From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Dec 2 03:13:34 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id DAA31386; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 03:12:48 +1300 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id DAA31383 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 03:12:47 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p182-tnt8.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.138.182]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id CAA03161; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 02:59:54 +1300 Subject: Re: Sub plots Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 02:59:18 +1300 Message-ID: <01bf3c04$42ac7f40$b68a6dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0011_01BF3C71.39A5C740" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01BF3C71.39A5C740 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -----Original Message----- From: Paul Schmidt To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Date: Wednesday, 1 December 1999 18:51 Subject: Re: Sub plots =20 =20 I disagree with both Jim and Mandos, not on the nature of sub-plots = (well covered) but on wether or not they can work. Subplots are = difficult to handle because the medium doesn't allowing tracking or = intermediacy in the same way a play, book or TV series does. The trick = is setting the focus correctly when introduced. What needs to be done is = a clear posting that the introduced item is a subplot, but introduced in = such a fashion that suspension of disbelief inst ruined. The = introduction has to be this obvious or distraction or re-colouring = occurs that drags away from the main plot.=20 =20 I don't think so. A subplot, by definition, must comment on the = story, while running alongside of it. That means you have to have other = characters than the ones who are playing the game involved in the same = story, but at a remove. In other words, a subplot must have some = connection to the main story, but may not be the main story. So, you = might, for example, have a subplot that was the story of the growing = romance between two characters on an adventure. The subplot is that = particular part of the main story, and the obstacles that are faced and = resolved separate from, but connected to that story.=20 When the subplot is being advanced, the main story line isn't.=20 A subplot does not use all of the central characters of the main = story line.=20 It might not use any of the central characters of the main story = line. Whenever you script in a subplot scene, you are denying the = other players the opportunity of playing. The most they become is the = audience, not a participant in the action, if that is even an option. If a sublplot involves all of the players, then it is no longer = a subplot, it is a plot complication in the main story line. That is = what most people confuse a subplot with.=20 In fact, romantic development of two characters within a main = story line is pretty questionable as a subplot, because in a roleplaying = game, all of the other characters get to take part in the subplot. It is = most likely a plot complication in the main story line.=20 This is not to say that it won't serve much the same function as = a subplot, just that it's limited in it's ability to comment on the main = story line.=20 Assuming the technical and logistical difficulties don't daunt = you, I'd be interested to know how you run a subplot which captures the = interest of those players not involved in the subplot sufficiently that = they hang around and watch, but offer no comment or remark of their own, = and then play without knowledge of the scene afterwards. Artforms that can easily manifest subplots have the audience to = carry the meaning between stories. In a roleplaying game, the DM and the = players are the only ones who can carry the meaning, and if none of the = PCs are part of the sublplot, then the only person carrying meaning = between stories is the DM. Unless the DM somehow conveys that meaning to = the players, then what's the point? In any case, what usually happens is = that the general gist of the subplot gets conveyed to the players as a = result of clueing by the DM. In this case, the subplot is understood. It = is only reported, not experienced, and serves only to give depth to the = 'offstage' action, really. Jim. ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01BF3C71.39A5C740 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Sub plots
 
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Paul Schmidt <pope.ug@ihug.co.nz>
To: = dq@dq.sf.org.nz <dq@dq.sf.org.nz>
Date:=20 Wednesday, 1 December 1999 18:51
Subject: Re: Sub=20 plots

I  disagree with both Jim and Mandos, not = on the=20 nature of sub-plots (well covered) but on wether or not they can = work.=20 Subplots are difficult to handle because the medium doesn't allowing = tracking or intermediacy in the same way a play, book or TV series = does. The=20 trick is setting the focus correctly when introduced. What needs to = be done=20 is a clear posting that the introduced item is a subplot, but = introduced in=20 such a fashion that suspension of disbelief inst ruined. The = introduction=20 has to be this obvious or distraction or re-colouring occurs that = drags away=20 from the main plot.
 
    I=20 don't think so. A subplot, by definition, must comment on the story, = while=20 running alongside of it. That means you have to have other = characters than=20 the ones who are playing the game involved in the same story, but at = a=20 remove. In other words, a subplot must have some connection to the = main=20 story, but may not be the main story. So, you might, for example, = have a=20 subplot that was the story of the growing romance between two = characters on=20 an adventure. The subplot is that particular part of the main story, = and the=20 obstacles that are faced and resolved separate from, but connected = to that=20 story.
    When the subplot is being = advanced,=20 the main story line isn't.
    A = subplot does=20 not use all of the central characters of the main story line. =
    It might not use any of the central = characters of=20 the main story line.
    = Whenever you=20 script in a subplot scene, you are denying the other players the = opportunity=20 of playing. The most they become is the audience, not a participant = in the=20 action, if that is even an option.
    If = a sublplot=20 involves all of the players, then it is no longer a subplot, it is a = plot=20 complication in the main story line. That is what most people = confuse a=20 subplot with.
    In = fact, romantic=20 development of two characters within a main story line is pretty=20 questionable as a subplot, because in a roleplaying game, all of the = other=20 characters get to take part in the subplot. It is most likely a plot = complication in the main story line.
    = This is not to=20 say that it won't serve much the same function as a subplot, just = that it's=20 limited in it's ability to comment on the main story line. =
    = Assuming the=20 technical and logistical difficulties don't daunt you, I'd be = interested to=20 know how you run a subplot which captures the interest of those = players not=20 involved in the subplot sufficiently that they hang around and = watch, but=20 offer no comment or remark of their own, and then play without = knowledge of=20 the scene afterwards.
    = Artforms that can=20 easily manifest subplots have the audience to carry the meaning = between=20 stories. In a roleplaying game, the DM and the players are the only = ones who=20 can carry the meaning, and if none of the PCs are part of the = sublplot, then=20 the only person carrying meaning between stories is the DM. Unless = the DM=20 somehow conveys that meaning to the players, then what's the point? = In any=20 case, what usually happens is that the general gist of the subplot = gets=20 conveyed to the players as a result of clueing by the DM. In this = case, the=20 subplot is understood. It is only reported, not experienced, and = serves only=20 to give depth to the 'offstage' action, really.
   =20 Jim.
------=_NextPart_000_0011_01BF3C71.39A5C740-- -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Dec 2 17:45:02 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id RAA01818; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 17:41:01 +1300 Received: from enterprise.iconz.co.nz (enterprise.iconz.co.nz [210.48.22.40]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id RAA01815 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 17:40:58 +1300 Received: (qmail 1070 invoked from network); 2 Dec 1999 04:28:24 -0000 Received: from e0.firewall.ak.iconz.net.nz (HELO Escher) (202.14.100.208) by enterprise.iconz.co.nz with SMTP; 2 Dec 1999 04:28:24 -0000 Subject: GM Stuff Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 17:26:15 +1300 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2918.2701 From: "Mandos Mitchinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Cancel the notice about my web site for 48 hours. They guy who organises internal web stuff is a moron :-) Mandos /s -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Dec 2 17:47:27 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id RAA01789; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 17:34:25 +1300 Received: from enterprise.iconz.co.nz (enterprise.iconz.co.nz [210.48.22.40]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id RAA01786 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 17:34:19 +1300 Received: (qmail 567 invoked from network); 2 Dec 1999 04:21:29 -0000 Received: from e0.firewall.ak.iconz.net.nz (HELO Escher) (202.14.100.208) by enterprise.iconz.co.nz with SMTP; 2 Dec 1999 04:21:29 -0000 Subject: GM Assistance Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 17:19:20 +1300 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2918.2701 From: "Mandos Mitchinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz I have just put up the first incarnation of my web site. Currently it has the spreadsheet stuff for colleges and NPC's that I have been working on but I will be expanding it to encompass more stuff to help GM's streamline the grunt work of running an adventure. The Url is user.iconz.co.nz/mandos comments and requests for content are most welcome as it is sparse at the moment. Mandos /s -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Dec 2 20:59:06 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id UAA02345; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 20:44:46 +1300 Received: from enterprise.iconz.co.nz (enterprise.iconz.co.nz [210.48.22.40]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id UAA02341 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 20:44:39 +1300 Received: (qmail 14474 invoked from network); 2 Dec 1999 07:32:02 -0000 Received: from e0.firewall.ak.iconz.net.nz (HELO Escher) (202.14.100.208) by enterprise.iconz.co.nz with SMTP; 2 Dec 1999 07:32:02 -0000 Subject: RE: GM Assistance Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 20:29:52 +1300 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2918.2701 From: "Mandos Mitchinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > I have just put up the first incarnation of my web site. > > Currently it has the spreadsheet stuff for colleges and NPC's that I have > been working on but I will be expanding it to encompass more stuff to help > GM's streamline the grunt work of running an adventure. > > The Url is user.iconz.co.nz/mandos comments and requests for content are > most welcome as it is sparse at the moment. Update It should not be active...... Mandos /s -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers --