From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Dec 7 08:02:31 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id HAA02974; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 07:47:07 +1300 Received: from enterprise.iconz.co.nz (enterprise.iconz.co.nz [210.48.22.40]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id HAA02971 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 07:47:05 +1300 Received: (qmail 13627 invoked from network); 6 Dec 1999 18:47:20 -0000 Received: from e0.firewall.ak.iconz.net.nz (HELO Escher) (202.14.100.208) by enterprise.iconz.co.nz with SMTP; 6 Dec 1999 18:47:20 -0000 Subject: RE: The Guild - do we need it? Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 07:45:03 +1300 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2918.2701 From: "Mandos Mitchinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > The rationale which we > have chosen (current guild structure) is one which (among other things) > strains the suspension of disbelief, encourages mercenary behaviour, and > discourages allegiances elsewhere. >(1). I find it constantly difficult to suspend disbelief where the > Guild is concerned. It just doesn't hold together as part of the > world. The best I can do is sigh, say "yep.. game mechanics huh" > and try to ignore it. Why doesn't the guild use it's resources to > help it's members? Why does it cost so much to learn spells... > game mechanics. Fine. I do think however, that there are ways to > rationalise these effects which require less effort to suspend > disbelief." But if you think about some of the ways the guild works it is easy to see why things ae done as they are. Important concepts. The guild is not so much a "Guild" as a Union. This means the guild is there to provide you with assistance when you need it and helps get you discounts and access to things you need but is not there to actually look after you as such. They are there if you need help but will not proactivly force you to do things. It is not your employer. This means spells will cost money. All the guild is doing is assisting you by getting you in touch with the appropriate person to learn the spells from. A person I note who no longer adventures so teaching his spells are probably that chaps main source of income. Regarding resources, why should it help you? If you want the resources the guild will help get you in touch with the people who can provide you with those resources and will even help you out with cash on occasion but "The guild" itself probably only has resources of cash and information. Any magical stuff will be the property of a member even if thet is an NPC. My vision of the guild fits what it currently is with no real disbelief problems, how do you see the guild? Mandos /s -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Dec 7 09:10:45 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id IAA03210; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 08:57:14 +1300 Received: from peace.com (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id IAA03207 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 08:57:13 +1300 Message-ID: <384C14DD.A12B78FB@peace.com> Date: Tue, 07 Dec 1999 08:56:13 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: The Guild - do we need it? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Michael Woodhams To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Dworkin wrote: > If the Guild becomes a loose coalition of adventurers who meet, and find > employers then the "play nice" rule will still apply. Even the most dim > member will realise that annoying the rest of the guild is a "fatal error". A problem with this is that it turns game sanctions (not associating with a character) into real world sanctions (not associating with a player): A player really enjoys playing a slimeball character who is resourceful and whose disregard of property laws extends to other party members. You know this, and find they have signed onto the same game as you. Now you either set yourself up as a victim, or tell the GM your character won't adventure with their character. This then presents the GM with a dilema where they have great difficulty not offending someone (and probably preventing a player from playing at all for three months.) Michael W. -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Dec 7 09:25:48 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id JAA03253; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 09:10:13 +1300 Received: from kcbbs.gen.nz (kcbbs.gen.nz [202.14.102.1]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id JAA03250 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 09:10:12 +1300 Received: from bear (as5200-04.kcbbs.gen.nz [202.14.102.34]) by kcbbs.gen.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA17542; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 09:03:14 +1300 (NZDT) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991207091024.0079ad00@kcbbs.gen.nz> X-Sender: salient@kcbbs.gen.nz X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 07 Dec 1999 09:10:24 +1300 Subject: Re: The Guild - do we need it? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: Brent Jackson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz At 23:12 6/12/99 +1300, Jim Arona wrote: >I don't believe that the >Guild was ever designed as anything other than a rationalisation that >allowed players to come together and find adventures. It has grown, like it >or not, into a powerful political structure, and can provide significant >resources to another political entity. The Guild was designed primarily as a GM tool for policing characters to reduce the incidence of *players* destroying the enjoyment of other players by such things as theft, rape and murder (which have all occurred between characters in this campaign). Incidents such as these often cause players to leave the campaign. Brent. -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Dec 7 11:11:47 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id LAA03665; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 11:06:52 +1300 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id LAA03662 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 11:06:50 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p19-tnt2.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.245.19]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id LAA02073 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 11:06:16 +1300 Subject: Re: The Guild - do we need it? Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 11:05:00 +1300 Message-ID: <01bf4035$f094ef40$13f56dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Brent Jackson wrote: >The Guild was designed primarily as a GM tool for policing characters to >reduce the incidence of *players* destroying the enjoyment of other players >by such things as theft, rape and murder (which have all occurred between >characters in this campaign). Incidents such as these often cause players >to leave the campaign. This doesn't change the fact that it has become a powerful political entity within the game. I'm sure this was never intended. Jim -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Dec 7 19:10:43 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id SAA05022; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 18:59:34 +1300 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id SAA05019 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 18:59:32 +1300 Received: from dworkin (p48-tnt8.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.138.48]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id SAA09234 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 18:58:43 +1300 Message-ID: <000201bf4079$a4c72bc0$4301a8c0@dworkin.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Problem characters (or is that children) Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 19:08:30 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 From: "Dworkin" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz >Dworkin wrote: > >> If the Guild becomes a loose coalition of adventurers who meet, and find >> employers then the "play nice" rule will still apply. Even the most dim >> member will realise that annoying the rest of the guild is a "fatal error". > >A problem with this is that it turns game sanctions (not associating with a >character) into real world sanctions (not associating with a player): A player >really enjoys playing a slimeball character who is resourceful and whose >disregard of property laws extends to other party members. You know this, and >find they have signed onto the same game as you. Now you either set yourself up >as a victim, or tell the GM your character won't adventure with their >character. This then presents the GM with a dilema where they have great >difficulty not offending someone (and probably preventing a player from playing >at all for three months.) > >Michael W. > You have confused me. At the moment this is what happens. You don't have to adventure with slimeballs or worse, the lethaly stupid. You can tell a GM "No, sorry but x is on your game." You can leave the game if you truly feel that a particular character so repulses yours that there is no way they would be in the same party. It's a free country we live in not a police state and even in those gamers seldom occupy positions of power. As for your example a resourceful character is a boon to adventure with and there is no requirement to 'set yourself up as a victim'. If you know there's going to be some larceny set someone else up, stick a poison trap on you (one's that inflict embarrassing rashes or are alchemical superglue get the best laughs all round). Catch the guy in the act and beat the crap out of him (you tell the GM, "I inflict pain, not damage. I inlict lots of pain"). Be creative and not a victim and surely life will be more enjoyable. William -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Dec 7 21:58:12 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id VAA05432; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 21:50:35 +1300 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id VAA05429 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 21:50:33 +1300 Received: from [206.18.98.35] (p35-max21.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.98.35]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id VAA04032 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 21:49:41 +1300 Message-Id: <199912070849.VAA04032@smtp1.ihug.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 21:53:21 +1300 Subject: Re: Good And Evil. From: flamis@pop.ihug.co.nz (Jacqui Smith) To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > If you want to see players squirm, introduce a pederast into your >game...I had a player do it once, and it gave me the creeps, for a long time. You want the creeps... I spent several sessions recently in a Millenium's End scenario, playing one of a team of female security agents, tracking down a serial killer with a penchant for the consumption of human flesh. Now, while I had to admit to being severely tempted by the idea of translating the whole messy business into a DQ adventure, that sort of psychopath does not seem to exist on Alusia. Jacqui -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Dec 7 22:00:16 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id VAA05424; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 21:50:16 +1300 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id VAA05421 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 21:50:14 +1300 Received: from [206.18.98.35] (p35-max21.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.98.35]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id VAA03988 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 21:49:21 +1300 Message-Id: <199912070849.VAA03988@smtp1.ihug.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 21:53:01 +1300 Subject: Re: Sub plots From: flamis@pop.ihug.co.nz (Jacqui Smith) To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > A subplot comments on the main storyline. It is connected to the >storyline, and creates resonance within the story, by either echoing the >theme, or by counterpointing it. > In a roleplaying game, you don't have the luxury, because to have a story >that runs at counterpoint, or even in parallel, you have to have characters >involved in that subplot. These characters must be pursuing their own story >demands, which means that the players not directly involved in the subplot >can't know everything that's going on. Far be it from me to contradict you - but I have found that sub-plots seem to be a happening thing in one game I am involved in, perhaps because it's a game with only two PCs, and a very large cast of NPCs... Or perhaps because it's a GURPS game with very rounded characters... Or perhaps because the genre is hard SF with more than a touch of conspiracy. Sub-plots seem not to happen much in DQ, however. Jacqui -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Dec 7 22:02:45 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id VAA05440; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 21:51:26 +1300 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id VAA05437 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 21:51:25 +1300 Received: from [206.18.98.35] (p35-max21.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.98.35]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id VAA04148 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 21:50:32 +1300 Message-Id: <199912070850.VAA04148@smtp1.ihug.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 21:54:12 +1300 Subject: Re: Hey You From: flamis@pop.ihug.co.nz (Jacqui Smith) To: dq-pub@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq-pub@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq-pub@dq.sf.org.nz >>"Yes, I'm a noble. But in this lifetime I'm just a lesser nob, just a Lady, >>and I wasn't born noble. I figure it mostly works by being polite to them >>as has higher rank and rude to those as is lower. Sorta like hens in a hen >>coop." >> >>"As for resisting the urge to decapitate them... I've cremated a few nobs >>in my time, most of them real bad people, and not in a negotiating type >>situation. More in a combat type scenario." >> > > >If we keep this whole bird metaphor then I'm afraid I am of the raptor >family and expecting me to live peacefully in a hen coop is like getting >Stark to coordinate your battle strategy. This is not helping you know. "Actually I kinda think most adventurers have a bit of raptor in them. 'Cept Phaeton I guess. He strikes me as more the innocent white dove type. But don't underestimate the chooks. Some of them have a nasty bite... "Hey, did you hear how we managed to do over not one, but two Noble Drow houses last adventure, and got away with the contents of both their treasuries? All in the good cause of preventing the black bastards from finishing building this monster device that was going let them take over a large chunk of the surface of Greyhawk. Funny thing was, we didn't actually *kill* that many of them. They had some seriously nasty household defences, so we worked hard on *not* killing them, 'cos that would set off the alarm. "Nobs is like that... they tend to defend themselves pretty damn well. And usually not in obvious ways." Flamis -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Dec 7 22:27:02 1999 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id WAA05568; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 22:22:44 +1300 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id WAA05565 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 22:22:43 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p105-tnt5.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.194.105]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id WAA08588 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 22:21:50 +1300 Subject: Re: Sub plots Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 22:20:30 +1300 Message-ID: <01bf4094$4e96b3e0$69c26dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to -request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Jacqui Smith wrote: > >Far be it from me to contradict you - but I have found that sub-plots seem >to be a happening thing in one game I am involved in, perhaps because it's >a game with only two PCs, and a very large cast of NPCs... Or perhaps >because it's a GURPS game with very rounded characters... Or perhaps >because the genre is hard SF with more than a touch of conspiracy. > >Sub-plots seem not to happen much in DQ, however. > They don't happen in roleplaying games, except by accident, full stop. It really wouldn't matter what game system you were using...It's to do with telling a subordinate story that enriches the main story. If all of the player characters are involved, then it isn't a subplot, it's a complication in the main story line. If only some of the players characters are involved, then it might be a subplot, if all of the members of both story lines are aware that there is a subplot. You cannot tell a story to a wardrobe, you must have an audience. Therefore, players who are not involved in the action of either the main story or the subplot must still be there. This is unavoidable. Otherwise, the faculty of comment is lost.It also means that they don't get to do anything except watch. It seems to me a pretty unnatural cruelty to afflict a player with, just to indulge a sense of the artistic avant garde. You might, I suppose, have done something like that. I doubt you own that degree of callousness. And,finally, conspiracies, do not define subplots. A plot can be rich, defined and complex, without once resorting to a subplot. The reason I went into the extensive and technical explanation of what a subplot is, is to defuse exactly this sort of confusion. Precisely, then, a subplot is a subordinate story that has some relationship with the main story. It runs thematically counter to the vein of the main story, or it echoes it at another level. It is not about complexity of plot, intrigues or what have you. It is a storytelling techniques that exists in most forms of that media, but sadly, doesn't seem to be doable in roleplaying, at the moment. Jim. -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers --