility to any of the others. We get into trouble if there is > one authorized source of what is good & what is evil. E.g., almost > every one thinks undead are evil -- not because the church says so, > but because it is a common prejudice [& not without good reason]. > > Similarly I would prefer if, say, between one-third & two-thirds > guildmembers felt dealing with demons was not (in & of itself) evil; > yet 99% of the guild thinks its just bloody dangerous. Along these lines, how about more interaction with the 'nice' demons? Generally the guild meets Aim, Belial etc. - the 'pain and destruction should be maximized' demons. There are others who seem reasonable chaps - looking at my Demonology, I see for example Barbatos, the Duke of Virtues; Bathin, the Pale Duke; Gusion, the Wise Duke. How did these demons come about? The standard mythology is that very powerful Elves (primarily Drow) or groups of Elves surpassed death to become the demons, and the Powers of Light came from groups of Elves opposed to them. Were the progenetors of these demons allied with the progenitors of the nasty demons, and if so, why? Why is it that these not-so-nasty demons hang out in hell rather than with Rafi and co, or by themselves? Do they really hang out in hell, or have we been duped by Michaeline propaganda? One possible explanation is that they were once nasty but have become more mild - quite reasonable *if* the nature of powers is affected by their worshipers - the nasty-but-less-so-than-others demons get the most mild worshipers, and get progressively nicer and more constructive as time goes on. (But such change over time may not fit other aspects of the mythology/cosmology.) Note that if you want to GM with 'nice' demons, you should give ample warning so that fanatic anti-demon characters don't come along and end up with players either having to break character or abandon the adventure (unless your adventure can stand having the players oppose the 'nice' demons, of course.) Michael W. -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Nov 23 17:21:17 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id RAA07789; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 17:14:10 +1300 Received: from qedweb.qed.co.nz ([203.97.23.140] (may be forged)) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id RAA07786 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 17:14:08 +1300 Received: by QEDWEB with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 17:05:19 +1300 Message-ID: Subject: RE: Good And Evil. Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 17:05:09 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain From: Stephen Martin To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Why, only recently one of these nice demons you mention was reviled for doing good. He successfully stopped some of his collegues from opening a portal from the 7th plane to Alusia. Just because he didn't explain his plan to the party, but instead took the approach of manipulating them to achieve the right end in the most expedient manner. Mortals are so hard to deal with; ungrateful, unpredictable, distrustful... still when good must be done you use the tools that are at hand [sigh]. One or two adventurers perform evil acts, even genocide, and the rest of you expect to get treated fairly. Yet one or two evil demons perform evil acts and the whole of demon kind gets labelled as evil - is this fair? Cheers, ^Stephen^. The Devils Advocate. > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael Woodhams [SMTP:michaelw@peace.com] > Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 1999 4:40 PM > > Along these lines, how about more interaction with the 'nice' demons? > Generally the > guild meets Aim, Belial etc. - the 'pain and destruction should be > maximized' > demons. There are others who seem reasonable chaps - looking at my > Demonology, > I see for example Barbatos, the Duke of Virtues; Bathin, the Pale Duke; > Gusion, the > Wise Duke. > > -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Nov 23 18:21:24 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id SAA07903; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 18:13:53 +1300 Received: from fclaklmr03.fcl.co.nz (mail.fcl.co.nz [203.98.14.148]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id SAA07900 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 18:13:51 +1300 Received: from falaklex00.falum.co.nz - 10.8.1.28 by fclaklmr03.fcl.co.nz with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1774.114.11); Tue, 23 Nov 1999 18:05:25 +1300 Received: by FALAKLEX00 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 18:09:24 +1300 Message-ID: <311B3C3DD32FD311B33900805F770A725FB4D6@FALAKLEX00> Subject: RE: Good And Evil. Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 18:09:23 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01BF3570.E83C2900" From: "Andrew Withy (FAL AKL)" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF3570.E83C2900 Content-Type: text/plain Met Bathin the Pale Duke last night. We wanted to overtake his group on a jungle trail so he thought he'd frame us for treason then kill us all. Apart from his sense of humour, he is as sick and perverted as the rest of the sideshow freaks. A Demon is a Demon is a Demon. Honourably yours, Sir Christopher Reynard Greatest Living Swordsman on Alusia > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael Woodhams [SMTP:michaelw@peace.com] > > Along these lines, how about more interaction with the 'nice' demons? > Generally the > guild meets Aim, Belial etc. - the 'pain and destruction should be > maximized' > demons. There are others who seem reasonable chaps - looking at my > Demonology, > I see for example Barbatos, the Duke of Virtues; Bathin, the Pale Duke; > Gusion, the > Wise Duke. > ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF3570.E83C2900 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Good And Evil.

Met Bathin the Pale = Duke last night. We wanted to overtake his group on a jungle trail so = he thought he'd frame us for treason then kill us all. Apart from his = sense of humour, he is as sick and perverted as the rest of the = sideshow freaks. A Demon is a Demon is a Demon.

Honourably = yours,


Sir Christopher = Reynard
Greatest Living = Swordsman on Alusia

    -----Original Message-----
    From:   Michael Woodhams = [SMTP:michaelw@peace.com]

    Along these lines, how about more = interaction with the 'nice' demons? Generally the
    guild meets Aim, Belial etc. - the = 'pain and destruction should be maximized'
    demons. There are others who seem = reasonable chaps - looking at my Demonology,
    I see for example Barbatos, the Duke = of Virtues; Bathin, the Pale Duke; Gusion, the
    Wise Duke.

------_=_NextPart_001_01BF3570.E83C2900-- -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Nov 23 19:21:16 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id TAA07979; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 19:12:53 +1300 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id TAA07976 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 19:12:52 +1300 Received: from ihug.co.nz (p350-tnt4.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.104.110]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id TAA14240 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 19:04:38 +1300 Message-ID: <383A2E35.756983FD@ihug.co.nz> Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 19:03:34 +1300 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Notice posted by Bozo on 5th Thaw Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: scott To: dq-pub@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq-pub@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq-pub@dq.sf.org.nz I am around and able to talk what would you like to know. Being a greater werewolf can be a pain. Rothgar Brent Jackson wrote: > ATTENTION ADVENTURERS > > I am seeking information about an > adventure that took place 8 or 9 > years ago that involved investig- > ating odd occurences near Slippery > Rock. One of the party turned > into a Werewolf on the adventure. > > Could anyone with information > please write it below, or meet > with me here this evening at 6 pm. > > Bozo Crambelly > > -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Nov 23 19:31:00 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id TAA08011; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 19:24:12 +1300 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id TAA08008 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 19:24:11 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p5-tnt2.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.245.5]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id TAA01855 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 19:15:53 +1300 Subject: Re: Good And Evil. Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 19:15:35 +1300 Message-ID: <01bf357a$27b32f80$05f56dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Michael Woodhams wrote: >Along these lines, how about more interaction with the 'nice' demons? Generally the >guild meets Aim, Belial etc. - the 'pain and destruction should be maximized' >demons. There are others who seem reasonable chaps - looking at my Demonology, >I see for example Barbatos, the Duke of Virtues; Bathin, the Pale Duke; Gusion, the >Wise Duke. > >How did these demons come about? The standard mythology is that very powerful Elves >(primarily Drow) or groups of Elves surpassed death to become the demons, and the >Powers of Light came from groups of Elves opposed to them. Were the progenetors of >these demons allied with the progenitors of the nasty demons, and if so, why? According to standard Demonlogy, Demons fall into two broad categories. They are either fallen angels, or they are false gods, which is to say that they are deific figures that are, however, not capable of creating life, the world and everything. That, it would appear, is the province of God. Fallen angels personify some particular form of evil or great sin, for example Nebiros, who declined to fight with Michael against Satan and his hordes, because he had previously given his word to serve Satan before his fall, and would not dishonour his given word. The sin that he is supposed to represent is pride. False gods, on the other hand, attempt to gain followers, again and again. They spread their attentions widely to garner worshippers and cultists. Presumably, they derive some benefit from such a practice. Whatever else they are, they are supposed to be elementally evil. Even if they seem nice, they are in fact working to defeat and confound human goodness wherever it may occur. Demons are supposed to be cunning and clever at concealing their evil. Other rationalisations are just that. Other rationalisations. They have no more 'game veracity' than any other DMs opinion of where they come from. Some of these rationalisations are better, have more style, and offer more story depth than others. This one about elves, however, lacks all three. > >Note that if you want to GM with 'nice' demons, you should give ample warning so >that fanatic anti-demon characters don't come along and end up with players either >having to break character or abandon the adventure (unless your adventure can stand >having the players oppose the 'nice' demons, of course.) > Thank you, Michael, for your willingness to offer advice to people who spend, on average, four times as much time on a game than a player does. When you have taken up the gauntlet and DMed, perhaps then this suggestion will seem less ... trite. Jim. -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Nov 23 23:21:10 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id XAA08419; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 23:10:54 +1300 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id XAA08416 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 23:10:52 +1300 Received: from dworkin (p12-tnt7.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.203.12]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id XAA09323 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 23:02:35 +1300 Message-ID: <003401bf359b$4ebbd980$4301a8c0@dworkin.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: Hey You Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 23:12:53 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 From: "Dworkin" To: dq-pub@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq-pub@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq-pub@dq.sf.org.nz >>>>Yes you! Go get Felicity. I want to speak to her. Now. >>> >>>Flamis wouldn't have been back from GreyHawke until just before the Guild >>>Meeting. She turns up eventually, carrying an obviously newly-acquired and >>>potent item, a black staff with red threads running up an down its length. >>> >>>"They told me you wanted to speak to me?" >> >> >>Ignoring the threatening of an illusionist with a crossbow in the corner. >> >>"Yes, nobility. How do you do it? You're one so you should know. Exactly >>what does it involve and how do you talk to the even higher ups and repress >>an urge to decapitate them. Engalton is getting me to do the negotiating and >>I'm beginning to think that mabye rampant meglomania is not such a bad >>thing. Properly moderated of course." > >"Yes, I'm a noble. But in this lifetime I'm just a lesser nob, just a Lady, >and I wasn't born noble. I figure it mostly works by being polite to them >as has higher rank and rude to those as is lower. Sorta like hens in a hen >coop." > >"As for resisting the urge to decapitate them... I've cremated a few nobs >in my time, most of them real bad people, and not in a negotiating type >situation. More in a combat type scenario." > If we keep this whole bird metaphor then I'm afraid I am of the raptor family and expecting me to live peacefully in a hen coop is like getting Stark to coordinate your battle strategy. This is not helping you know. Liessa -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers --