From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Jun 15 12:00:49 2000
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for How about have other =
specialisations besides Rank 0 Skirmish available at 1,000ep and 2 =
weeks, but at any rank, not just at rank 10. Then you can specialise as =
much or as little as you like, and people who quest for aerial, or =
cavalry, or whatever would get bonuses, but the normal skills would =
work fine. You can shape your character by being Rank 0 but a =
theorectical "expert" in everything, or a practical =
adventurer, Rank 8, no specialities. example:
Mil Sci #2 has =
(standard) battlefield, and organises the army effectively, using the =
special abilities of each - light horse archers to break up infantry =
with harrying fire, heavy cav to smash infantry lines, or =
whatever. Mil Sci #3 has =
(wierd/quest) cavalry speciality. They do cunning things with light =
horse archers hidden in their heavy cavalry to disrupt mage attacks =
during charges, and to fan out ahead to discover boggy ground in =
charges, and more stuff if the GM cares. Andrew
-----Original Message-----
> Therefore, I proprose the =
following:
Except for allowing idiosyncratic Mil =
Sci characters, as above. I would suggest
> Get rid of the training =
requirements for unengaged initiative bonus and
I agree... a pointless rule, =
particularly in our multi GM "mix up the players
>This would resolve the problem perfectly, unfortunately the rules I
Players or characters?
If a player performs a magical action, we as GMs are in deep trouble...
>This would resolve the =
problem perfectly,=20
unfortunately the rules I Players or characters? =
If a player =
performs a magical=20
action, we as GMs are in deep trouble... The power rests with us, =
always. If the=20
players are taking magical actions, the world's in deep=20
trouble.... Scott Whitaker Scott Whitaker
Mil Sci #1 has no =
specialities. They can send in the army, and horses run fast so they =
stay on the flanks and as reinforcements.
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From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Jun 15 13:16:51 2000
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for
> Do away with the areas of =
specialisation, because they don't add usefully to
> the game.
that as an alternative, Skirimish =
i.e. Hex Grid stuff becomes Rank 0 generic,
Aerial could be removed, Naval's =
removal could be discussed further, and the
remaining specialisations spread out =
a bit -- development is not forced, but
some differences between Mil Sci's =
are retained.
> rallying, because hardly anyone =
plays it anyway (i.e. Your bonus only
> applies if you have either =
trained for 12 weeks-MilSci rank or you have
> adventured with the character =
before).
every 3 months" campaign.
Mil Sci #1 has=20
no specialities. They can send in the army, and horses run fast so they =
stay on=20
the flanks and as reinforcements.
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From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Jun 16 13:15:45 2000
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included
>below are from the current rulebook.
>We can fast track the fix at the next gods meeting, but until the next
>rulebook comes out my advice to GMs is to tell any players attempting to
>take advantage of this loophole to forget it.
>If they refuse to listen then imbed a cold iron weapon in them, the rules
>clearly state that this will disrupt any magical action :).
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From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Jun 26 20:29:37 2000
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included
>below are from=20
the current rulebook.
>We can fast=20
track the fix at the next gods meeting, but until the =
next=20
>rulebook comes out my advice =
to GMs is=20
to tell any players attempting to
>take advantage of this loophole to forget =
it.=20
>If they refuse to listen =
then imbed a=20
cold iron weapon in them, the rules
>clearly state that this will disrupt any magical =
action=20
:).
fire college.
There was no valid reason for dropping and it is
most dfinitely not an overly poerful spell. It
was the only spell that allowed a Fire Mage to use
magic to trap an opponent, albeit it was
relatively easy to break.
As fire is still in probation this correction of a
change made foe changes sake will be easy to make.
From:=20
scott whitaker
fire college.
There was no valid reason for =
dropping=20
and it is
most dfinitely not an overly poerful =
spell.Yes, it was overly powerful. It did several =
things at=20
once that made it far too powerful.
1) It was an half =
damage spell. It=20
had an EM of 200, and it was pretty hard to ignore in the face of =
low EM,=20
high effect spells.
2) It inflicted damage every =
pulse
3) It impeded movement, which is hard to rationalise with =
fire,=20
seeing as it's such an intangible element.
4) It was, quite simply, the best web in the game. It was =
the only=20
one that increased in damage capacity as you increased in Rank. All =
of the=20
others had a frozen damage capacity of 10. Why Web of Fire was so =
effective=20
a web is beyond me.
=20
It
was the only spell that allowed a Fire Mage to use
magic =
to trap=20
an opponent, albeit it was
relatively easy to break. =
The=20
point is, however, that fire isn't a great trapping element. It's =
certainly=20
reasonable to deny someone position, because they're concerned about =
taking=20
damage. It's not reasonable to have them stuck in the damage, so =
that they=20
can't get out.
This=20
doesn't suggest a web spell.
Further,=20
simply because the college existed with an entrapment spell in the =
past is=20
no reason to alter it so that it has one, now.
As=20
fire is still in probation this correction of a
change made foe =
changes=20
sake will be easy to make.
It's=20
kind of irrelevant if it is in probation. The important =
consideration is=20
whether or not the college can support such a spell, and =
bureaucratic=20
considerations like whether or not it can easily be done don't =
warrant=20
thinking about until such time as the support can be =
shown.
Jim
-----Original = Message-----I think this spell should = be put=20 back into the
From:=20 scott whitaker
fire college.
There was no valid reason for = dropping=20 and it is
most dfinitely not an overly poerful = spell.
O, and
5) It was potentially = a multi=20 target spell, as well, capturing and inflicting damage against as = many hex=20 sized creatures as the caster had Ranks.
Jim.------=_NextPart_000_000E_01BFDFCB.15CBDBE0-- -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jun 28 08:58:46 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id IAA15338; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 08:55:43 +1200 Received: from smtp4.ihug.co.nz (smtp4.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.5]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id IAA15335 for
The spell allows the = Adept to breathe fire. This is different from producing a cone effect = that comes from the Adept's location, or similar. If a spell is warded, = there is no Adept, and even if you take the centre of the ward as the = point of the Adept (as normal), it has no mouth to breathe.
It also limits one = of the most damaging (and multi-target) spells in the game, which is = fine by me.
On the other hand, a = potion effect makes some sense - you drink the potion, then breathe = flame. (As opposed to most damage spells, where you drink the poition, = then fall down dead).
Andrew
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Arona [SMTP:jimarona@ihug.co.nz]
Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2000 8:47 AM
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: =
Re: Warding Dragonflames
This came up in a game. In the new =
Fire College, Dragonflames cannot be Warded.=20
I have looked at the spell for a =
couple of days, now, and I cannot see why it should not be capable of =
being stored in that way. I proprose that it be changed so that it can =
be.
Jim
------=_NextPart_000_005C_01BFE0E2.FAFD53C0-- -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jun 28 09:47:01 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id JAA15627; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 09:31:21 +1200 Received: from smtp4.ihug.co.nz (smtp4.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.5]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id JAA15624 forBugger. I just checked, and the = spell says that=20 it does allow the Adept to breathe fire. And, it says 'the cone = issues from=20 the Adept's mouth'.Dayum.Jim
The spell allows the = Adept to=20 breathe fire. This is different from producing a cone effect that = comes from=20 the Adept's location, or similar. If a spell is warded, there is no = Adept,=20 and even if you take the centre of the ward as the point of the = Adept (as=20 normal), it has no mouth to breathe.
It also limits one of = the most=20 damaging (and multi-target) spells in the game, which is fine by = me.=20
On the other hand, a = potion effect=20 makes some sense - you drink the potion, then breathe flame. (As = opposed to=20 most damage spells, where you drink the poition, then fall down=20 dead).
Andrew=20
-----Original Message----- =
From: = Jim Arona = [SMTP:jimarona@ihug.co.nz]=20
Sent: = Wednesday, June 28, 2000 8:47 AM =
To: = dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: =20 Re: Warding DragonflamesThis came up in a game. In the = new Fire=20 College, Dragonflames cannot be Warded.
I have looked at the spell for a couple of days, now, = and I=20 cannot see why it should not be capable of being stored in that = way. I=20 proprose that it be changed so that it can be.Jim =
------=_NextPart_000_004B_01BFE0E2.76787620-- -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jun 28 10:14:06 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id KAA15846; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 10:03:57 +1200 Received: from smtp4.ihug.co.nz (smtp4.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.5]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id KAA15843 forThe spell allows the = Adept to=20 breathe fire. This is different from producing a cone effect that = comes from=20 the Adept's location, or similar. If a spell is warded, there is no = Adept,=20 and even if you take the centre of the ward as the point of the = Adept (as=20 normal), it has no mouth to breathe.
It also limits one of = the most=20 damaging (and multi-target) spells in the game, which is fine by = me.=20
On the other hand, a = potion effect=20 makes some sense - you drink the potion, then breathe flame. (As = opposed to=20 most damage spells, where you drink the poition, then fall down=20 dead).
Yeah, well, I looked at that, and = two things=20 were completely obvious to me.
1) The spell is not storable in a=20 potion.
2) The description says the = 'flames issue from=20 the Adept's mouth'.
This is like saying that a 'bolt = flies from=20 the Adept's hand...' It seems to me that the suggestion here is that = the=20 there is no internal change to the casting, i.e. they're not = changing=20 themselves so that they can breath fire. What is happening is that = they are=20 casting a spell that emanates from that particular body = part.
But, in any case, my justification = above is=20 merely pettifogging and quibbling.
Your main point is that the spell = is=20 multi-target and does an hideous amount of damage, and therefore it = is a bad=20 thing to put in a ward.
Well, yes, it does do a lot of = damage, but=20 really, so what? Triggered Wards just go off, they never fail, = backfire,=20 double or triple. They work like potions. The maximum amount of = damage you=20 can take from a Warded Dragonflames is 70 points. Admittedly, the = area of=20 effect is pretty huge, but again, so what?
The Fire College's biggest = limitation is that=20 it has little other to offer it's members than damage. Most other = colleges=20 can do a few rather nifty things with Wards, aside from causing = damage, and=20 that's fine. But, given that the strength of the college is burning, = then it=20 seems to me completely reasonable that it be wardable.
Jim
------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BFE0F0.B3993B80-- -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jun 28 11:30:02 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id LAA16339; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 11:20:15 +1200 Received: from defacto.peace.co.nz (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id LAA16336 forIt also limits one of = the most=20 damaging (and multi-target) spells in the game, which is fine by = me.=20
Actually, I was just thinking about Andrew's post above, and I = reckon=20 that unless wards can actually be lethal, then what is the point in = putting=20 damage spells in them?
I mean, if they only time you put a damage spell into a ward and = you're=20 not potentially killing someone that you don't want to pass over = that ward,=20 then it's an almost complete waste of time.
All you've done is to give the = people that=20 crossed the ward some idea of your resources, and made them a little = tired.
Jim
For the evil =
sorceror,warding is best for alarm spells or incinerate-type =
spells.
It is also useful =
for some free power-ups for your lackeys, in case you don't have time =
to put quickness on them all.
It also can scare =
off the encyclopaedia salesmen and low adventurers, so that anyone =
coming up the path is worth the effort of getting out of =
bed.
For the GM, wards = can be used for a variety of effects. Most of these wouldn't be = resist-or-die, as this lacks dramatic tension unless the party finds = them first, creating a DA-delay and loss of momentum.
(However, wards that =
blast your horse out from under you are fun).
They don't need to =
be used optimally for the NPCs, just for the story. I think that =
massive damage spells aren't as much fun as those that disintegrate a =
structural pillar, set off alarms, charm people _before_ the big fight, =
etc. They also give warning of the rank & range of magic or type of =
opposition <triggers on all non-undead - so you don't think this is =
a harmless wise woman then?>_if_ you wish.
Lots of fun, and = taking FT/EN from characters is only a small part of it.
Andrew
------_=_NextPart_001_01BFE095.7A78C270-- -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jun 28 12:59:53 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id MAA17063; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 12:50:16 +1200 Received: from mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (mailhost.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.1.4]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id MAA17060 for------=_NextPart_000_004D_01BFE0FF.110229E0-- -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jun 28 13:14:19 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id NAA17204; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 13:06:32 +1200 Received: from mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (mailhost.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.1.4]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id NAA17201 forAndrew Withy wrote:For the evil sorceror,warding is best for alarm spells or=20 incinerate-type spells.While I agree that the most useful spell for wards are alarm = spells,=20 the Fire college doesn't lend itself to much in that line, really. = Yes, it=20 can make a bloody big bang, and a hell of a flash, but it can't send = a=20 message to the warder that other's can't here.On the other hand, incinerate spells are bloody stink. What = they do is=20 force a die roll for the purposes of resisting or dying. If you roll = well,=20 you don't notice anything. If you blow it, the party is carrying you = home in=20 an urn. That's very NOT exciting.I'm not saying that they aren't a useful effect. It is nice to = have=20 spells in the game that let you drop someone in a single cast = action. But,=20 in a ward, it's just tedious.
It is also = useful for some=20 free power-ups for your lackeys, in case you don't have time to put=20 quickness on them all.Yes. Very true. Now, as a Fire mage, what am I going to stick = in a ward=20 that's going to be THAT useful? Fire Armour? O, well.The point is that Fire mage's specialise in damage. That's what = they=20 do.
It also can = scare off the=20 encyclopaedia salesmen and low adventurers, so that anyone coming up = the=20 path is worth the effort of getting out of bed.Yes, well. Hmm. But then, if you cast a wall of = smoke=20 spell at a low level adventurer, then they'll flee for the = hills...That=20 still won't get rid of the encyclopaedia salesman, I = know...For the GM, wards can = be used for a=20 variety of effects. Most of these wouldn't be resist-or-die, as this = lacks=20 dramatic tension unless the party finds them first, creating a = DA-delay and=20 loss of momentum.
I don't think DA-delay causes lack of momentum. = How else do=20 you build tension without letting players know what they're about to = walk=20 into the maw of?
Yes, a variety of effects is nice, but then that's = an=20 argument to increase the width and breadth of the Fire college, and = I just=20 don't think that's reasonable. I do think it's reasonable that you = have to=20 worry about a Ward of Dragonflames if you're going to mess with a = Fire mage,=20 though.
(However, wards that = blast your=20 horse out from under you are fun).
What kind of horse are you riding? Dear God, man, the horse would = have to=20 be suffering from something like polio to be blown apart by any = spell that=20 didn't do damage of the order of Dragonflames. They have truckloads = of EN=20 and FT, you know....
They don't need = to be used=20 optimally for the NPCs, just for the story.
That isn't my point. Optimal use is neither here nor there. = Congruence with the expectable is what I'm talking about. If you = engage in=20 conflict with a Fire mage, then you expect to wear a bit of damage. = You=20 don't expect their wards to give you a bit of a hard time, and make = you swig=20 back an healing potion. Frankly, charcoal briquettes has been the = sort of=20 thing I've come to expect from fiddling with things that they=20 own.
It is an = optimal use, that=20 is not congruent with the expectable, to have NPCs that regularly = hire other=20 people to cast wards on their behalf. If you do it frequently = enough, then=20 the expectation changes. And, then what happens is that a ward is = DAed and=20 found to contain, say, a Necrosis, and the party breathes a sigh of = relief,=20 because they know they can't be up against a Necromancer...How naff = is=20 that?
I think that massive = damage spells=20 aren't as much fun as those that disintegrate a structural pillar, = set off=20 alarms, charm people _before_ the big fight, etc. They also give = warning of=20 the rank & range of magic or type of opposition <triggers on = all=20 non-undead - so you don't think this is a harmless wise woman = then?>_if_=20 you wish.
Well, I disagree with a lot of = that, actually.=20 I don't think charms should be that frequently used against pcs, = because=20 they deny the player control of their character. Ultimately, the = pc's input=20 has just been reduced, which is unfair, because they no longer have = the same=20 leverage on the game. And, the whole point of turning up of a = Tuesday=20 evening or whenever is to have a bit of fun with your friends. = There's=20 bugger all fun if you only get to play under the watchful gaze of = the DM,=20 and you're unsure what limitations apply to the nature of the=20 charm.
As for = disintegrating a=20 structural pillar, I don't see why that's much better than blowing = 12 bells=20 out of them with high Ranked Dragonflames, and may, in fact, be = considerably=20 worse.
Lots of fun, and = taking FT/EN from=20 characters is only a small part of it.
That's true. There are lots of = things that=20 other colleges can do to have fun with wards. Fire mages, on the = other hand,=20 get to load them up with piles of damage. I think that's fine. The = other=20 colleges get to do some cunning things of their own, but a ward = filled with=20 Dragonflames demands respect, in a way that no other spell = does.
What else have you got to ward, if = you're a=20 Fire mage?
Jim
For the evil = sorceror,warding is best=20 for alarm spells or incinerate-type spells.
It is also useful for some free power-ups for = your lackeys,=20 in case you don't have time to put quickness on them all. =
It also can scare off the = encyclopaedia=20 salesmen and low adventurers, so that anyone coming up the path is = worth the=20 effort of getting out of bed.For the GM, = wards can be=20 used for a variety of effects. Most of these wouldn't be = resist-or-die, as=20 this lacks dramatic tension unless the party finds them first, = creating a=20 DA-delay and loss of momentum.
Personally as a GM the best wards I use are=20 inconvienience wards as defence. I use Binders as bad guy = with "Bubble=20 of force" and the stick floor spell, to best effect. Damage has never = really=20 worked as an option.
Mandos
/s
<= /HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01BFE109.834C3C70-- -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jun 28 14:44:08 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id OAA17976; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 14:30:03 +1200 Received: from kakapo.cs.auckland.ac.nz (kakapo.cs.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.34.10]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id OAA17970 for
; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 14:29:56 +1200 Received: from [130.216.108.110] (clare.cs.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.108.110]) by kakapo.cs.auckland.ac.nz (8.8.6/8.8.6/cs-master) with ESMTP id OAA10880 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 14:28:35 +1200 (NZST) (sender clare@cs.auckland.ac.nz) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: clare@staffpop.cs.auckland.ac.nz Message-Id: Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 14:28:36 +1200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Subject: Banishing and Celestial mutterings (was Re: Lesser Efreeti) From: clare@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Clare West) To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > >Michael Parkinson wrote: > > > >PS: It's bad enough that "called masters" can not be banished anymore. > >They can't? Quote from Namer, Banishing (S-4): "Call Master is not classified as a summoning spell." Namer Banishment can only banish entities summoned with a summoning spell/ritual. Which means it can't banish dark/light spheres (uh-oh - Ithilmor always thought it could), or Demons summoned by Call Master or any means other than the appropriate G.Summoner Rituals. Which is most Demons, most of the time. It is useful against Elementals, Efreeti and Salamaders and not a lot else. Interestingly there is a contradiction in the spell discription. The targets are listed as "Summonable entities", but the examples specifically mention Dark Spheres as being basnishable (but not Light Spheres). Talking about dark/light spheres. Why in the new spell price lists, is this ritual listed as only being learnable by Dark/Solar mages? Never is listed for Star/Shadow mages (compared with Quest for Dark/Solar). The description of the ritual specifically mentions Star and Shadow mages being able to cast it. Also the price list now makes all specials available, at the guild to all branches of the Celestial college - this was not the case before. I thought that this restriction in the spells available at the guild was going to be continued. -- Clare West, Rm 111, Ext 8266 clare@cs.auckland.ac.nz -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jun 28 14:59:02 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id OAA18156; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 14:51:11 +1200 Received: from defacto.peace.co.nz (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id OAA18149 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 14:51:07 +1200 Message-ID: <39596372.94BB72C4@peace.com> Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 14:31:14 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Banishing and Celestial mutterings (was Re: Lesser Efreeti) From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Clare West wrote: > Interestingly there is a contradiction in the spell discription. The > targets are listed as "Summonable entities", but the examples > specifically mention Dark Spheres as being basnishable (but not Light > Spheres). You are assuming that Dark and Light spheres are not entities? :) "It's life Jim, but not as we know it". Looks like an oversight. The spheres are "summoned" and controlled and should (IMHO and experience) be banishable. -- _/_/ Peace Software New Zealand Ltd Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com _/ Martin Dickson Fax : +64-9-373-0401 Analyst Phone: +64-9-373-0400 -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jun 28 15:14:26 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id PAA18261; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 15:03:30 +1200 Received: from akl-notes2.aj.co.nz (akl-notes.aj.co.nz [202.27.194.165]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id PAA18258 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 15:03:26 +1200 Received: from akl-notes.aj.co.nz ([192.168.4.165]) by akl-notes2.aj.co.nz (Lotus Domino Release 5.0.3 (Intl)) with ESMTP id 2000062815065335:5178 ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 15:06:53 +1200 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.3 (Intl) 21 March 2000 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 15:04:59 +1200 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on akl-notes.aj.co.nz/AJNzl/NZ(Release 5.0.3 (Intl)|21 March 2000) at 28/06/2000 15:04:56, Serialize complete at 28/06/2000 15:04:56, Itemize by SMTP Server on akl-notes2/AJNzl/NZ(Release 5.0.3 (Intl)|21 March 2000) at 28/06/2000 15:06:53, Serialize by Router on akl-notes2/AJNzl/NZ(Release 5.0.3 (Intl)|21 March 2000) at 28/06/2000 15:06:56, Serialize complete at 28/06/2000 15:06:56 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 0010CED7CC25690C_=" Subject: Re: Celestial Special Knowledge From: Rosemary_Mansfield/AJNzl/NZ@AJ.CO.NZ To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 0010CED7CC25690C_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Clare Wrote: Talking about dark/light spheres. Why in the new spell price lists, is this ritual listed as only being learnable by Dark/Solar mages? Never is listed for Star/Shadow mages (compared with Quest for Dark/Solar). The description of the ritual specifically mentions Star and Shadow mages being able to cast it. For the Celestial colleges I took which spells belonged to which college from the previous spell price list. Since this ritual wasn't listed I guessed. In this case wrongly. Oops Clare Wrote: Also the price list now makes all specials available, at the guild to all branches of the Celestial college - this was not the case before. I thought that this restriction in the spells available at the guild was going to be continued. Not all the Celestial SK is for sale, just more than previously. The consensus of the email discussions and the Spell Price Workshop was that most spells should be available. There was no good reason to limit the 'little' spells, and the tough spells have been made Very expensive. The exceptions are the worst of the OTT spells, usually only one or two per college. Rosemary --=_alternative 0010CED7CC25690C_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
Clare Wrote:
Talking about dark/light spheres. Why in the new spell price lists,
is this ritual listed as only being learnable by Dark/Solar mages?
Never is listed for Star/Shadow mages (compared with Quest for
Dark/Solar). The description of the ritual specifically mentions Star
and Shadow mages being able to cast it.
For the Celestial colleges I took which spells belonged to which college from the previous spell price list.
Since this ritual wasn't listed I guessed. In this case wrongly. Oops
Clare Wrote:
Also the price list now makes all specials available, at the guild to
all branches of the Celestial college - this was not the case before.
I thought that this restriction in the spells available at the guild
was going to be continued.
Not all the Celestial SK is for sale, just more than previously.
The consensus of the email discussions and the Spell Price Workshop was that most spells should be available. There was no good reason to limit the 'little' spells, and the tough spells have been made Very expensive. The exceptions are the worst of the OTT spells, usually only one or two per college.
Rosemary --=_alternative 0010CED7CC25690C_=-- -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jun 28 16:14:32 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id QAA18775; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 16:01:39 +1200 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (smtp2.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.8]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id QAA18772 for; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 16:01:35 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p62-tnt8.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.138.62]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id PAA01110 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 15:59:47 +1200 Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 15:52:51 +1200 Message-ID: <01bfe0b4$559f46a0$3e8a6dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Lesser Efreeti From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Martin Dickson wrote: >Call Master came out of Black when it became Witchcraft and became a >magical talent (for want of a better description) that agents get as part >of their pact. It also changed to be a request for help rather than a true >summoning -- Boss can decide not to show up... or can send a minor flunkie, >etc -- giving the GM more flexibility, not ending up with over-powering >demons running around, etc. > >The flip-side is, since there is no specific college magic involved, there >is no appropriate counterspell for the Namer to use to banish. This is >good and bad... it means when the party offs the evil priest of Aim and the >Mr. Fiery turns up the party are no worse off should they fail to have a >Namer. :) > >Call Patron can't be banished in the same way that Geas can't be >dissapated. Well, yes, but that's a case of arguing a rule to fit the cases, rather than working out what you want to achieve. The issue to discuss is: 'Should Namers be able to banish those things summoned (or called) by people who have pacts with them?' Anything else other than this is merely a discussion about what the rules currently reflect. And, I'm not convinced about the argument for Geas, either. That spell has a clear intent, over and beyond being magic that is not colleged. The idea of that spell is that it shouldn't be dissipated easily, in much the same way that curses shouldn't be. Jim -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jun 28 16:16:03 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id QAA18843; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 16:11:37 +1200 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (smtp2.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.8]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id QAA18840 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 16:11:32 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p62-tnt8.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.138.62]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id QAA02561 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 16:10:10 +1200 Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 16:03:17 +1200 Message-ID: <01bfe0b5$ca930b80$3e8a6dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001C_01BFE11A.5FC7EB80" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Warding Dragonflames - why ward non-lethal damage spells?... From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01BFE11A.5FC7EB80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 For the evil sorceror,warding is best for alarm spells or = incinerate-type spells.=20 It is also useful for some free power-ups for your lackeys, in = case you don't have time to put quickness on them all.=20 It also can scare off the encyclopaedia salesmen and low = adventurers, so that anyone coming up the path is worth the effort of = getting out of bed. =20 For the GM, wards can be used for a variety of effects. Most of = these wouldn't be resist-or-die, as this lacks dramatic tension unless = the party finds them first, creating a DA-delay and loss of momentum.=20 =20 Personally as a GM the best wards I use are inconvienience wards = as defence. I use Binders as bad guy with "Bubble of force" and the = stick floor spell, to best effect. Damage has never really worked as an = option.=20 =20 No. Instead, you use a spell for which there is no remedy. Once = inside the wretched thing, there's no way out. That's neither fair nor = reasonable as a DM. And, as far as the discussion goes, it's beside the = point.=20 =20 Let me make the point again. Fire mages have little else to do = except inflict damage, which is fine, really. That's the kind of element = that fire is. But, there is precious little point in having a ward that = will not potentially kill people, because all it really does is provide = them with information, and makes them use up healing potions. =20 To that end, Dragonflames should be wardable. =20 Jim =20 ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01BFE11A.5FC7EB80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Warding Dragonflames - why ward = non-lethal damage spells?... ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01BFE11A.5FC7EB80-- -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jun 28 16:44:16 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id QAA19004; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 16:30:23 +1200 Received: from defacto.peace.co.nz (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id QAA19001 forFor the evil = sorceror,warding=20 is best for alarm spells or incinerate-type spells. =
It is also useful for some = free=20 power-ups for your lackeys, in case you don't have time to put = quickness=20 on them all.
It also=20 can scare off the encyclopaedia salesmen and low adventurers, so = that=20 anyone coming up the path is worth the effort of getting out of=20 bed.For = the GM, wards=20 can be used for a variety of effects. Most of these wouldn't be=20 resist-or-die, as this lacks dramatic tension unless the party = finds=20 them first, creating a DA-delay and loss of momentum.
Personally as a GM the best wards I use = are=20 inconvienience wards as defence. I use Binders as bad guy with = "Bubble=20 of force" and the stick floor spell, to best effect. Damage has = never=20 really worked as an option.
No. Instead, you use a spell for = which there=20 is no remedy. Once inside the wretched thing, there's no way out. = That's=20 neither fair nor reasonable as a DM. And, as far as the discussion = goes,=20 it's beside the point.
Let me make the point again. Fire = mages have=20 little else to do except inflict damage, which is fine, really. = That's the=20 kind of element that fire is. But, there is precious little point in = having=20 a ward that will not potentially kill people, because all it really = does is=20 provide them with information, and makes them use up healing=20 potions.
To that end, Dragonflames should = be=20 wardable.
Jim
; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 16:30:19 +1200 Message-ID: <39597AA9.E9622B9D@peace.com> Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 16:10:17 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Lesser Efreeti From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Jim Arona wrote: > The issue to discuss is: > 'Should Namers be able to banish those things summoned (or called) by people > who have pacts with them?' > Anything else other than this is merely a discussion about what the rules > currently reflect. I didn't realise that there was an issue. You appeared to be surprised that things summoned by Agents could not be banished by a Namer and I was simply outlining the current situation. Regards, Martin -- _/_/ Peace Software New Zealand Ltd Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com _/ Martin Dickson Fax : +64-9-373-0401 Analyst Phone: +64-9-373-0400 -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jun 28 17:29:44 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id RAA19271; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 17:19:56 +1200 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id RAA19268 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 17:19:49 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p30-tnt2.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.245.30]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id RAA15801 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 17:18:23 +1200 Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 17:11:17 +1200 Message-ID: <01bfe0bf$4a763760$1ef56dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Lesser Efreeti From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz >> The issue to discuss is: >> 'Should Namers be able to banish those things summoned (or called) by people >> who have pacts with them?' >> Anything else other than this is merely a discussion about what the rules >> currently reflect. > >I didn't realise that there was an issue. You appeared to be surprised that >things summoned by Agents could not be banished by a Namer and I was simply >outlining the current situation. Frankly, I don't care. I was surprised, and no more. I can live with whatever situation pertains. That said, however, I think that whether or not magic like that is dissipatable because it's out of college is really just a red herring. It's nice if the rules are congruent with why things work, but I would never accept a reason like that as a justification for why something can or cannot be done. I mean, that line of reasoning is arid and empty, because it suggests 'It works this way, because that's the way the rules say it does'- Which is completely circular. Whereas, what ought to be happening is that we should be approaching rules from the position of deciding whether or not a rule elicits the right type of responses from players. Well, at least, that's one kind of consideration, anyway. Jim -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jun 28 17:44:26 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id RAA19423; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 17:42:31 +1200 Received: from mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (mailhost.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.1.4]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id RAA19420 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 17:42:21 +1200 Received: from sci4 (lbr-122-42.lbrsc.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.122.42]) by mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (8.9.2/8.9.2/8.9.2-ua) with SMTP id RAA19190 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 17:40:58 +1200 (NZST) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 17:39:49 +1200 Message-ID: <000301bfe0c3$46520c50$2a7ad882@sci4> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Subject: Astrologer is stuffed From: "Michael Parkinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Dear All, I'd like to start a discussion of what we want the Astrology skill to do. Here's some reasons why the Astrologer skill is broken: #1 QUOTE The results of a reading will affect the pertinent course of events. The GM is expected to modify the outcome of an adventure or happening in their world to conform with a determination made by an astrologer or by an astrologer at the behest of a character. PROBLEM ** This asinine ability is seldom played by GMs. And a good job too. I will NOT change my scenario because some PLAYER has *determined* that this is the OBLIGATORY outcome. I do expect my players to thwart the plans of some NPCs -- but through appropriate guile & brute-strength, not because some player has rewritten the ending. #2 QUOTE An astrologer's Rank determines how many beings they can directly affect with a single prediction. A being is directly affected by an astrologer's art when the GM modifies the result of an action taken by the being due to a prophecy. PROBLEM ** Frankly, this would suggest that an Astrologer can make NO determinations -- since almost everything has a flow-on effect to other people. #3 QUOTE The result of the divination becomes the astrologer's prediction. If the astrologer does not wish to make the prediction, they may immediately attempt to change it. PROBLEMS ** That is, the GM cannot alter the effect of the PLAYER's prediction, but the player can ???? ** Note that this is ONLY skill which absolutely REQUIRES the player to perform the skill which their _character_ has; no player of a troubador is required to play a lute; no player of a beast-master is required to subdue their unicorn; etc. Illustrative example: Sibyl the astrologer (played by Charlie), is doing a reading for Yorick (played by Billie) -- As written DQ requires Charlie to _actually_ perform a "real" divinatory technique. If Sybil were a healer, we wouldn't require Charlie to resurrect Billie in real-life for Yorick to be resurrected in the game. #4 QUOTE An astrologer may not make a general prediction or ask a specific question concerning only themself. PROBLEM ** This is absurd & has no cultural basis whatsoever, provided that we do get rid of the stupid ability of the Astrologer to change the course of future to match their prediction -- or at least make it inapplicable on self-readings. Indeed there is the "historical" death of the soothsayer Calchas, who died of laughter at the thought of having outlived his own death prediction. Of course I can see the GM refusing to answer certain questions, in order not to restrict the game or put an unacceptable obligation on future GMs. Btw, the numbers are pretty screwy as well. regards, Michael -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jun 28 17:58:45 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id RAA19494; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 17:48:48 +1200 Received: from mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (mailhost.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.1.4]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id RAA19491 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 17:48:42 +1200 Received: from sci4 (lbr-122-42.lbrsc.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.122.42]) by mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (8.9.2/8.9.2/8.9.2-ua) with SMTP id RAA19983 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 17:47:20 +1200 (NZST) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 17:46:11 +1200 Message-ID: <000401bfe0c4$29ff6b00$2a7ad882@sci4> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Subject: RE: Lesser Efreeti From: "Michael Parkinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > > >PS: It's bad enough that "called masters" can not be banished anymore. > > > > They can't? > > [...] Call Patron can't be banished in the same way that Geas can't be > dissapated. Get rid of the problem at it source, I say. "Dissipate" the damned black mages & you won't have any evil Demons (sorry, Patrons) turning up more than once a piece. -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Jun 29 04:28:31 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id EAA23254; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 04:20:29 +1200 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id EAA23251 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 04:20:25 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p143-tnt1.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.111.143]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id EAA25080 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 04:18:51 +1200 Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 04:11:42 +1200 Message-ID: <01bfe11b$8cbe1fa0$8f6f12ce@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Astrologer is stuffed From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Michael Parkinson wrote: >#1 QUOTE >The results of a reading will affect the pertinent course of events. The GM is expected to modify >the outcome of an adventure or happening in their world to conform with a determination made by an >astrologer or by an astrologer at the behest of a character. > >PROBLEM >** This asinine ability is seldom played by GMs. And a good job too. I will NOT change my >scenario because some PLAYER has *determined* that this is the OBLIGATORY outcome. I do expect my >players to thwart the plans of some NPCs -- but through appropriate guile & brute-strength, not >because some player has rewritten the ending. I quite agree. It is stupid. >#2 QUOTE >An astrologer's Rank determines how many beings they can directly affect with a single prediction. >A being is directly affected by an astrologer's art when the GM modifies the result of an action >taken by the being due to a prophecy. > >PROBLEM >** Frankly, this would suggest that an Astrologer can make NO determinations -- since almost >everything has a flow-on effect to other people. Yes, well, this is poorly written, but I think it's too stop making the prediction too specific by including a number of constants into the astrological equation, like naming other people. It probably only needs to reworded. >#3 QUOTE >The result of the divination becomes the astrologer's prediction. If the astrologer does not wish >to make the prediction, they may immediately attempt to change it. > >PROBLEMS >** That is, the GM cannot alter the effect of the PLAYER's prediction, but the player can ???? >** Note that this is ONLY skill which absolutely REQUIRES the player to perform the skill which >their _character_ has; no player of a troubador is required to play a lute; no player of a >beast-master is required to subdue their unicorn; etc. >Illustrative example: Sibyl the astrologer (played by Charlie), is doing a reading for Yorick >(played by Billie) -- As written DQ requires Charlie to _actually_ perform a "real" divinatory >technique. If Sybil were a healer, we wouldn't require Charlie to resurrect Billie in real-life >for Yorick to be resurrected in the game. Yes, again stupid. Ditch it completely, I say. >#4 QUOTE >An astrologer may not make a general prediction or ask a specific question concerning only >themself. > >PROBLEM >** This is absurd & has no cultural basis whatsoever, provided that we do get rid of the stupid >ability of the Astrologer to change the course of future to match their prediction -- or at least >make it inapplicable on self-readings. Indeed there is the "historical" death of the soothsayer >Calchas, who died of laughter at the thought of having outlived his own death prediction. >Of course I can see the GM refusing to answer certain questions, in order not to restrict the game >or put an unacceptable obligation on future GMs. > >Btw, the numbers are pretty screwy as well. Yes, they are, but then, what's new with that. Still, no reason not to break out the wire brush and dettol and give it a good going over. Jim -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Jun 29 08:43:48 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id IAA24534; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 08:28:40 +1200 Received: from enterprise.iconz.co.nz (enterprise.iconz.co.nz [210.48.22.40]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id IAA24529 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 08:28:36 +1200 Received: (qmail 9603 invoked by alias); 28 Jun 2000 20:26:57 -0000 Received: from fe0.firewall.ak.iconz.net.nz (HELO escher) (202.14.100.208) by enterprise.iconz.co.nz with SMTP; 28 Jun 2000 20:26:57 -0000 Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 08:26:57 +1200 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0031_01BFE1A3.CA05CD80" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Subject: RE: Warding Dragonflames - why ward non-lethal damage spells?... From: "Mandos Mitchinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0031_01BFE1A3.CA05CD80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit RE: Warding Dragonflames - why ward non-lethal damage spells?...Let me make the point again. Fire mages have little else to do except inflict damage, which is fine, really. That's the kind of element that fire is. But, there is precious little point in having a ward that will not potentially kill people, because all it really does is provide them with information, and makes them use up healing potions. To that end, Dragonflames should be wardable. Why not look at it from another angle? If there is nothing to ward, remove ward. If it adds nothing to the collage and is not used then don't bother having it. Or on the other hand you could just make it a ritual that people have to specifically buy of their own free will and character choice so that if they want to use it they will go and get it......oh wait thats how it is now. The fact is it is not forced on people, it dosn't make them any less effective as a collage to have he ritual and if it has uses thats great if it dosn't then thats great too. It comes down to player choice. Making Dragonflames wardable does not add anything to the game particularly, it dosn't add flavour to the collage, it dosn't even give much more of a reason to purchase ward. There is no particular reason that I can see in favour of warding DF but on the other hand who really cares if you can. Mandos /s ------=_NextPart_000_0031_01BFE1A3.CA05CD80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Warding Dragonflames - why ward non-lethal damage = spells?... Let me make the point again. Fire = mages have=20 little else to do except inflict damage, which is fine, really. = That's the=20 kind of element that fire is. But, there is precious little point in = having=20 a ward that will not potentially kill people, because all it really = does is=20 provide them with information, and makes them use up healing=20 potions.
To that end, Dragonflames = should be=20 wardable.
Why not look at it from another=20 angle?
If there is nothing to ward, remove ward. If = it adds=20 nothing to the collage and is not used then don't bother having = it. Or on=20 the other hand you could just make it a ritual that people have to = specifically=20 buy of their own free will and character choice so that if they want to = use it=20 they will go and get it......oh wait thats how it is=20 now.
The fact is it is not forced on people, it = dosn't make=20 them any less effective as a collage to have he ritual and if it has = uses thats=20 great if it dosn't then thats great too. It comes down to player=20 choice.
Making=20 Dragonflames wardable does not add anything to the game particularly, it = dosn't=20 add flavour to the collage, it dosn't even give much more of a reason to = purchase ward.
There is=20 no particular reason that I can see in favour of warding DF but on the = other=20 hand who really cares if you can.
Mandos
/s
<= /HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_0031_01BFE1A3.CA05CD80-- -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Jun 29 10:44:10 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id KAA25417; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 10:42:11 +1200 Received: from fclaklmr02.fcl.co.nz ([202.14.23.202] (may be forged)) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id KAA25414 for
; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 10:42:07 +1200 Received: from falaklex00.falum.co.nz (10.8.1.28) by fclaklmr02.fcl.co.nz Thursday, June 29, 2000 10:36:44 Message-ID: Received: by falaklex00.fcl.co.nz with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 10:39:54 +1200 Message-ID: <311B3C3DD32FD311B33900805F770A72010B164A@falaklex00.fcl.co.nz> Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 10:39:53 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01BFE151.C701E790" Subject: RE: Astrologer is stuffed From: "Andrew Withy (FAL AKL)" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01BFE151.C701E790 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" The general reading and specific reading *concepts* seem fine - that you can just ask "tell me about the problem", or "what is the answer to this fragment of the problem" I think that the numbers should be lower, and relate to the accuracy of the astrology reading. Fore example, when I had Rank 0 Astrologer (and no greater), I was at 90%+Rank for most of my BCs. This doesn't give much reason to rank it. I'd be happier with general questions being 2 x PC + 6/Rank, and specific questions being PC + 8/Rank or similar numbers. You shouldn't be able to ever change your answers if you don't like them. Perhaps there should be a translation ability where astrologers will get hints what astrology readings might mean or pertain to. Andrew > -----Original Message----- > From: Jim Arona [SMTP:jimarona@ihug.co.nz] > Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2000 4:12 AM > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Subject: Re: Astrologer is stuffed > > Michael Parkinson wrote: > >#1 QUOTE > >The results of a reading will affect the pertinent course of events. The > GM > is expected to modify > >the outcome of an adventure or happening in their world to conform with a > determination made by an > >astrologer or by an astrologer at the behest of a character. > > > >PROBLEM > >** This asinine ability is seldom played by GMs. And a good job too. I > will NOT change my > >scenario because some PLAYER has *determined* that this is the OBLIGATORY > outcome. I do expect my > >players to thwart the plans of some NPCs -- but through appropriate guile > & > brute-strength, not > >because some player has rewritten the ending. > > I quite agree. It is stupid. > > >#2 QUOTE > >An astrologer's Rank determines how many beings they can directly affect > with a single prediction. > >A being is directly affected by an astrologer's art when the GM modifies > the result of an action > >taken by the being due to a prophecy. > > > >PROBLEM > >** Frankly, this would suggest that an Astrologer can make NO > determinations -- since almost > >everything has a flow-on effect to other people. > > Yes, well, this is poorly written, but I think it's too stop making the > prediction too specific by including a number of constants into the > astrological equation, like naming other people. > It probably only needs to reworded. > > >#3 QUOTE > >The result of the divination becomes the astrologer's prediction. If the > astrologer does not wish > >to make the prediction, they may immediately attempt to change it. > > > >PROBLEMS > >** That is, the GM cannot alter the effect of the PLAYER's prediction, > but > the player can ???? > >** Note that this is ONLY skill which absolutely REQUIRES the player to > perform the skill which > >their _character_ has; no player of a troubador is required to play a > lute; no player of a > >beast-master is required to subdue their unicorn; etc. > >Illustrative example: Sibyl the astrologer (played by Charlie), is doing > a > reading for Yorick > >(played by Billie) -- As written DQ requires Charlie to _actually_ > perform > a "real" divinatory > >technique. If Sybil were a healer, we wouldn't require Charlie to > resurrect Billie in real-life > >for Yorick to be resurrected in the game. > > Yes, again stupid. Ditch it completely, I say. > > >#4 QUOTE > >An astrologer may not make a general prediction or ask a specific > question > concerning only > >themself. > > > >PROBLEM > >** This is absurd & has no cultural basis whatsoever, provided that we do > get rid of the stupid > >ability of the Astrologer to change the course of future to match their > prediction -- or at least > >make it inapplicable on self-readings. Indeed there is the "historical" > death of the soothsayer > >Calchas, who died of laughter at the thought of having outlived his own > death prediction. > >Of course I can see the GM refusing to answer certain questions, in order > not to restrict the game > >or put an unacceptable obligation on future GMs. > > > >Btw, the numbers are pretty screwy as well. > > Yes, they are, but then, what's new with that. Still, no reason not to > break > out the wire brush and dettol and give it a good going over. > Jim > > > > -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- ------_=_NextPart_001_01BFE151.C701E790 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Astrologer is stuffed The general reading = and specific reading *concepts* seem fine - that you can just ask = "tell me about the problem", or "what is the answer to = this fragment of the problem"
I think that the = numbers should be lower, and relate to the accuracy of the astrology = reading. Fore example, when I had Rank 0 Astrologer (and no greater), I = was at 90%+Rank for most of my BCs. This doesn't give much reason to = rank it. I'd be happier with general questions being 2 x PC + 6/Rank, = and specific questions being PC + 8/Rank or similar numbers.
You shouldn't be = able to ever change your answers if you don't like them.
Perhaps there should = be a translation ability where astrologers will get hints what = astrology readings might mean or pertain to.
Andrew
------_=_NextPart_001_01BFE151.C701E790-- -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Jun 29 11:59:45 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id LAA25824; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 11:48:02 +1200 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id LAA25821 for
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Arona [SMTP:jimarona@ihug.co.nz]
Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2000 4:12 AM
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: = Re: Astrologer is stuffedMichael Parkinson wrote:
>#1 QUOTE
>The results of a reading will = affect the pertinent course of events. The GM
is expected to modify
>the outcome of an adventure or = happening in their world to conform with a
determination made by an
>astrologer or by an astrologer at = the behest of a character.
>
>PROBLEM
>** This asinine ability is seldom = played by GMs. And a good job too. I
will NOT change my
>scenario because some PLAYER has = *determined* that this is the OBLIGATORY
outcome. I do expect my
>players to thwart the plans of = some NPCs -- but through appropriate guile &
brute-strength, not
>because some player has rewritten = the ending.I quite agree. It is stupid.
>#2 QUOTE
>An astrologer's Rank determines = how many beings they can directly affect
with a single prediction.
>A being is directly affected by = an astrologer's art when the GM modifies
the result of an action
>taken by the being due to a = prophecy.
>
>PROBLEM
>** Frankly, this would = suggest that an Astrologer can make NO
determinations -- since almost
>everything has a flow-on effect = to other people.Yes, well, this is poorly written, but = I think it's too stop making the
prediction too specific by including = a number of constants into the
astrological equation, like naming = other people.
It probably only needs to = reworded.>#3 QUOTE
>The result of the divination = becomes the astrologer's prediction. If the
astrologer does not wish
>to make the prediction, they may = immediately attempt to change it.
>
>PROBLEMS
>** That is, the GM cannot = alter the effect of the PLAYER's prediction, but
the player can ????
>** Note that this is ONLY = skill which absolutely REQUIRES the player to
perform the skill which
>their _character_ has; no = player of a troubador is required to play a
lute; no player of a
>beast-master is required to = subdue their unicorn; etc.
>Illustrative example: Sibyl the = astrologer (played by Charlie), is doing a
reading for Yorick
>(played by Billie) -- As = written DQ requires Charlie to _actually_ perform
a "real" divinatory
>technique. If Sybil = were a healer, we wouldn't require Charlie to
resurrect Billie in real-life
>for Yorick to be resurrected in = the game.Yes, again stupid. Ditch it = completely, I say.
>#4 QUOTE
>An astrologer may not make a = general prediction or ask a specific question
concerning only
>themself.
>
>PROBLEM
>** This is absurd & has no = cultural basis whatsoever, provided that we do
get rid of the stupid
>ability of the Astrologer to = change the course of future to match their
prediction -- or at least
>make it inapplicable on = self-readings. Indeed there is the "historical"
death of the soothsayer
>Calchas, who died of laughter at = the thought of having outlived his own
death prediction.
>Of course I can see the GM = refusing to answer certain questions, in order
not to restrict the game
>or put an unacceptable obligation = on future GMs.
>
>Btw, the numbers are pretty = screwy as well.Yes, they are, but then, what's new = with that. Still, no reason not to break
out the wire brush and dettol and = give it a good going over.
Jim
-- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html = --
; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 11:47:58 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p220-tnt2.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.245.220]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id LAA07623 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 11:46:13 +1200 Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 11:39:01 +1200 Message-ID: <01bfe15a$09f1a1c0$dcf56dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000F_01BFE1BE.9F2681C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Warding Dragonflames - why ward non-lethal damage spells?... From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BFE1BE.9F2681C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable George Mitchinson wrote: Let me make the point again. Fire mages have little else to do = except inflict damage, which is fine, really. That's the kind of element = that fire is. But, there is precious little point in having a ward that = will not potentially kill people, because all it really does is provide = them with information, and makes them use up healing potions. =20 To that end, Dragonflames should be wardable.=20 =20 Why not look at it from another angle?=20 =20 If there is nothing to ward, remove ward. If it adds nothing to the = collage and is not used then don't bother having it. Or on the other = hand you could just make it a ritual that people have to specifically = buy of their own free will and character choice so that if they want to = use it they will go and get it......oh wait thats how it is now. =20 I'm not saying that they have to buy ward. I am saying that they get = precious little benefit out of an high EM spell, that we never used to = have a problem dealing with before, when it was wardable, and that I = don't see why it is one, now. =20 The fact is it is not forced on people, it dosn't make them any less = effective as a collage to have he ritual and if it has uses thats great = if it dosn't then thats great too. It comes down to player choice. =20 No, it doesn't come down to player choice. It comes down to what is = good or useful to the game. The world is not defined by player choice, = it is defined by what makes for a good bloody game, not the democratic = wishes of a bunch of people who throw dice. =20 Making Dragonflames wardable does not add anything to the game = particularly, it dosn't add flavour to the collage, it dosn't even give = much more of a reason to purchase ward.=20 =20 Yes, it DOES add flavour. =20 The point of wards is that they add tension to the game. If you know = that you're always going to survive against them, or not suffer too = badly, then it's hard to invest much tension when players are dealing = with them. Yes, there are lots of ways of using wards, and no, I really = don't need lessons in working out what they are. What I am saying is = that a Fire mage should reasonably be able to inflict serious harm to = people that come into contact with their wards.=20 =20 At the moment, they just make them a little tired. They might make = some of their equipment burn, I suppose, but I've never seen that = happen. =20 And, frankly, it's irrelevant whether or not you think a player = would or would not buy Ward so that they can store Dragonflames. It is = important that NPCs be able to do so. If for no other reason than that = it provides another avenue by which to warn players that they are coming = up against someone with significant Ranks in Dragonflames. =20 As the DM, you can choose whether or not you're going to place = Dragonflames as a Ward, after all. =20 Jim =20 =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BFE1BE.9F2681C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Warding Dragonflames - why ward = non-lethal damage spells?... George Mitchinson=20 wrote:------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BFE1BE.9F2681C0-- -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Jun 29 12:15:07 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id MAA26012; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 12:12:25 +1200 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id MAA26009 forLet me make the point = again. Fire=20 mages have little else to do except inflict damage, which is = fine,=20 really. That's the kind of element that fire is. But, there = is=20 precious little point in having a ward that will not = potentially=20 kill people, because all it really does is provide them with = information, and makes them use up healing = potions.
To that end, = Dragonflames should=20 be wardable.
Why not look at it from another=20 angle?
If there is nothing to ward, remove ward. = If it=20 adds nothing to the collage and is not used then don't bother having = it. Or=20 on the other hand you could just make it a ritual that people have = to=20 specifically buy of their own free will and character choice so that = if they=20 want to use it they will go and get it......oh wait thats how it is=20 now.
I'm not saying that they have to = buy ward. I=20 am saying that they get precious little benefit out of an high EM = spell,=20 that we never used to have a problem dealing with before, when it = was=20 wardable, and that I don't see why it is one, now.
The fact is it is not forced on people, = it dosn't=20 make them any less effective as a collage to have he ritual and if = it has=20 uses thats great if it dosn't then thats great too. It comes down to = player=20 choice.
No, it doesn't come down to player = choice. It=20 comes down to what is good or useful to the game. The world is not = defined=20 by player choice, it is defined by what makes for a good bloody = game, not=20 the democratic wishes of a bunch of people who throw = dice.
Making Dragonflames wardable does not add = anything=20 to the game particularly, it dosn't add flavour to the collage, it = dosn't=20 even give much more of a reason to purchase ward.
Yes, it DOES add = flavour.
The point of = wards is that=20 they add tension to the game. If you know that you're always going = to=20 survive against them, or not suffer too badly, then it's hard to = invest much=20 tension when players are dealing with them. Yes, there are lots of = ways of=20 using wards, and no, I really don't need lessons in working out what = they=20 are. What I am saying is that a Fire mage should reasonably be able = to=20 inflict serious harm to people that come into contact with their = wards.=20
At the moment, they just make them a little tired. = They=20 might make some of their equipment burn, I suppose, but I've never = seen that=20 happen.
And, frankly, it's irrelevant whether or not you = think a=20 player would or would not buy Ward so that they can store = Dragonflames. It=20 is important that NPCs be able to do so. If for no other reason than = that it=20 provides another avenue by which to warn players that they are = coming up=20 against someone with significant Ranks in = Dragonflames.
As the DM, you can choose whether or not you're = going to=20 place Dragonflames as a Ward, after all.
Jim
; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 12:12:16 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p220-tnt2.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.245.220]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id MAA11306 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 12:10:31 +1200 Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 12:03:20 +1200 Message-ID: <01bfe15d$6f5f7c00$dcf56dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_002B_01BFE1C2.04945C00" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Astrologer is stuffed From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002B_01BFE1C2.04945C00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You shouldn't be able to ever change your answers if you don't like = them.=20 =20 I remember a party where Bart Toadswart, and One were on the same = party, and used their Astrology skill on me with malice aforethought. = Between them, they had six of the bloody things, and I had to write half = a dozen things.=20 =20 It took ages to write the frigging things, and then when they got = them, they decided that they'd change them all, so that they'd be = favourable. =20 I just told them that their die roll failed, and conspicuously did = not roll any dice. =20 Jim =20 ------=_NextPart_000_002B_01BFE1C2.04945C00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Astrologer is = stuffed ------=_NextPart_000_002B_01BFE1C2.04945C00-- -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Jun 29 12:17:22 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id MAA25961; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 12:08:43 +1200 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id MAA25958 forYou shouldn't be able = to ever=20 change your answers if you don't like them.
I remember a party where Bart = Toadswart, and=20 One were on the same party, and used their Astrology skill on me = with malice=20 aforethought. Between them, they had six of the bloody things, and I = had to=20 write half a dozen things.
It took ages to write the frigging = things, and=20 then when they got them, they decided that they'd change them all, = so that=20 they'd be favourable.
I just told them that their die = roll failed,=20 and conspicuously did not roll any dice.
Jim
; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 12:08:40 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p220-tnt2.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.245.220]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id MAA10836 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 12:06:53 +1200 Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 11:59:42 +1200 Message-ID: <01bfe15c$edc33f60$dcf56dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001E_01BFE1C1.82F81F60" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Astrologer is stuffed From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01BFE1C1.82F81F60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Andrew Withy wrote: =20 The general reading and specific reading *concepts* seem fine - that = you can just ask "tell me about the problem", or "what is the answer to = this fragment of the problem" =20 I think that the numbers should be lower, and relate to the accuracy = of the astrology reading. Fore example, when I had Rank 0 Astrologer = (and no greater), I was at 90%+Rank for most of my BCs. This doesn't = give much reason to rank it. I'd be happier with general questions being = 2 x PC + 6/Rank, and specific questions being PC + 8/Rank or similar = numbers. =20 You shouldn't be able to ever change your answers if you don't like = them.=20 =20 Perhaps there should be a translation ability where astrologers will = get hints what astrology readings might mean or pertain to. =20 =20 =20 I suppose the first thing we should address with Astrologer that we = should address directly is what predictions and prophecies are used for. = =20 Derek Tomes once said in my hearing that a good prophecy is one = where all of the elements are true, but that you would never guess what = was going to happen when you first come across them. =20 Ultimately, prophecies and predictions are a tool of foreshadowing, = and foreshadowing does only one thing in an ideal world. It identifies = an element of the story as being significant, at the moment of climax. =20 In other words, it does not provide information at any point, it = merely adds story weight to an event or situation. This doesn't mean = that a prophecy doesn't have to include information, but that the = important information of the story won't be available to the players, = until the moment when it will provide the most dramatic impact. =20 You might, therefore, say that '...there is an evil in the Gorleant = Hills that must be cleansed', and that is simple information. =20 Then you might say that '...one among you will pass from this vale = of woe', and that could mean someone's going to die, or maybe move to = the next valley, where there's no woe, or whatever. That is = foreshadowing, and its meaning oughtn't to be revealed until some = dramatic climax is revealed.=20 =20 The best analogy I can think of is a joke.=20 =20 When someone tells you a joke, they set up a situation that you = expect, and when you reach the climax of the joke, you are led to what = you think is the only logical conclusion, and that such a conclusion is = as inevitable as day follows night. =20 The punchline of the joke, though, takes the rug out from under your = feet, because it offers a completely new way of looking at the = situation. =20 In the same way, foreshadowing and prophecies should lead players to = expect a sound, logical conclusion, but they should also provide a = sound, logical alternative conclusion, and that this conclusion is more = congruent with the rest of the story elements than the one they expect. = And, the real conclusion should, in an ideal world, be at odds with the = expected conclusion, as well. =20 Jim =20 =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01BFE1C1.82F81F60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Astrologer is = stuffed ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01BFE1C1.82F81F60-- -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Jun 29 14:44:18 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id OAA26949; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 14:37:45 +1200 Received: from mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (mailhost.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.1.4]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id OAA26946 forAndrew Withy = wrote:
The general reading = and specific=20 reading *concepts* seem fine - that you can just ask "tell me = about the=20 problem", or "what is the answer to this fragment of the=20 problem"
I think that the = numbers should be=20 lower, and relate to the accuracy of the astrology reading. Fore = example,=20 when I had Rank 0 Astrologer (and no greater), I was at 90%+Rank for = most of=20 my BCs. This doesn't give much reason to rank it. I'd be happier = with=20 general questions being 2 x PC + 6/Rank, and specific questions = being PC +=20 8/Rank or similar numbers.
You shouldn't be able = to ever=20 change your answers if you don't like them.
Perhaps there should = be a=20 translation ability where astrologers will get hints what astrology = readings=20 might mean or pertain to.
I suppose the first thing we should address with = Astrologer=20 that we should address directly is what predictions and prophecies = are used=20 for.
Derek Tomes once said in my hearing that a good = prophecy is=20 one where all of the elements are true, but that you would never = guess what=20 was going to happen when you first come across them.
Ultimately, prophecies and predictions are a tool = of=20 foreshadowing, and foreshadowing does only one thing in an ideal = world. It=20 identifies an element of the story as being significant, at the = moment of=20 climax.
In other words, it does not provide information at = any=20 point, it merely adds story weight to an event or situation. This = doesn't=20 mean that a prophecy doesn't have to include information, but that = the=20 important information of the story won't be available to the = players, until=20 the moment when it will provide the most dramatic impact.
You might, therefore, say that '...there is an = evil in the=20 Gorleant Hills that must be cleansed', and that is simple=20 information.
Then you might say that '...one among you will = pass from=20 this vale of woe', and that could mean someone's going to die, or = maybe move=20 to the next valley, where there's no woe, or whatever. That is=20 foreshadowing, and its meaning oughtn't to be revealed until some = dramatic=20 climax is revealed.
The best analogy I can think of is a joke. =
When someone tells you a joke, they set up a = situation that=20 you expect, and when you reach the climax of the joke, you are led = to what=20 you think is the only logical conclusion, and that such a conclusion = is as=20 inevitable as day follows night.
The punchline of the joke, though, takes the rug = out from=20 under your feet, because it offers a completely new way of looking = at the=20 situation.
In the same way, foreshadowing and prophecies = should lead=20 players to expect a sound, logical conclusion, but they should also = provide=20 a sound, logical alternative conclusion, and that this conclusion is = more=20 congruent with the rest of the story elements than the one they = expect. And,=20 the real conclusion should, in an ideal world, be at odds with the = expected=20 conclusion, as well.
Jim
; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 14:37:37 +1200 Received: from sci4 (lbr-122-42.lbrsc.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.122.42]) by mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (8.9.2/8.9.2/8.9.2-ua) with SMTP id OAA12881 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 14:35:43 +1200 (NZST) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 14:34:33 +1200 Message-ID: <000f01bfe172$8f475000$2a7ad882@sci4> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Subject: FW: Astrologer is stuffed From: "Michael Parkinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Jim said: > I suppose the first thing we should address with Astrologer that we should address > directly is what predictions and prophecies are used for. This is a key point. Frankly, I view astrology readings primarily as a device for the GM: to set the atmosphere, to highlight hooks or hints for the players. It is also, to a lesser extent, a tool for PCs since a party can gain great advantages if they ask the right question(s) -- and it's a way for the GM to show approval to a party for thinking. The reading are perhaps of three sorts: 1) the inscrutable e.g., "'til Burnham wood come to Dunsinane" which make no sense until a crucial part of the story later one. This is still of use to the party because they can realise that they are on the right track (or at least an interesting one). It can also prompt the party to reflect regularly on the situation. 2) the clear but inevitable e.g. "Beware the Ides of March" which adds to the tension. There's nothing much the players can do to avoid it, just to more ready for the disaster when it does happen. 3) Of course the most dramatic ones are, as Jim points out, are the clear one which are differently interpreted, depending on one's point of view -- in particularly before & after the event: > In the same way, foreshadowing and prophecies should lead players to expect a sound, logical > conclusion, but they should also provide a sound, logical alternative conclusion, and that this > conclusion is more congruent with the rest of the story elements than the one they > expect. And, the > real conclusion should, in an ideal world, be at odds with the expected conclusion, as well. an "historical" example would be: "If Croesus goes to war with Cyrus, he will destroy a mighty kingdom." Michael -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Jun 29 14:59:33 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id OAA27034; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 14:47:26 +1200 Received: from kcbbs.gen.nz (kcbbs.gen.nz [202.14.102.1]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id OAA27031 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 14:47:24 +1200 Received: from bear (c3640-as06.kcbbs.gen.nz [202.14.102.126]) by kcbbs.gen.nz (8.9.3/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA06888 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 14:43:53 +1200 (NZST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000629144443.00856940@kcbbs.gen.nz> X-Sender: salient@kcbbs.gen.nz X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 14:44:43 +1200 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: Astrologer is stuffed From: Sally Jackson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz At 17:39 28/06/00 +1200, Michael wrote: >Dear All, > >I'd like to start a discussion of what we want the Astrology skill to do. Yes, I would agree that it is "stuffed", as my impression of the way it is played doesn't tally with the rules as written. The way I see it working now, follows along the lines of Jim's post, that astrology readings are tools of foreshadowing; Also, I think that in some instances they are used more specifically, to give the party direction to go in, when they are given such a wide employment brief, such as "protect this person", which can leave the party floundering a bit. That readings given to the party are puzzles to be figured out, which in a way takes them out of the realm of the characters, to the realm of the players. [Previously, I have a character who has no faith in astrology readings, however I felt that the mission sucess depending on nutting out some meaning from them, and since I had time to think about them between sessions, I did.] I think this is a dis-incentive to ranking the skill. ie A high rank astrologer doesn't seem to be given a clearer reading to interpret. When it becomes obvious, that the party is missing the point of the reading (or is it just Michael Parkinsons') I think it could be better if the character with (high?) ranks in astrologer, could have the option of clarifying thier reading, spending more time studying their answer so to speak, so that the GM could give the player hints of how to go about tackling the reading. Is Astrologer skill limited to reading the night sky as the source of it's divinatory powers? I've had other sources like tarot, books, entrails, used on adventure for this purpose. How about a change in name, (Just for the sake of it, or course) to Soothsaying, and give these different methods as legit options for NPC/PC variation in development/style. I've personally not done much reading on these other forms, do they open up other realms of knowledge seeking, other than phrophecy and aspect reading, than could be incorporated into the game? Regards, Sally -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Jun 29 15:58:57 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id PAA27499; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 15:43:44 +1200 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (smtp2.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.8]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id PAA27496 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 15:43:40 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p95-tnt8.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.138.95]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id PAA10168 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 15:41:50 +1200 Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 15:34:38 +1200 Message-ID: <01bfe17a$f426b3a0$5f8a6dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Astrologer is stuffed From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz >Also, I think that in some instances they are used more specifically, to >give the party direction to go in, when they are given such a wide >employment brief, such as "protect this person", which can leave the party >floundering a bit. > >That readings given to the party are puzzles to be figured out, which in a >way takes them out of the realm of the characters, to the realm of the >players. [Previously, I have a character who has no faith in astrology >readings, however I felt that the mission sucess depending on nutting out >some meaning from them, and since I had time to think about them between >sessions, I did.] >I think this is a dis-incentive to ranking the skill. ie A high rank >astrologer doesn't seem to be given a clearer reading to interpret. It is fine to involve the players in the conflicts of their characters. It makes for a truer form of roleplaying. It engages the attention of the players, and makes them more part of the story that unfolds. Why, in God's name would you want to take the puzzle part out of the game. It seems to me, and I could have misread this post, that the point here is that the player chooses to make an Astrology reading, but then isn't happy in taking part in the product of that action. If the player weren't keen, then why would they have done it? I mean, there's no way in Hell that I'm going to reveal the nature of my story to players on the say so of a bit of paper in a book somewhere, and I don't give a rat's arse what the rules say. It just isn't going to happen. >When it becomes obvious, that the party is missing the point of the reading >(or is it just Michael Parkinsons') I think it could be better if the >character with (high?) ranks in astrologer, could have the option of >clarifying thier reading, spending more time studying their answer so to >speak, so that the GM could give the player hints of how to go about >tackling the reading. Maybe the DM could. Maybe the players should just leave it alone and move along a different path. The skill doesn't have to provide information in exclusion to other actions on the part of players. What skills like Astrology should not do is provide the only access to a story. It is simply a foreshadowing tool, or, I suppose, a clue generator when the party seem to have lost the plot a little. Nothing should replace ingenuity on the part of the players. That just breeds a situation where the only thing that happens is you compare skill values and stats, and then decide what the result will be...Which is pretty dull, really. >Is Astrologer skill limited to reading the night sky as the source of it's >divinatory powers? I've had other sources like tarot, books, entrails, >used on adventure for this purpose. How about a change in name, (Just for >the sake of it, or course) to Soothsaying, and give these different methods >as legit options for NPC/PC variation in development/style. It says you can use any divinatory means you like. If you want to read tarot cards, feel free, I would have said. Although, if you are going to be reading the fates in the entrails of members of your own race, I suppose the Duke may have something to say about it if you practice it in the middle of Seagate. >I've personally not done much reading on these other forms, do they open up >other realms of knowledge seeking, other than phrophecy and aspect reading, >than could be incorporated into the game? Who can say. It's a big, roleplaying universe out there, that needn't be bounded by what is said in a book somewhere. Jim -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Jun 29 16:58:51 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id QAA27955; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 16:49:49 +1200 Received: from mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (mailhost.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.1.4]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id QAA27952 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 16:49:40 +1200 Received: from sci4 (lbr-122-42.lbrsc.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.122.42]) by mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (8.9.2/8.9.2/8.9.2-ua) with SMTP id QAA06238 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 16:47:44 +1200 (NZST) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 16:46:34 +1200 Message-ID: <000a01bfe185$00bc3ea0$2a7ad882@sci4> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Subject: RE: Astrologer is stuffed From: "Michael Parkinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > I think this is a dis-incentive to ranking the skill. ie A high rank > astrologer doesn't seem to be given a clearer reading to interpret. > > When it becomes obvious, that the party is missing the point of the reading > (or is it just Michael Parkinsons') I think it could be better if the > character with (high?) ranks in astrologer, could have the option of > clarifying their reading, spending more time studying their answer so to > speak, so that the GM could give the player hints of how to go about > tackling the reading. This is a good point. I would be loathe to have a high ranked astrologer be given something in "plain English," but it would be reasonable for them -- particularly once they had observed at least part of the situation -- to get a *vague* impression of how valid their interpretation was [absolutely NOT a precise estimate, something on the order of "predict weather"]. NB "Valid" does not of course mean "correct." It would be a pity if the GM, having given something cunningly amphibolic, were forced to explain which of several valid interpretations was the actual case. The other option would be to junk the existing rule that no more than one reading can be made for a particular question. Given a Previous reading, perhaps the number of ancillary readings could be rank related [1 / 2 ranks or some such]. > Is Astrologer skill limited to reading the night sky as the source of it's > divinatory powers? I've had other sources like tarot, books, entrails, > used on adventure for this purpose. How about a change in name, (Just for > the sake of it, or course) to Soothsaying, and give these different methods > as legit options for NPC/PC variation in development/style. There are two forms which would seem to be relevant. "Divination" (Not in the Namer ritual sense) which involves observing something (the behaviour of birds, the state of entrails, the positions of celestial bodies) and reaching a conclusion. This may involve a few simple rules easily applied -- e.g., which side did they fly on & was it an unlucky number [Augury]; or require a vast knowledge of many principles and the ability to judge how such influence interact [Astrology] "Prophecy" where the prophet is overcome by a spirit / god / trance-like-state, often induced by or associated with physical activity &/or ordained ritual. The prophecy may be simplistic (e.g., in gyromancy, did the practitioner fall into or out of the circle) or sophisticated (e.g. an entranced oracle spouting verses). Not that both these practices may be considered sooth-saying, depending upon the culture. Whilst Astrology (star-gazing specifically) would represent a major, powerful, but very abstract divinatory technique, it does NOT represent the sense of prophesy we more normally experience in "astrology" [sic] readings. Hence I endorse the suggested name change (other alternatives would be Seer, Mystic, Fortune-teller, etc) > I've personally not done much reading on these other forms, do they open up > other realms of knowledge seeking, other than prophecy and aspect reading, > than could be incorporated into the game? Good point. -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Jun 29 17:13:56 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id RAA28105; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 17:11:31 +1200 Received: from mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (mailhost.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.1.4]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id RAA28102 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 17:11:28 +1200 Received: from sci4 (lbr-122-42.lbrsc.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.122.42]) by mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (8.9.2/8.9.2/8.9.2-ua) with SMTP id RAA09322 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 17:09:36 +1200 (NZST) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 17:08:26 +1200 Message-ID: <000b01bfe188$0eacc9f0$2a7ad882@sci4> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Subject: RE: Astrologer is stuffed From: "Michael Parkinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Jim said > Nothing should replace ingenuity on the part of the players. Absolutely! This should be a key matter of style which an redraft of the "skill" must bear in mind. Somethings it doesn't matter whether the players get an absolute answer to [e.g. Star sign; whether they will be betrayed; etc] > >Is Astrologer skill limited to reading the night sky as the source of it's > >divinatory powers? I've had other sources like tarot, books, entrails, > >used on adventure for this purpose. How about a change in name, (Just for > >the sake of it, or course) to Soothsaying, and give these different methods > >as legit options for NPC/PC variation in development/style. > > It says you can use any divinatory means you like. If you want to read > tarot cards, feel free, I would have said. Although, if you are going to be > reading the fates in the entrails of members of your own race, I suppose the > Duke may have something to say about it if you practice it in the middle of > Seagate. Indeed. In these enlightened times, I believe that MMHS no longer tortures its free citizens [it merely obliges them to participate in certain prognostic or divinatory rituals]. Different techniques would have different results: e.g. a "vision" of a suspended sword; a poem; a warning against accidental reversals in business; knowledge that one is under a cloud of misfortune; etc. Naturally, the technique employed should also bear in mind what the _GM_ is prepared to tell the players. As a GM, there are times when the "ritual of reading the night sky" or a "precognition" has been awkward because the *type* of imformation it shoulc give the player was something I was not willing to supply. -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Jun 29 19:28:34 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id TAA29088; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 19:22:04 +1200 Received: from smtp4.ihug.co.nz (smtp4.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.5]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id TAA29084 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 19:22:00 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p203-tnt1.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.111.203]) by smtp4.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id TAA11839 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 19:21:56 +1200 Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 19:14:49 +1200 Message-ID: <01bfe199$b65da6e0$cb6f12ce@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Astrologer is stuffed From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Perhaps it is time to review what we want from Astrology. Later revisions can always be done, but I think that we have determined some valuable points worth considering. 1) Astrology should provide foreshadowing, and perhaps a direction in which players might move. 2) The players should not be able to deny the current prophecy and try again, thus requiring the DM to produce a new prophecy. 3) At higher Ranks, an Astrologer might acquire some insight into the workings of their prophecy, as they move through it. 4) That other divinatory techniques might be applied than simply looking at the stars, and that perhaps the name might change to reflect this. Have I missed anything? Jim -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Jun 29 20:13:31 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id TAA29333; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 19:58:42 +1200 Received: from mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (mailhost.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.1.4]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id TAA29330 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 19:58:39 +1200 Received: from sci4 (lbr-122-42.lbrsc.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.122.42]) by mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (8.9.2/8.9.2/8.9.2-ua) with SMTP id TAA20879 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 19:58:36 +1200 (NZST) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 19:57:25 +1200 Message-ID: <000201bfe19f$a9b081f0$2a7ad882@sci4> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Subject: RE: Astrologer is stuffed From: "Michael Parkinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Perhaps it is time to review what we want from Astrology. Later revisions > can always be done, but I think that we have determined some valuable points > worth considering. Agreed. Since the skill as written doesn't work in almost every aspect -- it should be written anew > 1) Astrology should provide foreshadowing, and perhaps a direction in which > players might move. > 2) The players should not be able to deny the current prophecy and try > again, thus requiring the DM to produce a new prophecy. > 3) At higher Ranks, an Astrologer might acquire some insight into the > workings of their prophecy, as they move through it. > 4) That other divinatory techniques might be applied than simply looking at > the stars, and that perhaps the name might change to reflect this. > > Have I missed anything? I would agree with all these. The only addition -- crucial to any undertaking during the classical, dark, middle & Reagan ages -- would be: 5) The attempted identification of "lucky" & "unlucky days." [Interpreted in game mechanics, perhaps, as days with modifiers to dice rolls of 1 or 2 %, like a longer but weaker version of seasonal aspects. Or whatever] We may as well retain the idea (but *not* the numbers) of the existing ability to 6) Identification of the Aspect of a being. and perhaps some extend it to include related or similar *weak* identification of magical &/or doom/curse-like effects present on a being -- the stories of gypsies recognising were-wolves by marks on their hands; prophets or wise-women recognising royalty in disguise or unaware of their state; etc -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Jun 29 20:43:38 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id UAA29631; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 20:37:57 +1200 Received: from smtp4.ihug.co.nz (smtp4.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.5]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id UAA29628 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 20:37:54 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p256-tnt6.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.136.2]) by smtp4.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id UAA18286 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 20:37:48 +1200 Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 20:30:42 +1200 Message-ID: <01bfe1a4$502129a0$cb6f12ce@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Astrologer is stuffed From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > >and perhaps some extend it to include related or similar *weak* identification of magical &/or >doom/curse-like effects present on a being -- the stories of gypsies recognising were-wolves by >marks on their hands; prophets or wise-women recognising royalty in disguise or unaware of their >state; etc I like that they could detect the effect of curses, dooms, fates, etc. Why don't we make it a wider ability. Magic that concerns itself with fate doesn't really make itself known in the game as it currently stands, except as far as curses are concerned, and it would be kind of nice if it existed somewhere. Why don't we make that the core of a revised Astrology skill. Perhaps they could even have some skill at manipulating dooms and fates. Sounds pretty funky, I reckon. -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Jun 29 20:46:34 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id UAA29576; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 20:31:15 +1200 Received: from smtp4.ihug.co.nz (smtp4.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.5]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id UAA29573 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 20:31:12 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p203-tnt1.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.111.203]) by smtp4.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id UAA17572 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 20:31:06 +1200 Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 20:24:00 +1200 Message-ID: <01bfe1a3$6084d4a0$cb6f12ce@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Astrologer is stuffed From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Michael Parkinson wrote: >I would agree with all these. The only addition -- crucial to any undertaking during the >classical, dark, middle & Reagan ages -- would be: > >5) The attempted identification of "lucky" & "unlucky days." [Interpreted in game mechanics, >perhaps, as days with modifiers to dice rolls of 1 or 2 %, like a longer but weaker version of >seasonal aspects. Or whatever] I'm kind of loath to use numbers to define a auspiciousness. I mean, luck is not really just a penalty or a bonus to a given percentile roll...It's more...Perhaps, how it should work is that the DM can assign a floating of modifier of, say, 5-10 points that he applies to make a roll succeed or fail at a dramatic moment. Once it is used, the moment of luck, ill or beneficial is gone. So, if you are casting at someone on a bad day, and you screw it up royally, then the DM might choose to apply the 5 point bonus, if that would take it into the region of a backfire. On a good day, he might penalise a bad guy by 5 points, if that would mean that they fail their resistance roll.... >We may as well retain the idea (but *not* the numbers) of the existing ability to > >6) Identification of the Aspect of a being. > >and perhaps some extend it to include related or similar *weak* identification of magical &/or >doom/curse-like effects present on a being -- the stories of gypsies recognising were-wolves by >marks on their hands; prophets or wise-women recognising royalty in disguise or unaware of their >state; etc I don't really care one way or another if players can determine the aspects of my NPCs, or their own, or their companions...It's pretty minor whatever happens. Yeah, sure. But, I really like the idea of an Astrologer being able to detect people by their dooms...That would have mean beating a path to the orrery, let me tell you... Of course, at this stage, I have no bloody idea what it does...Sounds damned cool, though -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Jun 29 21:13:40 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id VAA29857; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 21:06:21 +1200 Received: from mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (mailhost.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.1.4]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id VAA29853 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 21:06:16 +1200 Received: from sci4 (lbr-122-42.lbrsc.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.122.42]) by mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (8.9.2/8.9.2/8.9.2-ua) with SMTP id VAA24039 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 21:06:11 +1200 (NZST) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 21:05:00 +1200 Message-ID: <000301bfe1a9$1ac27f20$2a7ad882@sci4> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Subject: RE: Astrologer is stuffed From: "Michael Parkinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > I'm kind of loath to use numbers to define a auspiciousness. I mean, > luck is not really just a penalty or a bonus to a given percentile > roll...It's more... Yes, it is awkward. I have a vague sense of the feel I want, I just don't know how it should be done -- Not as in C&S has it, where you visit the Fortune-teller & randomly get +5 or -5 on BCs for the entire adventure. Something that encourages more peasant/townsfolk superstition. Anyway -- that's details. Its the idea that's important. -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Jun 29 21:28:31 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id VAA29983; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 21:18:18 +1200 Received: from mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (mailhost.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.1.4]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id VAA29980 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 21:18:14 +1200 Received: from sci4 (lbr-122-42.lbrsc.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.122.42]) by mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (8.9.2/8.9.2/8.9.2-ua) with SMTP id VAA24494 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 21:18:09 +1200 (NZST) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 21:16:58 +1200 Message-ID: <000401bfe1aa$c6f491b0$2a7ad882@sci4> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Subject: RE: Astrologer is stuffed From: "Michael Parkinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > >and perhaps some extend it to include related or similar *weak* > identification of magical &/or > >doom/curse-like effects present on a being -- the stories of gypsies > recognising were-wolves by > >marks on their hands; prophets or wise-women recognising royalty in > disguise or unaware of their > >state; etc > > > I like that they could detect the effect of curses, dooms, > fates, etc. Why > don't we make it a wider ability. Magic that concerns itself with fate > doesn't really make itself known in the game as it currently > stands, except > as far as curses are concerned, and it would be kind of nice if > it existed > somewhere. > Why don't we make that the core of a revised Astrology skill. > Perhaps they > could even have some skill at manipulating dooms and fates. Sounds pretty > funky, I reckon. I hadn't thought of that: I like it it give a wide spectrum. From the witch who sees omens in everything & the [almost] charletan who averts ill-luck & wealth from the credulous, to the Wizard-like figure in robes & staff who distains mere magical colleges because he deals with the pure stuff of Fate & Doom. (Yet still has time to pop out with a couple of mates to visit likely prospects in foreign cities) Michael -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Jun 29 22:43:43 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id WAA30476; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 22:36:31 +1200 Received: from qedweb.qed.co.nz ([203.97.23.140] (may be forged)) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id WAA30473 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 22:36:27 +1200 Received: by localhost with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 22:35:03 +1200 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 22:35:03 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain Subject: Astrology - Getting into details From: Stephen Martin To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz I like the idea of a structure to the skill like many of the others in DQ. Astrology (or whatever it'll be called) is divided into styles, each style is able to achieve different results. An Astrologer is initially taught one style by their master, great astrologers have been known to master 3 or even 4 different styles (1 at Rk0, +1 at ranks 5, 8, 9, and 10). The greatest divinations are achieved by combining multiple styles in one reading. Styles: Astrology: Reading the night sky. - Abilities: Forecast significant times or events. If details of the sky a person was born under are known then some correlation between them and the times and events may be determined. Tarot, Rune Sticks/Stones: Interpreting the seemingly random pattern of their tools. - Abilties: Gain insight into the past, present, and future of a person who is involved in the reading. ??: Reading the entrails of recently slaughtered creatures - usually animals. - Abilities: May determine things about people and environments that the animal has interacted with. E.g. the state of the land the animal lived in and how likely crops are to succeed, or whether hunting will be fruitful. Or the health (or cause of ill-health) of someone may be determined by reading the entrails of their favourite pet or horse. Where healers are limited to an entities physical well being an Astrologer can usually divine the malign effects of Dooms and curses. "Nature Gazing": Looking for visions in the natural elements of the world (Fire, Water, Clouds...) - Abilities: Visions of events or people associated with the element and the astrologer may be seen by studying natural elements. Most astrologers will have an element that they prefer to work with. The visions are usually accurate but rarely are of the desired subject at the desired time. Trance: Through meditation, deprivation, drugs, etc the astrology enters a trance where they see visions, hear vioces. Usually collapse during the vision or speak what they see/hear or sometime both. - Abilities: Gain powerful but frequently obscure visions of the future or of people/places/events at great distance. "Body Reading": Examine the eyes, skull, or other body parts to divine information about somebody. - Abilities: Similar to entrail reading wrt people but it requires the person to be present. Not as detailed as entrails but some information can be gained simply from observing someone for a while. Commune with Spirits: Commune with the spirits of the dead through trance, ritual, and/or possession. - Abilties: To ask questions of the dead, the more questions and less sympathetic the dead, the more dangerous it is... ... I'm sure that there are many more styles and names for most of them, but this should give you some idea of what I was thinking. Cheers, Stephen. > -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Jun 29 23:13:31 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id XAA30670; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 23:08:38 +1200 Received: from smtp4.ihug.co.nz (smtp4.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.5]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id XAA30667 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 23:08:34 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p295-tnt6.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.136.41]) by smtp4.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id XAA01533 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 23:08:25 +1200 Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 23:01:04 +1200 Message-ID: <01bfe1b9$51d3d620$29886dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Astrology - Getting into details From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Stephen Martin wrote: >I like the idea of a structure to the skill like many of the others in DQ. > >Astrology (or whatever it'll be called) is divided into styles, each style >is able to achieve different results. An Astrologer is initially taught one >style by their master, great astrologers have been known to master 3 or even >4 different styles (1 at Rk0, +1 at ranks 5, 8, 9, and 10). The greatest >divinations are achieved by combining multiple styles in one reading. > >Styles: etc., etc., etc... >... I'm sure that there are many more styles and names for most of them, but >this should give you some idea of what I was thinking. > The problem, as I see it, with a format like this, is that it is actually narrowing for a player. So many options are covered by the rule, that the player has little to bring to the game, other than making a choice and spending xp. It is better to let the player make the choice on what things they want to develop in their character, so long as they don't directly impact on the nature of the game. So, yes, maybe it would be nice to have styles of prophecy that differ in the way you've set out. But, there's no particular reason to establish them inside the skill at particular Ranks. All that is doing is saying to a player 'you can do x, but you can't do y'. And, in addition, by splitting up the skill in this fashion, you force the character to develop other kinds of prophetic art just so that they can get the most bang for the xp buck. In addition, it narrows the focus of the skill to a point that is so specific, that it loses much of the wonder of the kind of nebulous ravings of people who deal with forces beyond the wit of mortal men. And, ultimately, the question is 'What do we want Astrologers to be able to do?' What you have suggested answers a different question, which is 'What way do Astrologers do what they do?' And, frankly, I don't care that much. I'd leave it in the hands of players to come up with something special and individual. Jim -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Jun 30 09:58:32 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id JAA01541; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 09:44:37 +1200 Received: from defacto.peace.co.nz (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id JAA01538 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 09:44:33 +1200 Message-ID: <395BBEA5.94BA5FF6@peace.com> Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 09:24:53 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Skill Structure [was Re: Astrology - Getting into details] From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Stephen Martin wrote: >4 different styles (1 at Rk0, +1 at ranks 5, 8, 9, and 10). The greatest >divinations are achieved by combining multiple styles in one reading. Jim Arona wrote: > The problem, as I see it, with a format like this, is that it is actually > narrowing for a player. [snip] > And, in addition, by splitting up > the skill in this fashion, you force the character to develop other kinds of > prophetic art just so that they can get the most bang for the xp buck. Tangential to Astrologer; this general discussion has come up before, and I believe both sides have merit. Most of the original DQ skills were/are very broad and nebulous and there was little to differentiate (for example) two Rank 5 Astrologers. On the other hand, two Rank 5 Troubadours may have had little in common. At times, the collective GM opinion has tended towards preferring the Troub model as it help differentiate character skills and often means that a lower ranked character is not fully over-shadowed in ability by a higher ranked one in the same party -- our parties being more random collections of character abilities and not of the usual "crafted" variety in RPG campaigns, where new PCs tend to be chosen to fit with the existing ones. However, as Jim rightly points out, one of the problems with the Troub model is a game/EP pressure is put on players to pick up areas that are outside the primary focus/original conception of the character. The current choice in models is either "broad" (all areas at all ranks, gaining skill at each rank), or "narrow, broadening with rank", (few areas initially, gaining more with rank). For Astrologer (to head back in the direction of the original topic), this means either gaining all Astro abilities (and being able to choose for character reasons to only do entrail readings), or gaining entrail readings at low rank and then being pressured into taking other divinatory areas as skill increases. On an abstract level, you either get a rainbow coloured "block" at each rank, or at one rank you get to choose a blue block, at the next a red block and so on. One possible solution is a synthesis of approach; allowing "narrow" to become "deep" rather than "broad" with rank. (Choose a blue block, next rank choose another blue block, etc. End result: only blue blocks, but lots of them). This avoids forcing players to pick up areas they feel their character wouldn't learn, but also provides for the least overlap in character skills within a party mix. Two PCs could have similar rank with the same skill and yet be dedicated specialists in different areas. A character could also mix broad and deep to get a balance of generalist and specialist (blue, red, blue, white, blue, green, etc.). I'm not sure how we could best offer "narrow but deep" skills within DQ but it would (at least on paper) appear some benefits. Comments? Possible benefits/problems/undesirable effects? Cheers, Martin -- _/_/ Peace Software New Zealand Ltd Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com _/ Martin Dickson Fax : +64-9-373-0401 Analyst Phone: +64-9-373-0400 -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Jun 30 10:13:33 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id KAA01720; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 10:12:17 +1200 Received: from qedweb.qed.co.nz ([203.97.23.140] (may be forged)) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id KAA01717 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 10:12:13 +1200 Received: by localhost with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 10:10:35 +1200 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 10:10:34 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain Subject: RE: Skill Structure [was Re: Astrology - Getting into details] From: Stephen Martin To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz The current structure for Troubadour offers a solution to the Narrow but deep issue, being able to pick the same skill multiple times and increase effective rank in that skill beyond your general rank. An example of this working reasonably well for a character is Jade, who wants to be an excellent acrobat but has no interest in singing, or entertaining. She is a Rank 4 Troubadour with the abilty to tight-rope walk and swallow fire at Rk 4 ('cos she had to pick three different skills at rank 0) and can perform Acrobatics at Rk 8. > -----Original Message----- > From: Martin Dickson [SMTP:martin.dickson@peace.com] > Sent: Friday, 30 June 2000 09:25 > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Subject: Skill Structure [was Re: Astrology - Getting into details] > > I'm not sure how we could best offer "narrow but deep" skills within DQ > but it > would (at least on paper) appear some benefits. > > Comments? Possible benefits/problems/undesirable effects? > > Cheers, > Martin > > -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Jun 30 10:43:51 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id KAA01919; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 10:42:36 +1200 Received: from mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (mailhost.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.1.4]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id KAA01916 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 10:42:30 +1200 Received: from sci4 (lbr-122-42.lbrsc.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.122.42]) by mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (8.9.2/8.9.2/8.9.2-ua) with SMTP id KAA22426 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 10:42:04 +1200 (NZST) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 10:40:52 +1200 Message-ID: <000001bfe21b$149819d0$2a7ad882@sci4> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Subject: RE: Skill Structure [was Re: Astrology - Getting into details] From: "Michael Parkinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of > Martin Dickson > Sent: Friday, 30 June 2000 09:25 > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Subject: Skill Structure [was Re: Astrology - Getting into details] > > Stephen Martin wrote: > > >4 different styles (1 at Rk0, +1 at ranks 5, 8, 9, and 10). > The greatest > >divinations are achieved by combining multiple styles in one reading. > > Jim Arona wrote: > > > The problem, as I see it, with a format like this, is that it > is actually > > narrowing for a player. [...] Actually, with troubador, we do have a mechanism whereby, for the same xp impulse, the PC can have narrow but strong skills, or broad but weaker skills. Namely re-selecting the same choice -- as discussed below by Martin. However, having said that, I suspect that may not be the right model (although the fact that it is available for Troubador & courtier may argue for it). The other alternative would be "picking-up" extra fields at a certain e.p. cost but probably with a restriction on the number of fields permissible. I do think it is important that the PC be able to choose their technique and that not all techniques will give answers. Many classic divinatory or prophecy techniques are analogous to flipping a coin which is in tune with the cosmos -- with the results of Yes, No, & Did anyone see where it rolled to? > Most of the original DQ skills were/are very broad and nebulous > and there was > little to differentiate (for example) two Rank 5 Astrologers. > On the other > hand, two Rank 5 Troubadours may have had little in common. Indeed -- Likewise Beastmasters, courtiers, etc. But any two Rank 5 Healers are interchangeable -- only their base chances & reservoirs of fatigue differentiate them. Given the quirkiness or flavour of the many different forms of fortune-telling (especially those inflicted on the party by GMs), I think we do want to have a system that provides several way of answering a particular problem, probably of varying efficacy or effort. I like Martin's block method -- perhaps something like a simplified Philosopher set up. When you reach the next rank, choose another Broad Type of practice, or become more refined in "x" specific techniques. > However, as Jim rightly points out, one of the problems with the > Troub model is > a game/EP pressure is put on players to pick up areas that are > outside the > primary focus/original conception of the character. The current > choice in > models is either "broad" (all areas at all ranks, gaining skill > at each rank), > or "narrow, broadening with rank", (few areas initially, gaining > more with > rank). For Astrologer (to head back in the direction of the > original topic), > this means either gaining all Astro abilities (and being able to > choose for > character reasons to only do entrail readings), or gaining > entrail readings at > low rank and then being pressured into taking other divinatory > areas as skill > increases. On an abstract level, you either get a rainbow > coloured "block" at > each rank, or at one rank you get to choose a blue block, at the > next a red > block and so on. > > One possible solution is a synthesis of approach; allowing > "narrow" to become > "deep" rather than "broad" with rank. (Choose a blue block, > next rank choose > another blue block, etc. End result: only blue blocks, but lots > of them). This > avoids forcing players to pick up areas they feel their > character wouldn't > learn, but also provides for the least overlap in character > skills within a > party mix. Two PCs could have similar rank with the same skill > and yet be > dedicated specialists in different areas. A character could > also mix broad and > deep to get a balance of generalist and specialist (blue, red, > blue, white, > blue, green, etc.). > > I'm not sure how we could best offer "narrow but deep" skills > within DQ but it > would (at least on paper) appear some benefits. > > Comments? Possible benefits/problems/undesirable effects? > > Cheers, > Martin > > -- > > _/_/ Peace Software New Zealand Ltd Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com > _/ Martin Dickson Fax : +64-9-373-0401 > Analyst Phone: +64-9-373-0400 > > > > > -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- > -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Jun 30 10:58:58 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id KAA02021; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 10:55:21 +1200 Received: from defacto.peace.co.nz (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id KAA02018 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 10:55:18 +1200 Message-ID: <395BCF38.A777001F@peace.com> Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 10:35:36 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Skill Structure [was Re: Astrology - Getting into details] From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Stephen Martin wrote: > The current structure for Troubadour offers a solution to the Narrow but > deep issue... Yes, but it was done quick and dirty and may not be the best example of the model. > An example of this working reasonably well for a character is Jade ...Rank 4 > Troubadour...can perform Acrobatics at Rk 8. And at Rk 5 can have Acrobatics at Rk10. However, at Rk 6 she is going to have to pick up some other ability or deepen one of the other two she has. Rk 10 remains the cap. -- _/_/ Peace Software New Zealand Ltd Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com _/ Martin Dickson Fax : +64-9-373-0401 Analyst Phone: +64-9-373-0400 -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Jun 30 11:29:07 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id LAA02134; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 11:14:21 +1200 Received: from smtp4.ihug.co.nz (smtp4.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.5]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id LAA02131 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 11:14:18 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p101-tnt8.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.138.101]) by smtp4.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id LAA06248 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 11:13:53 +1200 Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 11:06:23 +1200 Message-ID: <01bfe21e$a5463040$658a6dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Skill Structure [was Re: Astrology - Getting into details] From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Stephen Martin and Martin Dickson have talked, in various posts, about breaking the skill down in different ways, etc. Frankly, I'm not keen. I can see what is being attempted, but I don't see that it achieves very much for the Skill. It may be that it is worth looking at in the future (I don't agree, by the way), but whatever else is happening, it doesn't lead any closer to addressing what happens with Astrologer. Whether or not the skill is broken up into lots of little bits, with bonuses for this, and a special ability to do that, is really kind of irrelevant, until such time as it is decided what direction Astrologer will take. The part of the skill that's being addressed at the moment is the most cosmetic part. We have not, at this point, decided what sort of thing we want the skill to be capable of. That must be our first consideration. Decisions on how it is to be achieved is a much later concern. Having determined what the skill actually can do, we need to work out how we want the numbers to resolve. As far as I can see, discussing this a complete waste of time until the other issues have been dealt with. And, more than simply wasting time, it actually reduces our ability to develop something productive as the issue gets derailed into which format makes for the best choice. Furthermore, if in fact a format is chosen, then it will constrain the variety of different kinds of skill that could be developed. I proprose that we deal with the skill's format at such time as we have something to discuss. Jim -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Jun 30 12:28:56 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id MAA02589; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 12:19:54 +1200 Received: from defacto.peace.co.nz (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id MAA02586 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 12:19:50 +1200 Message-ID: <395BE304.75667C05@peace.com> Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 12:00:04 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Skill Structure [nothing at all to do with Astrology] From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Hi Jim, Jim Arona wrote: > It may be that it is worth looking at in the future (I don't agree, by the > way), but whatever else is > happening, it doesn't lead any closer to addressing what happens with > Astrologer.. Your comments on specialization (in response to Stephen) got me thinking again about other generic ways that we might approach skill structures in DQ other than simply either making them broad or making them narrow. This was not intended as a discussion of Astrologer, hence the change of subject line away from Astrology, and the abstract use of "blocks" rather than actual skill specifics. > We have not, at this point, decided what sort of thing we want the skill to > be capable of. > That must be our first consideration. Decisions on how it is to be achieved > is a much later concern. Absolutely. It is completely pointless to attempt to build a solution until the user requirements are sorted. It does not however make general discussion of solution meta-language irrelevant. Irrespective of which skill we are discussing many of the campaign pressures remain constant (party mixes, longevity, etc). Finding high level structures that would work well within the campaign gives us extra modelling tools to apply to our user requirements -- once we sort out what they are. > I proprose that we deal with the skill's format at such time as we have > something to discuss. Agreed. In the meantime I will happily discuss blue and green skill blocks with whomever feels interested. Those of you expecting this to provide specific answers to Astrologer, listen to Jim. Nothing to see here, move along, move along. Regards, Martin -- _/_/ Peace Software New Zealand Ltd Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com _/ Martin Dickson Fax : +64-9-373-0401 Analyst Phone: +64-9-373-0400 -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Jun 30 13:00:57 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id MAA02885; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 12:49:40 +1200 Received: from defacto.peace.co.nz (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id MAA02881 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 12:49:37 +1200 Message-ID: <395BE9FD.6E53F358@peace.com> Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 12:29:49 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Astrologer is stuffed From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Michael Parkinson wrote: > ...prophets or wise-women recognising royalty in disguise or unaware of their > state; etc Royalty unaware of their state are traditionally recognized by oddly shaped birthmarks. Looking around real world royalty we might also surmise that buck teeth, horsey noses and no chin assist in identification. :) Hmmm... phrenology? -- _/_/ Peace Software New Zealand Ltd Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com _/ Martin Dickson Fax : +64-9-373-0401 Analyst Phone: +64-9-373-0400 -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Jun 30 13:02:59 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id MAA02918; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 12:53:17 +1200 Received: from fep4-orange.clear.net.nz (fep4-orange.clear.net.nz [203.97.32.4]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id MAA02915 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 12:53:11 +1200 Received: from comms.maclean.co.nz (b002-m010-p043.acld.clear.net.nz [203.167.200.107]) by fep4-orange.clear.net.nz (1.5/1.6) with ESMTP id MAA22045; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 12:52:27 +1200 (NZST) Received: by comms.maclean.co.nz with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) id ; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 12:30:58 +1200 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 12:30:56 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) Content-Type: text/plain Subject: RE: Skill Structure [nothing at all to do with Astrology] From: Tom Mason To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Your comments on specialization (in response to Stephen) got me thinking again about other generic ways that we might approach skill structures in DQ other than simply either making them broad or making them narrow. This was not intended as a discussion of Astrologer, hence the change of subject line away from Astrology, and the abstract use of "blocks" rather than actual skill specifics. Can we have a look at the unarmed skill in this new discussion. Tom -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Jun 30 13:04:37 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id MAA02826; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 12:44:41 +1200 Received: from defacto.peace.co.nz (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id MAA02823 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 12:44:38 +1200 Message-ID: <395BE8D2.ADA8F2B8@peace.com> Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 12:24:50 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Astrologer is stuffed From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Jim Arona wrote: > I like that they could detect the effect of curses, dooms, fates, etc ... > Why don't we make that the core of a revised Astrology skill. Perhaps they > could even have some skill at manipulating dooms and fates. Sounds pretty > funky, I reckon. The "Sleeping Beauty" effect. Evil fairy says: "When she is 16 she will prick her finger in a spindle and DIE!". Good fairy says: "Well, I can't get rid of it, but I can modify it... She will not actually die, but will fall into a slumber almost indistinguishable from death until...", etc. Being able to re-interpret and thus modify dooms, fates, etc, does sound well within the purvey of Astrologers, and a desirable ability. I'm just not sure how much the PCs would be able to control it -- as a GM I wouldn't want to see this as an easy way of removing a well earned doom, although it would be reasonable for an Astrologer to perhaps be able to provide information on how the doom could be ameliorated or lifted. -- _/_/ Peace Software New Zealand Ltd Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com _/ Martin Dickson Fax : +64-9-373-0401 Analyst Phone: +64-9-373-0400 -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Jun 30 13:06:24 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id MAA02810; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 12:43:41 +1200 Received: from fclaklmr02.fcl.co.nz ([202.14.23.202] (may be forged)) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id MAA02807 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 12:43:36 +1200 Received: from falaklex00.falum.co.nz (10.8.1.28) by fclaklmr02.fcl.co.nz Friday, June 30, 2000 12:39:32 Message-ID: Received: by falaklex00.fcl.co.nz with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 12:42:42 +1200 Message-ID: <311B3C3DD32FD311B33900805F770A7202261375@falaklex00.fcl.co.nz> Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 12:42:33 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01BFE22C.193C2D00" Subject: RE: Skill Structure [nothing at all to do with Astrology] From: "Andrew Withy (FAL AKL)" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01BFE22C.193C2D00 Content-Type: text/plain Talking of coloured blocks, how high can you stack your coloured blocks? Can you get as many blue blocks in a multi-colour stack as you can in a purely blue stack, albeit more slowly, or should a blue tower br inherently capable of holding more blue blocks (within human limits, of course). To use the conveniently provided example, in the time that many people would have 4 of each of many (?7?) types of blocks, someone has built a tower of 8 jade blocks, with 4 blocks of each of two other colours. Why should they be limited to 10 jade blocks ever? Why do the number of other supporting blocks need to increase whenever more jade blocks are added? Would it be easier to just stack more jade blocks, or would the tower become unstable if other colours weren't added? If we don't want everyone to use the same mix of blocks at each height of the tower, why do we limit specialisation? Should people be able to just buy jade blocks without any other sort of blocks, or should there be a minimum colour mix ratio? Would the cost be reduced if only certain colours were added, or if certain colours were forever banned from the tower? Can people build a series of low-rise dwellings with the same blocks that they could have built their tower with, and if so, is it as "cost-efficient" or should we not worry about efficiency when freedom of expression is now available? Hey Martin, the coloured block metaphor is quite flexible. Supply-chain solutions become sensible ranking business for specialists in certain professions. Andrew > -----Original Message----- > In the meantime I will happily discuss blue and green skill blocks with > whomever feels interested. Those of you expecting this to provide specific > answers to Astrologer, listen to Jim. Nothing to see here, move along, > move > along. > > Regards, > Martin > > ------_=_NextPart_001_01BFE22C.193C2D00 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Skill Structure [nothing at all to do with = Astrology] Talking of coloured = blocks, how high can you stack your coloured blocks? Can you get as = many blue blocks in a multi-colour stack as you can in a purely blue = stack, albeit more slowly, or should a blue tower br inherently capable = of holding more blue blocks (within human limits, of = course).
To use the = conveniently provided example, in the time that many people would have = 4 of each of many (?7?) types of blocks, someone has built a tower of 8 = jade blocks, with 4 blocks of each of two other colours. Why should = they be limited to 10 jade blocks ever? Why do the number of other = supporting blocks need to increase whenever more jade blocks are added? = Would it be easier to just stack more jade blocks, or would the tower = become unstable if other colours weren't added? If we don't want = everyone to use the same mix of blocks at each height of the tower, why = do we limit specialisation? Should people be able to just buy jade = blocks without any other sort of blocks, or should there be a minimum = colour mix ratio? Would the cost be reduced if only certain colours = were added, or if certain colours were forever banned from the tower? = Can people build a series of low-rise dwellings with the same blocks = that they could have built their tower with, and if so, is it as = "cost-efficient" or should we not worry about efficiency when = freedom of expression is now available?
Hey Martin, the = coloured block metaphor is quite flexible. Supply-chain solutions = become sensible ranking business for specialists in certain = professions.
Andrew
------_=_NextPart_001_01BFE22C.193C2D00-- -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Jun 30 13:44:06 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id NAA03352; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 13:40:12 +1200 Received: from defacto.peace.co.nz (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id NAA03349 for
-----Original Message-----
In the meantime I will happily = discuss blue and green skill blocks with
whomever feels interested. Those of = you expecting this to provide specific
answers to Astrologer, listen to = Jim. Nothing to see here, move along, move
along.Regards,
&nb= sp; Martin
; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 13:40:09 +1200 Message-ID: <395BF5D1.AF053728@peace.com> Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 13:20:17 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Skill Structure [nothing at all to do with Astrology] From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tom Mason wrote: > Can we have a look at the unarmed skill in this new discussion. Ummm... no? :) I don't say that to be autocratic... just that the intent is to discuss skill structure at a high level with regards to pressures and outcomes. I agree wholeheartedly with Jim in that there is no point attempting a solution fit until we have decided what the requirements are. Do we know what the requirements for Unarmed are? There will be certain requirements that should remain constant no matter what skill (or other part of the game) we are discussing. Usability is one of these. There are generic requirements created by the form of the campaign -- semi-random character mixes every 3 months, and lots of PCs suggest (at least IMHO) that designing with an eye to character variety is desirable. The longevity of the campaign and the longevity of PCs suggest that depth of ability is desirable (aka "top out syndrome"). If people feel that unarmed combat is an area to examine and perhaps re-work then user requirement analysis is the first step. Some questions that would be worth answering are: What style of unarmed combat do we want? (Boxing, Brawling, Greco-Roman wrestling, Karate) What flavour/genre do we want? (Basically realistic, Martial arts movies, Gemmel novels) How important do we want to make unarmed? (Most important combat skill, used only rarely as a desperate measure) How detailed do we want it? (Precise moves, general intent, narrative) Once these (and other questions) have been answered we can start looking at a functional solution. Cheers, Martin -- _/_/ Peace Software New Zealand Ltd Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com _/ Martin Dickson Fax : +64-9-373-0401 Analyst Phone: +64-9-373-0400 -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Jun 30 14:29:09 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id OAA03687; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 14:26:55 +1200 Received: from mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (mailhost.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.1.4]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id OAA03682 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 14:26:49 +1200 Received: from sci4 (lbr-122-42.lbrsc.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.122.42]) by mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (8.9.2/8.9.2/8.9.2-ua) with SMTP id OAA00013 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 14:26:16 +1200 (NZST) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 14:25:05 +1200 Message-ID: <000301bfe23a$6710fb90$2a7ad882@sci4> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Subject: Meeting? From: "Michael Parkinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Dear All, Are we having a gods Meeting on Sunday (2/7/00) -- or do I get to polish the Returned Wyrm scenario in peace? No agenda has been posted. I believe the only things which are almost proposable are [quick] changes to: *Lesser Efreeti (banishable) *Dragonflames (wardable) please advise ASAP, Michael -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Jun 30 15:13:51 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id PAA03925; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 15:04:19 +1200 Received: from fclaklmr02.fcl.co.nz ([202.14.23.202] (may be forged)) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id PAA03922 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 15:04:13 +1200 Received: from falaklex00.falum.co.nz (10.8.1.28) by fclaklmr02.fcl.co.nz Friday, June 30, 2000 14:59:53 Message-ID: Received: by falaklex00.fcl.co.nz with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 15:03:02 +1200 Message-ID: <311B3C3DD32FD311B33900805F770A720226137C@falaklex00.fcl.co.nz> Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 15:02:52 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01BFE23F.B3FF90A0" Subject: RE: Meeting? From: "Andrew Withy (FAL AKL)" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01BFE23F.B3FF90A0 Content-Type: text/plain Without an agenda or burning issues we are unlikely to get a quorum. GM problems tend to surface in teh second GM's meeting of the quarter, and the third often has people coming along because they are running something next session. This is the quietest metting - lets cancel it this time Andrew > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael Parkinson [SMTP:m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz] > Sent: Friday, June 30, 2000 2:25 PM > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Subject: Meeting? > Importance: High > > Dear All, > > Are we having a gods Meeting on Sunday (2/7/00) -- or do I get to polish > the Returned Wyrm scenario in peace? > > No agenda has been posted. I believe the only things which are almost > proposable are [quick] changes to: > > *Lesser Efreeti (banishable) > *Dragonflames (wardable) > > please advise ASAP, Michael > > > > -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- ------_=_NextPart_001_01BFE23F.B3FF90A0 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Meeting? Without an agenda or = burning issues we are unlikely to get a quorum. GM problems tend to = surface in teh second GM's meeting of the quarter, and the third often = has people coming along because they are running something next = session. This is the quietest metting - lets cancel it this = time
Andrew
------_=_NextPart_001_01BFE23F.B3FF90A0-- -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Jun 30 16:29:04 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id QAA04648; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 16:16:56 +1200 Received: from defacto.peace.co.nz (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id QAA04645 for
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Parkinson = [SMTP:m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz]
Sent: Friday, June 30, 2000 2:25 PM
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: = Meeting?
Importance: HighDear All,
Are we having a gods Meeting on = Sunday (2/7/00) -- or do I get to polish
the Returned Wyrm scenario in = peace?No agenda has been posted. I = believe the only things which are almost
proposable are [quick] changes = to:*Lesser Efreeti (banishable)
*Dragonflames (wardable)please advise ASAP, Michael
-- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html = --
; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 16:16:52 +1200 Message-ID: <395C1A84.E1497D45@peace.com> Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 15:56:52 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Skill Structure [nothing at all to do with Astrology] From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > "Andrew Withy (FAL AKL)" wrote: > > Talking of coloured blocks, how high can you stack your coloured blocks? Can you get as many blue blocks in a multi-colour stack as you can in a purely blue stack, albeit more slowly, or should a blue tower br inherently capable of holding more blue blocks (within human limits, of course). Ahhh... now we get into the nitty gritty of game design. :) > To use the conveniently provided example, in the time that many people would have 4 of each of many (?7?) types of blocks, someone has built a tower of 8 jade blocks, with 4 blocks of each of two other colours. Yes. I was mistaken initially (or at least phrased it sub-optimally) in suggesting that rainbow blocks were involoved. It would be more accurate to say that in certain cases you get several blocks each of a different colour each rank... so they're really rainbow skills rather than rainbow blocks. Thief and Astologer are good examples of this. Each skill has a number of specific abilities (colours) and each rank you progress equally in all (number of blocks), ending up with a stack made of an equal number of each applicable colour. Courtier, Troub, Mech let you pick a colour a rank (or similar), possibly giving you some initial starting blocks, and once more as you progress in ranks you get more blocks of every appropriate colour. Troub and Courtier have the added ability to take 2 blocks of a colour you already have, rather than 1 of a new colour, but there is a loss too, since when a new colour is picked you don't actually get only 1 block, but rather a number equal to the total picks so far + 1. (That is to say, the new ability is not practised at rank 0/1 but att he rank of the skill as a whole). In the case you mention Andrew, if there are three starting picks then generalization (only taking new colours) will result after 4 more picks in a total of 35 blocks (7 colours x 5 -- DQ having the odd effect of counting from 0). Only picking the same colour again (as Jade has), results in 19 blocks (9 + (5 x 2)), which is not (as Jim has said), as much bang for your buck. > Why should they be limited to 10 jade blocks ever? Arbitary (and because in DQ ability above 10 may be harder to determine). This however, also creates a pressure against specialisation. The specialist will hit the top faster than the generalist (who will get there in the end, and with far more blocks alltogether). > Why do the number of other supporting blocks need to increase whenever more jade blocks are added? Would it be easier to just stack more jade blocks, or would the tower become unstable if other colours weren't added? This would make an inheretly more detailed and complex (and probably complicated) system. It would also make the concept of Rank generally redundant as it would describe the total qty of blocks in a PCs hand, but not the height of any part. > Would the cost be reduced if only certain colours were added, or if certain colours were forever banned from the tower? Banned is an interesting idea. > Hey Martin, the coloured block metaphor is quite flexible. Supply-chain solutions become sensible ranking business for specialists in certain professions. Well... actually I thought it was just my Lego obsession showing. Cheers, Martin -- _/_/ Peace Software New Zealand Ltd Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com _/ Martin Dickson Fax : +64-9-373-0401 Analyst Phone: +64-9-373-0400 -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Jun 30 20:43:45 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id UAA06135; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 20:38:30 +1200 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id UAA06132 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 20:38:27 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p183-tnt2.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.245.183]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id UAA14876 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 20:37:49 +1200 Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 20:30:16 +1200 Message-ID: <01bfe26d$6b2717e0$b7f56dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Astrologer is stuffed From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Martin Dickson wrote, innocently: >The "Sleeping Beauty" effect. Evil fairy says: "When she is 16 she will prick >her finger in a spindle and DIE!". Good fairy says: "Well, I can't get rid of >it, but I can modify it... She will not actually die, but will fall into a >slumber almost indistinguishable from death until...", etc. > >Being able to re-interpret and thus modify dooms, fates, etc, does sound well >within the purvey of Astrologers, and a desirable ability. > >I'm just not sure how much the PCs would be able to control it -- as a GM I >wouldn't want to see this as an easy way of removing a well earned doom, >although it would be reasonable for an Astrologer to perhaps be able to provide >information on how the doom could be ameliorated or lifted. > Reckon. What about letting the player sue the DM to moderate the effects of a doom (only dooms, I think)? The DM can make such die roll modifications that DMs are trained to understand, but that players are for ever denied the opportunity of fully understanding until they recieve the bounty of such enligtenment. If the DM thinks the moderation of the doom is kind of cool, then they can give it a whopping great modifier. If they think it's just a stinking great pile of dodo vomit, they can rule that it doesn't work. Alternatively, it could be that the Astrologer might attempt to find a way to lift the doom...Again, the DM is left with an adventure thread, instead of a die roll to look at. Jim -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Jun 30 20:44:21 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id UAA06069; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 20:28:41 +1200 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id UAA06066 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 20:28:37 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p183-tnt2.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.245.183]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id UAA14360 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 20:27:58 +1200 Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 20:20:25 +1200 Message-ID: <01bfe26c$0afd9700$b7f56dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Skill Structure [nothing at all to do with Astrology] From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Martin Dickson wrote: >Your comments on specialization (in response to Stephen) got me thinking again >about other generic ways that we might approach skill structures in DQ other >than simply either making them broad or making them narrow. This was not >intended as a discussion of Astrologer, hence the change of subject line away >from Astrology, and the abstract use of "blocks" rather than actual skill >specifics. > And a few other things, too. I won't go into them, but I'll just deal with the issue that they generally raise. I'm not saying that we shouldn't work on some, if you like to use the term, end-user format. What I am saying is that at this stage, dealing with that issue, when the method of what the skill will actually do is counterproductive, because form often defines the limit of the function. For example, if the skill that is resolved doesn't fit the format that every one likes, then the work is wasted, or worse, the work is forced into an unnatural construction to satisfy the concerns of everyone that worked on it. I am recalled of the nature of the design and construction of the space shuttle, which had to have a part from every state, to satisfy congressional politicians, even when there was no need for an extra part. Let us, for the nonce, eschew the matter, until we have something to occupy our attention in that regard. >Agreed. In the meantime I will happily discuss blue and green skill blocks with >whomever feels interested. Those of you expecting this to provide specific >answers to Astrologer, listen to Jim. Nothing to see here, move along, move >along. That kind of innocence reeks of cunning, duplicity, and trenchant deviousness...Ah, well... :-) Jim -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Jun 30 20:58:33 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id UAA06181; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 20:43:36 +1200 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id UAA06177 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 20:43:32 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p183-tnt2.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.245.183]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id UAA15153 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 20:42:54 +1200 Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 20:35:21 +1200 Message-ID: <01bfe26e$21032f40$b7f56dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0026_01BFE2D2.B6380F40" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Skill Structure [nothing at all to do with Astrology] From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01BFE2D2.B6380F40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 =20 Talking of coloured blocks, how high can you stack your coloured = blocks? Can you get as many blue blocks in a multi-colour stack as you = can in a purely blue stack, albeit more slowly, or should a blue tower = br inherently capable of holding more blue blocks (within human limits, = of course). =20 To use the conveniently provided example, in the time that many = people would have 4 of each of many (?7?) types of blocks, someone has = built a tower of 8 jade blocks, with 4 blocks of each of two other = colours. Why should they be limited to 10 jade blocks ever? Why do the = number of other supporting blocks need to increase whenever more jade = blocks are added? Would it be easier to just stack more jade blocks, or = would the tower become unstable if other colours weren't added? If we = don't want everyone to use the same mix of blocks at each height of the = tower, why do we limit specialisation? Should people be able to just buy = jade blocks without any other sort of blocks, or should there be a = minimum colour mix ratio? Would the cost be reduced if only certain = colours were added, or if certain colours were forever banned from the = tower? Can people build a series of low-rise dwellings with the same = blocks that they could have built their tower with, and if so, is it as = "cost-efficient" or should we not worry about efficiency when freedom of = expression is now available? =20 =20 =20 So...How much do these blocks cost, where do you get them, and how = do you ingest them? =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01BFE2D2.B6380F40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Skill Structure [nothing at all to = do with Astrology] ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01BFE2D2.B6380F40-- -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sat Jul 1 10:43:32 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id KAA10767; Sat, 1 Jul 2000 10:38:39 +1200 Received: from mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (mailhost.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.1.4]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id KAA10764 forTalking of coloured = blocks, how=20 high can you stack your coloured blocks? Can you get as many blue = blocks in=20 a multi-colour stack as you can in a purely blue stack, albeit more = slowly,=20 or should a blue tower br inherently capable of holding more blue = blocks=20 (within human limits, of course).
To use the = conveniently provided=20 example, in the time that many people would have 4 of each of many = (?7?)=20 types of blocks, someone has built a tower of 8 jade blocks, with 4 = blocks=20 of each of two other colours. Why should they be limited to 10 jade = blocks=20 ever? Why do the number of other supporting blocks need to increase = whenever=20 more jade blocks are added? Would it be easier to just stack more = jade=20 blocks, or would the tower become unstable if other colours weren't = added?=20 If we don't want everyone to use the same mix of blocks at each = height of=20 the tower, why do we limit specialisation? Should people be able to = just buy=20 jade blocks without any other sort of blocks, or should there be a = minimum=20 colour mix ratio? Would the cost be reduced if only certain colours = were=20 added, or if certain colours were forever banned from the tower? Can = people=20 build a series of low-rise dwellings with the same blocks that they = could=20 have built their tower with, and if so, is it as = "cost-efficient"=20 or should we not worry about efficiency when freedom of expression = is now=20 available?
So...How much do these blocks = cost, where do=20 you get them, and how do you ingest = them?
; Sat, 1 Jul 2000 10:38:35 +1200 Received: from sci4 (lbr-122-42.lbrsc.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.122.42]) by mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (8.9.2/8.9.2/8.9.2-ua) with SMTP id KAA14847 for ; Sat, 1 Jul 2000 10:37:38 +1200 (NZST) Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 10:36:25 +1200 Message-ID: <000001bfe2e3$a0048e90$2a7ad882@sci4> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Subject: Meeting tomorrow? From: "Michael Parkinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Sorry if this is a double posting -- but I didn't see the message on Friday: Are we having a gods Meeting on Sunday (2/7/00) No agenda has been posted. I believe the only things which are almost proposable are [quick] changes to: *Lesser Efreeti (banishable) *Dragonflames (wardable), regards, Michael -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sat Jul 1 12:58:37 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id MAA11535; Sat, 1 Jul 2000 12:56:49 +1200 Received: from smtp4.ihug.co.nz (smtp4.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.5]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id MAA11532 for ; Sat, 1 Jul 2000 12:56:45 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p142-tnt6.akl.ihug.co.nz [216.100.154.142]) by smtp4.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id MAA03242 for ; Sat, 1 Jul 2000 12:55:43 +1200 Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 12:47:58 +1200 Message-ID: <01bfe2f6$00ac7e80$8e9a64d8@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Meeting tomorrow? From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz >Are we having a gods Meeting on Sunday (2/7/00) >No agenda has been posted. Andrew Withy suggested that we cancel. The things that were discussed so far are: >*Lesser Efreeti (banishable) >*Dragonflames (wardable), And, the degree to which Astrology was stuffed, and what might be done about it. I would say that the meeting could happily roll over to next month. But, in general, I would like to proprose a change to the general format of the meeting, and it is this: We should take some time do talk about actually running games, not just about the campaign or the rules. It is the area of DMing that we talk about the least amongst ourselves, and it is the thing that we ought to talk about the most. There seems little point in raising it for the current meeting. I don't know if anyone else has anything that they want to talk about, but I certainly don't, really. Although, I must say that I'm happy to chatter on about it, if they want. Let us make a change to the format of the meeting so that it allows us the address the art of DMing. But, let us do it next month. Jim -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sat Jul 1 18:43:42 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id SAA13627; Sat, 1 Jul 2000 18:29:13 +1200 Received: from smtp4.ihug.co.nz (smtp4.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.5]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id SAA13624 for ; Sat, 1 Jul 2000 18:29:09 +1200 Received: from work.ihug.co.nz (p14-max10.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.98.14]) by smtp4.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id SAA20222 for ; Sat, 1 Jul 2000 18:28:00 +1200 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.0.20000701181949.00b289b0@pop.ihug.co.nz> X-Sender: phaeton@pop.ihug.co.nz (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 18:24:44 +1200 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: No Gods meeting this Sunday (2 July) From: Keith Smith To: dq-announce@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq-announce@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Looks like their is no meeting this Sunday at Mikes. Mike isn't receiving dq e-mail at the moment, which I need to check up on, so, if anyone needs to contact him, please ring 3570725. Keith (phaeton@ihug.co.nz) -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Jul 3 09:29:02 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id JAA27560; Mon, 3 Jul 2000 09:19:41 +1200 Received: from defacto.peace.co.nz (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id JAA27557 for ; Mon, 3 Jul 2000 09:19:37 +1200 Message-ID: <395FB16C.D195B77E@peace.com> Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 09:17:32 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Skill Structure [nothing at all to do with Astrology] From: Michael Woodhams To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: michael.woodhams@peace.com Martin Dickson wrote: > > Hey Martin, the coloured block metaphor is quite flexible. Supply-chain solutions become sensible ranking business for specialists in certain professions. > > Well... actually I thought it was just my Lego obsession showing. > I bought some computer controlled Lego last week. Michael. -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Jul 3 09:44:14 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id JAA27629; Mon, 3 Jul 2000 09:29:10 +1200 Received: from defacto.peace.co.nz (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id JAA27625 for ; Mon, 3 Jul 2000 09:29:07 +1200 Message-ID: <395FAF20.9448C4F5@peace.com> Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 09:07:44 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Skill Structure [nothing at all to do with Astrology] From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Jim Arona wrote: > So...How much do these blocks cost, where do you get them, > and how do you ingest them? > Hey... you might be on to something here. Character creation using liquorice allsorts.... colours to indicate types of ability, quantity to represent skill level.... Pros: Character power/level is obvious at a glance. GMs have more fun playing vampires Cons: GMs on sugar highs may be more whimsical PCs may be mistaken for snack-food during games. Characters become sticky in hot weather. -- _/_/ Peace Software New Zealand Ltd Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com _/ Martin Dickson Fax : +64-9-373-0401 Analyst Phone: +64-9-373-0400 -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Jul 3 09:45:19 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id JAA27693; Mon, 3 Jul 2000 09:35:18 +1200 Received: from defacto.peace.co.nz (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id JAA27690 for ; Mon, 3 Jul 2000 09:35:15 +1200 Message-ID: <395FB517.B2D1A0E1@peace.com> Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 09:33:11 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Skill Structure [nothing at all to do with Astrology] From: Michael Woodhams To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Michael Woodhams wrote: > Martin Dickson wrote: > > > > Hey Martin, the coloured block metaphor is quite flexible. Supply-chain solutions become sensible ranking business for specialists in certain professions. > > > > Well... actually I thought it was just my Lego obsession showing. > > > > I bought some computer controlled Lego last week. > > Michael. > > -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- Sorry, that was supposed to go only to Martin. I have many times accidentally sent stuff to the DQ list by hitting 'reply', and normally I ignore it rather than add still more noise with an apology. This is a particularly off-topic example however. Sorry also for all the other times I've sent a reply of marginal value because I thought it was only going to one person. Michael W. -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Jul 3 17:59:05 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id RAA30959; Mon, 3 Jul 2000 17:49:21 +1200 Received: from smtp4.ihug.co.nz (smtp4.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.5]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id RAA30956 for ; Mon, 3 Jul 2000 17:49:18 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p213-tnt1.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.111.213]) by smtp4.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id RAA23943 for ; Mon, 3 Jul 2000 17:47:00 +1200 Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 17:39:00 +1200 Message-ID: <01bfe4b0$fdbd93a0$d56f12ce@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Astrologer From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz We should determine what we want the skill to do. In general, there are two major approaches to predictions: The seer sees clearly, but it is a potential future, and the viewer is unaware of what the exact preconditions are to produce the outcome. The seer sees in a way shrouded with ambiguity, riddles, and other kinds of DM derived deception. We can have both, I suppose, and allow the DM afflicted with an astrologer decide which kind of reading he wants to provide. Obviously, the one that provides the viewer with the vision takes less time to do in the middle of a game, whereas the riddle approach can take a while. On the other hand, the riddle approach provides players with a reference tool that they can take away. I prefer taking both versions, and letting the DM decide how they're going to be applied. I am not about to be instructed by a player to come up with a riddle that will make a profound kind of sense at the end of the game. About predicting days of good and ill omen, I don't object to it, so long as, again, it rests in the DMs hands, and is played for dramatic effect. I don't want to see it acting as a minor bonus or penalty to their chances across the board. I am playing in a game at the moment where 2 players have difficulty working out what there numbers are at the best of times. I know, you're only talking about a 1 or 2 point variation. The players I have in mind find dealing with a lesser enchantment difficult to deal with. That's a fairly static die roll modifier. Imagine what this ephemeral modifier would do. Do we want astrologers to be able to lift Dooms? At the moment, they cannot be removed, really. And, I like that it can't be removed by death, etc. On the other hand, I would like there to be some agency by which you could remove them, otherwise, some idiot out there is going to afflict a terrible doom on some poor bugger. Again, there are three paths. Astrologer allows you to determine what the character must do to remove the doom. Astrology may be used to alter the wording of the doom. Both. I like both. Now, the only real hassle is how to do write the wretched skill. Jim -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Jul 4 09:28:56 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id JAA03772; Tue, 4 Jul 2000 09:20:59 +1200 Received: from defacto.peace.co.nz (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id JAA03769 for ; Tue, 4 Jul 2000 09:20:54 +1200 Message-ID: <3960FE85.106601B3@peace.com> Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 08:58:45 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Astrologer From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Jim Arona wrote: > About predicting days of good and ill omen, I don't object to it, so > long as, again, it rests in the DMs hands, and is played for dramatic effect. > I don't want to see it acting as a minor bonus or penalty to their chances > across the board. Perhaps narrative in nature? That is to say, an Astrologer is the person you ask for the most auspicious date to begin a journey or the necessary date to perform some ritual, etc. One downside; this is an essentially passive ability -- the player askes the GM and the GM gives them a date... not terribly exciting to play. Is there perhaps a way of making the player "work" for the information? > Astrology may be used to alter the wording of the doom. This is not a time one wants a critical failure. :) -- _/_/ Peace Software New Zealand Ltd Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com _/ Martin Dickson Fax : +64-9-373-0401 Analyst Phone: +64-9-373-0400 -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Jul 4 09:43:43 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id JAA03884; Tue, 4 Jul 2000 09:39:33 +1200 Received: from akl-notes2.aj.co.nz (akl-notes.aj.co.nz [202.27.194.165]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id JAA03881 for ; Tue, 4 Jul 2000 09:39:29 +1200 Received: from akl-notes.aj.co.nz ([192.168.4.165]) by akl-notes2.aj.co.nz (Lotus Domino Release 5.0.3 (Intl)) with ESMTP id 2000070409413282:8061 ; Tue, 4 Jul 2000 09:41:32 +1200 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.3 (Intl) 21 March 2000 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 09:39:27 +1200 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on akl-notes.aj.co.nz/AJNzl/NZ(Release 5.0.3 (Intl)|21 March 2000) at 04/07/2000 09:39:28, Serialize complete at 04/07/2000 09:39:28, Itemize by SMTP Server on akl-notes2/AJNzl/NZ(Release 5.0.3 (Intl)|21 March 2000) at 04/07/2000 09:41:32, Serialize by Router on akl-notes2/AJNzl/NZ(Release 5.0.3 (Intl)|21 March 2000) at 04/07/2000 09:41:37, Serialize complete at 04/07/2000 09:41:37 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 00772313CC256911_=" Subject: Re: Astrologer From: Rosemary_Mansfield/AJNzl/NZ@AJ.CO.NZ To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 00772313CC256911_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" So they combine the two abilities: a) pick the most auspicious day to attempt to change the doom b) make the attempt Rosemary Martin Dickson Sent by: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz 04/07/2000 08:58 Please respond to dq To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz cc: Subject: Re: Astrologer Jim Arona wrote: > About predicting days of good and ill omen, I don't object to it, so > long as, again, it rests in the DMs hands, and is played for dramatic effect. > I don't want to see it acting as a minor bonus or penalty to their chances > across the board. Perhaps narrative in nature? That is to say, an Astrologer is the person you ask for the most auspicious date to begin a journey or the necessary date to perform some ritual, etc. One downside; this is an essentially passive ability -- the player askes the GM and the GM gives them a date... not terribly exciting to play. Is there perhaps a way of making the player "work" for the information? > Astrology may be used to alter the wording of the doom. This is not a time one wants a critical failure. :) -- _/_/ Peace Software New Zealand Ltd Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com _/ Martin Dickson Fax : +64-9-373-0401 Analyst Phone: +64-9-373-0400 -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- --=_alternative 00772313CC256911_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
So they combine the two abilities:
a) pick the most auspicious day to attempt to change the doom
b) make the attempt
Rosemary
Martin Dickson <martin.dickson@peace.com>
Sent by: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz04/07/2000 08:58
Please respond to dq
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
cc:
Subject: Re: Astrologer
Jim Arona wrote:
> About predicting days of good and ill omen, I don't object to it, so
> long as, again, it rests in the DMs hands, and is played for dramatic effect.
> I don't want to see it acting as a minor bonus or penalty to their chances
> across the board.
Perhaps narrative in nature? That is to say, an Astrologer is the person you
ask for the most auspicious date to begin a journey or the necessary date to
perform some ritual, etc.
One downside; this is an essentially passive ability -- the player askes the GM
and the GM gives them a date... not terribly exciting to play. Is there perhaps
a way of making the player "work" for the information?
> Astrology may be used to alter the wording of the doom.
This is not a time one wants a critical failure. :)
--
_/_/ Peace Software New Zealand Ltd Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com
_/ Martin Dickson Fax : +64-9-373-0401
Analyst Phone: +64-9-373-0400
-- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html --
--=_alternative 00772313CC256911_=-- -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Jul 4 10:28:32 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id KAA04098; Tue, 4 Jul 2000 10:14:12 +1200 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (smtp2.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.8]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id KAA04095 for; Tue, 4 Jul 2000 10:14:09 +1200 Received: from work.ihug.co.nz (p171-tnt5.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.194.171]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id KAA02574 for ; Tue, 4 Jul 2000 10:11:29 +1200 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.0.20000704100623.00b29300@pop.ihug.co.nz> X-Sender: phaeton@pop.ihug.co.nz X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 10:06:59 +1200 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: Test message - Mike P, please reply if you get this. From: Keith Smith To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Test2 -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Jul 4 18:43:32 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id SAA07644; Tue, 4 Jul 2000 18:36:17 +1200 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (smtp2.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.8]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id SAA07641 for ; Tue, 4 Jul 2000 18:36:13 +1200 Received: from ihug.co.nz (p428-tnt4.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.104.174]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id SAA28033 for ; Tue, 4 Jul 2000 18:33:23 +1200 Message-ID: <3961861D.B62B34BD@ihug.co.nz> Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 18:37:17 +1200 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Fire College conversion From: scott whitaker To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Can Fire mages change college and respend tehir xp and time due to the major changes in the college? There have been significant changes and I feel allowing this would be reasonable. I would not have created a fire mege under the new rules. scott Whitaker -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Jul 4 18:58:33 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id SAA07755; Tue, 4 Jul 2000 18:54:20 +1200 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (smtp2.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.8]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id SAA07752 for ; Tue, 4 Jul 2000 18:54:17 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p259-tnt2.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.255.5]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id SAA29440 for ; Tue, 4 Jul 2000 18:51:26 +1200 Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 18:43:22 +1200 Message-ID: <01bfe583$263be840$05ff6dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Fire College conversion From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz >Can Fire mages change college and respend tehir xp >and time due to the major changes in the college? > >There have been significant changes and I feel >allowing this would be reasonable. > >I would not have created a fire mege under the new >rules. Why is your character a fire mage, then? There hasn't been substantial change to the college. If anything, it has got wider. What is the nature of your character that you feel the need to change college? -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jul 5 14:28:38 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id OAA14702; Wed, 5 Jul 2000 14:19:25 +1200 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id OAA14699 for ; Wed, 5 Jul 2000 14:19:20 +1200 Received: from work.ihug.co.nz (p92-tnt7.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.203.92]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id OAA29204 for ; Wed, 5 Jul 2000 14:16:02 +1200 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.0.20000705141020.00abf600@pop.ihug.co.nz> X-Sender: phaeton@pop.ihug.co.nz (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 14:11:53 +1200 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: Guild meeting awards From: Keith Smith To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Can anyone remember what are the current prizes given out for the awards at each Guild meeting. I'm wanting to make up the certificates but I can't remember what to put on them. Thanks, Keith (phaeton@ihug.co.nz) -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jul 5 15:59:13 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id PAA15430; Wed, 5 Jul 2000 15:54:09 +1200 Received: from fclaklmr02.fcl.co.nz ([202.14.23.202] (may be forged)) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id PAA15427 for ; Wed, 5 Jul 2000 15:54:03 +1200 Received: from falaklex00.falum.co.nz (10.8.1.28) by fclaklmr02.fcl.co.nz Wednesday, July 05, 2000 15:46:59 Message-ID: Received: by falaklex00.fcl.co.nz with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Wed, 5 Jul 2000 15:50:07 +1200 Message-ID: <311B3C3DD32FD311B33900805F770A7202261396@falaklex00.fcl.co.nz> Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 15:50:05 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01BFE634.1BE02960" Subject: RE: Guild meeting awards From: "Andrew Withy (FAL AKL)" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01BFE634.1BE02960 Content-Type: text/plain guild services to the value of 1,000sp. > -----Original Message----- > From: Keith Smith [SMTP:phaeton@ihug.co.nz] > Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2000 2:12 PM > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Subject: Guild meeting awards > > Can anyone remember what are the current prizes given out for the awards > at > each Guild meeting. I'm wanting to make up the certificates but I can't > remember what to put on them. > > Thanks, > > Keith > (phaeton@ihug.co.nz) > > > > -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- ------_=_NextPart_001_01BFE634.1BE02960 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Guild meeting awards guild services to = the value of 1,000sp.
------_=_NextPart_001_01BFE634.1BE02960-- -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jul 5 16:58:47 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id QAA15844; Wed, 5 Jul 2000 16:57:07 +1200 Received: from smtp4.ihug.co.nz (smtp4.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.5]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id QAA15841 for
-----Original Message-----
From: Keith Smith [SMTP:phaeton@ihug.co.nz]
Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2000 2:12 PM
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: = Guild meeting awardsCan anyone remember what are the = current prizes given out for the awards at
each Guild meeting. I'm wanting to = make up the certificates but I can't
remember what to put on them.Thanks,
Keith
(phaeton@ihug.co.nz)
-- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html = --
; Wed, 5 Jul 2000 16:57:03 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p162-tnt8.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.138.162]) by smtp4.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id QAA21473 for ; Wed, 5 Jul 2000 16:53:41 +1200 Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 16:45:20 +1200 Message-ID: <01bfe63b$d339c220$a28a6dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000E_01BFE6A0.686EA220" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Scribe notes From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01BFE6A0.686EA220 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hey, who looks after Scribe Notes from adventures, these days? I'm under = the impression that someone is doing it, but I can't think who that = person is. Jim ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01BFE6A0.686EA220 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Guild meeting = awards Hey, who looks after Scribe Notes = from=20 adventures, these days? I'm under the impression that someone is doing = it, but I=20 can't think who that person is.Jim------=_NextPart_000_000E_01BFE6A0.686EA220-- -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Jul 6 17:51:06 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id RAA27757; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 17:37:00 +1200 Received: from kakapo.cs.auckland.ac.nz (kakapo.cs.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.34.10]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id RAA27754 for; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 17:36:57 +1200 Received: from [130.216.108.110] (clare.cs.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.108.110]) by kakapo.cs.auckland.ac.nz (8.8.6/8.8.6/cs-master) with ESMTP id RAA09928 for ; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 17:33:02 +1200 (NZST) (sender clare@cs.auckland.ac.nz) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: clare@staffpop.cs.auckland.ac.nz Message-Id: Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 17:33:16 +1200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Subject: light and darkness From: clare@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Clare West) To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz I was pondering light and darkness the other day, especially with respect to Celestial mages. Currently the ruling is that the spells Light and Darkness cannot create *beneficial* lighting conditions. However, Solar and Dark Mages get their best bonuses in 100% light/darkness. A condition that according to the table is described as "Magical Effect - no vision works". What magical effect? Most people would say "Rank 20 light/darkness". So do light and darkness not provide beneficial effect until you get to Rank 20, and then suddenly they provide +/- 25%? Or is this something that slipped through the cracks when Light and Darkness were modified? or what? clare (who no longer plays a Dark Mage btw) -- Clare West, Rm 111, Ext 8266 clare@cs.auckland.ac.nz -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Jul 7 13:21:08 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id NAA01894; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 13:06:38 +1200 Received: from smtp4.ihug.co.nz (smtp4.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.5]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id NAA01891 for ; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 13:06:32 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p238-tnt6.akl.ihug.co.nz [216.100.154.238]) by smtp4.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id NAA20078 for ; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 13:02:04 +1200 Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 12:53:32 +1200 Message-ID: <01bfe7ad$c6861e20$ee9a64d8@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re:Adam Tennant From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Does anyone know Adam Tennant's email address? jimarona@ihug.co.nz -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Jul 7 17:46:25 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id RAA03956; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 17:42:24 +1200 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (smtp2.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.8]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id RAA03953 for ; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 17:42:20 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p217-tnt2.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.245.217]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id RAA24941 for ; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 17:37:51 +1200 Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 17:29:24 +1200 Message-ID: <01bfe7d4$501994c0$LocalHost@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: God's Meeting From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Jono spoke to me today, and seeing as he'd been away for a while, he was under the impression that the God's Meeting had been postponed until this weekend...That is not my understanding, but then, what do I know...So, what is happening this Sunday? Is there going to be a God's Meeting? -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Jul 7 19:00:47 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id SAA04401; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 18:53:00 +1200 Received: from fclaklmr02.fcl.co.nz ([202.14.23.202] (may be forged)) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with SMTP id SAA04398 for ; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 18:52:53 +1200 Received: from falaklex00.falum.co.nz (10.8.1.28) by fclaklmr02.fcl.co.nz Friday, July 07, 2000 18:44:35 Message-ID: Received: by falaklex00.fcl.co.nz with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id