RE: Sub plots

From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Dec 1 00:30:26 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id AAA25118; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 00:25:37 +1300 Received: from sun.syzygy.net (sun.syzygy.co.uk [195.26.96.2]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id AAA25102 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 00:25:31 +1300 Received: from lonexapps01.syzygy.net ([195.26.97.242]) by sun.syzygy.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA04654 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 11:13:09 GMT Received: by mailpost.syzygy.net with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) id ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 11:13:12 -0000 Message-ID: <30C64922AF42D311A96D00A0C91D0B10489E7F@mailpost.syzygy.net> Subject: RE: Evil and Good. Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 11:13:11 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Daniel Dixon To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz It is a level of detail and definition. Methinks I was being a bit too absolute as is my usual disposition. If in a game there is a spooky house on the hill, every time the players see the hill there is a spooky house there. Each will have a different conception of it. Details only need to be provided when they become important. It's complete layout and two elevations do not need to be provided up front. In a story the level of detail is proportional to the objects importance in the plot (and then the details provided will support the plot). Any hard rules stated like this will influence players decisions, and make them focus on only the things you describe in detail. However, the focus of the plot needs to follow a certain story line and I have found it is usually the unwaranted detailing of extraneous elements that distracts players (this is not always a bad thing as it can create interesting sub-plots or arcs withing the game that are fun to follow for all in the game). Getting back the the creation myths and demons/angels etc. The fact that they could be quite indeterminate fits in nicely with the way myths work in the real world. It also works quite in line with the way historical research runs. Myths can be quite contradictory. Read a text on mythology and you will often find two disparate myths about one thing - there are good reasons for this, usually involving two seperate myths becoming joined. Researching history also works in such a way that the detail can change the story significantly. Take the Thutmoseid period in the 18th dynasty (Egypt), a few more details discovered and a shift in opinion and what was once interpreted as a period of intense internecine warface, turned into peaceful succession. Especially in an world where the vast majority of the population is illiterate, recorded knowledge is sparse and incredible miracles are nearly a daily occurance then there is room for the world to be indeterminate - especially when it comes to the mystical. A cup should still be a cup, a table should still always be a table, and the pub on the corner must always be there. However the fact that a well know demon is rumored to drink in that establishment on the sabbath should never be entirely provable. Daniel The devil is in the details. ?-----Original Message----- ?From: Martin Dickson [mailto:martind@peace.com] ?Sent: 29 November 1999 22:32 ?To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz ?Subject: Re: Evil and Good. ? ? ?Daniel Dixon (at syzgy.net) wrote: ? ?> I am not trying to apply this point to the rules, I still ?believe that there ?> needs to be an understood and implemented uniformly. However ?from a story ?> telling point of view the game needs to be fluid and ?campaing details need ?> to change to fit the plot. ? ?This is obviously a matter of personal taste and perspective. ? ?If details change part way through a movie or book I will ?think it is a either a ?cunning plot device (that will be explained later) or a ?continuity error. If I ?get to the end and it's not explained I'll be certain it's a ?continuity error. ? ?The matter of perspective and taste runs to whether this ?consistency can/should ?be expected in roleplaying "per episode" or through a character's eyes ?throughout their life. ? ?By analogy, if I go to a foreign country I expect strange laws ?and odd customs, ?but I don't expect the laws and customs of my own country to ?change (and ?possibly change back again) with no explanation -- that would ?be a continuity ?error, and I might be justifies in thinking I'd slipped into a ?Twilight Zone ?story. ? ?> I shall be turning up for the interview, await the omens... ? ?This is a frightening threat from someone who has no vowels in ?their address. ?:) ? ?Ia! Ia ftaghn! Daniel nicht ftaghn! Ftaghn ftaghn! ? ?Cheers, ? Martin ? ? ?-- ? ? _/_/ Peace Software New Zealand Ltd Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com ?_/ Martin Dickson Fax : +64-9-373-0401 ? Analyst Phone: +64-9-373-0400 ? ? ? ? ?-- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- ? -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Dec 1 00:59:15 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id AAA25171; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 00:56:57 +1300 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id AAA25168 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 00:56:56 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p392-tnt6.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.136.152]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id AAA02189 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 00:44:40 +1300 Subject: Re: Sub plots Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 00:44:00 +1300 Message-ID: <01bf3b28$3226d6c0$98886dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz -----Original Message----- From: Daniel Dixon To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Date: Wednesday, 1 December 1999 00:18 Subject: RE: Evil and Good. >It is a level of detail and definition. Methinks I was being a bit too >absolute as is my usual disposition. > >If in a game there is a spooky house on the hill, every time the players see >the hill there is a spooky house there. Each will have a different >conception of it. Details only need to be provided when they become >important. It's complete layout and two elevations do not need to be >provided up front. In a story the level of detail is proportional to the >objects importance in the plot (and then the details provided will support >the plot). Any hard rules stated like this will influence players decisions, >and make them focus on only the things you describe in detail. However, the >focus of the plot needs to follow a certain story line and I have found it >is usually the unwaranted detailing of extraneous elements that distracts >players (this is not always a bad thing as it can create interesting >sub-plots or arcs withing the game that are fun to follow for all in the >game). Well, how about this for extreme. You cannot have subplots in a roleplaying game. There is no story room for them.You can have other story threads, but you cannot have subplots in the usual sense of the term. Story threads don't have the same effect as subplots. Neither do they have the reflected power of them. They offer a DM the possibility of taking the story in different directions. They are, if you like, story manoeuvrability. Jim. -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Dec 1 08:59:37 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id IAA25651; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 08:46:19 +1300 Received: from fclaklmr03.fcl.co.nz (mail.fcl.co.nz [203.98.14.148]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id IAA25648 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 08:46:06 +1300 Received: from falaklex00.falum.co.nz - 10.8.1.28 by fclaklmr03.fcl.co.nz with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1774.114.11); Wed, 1 Dec 1999 08:33:43 +1300 Received: by FALAKLEX00 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 08:36:59 +1300 Message-ID: <311B3C3DD32FD311B33900805F770A725FB534@FALAKLEX00> Subject: RE: Sub plots Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 08:36:58 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01BF3B6A.446D33E0" From: "Andrew Withy (FAL AKL)" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF3B6A.446D33E0 Content-Type: text/plain Jim; 'Cuse my ignorance. could you please explain the difference between sub-plots and story threads, perhaps with an example. I'm not too sure of the terms and the implications in a RPG settings. Andrew > -----Original Message----- > From: Jim Arona [SMTP:jimarona@ihug.co.nz] > However, the focus of the plot needs to follow a certain story line > and I have found it is usually the unwaranted detailing of extraneous > elements that distracts players (this is not always a bad thing as it can > create interesting sub-plots or arcs withing the game that are fun to > follow for all in the game). > > Well, how about this for extreme. You cannot have subplots in a > roleplaying game. There is no story room for them.You can have other story > threads, but you cannot have subplots in the usual sense of the term. > Story threads don't have the same effect as subplots. Neither do they > have the reflected power of them. They offer a DM the possibility of > taking > the story in different directions. They are, if you like, story > manoeuvrability. > Jim. > ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF3B6A.446D33E0 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Sub plots

Jim;
'Cuse my ignorance. = could you please explain the difference between sub-plots and story = threads, perhaps with an example. I'm not too sure of the terms and the = implications in a RPG settings.

Andrew

-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Arona [SMTP:jimarona@ihug.co.nz]

However, the focus of the plot needs to follow a certain story line = and I have found it is usually the = unwaranted detailing of extraneous elements that distracts players (this is not always a bad thing as it can create = interesting sub-plots or arcs = withing the game that are fun to follow for all in the game).

Well, how = about this for extreme. You cannot have subplots in a
roleplaying game. There is no story = room for them.You can have other story
threads, but you cannot have subplots = in the usual sense of the term.
Story threads = don't have the same effect as subplots. Neither do they
have the reflected power of them. = They offer a DM the possibility of taking
the story in different directions. = They are, if you like, story
manoeuvrability.
Jim.

------_=_NextPart_001_01BF3B6A.446D33E0-- -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Dec 1 09:29:48 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id JAA25732; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 09:24:24 +1300 Received: from peace.com (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id JAA25729 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 09:24:23 +1300 Message-ID: <38442F73.64CE1E69@peace.com> Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 09:11:31 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Evil and Good. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Michael Woodhams To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Daniel Dixon wrote: > Getting back the the creation myths and demons/angels etc. The fact that > they could be quite indeterminate fits in nicely with the way myths work in > the real world. It also works quite in line with the way historical research > runs. Myths can be quite contradictory. Read a text on mythology and you > will often find two disparate myths about one thing - there are good reasons > for this, usually involving two seperate myths becoming joined. Researching > history also works in such a way that the detail can change the story > significantly. Take the Thutmoseid period in the 18th dynasty (Egypt), a few > more details discovered and a shift in opinion and what was once interpreted > as a period of intense internecine warface, turned into peaceful succession. > > Especially in an world where the vast majority of the population is > illiterate, recorded knowledge is sparse and incredible miracles are nearly > a daily occurance then there is room for the world to be indeterminate - > especially when it comes to the mystical. It becomes a bit more difficult when someone has talked to Archangels and been told 'this is how it is...' (Has this happened? I think TDP has had a witness's account from a dragon of much of the demon forming stuff.) A possibility to indeterminize things, without badly contradicting PCs experiences: Perhaps the elves didn't really create the archangels/demons but merely made a connection between Alusia and pre-existing powers. The elves don't necessarily realize this is the case. The powers themselves either don't realize (they are 'funneled' through the elven spirits to get to Alusia and this may change their perceptions) or don't tell for inscrutable reasons of their own (or possibly scrutable ones - e.g. to not confuse the poor mortals.) -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Dec 1 10:00:04 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id JAA25837; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 09:51:25 +1300 Received: from fclaklmr03.fcl.co.nz (mail.fcl.co.nz [203.98.14.148]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id JAA25834 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 09:51:23 +1300 Received: from falaklex00.falum.co.nz - 10.8.1.28 by fclaklmr03.fcl.co.nz with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1774.114.11); Wed, 1 Dec 1999 09:39:06 +1300 Received: by FALAKLEX00 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 09:42:22 +1300 Message-ID: <311B3C3DD32FD311B33900805F770A725FB53A@FALAKLEX00> Subject: RE: Evil and Good. Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 09:42:21 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01BF3B73.66B61F30" From: "Andrew Withy (FAL AKL)" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF3B73.66B61F30 Content-Type: text/plain If we want to indeterminise things, then the last thing we want to do is explain what "really" happened. Just say "and lo, all things are now consistent, except those still inconsistent. It's a miracle." However, I would like to at least have consistent beliefs by groups of NPCs. e.g. most Western Kingdom people believe that there are angels and demons and thats it. There used to be old gods, but they are gone now. Angels are good, Demons are bad. Widely travelled adventurers & powerful NPCs may have met some of these gods that don't exist, and have other opinions. They may also believe that some of the demons are good, or some of the angels bad. We don't need an agreed metaphysics of what the angels/demons are like, their causes, alliances etc., only what people think they are like, while we are interacting with people. For those interacting with the angels/demons/gods personally, they can have their own unique perceptions as the GM requires, and the rest of the world can think them mad - "but I tell you, Uriel does cheat at cards...". A history of what people have seen of the angels/demons/shared gods might be good, with GMs sticking a paragraph on after adventures. Andrew > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael Woodhams [SMTP:michaelw@peace.com] > > A possibility to indeterminize things, without badly contradicting PCs > experiences: Perhaps the elves didn't really create the archangels/demons > but > merely made a connection between Alusia and pre-existing powers. The elves > don't necessarily realize this is the case. The powers themselves either > don't > realize (they are 'funneled' through the elven spirits to get to Alusia > and > this may change their perceptions) or don't tell for inscrutable reasons > of > their own (or possibly scrutable ones - e.g. to not confuse the poor > mortals.) > ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF3B73.66B61F30 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Evil and Good.

If we want to = indeterminise things, then the last thing we want to do is explain what = "really" happened. Just say "and lo, all things are now = consistent, except those still inconsistent. It's a = miracle."

However, I would = like to at least have consistent beliefs by groups of NPCs.
e.g. most Western = Kingdom people believe that there are angels and demons and thats it. = There used to be old gods, but they are gone now. Angels are good, = Demons are bad. Widely travelled adventurers & powerful NPCs may = have met some of these gods that don't exist, and have other opinions. = They may also believe that some of the demons are good, or some of the = angels bad.

We don't need an = agreed metaphysics of what the angels/demons are like, their causes, = alliances etc., only what people think they are like, while we are = interacting with people. For those interacting with the = angels/demons/gods personally, they can have their own unique = perceptions as the GM requires, and the rest of the world can think = them mad - "but I tell you, Uriel does cheat at cards...". A = history of what people have seen of the angels/demons/shared gods might = be good, with GMs sticking a paragraph on after adventures.

Andrew

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Woodhams = [SMTP:michaelw@peace.com]

A possibility to indeterminize things, = without badly contradicting PCs
experiences: Perhaps the elves didn't = really create the archangels/demons but
merely made a connection between = Alusia and pre-existing powers. The elves
don't necessarily realize this is the = case. The powers themselves either don't
realize (they are 'funneled' through = the elven spirits to get to Alusia and
this may change their perceptions) or = don't tell for inscrutable reasons of
their own (or possibly scrutable ones = - e.g. to not confuse the poor mortals.)

------_=_NextPart_001_01BF3B73.66B61F30-- -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Dec 1 10:14:25 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id KAA25870; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 10:09:37 +1300 Received: from peace.com (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id KAA25867 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 10:09:36 +1300 Message-ID: <384439EC.9503E266@peace.com> Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 09:56:12 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Good And Evil. Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Jim Arona wrote:

When we tell stories, we don't tell them to these weird fantasy races. We tell them to humans. Whatever their players may think they are, most DMs are convinced that players are human. Because they are.

Sure we tell the stories to humans, and we usually use aliens/mythic being to illustrate humanity from another viewpoint. In Star Trek, for example, the races with the pointy ears and silly noses are there to contrast or illustrate human ethics/concepts/ideas/beliefs. By attempting to see the world throught he eyes of an alien we learn more about ourselves... and can perhaps present an idea in a new light.

When you write a novel or a Star Trek episode you can be fairly sure that the viewers are human. In an RPG the players are also human -- but often they are trying their hardest to protray something non-human.

You can give validation to animals in other ways, most noticeably in the fact that they are so powerful when compared to humans.

Being able to see in the dark is a very small thing to hang a character conception on -- as is having pointy ears or a long beard.

I think it's desirablie to establish some theme of greatness to give the human characters something to hold onto. The others can see in the darkness. Humans have great stories because their spirits are great.

I agree. Many fantasy worlds, Alusia included, have the concept of earlier ages, when magic was more powerful, and cities reached to the clouds or flew there, when the gods walked the earth, yadda yadda yadda. These past ages are often the desmense of an elder race... consider Tolkien's earier ages with the third age of LotR. In the current age these days of empire are gone, and if the elder race survives at all it looks longingly back to past glories and reluctantly forward to an uncertain future. Younger races rule and their stories are filled with naive wonder, recent triumph, and hope for the future.

Cheers,
Martin

_/_/ Peace Software New Zealand Ltd   Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com
_/     Martin Dickson                   Fax : +64-9-373-0401
       Analyst                          Phone: +64-9-373-0400
-- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Dec 1 11:29:33 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id LAA26031; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 11:24:58 +1300 Received: from mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (mailhost.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.1.4]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id LAA26028; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 11:24:56 +1300 Received: from sci4 (lbr-122-42.lbrsc.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.122.42]) by mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (8.9.2/8.9.2/8.9.2-ua) with SMTP id LAA09563; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 11:12:25 +1300 (NZDT) Subject: FW: A challenge? Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 11:11:35 +1300 Message-ID: <000b01bf3b7f$ddaed090$2a7ad882@sci4> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 From: "Michael Parkinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz For public amusement, Since the public has a right to know (cleared with consent of participants) -- even if they would rather not exercise that right ! The story so far ... (although play may be stopped because of reign) regards, Michael Michael Parkinson ------------------------------------------------- The word for today is Iajutsu... the art of drawing your weapon and killing your opponent in the time it take a bead of sweat to fall. [Source: MD] =================================== > I greet the master swordsman of Kinlu, Miyatomi Musashi. > I am Lady Sabrina, Valkyrie. Yonder is my trusted companion, Ajax. > > Would that I could bring you news of the great swordsman that you > seek, but I > fear that the Kingslayer may not be a single entity. It is my > understanding > that his demise was achieved due to weight of numbers and not an > honourable > duel. It pains me to think of such a great warrior being downed in such an > unworthy manner but this is what I think has come to pass. "Is this possible? Base curs bringing down a dragon? They should be punished." [draws his sword a finger's breadth, so that there may not be a misunderstanding of how expects the local authority to conjugate the verb "to punish"] > I have therefore taken it upon myself to come here to offer my > humble services > as a poor substitute for your long travel. I would be honoured if > you would > cross steel with me. (Nods back to MM with just the right amount > of nod and > tilt) [Eyes narrow] "Miyatomi Musashi, master swordsman of the Silver Path, will teach one who is worthy of instruction. However, first lesson must be patience. We await the kingslayer." [fully resheathes sword & sits upright with eyes set on the medium distance. He has finished talking, but you clearly have permission to remain in the presence] # Out-of-character information for Dean's amusement. # my script-writer, on beholding your first posting, wrote: # # Silver hawk rises # Wind whispers in cherry trees # Blood like petals falls > Michael Parkinson wrote: > > > With a precise, formalised & graceful gesture of a half-open hand and > > semi-nod of the head (tilted slightly to the right), MM acknowledges her > > presence & invites her to speak. > > > > > A woman rides up on a jet black winged horse and gracefully dismounts. > > > Her elegant clothing quietly whispers as she sits down in > Kinlu fashion, > > > close, without being too close. Her posture (polite without being > > > demure) is that of one warrior respectfully deferring to a warrior of > > > unknown strength or position, though probably strong in both. > She awaits > > > the attention of the swordsman...... > > > > > > Michael Parkinson wrote: > > > > > > > Late in the Month of Seedtime (i.e. 2nd month of Spring), > > > > a stranger approaches the guild and announces: > > > > > > > > "I am Miyatomi Musashi, master swordsman of Kinlu. > > > > I have never known defeat in battle. > > > > Where is the Kingslayer? > > > > I have journeyed far to match him steel for steel, > > > > to see which of us is the greater." > > > > > > > > He then sits in a position overlooking the Sweetwater, beneath the > > > > shade of a cherry tree -- where no-one can particularly remember > > > > one growing ... -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Dec 1 11:30:59 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id LAA26037; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 11:25:15 +1300 Received: from mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (mailhost.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.1.4]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id LAA26028; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 11:24:56 +1300 Received: from sci4 (lbr-122-42.lbrsc.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.122.42]) by mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (8.9.2/8.9.2/8.9.2-ua) with SMTP id LAA09563; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 11:12:25 +1300 (NZDT) Subject: FW: A challenge? Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 11:11:35 +1300 Message-ID: <000b01bf3b7f$ddaed090$2a7ad882@sci4> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 From: "Michael Parkinson" To: dq-pub@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq-pub@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq-pub@dq.sf.org.nz For public amusement, Since the public has a right to know (cleared with consent of participants) -- even if they would rather not exercise that right ! The story so far ... (although play may be stopped because of reign) regards, Michael Michael Parkinson ------------------------------------------------- The word for today is Iajutsu... the art of drawing your weapon and killing your opponent in the time it take a bead of sweat to fall. [Source: MD] =================================== > I greet the master swordsman of Kinlu, Miyatomi Musashi. > I am Lady Sabrina, Valkyrie. Yonder is my trusted companion, Ajax. > > Would that I could bring you news of the great swordsman that you > seek, but I > fear that the Kingslayer may not be a single entity. It is my > understanding > that his demise was achieved due to weight of numbers and not an > honourable > duel. It pains me to think of such a great warrior being downed in such an > unworthy manner but this is what I think has come to pass. "Is this possible? Base curs bringing down a dragon? They should be punished." [draws his sword a finger's breadth, so that there may not be a misunderstanding of how expects the local authority to conjugate the verb "to punish"] > I have therefore taken it upon myself to come here to offer my > humble services > as a poor substitute for your long travel. I would be honoured if > you would > cross steel with me. (Nods back to MM with just the right amount > of nod and > tilt) [Eyes narrow] "Miyatomi Musashi, master swordsman of the Silver Path, will teach one who is worthy of instruction. However, first lesson must be patience. We await the kingslayer." [fully resheathes sword & sits upright with eyes set on the medium distance. He has finished talking, but you clearly have permission to remain in the presence] # Out-of-character information for Dean's amusement. # my script-writer, on beholding your first posting, wrote: # # Silver hawk rises # Wind whispers in cherry trees # Blood like petals falls > Michael Parkinson wrote: > > > With a precise, formalised & graceful gesture of a half-open hand and > > semi-nod of the head (tilted slightly to the right), MM acknowledges her > > presence & invites her to speak. > > > > > A woman rides up on a jet black winged horse and gracefully dismounts. > > > Her elegant clothing quietly whispers as she sits down in > Kinlu fashion, > > > close, without being too close. Her posture (polite without being > > > demure) is that of one warrior respectfully deferring to a warrior of > > > unknown strength or position, though probably strong in both. > She awaits > > > the attention of the swordsman...... > > > > > > Michael Parkinson wrote: > > > > > > > Late in the Month of Seedtime (i.e. 2nd month of Spring), > > > > a stranger approaches the guild and announces: > > > > > > > > "I am Miyatomi Musashi, master swordsman of Kinlu. > > > > I have never known defeat in battle. > > > > Where is the Kingslayer? > > > > I have journeyed far to match him steel for steel, > > > > to see which of us is the greater." > > > > > > > > He then sits in a position overlooking the Sweetwater, beneath the > > > > shade of a cherry tree -- where no-one can particularly remember > > > > one growing ... -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Dec 1 13:29:18 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id NAA26195; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 13:26:53 +1300 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id NAA26192 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 13:26:52 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p28-tnt6.akl.ihug.co.nz [216.100.154.28]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id NAA30187 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 13:14:13 +1300 Subject: Re: Sub plots Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 13:13:23 +1300 Message-ID: <01bf3b90$e1baac20$1c9a64d8@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0013_01BF3BFD.D8B3F420" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01BF3BFD.D8B3F420 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A subplot comments on the main storyline. It is connected to the = storyline, and creates resonance within the story, by either echoing the = theme, or by counterpointing it.=20 In a roleplaying game, you don't have the luxury, because to have a = story that runs at counterpoint, or even in parallel, you have to have = characters involved in that subplot. These characters must be pursuing = their own story demands, which means that the players not directly = involved in the subplot can't know everything that's going on.=20 This creates a logistical nightmare, as you start DMing with little = bits of paper all over your desk, and the paranoia level of the party = climbing through the roof. Another problem with subplots is that they must climax before or = concurrantly with the main storyline. In rare cases, a subplot will = resolve after the main storyline, but it must climax with or before the = main action. If it climaxes afterwards, it becomes the main storyline, by = default. The last climax is the one that the participants are going to = take away as the most 'important' part of the story. It will most likely = be considered anticlimactic if the subplot peaks after the main action. = Important, but boring. The value of a subplot is that it allows a story to comment on = itself. In a roleplaying game, you have your players to provide the = comments. In many ways, it's unnecessary. In fact, if you introduced a = subplot, it would probably alter the balance so that the story the = players bring to the game was reduced, in effect, reducing the = commentary effect that we get freely from players. Another consideration about subplots is that they have to be = carefully controlled, so that they don't become the main storyline. In a = soap opera, or a comic book, subplots can easily turn into a major = storyline of their own. In this case, the subplot becomes a story = thread. It has its own pace and moment. These forms can accept that, = because they are designed never to conclude. A roleplaying game works in = the same sort of way, except that our point of view is always with the = main characters (i.e. the players), so instead of starting as subplots, = they start as potential adventures, which the players may choose or = decline. A DM may offer as many as half a dozen potential stories to the = players. The players may dither around and 'choose' as many as three = stories, by following up clues and the like. The DM may offer = foreshadowing and clues for these storylines. A lot of these are updates = on how those particular stories (that the players aren't directly = involved in) are progressing, or they're there to introduce critical = information about that story. However, this foreshadowing and clueing is = not a subplot. It is merely the building of tension, and a press kit on = what other things are going on in the world. About the only way you can introduce a subplot is when you DM a one = or two players from your usual group, to do something with them. = Usually, this is the kind of subplot where the characters are pointed up = in some fashion, to give them an opportunity to be explicated, in some = fashion. So, for example, you may decide to tempt a player with great = rewards, if they will only betray the party. It's not a fair test of the = player's loyalty if they get popped the question in front of the other = players, and neither is it a clear explication of the character. Any other questions? Jim. -----Original Message----- From: Andrew Withy (FAL AKL) To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Date: Wednesday, 1 December 1999 08:47 Subject: RE: Sub plots =20 =20 Jim;=20 'Cuse my ignorance. could you please explain the difference between = sub-plots and story threads, perhaps with an example. I'm not too sure = of the terms and the implications in a RPG settings. =20 Andrew=20 =20 -----Original Message-----=20 From: Jim Arona [SMTP:jimarona@ihug.co.nz]=20 =20 However, the focus of the plot needs to follow a certain story = line and I have found it is usually the unwaranted detailing of = extraneous elements that distracts players (this is not always a bad = thing as it can create interesting sub-plots or arcs withing the game = that are fun to follow for all in the game). =20 Well, how about this for extreme. You cannot have = subplots in a=20 roleplaying game. There is no story room for them.You can have = other story=20 threads, but you cannot have subplots in the usual sense of the = term.=20 Story threads don't have the same effect as subplots. = Neither do they=20 have the reflected power of them. They offer a DM the = possibility of taking=20 the story in different directions. They are, if you like, story=20 manoeuvrability.=20 Jim.=20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01BF3BFD.D8B3F420 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Sub plots

A subplot = comments on the=20 main storyline. It is connected to the storyline, and creates resonance = within=20 the story, by either echoing the theme, or by counterpointing it. =

In a=20 roleplaying game, you don't have the luxury, because to have a story = that runs=20 at counterpoint, or even in parallel, you have to have characters = involved=20 in that subplot. These characters must be pursuing their own story = demands,=20 which means that the players not directly involved in the subplot can't = know=20 everything that's going on.

This creates a logistical = nightmare, as you=20 start DMing with little bits of paper all over your desk, and the = paranoia level=20 of the party climbing through the roof.

Another problem with subplots is that they must climax = before or=20 concurrantly with the main storyline. In rare cases, a subplot will = resolve=20 after the main storyline, but it must climax with or before the main=20 action.

If=20 it climaxes afterwards, it becomes the main storyline, by default. The = last=20 climax is the one that the participants are going to take away as the = most=20 'important' part of the story. It will most likely be considered = anticlimactic=20 if the subplot peaks after the main action. Important, but=20 boring.

The value of a = subplot is=20 that it allows a story to comment on itself. In a roleplaying game, you = have=20 your players to provide the comments. In many ways, it's unnecessary. In = fact,=20 if you introduced a subplot, it would probably alter the balance so that = the=20 story the players bring to the game was reduced, in effect, reducing the = commentary effect that we get freely from players.

Another = consideration about=20 subplots is that they have to be carefully controlled, so that they = don't become=20 the main storyline. In a soap opera, or a comic book, subplots can = easily turn=20 into a major storyline of their own. In this case, the subplot becomes a = story=20 thread. It has its own pace and moment. These forms can accept that, = because=20 they are designed never to conclude. A roleplaying game works in the = same sort=20 of way, except that our point of view is always with the main characters = (i.e.=20 the players), so instead of starting as subplots, they start as = potential=20 adventures, which the players may choose or decline.

A DM may offer as = many as=20 half a dozen potential stories to the players. The players may dither = around and=20 'choose' as many as three stories, by following up clues and the like. = The DM=20 may offer foreshadowing and clues for these storylines. A lot of = these are=20 updates on how those particular stories (that the players aren't = directly=20 involved in) are progressing, or they're there to introduce critical = information=20 about that story. However, this foreshadowing and clueing is not a = subplot. It=20 is merely the building of tension, and a press kit on what other things = are=20 going on in the world.

