From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Nov 26 01:14:17 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id BAA13553; Fri, 26 Nov 1999 01:00:00 +1300 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id AAA13550 for ; Fri, 26 Nov 1999 00:59:58 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p138-tnt6.akl.ihug.co.nz [216.100.154.138]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id AAA08687 for ; Fri, 26 Nov 1999 00:50:30 +1300 Subject: Re: Demonology Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 00:42:40 +1300 Message-ID: <01bf373a$2dbc28c0$LocalHost@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz -----Original Message----- From: Mandos Mitchinson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Date: Thursday, 25 November 1999 19:35 Subject: Demonology >> And, again, crap. DQ mythology only has the kind of existence that is >> given to it. How you choose to populate your religious bestiary is your >> affair. It isn't mine. Yours is a colourless and drab >> rationalisation, with >> little in the way of colour to give it savour. I prefer a rationalisation >> that has resonances outside of what I percieve as a sweaty, incestuous, >> self-involved, contrived, and uninspiring obsession with cleverness. >> I could live with it if it were one DM's vision. However, it's sold as >> 'the way the world is'. I'm not prepared to buy it. And I won't have >> anything to do with it. > >I think there is lots of colour, you just have to add it. There are plenty >of personalities to work with, enough aims goals and objectives that you can >do just about anything. As long as you are willing to put in the small >amount of work to make it enjoyable. Of course the lazy approach is simply >to ignore anything anyone else has done cos it take thought to interact with >it, and so this is why we have no colour in the gods and demons because no >one is willing to add to the previous work because they are too busy denying >that anyone else's work has any worth. Thank you for teaching me how to suck eggs, George. When you have done anything like the amount of work on demonology, then I suggest you may have a point, other than the one on the top of your head. In the meantime, I suggest you actually read what I've written about demonology. I put it to you that that analysis implies a great deal of work. On top of anything else, to add to the current rationalisation merely gives it credence, when in fact it is an impoverishing rationalisation, and a limiting one. I'm not saying that the rest of the Guild has to buy into my rationalisation. I am saying that I can't abide something as jejune as this one. I take the option to ignore it. I encourage others to follow suit, rather than follow slavishly in the footsteps of a stumbling, limping construction such as this represents. Jim. -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Nov 26 08:44:24 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id IAA14077; Fri, 26 Nov 1999 08:40:02 +1300 Received: from peace.com (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id IAA14073 for ; Fri, 26 Nov 1999 08:39:59 +1300 Message-ID: <383D8E19.74D5F84F@peace.com> Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 08:29:29 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Good And Evil. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Paul Schmidt wrote: > The Angels etc are clearly lifted by persons who > were fans of the Dernai novels and lack any kind of spark. Dernai? Do you perhaps mean Deryni? (from Katherine Kurtz's novels... which I vaguely recall have the Archangel Michael in them) -- the other option would appear to be Drenai, from the David Gemmel books... which don't have angels as I recall, but do have "the thirty", religious, meditative warrior monks... who might make a good fantasy model for Michaelines. The DQ angels were named and introduced over time but generally conform to the Archangels of conventional angelology. I don't know if the Deryni novels had an influence -- I know they didn't on me, 'cos I found them "as flavoursome as oatmeal". I suspect that her angelology (what I recall of it) was simply drawn from the same original root sources. > The deomons are even worse - no more mythic, titantic creation stories of > Good or evil. Our demons are just pastiches of tired elves or bored > dragons - they lack "mythic" evil,they lack prescence. > [sinp] > Also, of course, the current set up is "inhuman" and lack any real > connection to humans on an emotional level. So, you want mythic, titanic creation stories that connect at a "human" level? I would suggest that the two are somewhat exclusive. To have human emotional content one must presumably have protagonists with human level emotions... which is probably why throughout earth mythology most deities have the manners of a petulant two year old. Without wishing to offend anyone's real world religious sensibilities -- the coldly mythic creation stories certainly don't grab me on an emotional level. "The great deity waved his hand/nostrils/tentacle over the void and *pampf* the word was created." This might explain in part the medieval fascination with demons and angels. Real world angel/demonology is also "inhuman". As Jim stated, conventional demonology has then as either fallen angels (inhuman, previous creation servants of the creator) or false gods (inhuman deities). The fact that angels/demons are not mortal of-woman-born humans hinders our emotional connection with them, but although inhuman they are easier to understand if you assign them human emotions/ pleasures /sins /virtues... and it might be from this that demons are easier to understand than angels. What was the one Jim mentioned? Nebiros... "who declined to fight with Michael against Satan and his hordes, because he had previously given his word to serve Satan before his fall, and would not dishonour his given word. The sin that he is supposed to represent is pride." But he would also appear to represent honour, and loyalty -- virtues. The pride would appear to come from believing that his word was important enough to commit treason for. This makes him them a tragic figure and understandable on a human level. If you take away this tragedy then he becomes yet another 4-colour classic comic bad guy, "I do what I do because I'm bad and I like it", and looses depth and interest. At worst -- in an RPG -- he becomes nothing more than a really dangerous orc. As for "tired elves" and "bored dragons"... well maybe what I have written has failed to set the tone correctly... but then flavour is also a personal thing and I certainly don't expect that you and I will find the same flavours appealing. I think "mythic" evil is what you make of it, and we don't need to slavishly follow real world practice, or the practice of another well-known RPG. I thought that the idea that the modern elves (bearing in mind that they make up a fair percentage of PCs) are the shattered remnants of a once mighty race who in their pride and hubris "turned to the dark side" went some way towards making them more than just humans with pointy ears. YMMV. - Martin -- _/_/ Peace Software New Zealand Ltd Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com _/ Martin Dickson Fax : +64-9-373-0401 Analyst Phone: +64-9-373-0400 -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Nov 26 09:44:43 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id JAA14152; Fri, 26 Nov 1999 09:31:20 +1300 Received: from enterprise.iconz.co.nz (enterprise.iconz.co.nz [210.48.22.40]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id JAA14149 for ; Fri, 26 Nov 1999 09:31:19 +1300 Received: (qmail 25992 invoked from network); 25 Nov 1999 20:22:06 -0000 Received: from