From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jan 12 01:13:37 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id BAA32277; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 01:02:34 +1300 Message-Id: <200001111202.BAA32277@mail.sf.org.nz> Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id BAA32273 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 01:02:19 +1300 Received: from phaeton (p77-tnt5.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.194.77]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id AAA14647 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 00:55:54 +1300 Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 17:42:24 +1300 Subject: Re: Saving villagers From: Keith Smith To: dq-pub@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq-pub@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq-pub@dq.sf.org.nz At 09:11 11-01-2000 +1300, you wrote: >At 11:16 PM 1/10/00 +1300, you wrote: >>>who cares there just useless villagers let them feed the undead >>> >>>kishwa >> >>"Most of the members of this Guild were villagers and townfolk once, as you >>would realise if you ever bothered to ask," comments a tall elf in blue >>armour. "And those who were not seem to have a rather better grasp of the >>meaning of noblese oblige than you do." >> >>Starflower > >I quite agree. If there is one thing I simply can't bear it's seeing >helpless villagers running to escape the clutches of the undernourished undead. "Unusually hungry these undead, aren't they? For animates which have no need of meat or drink?" Starflower (dripping sarcasm in Kishwa's direction) -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jan 12 09:13:37 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id IAA02281; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 08:59:05 +1300 Message-Id: <200001111959.IAA02281@mail.sf.org.nz> Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id IAA02277 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 08:58:48 +1300 Received: from phaeton (p77-tnt5.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.194.77]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id IAA32082 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 08:52:12 +1300 Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 08:52:57 +1300 Subject: Re: Mind 1.4 - text version From: Keith Smith To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz >There seemed to be a common mis-conception that the old version of the >talent would allow a chance of a warning in that latter situation, but it >didn't. The new version seems to. What old version? The version in the rulebook has no explanation of the talent beyond the bonus to sense ambush. However, there is a description of play in the introduction to the third edition of DQ which clearly indicates that the talent was intended to do rather more than that - considerably more than most GMs would allow in fact. The "new" version was drawn from a consensus of GMs and players held some time ago as to how they normally play this talent. There was a fair degree of inconsistency, and the resulting writeup is a compromise. And like all compromises, it cannot be expected to please everyone! Jacqui -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jan 12 09:14:06 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id JAA02386; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 09:11:56 +1300 Message-Id: <200001112011.JAA02386@mail.sf.org.nz> Received: from enterprise.iconz.co.nz (enterprise.iconz.co.nz [210.48.22.40]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id JAA02381 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 09:11:46 +1300 Received: (qmail 18233 invoked from network); 11 Jan 2000 20:06:23 -0000 Received: from mandos.internet.co.nz (HELO mandos) (210.48.42.117) by enterprise.iconz.co.nz with SMTP; 11 Jan 2000 20:06:23 -0000 Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 09:13:07 +1300 Subject: Sence Danger. From: "Mandos D Shadowspawn Esq" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Active danger sense would indeed be an administrative pain. > Perhaps a very simple/low admin overhead version of this > talent could be developed. The general idea with sense > danger appears to be to give the Adept advance warning > of _immediate_ danger to thmeselves. Simply sensing "is this > area/person/thing theoretically dangerous" appears out > of keeping with the concept. I prefer this as a replacement. T3. Sense Danger Base Chance: PC + 3/rank Experience multiple: 300 Storage: Potion The Adept may sense the presence of a hazard to the Adept's life or wellbeing. Generally this may be interpreted as a "bad feeling" about a person or an object, or a sense of foreboding about a situation. The presence of an imminent threat is usually experienced as a tingling sensation in the spine, a sinking feeling in the gut, etc. This talent operates continuously and unconsciously. This "bad feeling" may be given as just a warning to the player or in the case of a pulse time situation a bonus of 1 pulse/5 full ranks is given to the mind mage to respond at the start of the pulse time encounter. Wording needs work :-) The benifits of this option are that the talent changes little from the way we play it out side of a pulse time combat situation. There are no annoying calculations, no need for the GM to worry about what ambush chances are and a lot less fuss alround. If a combat occours the mind mage gets to warn people and you get a specific amount of time to assist in preparing for whatever the danger is. I have been playing it for a while cos the old write up is a pain. Mandos /s -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jan 12 09:14:23 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id JAA02349; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 09:10:02 +1300 Message-Id: <200001112010.JAA02349@mail.sf.org.nz> Received: from mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (mailhost.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.1.4]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id JAA02341 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 09:09:52 +1300 Received: from sci4 (lbr-122-42.lbrsc.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.122.42]) by mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (8.9.2/8.9.2/8.9.2-ua) with SMTP id JAA15155 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 09:03:16 +1300 (NZDT) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 09:01:20 +1300 Subject: Missile combat shot to hell From: "Michael Parkinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Dear all, Last night Brigetta/Jacqui again left behind her plaid tam-o'-shanter which, naturally enough, lead to thoughts of William Tell, popinjay-shoots, etc Basically our bow & other missile fire fails to take into account the all-important factor of how large the target is. Assume Archer Bill has a 95% chance of hitting a 6'x10' barn-door 50' away. Archer Bill has (95 - defence) % chance of hitting a human 50' away; and perhaps 14% chance of really hurting them. What's the same archer's chance of hitting a parrot perched 50' away? -- the same [with minor variations depending on the comparative defence of the two] DESPITE the fact that that the parrot is about a 35th the cross-section of the human who, in turn, is less than a fifth the cross-section of the barn-door. I understand than the new combat will have a -20 modifier for flying (Aside: is this instead of or in addition to the -5 for moving?). Even so, it will be ridiculously simple to shoot flying birds out of the sky, for example -- about half the chance of hitting a barn-door. By the way, if the barn-door is 50 *yards* away (instead of 50 feet), it is 11% the size & Archer bill has 83% chance of hitting it 95%. Responses? regards, Michael Michael Parkinson Mathematics & Statistics Subject Librarian Science Library, University of Auckland, Private Bag 92019, AUCKLAND, N.Z. Email: m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz Phone: (09) 3737 599 x 5858 Fax: (09) 3082 304 ------------------------------------------------- Mathematics may be the queen of the sciences ... but the queen who loses touch with her subjects may lose support and even be deprived of her realm. Mathematicians may like to rise into the clouds of abstract thought, but they should, and indeed they must, return to earth for nourishing food or else they die of starvation. They are on safer and saner ground when they stay close to nature. -- Morris Kline, Mathematics and the physical world, 1959. ====================================== -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jan 12 09:43:37 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id JAA02543; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 09:32:38 +1300 Message-Id: <200001112032.JAA02543@mail.sf.org.nz> Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id JAA02539 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 09:32:28 +1300 Received: from phaeton (p77-tnt5.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.194.77]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id JAA05019 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 09:25:52 +1300 Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 09:26:37 +1300 Subject: Re: Saving villagers From: Keith Smith To: dq-pub@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq-pub@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq-pub@dq.sf.org.nz >let the nobles worry avbout that, us commoners dont have to > >kharsis "So you a commoner, care not for the plight of other commoners?" replies Starflower. "I pity your family and the friends of your youth when the terror comes upon them, and warriors are not there to defend them." Starflower -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jan 12 10:58:37 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id KAA03080; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 10:57:46 +1300 Message-Id: <200001112157.KAA03080@mail.sf.org.nz> Received: from enterprise.iconz.co.nz (enterprise.iconz.co.nz [210.48.22.40]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id KAA03076 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 10:57:34 +1300 Received: (qmail 618 invoked from network); 11 Jan 2000 21:52:14 -0000 Received: from mandos.internet.co.nz (HELO mandos) (210.48.42.117) by enterprise.iconz.co.nz with SMTP; 11 Jan 2000 21:52:14 -0000 Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 10:58:58 +1300 Subject: RE: Saving villagers From: "Mandos D Shadowspawn Esq" To: dq-pub@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq-pub@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq-pub@dq.sf.org.nz > "So you a commoner, care not for the plight of other commoners?" replies > Starflower. "I pity your family and the friends of your youth when the > terror comes upon them, and warriors are not there to defend them." What is the proiblem with losing a few commoners? They are after all.....well...common. Dramus. -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jan 12 16:13:37 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id QAA04922; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 16:05:14 +1300 Message-Id: <200001120305.QAA04922@mail.sf.org.nz> Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id QAA04897 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 16:04:58 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p236-tnt8.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.138.236]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id PAA32737 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 15:58:09 +1300 Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 15:59:37 +1300 Subject: Re: Mind 1.4 - text version From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Jacqui wrote: > >The "new" version was drawn from a consensus of GMs and players held some >time ago as to how they normally play this talent. There was a fair degree >of inconsistency, and the resulting writeup is a compromise. And like all >compromises, it cannot be expected to please everyone! > Well, I don't think it addresses the game well, whether or not it was a compromise drawn from a variety of DMs. I know I do not play it this way. I won't DM it this way. I will continue to use it to provide a second resistance to surprise situations, where it affects the owner directly. I won't allow it to do all of these other things, and I really don't care what you write on a piece of paper, either. I'm not the only person who feels this way, either. Being able to resist surprise is extremely powerful. I have no objection to Mind Mages having it. I just see no reason for it to be any more effective. Jim -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jan 12 16:14:25 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id QAA04957; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 16:10:17 +1300 Message-Id: <200001120310.QAA04957@mail.sf.org.nz> Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id QAA04953 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 16:10:12 +1300 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p236-tnt8.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.138.236]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id QAA01121 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 16:03:24 +1300 Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 16:04:56 +1300 Subject: Re: Sence Danger. From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz George wrote: >T3. Sense Danger >Base Chance: PC + 3/rank >Experience multiple: 300 >Storage: Potion >The Adept may sense the presence of a hazard to the Adept's life or >wellbeing. Generally this may be interpreted as a "bad feeling" about a >person or an object, or a sense of foreboding about a situation. The >presence of an imminent threat is usually experienced as a tingling >sensation in the spine, a sinking feeling in the gut, etc. This talent >operates continuously and unconsciously. This "bad feeling" may be >given as just a warning to the player or in the case of a pulse >time situation a bonus of 1 pulse/5 full ranks is given to the mind >mage to respond at the start of the pulse time encounter. > >Wording needs work :-) The benifits of this option are that the talent >changes little from the way we play it out side of a pulse time combat >situation. There are no annoying calculations, no need for the GM to worry >about what ambush chances are and a lot less fuss alround. If a combat >occours the mind mage gets to warn people and you get a specific amount of >time to assist in preparing for whatever the danger is. I have been playing >it for a while cos the old write up is a pain. I agree with Martin. Allowing x amount of pulses warning is just a pain. It leads, as he says, to concerns over whether or not the Mind Mage would cause the danger they are reacting to, because it is achronistic. It's easier if it just provides a resistance against surprise. Jim. -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jan 12 16:43:37 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id QAA05085; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 16:29:48 +1300 Message-Id: <200001120329.QAA05085@mail.sf.org.nz> Received: from enterprise.iconz.co.nz (enterprise.iconz.co.nz [210.48.22.40]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id QAA05081 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 16:29:39 +1300 Received: (qmail 8464 invoked from network); 12 Jan 2000 03:24:11 -0000 Received: from mandos.internet.co.nz (HELO mandos) (210.48.42.117) by enterprise.iconz.co.nz with SMTP; 12 Jan 2000 03:24:11 -0000 Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 16:30:53 +1300 Subject: RE: Sence Danger. From: "Mandos D Shadowspawn Esq" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > I agree with Martin. Allowing x amount of pulses warning is > just a pain. > It leads, as he says, to concerns over whether or not the Mind Mage would > cause the danger they are reacting to, because it is achronistic. Im don't quite understand this bit. Could you explain? The way I see it is that if the players go onto the hex map and pulse time is started then the mind mage gets a pulse or two to prepare and warn. If there is no pulse time engagement then they just get a warning as a hunch that they work with as appropriate. I am not suggesting the mind mage gets x pulses warning and that warning puts them into pulse time. Mandos /s -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jan 12 17:58:37 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id RAA05571; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 17:53:32 +1300 Message-Id: <200001120453.RAA05571@mail.sf.org.nz> Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id RAA05567 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 17:52:59 +1300 Received: from dworkin (p461-tnt8.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.139.221]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id RAA11066 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 17:46:03 +1300 Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 17:58:39 +1300 Subject: Re: Mind 1.4 - text version From: "Dworkin" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz >> G5. Hypnotism >> Range: 15 feet + 15 / Rank > >[snip] > >> Effect:The Adept may lull an entity into a trance-like state in which they >> will be subject to suggestion. > >Rank 10... 165 feet range... > >"YOU ARE FEELING VERY SLEEPY!" > >This has never made much sense... especially considering the restriction that the >Adept must be able to communicate with the target. Presumaby the Adept must >actually speak to the target? > >Cheers, > Martin > The range component exists so that the spell may be cast on an unsuspecting target which when approached will be fully sugestable without anyone the wiser. ie cast at 165 ft, walk up and say "I am on urgent business" "You are on urgent business" "I must be allowed to enter" "You must be allowed to enter" after walking in you tell them to forget that exchange for the suggestion duration. William -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jan 12 23:28:38 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id XAA08082; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 23:19:21 +1300 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id XAA08078 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 23:18:59 +1300 Received: from ihug.co.nz (p434-tnt8.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.139.194]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id XAA14183 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 23:12:04 +1300 Message-ID: <387C53E9.BB4F41AE@ihug.co.nz> Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 23:14:01 +1300 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Saving villagers From: scott whitaker To: dq-pub@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq-pub@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq-pub@dq.sf.org.nz All the people of my burgh are taught how to fight and defend themselves from an early age. I understand nobles coddle their children until they are spoilt brats. Kharsis, Beastlord Keith Smith wrote: > >let the nobles worry avbout that, us commoners dont have to > > > >kharsis > > "So you a commoner, care not for the plight of other commoners?" replies > Starflower. "I pity your family and the friends of your youth when the > terror comes upon them, and warriors are not there to defend them." > > Starflower > > -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers -- -- see unsubscribe instructions in message headers --