About the only = way you can=20 introduce a subplot is when you DM a one or two players from your usual = group,=20 to do something with them. Usually, this is the kind of subplot where = the=20 characters are pointed up in some fashion, to give them an opportunity = to be=20 explicated, in some fashion. So, for example, you may decide to tempt a = player=20 with great rewards, if they will only betray the party. It's not a fair = test of=20 the player's loyalty if they get popped the question in front of the = other=20 players, and neither is it a clear explication of the=20 character.

Any other=20 questions?

= Jim.

-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Andrew Withy (FAL AKL) <AndrewW@falum.co.nz>
To:= =20 dq@dq.sf.org.nz <dq@dq.sf.org.nz>
Date:=20 Wednesday, 1 December 1999 08:47
Subject: RE: Sub=20 plots

Jim;
'Cuse my ignorance. could you please explain = the=20 difference between sub-plots and story threads, perhaps with an = example. I'm=20 not too sure of the terms and the implications in a RPG = settings.

Andrew=20

-----Original Message----- =
From: = Jim Arona = [SMTP:jimarona@ihug.co.nz]=20

However, the focus of the plot=20 needs to follow a certain story line and I have found = it is=20 usually the unwaranted detailing of extraneous elements that = distracts players (this is not always a bad = thing as it can=20 create interesting sub-plots or = arcs withing the=20 game that are fun to follow for all in the game).

=20 Well, how about this for extreme. You cannot have subplots in = a=20
roleplaying game. There is no = story room for=20 them.You can have other story
threads, but you cannot have subplots in the usual = sense of the=20 term.
= Story=20 threads don't have the same effect as subplots. Neither do = they=20
have the reflected power of = them. They offer=20 a DM the possibility of taking
the=20 story in different directions. They are, if you like, = story=20
manoeuvrability. =
Jim.

------=_NextPart_000_0013_01BF3BFD.D8B3F420-- -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Dec 1 13:44:53 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id NAA26228; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 13:40:20 +1300 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id NAA26225 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 13:40:17 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p28-tnt6.akl.ihug.co.nz [216.100.154.28]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id NAA32005 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 13:27:40 +1300 Subject: Re: Good And Evil. Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 13:26:51 +1300 Message-ID: <01bf3b92$c32c7d40$1c9a64d8@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0021_01BF3BFF.BA25C540" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01BF3BFF.BA25C540 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -----Original Message----- From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Date: Wednesday, 1 December 1999 10:02 Subject: Re: Good And Evil. =20 =20 Jim Arona wrote:=20 When we tell stories, we don't tell them to these weird fantasy = races. We tell them to humans. Whatever their players may think they = are, most DMs are convinced that players are human. Because they are. =20 Sure we tell the stories to humans, and we usually use aliens/mythic = being to illustrate humanity from another viewpoint. In Star Trek, for = example, the races with the pointy ears and silly noses are there to = contrast or illustrate human ethics/concepts/ideas/beliefs. By = attempting to see the world throught he eyes of an alien we learn more = about ourselves... and can perhaps present an idea in a new light.=20 =20 When you write a novel or a Star Trek episode you can be fairly sure = that the viewers are human. In an RPG the players are also human -- but = often they are trying their hardest to protray something non-human.=20 =20 They are portraying it to someone who is human, however. And, = more, to someone of our centuries sensibilities. We make use of our own = mores when playing RPGs, even when we aren't aware of it.=20 =20 For example, this century, as opposed to almost any of the = preceding ones, has seen a commitment to the protection of children, and = a level of cleanliness unknown, back then. Nevertheless, by default, our = worlds are clean, and safe for children. The dangerous things happen to = big, strong adventurer types. =20 If you want to see players squirm, introduce a pederast into = your game...I had a player do it once, and it gave me the creeps, for a = long time. =20 You can give validation to animals in other ways, most noticeably = in the fact that they are so powerful when compared to humans. =20 Being able to see in the dark is a very small thing to hang a = character conception on -- as is having pointy ears or a long beard. They don't just get to see in the dark. Given that concentration = on a player's strengths is a good idea, then animals have it all over = humans. They make the best fighters, thieves, mages, etc...They have = higher scores in the stats that make a player good at their chosen = vocation. And, if you're the only that can't see in the dark, as most = humans in the game can't, then you're at a serious disadvantage, = realistically. =20 I think it's desirablie to establish some theme of greatness to give = the human characters something to hold onto. The others can see in the = darkness. Humans have great stories because their spirits are great. =20 I agree. Many fantasy worlds, Alusia included, have the concept of = earlier ages, when magic was more powerful, and cities reached to the = clouds or flew there, when the gods walked the earth, yadda yadda yadda. = These past ages are often the desmense of an elder race... consider = Tolkien's earier ages with the third age of LotR. In the current age = these days of empire are gone, and if the elder race survives at all it = looks longingly back to past glories and reluctantly forward to an = uncertain future. Younger races rule and their stories are filled with = naive wonder, recent triumph, and hope for the future.=20 =20 =20 =20 Fine, then. Let elves have the Tolkien background. It is an = established part of RPGs. Keep angelic and demonic forces for humans.=20 =20 Jim. =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01BF3BFF.BA25C540 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Martin Dickson <martind@peace.com>
To: = dq@dq.sf.org.nz <dq@dq.sf.org.nz>
Date:=20 Wednesday, 1 December 1999 10:02
Subject: Re: Good And = Evil.

Jim Arona wrote:=20

When we = tell stories,=20 we don't tell them to these weird fantasy races. We tell = them to=20 humans. Whatever their players may think they are, most DMs = are=20 convinced that players are human. Because they=20 are.

Sure we tell the stories to humans, and we usually use = aliens/mythic=20 being to illustrate humanity from another viewpoint. In Star Trek, = for=20 example, the races with the pointy ears and silly noses are there to = contrast or illustrate human ethics/concepts/ideas/beliefs. By = attempting to=20 see the world throught he eyes of an alien we learn more about = ourselves...=20 and can perhaps present an idea in a new light.=20

When you write a novel or a Star Trek episode you can be fairly = sure that=20 the viewers are human. In an RPG the players are also human -- but = often=20 they are trying their hardest to protray something non-human.=20

They are=20 portraying it to someone who is human, however. And, more, to = someone of our=20 centuries sensibilities. We make use of our own mores when playing = RPGs,=20 even when we aren't aware of it.

For example, this century, as opposed to almost any of the = preceding=20 ones, has seen a commitment to the protection of children, and a = level of=20 cleanliness unknown, back then. Nevertheless, by default, our worlds = are=20 clean, and safe for children. The dangerous things happen to big, = strong=20 adventurer types.

If you want to see players squirm, introduce a pederast = into your=20 game...I had a player do it once, and it gave me the creeps, for a = long=20 time.

You can give validation to = animals in=20 other ways, most noticeably in the fact that they are so powerful = when=20 compared to humans.

Being able to see in the dark = is a very=20 small thing to hang a character conception on -- as is having pointy = ears or=20 a long beard. They = don't just get to=20 see in the dark. Given that concentration on a player's strengths is = a good=20 idea, then animals have it all over humans. They make the best = fighters,=20 thieves, mages, etc...They have higher scores in the stats that make = a=20 player good at their chosen vocation. = And, if you're the only that can't see in the dark, as most = humans in=20 the game can't, then you're at a serious disadvantage,=20 realistically.

I think it's desirablie to = establish=20 some theme of greatness to give the human characters = something to=20 hold onto. The others can see in the darkness. Humans have = great=20 stories because their spirits are=20 great.

I agree. Many fantasy worlds, Alusia included, have the = concept=20 of earlier ages, when magic was more powerful, and cities reached to = the=20 clouds or flew there, when the gods walked the earth, yadda yadda=20 yadda. These past ages are often the desmense of an elder = race...=20 consider Tolkien's earier ages with the third age of LotR. In = the=20 current age these days of empire are gone, and if the elder race = survives at=20 all it looks longingly back to past glories and reluctantly forward = to an=20 uncertain future. Younger races rule and their stories are = filled with=20 naive wonder, recent triumph, and hope for the future.

Fine, then.=20 Let elves have the Tolkien background. It is an established part of = RPGs.=20 Keep angelic and demonic forces for humans.

Jim.

------=_NextPart_000_0021_01BF3BFF.BA25C540-- -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Dec 1 13:59:59 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id NAA26272; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 13:51:32 +1300 Received: from enterprise.iconz.co.nz (enterprise.iconz.co.nz [210.48.22.40]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id NAA26269 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 13:51:31 +1300 Received: (qmail 18725 invoked from network); 1 Dec 1999 00:39:37 -0000 Received: from e0.firewall.ak.iconz.net.nz (HELO Escher) (202.14.100.208) by enterprise.iconz.co.nz with SMTP; 1 Dec 1999 00:39:37 -0000 Subject: RE: Demonology Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 13:37:32 +1300 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2918.2701 From: "Mandos Mitchinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > I don't believe that you have made much of an effort, really, > George. If that were the case, the Song of Songs would have > warranted a mention in the colourful and interesting parts. First > and second Kings would be in there, too, somewhere. For you perhaps, I don't find much colour in any of those area's as they have no appeal to me at all. As for the effort it is true that the level of interest and study I have put into it is almost certainly not even close to that of yourself but then bible study has never really appealed, I only read it out of out of mild interest. Mandos /s -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Dec 1 14:01:59 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id NAA26245; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 13:44:52 +1300 Received: from enterprise.iconz.co.nz (enterprise.iconz.co.nz [210.48.22.40]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id NAA26240 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 13:44:37 +1300 Received: (qmail 18155 invoked from network); 1 Dec 1999 00:32:44 -0000 Received: from e0.firewall.ak.iconz.net.nz (HELO Escher) (202.14.100.208) by enterprise.iconz.co.nz with SMTP; 1 Dec 1999 00:32:44 -0000 Subject: RE: Sub plots Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 13:30:39 +1300 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0002_01BF3C00.41CCA360" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2918.2701 From: "Mandos Mitchinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01BF3C00.41CCA360 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit RE: Sub plots About the only way you can introduce a subplot is when you DM a one or two players from your usual group, to do something with them. Usually, this is the kind of subplot where the characters are pointed up in some fashion, to give them an opportunity to be explicated, in some fashion. So, for example, you may decide to tempt a player with great rewards, if they will only betray the party. It's not a fair test of the player's loyalty if they get popped the question in front of the other players, and neither is it a clear explication of the character. I tried adding a subplot in an attempt to see if I could foster some competetive interest between the party members. Jim is 100% right that it does not work. It is a logistical nightmare to give players different aims and objectives and I was only doing a minor subplot that ran with the main story. If anyone can do this kind of thing and have it work can they let me know how as it is an idea I like but I am no where neaqr good enough as a GM to pull it off properly. Mandos /s ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01BF3C00.41CCA360 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Sub plots

About the only = way you can=20 introduce a subplot is when you DM a one or two players from your = usual group,=20 to do something with them. Usually, this is the kind of subplot where = the=20 characters are pointed up in some fashion, to give them an opportunity = to be=20 explicated, in some fashion. So, for example, you may decide to tempt = a player=20 with great rewards, if they will only betray the party. It's not a = fair test=20 of the player's loyalty if they get popped the question in front of = the other=20 players, and neither is it a clear explication of the=20 character.

I=20 tried adding a subplot in an attempt to see if I could foster some = competetive=20 interest between the party members. Jim is 100% right that it does = not=20 work. It is a logistical nightmare to give players different = aims and=20 objectives and I was only doing a minor subplot that ran with the main=20 story. If anyone can do this kind of thing and have it work can = they let me=20 know how as it is an idea I like but I am no where neaqr good enough as = a GM to=20 pull it off properly.

Mandos

------=_NextPart_000_0002_01BF3C00.41CCA360-- -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Dec 1 14:30:11 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id OAA26326; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 14:21:00 +1300 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id OAA26323 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 14:20:59 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p364-tnt6.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.136.124]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id OAA04173 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 14:08:24 +1300 Subject: Re: Sub plots Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 14:07:28 +1300 Message-ID: <01bf3b98$707d7080$7c886dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000E_01BF3C05.6776B880" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01BF3C05.6776B880 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -----Original Message----- From: Mandos Mitchinson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Date: Wednesday, 1 December 1999 13:49 Subject: RE: Sub plots =20 =20 =20 About the only way you can introduce a subplot is when you = DM a one or two players from your usual group, to do something with = them. Usually, this is the kind of subplot where the characters are = pointed up in some fashion, to give them an opportunity to be = explicated, in some fashion. So, for example, you may decide to tempt a = player with great rewards, if they will only betray the party. It's not = a fair test of the player's loyalty if they get popped the question in = front of the other players, and neither is it a clear explication of the = character. =20 I tried adding a subplot in an attempt to see if I could foster = some competetive interest between the party members. Jim is 100% right = that it does not work. It is a logistical nightmare to give players = different aims and objectives and I was only doing a minor subplot that = ran with the main story. If anyone can do this kind of thing and have it = work can they let me know how as it is an idea I like but I am no where = neaqr good enough as a GM to pull it off properly. =20 Mandos /s=20 =20 It's not about being good enough. It's a limit of the = medium...The focus of attention is always the players. You can't switch = between players in this way, without losing the dramatic momentum. The = audience (i.e., the people who experience the dramatic momentum) is the = players... Jim. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01BF3C05.6776B880 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Sub plots

-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Mandos Mitchinson <mandos@nexus.org.nz>
To:= =20 dq@dq.sf.org.nz <dq@dq.sf.org.nz>
Date:=20 Wednesday, 1 December 1999 13:49
Subject: RE: Sub=20 plots

About the = only way=20 you can introduce a subplot is when you DM a one or two players = from=20 your usual group, to do something with them. Usually, this is = the kind=20 of subplot where the characters are pointed up in some fashion, = to give=20 them an opportunity to be explicated, in some fashion. So, for = example,=20 you may decide to tempt a player with great rewards, if they = will only=20 betray the party. It's not a fair test of the player's loyalty = if they=20 get popped the question in front of the other players, and = neither is it=20 a clear explication of the character.

I=20 tried adding a subplot in an attempt to see if I could foster some=20 competetive interest between the party members. Jim is = 100% right that=20 it does not work. It is a logistical nightmare to give=20 players different aims and objectives and I was only doing a = minor=20 subplot that ran with the main story. If anyone can do this = kind of=20 thing and have it work can they let me know how as it is an idea I = like but=20 I am no where neaqr good enough as a GM to pull it off=20 properly.

Mandos

It's not about being good enough. It's a limit of the=20 medium...The focus of attention is always the players. You can't = switch=20 between players in this way, without losing the dramatic momentum. = The=20 audience (i.e., the people who experience the dramatic momentum) is = the=20 players...

Jim.

------=_NextPart_000_000E_01BF3C05.6776B880-- -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Dec 1 14:45:35 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id OAA26375; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 14:35:08 +1300 Received: from peace.com (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id OAA26372 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 14:35:06 +1300 Message-ID: <3844781C.4A474E52@peace.com> Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 14:21:32 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Sub plots Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > If anyone can do this kind of thing and have it work can they let me > know how as it is an idea I like but I am no where neaqr good enough > as a GM to pull it off properly Hi Mandos, One sub-plot I have seen done, and work, is a Romantic subplot. I don't get any credit for it as GM... the players did it all themselves. :) It may not have been introduced by the GM, but from an overall story point of view it was a legitimate and sensible subplot to the action/adventure and tensions going on around them. Cheers, Martin -- _/_/ Peace Software New Zealand Ltd Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com _/ Martin Dickson Fax : +64-9-373-0401 Analyst Phone: +64-9-373-0400 -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Dec 1 14:47:51 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id OAA26352; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 14:29:16 +1300 Received: from peace.com (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id OAA26349 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 14:29:15 +1300 Message-ID: <384476BB.766C1F77@peace.com> Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 14:15:39 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Good And Evil. Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Jim Arona wrote:

[Martin] Many fantasy worlds, Alusia included, have the concept of earlier ages... consider Tolkien's earier ages with the third age of LotR. In the current age these days of empire are gone, and if the elder race survives at all it looks longingly back to past glories and reluctantly forward to an uncertain future.

[Jim] Fine, then. Let elves have the Tolkien background. It is an established part of RPGs. Keep angelic and demonic forces for humans.

I'm going to preface this -- so I'm not misunderstood to be claiming the unalterable truth -- by saying that as my personal opinion, drawing on my experiences in DQ: The DQ angels and demons are not the angels and demons of our world's Judaeo-Christian-Islamic theology.

They do not have the same origin -- by which I mean enumerated and described by somewhat twitchy clerical types with an over fondness for the macabre. They do not have the same power, majesty or alternatively infernal terror associated with them. DQ may name the demons of the Solomonic manuscripts, but DQ does not have the Solomonic manuscripts... due in no small part to no Solomon. DQ has, as you suggested, 20th Century sensibilities and to a large degree 20th C freedoms and beliefs. It has not had a medieval/renaissance Roman Catholic Church... it does not have the same religious background as our world, the same history, the same people, the same anything.

It is a fantasy world with its own races, mythology, theology and history... even if these are badly recorded. If you want to do stories of biblical good and evil... that's great.... perhaps you might try "In Nomine" or a fantasy real-world variant like "Ars Magica". If you feel that you want to do real world angelology or demonology in DQ then off-plane is probably the best... your world, your rules.

For Alusia.. well... we call these evil spirits demons, and the designers lifted them partially from various occult sources (and where there was insufficient detail... they made it up)... but we could just as easily call them Jinn, or Glabrezu (or whatever TSR renamed theirs)... or "Evil Bobs"... they are not the same demons.

Perhaps once, what the original designers intended was for these demons to be the same as the mythical ones of our world. I think it might have been since most of the rest of the DQ monsters are drawn so directly from European myth. However, this is not the direction that the original campaign GMs chose. What I was told regarding religion in DQ (from the earliest GM meetings I attended), was that they chose not to portray real world religion so as to not offend players who were real world believers.

Whether or not this was a valid consideration no longer seems germane. The point is, we have a nearly 20 year history of them not being the same thing and trying to make them the same thing... well... without the religious infrastructure that supported medieval European thought it all just seems a bit foolish.

- Martin

Jim Arona wrote:=20

[Martin]=20 Many fantasy worlds, Alusia included, have the concept of = earlier=20 ages... consider Tolkien's earier ages with the third age of = LotR. In the current age these days of empire are = gone, and if=20 the elder race survives at all it looks longingly back to = past=20 glories and reluctantly forward to an uncertain=20 future.

[Jim] Fine,=20 then. Let elves have the Tolkien background. It is an = established=20 part of RPGs. Keep angelic and demonic forces for=20 humans.

I'm going to preface this -- so I'm not misunderstood to be = claiming=20 the unalterable truth -- by saying that as my personal opinion, = drawing on=20 my experiences in DQ: The DQ angels and demons are not the = angels and=20 demons of our world's Judaeo-Christian-Islamic theology.=20

They do not have the same origin -- by which I mean enumerated = and=20 described by somewhat twitchy clerical types with an over fondness = for the=20 macabre. They do not have the same power, majesty or = alternatively=20 infernal terror associated with them. DQ may name the demons = of the=20 Solomonic manuscripts, but DQ does not have the Solomonic = manuscripts... due=20 in no small part to no Solomon. DQ has, as you suggested, 20th = Century=20 sensibilities and to a large degree 20th C freedoms and = beliefs. It=20 has not had a medieval/renaissance Roman Catholic Church... it does = not have=20 the same religious background as our world, the same history, the = same=20 people, the same anything.=20

It is a fantasy world with its own races, mythology, theology and = history... even if these are badly recorded. If you want to do = stories=20 of biblical good and evil... that's great.... perhaps you might try = "In=20 Nomine" or a fantasy real-world variant like "Ars=20 Magica". If you feel that you want to do real world = angelology or=20 demonology in DQ then off-plane is probably the best... your world, = your=20 rules.=20

For Alusia.. well... we call these evil spirits demons, and the = designers=20 lifted them partially from various occult sources (and where there = was=20 insufficient detail... they made it up)... but we could just as = easily call=20 them Jinn, or Glabrezu (or whatever TSR renamed theirs)... or = "Evil=20 Bobs"... they are not the same demons.=20

Perhaps once, what the original designers intended was for these = demons=20 to be the same as the mythical ones of our world. I think it = might=20 have been since most of the rest of the DQ monsters are drawn so = directly=20 from European myth. However, this is not the direction that = the=20 original campaign GMs chose. What I was told regarding = religion in DQ=20 (from the earliest GM meetings I attended), was that they chose not = to=20 portray real world religion so as to not offend players who were = real world=20 believers.=20

Whether or not this was a valid consideration no longer seems=20 germane. The point is, we have a nearly 20 year history of = them not=20 being the same thing and trying to make them the same thing... = well...=20 without the religious infrastructure that supported medieval = European=20 thought it all just seems a bit foolish.=20

It's=20 completely foolish to then go on and develop a background for the = beasties,=20 and sell it as 'The Way Things Are'. It's not. It's just a view, and = you can=20 choose to use it, if you want to.

I, however, don't want to use it, and I won't. Ever. If you = want my=20 opinion of it, it's just stupid. It lacks resonances with the world = that we=20 are playing to, if not of the world we are playing = from.

And, frankly, I don't = give a toss=20 what the game designers intended. They have shown themselves pretty=20 incompetent in most areas of this game, so far, especially when you = consider=20 the other products on the market in the last few years.

However, as a = point of=20 interest, they didn't lift them from a variety of sources. They used = only=20 one, the Lemegeton. All of the demons come from that 'body of=20 work'.

The origins of = things of a=20 cosmic nature should always be shrouded in confusion and doubt, if = only=20 because to do otherwise denies the development of faith. If you have = something you know to be true, then how can you manifest any belief = in it?=20 This firm and declarative statement of the origin of the world = denies the=20 value of religion, except as a shop to go and talk to your = deity...In which=20 case, religion has more to do with political allegiances than acts = of=20 faith.

= Which, I believe,=20 is a move backwards in gaming, in general.

We = should=20 endeavour, as Daniel has said, to cover the tracks of whatever = cosmology DMs=20 inflict upon the world, so that another DM can rule as they deem = fit. This=20 isn't what you have done. It seems to me that you have defined,=20 unilaterally, how the world came to be. That denies any other DM the = opportunity to bring their own creation story. In this case, the = definition=20 that gets their first is the one that sticks, according to = you.

I = think that DMs=20 can show the origins of the world, in such a way that no-one can = state it as=20 the truth, although they can declare it as an article of = faith...And, that's=20 exactly the sort of thing we should be trying for.

Jim.

------=_NextPart_000_0062_01BF3C11.5B87CBC0-- -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Dec 1 19:04:05 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id SAA27172; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 18:58:57 +1300 Received: from usenet.net.nz (root@usenet.net.nz [203.29.170.93]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id SAA27168 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 18:58:55 +1300 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by usenet.net.nz (8.8.5/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA23070 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 16:12:07 +1300 Received: from paul (p17-max14.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.227.209]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id QAA24327 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 16:11:18 +1300 Message-ID: <004d01bf3baa$13bb8a00$6564640a@paul> Subject: Re: Sub plots Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 16:13:42 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0048_01BF3C17.093BEDA0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 From: "Paul Schmidt" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: "Paul Schmidt" , dq@dq.sf.org.nz This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0048_01BF3C17.093BEDA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Sub plotsI disagree with both Jim and Mandos, not on the nature of = sub-plots (well covered) but on wether or not they can work. Subplots = are difficult to handle because the medium doesn't allowing tracking or = intermediacy in the same way a play, book or TV series does. The trick = is setting the focus correctly when introduced. What needs to be done is = a clear posting that the introduced item is a subplot, but introduced in = such a fashion that suspension of disbelief inst ruined. The = introduction has to be this obvious or distraction or re-colouring = occurs that drags away from the main plot.=20 Paul ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Mandos Mitchinson=20 To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz=20 Sent: Wednesday, 1 December 1999 13:30 Subject: RE: Sub plots About the only way you can introduce a subplot is when you DM a = one or two players from your usual group, to do something with them. = Usually, this is the kind of subplot where the characters are pointed up = in some fashion, to give them an opportunity to be explicated, in some = fashion. So, for example, you may decide to tempt a player with great = rewards, if they will only betray the party. It's not a fair test of the = player's loyalty if they get popped the question in front of the other = players, and neither is it a clear explication of the character. =20 I tried adding a subplot in an attempt to see if I could foster some = competetive interest between the party members. Jim is 100% right that = it does not work. It is a logistical nightmare to give players different = aims and objectives and I was only doing a minor subplot that ran with = the main story. If anyone can do this kind of thing and have it work can = they let me know how as it is an idea I like but I am no where neaqr = good enough as a GM to pull it off properly. =20 Mandos /s=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0048_01BF3C17.093BEDA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Sub plots

I disagree with both Jim and Mandos, not on = the nature=20 of sub-plots (well covered) but on wether or not they can work. Subplots = are=20 difficult to handle because the medium doesn't allowing tracking or = intermediacy=20 in the same way a play, book or TV series does. The trick is setting the = focus=20 correctly when introduced. What needs to be done is a clear posting that = the=20 introduced item is a subplot, but introduced in such a fashion that = suspension=20 of disbelief inst ruined. The introduction has to be this obvious or = distraction=20 or re-colouring occurs that drags away from the main plot.

Paul

----- Original Message -----

From:=20 Mandos=20 Mitchinson

To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz

Sent: Wednesday, 1 December = 1999=20 13:30

Subject: RE: Sub plots

About the = only way you=20 can introduce a subplot is when you DM a one or two players from = your usual=20 group, to do something with them. Usually, this is the kind of = subplot where=20 the characters are pointed up in some fashion, to give them an = opportunity=20 to be explicated, in some fashion. So, for example, you may decide = to tempt=20 a player with great rewards, if they will only betray the party. = It's not a=20 fair test of the player's loyalty if they get popped the question in = front=20 of the other players, and neither is it a clear explication of the=20 character.

I=20 tried adding a subplot in an attempt to see if I could foster some = competetive=20 interest between the party members. Jim is 100% right that it = does not=20 work. It is a logistical nightmare to give players different = aims=20 and objectives and I was only doing a minor subplot that ran with the = main=20 story. If anyone can do this kind of thing and have it work can = they let=20 me know how as it is an idea I like but I am no where neaqr good = enough as a=20 GM to pull it off properly.

Mandos

------=_NextPart_000_0048_01BF3C17.093BEDA0-- -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Dec 1 19:19:22 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id TAA27260; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 19:18:07 +1300 Received: from enterprise.iconz.co.nz (enterprise.iconz.co.nz [210.48.22.40]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id TAA27257 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 19:18:02 +1300 Received: (qmail 20756 invoked from network); 1 Dec 1999 06:05:56 -0000 Received: from mandos.internet.co.nz (HELO mandos) (210.48.42.117) by enterprise.iconz.co.nz with SMTP; 1 Dec 1999 06:05:56 -0000 Subject: RE: Sub plots Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 19:10:31 +1300 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0042_01BF3C2F.BCD57B20" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 From: "Mandos D Shadowspawn Esq" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0042_01BF3C2F.BCD57B20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit RE: Sub plotsI disagree with both Jim and Mandos, not on the nature of sub-plots (well covered) but on wether or not they can work. Subplots are difficult to handle because the medium doesn't allowing tracking or intermediacy in the same way a play, book or TV series does. The trick is setting the focus correctly when introduced. What needs to be done is a clear posting that the introduced item is a subplot, but introduced in such a fashion that suspension of disbelief inst ruined. The introduction has to be this obvious or distraction or re-colouring occurs that drags away from the main plot. Could you give an example please? I am really keen to use additional elements in my games such as sublots but am having trouble understanding your intent in your above Email. Mandos /s ------=_NextPart_000_0042_01BF3C2F.BCD57B20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Sub plots

I disagree with both Jim and Mandos, not on = the nature=20 of sub-plots (well covered) but on wether or not they can work. = Subplots are=20 difficult to handle because the medium doesn't allowing tracking or=20 intermediacy in the same way a play, book or TV series does. The trick = is=20 setting the focus correctly when introduced. What needs to be done is = a clear=20 posting that the introduced item is a subplot, but introduced in such = a=20 fashion that suspension of disbelief inst ruined. The introduction has = to be=20 this obvious or distraction or re-colouring occurs that drags away = from the=20 main plot.

Could you give an example please? I am really = keen to use=20 additional elements in my games = such as=20 sublots but am having trouble understanding = your intent in=20 your above Email.

Mandos

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