mandos.internet.co.nz (HELO mandos) (210.48.42.117) by enterprise.iconz.co.nz with SMTP; 25 Nov 1999 20:22:06 -0000 Subject: RE: Demonology Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 09:12:53 +1300 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 From: "Mandos D Shadowspawn Esq" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Thank you for teaching me how to suck eggs, George. When you have done > anything like the amount of work on demonology, then I suggest > you may have a point, other than the one on the top of your head. > In the meantime, I suggest you actually read what I've written about > demonology. I put it to you that that analysis implies a great > deal of work. > On top of anything else, to add to the current rationalisation merely > gives it credence, when in fact it is an impoverishing > rationalisation, and > a limiting one. I'm not saying that the rest of the Guild has to > buy into my rationalisation. I am saying that I can't abide something as > jejune as this one. I take the option to ignore it. I encourage others > to follow suit, rather than follow slavishly in the footsteps of a > stumbling, limping construction such as this represents. Is it available to read anywhere? I am always keen to see another view point. Mandos /s -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Nov 26 09:59:30 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id JAA14197; Fri, 26 Nov 1999 09:54:04 +1300 Received: from peace.com (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id JAA14194 for ; Fri, 26 Nov 1999 09:54:02 +1300 Message-ID: <383D9F8E.1BF5F675@peace.com> Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 09:43:58 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Good And Evil. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Michael Woodhams To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz I tried to send this last night, but for some reason my computer didn't believe in the DQ email address. Paul Schmidt wrote: > The trouble with our current shared "mythology" is that it as flavoursome as > oatmeal - completely bland. The Angels etc are clearly lifted by persons who > were fans of the Dernai novels and lack any kind of spark. The idea of four archangels predates the Deryni novels. Probably, DQ having four archangels predates the Deryni novels, but I'm not certain on that. > The deomons are even worse - no more mythic, titantic creation stories of > Good or evil. Our demons are just pastiches of tired elves or bored > dragons - they lack "mythic" evil,they lack prescence. They seem like pretty standard FRP demons to me in behaviour - except that some demons, under some GMs, are fairly benevolent. I take it it is the creation myth behind demons that you particularly object to? > I for one like the introduction of other pantheons like the Norse etc - at > least good and evil loom large in these mythologies, even if they don't > satisy in other ways. I think too many pantheons is worse than one bland one. I think we currently have three - the angels/demons, an Elven/Celtic one, and a Dwarven/Norse one. There are probably a few extra gods floating around. I feel this is enough - it greatly cheapens gods if there are too many of them. It is hard to impress people with a god if nobody in the party remembers who they are. However, if you find the angels/demons boring, we do have the two alternatives. And other planes can have entire new pantheons. > Frankly the various Michaelines etc are boring and staid - much better to We must have met different Michaelines. > have a world full of roaring old gods, mad gods, evil gods and pantheons in > competition than our current set up. Classical mythology has gods within one pantheon in competition. I don't recall any cases of pantheons in competition, and the idea doesn't appeal to me much. I guess this is a matter of taste. > Boring! > Also, of course, the current set up is "inhuman" and lack any real > connection to humans on an emotional level. Could you expand on this? If you can explain to us what you think is lacking, we might be able to put it in. It is a general problem with the multi-GM setup. You pretty much have to have one of inconsistency, authoritarianism or blandness. I feel inconsistency is the least desirable of these, and the ranking of the other two depends on the autocrat. Incidentally, I think this discussion is more likely to improve the game than rules changes. Michael. -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Nov 26 10:29:47 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id KAA14234; Fri, 26 Nov 1999 10:21:08 +1300 Received: from peace.com (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id KAA14231 for ; Fri, 26 Nov 1999 10:21:06 +1300 Message-ID: <383DA5C6.F3E41854@peace.com> Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 10:10:30 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Good And Evil. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Michael Woodhams wrote: > Paul Schmidt wrote: > > > The trouble with our current shared "mythology" is that it as flavoursome as > > oatmeal - completely bland. The Angels etc are clearly lifted by persons who > > were fans of the Dernai novels and lack any kind of spark. > > The idea of four archangels predates the Deryni novels. Probably, DQ > having four archangels predates the Deryni novels, but I'm not certain on that. The number of named Archangels varies depending on the source and (from memory) ranges in number between about 4 and 9... I seem to recall 7 is quite common. I think the most common names in common (if you see what I mean) is Michael and then Raphael and Garbriel -- which IIRC are the only three archangels named in the bible... and even then Raphael only manages to make it into the apocryphal book of Tobit. I can check my "big book of angels" at home and let you know if you'd like. Cheers, Martin -- _/_/ Peace Software New Zealand Ltd Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com _/ Martin Dickson Fax : +64-9-373-0401 Analyst Phone: +64-9-373-0400 -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Nov 26 10:59:47 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id KAA14279; Fri, 26 Nov 1999 10:52:44 +1300 Received: from mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (mailhost.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.1.4]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id KAA14276 for ; Fri, 26 Nov 1999 10:52:33 +1300 Received: from sci4 (lbr-122-42.lbrsc.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.122.42]) by mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (8.9.2/8.9.2/8.9.2-ua) with SMTP id KAA13488 for ; Fri, 26 Nov 1999 10:42:47 +1300 (NZDT) Message-Id: <199911252142.KAA13488@mailhost.auckland.ac.nz> Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 10:42:08 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Good And Evil. X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) From: "Michael Parkinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz, dq@dq.sf.org.nz Dear all, > I think too many pantheons is worse than one bland one. I think we > currently have three - the angels/demons, an Elven/Celtic one, and > a Dwarven/Norse one. There are probably a few extra gods floating > around. I feel this is enough - it greatly cheapens gods if there > are too many of them. It is hard to impress people with a god if > nobody in the party remembers who they are. Actually I have long used a Greek pantheon for the Ellenic city-states in the old land-locked sea (I'll have to check where this has shifted to on the "new" map). However the most that guild members ever encounter are the occasional petty godling, normally apotheosised hero(in)es such as Ino; or human hemi-demi-semideities that may have an unusual talent or stat but are pretty much human but who also claim archaic descent from one of the big-name deities. As for the Gods themselves, including the big 12 (or 14), all the locals know that they seldom-to-never interfere in the affairs of current-day mortals although the legends of their long-distant ancestors relate much more direct manifestation. No-one has yet explained whether this is a result of Panjari, divine boredom, the departure of the Gods, or the modern lack of piety compared with the fervour of days of old, or whatever ... regards, Michael Michael Parkinson Mathematics & Statistics Subject Librarian Science Library, University of Auckland, Private Bag 92019, AUCKLAND, N.Z. Email: m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz Phone: (09) 3737 599 x 5858 Fax: (09) 3082 304 -------------------------------------------------------------- This is true for all of science. Successes were largely due to forgetting completely about what one wanted ... in refusing to investigate things which profit, and relying solely on guidance by criteria of intellectual elegance; it was by following this rule that one actually got ahead in the long run, much better than any strictly utilitarian course would have permitted. -- von Neumann (1954) in "The Neumann Compendium" edited by Brody & Vamos (1995) ======================================================================== -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Nov 26 13:30:08 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id NAA14397; Fri, 26 Nov 1999 13:22:59 +1300 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id NAA14394 for ; Fri, 26 Nov 1999 13:22:58 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p60-tnt6.akl.ihug.co.nz [216.100.154.60]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id NAA12003 for ; Fri, 26 Nov 1999 13:13:10 +1300 Subject: Re: Good And Evil. Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 13:12:42 +1300 Message-ID: <01bf37a2$f53e6580$3c9a64d8@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz -----Original Message----- From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Date: Friday, 26 November 1999 08:34 Subject: Re: Good And Evil. >Paul Schmidt wrote: > >> The Angels etc are clearly lifted by persons who >> were fans of the Dernai novels and lack any kind of spark. > >Dernai? Do you perhaps mean Deryni? (from Katherine Kurtz's novels... which I >vaguely recall have the Archangel Michael in them) -- the other option would >appear to be Drenai, from the David Gemmel books... which don't have angels as I >recall, but do have "the thirty", religious, meditative warrior monks... who >might make a good fantasy model for Michaelines. Michaelines was the name of an order of warrior mages in the Deryni books. I don't think there's any doubt as to the provenance of the angel based religion laughingly called the big four. > >The DQ angels were named and introduced over time but generally conform to the >Archangels of conventional angelology. I don't know if the Deryni novels had an >influence -- I know they didn't on me, 'cos I found them "as flavoursome as >oatmeal". I suspect that her angelology (what I recall of it) was simply drawn >from the same original root sources. > >> The deomons are even worse - no more mythic, titantic creation stories of >> Good or evil. Our demons are just pastiches of tired elves or bored >> dragons - they lack "mythic" evil,they lack prescence. >> [sinp] >> Also, of course, the current set up is "inhuman" and lack any real >> connection to humans on an emotional level. > >So, you want mythic, titanic creation stories that connect at a "human" level? Well, by your own admission, the works of the titans of great power is more like the behaviour of petulant two-year old. However, that aside, the motives of demons ought to be ones that have some impact on a human level, not the behaviour of some other weird critter, like a dragon or an elf. > >I would suggest that the two are somewhat exclusive. To have human emotional >content one must presumably have protagonists with human level emotions... which >is probably why throughout earth mythology most deities have the manners of a >petulant two year old. Without wishing to offend anyone's real world religious >sensibilities -- the coldly mythic creation stories certainly don't grab me on >an emotional level. "The great deity waved his hand/nostrils/tentacle over the >void and *pampf* the word was created." Creation stories usually don't have much to offer on an emotional level. The stories of their strivings with each other, usually do. There are about 3 different versions of Satan's fall from grace, all of them human in their treatment. Simply because the story is titanic, humanity isn't automatically left out of the equation. Not that it might not be difficult, mind you. > >This might explain in part the medieval fascination with demons and angels. >Real world angel/demonology is also "inhuman". As Jim stated, conventional >demonology has then as either fallen angels (inhuman, previous creation servants >of the creator) or false gods (inhuman deities). The fact that angels/demons >are not mortal of-woman-born humans hinders our emotional connection with them, >but although inhuman they are easier to understand if you assign them human >emotions/ pleasures /sins /virtues... and it might be from this that demons are >easier to understand than angels. Well, in fact, some demons have been born of mortal women. > >What was the one Jim mentioned? Nebiros... "who declined to fight with Michael >against Satan and his hordes, because he had previously given his word to serve >Satan before his fall, and would not dishonour his given word. The sin that he >is supposed to represent is pride." But he would also appear to represent >honour, and loyalty -- virtues. The pride would appear to come from believing >that his word was important enough to commit treason for. This makes him them a >tragic figure and understandable on a human level. If you take away this >tragedy then he becomes yet another 4-colour classic comic bad guy, "I do what I >do because I'm bad and I like it", and looses depth and interest. At worst -- >in an RPG -- he becomes nothing more than a really dangerous orc. Nebiros may have some qualities that provide some highlights to the otherwise unrelieved darkness of his blackened, twisted soul, but it is apparent, I think, and only apparent. An entity like Nebiros is asked to do what anyone would say is the obvious, good thing, and chooses to do something so weird and twisted like refusing to break his given word, in the face of the knowledge that he would be doing something utterly evil, and that would condemn him eternally, with no hope of redemption. The reason this has value is because it opens so many questions, rather than actually answering any. It hints at the nature of angels and demons, and teases us with possibilities. It doesn't provide any definite answers, though. Yes, Nebiros comes with some good qualities that you can use to point up his evil ones. Yes, he has elements of tragedy. But, for those things to be true, he has given up his membership in the team that has GOOD stamped all over it. > >As for "tired elves" and "bored dragons"... well maybe what I have written has >failed to set the tone correctly... but then flavour is also a personal thing >and I certainly don't expect that you and I will find the same flavours >appealing. I think "mythic" evil is what you make of it, and we don't need to >slavishly follow real world practice, or the practice of another well-known >RPG. I thought that the idea that the modern elves (bearing in mind that they >make up a fair percentage of PCs) are the shattered remnants of a once mighty >race who in their pride and hubris "turned to the dark side" went some way >towards making them more than just humans with pointy ears. > I entirely agree with you about TSR. Their view of Demons is completely unhelpful. It's also, by turns, adolescent and politically correct. As for the origin of elves and Demons being connected, I am not at all keen. Demons are human in the origin, and the address human sins, human aspirations and human tragedy. It isn't about some alien group, trying to sway mortals into evil, because they were looking for something to do of a quiet Saturday afternoon. They oppose the spiritual evolution of mortals, humans in particular. Animals might make an attractive trophy to show other Demons, but it is the subversion of humans down the paths of darkness, evil and despair that is the meat and potatoes of their existence. Jim. -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Nov 26 13:44:34 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id NAA14432; Fri, 26 Nov 1999 13:37:02 +1300 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id NAA14429 for ; Fri, 26 Nov 1999 13:37:00 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p60-tnt6.akl.ihug.co.nz [216.100.154.60]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id NAA13791 for ; Fri, 26 Nov 1999 13:27:14 +1300 Subject: Re: Good And Evil. Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 13:26:48 +1300 Message-ID: <01bf37a4$ed25b9a0$3c9a64d8@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz -----Original Message----- From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Date: Friday, 26 November 1999 10:20 Subject: Re: Good And Evil. >Michael Woodhams wrote: > >> Paul Schmidt wrote: >> >> > The trouble with our current shared "mythology" is that it as flavoursome as >> > oatmeal - completely bland. The Angels etc are clearly lifted by persons who >> > were fans of the Dernai novels and lack any kind of spark. >> >> The idea of four archangels predates the Deryni novels. Probably, DQ >> having four archangels predates the Deryni novels, but I'm not certain on that. > >The number of named Archangels varies depending on the source and (from memory) >ranges in number between about 4 and 9... I seem to recall 7 is quite common. I >think the most common names in common (if you see what I mean) is Michael and then >Raphael and Garbriel -- which IIRC are the only three archangels named in the >bible... and even then Raphael only manages to make it into the apocryphal book of >Tobit. > >I can check my "big book of angels" at home and let you know if you'd like. There are 4 Archangels. Michael, Gabriel, Raphael, and Uriel, or Auriel, or sometimes Muriel. These archangels are not to be confused with the 'order' of Archangels, that some angels come from. There are others, called archangels, like Sandalphon, etc, etc. Not much is really known about their origin (in the sense of who mentioned them, first) and are supposed to arisen somewhere during the 14th-15th Century (at around the same time as the first Lemegeton appeared on the market, by the way) I believe they were used as a means of describing the hierarchy of Heaven and Hell, and were the work of lots of different commentators. The basic idea, however, is that their are the big 4, and there may be a few other archangels lurking around to do special archangel shit, or they may not be archangels (in the big 4 sense of the word), but have special jobs to do of their own that accord them special rank. In any case, it really doesn't matter. The only really important thing is not to confuse the big 4 with the order of archangels. Jim. -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Nov 26 13:59:15 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id NAA14455; Fri, 26 Nov 1999 13:45:38 +1300 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id NAA14452 for ; Fri, 26 Nov 1999 13:45:37 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p60-tnt6.akl.ihug.co.nz [216.100.154.60]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id NAA14954 for ; Fri, 26 Nov 1999 13:35:52 +1300 Subject: Re: Demonology Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 13:35:24 +1300 Message-ID: <01bf37a6$21478fa0$3c9a64d8@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz -----Original Message----- From: Mandos D Shadowspawn Esq To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Date: Friday, 26 November 1999 09:35 Subject: RE: Demonology >> Thank you for teaching me how to suck eggs, George. When you have done >> anything like the amount of work on demonology, then I suggest >> you may have a point, other than the one on the top of your head. >> In the meantime, I suggest you actually read what I've written about >> demonology. I put it to you that that analysis implies a great >> deal of work. >> On top of anything else, to add to the current rationalisation merely >> gives it credence, when in fact it is an impoverishing >> rationalisation, and >> a limiting one. I'm not saying that the rest of the Guild has to >> buy into my rationalisation. I am saying that I can't abide something as >> jejune as this one. I take the option to ignore it. I encourage others >> to follow suit, rather than follow slavishly in the footsteps of a >> stumbling, limping construction such as this represents. > >Is it available to read anywhere? I am always keen to see another view >point. > Start with the Bible. Jim. -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Nov 26 14:14:47 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id OAA14515; Fri, 26 Nov 1999 14:08:59 +1300 Received: from enterprise.iconz.co.nz (enterprise.iconz.co.nz [210.48.22.40]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id OAA14512 for ; Fri, 26 Nov 1999 14:08:58 +1300 Received: (qmail 20256 invoked from network); 26 Nov 1999 00:59:44 -0000 Received: from e0.firewall.ak.iconz.net.nz (HELO Escher) (202.14.100.208) by enterprise.iconz.co.nz with SMTP; 26 Nov 1999 00:59:44 -0000 Subject: RE: Demonology Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 13:57:43 +1300 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2918.2701 From: "Mandos Mitchinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > >Is it available to read anywhere? I am always keen to see another view > >point. > > > > Start with the Bible. So what you are saying is that the shared resources that we can use to add Higher powers to our game are crap but you are unwilling to add your own view to allow people a comparative option. On the other hand if you are saying that your resources that you use are the bible then the only real thing to say is Crap. Badly written, no coherancy and a very little flavour or colour at all. Mandos /s -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Nov 26 14:49:22 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id OAA14564; Fri, 26 Nov 1999 14:35:02 +1300 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id OAA14561 for ; Fri, 26 Nov 1999 14:35:00 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p60-tnt6.akl.ihug.co.nz [216.100.154.60]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id OAA22585 for ; Fri, 26 Nov 1999 14:25:14 +1300 Subject: Re: Demonology Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 14:24:44 +1300 Message-ID: <01bf37ad$06187800$3c9a64d8@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz -----Original Message----- From: Mandos Mitchinson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Date: Friday, 26 November 1999 14:05 Subject: RE: Demonology >> >Is it available to read anywhere? I am always keen to see another view >> >point. >> > >> >> Start with the Bible. > >So what you are saying is that the shared resources that we can use to add >Higher powers to our game are crap but you are unwilling to add your own >view to allow people a comparative option. What I am saying is that you should get off your lazy arse and do some work of your own. Why should the world be all one flavour. And, more, why should you benefit from the sweat of my brow, and offer fuck all in return. Will you pay me for it? > >On the other hand if you are saying that your resources that you use are the >bible then the only real thing to say is Crap. Badly written, no coherancy >and a very little flavour or colour at all. Have you read it? I doubt it very much. Most people who have tend to have a very different point of view than this. Sure, a few people have found it the way you describe. They are pretty rare. Whether you like it or not, the Bible is one of the fundamental literary sources of our culture, more,even than Shakespeare. It is full of resonances that have an impact on all of us, regardless of our degree of belief, or complete absense of one. Without looking at the Bible, if only to decide that you aren't going to use it as a source for demons, then any discussion is, at best, shallow and factitious, and most likely futile. As for the coherency of the Bible, I'm forced to agree. It disagrees with itself, almost regularly. However, I like that. It means that there are many differing way to address the stuff you find in it. I don't agree with the stuff on colour and flavour. In fact, it's what convinces me that you haven't read it. One only has to look at the Book of Enoch or the Revelation to find something positively lurid in terms of colour and flavour. Jim. -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Nov 26 15:14:52 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id PAA14657; Fri, 26 Nov 1999 15:13:31 +1300 Received: from peace.com (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id PAA14654 for ; Fri, 26 Nov 1999 15:13:29 +1300 Message-ID: <383DEA48.CE564835@peace.com> Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 15:02:48 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Good And Evil. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Jim Arona wrote: > As for the origin of elves and Demons being connected, I am not at all > keen. Demons are human in the origin, and the address human sins, human > aspirations and human tragedy. It isn't about some alien group, trying to > sway mortals into evil, because they were looking for something to do of a > quiet Saturday afternoon. Hi Jim, I agree. The thing that I was trying to illustrate is that in standard mythology "upright" angels, and by extention fallen angels are not *human* either. Their sins and weaknesses and even their virtues are human in nature... but they themselves are not human but rather an earlier creation. This DQ campaign (I can't speak for others) has historically had a high proportion of PCs that were not human, and I think less of a human-centric world view than (for instance) AD&D or RuneQuest campaigns I have played/GMed in. From past guild surveys the most common non-human race is elves (though I'm not sure if this is still the case). I don't think that having demons as (mostly, but certainly not exclusively) elven in origin makes them alien per se. It does associate them with an "elder" race and something like 20% of PCs. I do think that having them as fallen mortals, rather than fallen lesser immortals does increase their "humanity" and makes them more believeable. The idea with the ancient dragon-demons was to deliberately make them alien. "Human" is good, but alien can be good too, because it makes their aims more inscrutable and frightening. The Lovecraftian pantheon are frightening because of their callous disregard for humanity... as we might wipe a bench free of ants with no thought for their individual survival -- and without malice. As for why dragons? Well... it is "DragonQuest"... and I rather like the idea that the dragons too were once a powerful and proud race, and that the ones we see today are but their degenerate descendants. Regards, Martin -- _/_/ Peace Software New Zealand Ltd Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com _/ Martin Dickson Fax : +64-9-373-0401 Analyst Phone: +64-9-373-0400 -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Nov 26 15:30:01 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id PAA14673; Fri, 26 Nov 1999 15:14:50 +1300 Received: from enterprise.iconz.co.nz (enterprise.iconz.co.nz [210.48.22.40]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id PAA14670 for ; Fri, 26 Nov 1999 15:14:48 +1300 Received: (qmail 25764 invoked from network); 26 Nov 1999 02:05:37 -0000 Received: from e0.firewall.ak.iconz.net.nz (HELO Escher) (202.14.100.208) by enterprise.iconz.co.nz with SMTP; 26 Nov 1999 02:05:37 -0000 Subject: RE: Demonology Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 15:03:35 +1300 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2918.2701 From: "Mandos Mitchinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > What I am saying is that you should get off your lazy arse and do some > work of your own. Why should the world be all one flavour. And, more, why > should you benefit from the sweat of my brow, and offer fuck all > in return. > Will you pay me for it? I am not debating that you may not wish to share you wisdom but I do get annoyed by your constant derogatory statements to those who do wish to participate in a "shared" world. The fact is that if you wish people to have a different view of demonology or any DQ requirements then you need to provide examples rather than just saying "Thats Crap" which is a very childish way to make a point. I am sure the work you have done on this topic is very good and would add to the world but since you are sitting in a corner shouting "Your stuff is crap" at everyone else who does anything it is hard to take anything you say seriously. > Have you read it? I doubt it very much. Most people who have tend to > have a very different point of view than this. Sure, a few people > have found it the way you describe. They are pretty rare. > Whether you like it or not, the Bible is one of the > fundamental literary sources of our culture, more,even than Shakespeare. > It is full of resonances that have an impact on all of us, regardless > of our degree of belief, or complete absense of one. Before we start this argument yes I have read the bible (although probably not to the extent you have) and like most similar works it has moments of inspiration but is largly a turgid work with very little apeal to me. Other may see it differently. > As for the coherency of the Bible, I'm forced to agree. It disagrees > with itself, almost regularly. However, I like that. It means > that there are many differing way to address the stuff you find in it. > I don't agree with the stuff on colour and flavour. In fact, it's what > convinces me that you haven't read it. One only has to look at the Book of > Enoch or the Revelation to find something positively lurid in terms of > colour and flavour. As I said above some areas of the bible do have moments of inspiration (Ezekiel is personal fav) and flavour but the lack of coherency means that the colour within the text is the colour that you the reader apply to it. Which is exactly the same as the documents that Martin has produced. Like the bible the document is bland in places and lacks in solid flavour but it does allow the reader to add their own flavour and colour to the basic concepts. Mandos /s -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Nov 26 17:29:15 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id RAA15012; Fri, 26 Nov 1999 17:19:16 +1300 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id RAA15002 for ; Fri, 26 Nov 1999 17:19:14 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p7-tnt7.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.203.7]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id RAA24481 for ; Fri, 26 Nov 1999 17:09:18 +1300 Subject: Re: Demonology Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 17:08:51 +1300 Message-ID: <01bf37c3$f29a1d80$07cb6dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz -----Original Message----- From: Mandos Mitchinson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Date: Friday, 26 November 1999 15:20 Subject: RE: Demonology >> What I am saying is that you should get off your lazy arse and do some >> work of your own. Why should the world be all one flavour. And, more, why >> should you benefit from the sweat of my brow, and offer fuck all >> in return. >> Will you pay me for it? > >I am not debating that you may not wish to share you wisdom but I do get >annoyed by your constant derogatory statements to those who do wish to >participate in a "shared" world. The fact is that if you wish people to have >a different view of demonology or any DQ requirements then you need to >provide examples rather than just saying "Thats Crap" which is a very >childish way to make a point. I am sure the work you have done on this topic >is very good and would add to the world but since you are sitting in a >corner shouting "Your stuff is crap" at everyone else who does anything it >is hard to take anything you say seriously. I'm not trying to establish a background, beyond pointing out, in general terms, where my view on Demons is different. Given that Demons are a fundamental part of the universe, any definition of their nature needs to be extremely general. That way, it does less damage to the integrity of other DM's games. The stuff I have done, I wish to keep. Mostly, because it provides me with a handle that makes sense to me, and hopefully, engenders a sense of 'meaning' in my players. I have no particular desire to have my version taken as the accepted one. I'm more interested in having a variety of them. > >> Have you read it? I doubt it very much. Most people who have tend to >> have a very different point of view than this. Sure, a few people >> have found it the way you describe. They are pretty rare. >> Whether you like it or not, the Bible is one of the >> fundamental literary sources of our culture, more,even than Shakespeare. >> It is full of resonances that have an impact on all of us, regardless >> of our degree of belief, or complete absense of one. > >Before we start this argument yes I have read the bible (although probably >not to the extent you have) and like most similar works it has moments of >inspiration but is largly a turgid work with very little apeal to me. Other >may see it differently. > >> As for the coherency of the Bible, I'm forced to agree. It disagrees >> with itself, almost regularly. However, I like that. It means >> that there are many differing way to address the stuff you find in it. >> I don't agree with the stuff on colour and flavour. In fact, it's what >> convinces me that you haven't read it. One only has to look at the Book of >> Enoch or the Revelation to find something positively lurid in terms of >> colour and flavour. > >As I said above some areas of the bible do have moments of inspiration >(Ezekiel is personal fav) and flavour but the lack of coherency means that >the colour within the text is the colour that you the reader apply to it. >Which is exactly the same as the documents that Martin has produced. Like >the bible the document is bland in places and lacks in solid flavour but it >does allow the reader to add their own flavour and colour to the basic >concepts. > What? How do you come to that conclusion? The Bible is extremely colourful and has heaps of flavour. It lacks integrity, but then it's the work of many different authors, and lots of different translations. If you mean it can sustain lots of interpretations, then yes, it can. That doesn't have any effect on its colour and flavour. Some of those interpretations may lack colour, etc, I suppose. Jim. -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Nov 26 17:45:27 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id RAA15115; Fri, 26 Nov 1999 17:41:48 +1300 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id RAA15112 for ; Fri, 26 Nov 1999 17:41:46 +1300 Received: from paul (p469-tnt6.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.136.229]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id RAA21237; Fri, 26 Nov 1999 17:31:54 +1300 Message-ID: <003301bf37c7$84299340$6564640a@paul> Subject: Re: Good And Evil. Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 17:34:18 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 From: "Paul Schmidt" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: "Paul Schmidt" , dq@dq.sf.org.nz Michael Parkinsons Ellenic Gods are the type of Gods I meant that have resonance. They appeal and evoke a reaction at some level becuase of their humanness. The fact that they aren't around much "up front" is also good - they dress the scene of the adventure, providing depth to the world. Cheers Paul -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Nov 26 17:47:27 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id RAA15109; Fri, 26 Nov 1999 17:41:44 +1300 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id RAA15106 for ; Fri, 26 Nov 1999 17:41:43 +1300 Received: from paul (p469-tnt6.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.136.229]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id RAA21233 for ; Fri, 26 Nov 1999 17:31:51 +1300 Message-ID: <002c01bf37c7$82320900$6564640a@paul> Subject: Re: Good And Evil. Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 17:28:03 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 From: "Paul Schmidt" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: "Paul Schmidt" , dq@dq.sf.org.nz > The idea of four archangels predates the Deryni novels. Probably, DQ > having > four archangels predates the Deryni novels, but I'm not certain on that. I know that. But the presentation is as bland as the Dernyi, wether intentional or not. basically it lacks emotion, the fundamental thing between gods, demon and mortals > They seem like pretty standard FRP demons to me in behaviour - except > that some > demons, under some GMs, are fairly benevolent. I take it it is the > creation > myth behind demons that you particularly object to? Yes. Demons and devils should be mythic in scale and origin, not pastiches of left over consciousness from basic races like Elves. They lack a grandeur and a degree of malevolence when presented in this fashion. What is more interesting in a mythic sense - a being who fell from Heaven or one who is a jumped up Drow? The one who fell from heaven - becuase be brings out all sorts of other responses in us, vis-a-vis Good and Evil etc. In the current set up anyone can aspire to be a demon - just be bad enough in a bland kind of way and you're off. I have no objection to promotion amongst the ranks of evil, but I'd like to see some of them, especially the most ancient being fallen beings of another order. As I say, the current set up is oatmeal. > I think too many pantheons is worse than one bland one. I think we > currently > have three - the angels/demons, an Elven/Celtic one, and a Dwarven/Norse > one. > There are probably a few extra gods floating around. I feel this is > enough - it > greatly cheapens gods if there are too many of them. It is hard to > impress > people with a god if nobody in the party remembers who they are. I kind of agree - and don't. It depends on how its done. In general I would prefer one mythos per world but could stretch to more if well presented. The reason real world pantheons are often good to use is they present the Gods as aspects of human nature - pride, love, anger, war etc; in almost elmental ways that speak directly to us. The curent set up doesn't. > However, if you find the angels/demons boring, we do have the two > alternatives. > And other planes can have entire new pantheons. Exactly. Which is a benefit of multi-player/GM games. That, along with wanting "to do your own thing" is why most games are off plane. That and not wanting to step on other peoples toes, or have them stepped on by folks who regulary threaten other GM's patches, or indeed the whole of Alusia. > Classical mythology has gods within one pantheon in competition. I don't > recall > any cases of pantheons in competition, and the idea doesn't appeal to me > much. > I guess this is a matter of taste. It does occur - Christians vs Muslims for example, Muslims vs Hindus etc :) But in general I agree. > Could you expand on this? If you can explain to us what you think is > lacking, > we might be able to put it in. Dump any pretense the current setup has universal validty. I game off world so as to spare other GM's my hubris so as to speak. Others are entitled to rule as they like but they shouldn't force their views are defacto rules. Re-discover how the Gods are in 2,000 - a year of revelation perhaps. Introduce background Powers who are self made and originating, not a lot of old elves in drag. Introduce a mythic background evil, one so ancient yet nebulous it has corrupted and produced more recent powers, perhaps witout them even knowing it. Ditto for the good guys. Or whatever. Basically add emotional colour! > It is a general problem with the multi-GM setup. You pretty much have to > have > one of inconsistency, authoritarianism or blandness. I feel > inconsistency is > the least desirable of these, and the ranking of the other two depends > on the > autocrat. I don't believe consitancy apart from rules has any real value, especially for off world stuff. Variety is the name of the game! > > Incidentally, I think this discussion is more likely to improve the game > than > rules changes. Agreed. Rules are rules are rules. Exchanges in difference of world perception are probably more useful. Cheers Paul -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Nov 26 17:59:35 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id RAA15205; Fri, 26 Nov 1999 17:58:26 +1300 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id RAA15202 for ; Fri, 26 Nov 1999 17:58:24 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p50-max30.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.100.114]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id RAA29081 for ; Fri, 26 Nov 1999 17:48:32 +1300 Subject: Re: Good And Evil. Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 17:47:28 +1300 Message-ID: <01bf37c9$57980d00$07cb6dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz -----Original Message----- From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Date: Friday, 26 November 1999 15:05 Subject: Re: Good And Evil. >Jim Arona wrote: > >> As for the origin of elves and Demons being connected, I am not at all >> keen. Demons are human in the origin, and the address human sins, human >> aspirations and human tragedy. It isn't about some alien group, trying to >> sway mortals into evil, because they were looking for something to do of a >> quiet Saturday afternoon. > >Hi Jim, > >I agree. The thing that I was trying to illustrate is that in standard >mythology "upright" angels, and by extention fallen angels are not *human* >either. Their sins and weaknesses and even their virtues are human in nature... >but they themselves are not human but rather an earlier creation. Whether or not they are human in nature, their focus is human. Not elven, or draconian. I don't dispute that Demons spring from another source than does humanity. I just dispute that they ought to spring from elves (however undegenerate), or dragons (likewise). I prefer that they spring from some mysterious source prior, and their origin merely reported by inspired, or drug-dependant mystics... > >This DQ campaign (I can't speak for others) has historically had a high >proportion of PCs that were not human, and I think less of a human-centric world >view than (for instance) AD&D or RuneQuest campaigns I have played/GMed in. >From past guild surveys the most common non-human race is elves (though I'm not >sure if this is still the case). > >I don't think that having demons as (mostly, but certainly not exclusively) >elven in origin makes them alien per se. It does associate them with an "elder" >race and something like 20% of PCs. I do think that having them as fallen >mortals, rather than fallen lesser immortals does increase their "humanity" and >makes them more believeable. The reason for the fall of Satan and his ilk has been described as rage at a child of fire and snow having to bend the knee to a child of dust. Also as envy at the attentions of god being spent more closely on a 'lesser' work. Whatever the reason, it is focussed on humanity. Your rationalisation, which may work well for you, says that demons are more connected to elves and dragons. Whether or not their actual interest is human, for whatever reason, the fact is that they have more resonances with elves than with humans. On top of which, your rationalisation implies several things that I don't like. 1) I might reasonably assume that there was a race of Angels, some of whom Fell. Over time, the race faded away, leaving only Angels, Demons, and the pathetic relict of a once great race, that we know today as elves. 2) The functions of the Angels and Demons, as well, I suppose, is not elemental to their nature. In other words, this race acquired their abilities. They didn't spring forth with them, fully formed. This implies that they learnt these abilities or picked them up in some other fashion, as part of their endless progress through the centuries. 3) They are part of a race, and therefore have an ecology, admittedly, one that may no longer pertain. They had a culture, involved themselves in breeding, and had relationships. I don't like point 1 and 3 is because it creates the impression that they are closer to humanity. They are like us, they share, or shared, similar kinds of interest. I don't like point 1 because it connects issues of moment with elves, not humans. I don't like point 2 because it is hard to understand why they aren't all-powerful. Every year that passes makes them more powerful. I don't think Demons or Angels should be like humans. In fact, I think it's best if they aren't like us, at all.There may be areas that make them seem similar, for example, Nebiros' loyalty, but it should be the sort of thing that when you look at it again, makes you think 'Wow! ... That's an extremely weird way of looking at the world, or one's behaviour, in light of it'. Nebiros is a great example of that. You think that you understand it, but then when you investigate it, you find the thought process completely alien. I do, however, think that the focus of the attention of Demons and Angels needs to be humanity. They may be weird as fuck, but their concentration needs to be people. And, by that, I mean people, not animals. > >The idea with the ancient dragon-demons was to deliberately make them alien. >"Human" is good, but alien can be good too, because it makes their aims more >inscrutable and frightening. The Lovecraftian pantheon are frightening because >of their callous disregard for humanity... as we might wipe a bench free of ants >with no thought for their individual survival -- and without malice. As for why >dragons? Well... it is "DragonQuest"... and I rather like the idea that the >dragons too were once a powerful and proud race, and that the ones we see today >are but their degenerate descendants. > Yes. Well, Lovecraft was a very odd man, and that's probably the kindest comment I've heard about him. Yes, I think Demons need to be alien. Otherwise, it's hard to frighten players with them. Even the most apparently harmless ones, like Foras should be capable of terrifying them, at the appropriate moment. Nevertheless, I don't think I'd try and make them like the creatures out of Lovecraft. Those creatures have their own origins, which work quite well, and we don't need to spend effort on coming up with something for them. They also work so well, that fiddling with them isn't likely to do anything useful. I would have Demons as weirdly alien, but with an obssession with humanity. A DM can introduce Lovecraftian monsters with those qualities, providing us with a whole new range of terror to inflict on players. Mind you, I suppose there might be one, maybe two Demons who might behave in a Lovecraftian fashion. That's fine. After all, it might provide the Demons with someone who can liaise with Hastur and his minions to bring wickedness, evil and despair to the world. Jim. -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Nov 26 19:30:26 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id TAA15332; Fri, 26 Nov 1999 19:15:16 +1300 Received: from mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (mailhost.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.1.4]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id TAA15329 for ; Fri, 26 Nov 1999 19:15:13 +1300 Received: from sci4 (lbr-122-42.lbrsc.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.122.42]) by mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (8.9.2/8.9.2/8.9.2-ua) with SMTP id TAA11869 for ; Fri, 26 Nov 1999 19:05:20 +1300 (NZDT) Message-Id: <199911260605.TAA11869@mailhost.auckland.ac.nz> Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 19:04:43 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Good And Evil. X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) From: "Michael Parkinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz, dq@dq.sf.org.nz Dear Paul & all, > Michael Parkinsons Ellenic Gods are the type of Gods I meant that have > resonance. > They appeal and evoke a reaction at some level becuase of their humanness. > The fact that they aren't around much "up front" is also good - they dress > the scene of the adventure, providing depth to the world. Thank you; I'm glad some people appreaciate them (in the abstract). The party have been far from complimentary; especially if they feel they've been suckered into doing some mouldy diety's dirty work. regards, Michael "The Poseidon adventure" Parkinson. Michael Parkinson Mathematics & Statistics Subject Librarian Science Library, University of Auckland, Private Bag 92019, AUCKLAND, N.Z. Email: m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz Phone: (09) 3737 599 x 5858 Fax: (09) 3082 304 -------------------------------------------------------------- This is true for all of science. Successes were largely due to forgetting completely about what one wanted ... in refusing to investigate things which profit, and relying solely on guidance by criteria of intellectual elegance; it was by following this rule that one actually got ahead in the long run, much better than any strictly utilitarian course would have permitted. -- von Neumann (1954) in "The Neumann Compendium" edited by Brody & Vamos (1995) ======================================================================== -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Nov 26 19:32:43 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id TAA15350; Fri, 26 Nov 1999 19:17:49 +1300 Received: from mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (mailhost.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.1.4]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id TAA15347 for ; Fri, 26 Nov 1999 19:17:45 +1300 Received: from sci4 (lbr-122-42.lbrsc.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.122.42]) by mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (8.9.2/8.9.2/8.9.2-ua) with SMTP id TAA11920 for ; Fri, 26 Nov 1999 19:07:31 +1300 (NZDT) Message-Id: <199911260607.TAA11920@mailhost.auckland.ac.nz> Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 19:06:53 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Good And Evil. X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) From: "Michael Parkinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz, dq@dq.sf.org.nz Dear all, Posing questions rather than posting answers: > Others are entitled to rule as they like but they shouldn't force > their views are defacto rules. Re-discover how the Gods are in > 2,000 - a year of revelation perhaps. You mean the Alusian world isn't going to end in 2000 AP, per se. It's the year the gods arrive; or came back; or the moritorium was lifted ??? The question remains what is a god? What do we wan't them to do, or not do? -- on or to the plane Alusia, naturally. Elsewhere the question has little meaning or restriction. I beg to remain your obedient servant, Michael Michael Parkinson Mathematics & Statistics Subject Librarian Science Library, University of Auckland, Private Bag 92019, AUCKLAND, N.Z. Email: m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz Phone: (09) 3737 599 x 5858 Fax: (09) 3082 304 -------------------------------------------------------------- This is true for all of science. Successes were largely due to forgetting completely about what one wanted ... in refusing to investigate things which profit, and relying solely on guidance by criteria of intellectual elegance; it was by following this rule that one actually got ahead in the long run, much better than any strictly utilitarian course would have permitted. -- von Neumann (1954) in "The Neumann Compendium" edited by Brody & Vamos (1995) ======================================================================== -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Nov 26 19:44:18 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id TAA15414; Fri, 26 Nov 1999 19:34:08 +1300 Received: from mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (mailhost.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.1.4]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id TAA15411 for ; Fri, 26 Nov 1999 19:34:05 +1300 Received: from sci4 (lbr-122-42.lbrsc.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.122.42]) by mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (8.9.2/8.9.2/8.9.2-ua) with SMTP id TAA12431 for ; Fri, 26 Nov 1999 19:24:12 +1300 (NZDT) Message-Id: <199911260624.TAA12431@mailhost.auckland.ac.nz> Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 19:23:35 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: A challenge? X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) From: "Michael Parkinson" To: dq-pub@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq-pub@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz, dq-pub@dq.sf.org.nz Late in the Month of Seedtime (i.e. 2nd month of Spring), a stranger approaches the guild and announces: "I am Miyatomi Musashi, master swordsman of Kinlu. I have never known defeat in battle. Where is the Kingslayer? I have journeyed far to match him steel for steel, to see which of us is the greater." He then sits in a position overlooking the Sweetwater, beneath the shade of a cherry tree -- where no-one can particularly remember one growing ... -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers --