From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Nov 25 01:44:37 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id BAA11261; Thu, 25 Nov 1999 01:39:03 +1300 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id BAA11258 for ; Thu, 25 Nov 1999 01:39:01 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p87-tnt6.akl.ihug.co.nz [216.100.154.87]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id BAA14447 for ; Thu, 25 Nov 1999 01:30:04 +1300 Subject: Re: Good And Evil. Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 01:29:43 +1300 Message-ID: <01bf3677$965abb80$579a64d8@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz -----Original Message----- From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Date: Wednesday, 24 November 1999 09:06 Subject: Re: Good And Evil. >Jim Arona wrote: > >> According to standard Demonlogy, Demons fall into two broad categories. >> They are either fallen angels, or they are false gods, which is to say that >> they are deific figures that are, however, not capable of creating life, the >> world and everything. That, it would appear, is the province of God. Martin Dickson wrote: >Standard Demonology/Angelology also depends on the (at least notional) existence >of an ultimate power... God/Allah/Call it what you will. Possibly. > >Fallen angels (Lucifer, etc) must fall from the grace of a higher power... >similarly false gods (baal, moloch) can only be false in comparison with a true >god. > >Since no such highest power has ever existed in the commonly shared DQ universe >it is hard for angels or demons to take their usual cosmological/theological >place and other rationales must be sought -- either by GMs or at the very least >by mortal philosophers. > Crap. You cannot say that it has NEVER existed. This is a role playing game. Not the world according to Martin. Merely because it hasn't been previously established, that does not mean that the world MUST conform to those constraints. That merely means that YOU have chosen those constraints. >> Whatever else they are, they are supposed to be elementally evil. Even >> if they seem nice, they are in fact working to defeat and confound human >> goodness wherever it may occur. Demons are supposed to be cunning and clever >> at concealing their evil. > >Evil, and cunning and clever... agreed. The point here is that they may *seem* >nice...; but they are really manipulating mortals to their own nefarious ends. >As for elementally evil... I think once more this is a case of being in direct >and absolute opposition to a higher power or principle of good... something DQ >mythology lacks. > And, again, crap. DQ mythology only has the kind of existence that is given to it. How you choose to populate your religious bestiary is your affair. It isn't mine. Yours is a colourless and drab rationalisation, with little in the way of colour to give it savour. I prefer a rationalisation that has resonances outside of what I percieve as a sweaty, incestuous, self-involved, contrived, and uninspiring obsession with cleverness. I could live with it if it were one DM's vision. However, it's sold as 'the way the world is'. I'm not prepared to buy it. And I won't have anything to do with it. -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Nov 25 08:44:14 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id IAA11723; Thu, 25 Nov 1999 08:37:29 +1300 Received: from peace.com (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id IAA11720 for ; Thu, 25 Nov 1999 08:37:27 +1300 Message-ID: <383C3C29.D4CBAA07@peace.com> Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 08:27:37 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Good And Evil. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Jim Arona wrote: > [Martin] Since no such highest power has ever existed in the commonly shared > DQ universe... > Crap. You cannot say that it has NEVER existed. This is a role playing > game. Not the world according to Martin. Merely because it hasn't been > previously established, that does not mean that the world MUST conform to > those constraints. That merely means that YOU have chosen those constraints. I will re-phrase and expand for greater clarity. When I began playing and then GMing DQ in the mid 80's there was no organized religion in DQ. The powers of Light and Darkness existed in totality in the way they are described in the DQII rule book. That is to say, there is an entire paragraph detailing the whole PoL and the descriptions of the demons but no overarching explanation. Some of the early GMs were very concerned that introducing a pseudo-Judaeo/Christian religion into DQ could offend players with real world religious beliefs. There were implications that there were at least some higher powers in the universe -- One PC who tried to start up the "Church of the Great Turtle" (or something similar) in Seagate was given a chance to repent his blasphemies (by someone/something) and when he refused was transformed into a small bright satellite that orbits Alusia. Anyway... we had a bunch of "Angels" -- who seldom interfered with humanity -- and a bunch of demons who often did, demons who had been lifted wholesale from medieval Christian demonology and thus cried out for an ultimate power, and a number of GMs who were opposed to introducing real world religion... or an ultimate true god. Later various GMs introduced other elements of Earth mythology -- Celtic, Norse, Greek, etc... and god and religions from other RPGs, novels, etc. I know that we differ in philosophy on what "shared universe" means, but for me it means trying wherever possible to maintain a sensible (or at least consistent) story line, in much the same way as writers of a shared world anthology... or, what might be a good analogy, the universes of the big comic companies -- DC and Marvel -- dozens of writers, working on dozens of stories with hundreds of characters, and at least an attempt at a consistent cosmology. If someone drops a troll kingdom into the Baronies, or releases a swarm of demons, or whatever, we as the other GMs have a choice, we can ignore it and claim that it didn't happen in our version of reality (even if we then use the same notional part of Alusia) or we accept it and incorporate it into our world view. I have generally chosen to try and incorporate other GM's creations on Alusia -- which I see as the real *shared* part of the world. To do this I have to know about them. If a GM creates something then tells no one is there really a creation? If players report to the Times (or whatever) what they saw then the information becomes public and useful. So... whilst you are quite right in saying that I cannot state that something has never existed, I can state that "one true god" was not an extant part of the DQ universe when I started and has not, to the best of my knowledge, been a common meme throughout the years I have been playing. "Your mileage may vary", as they say. > I prefer a rationalisation that has resonances outside of what I percieve as a > sweaty, incestuous, > self-involved, contrived, and uninspiring obsession with cleverness. Sweaty, incestuous and self involved? Sounds like Greek mythology. - Martin -- _/_/ Peace Software New Zealand Ltd Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com _/ Martin Dickson Fax : +64-9-373-0401 Analyst Phone: +64-9-373-0400 -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Nov 25 09:14:15 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id JAA11777; Thu, 25 Nov 1999 09:12:50 +1300 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id JAA11774 for ; Thu, 25 Nov 1999 09:12:49 +1300 Received: from phaeton (p8-tnt7.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.203.8]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id JAA08914 for ; Thu, 25 Nov 1999 09:03:44 +1300 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19991125085201.007cbe00@pop.ihug.co.nz> X-Sender: phaeton@pop.ihug.co.nz X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 08:52:01 +1300 Subject: Satellites (Was: Good And Evil.) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: Keith Smith To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz >There were implications that there were at least some higher powers in the >universe -- One PC who tried to start up the "Church of the Great Turtle" (or >something similar) in Seagate was given a chance to repent his blasphemies (by >someone/something) and when he refused was transformed into a small bright >satellite that orbits Alusia. Now this sounds like something that should be known as part of the 'shared history'. I've heard a little about this although one version had the satellite parked permanently above Seagate Harbour. So what's the current story with this object? Does it move in the sky relative to the 'fixed' stars. If so, it could have astrological signifucance, maybe being a represetation of Seagate and the Guild. Speaking of the 'histories', if anyone wants to do a history of the Guild, we'd like to see one in the Seagate Times. Keith (phaeton@ihug.co.nz) -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Nov 25 12:59:34 1999 Received: (from martin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id MAA12297; Thu, 25 Nov 1999 12:45:37 +1300 Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 12:45:37 +1300 Message-Id: <199911242345.MAA12297@mail.sf.org.nz> Subject: service restored From: martin@kurahaupo.gen.nz (Martin D Kealey) To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz There has been a outage of about half an hour on the mail server; sorry for the interruption. -Martin. -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Nov 25 13:14:41 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id NAA12355; Thu, 25 Nov 1999 13:09:49 +1300 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id NAA12352 for ; Thu, 25 Nov 1999 13:09:48 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p140-tnt2.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.245.140]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id NAA09291 for ; Thu, 25 Nov 1999 13:00:37 +1300 Subject: Fw: Good and Evil Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 13:00:28 +1300 Message-ID: <01bf36d8$153824a0$8cf56dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0098_01BF3745.0C316CA0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0098_01BF3745.0C316CA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -----Original Message----- From: Jim Arona To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Date: Thursday, 25 November 1999 12:16 Subject: Good and Evil The original message was received at Thu, 25 Nov 1999 12:15:55 +1300 from tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14] ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors ----- "|/etc/mail/approve -Rb dq@dq.sf.org.nz" (expanded from: ) ----- Transcript of session follows ----- 554 "|/etc/mail/approve -Rb dq@dq.sf.org.nz"... Internal error: Error 0 ------=_NextPart_000_0098_01BF3745.0C316CA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Jim Arona <jimarona@ihug.co.nz>
To:= dq@dq.sf.org.nz <dq@dq.sf.org.nz>
Date: = Thursday,=20 25 November 1999 12:16
Subject: Good and = Evil

The original message was received at Thu, 25 Nov 1999 12:15:55=20 +1300
from tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]

   ----- = The=20 following addresses had permanent fatal errors = -----
"|/etc/mail/approve=20 -Rb dq@dq.sf.org.nz"
  =  =20 (expanded from: <dq@dq.sf.org.nz>)

 &nb= sp; -----=20 Transcript of session follows -----
554 "|/etc/mail/approve -Rb = dq@dq.sf.org.nz"... Internal = error:=20 Error 0
------=_NextPart_000_0098_01BF3745.0C316CA0-- -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Nov 25 16:14:31 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id QAA12749; Thu, 25 Nov 1999 16:10:27 +1300 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id QAA12746 for ; Thu, 25 Nov 1999 16:10:25 +1300 Received: from paul (p47-max14.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.227.239]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id QAA04927 for ; Thu, 25 Nov 1999 16:01:10 +1300 Message-ID: <000201bf36f1$ad4d3640$6564640a@paul> Subject: Re: Good And Evil. Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 16:02:45 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 From: "Paul Schmidt" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: "Paul Schmidt" , dq@dq.sf.org.nz The trouble with our current shared "mythology" is that it as flavoursome as oatmeal - completely bland. The Angels etc are clearly lifted by persons who were fans of the Dernai novels and lack any kind of spark. The deomons are even worse - no more mythic, titantic creation stories of Good or evil. Our demons are just pastiches of tired elves or bored dragons - they lack "mythic" evil,they lack prescence. I for one like the introduction of other pantheons like the Norse etc - at least good and evil loom large in these mythologies, even if they don't satisy in other ways. Frankly the various Michaelines etc are boring and staid - much better to have a world full of roaring old gods, mad gods, evil gods and pantheons in competition than our current set up. Boring! Also, of course, the current set up is "inhuman" and lack any real connection to humans on an emotional level. Paul -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Nov 25 18:44:43 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id SAA13087; Thu, 25 Nov 1999 18:38:38 +1300 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id SAA13084 for ; Thu, 25 Nov 1999 18:38:37 +1300 Received: from dworkin (p189-tnt7.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.203.189]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id SAA02254; Thu, 25 Nov 1999 18:29:12 +1300 Message-ID: <001401bf3707$75b729a0$4301a8c0@dworkin.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Mythology 101 Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 18:39:02 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 From: "Dworkin" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz >The trouble with our current shared "mythology" is that it as flavoursome as >oatmeal - completely bland. The Angels etc are clearly lifted by persons who >were fans of the Dernai novels and lack any kind of spark. >The deomons are even worse - no more mythic, titantic creation stories of >Good or evil. Our demons are just pastiches of tired elves or bored >dragons - they lack "mythic" evil,they lack prescence. >I for one like the introduction of other pantheons like the Norse etc - at >least good and evil loom large in these mythologies, even if they don't >satisy in other ways. >Frankly the various Michaelines etc are boring and staid - much better to >have a world full of roaring old gods, mad gods, evil gods and pantheons in >competition than our current set up. >Boring! >Also, of course, the current set up is "inhuman" and lack any real >connection to humans on an emotional level. >Paul > Righto then, lets make a mythology. I mean were all sublimy superior beings capable of acts of outrageous creation (GMs). I remember reading in a Dragon magazine a workable solution since ol' ADD has a wee problem explaining all the devils, demons, deamons, planitars and other looneys not to mention all the gods lumbering round. No I dont have the issue in question but it had a good picture and was from the last 6 years (so thats only 72 to check). Basically the Angels and Demons are a loose band of servants to the various good, bad and screamingly insane gods. Like temps, but with nukes. God A comes up with a plan in the worlds of mortals and gathers a band of angels/demons (depending on preference) who then go and make their wicked/ineffable way with said plan. Mortals however have the option of directly appealing to the gods themselves as well as their servants. Thus we get the left hand having no idea at all that there ever was a right hand as plans get changed by grass-roots opinion. In this set-up you get your pantheons of colourful good, bad and looney dieties; beautific angels and dispicable demons. The angels/demons will have their own followers and it's not inconcievable that the Western Church in these dark times has forgotten about the gods. But adventures about the old gods trying to reestablish themselves against both the machinations of the demons (who have profited in the interregnum) and the Western Church keen to hold on to its powerbase as dominant religion could only be interesting. William -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Nov 25 19:44:32 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id TAA13173; Thu, 25 Nov 1999 19:40:29 +1300 Received: from enterprise.iconz.co.nz (enterprise.iconz.co.nz [210.48.22.40]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id TAA13170 for ; Thu, 25 Nov 1999 19:40:27 +1300 Received: (qmail 11483 invoked from network); 25 Nov 1999 06:31:43 -0000 Received: from e0.firewall.ak.iconz.net.nz (HELO Escher) (202.14.100.208) by enterprise.iconz.co.nz with SMTP; 25 Nov 1999 06:31:43 -0000 Subject: Demonology Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 19:29:45 +1300 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2918.2701 From: "Mandos Mitchinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > And, again, crap. DQ mythology only has the kind of existence that is > given to it. How you choose to populate your religious bestiary is your > affair. It isn't mine. Yours is a colourless and drab > rationalisation, with > little in the way of colour to give it savour. I prefer a rationalisation > that has resonances outside of what I percieve as a sweaty, incestuous, > self-involved, contrived, and uninspiring obsession with cleverness. > I could live with it if it were one DM's vision. However, it's sold as > 'the way the world is'. I'm not prepared to buy it. And I won't have > anything to do with it. I think there is lots of colour, you just have to add it. There are plenty of personalities to work with, enough aims goals and objectives that you can do just about anything. As long as you are willing to put in the small amount of work to make it enjoyable. Of course the lazy approach is simply to ignore anything anyone else has done cos it take thought to interact with it, and so this is why we have no colour in the gods and demons because no one is willing to add to the previous work because they are too busy denying that anyone else's work has any worth. Mandos /s -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers --