From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Dec 6 06:58:07 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id GAA14692; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 06:54:23 +1300 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id GAA14688 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 06:54:07 +1300 Received: from phaeton (p17-tnt7.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.203.17]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id GAA26568 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 06:38:56 +1300 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991206064106.008d62e0@pop.ihug.co.nz> X-Sender: phaeton@pop.ihug.co.nz X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 06 Dec 1999 06:41:06 +1300 Subject: Seagate Times Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: Keith Smith To: dq-announce@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq-announce@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Contributions for the Seagate Times are wanted. Please send us your: News items Stories from adventures Quotable quotes Rumours What's Hot, What's Not Puzzles etc etc etc Deadline is Friday night. Keith (phaeton@ihug.co.nz) -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Dec 6 10:15:13 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id JAA15118; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 09:59:55 +1300 Received: from letterbox.cs.auckland.ac.nz (kakapo.cs.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.34.10]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id JAA15115 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 09:59:52 +1300 Received: from [130.216.108.110] (clare.cs.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.108.110]) by letterbox.cs.auckland.ac.nz (8.8.6/8.8.6/cs-master) with ESMTP id JAA09311 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 09:44:32 +1300 (NZDT) (sender clare@cs.auckland.ac.nz) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: clare@130.216.34.10 Message-Id: Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 09:44:29 +1300 Subject: Re:Seagate Times Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" From: clare@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Clare West) To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Kilroy: "This may go against popular belief - I am heroic but I am not stupid." Kilroy again later the same day: "Heroic, stupid, one and the same." -- Clare West, Rm 111, Ext 8266 clare@cs.auckland.ac.nz -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Dec 6 10:16:44 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id KAA15143; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 10:07:03 +1300 Received: from letterbox.cs.auckland.ac.nz (kakapo.cs.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.34.10]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id KAA15140 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 10:06:57 +1300 Received: from andrewlpc (andrew-l-pc.cs.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.34.146]) by letterbox.cs.auckland.ac.nz (8.8.6/8.8.6/cs-master) with SMTP id JAA08778 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 09:51:41 +1300 (NZDT) (sender andrew-l@cs.auckland.ac.nz) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991206095346.00a52810@staffpop.cs.auckland.ac.nz> X-Sender: andrew-l@staffpop.cs.auckland.ac.nz X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 06 Dec 1999 09:53:46 +1300 Subject: The Guild - do we need it? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: Andrew Luxton To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Just getting a discussion started on the purpose and value of the guild structure as it currently stands. Could it be better some other way? Preamble: The guild is a game mechanism that acts as the focal point for organising our role-playing games. It is worth noting that all of the in-game effects of the guild can be rationalised in other ways, so the importance of the guild is in the flavour (or colour if you like) that it adds to the game world. There are clearly two issues to discuss when we talk about the guild. Issue One: House Rules Firstly, there are the in-house rules which we all should agree upon and abide by (currently thing like: guild members are safe inside the guild grounds, guild security will find out if you have been bad on an adventure, etc). These are currently achieved through the (somewhat artificial) mechanism of the guild, but could be achieved in any number of other ways. We should look at these in-house rules and decide which of them are desirable. Issue Two: Flavour provided by The Guild Secondly, the flavour/colour/character of the guild should be addressed. Now (with various millennial events occurring) is a good time to address it. Currently, characters swear allegiance to The Guild, which is a large, extremely powerful, almost impenetrable, but badly run mercenary organisation. I do not believe that the guild structure we have is one which engenders the right attitude amongst players. The rationale which we have chosen (current guild structure) is one which (among other things) strains the suspension of disbelief, encourages mercenary behaviour, and discourages allegiances elsewhere. Personal View: Personally, I favour a radical view which would have the guild completely disbanded. The adventures guild would become a group of adventurers with NO land, organisation, or bureaucracy. At the beginning of each season, the group of people currently looking for adventures (or plying trade) would meet at a particular location (Monument, Obelisk, Tavern, Town Square, whatever). People wanting adventurers would also meet and have turns advertising their needs, parties would form and adventurers follow. Any services (training included) would be obtained from an appropriate person/guild in a city at a reasonably consistent price (given in the players guides etc). Given a document outlining prices (such as the players guide), players could actually be creative about where they obtained the training - who cares if it wasn't from The Guild. (e.g. Grod the barbarian wants training in two-handed sword and Ranger(plains). Instead of going to the guild and getting trained, the player decides it would be much more interesting if Grod joined a wagon train travelling towards the Sea of Grass to trade with some small villages. On the way, he learnt how to be a ranger from one of the wagon scouts, and another of the guards taught him how to use a two-handed sword more skillfully. It still costs the same (rationalised spending money buying beer and small gifts for his new found friends), takes the same time and is much more interesting than the guild structure). Magical training is more tricky because it is supposedly uncommon in the world. NPC adventurers would be around in the world, just like PCs. These NPCs could offer training when required (just make up a suitable story). At the "meeting of adventurers", characters could organise training with NPC's later in the session. The player can make all this stuff up without GM intervention, as long as it follows the guidelines in the players guide. All the same training can be available, just using a different, more flexible and creative rationale. What more do we need? Looking foward to comments Andrew ------------------------------------------------------------------- Andrew Luxton andrew-l@cs.auckland.ac.nz Department of Computer Science http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz University of Auckland Phone: +64 9 3737 599 x5654 Private Bag 92019, Auckland, NZ Fax: +64 9 3737 453 -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Dec 6 10:28:07 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id KAA15318; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 10:27:17 +1300 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id KAA15314 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 10:27:11 +1300 Received: from phaeton (p193-tnt1.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.111.193]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id KAA18002 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 10:11:55 +1300 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991206101400.008d5880@pop.ihug.co.nz> X-Sender: phaeton@pop.ihug.co.nz X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 06 Dec 1999 10:14:00 +1300 Subject: Gods meeting minutes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: Keith Smith To: dq-announce@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq-announce@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz DQ GODS MEETING 5th December 1999 Present: Martin, William, Phil, Mike Young, Jono, Paul, Andrew Luxton, Mike Parkinson, Jim, Keith, Claire, Jason, Scott, Ian, Stephen, Adam 1) Discussion of Healing Potions Some GMs were not interested in monitoring expiry dates. Also there was a general feeling that there should be a fixed amount. The straw poll vote on removing the duration passed (7/1/2). Finally it was decided that they should be ten pointers with an unlimited shelf life. 2) Spell prices Some people felt that there were too many spells available for purchase but, in many cases, obtaining a spell not on the list basically depends on who the player knows. Maybe quest spells should not be teachable to other players? There should be some impetus to actually go out and find spells on adventure. Also it was felt that Pasifistic Earth Mages no longer had easy access to their utility spells. The vote was taken to accept the document in general with the exception of the Pasifistic Earth section. Passed (9/1/4) 3) Magic Resistance It was voted that MR is not a stat check. Passed (11/1/1). 4) Dark Circle This campaign event was presented by Jono and Mike Young. Some discussion occurred. Anyone interested in knowing what is happening, please contact them or your GM. 5) Adventures going out a) Phil - Med/High. An alchemist wants his castle back b) Mike - Current high adventure, rescuing Herkum, going over to this session. He could run another game afterwards. c) Paul - Medium/high. Retrieving treasure d) Jim - Medium, offplane. Not Wednesday. Finding phoenix e) Andrew - Low. Redemption adventure? f) Claire - Medium/low. Rescue mission g) Ian - Medium/low. Offplane. Starting January h) Mandos - Medium/high. 6) Rules General Business a) No news to report on Fire. Still under playtest b) Namer version 2.02 available soon c) Mind currently on hold pending revision of Indetecability. It was suggested that the spell be dropped. 7) Rebuilding the Guild We still need to determine what we want the Guild to be after the crisis. It's main purpose is to allow PCs to get together and organise adventures, the rest could be classed as excess baggage. The Guild doesn't seem to interact much with the 'real' world and it is generally believed that if you make it to the Guild, you are safe from any threat, even though this may not be true in practise. It's difficult to determine what happens at the Guild as it is not often clear who is there. We need to determine what we want to happen to the Guild and whether or not it is divorced from the world. A direction needs to be chosen. 8) Campaign General Business There was some agreement that a Fimblewinter could occur if we wanted one. Meeting Closed -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Dec 6 10:58:07 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id KAA15457; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 10:47:31 +1300 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id KAA15453 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 10:47:21 +1300 Received: from phaeton (p193-tnt1.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.111.193]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id KAA00777 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 10:32:01 +1300 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991206103402.008d7100@pop.ihug.co.nz> X-Sender: phaeton@pop.ihug.co.nz X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 06 Dec 1999 10:34:02 +1300 Subject: Amendment to minutes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: Keith Smith To: dq-announce@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq-announce@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Adam Tennent should be listed as running the redemption adventure, not Andrew Luxton. Please make the appropriate amendment in your records. My apologies to all concerned for the mixup. Keith (phaeton@ihug.co.nz) -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Dec 6 11:39:04 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id LAA00801; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 11:25:13 +1300 Received: from peace.com (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id LAA00798 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 11:25:12 +1300 Message-ID: <384AE5DF.985DE091@peace.com> Date: Mon, 06 Dec 1999 11:23:27 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: The Guild - do we need it? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Andrew Luxton wrote: > Currently, characters swear allegiance to The Guild... It may not matter but, characters do not "swear allegiance" to the Guild. They agree/sign/swear/whatever to uphold the rules and regulations of the Guild, and the Guild holds its charter from the Duke granting them certain rights, priviledges and obligations. Quite a few characters do have allegiances elsewhere, whether directly to the Duke of Carzala, or other Western princes, or further afield. Presumably other Guild members are covered by whatever rights and obligations cover either citizens of Carzala or foreign visitors. To use a PC of mine as an example: Mortimer is a Knight of Alfheim and has a sworn allegiance to the Elven Queen, can be called up in time of war, etc, and is a member of the elite archers of Prince Eoren, the Warden of the North -- there's a longbow out there somewhere with my name on it. LOL. He is a "Free Warrior" (tribe member) of the Wolf Clan of the Sea of Grass barbarians -- more a passport than an allegiance... but presumably they could try and call on him as a brother warrior in times of strife. He was born in Borastor, lives near New Seagate, and is subject to the usual rights and obligations that go with being a citizen of Carzala... which would probably include being called up by the Duke... or at least being called upon to provide money/skills/or troops in time of war. He has signed a contract with the Adventurer's Guild stating that he agrees to, and will uphold their rules and regs. Cheers, Martin -- _/_/ Peace Software New Zealand Ltd Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com _/ Martin Dickson Fax : +64-9-373-0401 Analyst Phone: +64-9-373-0400 -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Dec 6 11:41:21 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id LAA00772; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 11:18:38 +1300 Received: from enterprise.iconz.co.nz (enterprise.iconz.co.nz [210.48.22.40]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id LAA00769 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 11:18:36 +1300 Received: (qmail 17971 invoked from network); 5 Dec 1999 22:19:02 -0000 Received: from e0.firewall.ak.iconz.net.nz (HELO Escher) (202.14.100.208) by enterprise.iconz.co.nz with SMTP; 5 Dec 1999 22:19:02 -0000 Subject: RE: The Guild - do we need it? Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 11:16:41 +1300 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2918.2701 From: "Mandos Mitchinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Issue One: House Rules > Firstly, there are the in-house rules which we all should agree upon and > abide by (currently thing like: guild members are safe inside the guild > grounds, guild security will find out if you have been bad on an > adventure, > etc). These are currently achieved through the (somewhat artificial) > mechanism of the guild, but could be achieved in any number of other ways. > We should look at these in-house rules and decide which of them > are desirable. Just seeing them written down would be a good start. :-) > Issue Two: Flavour provided by The Guild > Secondly, the flavour/colour/character of the guild should be addressed. > Now (with various millennial events occurring) is a good time to address > it. Currently, characters swear allegiance to The Guild, which is a > large, extremely powerful, almost impenetrable, but badly run mercenary > organisation. I do not believe that the guild structure we have is one > which engenders the right attitude amongst players. The > rationale which we > have chosen (current guild structure) is one which (among other things) > strains the suspension of disbelief, encourages mercenary behaviour, and > discourages allegiances elsewhere. I like the general concept of the Guild as the equivilent of a Union. We all pay our Union dues and the guild sorts out any squabbles between members and does the diplomatic stuff and so forth. I think that can provide a nice backdrop for adventures and can be used effectivly to add a little colour to the start of an adventure. Problems I do see are the invunerability option and the attitudes of the member. The invunerability problem is simply a storyline problem. The classic example are the calamar which the guild has been fighting, insulting and mixing it up with for a while now. Eventually the clamar wold be likely to get sick of the guild and try to blow the crap out of it. Not much that can be done about it but having the members scattered does negate the concept happening. The member attitudes is a strange one and I am not sure that it is the guild structure that encourages it. Instead I think the likely cause is the duration of the characters playing life. People play so long enough to really get attatched to their characters. You spend 9 years playing a character that you really enjoy and you are going to be a little cautious when your ass is on the line. I don't think a change in the way the guild operates is going to change that at all, and in fact the better options is to change the style of games we GM to reflect this and work with that in mind. EG Time restrictions force players/characters to make rapid desisions and commit to actions. Overall I like the way the guild works at the moment but the investigation of the way it runs and some clarifications of the house rules is a damn good idea. Mandos /s -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Dec 6 12:32:57 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id MAA02924; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 12:20:44 +1300 Received: from mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (mailhost.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.1.4]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id MAA02918 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 12:20:40 +1300 Received: from sci4 (lbr-122-42.lbrsc.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.122.42]) by mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (8.9.2/8.9.2/8.9.2-ua) with SMTP id MAA25205 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 12:20:21 +1300 (NZDT) Subject: RE: The Guild - do we need it? Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 12:19:23 +1300 Message-ID: <000101bf3f77$2a7804f0$2a7ad882@sci4> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 From: "Michael Parkinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz I agree with Mandos. > > [When Andrew said: ...] The Guild, which is a > > large, extremely powerful, almost impenetrable, but badly run mercenary > > organisation. [...] > > [Mandos said:] I like the general concept of the Guild as the equivalent of a Union. We all > pay our Union dues and the guild sorts out any squabbles between > members and does the diplomatic stuff and so forth. I think that can provide a nice > backdrop for adventures and can be used effectively to add a > little colour to the start of an adventure. The guild in NOT mercenary -- well not the adventuring members, anyway. It is a mechanism for people to go adventuring. The definition of mercenary is: "1. a. Working merely for money or other reward; hired; hence... 2. n. Hired soldier in foreign service." [Concise Oxford] I believe very few members of the guild work MERELY for money -- I know I've only ever had one PC who was a mercenary in this sense. Although clearly sufficient pay is important for a character to be able to live or develop; many characters have strong ideological grounds for choosing particular adventures; and others choose adventures because it is the sort of experience that they are looking for. Furthermore our game mechanic does not equate monetary income with experience in the manner of 1 g.p. = 1 e.p. unlike my archaic memories of D&D, for example. Nonetheless, I would not disagree significantly with Andrew when he says: > > I do not believe that the guild structure we have is one > > which engenders the right attitude amongst players. The > > rationale which we > > have chosen (current guild structure) is one which (among other things) > > strains the suspension of disbelief, encourages mercenary behaviour, and > > discourages allegiances elsewhere. Too often we *do* equate potential with power with value with reward. The strength of our system is that *many,* regrettably not all, players have developed allegiances elsewhere including to abstract concepts such as justice & chivalry. As a GM, I reward the players for being clever & successful -- but seldom is judged on a monetary basis; indeed a player should gain more Experience ,as an abstract concept (hence e.p. as a game mechanic) from those acts & decisions which spurn easy amoral wealth in favour tougher decisions which test the soul & body and which are ultimately "right" -- even when the character's concept of what is rightminded has evolved over the years. I only hope that this has been made clear to my players at the close of each adventure. -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Dec 6 13:18:28 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id NAA08957; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 13:03:21 +1300 Received: from westpac.co.nz (firewall1.westpac.co.nz [210.55.236.18]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id NAA08954 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 13:03:18 +1300 Received: by firewall1.westpac.co.nz id <32269>; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 13:06:05 +1300 X-Lotus-FromDomain: WESTPACTRUST Message-Id: <99Dec6.130605nzdt.32269@firewall1.westpac.co.nz> Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 14:02:54 +1300 Subject: RE: The Guild - do we need it? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline From: "Mark Simpson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz One thing that I havn't send mentioned is the guild role as a sort of police force over the players. Andrew suggested: >The adventures guild would become a group of adventurers with >NO land, organisation, or bureaucracy. At the beginning of each season, >the group of people currently looking for adventures (or plying trade) >would meet at a particular location (Monument, Obelisk, Tavern, Town >Square, whatever). People wanting adventurers would also meet and have >turns advertising their needs, parties would form and adventurers follow. I would suggest that if this proposal was adopted, and the current guild structures therefore disbanded, characters would be much more at liberty to steal from the party (furtively or openly), abandon the party, ignoring/disobeying party leaders/mil sci's, attack/kill/bully other party members with or without the excuse of provocation etc. These sorts of things can lead to some interesting roleplaying if handled very carefully, but the most likely result, in my view, is that it will end in tears. Also rescue missions would not be funded/organised by the guild as the guild would not have the structure to even monitor if such a mission was necessary (who would you report to when an adventure/mission was complete or had gone horribly wrong ?). /\/\ark -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Dec 6 14:18:07 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id OAA12605; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 14:12:13 +1300 Received: from letterbox.cs.auckland.ac.nz (kakapo.cs.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.34.10]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id OAA12602 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 14:12:10 +1300 Received: from andrewlpc (andrew-l-pc.cs.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.34.146]) by letterbox.cs.auckland.ac.nz (8.8.6/8.8.6/cs-master) with SMTP id OAA12562 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 14:11:48 +1300 (NZDT) (sender andrew-l@cs.auckland.ac.nz) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991206141430.00a21e60@staffpop.cs.auckland.ac.nz> X-Sender: andrew-l@staffpop.cs.auckland.ac.nz X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 06 Dec 1999 14:14:30 +1300 Subject: Mercenary Guild Members [was The Guild - do we need it] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: Andrew Luxton To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz At 12:19 6/12/1999 +1300, Mike P. wrote: >The guild in NOT mercenary -- well not the adventuring members, anyway. It >is a mechanism for people to go adventuring. The definition of mercenary >is: > >"1. a. Working merely for money or other reward; hired; hence... 2. n. >Hired soldier in foreign service." [Concise Oxford] > >I believe very few members of the guild work MERELY for money -- I know I've >only ever had one PC who was a mercenary in this sense. I disagree. There have been few adventures which offer no reward. Almost all the adventures which are announced offer a REWARD of some sort, and it is this reward which motivates many of the guild adventurers. I believe the characters which would go on an adventure knowing that it will cost them dearly, but it is the "right thing to do" are in the minority. In spite of the real intentions of the characters, the feeling which is obtained from taking part in a Guild Meeting is that employers offer money (or other reward) in return for a guild party doing a job. No matter what mission is offered (good bad or ugly), enough players will show up and the game is played. As an organisation, the guild accepts (almost) all missions offered, the vast majority of which involve hiring characters for suitable reward... In my opinion, that makes the guild a mercenary organisation (even if individual characters are not mercenary by nature). The whole idea of "contracts" between the "party employer" and the "party" to do a "job/mission" makes the whole thing seem to be about the reward at the end, not the story of how you got there. I have personally been on many games where the party has ignored interesting events because they were not part of "the job". I would much prefer that characters went on adventures, not jobs. I would encourage more GMs to run games in which the hook is not based on any reward, but motives characters by appealing to their sence of what is "right". In this way we can start to bring about the sence of "adventuring" which seems to be lacking in the Guild. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Andrew Luxton andrew-l@cs.auckland.ac.nz Department of Computer Science http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz University of Auckland Phone: +64 9 3737 599 x5654 Private Bag 92019, Auckland, NZ Fax: +64 9 3737 453 -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Dec 6 14:48:00 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id OAA13315; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 14:46:15 +1300 Received: from letterbox.cs.auckland.ac.nz (kakapo.cs.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.34.10]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id OAA13312 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 14:46:12 +1300 Received: from andrewlpc (andrew-l-pc.cs.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.34.146]) by letterbox.cs.auckland.ac.nz (8.8.6/8.8.6/cs-master) with SMTP id OAA11164 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 14:45:47 +1300 (NZDT) (sender andrew-l@cs.auckland.ac.nz) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991206144829.00a16c80@staffpop.cs.auckland.ac.nz> X-Sender: andrew-l@staffpop.cs.auckland.ac.nz X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 06 Dec 1999 14:48:29 +1300 Subject: RE: The Guild - do we need it? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: Andrew Luxton To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz At 14:02 6/12/1999 +1300, Mark S. wrote: >One thing that I havn't send mentioned is the guild role as a sort of >police force over the players. [without the current guild structure...] >characters would be much more at liberty to >steal from the party (furtively or openly), abandon the party, >ignoring/disobeying party leaders/mil sci's, attack/kill/bully other party >members with or without the excuse of provocation etc. These sorts of You have missed the point. You are talking about the house rules which we use when playing the game. The guild does not enforce them. The guild acts as a game mechanic for GM's to use as a method of enforcing such house rules. We can choose a wide variety of other mechanics to enforce the same rules if we wish. The Guild does not enforce good behaviour nor penalise bad behaviour. GM's choose when to apply penalties for actions which they perceive as "bad" and sometimes use the guild as the mechanism to implement these penalties. The main house rule which seems to be applied is "Don't screw with other peoples characters". Play nice in the sandpit. Specifically: Don't kill them, Don't steal from them, Don't leave them for dead, Don't knock them unconsious, tie them up and carry them around in a sack for the whole adventure because that is the safest way to travel with them etc. I have two major problems with the current mechanism of the Adventurers Guild: (1). I find it constantly difficult to suspend disbelief where the Guild is concerned. It just doesn't hold together as part of the world. The best I can do is sigh, say "yep.. game mechanics huh" and try to ignore it. Why doesn't the guild use it's resources to help it's members? Why does it cost so much to learn spells... game mechanics. Fine. I do think however, that there are ways to rationalise these effects which require less effort to suspend disbelief. (2). The Guild takes the characters out of the world. The characters retreat to the guild, and train at the guild for months at a time with no interaction with the rest of the world. The are safe at the guild and abstracted from any campaign or ongoing world events. There are no adventure hooks at the guild. It just doesn't engender the kinds of relations with the world/environment that make for a much richer game. Andrew ------------------------------------------------------------------- Andrew Luxton andrew-l@cs.auckland.ac.nz Department of Computer Science http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz University of Auckland Phone: +64 9 3737 599 x5654 Private Bag 92019, Auckland, NZ Fax: +64 9 3737 453 -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Dec 6 15:02:35 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id OAA13340; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 14:48:16 +1300 Received: from mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (mailhost.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.1.4]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id OAA13337 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 14:48:09 +1300 Received: from sci4 (lbr-122-42.lbrsc.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.122.42]) by mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (8.9.2/8.9.2/8.9.2-ua) with SMTP id OAA15270 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 14:47:50 +1300 (NZDT) Subject: RE: Mercenary Guild Members [was The Guild - do we need it] Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 14:46:53 +1300 Message-ID: <000201bf3f8b$c56de1a0$2a7ad882@sci4> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 From: "Michael Parkinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > >"1. a. Working merely for money or other reward; hired; hence... 2. n. > >Hired soldier in foreign service." [Concise Oxford] > > > >I believe very few members of the guild work MERELY for money -- > I know I've > >only ever had one PC who was a mercenary in this sense. > > I disagree. There have been few adventures which offer no reward. You miss the point. A character is mercenary ONLY if it goes on the mission MERELY for the reward. -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Dec 6 15:32:44 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id PAA13448; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 15:20:27 +1300 Received: from enterprise.iconz.co.nz (enterprise.iconz.co.nz [210.48.22.40]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id PAA13444 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 15:20:24 +1300 Received: (qmail 10451 invoked from network); 6 Dec 1999 02:20:50 -0000 Received: from e0.firewall.ak.iconz.net.nz (HELO Escher) (202.14.100.208) by enterprise.iconz.co.nz with SMTP; 6 Dec 1999 02:20:50 -0000 Subject: RE: Mercenary Guild Members [was The Guild - do we need it] Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 15:18:28 +1300 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2918.2701 From: "Mandos Mitchinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > I disagree. There have been few adventures which offer no reward. Almost > all the adventures which are announced offer a REWARD of some sort, and it > is this reward which motivates many of the guild adventurers. I believe > the characters which would go on an adventure knowing that it will cost > them dearly, but it is the "right thing to do" are in the minority. I can see both sides of this. I have been on and run games with no real reward offered and players are interested and keen without monetary reward. However the fact that they exist in no way ignores the fact that a bulk of the adventures are for payment. On the other hand payment is a good way to encourage people to do things. The simple fact is that either cash or orders are the two main incentives for people to do stuff. Curiosity is a personal thing and while it is a cool thing to have on an adventure it is up to the party as a group to either have or not have on an adventure. If you want to investigate the ruins then you need to convince the rest of the party. This would be the case regardless of the adventure. Mandos /s -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Dec 6 15:34:01 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id PAA13431; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 15:19:38 +1300 Received: from mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (mailhost.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.1.4]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id PAA13428 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 15:19:36 +1300 Received: from sci4 (lbr-122-42.lbrsc.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.122.42]) by mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (8.9.2/8.9.2/8.9.2-ua) with SMTP id PAA19809 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 15:19:16 +1300 (NZDT) Subject: FW: Mercenary Guild Members [was The Guild - do we need it] Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 15:18:17 +1300 Message-ID: <000001bf3f90$28626200$2a7ad882@sci4> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 From: "Michael Parkinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sorry, I pushed the wrong button. I started to say: > >"1. a. Working merely for money or other reward; hired; hence... 2. n. > >Hired soldier in foreign service." [Concise Oxford] > > > >I believe very few members of the guild work MERELY for money -- > I know I've > >only ever had one PC who was a mercenary in this sense. > > I disagree. There have been few adventures which offer no reward. You miss the point. A character is mercenary ONLY if it goes on the mission MERELY for the reward. and I should have continued: I believe *most* characters with atleast several seasons' experience choose to go on a particular mission because they wish to see it succeed for personal reasons. Sometimes this is because of lofty motives; Other times its to get even with an NPC who has triumphed over the PC or the guild in the past. Indeed, given the dubious or imperfect morality of almost all NPCs, these two aims are seldom in conflict. There are other reasons -- e.g., the character is curious (or suspicious) about what is going on at a named destination -- but it is almost always the character's individual interests or prejudices which motivates them to sign on a particular mission. I believe very few players will do ANY mission purely for the fiscal reward. And it is current guild practice (i.e., a game mechanism) that the guild will NOT organise missions which clearly have an immoral mission. -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Dec 6 16:08:07 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id PAA13747; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 15:47:47 +1300 Received: from enterprise.iconz.co.nz (enterprise.iconz.co.nz [210.48.22.40]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id PAA13743 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 15:47:41 +1300 Received: (qmail 12924 invoked from network); 6 Dec 1999 02:48:04 -0000 Received: from e0.firewall.ak.iconz.net.nz (HELO Escher) (202.14.100.208) by enterprise.iconz.co.nz with SMTP; 6 Dec 1999 02:48:04 -0000 Subject: RE: Mercenary Guild Members [was The Guild - do we need it] Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 15:45:42 +1300 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2918.2701 From: "Mandos Mitchinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > And it is current guild practice (i.e., a game mechanism) that the guild > will NOT organise missions which clearly have an immoral mission. And this is one of the things that does bug me about the guild. Whose morals count here? At what point does the guild step in and why should it care? The only reason I can see is if the characters get caught in illegal actions but then the guild supposedly has a policy of assisting the legal process when a guild member gets into trouble. If that is the case who care what the adventurers are hired to do as long as the local law of that place either will never find out how to get to the Guild or the members don't get caught. Mandos /s -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Dec 6 16:10:10 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id PAA13737; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 15:47:02 +1300 Received: from westpac.co.nz (firewall1.westpac.co.nz [210.55.236.18]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id PAA13734 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 15:47:01 +1300 Received: by firewall1.westpac.co.nz id <32265>; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 15:49:51 +1300 X-Lotus-FromDomain: WESTPACTRUST Message-Id: <99Dec6.154951nzdt.32265@firewall1.westpac.co.nz> Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 16:46:49 +1300 Subject: RE: The Guild - do we need it? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline From: "Mark Simpson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz >You have missed the point. You are talking about the house rules which we >use when playing the game. The guild does not enforce them. The guild >acts as a game mechanic for GM's to use as a method of enforcing such house >rules. We can choose a wide variety of other mechanics to enforce the same >rules if we wish. Ummm, as far as I was aware the guild does enforce those rules, very rigorously, and that was the point I was making. I have seen guild security called in to "interview" (with mind mages) characters suspected of such things and have seen the guild impose severe sanctions on those found guilty (ie permanent death, lose of endurance etc). This was done, in the more serious cases, not by the GM concerned but by some guild tribunal made up of multiple GM's (which does not sound to me like mere "house rules" played by some GM's). Now this doesnt happen often, but then it doesn't need to in order to have the desired effect on the behaviour of pc's. My understanding was that the players/characters knew the guild rules and contents of guild contract and, whats more they also knew that whichever GM they were playing under that those rules will be strictly enforced. You claim the current guild structure which enforces these rules is inhibiting your suspension of disbelief and claim "there are [other] ways to rationalise these effects which require less effort to suspend disbelief". What are they? Given that under your proposed system guild security etc would disappear and the guild become a loose grouping that met together once a season, I would be interested to see you device for policing these basic rules that doesn't invovle even more of an effort to "suspend disbelief". I await enlightenment. /\/\ark -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Dec 6 16:11:28 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id PAA13755; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 15:48:31 +1300 Received: from letterbox.cs.auckland.ac.nz (kakapo.cs.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.34.10]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id PAA13752 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 15:48:29 +1300 Received: from andrewlpc (andrew-l-pc.cs.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.34.146]) by letterbox.cs.auckland.ac.nz (8.8.6/8.8.6/cs-master) with SMTP id PAA14181 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 15:48:08 +1300 (NZDT) (sender andrew-l@cs.auckland.ac.nz) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991206155050.00a1d100@staffpop.cs.auckland.ac.nz> X-Sender: andrew-l@staffpop.cs.auckland.ac.nz X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 06 Dec 1999 15:50:50 +1300 Subject: RE: Mercenary Guild Members [was The Guild - do we need it] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: Andrew Luxton To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz At 15:18 6/12/1999 +1300, you wrote: >On the other hand payment is a good way to encourage people to do things. >The simple fact is that either cash or orders are the two main incentives >for people to do stuff. Curiosity is a personal thing and while it is a cool >thing to have on an adventure it is up to the party as a group to either >have or not have on an adventure. If you want to investigate the ruins then >you need to convince the rest of the party. This would be the case >regardless of the adventure. How many fantasy novels start with the Heroes being hired for a big bunch of loot? Don't you think it would taint the story if they were hired. If you are working for personal reward, then the appearance is that you don't care... Why not talk to a character and get them to announce the mission "I have discovered the existence of some old ruins and I want to see what's there... who's with me?" I am sure that many games could be easily motivated without resorting to offering a reward. It is a small thing... really, people will play on games regardless of how they are announced because we all want to play. We also know that the rewards will be equivalent regardless of what is offered because of the way that players loot and pillage all that they come across (which is another thing that should be thought about). However, I think the motivations behind the initial hook are what sets up the atmosphere for the game, and if it starts on a greedy money-based foundation, then it is much more likely to continue on a similar vein. Ciao, Andrew ------------------------------------------------------------------- Andrew Luxton andrew-l@cs.auckland.ac.nz Department of Computer Science http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz University of Auckland Phone: +64 9 3737 599 x5654 Private Bag 92019, Auckland, NZ Fax: +64 9 3737 453 -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Dec 6 16:34:24 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id QAA13913; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 16:21:34 +1300 Received: from hermes.telebusiness.co.nz ([203.97.136.3] (may be forged)) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id QAA13910 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 16:21:16 +1300 Received: by hermes.telebusiness.co.nz with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id <4P1SXDRK>; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 16:21:08 +1300 Message-ID: <51F30BB9AB60D311B4130020AFF7E3230B19FE@hermes.telebusiness.co.nz> Subject: RE: Mercenary Guild Members [was The Guild - do we need it] Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 16:21:07 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" From: Terry Spencer To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > > I believe very few players will do ANY mission purely for the > fiscal reward. > And it is current guild practice (i.e., a game mechanism) > that the guild > will NOT organise missions which clearly have an immoral mission. > I've seen a variety of missions advertised openly motiviated by assassination or conquest. The guild rarely comments on the morality of action of individuals of parties unless someone complains. Look at the calibre of some of the guild members - there are some that can only be classed as immoral scum, yet we allow them membership. The guild, if not by strict definition, acts as a mercenary guild (but not that well organised :). -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Dec 6 16:36:12 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id QAA13929; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 16:26:21 +1300 Received: from peace.com (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id QAA13926 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 16:26:20 +1300 Message-ID: <384B2C66.7E68A858@peace.com> Date: Mon, 06 Dec 1999 16:24:22 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: The Guild - do we need it? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Andrew Luxton wrote: > You are talking about the house rules which we > use when playing the game. The guild does not enforce them. The guild > acts as a game mechanic for GM's to use as a method of enforcing such house > rules. We can choose a wide variety of other mechanics to enforce the same > rules if we wish. So, OK... backing this discussion up a step, in order to effectively decide what shape and form our game mechanic has we need to agree what the "house" rules are. Andrew has mentioned two: Playing nice with the other children, and universal access to training. Personally I feel that both of these are desirable and that their removal will tend towards more obvious cliques... the first because without the "be nice" rule, characters and hence players are more likely to want to adventure with persons they already know and feel they can trust, and the second because unequal access may lead towards the "pet GM" issue with some groups unreasonably disadvantaged or privileged by their association with a GM willing to provide training resource. What other meta-rules do we have in this campaign? Which are desirable? Cheers, Martin -- _/_/ Peace Software New Zealand Ltd Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com _/ Martin Dickson Fax : +64-9-373-0401 Analyst Phone: +64-9-373-0400 -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Dec 6 16:37:47 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id QAA13945; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 16:31:29 +1300 Received: from mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (mailhost.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.1.4]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id QAA13942 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 16:31:22 +1300 Received: from sci4 (lbr-122-42.lbrsc.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.122.42]) by mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (8.9.2/8.9.2/8.9.2-ua) with SMTP id QAA00981 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 16:31:01 +1300 (NZDT) Subject: Money as a game mechanic Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 16:30:03 +1300 Message-ID: <000501bf3f9a$2eb153f0$2a7ad882@sci4> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 From: "Michael Parkinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Dear all, Further to the comment: "Clearly, sufficient pay is important for a character to be able to live or develop..." One of the biggest stuff-ups we have in the game is the game-mechanic that PC require exorbitant amounts of money to develop. Clearly the character needs money in order to live; but the costs of gaining spells, rituals, ranking skills, etc. requires the character to garner money on a scale that would maintain at least a village, if not a minor barony. One problem is that the "maximum reward" levels laid down, are transformed into indicators of the advised minimum monthly allocation (using a multiply of about 0.5 to 1.1, depending upon the GM). I *have* run adventures at a loss for the participants; but only a few, since I feel the pressure to match other games, and I don't see why the players' characters (& hence the player who is the ambition behind their PC) should be automatically punished for going on a game I GM. As a point of irony: actually it is the mercenary fighter, who is merely a hired sword & who has not gained professional skills (other than perhaps warrior) that has the least need of money. Don't blame the Seagate Adventurer's Guild for what seems like a mercenary attitude. It is the result of a Game Mechanic. Those of our PCs who maintain charities out of our own pockets *still* have to find large sums of personal money if they wish to purchase spells or continue to rank professional skills. regards, Michael. Disclaimer: I admit twice have gone way over the monthly max for my party -- once because of the sudden ten-fold increase in the cost of black-mage amulets; once because I stuffed up badly & underestimated the party's power. -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Dec 6 16:54:02 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id QAA13990; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 16:35:27 +1300 Received: from peace.com (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id QAA13987 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 16:35:25 +1300 Message-ID: <384B2EC2.E9DFB166@peace.com> Date: Mon, 06 Dec 1999 16:34:27 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Mercenary Guild Members [was The Guild - do we need it] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Michael Woodhams To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Andrew Luxton wrote: > At 15:18 6/12/1999 +1300, you wrote: > >On the other hand payment is a good way to encourage people to do things. > >The simple fact is that either cash or orders are the two main incentives > >for people to do stuff. Curiosity is a personal thing and while it is a cool > >thing to have on an adventure it is up to the party as a group to either > >have or not have on an adventure. If you want to investigate the ruins then > >you need to convince the rest of the party. This would be the case > >regardless of the adventure. > > How many fantasy novels start with the Heroes being hired for a big bunch > of loot? Don't you think it would taint the story if they were hired. If > you are working for personal reward, then the appearance is that you don't > care... Comparison to fantasy novels is not a good way to make your point. RPGs that try to imitate novels are usually bad games. Novels that imitate RPGs are usually bad novels (and there are a few of them.) The two media have different constraints. > Why not talk to a character and get them to announce the mission "I have > discovered the existence of some old ruins and I want to see what's > there... who's with me?" I am sure that many games could be easily > motivated without resorting to offering a reward. I agree with this point, however. I can think of four main ways to start an adventure: (1) Hiring - the current norm. (2) Opportunity - as in the example above. (3) Pro publico bono - an appeal to morals. (4) Force of circumstances - e.g. your child is kidnapped and must be rescued. You swore when courting a princess that whoever won her, you would suport her choice by force of arms. Your tribe will be destroyed unless you can find some fire to bring back to them. The Dark Lord will enslave the world unless you throw some jewellery in a vulcano. You are stuck in some strange place and have to get home. I'm sure there are other possibilities I haven't thought of. (4) is a bit difficult to arrange in this case - you need an excuse that forces some disparate group of guild members, but not others, and such that those forced happen to be the characters signed up for your game. (With some organization and pre-booking, it can be done. Also, not all the characters need be forced - a few can, and they can recruit helpers.) Anyway, I encourage GMs to try options 2 to 4 more often. > It is a small thing... really, people will play on games regardless of how > they are announced because we all want to play. We also know that the > rewards will be equivalent regardless of what is offered because of the way > that players loot and pillage all that they come across (which is another > thing that should be thought about). However, I think the motivations > behind the initial hook are what sets up the atmosphere for the game, and > if it starts on a greedy money-based foundation, then it is much more > likely to continue on a similar vein. On the original topic: My main suspension of disbelief problem is "Why are all these people in the same organization?" Some PCs are quite antithical, and would be more likely to burn each other at the stake than adventure together. Imperfect as it is, the guild is a good game mechanic for sending out random assortments of adventurers on adventures, and I don't see a better one. Michael. -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Dec 6 17:03:52 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id QAA14180; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 16:53:55 +1300 Received: from mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (mailhost.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.1.4]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id QAA14177 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 16:53:52 +1300 Received: from sci4 (lbr-122-42.lbrsc.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.122.42]) by mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (8.9.2/8.9.2/8.9.2-ua) with SMTP id QAA04110 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 16:53:21 +1300 (NZDT) Subject: RE: Mercenary Guild Members [was The Guild - do we need it] Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 16:52:23 +1300 Message-ID: <000701bf3f9d$4dcb07b0$2a7ad882@sci4> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 From: "Michael Parkinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Dear all, > Why not talk to a character and get them to announce the mission "I have > discovered the existence of some old ruins and I want to see what's > there... who's with me?" I am sure that many games could be easily > motivated without resorting to offering a reward. This is a good point; & touches on a habit that irritates me. I thought treasure maps were considered valuable; yet when was the last time a punter turned up at the guild wanting to sell or auction one. It appears, from the way most adventures are organised [aside: no personal criticisms to the GMs concerned; they're only following the customs and external dictates of our game-system], that we PCs are only interested if he guarantees us money up-front?? > It is a small thing... really, people will play on games regardless of how > they are announced because we all want to play. We also know that the > rewards will be equivalent regardless of what is offered because > of the way that players loot and pillage all that they come across (which is another > thing that should be thought about). Ah! So the hiring Baron pays us 5,000 each NOT because we're professional mercenaries, but because we're *worse* than that: thugs who run some sort of protection racket. > However, I think the motivations > behind the initial hook are what sets up the atmosphere for the game, and > if it starts on a greedy money-based foundation, then it is much more > likely to continue on a similar vein. Agreed. (with the emphasis on Greed). Saving a helpless individual or village is not an act of heroism if one demands most or all of their worldly goods; or if one makes it know that one doesn't do anything for less than one, three, seven thou a week, or whatever. Michael (yet again). -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Dec 6 17:17:50 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id RAA14293; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 17:05:29 +1300 Received: from peace.com (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id RAA14289 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 17:05:22 +1300 Message-ID: <384B357E.61D456A1@peace.com> Date: Mon, 06 Dec 1999 17:03:10 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Mercenary Guild Members [was The Guild - do we need it] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Andrew Luxton wrote: > How many fantasy novels start with the Heroes being hired for a big bunch > of loot? Don't you think it would taint the story if they were hired. If > you are working for personal reward, then the appearance is that you don't > care... Much of the fantasy (and action/adventure) genre consists of adventures happening to people. The heroes often don't get hired at all... there they are minding their own business... being the castle orphan or having supper in their hobbit-hole, or happening to be called "Sarah Connor" and an adventure drops on them out of the blue. This works well for the "epic", that is to say, an adventue that spells the high (err... or low) point in that character's life -- Bilbo's big adventure happens in his 50's and he shuffles off to Rivendell when eleventy-one and nothing much happens for the intervening 50-plus years. Having an adventure drop on you every 3 months for a few years will do more than strain suspension of disbelief. The whole campaign structure of quarterly meetings, and the expectation that adventures last a maximum of 12 weeks gives a very precise episodic pulse to the game and works well with the concept of the Guild as a professional organisation/mercenary company type body, and without that pulse it may be hard to co-ordinate the transportability of scores of PCs across multiple games. Cheers, Martin -- _/_/ Peace Software New Zealand Ltd Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com _/ Martin Dickson Fax : +64-9-373-0401 Analyst Phone: +64-9-373-0400 -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Dec 6 17:33:16 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id RAA14349; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 17:21:26 +1300 Received: from enterprise.iconz.co.nz (enterprise.iconz.co.nz [210.48.22.40]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id RAA14346 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 17:21:24 +1300 Received: (qmail 22387 invoked from network); 6 Dec 1999 04:21:45 -0000 Received: from mandos.internet.co.nz (HELO mandos) (210.48.42.117) by enterprise.iconz.co.nz with SMTP; 6 Dec 1999 04:21:45 -0000 Subject: RE: Mercenary Guild Members [was The Guild - do we need it] Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 17:27:09 +1300 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 From: "Mandos D Shadowspawn Esq" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > How many fantasy novels start with the Heroes being hired for a big bunch > of loot? Don't you think it would taint the story if they were hired. If > you are working for personal reward, then the appearance is that you don't > care... > > Why not talk to a character and get them to announce the mission "I have > discovered the existence of some old ruins and I want to see what's > there... who's with me?" I am sure that many games could be easily > motivated without resorting to offering a reward. How many novels involve someone actually going exploring for a living. The guild characters like it or not do actually spend most of their lives adventuring, it is in a way their job. Some people work in Inns other clean shoes and some join the guild and earn a living annoying people and stealing their boots. A lot of RPG's can be the simple this happens to you, your lives are changed story ends. But the simple fact is regardless of what shape the guild is in character have to eat, live and have ready cash like everyone else. Yes they earn enough that they can work for intrest alone but they will always need to retern to the cash to survive. An adventurer would need a good cash retern on at least 33% of thier adventures to really be able to keep up a reasonable standard of living. If every mission was charity or interest, I would find it difficult to suspend my disbelief that people would continue doing this. Mandos /s -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Dec 6 18:32:41 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id SAA16124; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 18:30:38 +1300 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id SAA16120 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 18:30:37 +1300 Received: from dworkin (p157-tnt1.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.111.157]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id SAA29764 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 18:30:04 +1300 Message-ID: <008a01bf3fac$78d038e0$4301a8c0@dworkin.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: The Guild - do we need it? Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 18:40:17 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 From: "Dworkin" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz >What other meta-rules do we have in this campaign? Which are desirable? > The other main meta-rule is that a PC is technically invulnerable once an adventure is over. This has led to the assumption (and joke by those who know better) that one is "safe" once back in the guild. This prevents circumstances like this... Player hands over character sheet to GM. GM - "Where does your character live" Player - "In a low rent dive by the docks" GM - "Oh dear, awfully sorry but that was wiped out in the middle of last session when (insert calamity here) destroyed it. You're dead." Player - "(censored for the public good)" Admittedly, this is at the ridulculous end of the spectrum. The rule technically still exists. This however doesn't stop kidnappings, random beatings, eating of small children and so on as long as the player agrees. Such things do occur as starters to an adventure. As to the other meta-rules 1) Play nice children - Oddly enough in many other games with players who have a mental age over five this doesn't occur. Somehow players don't kill or steal from one another (well, not steal much) because all the players tend to be friends. In all the cases where a PC has been left for dead it is because the character was such an arogant twerp that when the end came, no-one cared. Also in DQ the rule is quite fluid. If a character insults you, no-one minds much if you slug him but disintergration is a no-no. Duels occasionally occur (the one between Scorpian and PJ being a personal favorite). Party leaders get a lot of leeway. This is regards to the 'no fighting rule', the others are a lot stronger. Actually DQ is one of the most violent in PC interactions compared to things like Cyberpunk, Vampire and ADD. 2) Standard training - It was inferred that you trained at the guild. As Andrew pointed out this is a little dull. However having a meta-rule rather than decide on a quarterly basis belongs to the KISS system of gaming and gets my approval. Players should, within reason be allowed to make up stories about how they got bigger and meaner. This is all in the mind anyway. Other thoughts. If the Guild becomes a loose coalition of adventurers who meet, and find employers then the "play nice" rule will still apply. Even the most dim member will realise that annoying the rest of the guild is a "fatal error". The Guild is an organisation of mercenaries. I don't care what a dictionary has to say. Characters are out for money or power. Some dress this up in a bow and ribbons. Call yourself an asassian (we kill people for money), adventurer, swashbuckler, crusader, hero or whatever. That's why it's a roleplaying game, you are allowed to design your own badge. William -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Dec 6 23:26:14 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id XAA01548; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 23:14:05 +1300 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id XAA01545 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 23:14:03 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p52-tnt8.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.138.52]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id XAA08397 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 23:13:45 +1300 Subject: Re: The Guild - do we need it? Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 23:12:50 +1300 Message-ID: <01bf3fd2$73af17c0$87c36dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz We need something. I don't know that we need the current set up for a Guild, but we do need to have a convenient rationalisation to hang having games off of. Character traits. The Guild, at present, promotes avarice as a lifestyle amongst players. Not that there is anything wrong with avarice as a character trait. It provides a player with an endless rationalisation to adventure. I mean, it's not enough by itself, but if you include it with things like boundless curiosity, an hyperactive tongue and a blatant disregard for their own personal safety, then it's the sort of thing that will drag a character from adventure to adventure, often, severely testing the resourcefulness of the player. What's bad is when it becomes a default character trait. Remarkably enough, one finds it going hand in glove of the other default character trait, which is cowardice. This parades as 'being intelligent', a contention I find laughable in a roleplaying game. Take Kilroy, for example. This character is designed to have a certain....naive appreciation of the world, and is regularly shocked when the seamier side of human nature is revealed to him. Much of the character's time is spent in 'healing' the assaults the real world makes upon this happy construct that looks a bit like the mundane world that you and I are a part of. Dean, as a player, has to work very hard to keep his character alive and viable, with this rationalisation at work. With the best will in the world, one can't really describe Kilroy as clever. He has regularly been successful, so either he has been lucky, or his view of the world is a lot more accurate than the rest of us expect. A character doesn't have to be clever. It's really good if a player is, but it's not the most important thing in the game. The most important thing is that the player enjoyed the character, in a way that didn't reduce anyone else's enjoyment. And you can't enjoy a character if you bring nothing interesting to the game. Default character traits like this are pretty uninteresting, whether you call them mercenary or cowardice or astuteness or Bob. Consequences. As far as controlling players, the Guild doesn't do that at all. On occasion, the Guild has done something to a player, killing a character permanently, in one case. This happened because the DM involved refused to make a value judgment. It need not have gone to that level, and, indeed, it should not have gone to that level. It was, however, the only recourse that remained. Most DMs take responsibility for their game, and will visit such consequences as they feel are warranted on the guilty party. The only time an extra-campaign ruling might be made is when the situation calls for one, and the DM recuses himself from making a decision. Whether or not the Guild existed, a DM or group of DMs who are held in high regard might easily serve this purpose. Player vs player behaviour. In general, the Guild, with it's episodic adventures and the changeable roster of characters, mean that players have less sense of responsibility for the community they play in. Routinely, players will deny other players an opportunity to play. For example, a player is slept, unconscious, paralysed, transformed, Petit Mort-ed, dead, or abducted. The remaining players take weeks to commit to a course of action that will hopefully lead to a useful resolution. In the meantime, the player who is out of the picture is unable to play. What other social event do you know that does not condemn that kind of exclusion? In much the same way, stealing, killing and otherwise doofing over other players is something you see more commonly in roleplaying games, than you do in, say, a team of sportsmen and women. In fact, team members tend to support their team. Roleplayers support themselves, with no regard to the idea that they are part of a community. And, yet, the idea of adventure gaming is that the PCs are in a life-threatening situation, depending on the willingness and committment of the other PCs, just to stay alive. Yet, any sense of party cohesion is often stymied by players who decline to give aid that they easily can offer. The Guild does punish players who obviously bring harm to other players, and the rationalisation is that it is the Guild protecting its income base. However, it has had little impact on engendering a sense of corps d'esprit. Players that aren't committed to the welfare of the rest of the party can get away with divisiveness by not doing anything in particular. It's hard to see how the Guild might be able to prosecute against such inaction. On the other hand, perhaps a DM who didn't have to work within a 'bureaucratic' construct would be able to do more about such behaviour. Or perhaps not. Personally, I don't think you can legislate for a different kind of human behaviour. I don't believe that the Guild as a structure, has not had any major effect on the behaviour of it's members. I don't think getting rid of the current Guild structure will have any major effect, either. I think that would be have to be addressed in an altoghether other wise. Rescue missions and the like. I don't believe Andrew Luxton is suggesting we do away with the Guild totally. I believe his contention is that it need not be the land of invulnerability, etc, etc, etc, that it is at the moment. It could still exist as a co-ordinating body, one that recieved reports and informed available members of the need of some particular kind of action. The archives could still be maintained, although it would be easier to accept the current sorry state of affairs they're in, if it was a looser, more informal (Hell, why not just say it) drunken pig's breakfast of inneficiency, where it wasn't simply inadequate. And, in the hands of such a misbegotten gang of rascals, the Vault becomes an object of barely restrained terror. I don't see a need for the Guild that we have. I prefer to see a guild that has less political clout, provides less to it's membership, drains heaps from their pockets, and hasn't got the ability to frighten a small boy with a bent stick. It provides for more DM latitude, and allows for easier suspension of disbelief. As it stands, the players adventure with the Guild in their pocket. I have seen players (admittedly as a bluff) threaten NPCs with endless waves of Guild funded rescue missions. I don't believe that the Guild was ever designed as anything other than a rationalisation that allowed players to come together and find adventures. It has grown, like it or not, into a powerful political structure, and can provide significant resources to another political entity. As it stands, we have seen a ploy by which the Duke hopes to attract people with a particular range of abilities that he is almost certainly not going to have in the numbers that the Guild can field. Jim. -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers --