From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Jun 15 12:00:49 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id LAA00257; Thu, 15 Jun 2000 11:56:38 +1200 Received: from smtp4.ihug.co.nz (smtp4.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.5]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id LAA00254 for ; Thu, 15 Jun 2000 11:56:34 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p169-tnt2.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.245.169]) by smtp4.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id LAA15540 for ; Thu, 15 Jun 2000 11:36:00 +1200 Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 11:33:32 +1200 Message-ID: <01bfd658$f438ea20$a9f56dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Military Scientist From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz I have grave misgivings about Military Scientist. I dislike two things about it. One in general, and one in particular. The skill breaks down, now, into sub-categories of skill, which is to say, Skirmish, Battlefield, etc. I don't like this, because the main effect is to require a player character who has the skill to take the Skirmish option. It isn't something that allows the skill to be customised by players, it requires a particular kind of development. Now, you can say that a player doesn't have to take the Skirmish option, and benefit from the unengaged initiative bonus, but I ask you, seriously, what player is going to pass it up? The option is really only open to NPCs, who may may be great commanders of armies, but not of skirmish units. This particular question comes down to whether or not you want the skill to model reality, or whether you want the skill to offer a player some range of alternatives. Practically, what this skill does is deny them the opportunity of developing the skill in an idiosyncratic way, because it says 'If you don't spend your xp in this particular fashion, then you will have wasted that xp.' What is the value of having any skill at all in Siege, might I ask? There is a value for Logistics, and a value for Battlefield, and a value for Skirmish. On the other hand, there is no good reason to have any skill in Siege at all. Mind you, that's just an example. I suppose the point I'm rambling toward, in that way that I do, is that when there is so powerful a motivation to take something like Skirmish, then it will always be taken as the first option. Maybe, a player out there has taken it as the Rank 3 option. Nevertheless, the players are mostly going to choose Skirmish over everything else, and that doesn't widen the game, it merely narrows it to something that you HAVE to take. That's not interesting, it's not idiosyncratic, and it doesn't do anything interesting for the game. The other thing that I HATE about this skill is the option of taking Naval and Aerial encounters. The reason I hate naval military science is because I think that such a beast should be a military scientist who has ranks in navigator. As it stands, a naval military scientist may not even be able to know which end of the boat is the pointy end. That just strikes me as stupid. And, I don't see a need to have the specialistion work like that. I suggest that this kind of beastie operate as a military scientist at the lowest of their Navigator or Military Scientist ranks. Aerial military scientists should just be drowned. However much you might say that any competent political entity might want to develop a sensible air force given that magical flight is an option, in much the same way that these political entities like having well organised and equipped navies and armies, the fact is that the whole idea of an air force is way out of genre, and doesn't contribute well to a shared state of suspended disbelief. It is fine to have an individual who has some expertise in aerial battles. It just doesn't need to be a part of the rules. Let players who wish to pursue such a course do so, and allow that NPCs might have such a specialisation, and just leave it at that. Particularly since military scientists who specialise in aerial encounters gain no special bonus. In fact, it looks to me like you can use your battlefield, skirmish and logistics specialisations in the air. It certainly doesn't deny that this can be done. So, the specialisation means nothing, really. And if it means nothing, then there's no point in learning it, and there's no point in having a rule about it, and there's no point in actually writing it down anywhere. Historically, military scientist has done three things, as far as players are concerned. It has other properties, but I've never seen them used very often. 1) Initiative bonus to unengaged initiative 2) Time out for initiative 3) Rallying feared party members Silverfoam regularly raises WP, but only Silverfoam. No-one else really has a rank high enough to make the endeavour worth the candle. I've never seen a player command their very own personal guard, and I suggest that it would be the rare player that did. I've only once seen a player try to penetrate the NPC's plans, and they told me afterward that they didn't like the ability, because you couldn't tell if it worked or not (it's a DM roll), and in any case, it kind of ruined the excitement if it worked. I agreed. I think that it IS the sort of thing that you might apply in large, massed combat, like with companies and regiments. Very occasionally, a player will find themselves in charge of a military unit, and the total number of troops they can effectively command becomes important. Therefore, I proprose the following: Do away with the areas of specialisation, because they don't add usefully to the game. Get rid of the training requirements for unengaged initiative bonus and rallying, because hardly anyone plays it anyway (i.e. Your bonus only applies if you have either trained for 12 weeks-MilSci rank or you have adventured with the character before). Move the 'penetrate enemy commander's plan' ability to massed combat, only, not the 'skirmish' level combats that adventures routinely portray. Leave everything else pretty much as it is. Jim. -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Jun 15 12:30:52 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id MAA00525; Thu, 15 Jun 2000 12:29:53 +1200 Received: from defacto.peace.co.nz (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id MAA00522 for ; Thu, 15 Jun 2000 12:29:40 +1200 Message-ID: <39481AB2.9B603A72@peace.com> Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 11:52:18 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Military Scientist From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Hi Jim, Jim Arona wrote: > The skill breaks down, now, into sub-categories of skill, which is to say, > Skirmish, Battlefield, etc. > I don't like this, because the main effect is to require a player character > who has the skill to take the Skirmish option. I tend to agree that the vast majority of PCs will take skirmish... and I agree that that is not optimal as it forces development. I am a little confused however. You seem to be suggesting that diversity is better than similarity eg. when discussing forced taking of skirmish you state: > Practically, what this skill does is deny them the opportunity of developing > the skill in an idiosyncratic way... but later in your post you suggest removing specializations altogether -- which would make all MilSci's effecively the same except for rank (and WP). I'm not sure how to reconcile these views. > What is the value of having any skill at all in Siege, might I ask? Perhaps none when compared with skirmish, that is true, but might not a player wish to take it for character reasons, and might it ot (admittedly very occasionally) come into its own? GMs have run games involving the prosecution or lifting of sieges in the past -- would not such a skill be useful? > The reason I hate naval military science is because I think that such a > beast should be a military scientist who has ranks in navigator. Feasible. However, is it reasonable to assume that because one knows how to command a platoon, and sail a ship, that one can plan tactics for a fleet? Personally I don't know... I have little enough skill in either. Which is better from a gaming POV? I do like having (buzzword warning), "synergy" between skills and am attracted to the idea that Mil Sci and Nav together give Fleet skills. > I suggest that this kind of > beastie operate as a military scientist at the lowest of their Navigator or > Military Scientist ranks. Seems reasonable. > Aerial military scientists should just be drowned...the fact is that the whole > idea of an air force is way out of genre... I beg to disagree. I contend that there are no "facts" in this matter only opinions. It is your opinion that Aerial tactics are out of genre. It is my opinion that they are in genre for some races and places, and out for others. It could be argued that such a skill should only be available by "Quest" or whatever to recognise its rarity... > It is fine to have an individual who has some expertise in aerial battles. > It just doesn't need to be a part of the rules. as you have indeed argued. :) OK... I tend to agree. > Particularly since military scientists who specialise in aerial encounters > gain no special bonus. In fact, it looks to me like you can use your > battlefield, skirmish and logistics specialisations in the air. It certainly > doesn't deny that this can be done. Ahh... the intention was that if you had Naval or Aerial you could include them in your overall plan, and that you can only spot tactics with areas you are familiar. The general with Battlefield (but not Aerial) meeting an Elven raiding force gets to say "I think they're going for a classic pincer move... but I have no idea what they plan on doing with those 20 Pegasi riders"... or somesuch. > Therefore, I proprose the following: > Do away with the areas of specialisation, because they don't add usefully to > the game. Except for allowing idiosyncratic Mil Sci characters, as above. I would suggest that as an alternative, Skirimish i.e. Hex Grid stuff becomes Rank 0 generic, Aerial could be removed, Naval's removal could be discussed further, and the remaining specialisations spread out a bit -- development is not forced, but some differences between Mil Sci's are retained. > Get rid of the training requirements for unengaged initiative bonus and > rallying, because hardly anyone plays it anyway (i.e. Your bonus only > applies if you have either trained for 12 weeks-MilSci rank or you have > adventured with the character before). I agree... a pointless rule, particularly in our multi GM "mix up the players every 3 months" campaign. Cheers, Martin -- _/_/ Peace Software New Zealand Ltd Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com _/ Martin Dickson Fax : +64-9-373-0401 Analyst Phone: +64-9-373-0400 -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Jun 15 13:15:59 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id NAA00844; Thu, 15 Jun 2000 13:12:46 +1200 Received: from fclaklmr02.fcl.co.nz ([202.14.23.202] (may be forged)) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id NAA00841 for ; Thu, 15 Jun 2000 13:12:42 +1200 Received: from falaklex00.falum.co.nz (10.8.1.28) by fclaklmr02.fcl.co.nz Thursday, June 15, 2000 12:47:43 Message-ID: Received: by falaklex00.fcl.co.nz with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Thu, 15 Jun 2000 12:51:58 +1200 Message-ID: <311B3C3DD32FD311B33900805F770A72010B15B1@falaklex00.fcl.co.nz> Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 12:51:50 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01BFD663.E8D18590" Subject: RE: Military Scientist From: "Andrew Withy (FAL AKL)" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01BFD663.E8D18590 Content-Type: text/plain How about have other specialisations besides Rank 0 Skirmish available at 1,000ep and 2 weeks, but at any rank, not just at rank 10. Then you can specialise as much or as little as you like, and people who quest for aerial, or cavalry, or whatever would get bonuses, but the normal skills would work fine. You can shape your character by being Rank 0 but a theorectical "expert" in everything, or a practical adventurer, Rank 8, no specialities. example: Mil Sci #1 has no specialities. They can send in the army, and horses run fast so they stay on the flanks and as reinforcements. Mil Sci #2 has (standard) battlefield, and organises the army effectively, using the special abilities of each - light horse archers to break up infantry with harrying fire, heavy cav to smash infantry lines, or whatever. Mil Sci #3 has (wierd/quest) cavalry speciality. They do cunning things with light horse archers hidden in their heavy cavalry to disrupt mage attacks during charges, and to fan out ahead to discover boggy ground in charges, and more stuff if the GM cares. Andrew > -----Original Message----- > > > Therefore, I proprose the following: > > Do away with the areas of specialisation, because they don't add > usefully to > > the game. > > Except for allowing idiosyncratic Mil Sci characters, as above. I would > suggest > that as an alternative, Skirimish i.e. Hex Grid stuff becomes Rank 0 > generic, > Aerial could be removed, Naval's removal could be discussed further, and > the > remaining specialisations spread out a bit -- development is not forced, > but > some differences between Mil Sci's are retained. > > > Get rid of the training requirements for unengaged initiative bonus and > > rallying, because hardly anyone plays it anyway (i.e. Your bonus only > > applies if you have either trained for 12 weeks-MilSci rank or you have > > adventured with the character before). > > I agree... a pointless rule, particularly in our multi GM "mix up the > players > every 3 months" campaign. > ------_=_NextPart_001_01BFD663.E8D18590 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Military Scientist

How about have other = specialisations besides Rank 0 Skirmish available at 1,000ep and 2 = weeks, but at any rank, not just at rank 10. Then you can specialise as = much or as little as you like, and people who quest for aerial, or = cavalry, or whatever would get bonuses, but the normal skills would = work fine. You can shape your character by being Rank 0 but a = theorectical "expert" in everything, or a practical = adventurer, Rank 8, no specialities.

example:
Mil Sci #1 has no = specialities. They can send in the army, and horses run fast so they = stay on the flanks and as reinforcements.

Mil Sci #2 has = (standard) battlefield, and organises the army effectively, using the = special abilities of each - light horse archers to break up infantry = with harrying fire, heavy cav to smash infantry lines, or = whatever.

Mil Sci #3 has = (wierd/quest) cavalry speciality. They do cunning things with light = horse archers hidden in their heavy cavalry to disrupt mage attacks = during charges, and to fan out ahead to discover boggy ground in = charges, and more stuff if the GM cares.

Andrew

    -----Original Message-----

    > Therefore, I proprose the = following:
    > Do away with the areas of = specialisation, because they don't add usefully to
    > the game.

    Except for allowing idiosyncratic Mil = Sci characters, as above.  I would suggest
    that as an alternative, Skirimish = i.e. Hex Grid stuff becomes Rank 0 generic,
    Aerial could be removed, Naval's = removal could be discussed further, and the
    remaining specialisations spread out = a bit -- development is not forced, but
    some differences between Mil Sci's = are retained.

    > Get rid of the training = requirements for unengaged initiative bonus and
    > rallying, because hardly anyone = plays it anyway (i.e. Your bonus only
    > applies if you have either = trained for 12 weeks-MilSci rank or you have
    > adventured with the character = before).

    I agree... a pointless rule, = particularly in our multi GM "mix up the players
    every 3 months" campaign.

------_=_NextPart_001_01BFD663.E8D18590-- -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Jun 15 13:16:51 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id NAA00831; Thu, 15 Jun 2000 13:10:53 +1200 Received: from qedweb.qed.co.nz ([203.97.23.140] (may be forged)) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id NAA00828 for ; Thu, 15 Jun 2000 13:10:48 +1200 Received: by localhost with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Thu, 15 Jun 2000 12:49:37 +1200 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 12:49:34 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: RE: Military Scientist From: Stephen Martin To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz From a game advantage & usefulness point of view it would be foolish to take anything other than Skirmish at rank 0. However I see no need to make it mandatory, if for whatever reason someone chooses to take another speciality at Rank 0 then that's their problem/choice. In some ways it does mirror reality, there have been commanding officers who can sit in the command bunker and direct a tactically brilliant battle, but when they're leading a small patrol against the enemy they might as well be signing their own death certificate. In reality this is because of different personality types, backgrounds, training, etc... in DQ this is emulated by choice of specialisations. As for the others, in 90% of games it won't come up. When it does come up the battlefield Mil Sci can observe the enemy and terrain for a while and have the GM tell them what the best tactics would be and what the enemy is most likely to do (with accuracy dependent on the roll & base chance). What the party then does with that information is up to them. I like the idea that Naval tactics are different and a battlefield commander is not necessarily a genius on the sea. As for tying it in with Navigator, I think a Naval MilSci who is also a Navigator should be better than a pure Naval MilSci. I wouldn't codify this in the rules though, I'd leave it up to the GM to apply or assume the benefit where appropriate. Aerial, I tend to agree about getting rid of it. Simply apply the most appropriate of Skirmish or Battlefield based on the scale of the fight. Apart from effects to game mechanics like unegaged IV, time-outs, rallying, raising morale... the most important role of MilSci is for GMs to communicate to players what is and isn't good tactics. Often we have the situation where the player being the MilSci doesn't have any tactical skill, or the player does but the GM doesn't. What it comes down to is that if the GM declares or decides that something is good tactics, it is. And whether/what they communicate this to the player depends on the characters skill in MilSci. For example: the party MilSci (Rank 9) decides that forming the party into a single file column and charging into the centre of the opposing troops is the best tactic, the GM can then either inform the player that as a Rk 9 MilSci they know this will be suicide, or adjust the situation so that it is the best tactic ( the enemy positioned a thin line of their weakest troops in the middle and the party breaks straight through to attack the enemy commanders). Cheers, Stephen. > -----Original Message----- > From: Jim Arona [SMTP:jimarona@ihug.co.nz] > Sent: Thursday, 15 June 2000 11:34 > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Subject: Re: Military Scientist > > I have grave misgivings about Military Scientist. > I dislike two things about it. One in general, and one in particular. > > The skill breaks down, now, into sub-categories of skill, which is to say, > Skirmish, Battlefield, etc. > I don't like this, because the main effect is to require a player > character > who has the skill to take the Skirmish option. It isn't something that > allows the skill to be customised by players, it requires a particular > kind > of development. > Now, you can say that a player doesn't have to take the Skirmish option, > and > benefit from the unengaged initiative bonus, but I ask you, seriously, > what > player is going to pass it up? > The option is really only open to NPCs, who may may be great commanders of > armies, but not of skirmish units. > This particular question comes down to whether or not you want the skill > to > model reality, or whether you want the skill to offer a player some range > of > alternatives. > Practically, what this skill does is deny them the opportunity of > developing > the skill in an idiosyncratic way, because it says 'If you don't spend > your > xp in this particular fashion, then you will have wasted that xp.' > What is the value of having any skill at all in Siege, might I ask? There > is > a value for Logistics, and a value for Battlefield, and a value for > Skirmish. On the other hand, there is no good reason to have any skill in > Siege at all. Mind you, that's just an example. > I suppose the point I'm rambling toward, in that way that I do, is that > when > there is so powerful a motivation to take something like Skirmish, then it > will always be taken as the first option. Maybe, a player out there has > taken it as the Rank 3 option. Nevertheless, the players are mostly going > to > choose Skirmish over everything else, and that doesn't widen the game, it > merely narrows it to something that you HAVE to take. That's not > interesting, it's not idiosyncratic, and it doesn't do anything > interesting > for the game. > The other thing that I HATE about this skill is the option of taking Naval > and Aerial encounters. > The reason I hate naval military science is because I think that such a > beast should be a military scientist who has ranks in navigator. As it > stands, a naval military scientist may not even be able to know which end > of > the boat is the pointy end. That just strikes me as stupid. And, I don't > see > a need to have the specialistion work like that. I suggest that this kind > of > beastie operate as a military scientist at the lowest of their Navigator > or > Military Scientist ranks. > Aerial military scientists should just be drowned. However much you might > say that any competent political entity might want to develop a sensible > air > force given that magical flight is an option, in much the same way that > these political entities like having well organised and equipped navies > and > armies, the fact is that the whole idea of an air force is way out of > genre, > and doesn't contribute well to a shared state of suspended disbelief. > It is fine to have an individual who has some expertise in aerial battles. > It just doesn't need to be a part of the rules. Let players who wish to > pursue such a course do so, and allow that NPCs might have such a > specialisation, and just leave it at that. > Particularly since military scientists who specialise in aerial encounters > gain no special bonus. In fact, it looks to me like you can use your > battlefield, skirmish and logistics specialisations in the air. It > certainly > doesn't deny that this can be done. > So, the specialisation means nothing, really. > And if it means nothing, then there's no point in learning it, and there's > no point in having a rule about it, and there's no point in actually > writing > it down anywhere. > Historically, military scientist has done three things, as far as players > are concerned. It has other properties, but I've never seen them used very > often. > 1) Initiative bonus to unengaged initiative > 2) Time out for initiative > 3) Rallying feared party members > Silverfoam regularly raises WP, but only Silverfoam. No-one else really > has > a rank high enough to make the endeavour worth the candle. > I've never seen a player command their very own personal guard, and I > suggest that it would be the rare player that did. > I've only once seen a player try to penetrate the NPC's plans, and they > told > me afterward that they didn't like the ability, because you couldn't tell > if > it worked or not (it's a DM roll), and in any case, it kind of ruined the > excitement if it worked. I agreed. > I think that it IS the sort of thing that you might apply in large, massed > combat, like with companies and regiments. > Very occasionally, a player will find themselves in charge of a military > unit, and the total number of troops they can effectively command becomes > important. > Therefore, I proprose the following: > Do away with the areas of specialisation, because they don't add usefully > to > the game. > Get rid of the training requirements for unengaged initiative bonus and > rallying, because hardly anyone plays it anyway (i.e. Your bonus only > applies if you have either trained for 12 weeks-MilSci rank or you have > adventured with the character before). > Move the 'penetrate enemy commander's plan' ability to massed combat, > only, > not the 'skirmish' level combats that adventures routinely portray. > Leave everything else pretty much as it is. > Jim. > > > > > -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Jun 15 13:45:44 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id NAA01035; Thu, 15 Jun 2000 13:38:45 +1200 Received: from fep3-orange.clear.net.nz (fep3-orange.clear.net.nz [203.97.32.3]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id NAA01031 for ; Thu, 15 Jun 2000 13:38:40 +1200 Received: from comms.maclean.co.nz (t001-m001-u20.acld.clear.net.nz [203.97.72.20]) by fep3-orange.clear.net.nz (1.5/1.6) with ESMTP id NAA16939; Thu, 15 Jun 2000 13:18:04 +1200 (NZST) Received: by comms.maclean.co.nz with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) id ; Thu, 15 Jun 2000 12:52:38 +1200 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 12:52:35 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: RE: Military Scientist From: Tom Mason To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz I agree with both people. We are also play testing (Gordon's game) the new initiative system that has been created. This probably isn't worded the best and I could spend more time rewording it. But the emphasis is on the idea. Below is how I would try and describe changing the rules. Would it be easier to have skirmish as rank 0 to gain the initiative bonus as most characters take up this to start with. You have no choice but get this at rank 0 like herbalist's analyse chemicals at rank 0. Then Mil Scis can choose to specialise in other fields giving them a bonus like the Ranger's field type specialisation on dice rolls in those specialised situations. Therefore if you just have skirmish you can operate as normal... however if you choose Aerial because you are a Mil Sci that's currently flying with his/her/its party then they may get an additional bonus if the opposition's Mil Sci doesn't have aerial specialisation, no matter whether they are on the ground or not. If both forces have the aerial specialisation then it either negates the bonus for both forces or the bonuses still apply like under the current skirmish rules. Tom :-) -----Original Message----- From: Martin Dickson [mailto:martin.dickson@peace.com] Sent: Thursday, 15 June 2000 11:52 To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Subject: Re: Military Scientist Hi Jim, Jim Arona wrote: > The skill breaks down, now, into sub-categories of skill, which is to say, > Skirmish, Battlefield, etc. > I don't like this, because the main effect is to require a player character > who has the skill to take the Skirmish option. I tend to agree that the vast majority of PCs will take skirmish... and I agree that that is not optimal as it forces development. I am a little confused however. You seem to be suggesting that diversity is better than similarity eg. when discussing forced taking of skirmish you state: > Practically, what this skill does is deny them the opportunity of developing > the skill in an idiosyncratic way... but later in your post you suggest removing specializations altogether -- which would make all MilSci's effecively the same except for rank (and WP). I'm not sure how to reconcile these views. > What is the value of having any skill at all in Siege, might I ask? Perhaps none when compared with skirmish, that is true, but might not a player wish to take it for character reasons, and might it ot (admittedly very occasionally) come into its own? GMs have run games involving the prosecution or lifting of sieges in the past -- would not such a skill be useful? > The reason I hate naval military science is because I think that such a > beast should be a military scientist who has ranks in navigator. Feasible. However, is it reasonable to assume that because one knows how to command a platoon, and sail a ship, that one can plan tactics for a fleet? Personally I don't know... I have little enough skill in either. Which is better from a gaming POV? I do like having (buzzword warning), "synergy" between skills and am attracted to the idea that Mil Sci and Nav together give Fleet skills. > I suggest that this kind of > beastie operate as a military scientist at the lowest of their Navigator or > Military Scientist ranks. Seems reasonable. > Aerial military scientists should just be drowned...the fact is that the whole > idea of an air force is way out of genre... I beg to disagree. I contend that there are no "facts" in this matter only opinions. It is your opinion that Aerial tactics are out of genre. It is my opinion that they are in genre for some races and places, and out for others. It could be argued that such a skill should only be available by "Quest" or whatever to recognise its rarity... > It is fine to have an individual who has some expertise in aerial battles. > It just doesn't need to be a part of the rules. as you have indeed argued. :) OK... I tend to agree. > Particularly since military scientists who specialise in aerial encounters > gain no special bonus. In fact, it looks to me like you can use your > battlefield, skirmish and logistics specialisations in the air. It certainly > doesn't deny that this can be done. Ahh... the intention was that if you had Naval or Aerial you could include them in your overall plan, and that you can only spot tactics with areas you are familiar. The general with Battlefield (but not Aerial) meeting an Elven raiding force gets to say "I think they're going for a classic pincer move... but I have no idea what they plan on doing with those 20 Pegasi riders"... or somesuch. > Therefore, I proprose the following: > Do away with the areas of specialisation, because they don't add usefully to > the game. Except for allowing idiosyncratic Mil Sci characters, as above. I would suggest that as an alternative, Skirimish i.e. Hex Grid stuff becomes Rank 0 generic, Aerial could be removed, Naval's removal could be discussed further, and the remaining specialisations spread out a bit -- development is not forced, but some differences between Mil Sci's are retained. > Get rid of the training requirements for unengaged initiative bonus and > rallying, because hardly anyone plays it anyway (i.e. Your bonus only > applies if you have either trained for 12 weeks-MilSci rank or you have > adventured with the character before). I agree... a pointless rule, particularly in our multi GM "mix up the players every 3 months" campaign. Cheers, Martin -- _/_/ Peace Software New Zealand Ltd Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com _/ Martin Dickson Fax : +64-9-373-0401 Analyst Phone: +64-9-373-0400 -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Jun 15 14:33:41 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id OAA01368; Thu, 15 Jun 2000 14:30:27 +1200 Received: from smtp4.ihug.co.nz (smtp4.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.5]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id OAA01365 for ; Thu, 15 Jun 2000 14:30:22 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p84-tnt2.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.245.84]) by smtp4.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id OAA06722 for ; Thu, 15 Jun 2000 14:09:45 +1200 Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 14:07:19 +1200 Message-ID: <01bfd66e$7032fe80$a9f56dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Military Scientist From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz >Jim Arona wrote: > >> The skill breaks down, now, into sub-categories of skill, which is to say, >> Skirmish, Battlefield, etc. >> I don't like this, because the main effect is to require a player character >> who has the skill to take the Skirmish option. Martin Dickson wrote: >I tend to agree that the vast majority of PCs will take skirmish... and I agree >that that is not optimal as it forces development. I am a little confused >however. You seem to be suggesting that diversity is better than similarity eg. >when discussing forced taking of skirmish you state: > >> Practically, what this skill does is deny them the opportunity of developing >> the skill in an idiosyncratic way... > >but later in your post you suggest removing specializations altogether -- which >would make all MilSci's effecively the same except for rank (and WP). I'm not >sure how to reconcile these views. It seems clear to me. The principle at issue, here, is diversity. If the only thing you develop is Skirmish, because it is the most valuable specialisation, then you create enormous pressure to develop into Skirmish. This is like AG, WP or EN. These stats are extremely powerful, in DQ, and a player needs a good reason to advance a stat like MD, instead of AG, say. There is little reason to advance MD, except for a few characters, but all characters gain serious advantage from advancing AG. Instead, what has happened is that a player is almost completely forced to take Skirmish, because it's so good. Then, you take specialisations on the list as your rank advances, without much more thought than what would be nice. It doesn't lead to any kind of resonance with the character's story, really. > >> What is the value of having any skill at all in Siege, might I ask? > >Perhaps none when compared with skirmish, that is true, but might not a player >wish to take it for character reasons, and might it ot (admittedly very >occasionally) come into its own? GMs have run games involving the prosecut ion >or lifting of sieges in the past -- would not such a skill be useful? It MIGHT be. But, as it stands, it offers no intrinsic advantage. There is no particular reason to take it. Therefore, the game pressure is not to take it, but take those specialisations that offer a bonus. You don't create diversity by allowing a player simply by saying they can have a specialisation. If, for example, one of the areas of specialisations was tightrope war, where the armies met each other on tightropes and fought it on long narrow lines of bloodshed, and that's all the rules said about it, what game pressure is there to acquire the specialisation? I suggest that there is none, except for the flippant. This is not to say that one would not look favourably upon a milsci who was a siegemaster, in the pursuit of such a battle. Nevertheless, the specialisation offers no particular advantage, and therefore is probably going to be acquired after the advantage providing specialisations. That means that you have only paid lip service to the concept of diversity. Nothing variant is really offered, it only seems to be offered. > >> The reason I hate naval military science is because I think that such a >> beast should be a military scientist who has ranks in navigator. > >Feasible. However, is it reasonable to assume that because one knows how to >command a platoon, and sail a ship, that one can plan tactics for a fleet? Possibly not, but as it stands at the moment, it is entirely possible to have no skill at sea at all, and still plan superbly for a naval engagement. I find that: 1) Extremely hard to believe 2) Not representative of specialisation. >Personally I don't know... I have little enough skill in either. Which is >better from a gaming POV? I do like having (buzzword warning), "synergy" >between skills and am attracted to the idea that Mil Sci and Nav together give >Fleet skills. I would prefer the idea of a player who has advanced their skills in both these areas, because, simply, it captures the idea of specialisation. To be a naval commander, a player would have to advance two skills, and pay two different lumps of xp. This seems extremely reasonable to me. If you don't have an understanding of tides, currents, wind and sail, how in God's name do you plan a military engagement on the wet stuff? You only fight in ponds? >> Aerial military scientists should just be drowned...the fact is that the whole >> idea of an air force is way out of genre... > >I beg to disagree. I contend that there are no "facts" in this matter only >opinions. It is your opinion that Aerial tactics are out of genre. It is my >opinion that they are in genre for some races and places, and out for others. >It could be argued that such a skill should only be available by "Quest" or >whatever to recognise its rarity... Well, if it is a 'Quest' or a racial thing, then it doesn't need to be written down as part of the standard rules. It would be different for every person who acquired it, depending, I suppose, on the source. The reason I don't really want Aerial milsci stuff available is that if it actually provided a bonus, a player would be heavily pressured to acquire it at Rank 3, because an aerial encounter is a severely unpleasant encounter, and you need every bonus you can get when you're fighting thingies like that. >> Particularly since military scientists who specialise in aerial encounters >> gain no special bonus. In fact, it looks to me like you can use your >> battlefield, skirmish and logistics specialisations in the air. It certainly >> doesn't deny that this can be done. > >Ahh... the intention was that if you had Naval or Aerial you could include them >in your overall plan, and that you can only spot tactics with areas you are >familiar. The general with Battlefield (but not Aerial) meeting an Elven >raiding force gets to say "I think they're going for a classic pincer move... >but I have no idea what they plan on doing with those 20 Pegasi riders"... or >somesuch. > Yes, well, that's fine, but it doesn't actually say that, anywhere. I don't think, anyway. >> Therefore, I proprose the following: >> Do away with the areas of specialisation, because they don't add usefully to >> the game. > >Except for allowing idiosyncratic Mil Sci characters, as above. I would suggest >that as an alternative, Skirimish i.e. Hex Grid stuff becomes Rank 0 generic, >Aerial could be removed, Naval's removal could be discussed further, and the >remaining specialisations spread out a bit -- development is not forced, but >some differences between Mil Sci's are retained. Is this even a Rankable thing? I mean, why bother putting it in the rules, like that at all. Surely, a better way to do it is to have a player start with Skirmish (unless there's a good reason not to) and depending on the game, they may be exposed to different kinds of warfare, and therefore, they may reasonably be allowed to buy these specialisations. I'm quite prepared to accept that you can learn a lot about warfare from books, but how do you get to know how to handle a siege? Surely, having been part of a siege is the critical thing, here? And, the same applies with battlefield. Off the top of my head, the only specialisation that says to me that you don't need to have experienced that part of war would be logistics, and I might be wrong that one. Let me put it another way. The right to advance specialisations should, by and large, be something that you acquire as a part of an adventure, in much the same way as a player can advance an adventuring skill. They only have to be learnt once, and bought once, and they increase as you advance your rank in milsci. It seems to me that this offers the widest path of individuating the skill for players. Jim. -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Jun 15 14:46:29 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id OAA01421; Thu, 15 Jun 2000 14:38:03 +1200 Received: from smtp4.ihug.co.nz (smtp4.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.5]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id OAA01417 for ; Thu, 15 Jun 2000 14:37:51 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p84-tnt2.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.245.84]) by smtp4.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id OAA07636 for ; Thu, 15 Jun 2000 14:17:13 +1200 Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 14:14:49 +1200 Message-ID: <01bfd66f$7c20c6e0$a9f56dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_006C_01BFD6D4.1155A6E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Military Scientist From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_006C_01BFD6D4.1155A6E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Andrew Withy wrote: How about have other specialisations besides Rank 0 Skirmish available = at 1,000ep and 2 weeks, but at any rank, not just at rank 10. Then you = can specialise as much or as little as you like, and people who quest = for aerial, or cavalry, or whatever would get bonuses, but the normal = skills would work fine. You can shape your character by being Rank 0 but = a theorectical "expert" in everything, or a practical adventurer, Rank = 8, no specialities. example:=20 Mil Sci #1 has no specialities. They can send in the army, and horses = run fast so they stay on the flanks and as reinforcements. Mil Sci #2 has (standard) battlefield, and organises the army = effectively, using the special abilities of each - light horse archers = to break up infantry with harrying fire, heavy cav to smash infantry = lines, or whatever. Mil Sci #3 has (wierd/quest) cavalry speciality. They do cunning things = with light horse archers hidden in their heavy cavalry to disrupt mage = attacks during charges, and to fan out ahead to discover boggy ground in = charges, and more stuff if the GM etc. =20 Yes, but what this creates is the PC who specialises in everything and = then advances their rank in milsci, because you've often got a few weeks = spare from training, and a thousand xp to throw at something...It = doesn't individuate characters, it means they all become the same. I think. I suppose some characters might not do that, because they're xp hungry, = or they're time hungry, but a lot of characters have moments when they = don't have much else to do. In effect, such a rule would reward the kind = of development where a player 'might as well, 'cause they've got nothing = better to do'. I HATE that. Jim. ------=_NextPart_000_006C_01BFD6D4.1155A6E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Military Scientist
Andrew Withy wrote:
How=20 about have other specialisations besides Rank 0 Skirmish available at = 1,000ep=20 and 2 weeks, but at any rank, not just at rank 10. Then you can = specialise as=20 much or as little as you like, and people who quest for aerial, or = cavalry, or=20 whatever would get bonuses, but the normal skills would work fine. You = can shape=20 your character by being Rank 0 but a theorectical "expert" in=20 everything, or a practical adventurer, Rank 8, no = specialities.
example:
Mil Sci #1 has=20 no specialities. They can send in the army, and horses run fast so they = stay on=20 the flanks and as reinforcements.
Mil Sci #2 has (standard) battlefield, and organises the army=20 effectively, using the special abilities of each - light horse archers = to break=20 up infantry with harrying fire, heavy cav to smash infantry lines, or=20 whatever.
Mil Sci #3 has (wierd/quest) cavalry speciality. They do = cunning things=20 with light horse archers hidden in their heavy cavalry to disrupt mage = attacks=20 during charges, and to fan out ahead to discover boggy ground in = charges, and=20 more stuff if the GM etc.
 
 
 
 
Yes, but what = this creates is=20 the PC who specialises in everything and then advances their rank in = milsci,=20 because you've often got a few weeks spare from training, and a thousand = xp to=20 throw at something...It doesn't individuate characters, it means they = all become=20 the same. 
I = think. 
I suppose some = characters might not=20 do that, because they're xp hungry, or they're time hungry, but a lot of = characters have moments when they don't have much else to do. In effect, = such a=20 rule would reward the kind of development where a player 'might as well, = 'cause=20 they've got nothing better to do'. I HATE that.
Jim.
------=_NextPart_000_006C_01BFD6D4.1155A6E0-- -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Jun 15 15:00:46 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id OAA01580; Thu, 15 Jun 2000 14:56:32 +1200 Received: from smtp4.ihug.co.nz (smtp4.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.5]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id OAA01577 for ; Thu, 15 Jun 2000 14:56:28 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p84-tnt2.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.245.84]) by smtp4.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id OAA10551 for ; Thu, 15 Jun 2000 14:35:50 +1200 Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 14:33:26 +1200 Message-ID: <01bfd672$1604eaa0$a9f56dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Military Scientist From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Steve Martin wrote: >From a game advantage & usefulness point of view it would be foolish to take >anything other than Skirmish at rank 0. >However I see no need to make it mandatory, if for whatever reason someone >chooses to take another speciality at Rank 0 then that's their >problem/choice. >In some ways it does mirror reality, there have been commanding officers who >can sit in the command bunker and direct a tactically brilliant battle, but >when they're leading a small patrol against the enemy they might as well be >signing their own death certificate. In reality this is because of >different personality types, backgrounds, training, etc... in DQ this is >emulated by choice of specialisations. Yes, but we're writing rules for players. Yes, a player might have a special reason for not being good at Skirmish, and that's fine. What DM is going to argue with them, if they say that they don't want to have it. And, really, what does it matter if a general can lead a battle superbly, but can't fight his way out of a paper bag when he's in a skirmish situation. If I want that sort of character in my game, then that's what will happen, and it doesn't matter what the rule book says. And, if the argument heads toward training and backgrounds, then only the very rare player character will have any skill in any other arena of warfare, than skirmish, so again, the opportunities are narrowed. > >As for the others, in 90% of games it won't come up. When it does come up >the battlefield Mil Sci can observe the enemy and terrain for a while and >have the GM tell them what the best tactics would be and what the enemy is >most likely to do (with accuracy dependent on the roll & base chance). What >the party then does with that information is up to them. As I say, I have never seen anyone terribly happy with this rule. Players seem to find that it either takes a lot of the fun out of the game when they get it right, or they get screwed because they blew the roll and never knew it. In addition, information is too important to players to be so cavalierly treated. Clues, foreshadowing, suspense and mystery are all important to a game, contributing as they do to dramatic tension. To abrogate all of that in the face of a die roll just strikes me as silly. >I like the idea that Naval tactics are different and a battlefield commander >is not necessarily a genius on the sea. I don't. I can't think how you organise a sea battle if you aren't good at Navigation. Remember that the skill isn't just about knowing your position on the water, it's also about getting the most out of your men and your craft. If you have no skill in these areas, how do you measure their effectiveness. Jim. -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Jun 15 15:15:49 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id PAA01669; Thu, 15 Jun 2000 15:07:12 +1200 Received: from smtp4.ihug.co.nz (smtp4.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.5]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id PAA01666 for ; Thu, 15 Jun 2000 15:07:08 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p84-tnt2.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.245.84]) by smtp4.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id OAA12285 for ; Thu, 15 Jun 2000 14:46:30 +1200 Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 14:44:07 +1200 Message-ID: <01bfd673$93af8540$a9f56dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Military Scientist From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tom wrote: >Would it be easier to have skirmish as rank 0 to gain the initiative bonus >as most characters take up this to start with. You have no choice but get >this at rank 0 like herbalist's analyse chemicals at rank 0. > >Then Mil Scis can choose to specialise in other fields giving them a bonus >like the Ranger's field type specialisation on dice rolls in those >specialised situations. > >Therefore if you just have skirmish you can operate as normal... however if >you choose Aerial because you are a Mil Sci that's currently flying with >his/her/its party then they may get an additional bonus if the opposition's >Mil Sci doesn't have aerial specialisation, no matter whether they are on >the ground or not. > >If both forces have the aerial specialisation then it either negates the >bonus for both forces or the bonuses still apply like under the current >skirmish rules. Um. So? What does this add to the game? There are only three different terrain types for milsci. Land, sea, and air. Your suggestion means that a player would be pressured to develop all three of these terrain types, because adventurers are constantly moving around and often operate in different environments. This doesn't support individuated milsci skill, it means that they all start looking the same. And, you can bet that if such a specialisation package were offered, then players would advance Aerial before they advanced Naval, because Aerial encounters are so much nastier, and it's easy to get hold of flying magic. Indeed, flying is the standard form of movement, for Guild adventurers. I'm firmly convinced that some adventurers have lost the power of their legs as a result of flying all of the time. Differing specialities like siege, logistics and battlefield would only be touched by players who wished to advance those skills, whereas those players who were ranking milsci because it was handy for them and their party would end up being more effective milscis. That's not good, because it means that a player who has a vision for their character gets screwed for having a plan, whereas the character who doesn't have a vision gets rewarded for playing the numbers. And, can you blame the character that plays the numbers? I don't think so. They are merely responding to the ruleset. Jim -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Jun 15 17:00:52 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id QAA02309; Thu, 15 Jun 2000 16:46:19 +1200 Received: from fep3-orange.clear.net.nz (fep3-orange.clear.net.nz [203.97.32.3]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id QAA02306 for ; Thu, 15 Jun 2000 16:46:16 +1200 Received: from comms.maclean.co.nz (b002-m004-p013.acld.clear.net.nz [203.167.198.205]) by fep3-orange.clear.net.nz (1.5/1.6) with ESMTP id QAA00571; Thu, 15 Jun 2000 16:46:03 +1200 (NZST) Received: by comms.maclean.co.nz with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) id ; Thu, 15 Jun 2000 16:25:40 +1200 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 16:25:38 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: RE: Military Scientist From: Tom Mason To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Isn't that the idea of ranking? Your character becomes more experienced in a particular field thus making it easier to do something. As this is a dice based system surely that would equate to better percentage odds. You're right you can't blame characters from going with dice rolls because they have spent time and effort on increasing their odds. If aerial is the best thing to have then increase the amount of experience required to advance in a rank. Also restrict how they can get sub fields by being exposed to them. Thus someone who has never been in aerial combat can't learn it. Tom -----Original Message----- From: Jim Arona [mailto:jimarona@ihug.co.nz] Sent: Thursday, 15 June 2000 14:44 To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Subject: Re: Military Scientist Tom wrote: >Would it be easier to have skirmish as rank 0 to gain the initiative bonus >as most characters take up this to start with. You have no choice but get >this at rank 0 like herbalist's analyse chemicals at rank 0. > >Then Mil Scis can choose to specialise in other fields giving them a bonus >like the Ranger's field type specialisation on dice rolls in those >specialised situations. > >Therefore if you just have skirmish you can operate as normal... however if >you choose Aerial because you are a Mil Sci that's currently flying with >his/her/its party then they may get an additional bonus if the opposition's >Mil Sci doesn't have aerial specialisation, no matter whether they are on >the ground or not. > >If both forces have the aerial specialisation then it either negates the >bonus for both forces or the bonuses still apply like under the current >skirmish rules. Um. So? What does this add to the game? There are only three different terrain types for milsci. Land, sea, and air. Your suggestion means that a player would be pressured to develop all three of these terrain types, because adventurers are constantly moving around and often operate in different environments. This doesn't support individuated milsci skill, it means that they all start looking the same. And, you can bet that if such a specialisation package were offered, then players would advance Aerial before they advanced Naval, because Aerial encounters are so much nastier, and it's easy to get hold of flying magic. Indeed, flying is the standard form of movement, for Guild adventurers. I'm firmly convinced that some adventurers have lost the power of their legs as a result of flying all of the time. Differing specialities like siege, logistics and battlefield would only be touched by players who wished to advance those skills, whereas those players who were ranking milsci because it was handy for them and their party would end up being more effective milscis. That's not good, because it means that a player who has a vision for their character gets screwed for having a plan, whereas the character who doesn't have a vision gets rewarded for playing the numbers. And, can you blame the character that plays the numbers? I don't think so. They are merely responding to the ruleset. Jim -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Jun 15 17:30:57 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id RAA02553; Thu, 15 Jun 2000 17:26:04 +1200 Received: from smtp4.ihug.co.nz (smtp4.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.5]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id RAA02548 for ; Thu, 15 Jun 2000 17:26:01 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p84-tnt2.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.245.84]) by smtp4.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id RAA04805 for ; Thu, 15 Jun 2000 17:25:47 +1200 Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 17:23:24 +1200 Message-ID: <01bfd689$d4ae0060$a9f56dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Military Scientist From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tom Mason wrote: >Isn't that the idea of ranking? Your character becomes more experienced in a >particular field thus making it easier to do something. As this is a dice >based system surely that would equate to better percentage odds. You're >right you can't blame characters from going with dice rolls because they >have spent time and effort on increasing their odds. There are lots of reasons for Ranking. The most important one is that it represents the developing story of your character. The least important one is that it provides you with a better number to roll dice to, and it's pretty irrelevant whether or not it's a dice rolling game or not. It is not enough to say that ranking is the representation of your character getting better at something. You have to determine whether or not the thing you're getting better at is legal. For example, only Namers can rank other people's counterspells. It doesn't matter that you can learn other college counterspells, only Namers can advance them ranks. And yet, it would be clearly the case that a character who could rank other colleges counterspells, and was not, themselves a Namer would be spending time and effort on increasing their odds. >If aerial is the best thing to have then increase the amount of experience >required to advance in a rank. Having Aerial specialisation is almost certain for a milsci, because they're almost always aerial at some part of the game, usually the beginning and the end, if not in the middle. What this means is that Aerial would be extremely valuable, and if you were a milsci, the pressure to develop it would be enormous. Which means that by default, the most unnatural part of milsci ends up being the second most common form of it. Now, while it is fine for players to have some pretty weird skills, it'd be nice if those weird skills were different weird skills, if it can be arranged. In effect, these specialisations are not options, they're only apparently options, because the value the game gives them is so extreme, the pressure is almost insuperable. At that point, you might as well say that the specialisation isn't actually an option, you have to take it. Because, if you don't make it compulsory, the only person who will suffer is the poor sod who decides that their character is a siege master, or a specialist in strategy or some other pretty useless area. Again, the player who has a vision for their character has lost out to the player for whom the skill means very little, but chooses to advance it, because they can. However, your suggestion is to increase the xp required to rank it. In what way? Would this be a one off cost? Because even if it were in the region of 10,000 xp, it would be a bargain. Would you raise it independantly of milsci? Fine, but then you might as well have taken it out of milsci altogether. >Also restrict how they can get sub fields by being exposed to them. Thus >someone who has never been in aerial combat can't learn it. By the time your character has 9 PC, you will have been through several aerial combats. On the other hand, the character who has taken part in a siege or strategy planning would be very uncommon, at whatever rank. This would be no limitation at all. Jim -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Jun 16 10:15:46 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id KAA08571; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 10:11:35 +1200 Received: from qedweb.qed.co.nz ([203.97.23.140] (may be forged)) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id KAA08568 for ; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 10:11:31 +1200 Received: by localhost with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 10:10:23 +1200 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 10:10:14 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain Subject: Cold Iron and Casting From: Stephen Martin To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz It seems that strictly according to the rules at the moment Namers can cast counterspells while in contact with cold iron. Also a mage who prepares a spell and comes in contact with cold iron during the cast pulse can continue to cast without penalty (provided that there aren't any other factors involved). This does not match how I think it was intended to work. Extract of rules below... Cheers, Stephen. ************************ Cold Iron A Mage may never prepare a spell or engage in Ritual Magic while in physical contact with Cold Iron. They may exercise any Racial Talent Magic, but no learnt Talent Magic. Wearing armour made of Cold Iron, or holding weapons or tools made of Cold Iron is regarded as being in physical contact. GM discretion covers all other cases. Several ounces of Cold Iron is required to cut off the mana flow. There are several possible means of circumventing the effects of cold iron: .... Namer... 17.4 The large body of General Knowledge consists of the ability to cast counterspells against all Colleges of Magic. Namers may loose a counterspell without preparing it. All... -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Jun 16 10:30:46 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id KAA08648; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 10:23:04 +1200 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (smtp2.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.8]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id KAA08645 for ; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 10:23:01 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p253-tnt2.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.245.253]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id KAA07579 for ; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 10:22:24 +1200 Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 10:17:15 +1200 Message-ID: <01bfbb96$aa0b0280$fdf56dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Cold Iron and Casting From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Stephen Martin wrote: >It seems that strictly according to the rules at the moment Namers can cast >counterspells while in contact with cold iron. >Also a mage who prepares a spell and comes in contact with cold iron during >the cast pulse can continue to cast without penalty (provided that there >aren't any other factors involved). > >This does not match how I think it was intended to work. I've seen this before. I think the way it was solved was that the rule was amended so that it read '...never prepare or cast a spell, while in physical contact with cold iron, nor may they engage in Ritual Magic.' Jim. >Extract of rules below... > >Cheers, Stephen. >************************ > >Cold Iron >A Mage may never prepare a spell or engage in Ritual Magic while in physical >contact with Cold Iron. >They may exercise any Racial Talent Magic, but no learnt Talent Magic. >Wearing armour made of Cold >Iron, or holding weapons or tools made of Cold Iron is regarded as being in >physical contact. GM discretion >covers all other cases. Several ounces of Cold Iron is required to cut off >the mana flow. >There are several possible means of circumventing the effects of cold iron: >.... > >Namer... 17.4 >The large body of General Knowledge consists of the ability to cast >counterspells against all Colleges >of Magic. >Namers may loose a counterspell without preparing it. All... > > >-- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- > -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Jun 16 12:15:52 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id MAA09404; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 12:11:39 +1200 Received: from qedweb.qed.co.nz ([203.97.23.140] (may be forged)) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id MAA09401 for ; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 12:11:28 +1200 Received: by localhost with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 12:10:18 +1200 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 12:10:12 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain Subject: RE: Cold Iron and Casting From: Stephen Martin To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz This would resolve the problem perfectly, unfortunately the rules I included below are from the current rulebook. We can fast track the fix at the next gods meeting, but until the next rulebook comes out my advice to GMs is to tell any players attempting to take advantage of this loophole to forget it. If they refuse to listen then imbed a cold iron weapon in them, the rules clearly state that this will disrupt any magical action :). Cheers, Stephen. > -----Original Message----- > From: Jim Arona [SMTP:jimarona@ihug.co.nz] > Sent: Friday, 12 May 2000 10:17 > > Stephen Martin wrote: > > >It seems that strictly according to the rules at the moment Namers can > cast > >counterspells while in contact with cold iron. > >Also a mage who prepares a spell and comes in contact with cold iron > during > >the cast pulse can continue to cast without penalty (provided that there > >aren't any other factors involved). > > > >This does not match how I think it was intended to work. > > > I've seen this before. I think the way it was solved was that the rule was > amended so that it read > '...never prepare or cast a spell, while in physical contact with cold > iron, > nor may they engage in Ritual Magic.' > > Jim. > > >Extract of rules below... > > > >Cheers, Stephen. > >************************ > > > >Cold Iron > >A Mage may never prepare a spell or engage in Ritual Magic while in > physical > >contact with Cold Iron. > >They may exercise any Racial Talent Magic, but no learnt Talent Magic. > >Wearing armour made of Cold > >Iron, or holding weapons or tools made of Cold Iron is regarded as being > in > >physical contact. GM discretion > >covers all other cases. Several ounces of Cold Iron is required to cut > off > >the mana flow. > >There are several possible means of circumventing the effects of cold > iron: > >.... > > > >Namer... 17.4 > >The large body of General Knowledge consists of the ability to cast > >counterspells against all Colleges > >of Magic. > >Namers may loose a counterspell without preparing it. All... > > > -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Jun 16 12:31:00 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id MAA09514; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 12:21:28 +1200 Received: from defacto.peace.co.nz (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id MAA09511 for ; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 12:21:24 +1200 Message-ID: <39496EE3.52F849AD@peace.com> Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 12:03:47 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Cold Iron and Casting From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Stephen Martin wrote: > If they refuse to listen then imbed a cold iron weapon in them, the rules > clearly state that this will disrupt any magical action :). I believe that making their heads explode will also work. -- _/_/ Peace Software New Zealand Ltd Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com _/ Martin Dickson Fax : +64-9-373-0401 Analyst Phone: +64-9-373-0400 -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Jun 16 12:31:40 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id MAA09532; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 12:24:04 +1200 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (smtp2.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.8]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id MAA09528 for ; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 12:24:01 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p253-tnt2.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.245.253]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id MAA23347 for ; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 12:23:21 +1200 Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 12:18:10 +1200 Message-ID: <01bfd728$5afa9ae0$fdf56dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Cold Iron and Casting From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz >This would resolve the problem perfectly, unfortunately the rules I included >below are from the current rulebook. >We can fast track the fix at the next gods meeting, but until the next >rulebook comes out my advice to GMs is to tell any players attempting to >take advantage of this loophole to forget it. >If they refuse to listen then imbed a cold iron weapon in them, the rules >clearly state that this will disrupt any magical action :). Players or characters? -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Jun 16 13:01:12 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id MAA09780; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 12:53:50 +1200 Received: from defacto.peace.co.nz (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id MAA09775 for ; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 12:53:47 +1200 Message-ID: <39497678.DFEECD14@peace.com> Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 12:36:08 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Cold Iron and Casting From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Jim Arona wrote: > >If they refuse to listen then imbed a cold iron weapon in them, the rules > >clearly state that this will disrupt any magical action :). > > Players or characters? Whichever is annoying you most. Jono used to have a big marble die that would have been good for this too... "You're bothering me boy... take D6 damage..." *thunk* -- _/_/ Peace Software New Zealand Ltd Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com _/ Martin Dickson Fax : +64-9-373-0401 Analyst Phone: +64-9-373-0400 -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Jun 16 13:02:44 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id MAA09736; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 12:46:43 +1200 Received: from fclaklmr02.fcl.co.nz ([202.14.23.202] (may be forged)) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id MAA09733 for ; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 12:46:39 +1200 Received: from falaklex00.falum.co.nz (10.8.1.28) by fclaklmr02.fcl.co.nz Friday, June 16, 2000 12:41:34 Message-ID: Received: by falaklex00.fcl.co.nz with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 12:45:49 +1200 Message-ID: <311B3C3DD32FD311B33900805F770A72010B15BE@falaklex00.fcl.co.nz> Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 12:45:44 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01BFD72C.3752F960" Subject: RE: Cold Iron and Casting From: "Andrew Withy (FAL AKL)" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01BFD72C.3752F960 Content-Type: text/plain > >This would resolve the problem perfectly, unfortunately the rules I > included > >below are from the current rulebook. > >We can fast track the fix at the next gods meeting, but until the next > >rulebook comes out my advice to GMs is to tell any players attempting to > >take advantage of this loophole to forget it. > >If they refuse to listen then imbed a cold iron weapon in them, the rules > >clearly state that this will disrupt any magical action :). > > > Players or characters? > > > If a player performs a magical action, we as GMs are in deep trouble... ------_=_NextPart_001_01BFD72C.3752F960 Content-Type: text/html RE: Cold Iron and Casting

    >This would resolve the problem perfectly, unfortunately the rules I
    included
    >below are from the current rulebook.
    >We can fast track the fix at the next gods meeting, but until the next
    >rulebook comes out my advice to GMs is to tell any players attempting to
    >take advantage of this loophole to forget it.
    >If they refuse to listen then imbed a cold iron weapon in them, the rules
    >clearly state that this will disrupt any magical action :).


    Players or characters?



    If a player performs a magical action, we as GMs are in deep trouble...

------_=_NextPart_001_01BFD72C.3752F960-- -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Jun 16 13:15:45 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id NAA09935; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 13:07:31 +1200 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (smtp2.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.8]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id NAA09932 for ; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 13:07:28 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p253-tnt2.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.245.253]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id NAA27856 for ; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 13:06:48 +1200 Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 13:01:38 +1200 Message-ID: <01bfd72e$6d31a220$fdf56dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Cold Iron and Casting From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz >> Players or characters? > >Whichever is annoying you most. Jono used to have a big marble die that would >have been good for this too... > >"You're bothering me boy... take D6 damage..." >*thunk* He was far too fond of that die.... -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Jun 16 13:32:13 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id NAA10062; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 13:18:55 +1200 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (smtp2.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.8]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id NAA10059 for ; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 13:18:52 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p253-tnt2.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.245.253]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id NAA29042 for ; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 13:18:11 +1200 Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 13:13:02 +1200 Message-ID: <01bfd730$04ae5840$fdf56dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00A6_01BFD794.99E33840" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Cold Iron and Casting From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00A6_01BFD794.99E33840 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >This would resolve the problem perfectly, unfortunately the rules I=20 included=20 >below are from the current rulebook.=20 >We can fast track the fix at the next gods meeting, but until = the next=20 >rulebook comes out my advice to GMs is to tell any players = attempting to=20 >take advantage of this loophole to forget it.=20 >If they refuse to listen then imbed a cold iron weapon in them, = the rules=20 >clearly state that this will disrupt any magical action :).=20 =20 =20 =20 Players or characters?=20 =20 =20 If a player performs a magical action, we as GMs are in deep = trouble...=20 =20 The power rests with us, always. If the players are taking = magical actions, the world's in deep trouble.... =20 =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_00A6_01BFD794.99E33840 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Cold Iron and = Casting

    >This would resolve the = problem perfectly,=20 unfortunately the rules I
    included
    >below are from=20 the current rulebook.
    >We can fast=20 track the fix at the next gods meeting, but until the = next=20
    >rulebook comes out my advice = to GMs is=20 to tell any players attempting to
    >take advantage of this loophole to forget = it.=20
    >If they refuse to listen = then imbed a=20 cold iron weapon in them, the rules
    >clearly state that this will disrupt any magical = action=20 :).


    Players or characters? =
     

    If a player = performs a magical=20 action, we as GMs are in deep trouble...

    The power rests with us, = always. If the=20 players are taking magical actions, the world's in deep=20 trouble....

     

------=_NextPart_000_00A6_01BFD794.99E33840-- -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Jun 26 20:29:37 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id UAA01565; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 20:13:21 +1200 Received: from smtp4.ihug.co.nz (smtp4.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.5]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id UAA01562 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 20:13:17 +1200 Received: from ihug.co.nz (p274-apx1.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.173.193.20]) by smtp4.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id UAA27842 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 20:13:01 +1200 Message-ID: <39571173.567013E3@ihug.co.nz> Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 20:16:51 +1200 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------09FC9C5D2F28A41E8FDF2320" Subject: Web Of Flames From: scott whitaker To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz --------------09FC9C5D2F28A41E8FDF2320 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think this spell should be put back into the fire college. There was no valid reason for dropping and it is most dfinitely not an overly poerful spell. It was the only spell that allowed a Fire Mage to use magic to trap an opponent, albeit it was relatively easy to break. As fire is still in probation this correction of a change made foe changes sake will be easy to make. Scott Whitaker --------------09FC9C5D2F28A41E8FDF2320 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think this spell should be put back into the
fire college.
There was no valid reason for dropping and it is
most dfinitely not an overly poerful spell.  It
was the only spell that allowed a Fire Mage to use
magic to trap an opponent, albeit it was
relatively easy to break.
As fire is still in probation this correction of a
change made foe changes sake will be easy to make.

Scott Whitaker

--------------09FC9C5D2F28A41E8FDF2320-- -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Jun 26 23:58:50 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id XAA03074; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 23:45:03 +1200 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (smtp2.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.8]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id XAA03065 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 23:44:59 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p126-tnt6.akl.ihug.co.nz [216.100.154.126]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id XAA23734 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 23:44:37 +1200 Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 23:37:48 +1200 Message-ID: <01bfdf62$f4f5c600$7e9a64d8@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_002F_01BFDFC7.8A2AA600" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Web Of Flames From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002F_01BFDFC7.8A2AA600 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -----Original Message----- From: scott whitaker=20 =20 I think this spell should be put back into the=20 fire college.=20 There was no valid reason for dropping and it is=20 most dfinitely not an overly poerful spell. Yes, it was overly powerful. It did several things at once that made = it far too powerful. 1) It was an half damage spell. It had an EM of 200, and it was = pretty hard to ignore in the face of low EM, high effect spells. 2) It inflicted damage every pulse 3) It impeded movement, which is hard to rationalise with fire, = seeing as it's such an intangible element. 4) It was, quite simply, the best web in the game. It was the only = one that increased in damage capacity as you increased in Rank. All of = the others had a frozen damage capacity of 10. Why Web of Fire was so = effective a web is beyond me.=20 It=20 was the only spell that allowed a Fire Mage to use=20 magic to trap an opponent, albeit it was=20 relatively easy to break.=20 The point is, however, that fire isn't a great trapping element. = It's certainly reasonable to deny someone position, because they're = concerned about taking damage. It's not reasonable to have them stuck in = the damage, so that they can't get out. This doesn't suggest a web spell. Further, simply because the college existed with an entrapment spell = in the past is no reason to alter it so that it has one, now.=20 =20 As fire is still in probation this correction of a=20 change made foe changes sake will be easy to make.=20 =20 It's kind of irrelevant if it is in probation. The important = consideration is whether or not the college can support such a spell, = and bureaucratic considerations like whether or not it can easily be = done don't warrant thinking about until such time as the support can be = shown. Jim Scott Whitaker =20 ------=_NextPart_000_002F_01BFDFC7.8A2AA600 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 scott whitaker
 
I think this spell should = be put=20 back into the
fire college.
There was no valid reason for = dropping=20 and it is
most dfinitely not an overly poerful = spell. Yes, it was overly powerful. It did several = things at=20 once that made it far too powerful. 1) It was an half = damage spell. It=20 had an EM of 200, and it was pretty hard to ignore in the face of = low EM,=20 high effect spells. 2) It inflicted damage every = pulse  3) It impeded movement, which is hard to rationalise with = fire,=20 seeing as it's such an intangible element.  4) It was, quite simply, the best web in the game. It was = the only=20 one that increased in damage capacity as you increased in Rank. All = of the=20 others had a frozen damage capacity of 10. Why Web of Fire was so = effective=20 a web is beyond me.  =20 It
was the only spell that allowed a Fire Mage to use
magic = to trap=20 an opponent, albeit it was
relatively easy to break. =   The=20 point is, however, that fire isn't a great trapping element. It's = certainly=20 reasonable to deny someone position, because they're concerned about = taking=20 damage. It's not reasonable to have them stuck in the damage, so = that they=20 can't get out. This=20 doesn't suggest a web spell.  Further,=20 simply because the college existed with an entrapment spell in the = past is=20 no reason to alter it so that it has one, now.  
As=20 fire is still in probation this correction of a
change made foe = changes=20 sake will be easy to make.     It's=20 kind of irrelevant if it is in probation. The important = consideration is=20 whether or not the college can support such a spell, and = bureaucratic=20 considerations like whether or not it can easily be done don't = warrant=20 thinking about until such time as the support can be = shown. Jim

Scott Whitaker

------=_NextPart_000_002F_01BFDFC7.8A2AA600-- -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Jun 27 00:13:58 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id AAA03258; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 00:10:30 +1200 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (smtp2.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.8]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id AAA03255 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 00:10:24 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p25-tnt6.akl.ihug.co.nz [216.100.154.25]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id AAA25094 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 00:10:01 +1200 Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 00:03:10 +1200 Message-ID: <01bfdf66$8096fbe0$199a64d8@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000E_01BFDFCB.15CBDBE0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Web Of Flames From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01BFDFCB.15CBDBE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -----Original Message----- From: scott whitaker=20 =20 I think this spell should be put back into the=20 fire college.=20 There was no valid reason for dropping and it is=20 most dfinitely not an overly poerful spell.=20 O, and 5) It was potentially a multi target spell, as well, capturing and = inflicting damage against as many hex sized creatures as the caster had = Ranks. Jim. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01BFDFCB.15CBDBE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 scott whitaker
 
I think this spell should = be put=20 back into the
fire college.
There was no valid reason for = dropping=20 and it is
most dfinitely not an overly poerful = spell.  O, and 5) It was potentially = a multi=20 target spell, as well, capturing and inflicting damage against as = many hex=20 sized creatures as the caster had Ranks. Jim.  ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01BFDFCB.15CBDBE0-- -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jun 28 08:58:46 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id IAA15338; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 08:55:43 +1200 Received: from smtp4.ihug.co.nz (smtp4.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.5]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id IAA15335 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 08:55:38 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p147-tnt6.akl.ihug.co.nz [216.100.154.147]) by smtp4.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id IAA16425 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 08:54:29 +1200 Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 08:47:23 +1200 Message-ID: <01bfe078$e5f1f540$939a64d8@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0013_01BFE0DD.7B26D540" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Warding Dragonflames From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01BFE0DD.7B26D540 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This came up in a game. In the new Fire College, Dragonflames cannot be = Warded.=20 I have looked at the spell for a couple of days, now, and I cannot see = why it should not be capable of being stored in that way. I proprose = that it be changed so that it can be. Jim ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01BFE0DD.7B26D540 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This came up in a game. In the new Fire College, = Dragonflames=20 cannot be Warded.
I have looked at the spell for a couple of days, = now, and I=20 cannot see why it should not be capable of being stored in that way. I = proprose=20 that it be changed so that it can be.
Jim
------=_NextPart_000_0013_01BFE0DD.7B26D540-- -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jun 28 09:14:05 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id JAA15414; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 09:07:51 +1200 Received: from fclaklmr02.fcl.co.nz ([202.14.23.202] (may be forged)) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id JAA15411 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 09:07:47 +1200 Received: from falaklex00.falum.co.nz (10.8.1.28) by fclaklmr02.fcl.co.nz Wednesday, June 28, 2000 09:02:05 Message-ID: Received: by falaklex00.fcl.co.nz with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 09:06:17 +1200 Message-ID: <311B3C3DD32FD311B33900805F770A72010B1634@falaklex00.fcl.co.nz> Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 09:06:16 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01BFE07B.885C3F20" Subject: RE: Warding Dragonflames From: "Andrew Withy (FAL AKL)" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01BFE07B.885C3F20 Content-Type: text/plain The spell allows the Adept to breathe fire. This is different from producing a cone effect that comes from the Adept's location, or similar. If a spell is warded, there is no Adept, and even if you take the centre of the ward as the point of the Adept (as normal), it has no mouth to breathe. It also limits one of the most damaging (and multi-target) spells in the game, which is fine by me. On the other hand, a potion effect makes some sense - you drink the potion, then breathe flame. (As opposed to most damage spells, where you drink the poition, then fall down dead). Andrew > -----Original Message----- > From: Jim Arona [SMTP:jimarona@ihug.co.nz] > Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2000 8:47 AM > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Subject: Re: Warding Dragonflames > > This came up in a game. In the new Fire College, Dragonflames cannot be > Warded. > I have looked at the spell for a couple of days, now, and I cannot see why > it should not be capable of being stored in that way. I proprose that it > be changed so that it can be. > Jim ------_=_NextPart_001_01BFE07B.885C3F20 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Warding Dragonflames

The spell allows the = Adept to breathe fire. This is different from producing a cone effect = that comes from the Adept's location, or similar. If a spell is warded, = there is no Adept, and even if you take the centre of the ward as the = point of the Adept (as normal), it has no mouth to breathe.

It also limits one = of the most damaging (and multi-target) spells in the game, which is = fine by me.

On the other hand, a = potion effect makes some sense - you drink the potion, then breathe = flame. (As opposed to most damage spells, where you drink the poition, = then fall down dead).

Andrew

    -----Original Message-----
    From:   Jim Arona [SMTP:jimarona@ihug.co.nz]
    Sent:   Wednesday, June 28, 2000 8:47 AM
    To:     dq@dq.sf.org.nz
    Subject:       = Re: Warding Dragonflames

    This came up in a game. In the new = Fire College, Dragonflames cannot be Warded.=20
    I have looked at the spell for a = couple of days, now, and I cannot see why it should not be capable of = being stored in that way. I proprose that it be changed so that it can = be.

    Jim

------_=_NextPart_001_01BFE07B.885C3F20-- -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jun 28 09:28:59 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id JAA15545; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 09:20:42 +1200 Received: from smtp4.ihug.co.nz (smtp4.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.5]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id JAA15542 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 09:20:37 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p147-tnt6.akl.ihug.co.nz [216.100.154.147]) by smtp4.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id JAA19176 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 09:19:27 +1200 Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 09:12:26 +1200 Message-ID: <01bfe07c$656ef400$939a64d8@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_003C_01BFE0E0.FAA3D400" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Hellfire From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003C_01BFE0E0.FAA3D400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable And, upon consideration, I think the range formula for Hellfire is = wrong.=20 I have no problems with a five foot per Rank increment, but the spell = ought to extend out to something like 30 feet at Rank 0, rather than 10. = Otherwise, you would never use it to do anything except start fires at = low Ranks One might, I suppose, argue that it's a spell that you don't cast at low = Ranks, but it strikes me as being contrary to the nature of a spell that = is practically uncastable until you have ranked it beyond 4. The Base = Chance of the spell acts as enough of a control to inhibit casting it at = low Ranks. If the range formula says that there's no point in casting = the spell, then there is no tension generated should the Adept wish to = cast the spell when it is at low Ranks. Ultimately, this would make the spell's range 130 feet at Rank 20, as = opposed to 110, which I don't see as much of a bonus, expecially in view = of the other damage spells that have ranges in increments of 15 feet per = Rank. And, if it does not have this added fillip, then no Fire Mage will = take it in preference to Dragonflames. The range equation for = Dragonflames is greater than that of Hellfire. Again, there is no = pressure to choose Hellfire. The subtraction to MR, the invisible effect and the multi-targetting are = the only points of valuable difference between the two. It could be argued that a Wiccan has more movement options available, = and can fly at range and blow 12 kinds of crap out of the Fire Mage, = because, Rank for Rank, they stand beyond the area of effect of = Dragonflames, but then the Fire Mage has a bolt spell which has enormous = range, i.e. Bolt of Fire. At 25ft + 25ft per Rank, there is no other = harm inflicting magic in the game to touch it. And, the Fire Mage can = cast Fire Shield on themselves, and resist harm from Hellfire. In any case, the point is, before I ramble from it again, is that = Hellfire should probably have a reasonable beginning range, rather than = 10 feet. Jim ------=_NextPart_000_003C_01BFE0E0.FAA3D400 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
And, upon consideration, I think the = range=20 formula for Hellfire is wrong.
I have no problems with a five foot = per Rank=20 increment, but the spell ought to extend out to something like 30 feet = at Rank=20 0, rather than 10. Otherwise, you would never use it to do anything = except start=20 fires at low Ranks
One might, I suppose, argue that = it's a spell=20 that you don't cast at low Ranks, but it strikes me as being contrary to = the=20 nature of a spell that is practically uncastable until you have ranked = it beyond=20 4. The Base Chance of the spell acts as enough of a control to inhibit = casting=20 it at low Ranks. If the range formula says that there's no point in = casting the=20 spell, then there is no tension generated should the Adept wish to cast = the=20 spell when it is at low Ranks.
Ultimately, this would make the = spell's range=20 130 feet at Rank 20, as opposed to 110, which I don't see as much of a = bonus,=20 expecially in view of the other damage spells that have ranges in = increments of=20 15 feet per Rank. And, if it does not have this added fillip, then no = Fire Mage=20 will take it in preference to Dragonflames. The range equation for = Dragonflames=20 is greater than that of Hellfire. Again, there is no pressure to choose=20 Hellfire.
The = subtraction to MR, the=20 invisible effect and the multi-targetting are the only points of = valuable=20 difference between the two.
It could be argued that a Wiccan has = more=20 movement options available, and can fly at range and blow 12 kinds of = crap out=20 of the Fire Mage, because, Rank for Rank, they stand beyond the area of = effect=20 of Dragonflames, but then the Fire Mage has a bolt spell which has = enormous=20 range, i.e. Bolt of Fire. At 25ft + 25ft per Rank, there is no other = harm=20 inflicting magic in the game to touch it. And, the Fire Mage can cast = Fire=20 Shield on themselves, and resist harm from Hellfire.
In any case, the point is, before I = ramble from=20 it again, is that Hellfire should probably have a reasonable beginning = range,=20 rather than 10 feet.
Jim
------=_NextPart_000_003C_01BFE0E0.FAA3D400-- -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jun 28 09:44:44 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id JAA15639; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 09:35:02 +1200 Received: from smtp4.ihug.co.nz (smtp4.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.5]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id JAA15636 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 09:34:57 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p147-tnt6.akl.ihug.co.nz [216.100.154.147]) by smtp4.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id JAA21015 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 09:33:46 +1200 Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 09:26:46 +1200 Message-ID: <01bfe07e$65c873c0$939a64d8@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_005C_01BFE0E2.FAFD53C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Warding Dragonflames Oops From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_005C_01BFE0E2.FAFD53C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bugger. I just checked, and the spell says that it does allow the Adept = to breathe fire. And, it says 'the cone issues from the Adept's mouth'.=20 Dayum. Jim=20 =20 The spell allows the Adept to breathe fire. This is different from = producing a cone effect that comes from the Adept's location, or = similar. If a spell is warded, there is no Adept, and even if you take = the centre of the ward as the point of the Adept (as normal), it has no = mouth to breathe. =20 It also limits one of the most damaging (and multi-target) spells in = the game, which is fine by me.=20 =20 On the other hand, a potion effect makes some sense - you drink the = potion, then breathe flame. (As opposed to most damage spells, where you = drink the poition, then fall down dead). =20 Andrew=20 =20 -----Original Message-----=20 From: Jim Arona [SMTP:jimarona@ihug.co.nz]=20 Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2000 8:47 AM=20 To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz=20 Subject: Re: Warding Dragonflames=20 =20 This came up in a game. In the new Fire College, Dragonflames = cannot be Warded.=20 I have looked at the spell for a couple of days, now, and I = cannot see why it should not be capable of being stored in that way. I = proprose that it be changed so that it can be. =20 Jim=20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_005C_01BFE0E2.FAFD53C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Warding = Dragonflames
 
Bugger. I just checked, and the = spell says that=20 it does allow the Adept to breathe fire. And, it says 'the cone = issues from=20 the Adept's mouth'.
Dayum.
Jim
 

The spell allows the = Adept to=20 breathe fire. This is different from producing a cone effect that = comes from=20 the Adept's location, or similar. If a spell is warded, there is no = Adept,=20 and even if you take the centre of the ward as the point of the = Adept (as=20 normal), it has no mouth to breathe.

It also limits one of = the most=20 damaging (and multi-target) spells in the game, which is fine by = me.=20

On the other hand, a = potion effect=20 makes some sense - you drink the potion, then breathe flame. (As = opposed to=20 most damage spells, where you drink the poition, then fall down=20 dead).

Andrew=20

    -----Original Message----- =
    From:   = Jim Arona = [SMTP:jimarona@ihug.co.nz]=20
    Sent:   = Wednesday, June 28, 2000 8:47 AM =
    To:     = dq@dq.sf.org.nz
    Subject:       =20 Re: Warding Dragonflames

    This came up in a game. In the = new Fire=20 College, Dragonflames cannot be Warded.
    I have looked at the spell for a couple of days, now, = and I=20 cannot see why it should not be capable of being stored in that = way. I=20 proprose that it be changed so that it can be.

    Jim =

------=_NextPart_000_005C_01BFE0E2.FAFD53C0-- -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jun 28 09:47:01 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id JAA15627; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 09:31:21 +1200 Received: from smtp4.ihug.co.nz (smtp4.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.5]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id JAA15624 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 09:31:15 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p147-tnt6.akl.ihug.co.nz [216.100.154.147]) by smtp4.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id JAA20550 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 09:30:04 +1200 Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 09:23:04 +1200 Message-ID: <01bfe07d$e1439620$939a64d8@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_004B_01BFE0E2.76787620" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Warding Dragonflames From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_004B_01BFE0E2.76787620 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 The spell allows the Adept to breathe fire. This is different from = producing a cone effect that comes from the Adept's location, or = similar. If a spell is warded, there is no Adept, and even if you take = the centre of the ward as the point of the Adept (as normal), it has no = mouth to breathe. =20 It also limits one of the most damaging (and multi-target) spells in = the game, which is fine by me.=20 =20 On the other hand, a potion effect makes some sense - you drink the = potion, then breathe flame. (As opposed to most damage spells, where you = drink the poition, then fall down dead). =20 Yeah, well, I looked at that, and two things were completely obvious = to me. =20 1) The spell is not storable in a potion. =20 2) The description says the 'flames issue from the Adept's mouth'.=20 =20 This is like saying that a 'bolt flies from the Adept's hand...' It = seems to me that the suggestion here is that the there is no internal = change to the casting, i.e. they're not changing themselves so that they = can breath fire. What is happening is that they are casting a spell that = emanates from that particular body part. =20 But, in any case, my justification above is merely pettifogging and = quibbling.=20 =20 Your main point is that the spell is multi-target and does an = hideous amount of damage, and therefore it is a bad thing to put in a = ward.=20 =20 Well, yes, it does do a lot of damage, but really, so what? = Triggered Wards just go off, they never fail, backfire, double or = triple. They work like potions. The maximum amount of damage you can = take from a Warded Dragonflames is 70 points. Admittedly, the area of = effect is pretty huge, but again, so what? =20 The Fire College's biggest limitation is that it has little other to = offer it's members than damage. Most other colleges can do a few rather = nifty things with Wards, aside from causing damage, and that's fine. = But, given that the strength of the college is burning, then it seems to = me completely reasonable that it be wardable. =20 Jim =20 ------=_NextPart_000_004B_01BFE0E2.76787620 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Warding = Dragonflames

The spell allows the = Adept to=20 breathe fire. This is different from producing a cone effect that = comes from=20 the Adept's location, or similar. If a spell is warded, there is no = Adept,=20 and even if you take the centre of the ward as the point of the = Adept (as=20 normal), it has no mouth to breathe.

It also limits one of = the most=20 damaging (and multi-target) spells in the game, which is fine by = me.=20

On the other hand, a = potion effect=20 makes some sense - you drink the potion, then breathe flame. (As = opposed to=20 most damage spells, where you drink the poition, then fall down=20 dead).

Yeah, well, I looked at that, and = two things=20 were completely obvious to me.

1) The spell is not storable in a=20 potion.

2) The description says the = 'flames issue from=20 the Adept's mouth'.

This is like saying that a 'bolt = flies from=20 the Adept's hand...' It seems to me that the suggestion here is that = the=20 there is no internal change to the casting, i.e. they're not = changing=20 themselves so that they can breath fire. What is happening is that = they are=20 casting a spell that emanates from that particular body = part.

But, in any case, my justification = above is=20 merely pettifogging and quibbling.

Your main point is that the spell = is=20 multi-target and does an hideous amount of damage, and therefore it = is a bad=20 thing to put in a ward.

Well, yes, it does do a lot of = damage, but=20 really, so what? Triggered Wards just go off, they never fail, = backfire,=20 double or triple. They work like potions. The maximum amount of = damage you=20 can take from a Warded Dragonflames is 70 points. Admittedly, the = area of=20 effect is pretty huge, but again, so what?

The Fire College's biggest = limitation is that=20 it has little other to offer it's members than damage. Most other = colleges=20 can do a few rather nifty things with Wards, aside from causing = damage, and=20 that's fine. But, given that the strength of the college is burning, = then it=20 seems to me completely reasonable that it be wardable.

Jim

------=_NextPart_000_004B_01BFE0E2.76787620-- -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jun 28 10:14:06 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id KAA15846; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 10:03:57 +1200 Received: from smtp4.ihug.co.nz (smtp4.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.5]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id KAA15843 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 10:03:51 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p147-tnt6.akl.ihug.co.nz [216.100.154.147]) by smtp4.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id KAA24383 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 10:02:38 +1200 Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 09:55:37 +1200 Message-ID: <01bfe082$6debbf40$939a64d8@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0071_01BFE0E7.03209F40" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Lesser Efreeti From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0071_01BFE0E7.03209F40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hey, this Ritual says that a Lesser Efreeti can't be banished, if it's = bearing its caster.=20 How naff is that.=20 I think it should be banishable. It's got more Magic Resistance of any = mount that I've ever seen, why in God's name should it be immune to = banishment, just because it's got someone on its back? I think that sentence should be removed from the description Jim ------=_NextPart_000_0071_01BFE0E7.03209F40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Warding = Dragonflames
Hey, this Ritual says that a Lesser = Efreeti=20 can't be banished, if it's bearing its caster.
How naff is = that.=20
I think it should be banishable. It's got more Magic = Resistance of any mount that I've ever seen, why in God's name should it = be=20 immune to banishment, just because it's got someone on its = back?
I think that sentence should be removed from the=20 description 
Jim 
------=_NextPart_000_0071_01BFE0E7.03209F40-- -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jun 28 11:13:24 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id LAA16263; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 11:13:18 +1200 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (smtp2.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.8]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id LAA16260 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 11:13:15 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p98-tnt2.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.245.98]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id LAA29249 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 11:12:02 +1200 Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 11:04:57 +1200 Message-ID: <01bfe08c$1e645b80$62f56dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000C_01BFE0F0.B3993B80" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Warding Dragonflames From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BFE0F0.B3993B80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It also limits one of the most damaging (and multi-target) spells in the = game, which is fine by me.=20 =20 Actually, I was just thinking about Andrew's post above, and I = reckon that unless wards can actually be lethal, then what is the point = in putting damage spells in them? =20 I mean, if they only time you put a damage spell into a ward and = you're not potentially killing someone that you don't want to pass over = that ward, then it's an almost complete waste of time.=20 =20 All you've done is to give the people that crossed the ward some = idea of your resources, and made them a little tired. =20 Jim =20 ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BFE0F0.B3993B80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Warding = Dragonflames

It also limits one of = the most=20 damaging (and multi-target) spells in the game, which is fine by = me.=20

Actually, I was just thinking about Andrew's post above, and I = reckon=20 that unless wards can actually be lethal, then what is the point in = putting=20 damage spells in them?

I mean, if they only time you put a damage spell into a ward and = you're=20 not potentially killing someone that you don't want to pass over = that ward,=20 then it's an almost complete waste of time.

All you've done is to give the = people that=20 crossed the ward some idea of your resources, and made them a little = tired.

Jim

------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BFE0F0.B3993B80-- -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jun 28 11:30:02 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id LAA16339; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 11:20:15 +1200 Received: from defacto.peace.co.nz (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id LAA16336 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 11:20:12 +1200 Message-ID: <39593212.1B75B4B3@peace.com> Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 11:00:34 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Warding Dragonflames From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Jim Arona wrote: > All you've done is to give the people that crossed the ward > some idea of your resources, and made them a little tired. > Or given them an unambiguous warning. :) -- _/_/ Peace Software New Zealand Ltd Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com _/ Martin Dickson Fax : +64-9-373-0401 Analyst Phone: +64-9-373-0400 -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jun 28 11:31:36 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id LAA16376; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 11:26:40 +1200 Received: from qedweb.qed.co.nz ([203.97.23.140] (may be forged)) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id LAA16373 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 11:26:36 +1200 Received: by localhost with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 11:24:00 +1200 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 11:23:57 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain Subject: RE: Warding Dragonflames - why ward non-lethal damage spells?... From: Stephen Martin To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wearing them down is worthwhile, it means there's less damage that you have to inflict in person. Multiple wards with minimum areas are best, they either charge through them taking the damage and end up fighting you while tired, or they spend time and fatigue counterspelling the wards on the way in (less FT for the Namer means less of your minions being compelled to fight against you). The other benefit is that you can pay other mages to put up defensive wards, so that your protections are against multiple colleges. So when the person who is immune to Fire damage charges into your home expecting to laugh off any wards, the Necrosis will slow them down. > -----Original Message----- > From: Jim Arona [SMTP:jimarona@ihug.co.nz] > Sent: Wednesday, 28 June 2000 11:05 > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Subject: Re: Warding Dragonflames > > It also limits one of the most damaging (and multi-target) spells in > the game, which is fine by me. > > Actually, I was just thinking about Andrew's post above, and I > reckon that unless wards can actually be lethal, then what is the point in > putting damage spells in them? > > I mean, if they only time you put a damage spell into a ward and > you're not potentially killing someone that you don't want to pass over > that ward, then it's an almost complete waste of time. > > All you've done is to give the people that crossed the ward some > idea of your resources, and made them a little tired. > > Jim > -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jun 28 12:00:05 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id LAA16528; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 11:46:11 +1200 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (smtp2.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.8]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id LAA16525 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 11:46:06 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p98-tnt2.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.245.98]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id LAA01075 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 11:44:52 +1200 Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 11:37:53 +1200 Message-ID: <01bfe090$b7324260$62f56dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Warding Dragonflames From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz >Jim Arona wrote: > >> All you've done is to give the people that crossed the ward >> some idea of your resources, and made them a little tired. >> >Or given them an unambiguous warning. :) Well, I suppose, ultimately, that's why warding a damage spell is so poked. I mean, if you set off a ward with a high Ranked Bolt of Energy in it, you know your up against an E&E mage, and probably a pretty good one. Whatever else that ward does, it won't kill you, unless you're some kind of small animal, and in any case, you have to have failed to resist. So, now, you know what sort of counterspells to cast, and so on. Yeah, sure, as a DM, you could get your NPC to hire someone to ward, just so that the PCs might be decieved into thinking that the aforementioned NPC was an E&E, but the logic's a little too twisted for it to apply for many games. Eventually, the suspension of disbelief will break. And, again, the max damage that Dragonflames could inflict is 70 points worth, which is, undoubtedly, a fair bloody whack of damage. That would kill most players, if, and only if, they fail to resist. But, at high levels (which is where you ought to meet such a Ward), you need to have magic of this devastation, because there are PCs out there that will take that damage on the chin, and that's if they fail to resist. A max EN, max FT human with a Rank 20 Strength of Stone cast on EN and FT will be able to take 68 points of damage, before they lose consciousness. And, with a Rank 20 Dragonflames Ward, you have a 30% chance of inflicting damage that high. If the human is a Mind Mage with significant Ranks in Resist Temp will still have all of their EN left, whatever damage is rolled. Jim. -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jun 28 12:02:44 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id LAA16596; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 11:55:07 +1200 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (smtp2.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.8]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id LAA16572 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 11:55:01 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p98-tnt2.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.245.98]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id LAA02282 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 11:53:45 +1200 Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 11:46:47 +1200 Message-ID: <01bfe091$f57aaac0$62f56dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Warding Dragonflames - why ward non-lethal damage spells?... From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz >Wearing them down is worthwhile, it means there's less damage that you have >to inflict in person. No, what happens is that the PCs set off the Ward, and then decide whether or not they think the situation is too dicey. If you were setting up a defensive position, which is what wards are, then you want them to defeat your enemy before you have to deal with them, personally. >Multiple wards with minimum areas are best, they either charge through them >taking the damage and end up fighting you while tired, or they spend time >and fatigue counterspelling the wards on the way in (less FT for the Namer >means less of your minions being compelled to fight against you). Nah. Practical experience doesn't bear this out. Very few Namers have Compelling Obedience. Most of them are really fighters with conditionally high Magic Resistances. And, given that when you're a fighter, you're constantly looking for something to spend your FT on, then using counterspells to switch off Wards is an excellent use. Yes, there are a few Namers that have Ranks in Compelling Obedience. But, they usually have such appallingly high Ranks in it, that all they need is two points of FT to take out huge wadges of your minions. >The other benefit is that you can pay other mages to put up defensive wards, >so that your protections are against multiple colleges. So when the person >who is immune to Fire damage charges into your home expecting to laugh off >any wards, the Necrosis will slow them down. Yes. I've seen this done. It's okay, the first couple of times you see it, but, really, it gets to wear after a while. Sure, if your NPC has a number of lackeys that can cast magic, then of course you're going to set up your Wards to make your Dark Fortress as impregnable as you possibly can. But, constantly finding Wards that have magic in them that does not foreshadow the forces the PCs are up against is just irritating, in the end. As I've said, it strikes against suspension of disbelief. Jim -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jun 28 12:28:48 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id MAA16787; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 12:13:52 +1200 Received: from fclaklmr02.fcl.co.nz ([202.14.23.202] (may be forged)) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id MAA16776 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 12:13:42 +1200 Received: from falaklex00.falum.co.nz (10.8.1.28) by fclaklmr02.fcl.co.nz Wednesday, June 28, 2000 12:07:49 Message-ID: Received: by falaklex00.fcl.co.nz with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 12:12:00 +1200 Message-ID: <311B3C3DD32FD311B33900805F770A72010B163B@falaklex00.fcl.co.nz> Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 12:11:59 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01BFE095.7A78C270" Subject: RE: Warding Dragonflames - why ward non-lethal damage spells?... From: "Andrew Withy (FAL AKL)" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01BFE095.7A78C270 Content-Type: text/plain For the evil sorceror,warding is best for alarm spells or incinerate-type spells. It is also useful for some free power-ups for your lackeys, in case you don't have time to put quickness on them all. It also can scare off the encyclopaedia salesmen and low adventurers, so that anyone coming up the path is worth the effort of getting out of bed. For the GM, wards can be used for a variety of effects. Most of these wouldn't be resist-or-die, as this lacks dramatic tension unless the party finds them first, creating a DA-delay and loss of momentum. (However, wards that blast your horse out from under you are fun). They don't need to be used optimally for the NPCs, just for the story. I think that massive damage spells aren't as much fun as those that disintegrate a structural pillar, set off alarms, charm people _before_ the big fight, etc. They also give warning of the rank & range of magic or type of opposition _if_ you wish. Lots of fun, and taking FT/EN from characters is only a small part of it. Andrew ------_=_NextPart_001_01BFE095.7A78C270 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Warding Dragonflames - why ward non-lethal damage = spells?...

For the evil = sorceror,warding is best for alarm spells or incinerate-type = spells.
It is also useful = for some free power-ups for your lackeys, in case you don't have time = to put quickness on them all.
It also can scare = off the encyclopaedia salesmen and low adventurers, so that anyone = coming up the path is worth the effort of getting out of = bed.

For the GM, wards = can be used for a variety of effects. Most of these wouldn't be = resist-or-die, as this lacks dramatic tension unless the party finds = them first, creating a DA-delay and loss of momentum.

(However, wards that = blast your horse out from under you are fun).
They don't need to = be used optimally for the NPCs, just for the story. I think that = massive damage spells aren't as much fun as those that disintegrate a = structural pillar, set off alarms, charm people _before_ the big fight, = etc. They also give warning of the rank & range of magic or type of = opposition <triggers on all non-undead - so you don't think this is = a harmless wise woman then?>_if_ you wish.

Lots of fun, and = taking FT/EN from characters is only a small part of it.

Andrew

------_=_NextPart_001_01BFE095.7A78C270-- -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jun 28 12:59:53 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id MAA17063; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 12:50:16 +1200 Received: from mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (mailhost.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.1.4]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id MAA17060 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 12:50:06 +1200 Received: from sci4 (lbr-122-42.lbrsc.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.122.42]) by mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (8.9.2/8.9.2/8.9.2-ua) with SMTP id MAA03476 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 12:48:49 +1200 (NZST) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 12:47:39 +1200 Message-ID: <001a01bfe09a$75a0c880$2a7ad882@sci4> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Subject: RE: Warding Dragonflames - why ward non-lethal damage spells?... From: "Michael Parkinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Dear all, Wards are at their least useful when a party is free to stroll around your property as they wish. The advantage of Dragonflames is that it is spectacular -- thus alerting casual passers-by that there are strangers in their midst [lots of way of doing this: set the ward to attack beings that fail to possess, or lack, something vital -- items of clothing, breath, souls, etc]. Yes, it will help to remove some fatigue from trespassers; but if they have the time to stroll around your demesne, the chances of actually damaging them are slim. Of course any party that ventures out without a Namer or sufficient counterspells deserves a fiery slap on the wrist. This problem is avoided by not allowing vagrants to stroll about. Wards are much more fun if people are rushing over them -- either in pursuit of enemy scouts whom they must silence or (preferably) being driven by beaters. Btw, wards are a nice way to take out fliers. Unless the characters are feather-falling, it is unlikely that they will be moving slowly enough to DA the area before landing -- let alone counterspell it. Naturally I suggest Whirlwind Vortex, Windstorm, Increased Gravity, Webs, etc (or, at a pinch, Lightning bolt). All spells expected to make landing, especially with Celestial Wings, an unpleasant experience. Apart from that, ward is only useful for deploying those low base spells with more safety than usual (e.g. Rank 1 Sinking Doom). ... enjoy, Michael -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jun 28 13:02:08 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id MAA17109; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 12:56:12 +1200 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (smtp2.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.8]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id MAA17106 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 12:56:05 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p98-tnt2.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.245.98]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id MAA09007 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 12:54:46 +1200 Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 12:47:49 +1200 Message-ID: <01bfe09a$7bcd49e0$62f56dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_004D_01BFE0FF.110229E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Warding Dragonflames - why ward non-lethal damage spells?... From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_004D_01BFE0FF.110229E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Andrew Withy wrote: For the evil sorceror,warding is best for alarm spells or = incinerate-type spells.=20 =20 While I agree that the most useful spell for wards are alarm spells, = the Fire college doesn't lend itself to much in that line, really. Yes, = it can make a bloody big bang, and a hell of a flash, but it can't send = a message to the warder that other's can't here. =20 On the other hand, incinerate spells are bloody stink. What they do = is force a die roll for the purposes of resisting or dying. If you roll = well, you don't notice anything. If you blow it, the party is carrying = you home in an urn. That's very NOT exciting. I'm not saying that they aren't a useful effect. It is nice to have = spells in the game that let you drop someone in a single cast action. = But, in a ward, it's just tedious. =20 It is also useful for some free power-ups for your lackeys, in case = you don't have time to put quickness on them all.=20 =20 Yes. Very true. Now, as a Fire mage, what am I going to stick in a = ward that's going to be THAT useful? Fire Armour? O, well. The point is that Fire mage's specialise in damage. That's what they = do.=20 =20 It also can scare off the encyclopaedia salesmen and low = adventurers, so that anyone coming up the path is worth the effort of = getting out of bed. =20 =20 Yes, well. Hmm. But then, if you cast a wall of smoke spell at a low = level adventurer, then they'll flee for the hills...That still won't get = rid of the encyclopaedia salesman, I know... =20 For the GM, wards can be used for a variety of effects. Most of = these wouldn't be resist-or-die, as this lacks dramatic tension unless = the party finds them first, creating a DA-delay and loss of momentum. =20 =20 =20 I don't think DA-delay causes lack of momentum. How else do you = build tension without letting players know what they're about to walk = into the maw of?=20 =20 Yes, a variety of effects is nice, but then that's an argument to = increase the width and breadth of the Fire college, and I just don't = think that's reasonable. I do think it's reasonable that you have to = worry about a Ward of Dragonflames if you're going to mess with a Fire = mage, though. =20 (However, wards that blast your horse out from under you are fun).=20 =20 =20 =20 What kind of horse are you riding? Dear God, man, the horse would = have to be suffering from something like polio to be blown apart by any = spell that didn't do damage of the order of Dragonflames. They have = truckloads of EN and FT, you know.... =20 =20 They don't need to be used optimally for the NPCs, just for the = story.=20 =20 =20 =20 That isn't my point. Optimal use is neither here nor there. = Congruence with the expectable is what I'm talking about. If you engage = in conflict with a Fire mage, then you expect to wear a bit of damage. = You don't expect their wards to give you a bit of a hard time, and make = you swig back an healing potion. Frankly, charcoal briquettes has been = the sort of thing I've come to expect from fiddling with things that = they own. =20 It is an optimal use, that is not congruent with the expectable, to = have NPCs that regularly hire other people to cast wards on their = behalf. If you do it frequently enough, then the expectation changes. = And, then what happens is that a ward is DAed and found to contain, say, = a Necrosis, and the party breathes a sigh of relief, because they know = they can't be up against a Necromancer...How naff is that? =20 =20 =20 I think that massive damage spells aren't as much fun as those that = disintegrate a structural pillar, set off alarms, charm people _before_ = the big fight, etc. They also give warning of the rank & range of magic = or type of opposition _if_ you wish. =20 Well, I disagree with a lot of that, actually. I don't think charms = should be that frequently used against pcs, because they deny the player = control of their character. Ultimately, the pc's input has just been = reduced, which is unfair, because they no longer have the same leverage = on the game. And, the whole point of turning up of a Tuesday evening or = whenever is to have a bit of fun with your friends. There's bugger all = fun if you only get to play under the watchful gaze of the DM, and = you're unsure what limitations apply to the nature of the charm. =20 As for disintegrating a structural pillar, I don't see why that's = much better than blowing 12 bells out of them with high Ranked = Dragonflames, and may, in fact, be considerably worse. =20 Lots of fun, and taking FT/EN from characters is only a small part = of it.=20 =20 That's true. There are lots of things that other colleges can do to = have fun with wards. Fire mages, on the other hand, get to load them up = with piles of damage. I think that's fine. The other colleges get to do = some cunning things of their own, but a ward filled with Dragonflames = demands respect, in a way that no other spell does. =20 What else have you got to ward, if you're a Fire mage? =20 Jim =20 ------=_NextPart_000_004D_01BFE0FF.110229E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Warding Dragonflames - why ward = non-lethal damage spells?...
Andrew Withy wrote:
For the evil sorceror,warding is best for alarm spells or=20 incinerate-type spells.
 
While I agree that the most useful spell for wards are alarm = spells,=20 the Fire college doesn't lend itself to much in that line, really. = Yes, it=20 can make a bloody big bang, and a hell of a flash, but it can't send = a=20 message to the warder that other's can't here.
 
On the other hand, incinerate spells are bloody stink. What = they do is=20 force a die roll for the purposes of resisting or dying. If you roll = well,=20 you don't notice anything. If you blow it, the party is carrying you = home in=20 an urn. That's very NOT exciting.
I'm not saying that they aren't a useful effect. It is nice to = have=20 spells in the game that let you drop someone in a single cast = action. But,=20 in a ward, it's just tedious. 

It is also = useful for some=20 free power-ups for your lackeys, in case you don't have time to put=20 quickness on them all.
 
Yes. Very true. Now, as a Fire mage, what am I going to stick = in a ward=20 that's going to be THAT useful? Fire Armour? O, well.
The point is that Fire mage's specialise in damage. That's what = they=20 do.  

It also can = scare off the=20 encyclopaedia salesmen and low adventurers, so that anyone coming up = the=20 path is worth the effort of getting out of bed.
 
 
Yes, well. Hmm. But then, if you cast a wall of = smoke=20 spell at a low level adventurer, then they'll flee for the = hills...That=20 still won't get rid of the encyclopaedia salesman, I = know...
 

For the GM, wards can = be used for a=20 variety of effects. Most of these wouldn't be resist-or-die, as this = lacks=20 dramatic tension unless the party finds them first, creating a = DA-delay and=20 loss of momentum.

 

I don't think DA-delay causes lack of momentum. = How else do=20 you build tension without letting players know what they're about to = walk=20 into the maw of?

Yes, a variety of effects is nice, but then that's = an=20 argument to increase the width and breadth of the Fire college, and = I just=20 don't think that's reasonable. I do think it's reasonable that you = have to=20 worry about a Ward of Dragonflames if you're going to mess with a = Fire mage,=20 though.

(However, wards that = blast your=20 horse out from under you are fun).

 

What kind of horse are you riding? Dear God, man, the horse would = have to=20 be suffering from something like polio to be blown apart by any = spell that=20 didn't do damage of the order of Dragonflames. They have truckloads = of EN=20 and FT, you know....


They don't need = to be used=20 optimally for the NPCs, just for the story.

 

That isn't my point. Optimal use is neither here nor there. = Congruence with the expectable is what I'm talking about. If you = engage in=20 conflict with a Fire mage, then you expect to wear a bit of damage. = You=20 don't expect their wards to give you a bit of a hard time, and make = you swig=20 back an healing potion. Frankly, charcoal briquettes has been the = sort of=20 thing I've come to expect from fiddling with things that they=20 own.

It is an = optimal use, that=20 is not congruent with the expectable, to have NPCs that regularly = hire other=20 people to cast wards on their behalf. If you do it frequently = enough, then=20 the expectation changes. And, then what happens is that a ward is = DAed and=20 found to contain, say, a Necrosis, and the party breathes a sigh of = relief,=20 because they know they can't be up against a Necromancer...How naff = is=20 that?

 

I think that massive = damage spells=20 aren't as much fun as those that disintegrate a structural pillar, = set off=20 alarms, charm people _before_ the big fight, etc. They also give = warning of=20 the rank & range of magic or type of opposition <triggers on = all=20 non-undead - so you don't think this is a harmless wise woman = then?>_if_=20 you wish.

Well, I disagree with a lot of = that, actually.=20 I don't think charms should be that frequently used against pcs, = because=20 they deny the player control of their character. Ultimately, the = pc's input=20 has just been reduced, which is unfair, because they no longer have = the same=20 leverage on the game. And, the whole point of turning up of a = Tuesday=20 evening or whenever is to have a bit of fun with your friends. = There's=20 bugger all fun if you only get to play under the watchful gaze of = the DM,=20 and you're unsure what limitations apply to the nature of the=20 charm.

As for = disintegrating a=20 structural pillar, I don't see why that's much better than blowing = 12 bells=20 out of them with high Ranked Dragonflames, and may, in fact, be = considerably=20 worse.

Lots of fun, and = taking FT/EN from=20 characters is only a small part of it.

That's true. There are lots of = things that=20 other colleges can do to have fun with wards. Fire mages, on the = other hand,=20 get to load them up with piles of damage. I think that's fine. The = other=20 colleges get to do some cunning things of their own, but a ward = filled with=20 Dragonflames demands respect, in a way that no other spell = does.

What else have you got to ward, if = you're a=20 Fire mage?

Jim

------=_NextPart_000_004D_01BFE0FF.110229E0-- -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jun 28 13:14:19 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id NAA17204; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 13:06:32 +1200 Received: from mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (mailhost.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.1.4]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id NAA17201 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 13:06:26 +1200 Received: from sci4 (lbr-122-42.lbrsc.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.122.42]) by mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (8.9.2/8.9.2/8.9.2-ua) with SMTP id NAA05710 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 13:04:36 +1200 (NZST) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 13:03:26 +1200 Message-ID: <000001bfe09c$aa5c02e0$2a7ad882@sci4> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Subject: RE: Lesser Efreeti From: "Michael Parkinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Jim said: > Hey, this Ritual says that a Lesser Efreeti can't be banished, if it's bearing its caster. > How naff is that. > I think it should be banishable. It's got more Magic Resistance of any mount that I've ever seen, why in > God's name should it be immune to banishment, just because it's got someone on its back? > I think that sentence should be removed from the description I totally agree -- this sort of exception is ugly, and not of benefit (I feel) to the game. Michael. PS: It's bad enough that "called masters" can not be banished anymore. -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jun 28 13:30:26 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id NAA17372; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 13:26:52 +1200 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (smtp2.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.8]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id NAA17364 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 13:26:43 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p98-tnt2.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.245.98]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id NAA12551 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 13:25:25 +1200 Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 13:18:30 +1200 Message-ID: <01bfe09e$c4f4dee0$62f56dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Lesser Efreeti From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz >Michael Parkinson wrote: > >PS: It's bad enough that "called masters" can not be banished anymore. They can't? -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jun 28 13:33:21 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id NAA17357; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 13:26:34 +1200 Received: from mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (mailhost.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.1.4]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id NAA17354 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 13:26:28 +1200 Received: from sci4 (lbr-122-42.lbrsc.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.122.42]) by mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (8.9.2/8.9.2/8.9.2-ua) with SMTP id NAA08700 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 13:25:10 +1200 (NZST) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 13:24:00 +1200 Message-ID: <000301bfe09f$89acac40$2a7ad882@sci4> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Subject: RE: Warding Dragonflames - why ward non-lethal damage spells?... From: "Michael Parkinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > What else have you got to ward, if you're a Fire mage? A sight more than a Namer can ward -- their only wardable special spell is "Paralysis," which only lasts a pulse or three. Of course counterspells can be warded; but your chances of picking the right one are slim -- what with 16+ colleges BTW: For No discernable reason E&E General spell "Charming" is wardable, but E&E "Mass Charming" & the Namer Special "Charming" are not. I thought we were pretending that there's a logical rational as to why/whether particular spells are wardable. Regards Michael PS: I like the Polio ponies. -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jun 28 13:59:14 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id NAA17508; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 13:43:26 +1200 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (smtp2.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.8]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id NAA17504 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 13:43:20 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p98-tnt2.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.245.98]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id NAA14551 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 13:42:02 +1200 Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 13:35:06 +1200 Message-ID: <01bfe0a1$17062b60$62f56dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Warding Dragonflames - why ward non-lethal damage spells?... From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz >> What else have you got to ward, if you're a Fire mage? > >A sight more than a Namer can ward -- their only wardable special spell is "Paralysis," which only >lasts a pulse or three. Of course counterspells can be warded; but your chances of picking the >right one are slim -- what with 16+ colleges This is true. But then it's the college of people, who, by and large, don't want to have much to do with magic, except to stop it. > >BTW: For No discernable reason >E&E General spell "Charming" is wardable, >but E&E "Mass Charming" & the Namer Special "Charming" are not. Yeah, well, I think that the reason Namer Charm isn't wardable is because it's a simple mistake. We should just deep six it, and say they can. As for E&E Mass Charming, that spells takes about 5 minutes to cast, and although it doesn't specifically state it, I think the underpinning rationalisation is that it works by interacting with people, socially. I'm not sure I'm a fan of having the wretched thing available as a ward, 'cause that could be a significant fraction of the party charmed, and at odds with themselves. It's bad enough when one person in the party is charmed, let alone two or three. Plus, as I understand it, it is a concentration spell, isn't it? I would have said that it made it hard to have any significant effect on the victims, if there's nothing there to do the concentrating... Jim. -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jun 28 14:14:57 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id OAA17694; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 14:05:45 +1200 Received: from defacto.peace.co.nz (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id OAA17691 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 14:05:42 +1200 Message-ID: <395958D2.EAD8A9F9@peace.com> Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 13:45:54 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Lesser Efreeti From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Jim Arona wrote: > >Michael Parkinson wrote: > > > >PS: It's bad enough that "called masters" can not be banished anymore. > > They can't? Not for the last umm... 8 years or so. Call Master came out of Black when it became Witchcraft and became a magical talent (for want of a better description) that agents get as part of their pact. It also changed to be a request for help rather than a true summoning -- Boss can decide not to show up... or can send a minor flunkie, etc -- giving the GM more flexibility, not ending up with over-powering demons running around, etc. The flip-side is, since there is no specific college magic involved, there is no appropriate counterspell for the Namer to use to banish. This is good and bad... it means when the party offs the evil priest of Aim and the Mr. Fiery turns up the party are no worse off should they fail to have a Namer. :) Call Patron can't be banished in the same way that Geas can't be dissapated. -- _/_/ Peace Software New Zealand Ltd Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com _/ Martin Dickson Fax : +64-9-373-0401 Analyst Phone: +64-9-373-0400 -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jun 28 14:16:59 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id OAA17662; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 14:03:56 +1200 Received: from enterprise.iconz.co.nz (enterprise.iconz.co.nz [210.48.22.40]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id OAA17659 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 14:03:50 +1200 Received: (qmail 18094 invoked by alias); 28 Jun 2000 02:02:36 -0000 Received: from fe0.firewall.ak.iconz.net.nz (HELO escher) (202.14.100.208) by enterprise.iconz.co.nz with SMTP; 28 Jun 2000 02:02:36 -0000 Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 14:02:36 +1200 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0020_01BFE109.834C3C70" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Subject: RE: Warding Dragonflames - why ward non-lethal damage spells?... From: "Mandos Mitchinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01BFE109.834C3C70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit RE: Warding Dragonflames - why ward non-lethal damage spells?...For the evil sorceror,warding is best for alarm spells or incinerate-type spells. It is also useful for some free power-ups for your lackeys, in case you don't have time to put quickness on them all. It also can scare off the encyclopaedia salesmen and low adventurers, so that anyone coming up the path is worth the effort of getting out of bed. For the GM, wards can be used for a variety of effects. Most of these wouldn't be resist-or-die, as this lacks dramatic tension unless the party finds them first, creating a DA-delay and loss of momentum. Personally as a GM the best wards I use are inconvienience wards as defence. I use Binders as bad guy with "Bubble of force" and the stick floor spell, to best effect. Damage has never really worked as an option. Mandos /s ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01BFE109.834C3C70 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Warding Dragonflames - why ward non-lethal damage = spells?...

For the evil = sorceror,warding is best=20 for alarm spells or incinerate-type spells.
It is also useful for some free power-ups for = your lackeys,=20 in case you don't have time to put quickness on them all. =
It also can scare off the = encyclopaedia=20 salesmen and low adventurers, so that anyone coming up the path is = worth the=20 effort of getting out of bed.

For the GM, = wards can be=20 used for a variety of effects. Most of these wouldn't be = resist-or-die, as=20 this lacks dramatic tension unless the party finds them first, = creating a=20 DA-delay and loss of momentum. 

Personally as a GM the best wards I use are=20 inconvienience wards as defence. I use Binders as bad guy = with "Bubble=20 of force" and the stick floor spell, to best effect. Damage has never = really=20 worked as an option. 

Mandos

/s

 

<= /HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01BFE109.834C3C70-- -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jun 28 14:44:08 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id OAA17976; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 14:30:03 +1200 Received: from kakapo.cs.auckland.ac.nz (kakapo.cs.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.34.10]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id OAA17970 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 14:29:56 +1200 Received: from [130.216.108.110] (clare.cs.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.108.110]) by kakapo.cs.auckland.ac.nz (8.8.6/8.8.6/cs-master) with ESMTP id OAA10880 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 14:28:35 +1200 (NZST) (sender clare@cs.auckland.ac.nz) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: clare@staffpop.cs.auckland.ac.nz Message-Id: Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 14:28:36 +1200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Subject: Banishing and Celestial mutterings (was Re: Lesser Efreeti) From: clare@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Clare West) To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > >Michael Parkinson wrote: > > > >PS: It's bad enough that "called masters" can not be banished anymore. > >They can't? Quote from Namer, Banishing (S-4): "Call Master is not classified as a summoning spell." Namer Banishment can only banish entities summoned with a summoning spell/ritual. Which means it can't banish dark/light spheres (uh-oh - Ithilmor always thought it could), or Demons summoned by Call Master or any means other than the appropriate G.Summoner Rituals. Which is most Demons, most of the time. It is useful against Elementals, Efreeti and Salamaders and not a lot else. Interestingly there is a contradiction in the spell discription. The targets are listed as "Summonable entities", but the examples specifically mention Dark Spheres as being basnishable (but not Light Spheres). Talking about dark/light spheres. Why in the new spell price lists, is this ritual listed as only being learnable by Dark/Solar mages? Never is listed for Star/Shadow mages (compared with Quest for Dark/Solar). The description of the ritual specifically mentions Star and Shadow mages being able to cast it. Also the price list now makes all specials available, at the guild to all branches of the Celestial college - this was not the case before. I thought that this restriction in the spells available at the guild was going to be continued. -- Clare West, Rm 111, Ext 8266 clare@cs.auckland.ac.nz -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jun 28 14:59:02 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id OAA18156; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 14:51:11 +1200 Received: from defacto.peace.co.nz (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id OAA18149 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 14:51:07 +1200 Message-ID: <39596372.94BB72C4@peace.com> Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 14:31:14 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Banishing and Celestial mutterings (was Re: Lesser Efreeti) From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Clare West wrote: > Interestingly there is a contradiction in the spell discription. The > targets are listed as "Summonable entities", but the examples > specifically mention Dark Spheres as being basnishable (but not Light > Spheres). You are assuming that Dark and Light spheres are not entities? :) "It's life Jim, but not as we know it". Looks like an oversight. The spheres are "summoned" and controlled and should (IMHO and experience) be banishable. -- _/_/ Peace Software New Zealand Ltd Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com _/ Martin Dickson Fax : +64-9-373-0401 Analyst Phone: +64-9-373-0400 -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jun 28 15:14:26 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id PAA18261; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 15:03:30 +1200 Received: from akl-notes2.aj.co.nz (akl-notes.aj.co.nz [202.27.194.165]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id PAA18258 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 15:03:26 +1200 Received: from akl-notes.aj.co.nz ([192.168.4.165]) by akl-notes2.aj.co.nz (Lotus Domino Release 5.0.3 (Intl)) with ESMTP id 2000062815065335:5178 ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 15:06:53 +1200 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.3 (Intl) 21 March 2000 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 15:04:59 +1200 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on akl-notes.aj.co.nz/AJNzl/NZ(Release 5.0.3 (Intl)|21 March 2000) at 28/06/2000 15:04:56, Serialize complete at 28/06/2000 15:04:56, Itemize by SMTP Server on akl-notes2/AJNzl/NZ(Release 5.0.3 (Intl)|21 March 2000) at 28/06/2000 15:06:53, Serialize by Router on akl-notes2/AJNzl/NZ(Release 5.0.3 (Intl)|21 March 2000) at 28/06/2000 15:06:56, Serialize complete at 28/06/2000 15:06:56 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 0010CED7CC25690C_=" Subject: Re: Celestial Special Knowledge From: Rosemary_Mansfield/AJNzl/NZ@AJ.CO.NZ To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 0010CED7CC25690C_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Clare Wrote: Talking about dark/light spheres. Why in the new spell price lists, is this ritual listed as only being learnable by Dark/Solar mages? Never is listed for Star/Shadow mages (compared with Quest for Dark/Solar). The description of the ritual specifically mentions Star and Shadow mages being able to cast it. For the Celestial colleges I took which spells belonged to which college from the previous spell price list. Since this ritual wasn't listed I guessed. In this case wrongly. Oops Clare Wrote: Also the price list now makes all specials available, at the guild to all branches of the Celestial college - this was not the case before. I thought that this restriction in the spells available at the guild was going to be continued. Not all the Celestial SK is for sale, just more than previously. The consensus of the email discussions and the Spell Price Workshop was that most spells should be available. There was no good reason to limit the 'little' spells, and the tough spells have been made Very expensive. The exceptions are the worst of the OTT spells, usually only one or two per college. Rosemary --=_alternative 0010CED7CC25690C_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
Clare Wrote:
Talking about dark/light spheres. Why in the new spell price lists,
is this ritual listed as only being learnable by Dark/Solar mages?
Never is listed for Star/Shadow mages (compared with Quest for
Dark/Solar). The description of the ritual specifically mentions Star
and Shadow mages being able to cast it.
For the Celestial colleges I took which spells belonged to which college from the previous spell price list.
Since this ritual wasn't listed I guessed.  In this case wrongly.  Oops

Clare Wrote:
Also the price list now makes all specials available, at the guild to
all branches of the Celestial college - this was not the case before.
I thought that this restriction in the spells available at the guild
was going to be continued.

Not all the Celestial SK is for sale, just more than previously.  
The consensus of the email discussions and the Spell Price Workshop was that most spells should be available.  There was no good reason to limit the 'little' spells, and the tough spells have been made Very expensive.  The exceptions are the worst of the OTT spells, usually only one or two per college.

Rosemary --=_alternative 0010CED7CC25690C_=-- -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jun 28 16:14:32 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id QAA18775; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 16:01:39 +1200 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (smtp2.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.8]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id QAA18772 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 16:01:35 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p62-tnt8.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.138.62]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id PAA01110 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 15:59:47 +1200 Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 15:52:51 +1200 Message-ID: <01bfe0b4$559f46a0$3e8a6dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Lesser Efreeti From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Martin Dickson wrote: >Call Master came out of Black when it became Witchcraft and became a >magical talent (for want of a better description) that agents get as part >of their pact. It also changed to be a request for help rather than a true >summoning -- Boss can decide not to show up... or can send a minor flunkie, >etc -- giving the GM more flexibility, not ending up with over-powering >demons running around, etc. > >The flip-side is, since there is no specific college magic involved, there >is no appropriate counterspell for the Namer to use to banish. This is >good and bad... it means when the party offs the evil priest of Aim and the >Mr. Fiery turns up the party are no worse off should they fail to have a >Namer. :) > >Call Patron can't be banished in the same way that Geas can't be >dissapated. Well, yes, but that's a case of arguing a rule to fit the cases, rather than working out what you want to achieve. The issue to discuss is: 'Should Namers be able to banish those things summoned (or called) by people who have pacts with them?' Anything else other than this is merely a discussion about what the rules currently reflect. And, I'm not convinced about the argument for Geas, either. That spell has a clear intent, over and beyond being magic that is not colleged. The idea of that spell is that it shouldn't be dissipated easily, in much the same way that curses shouldn't be. Jim -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jun 28 16:16:03 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id QAA18843; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 16:11:37 +1200 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (smtp2.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.8]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id QAA18840 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 16:11:32 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p62-tnt8.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.138.62]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id QAA02561 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 16:10:10 +1200 Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 16:03:17 +1200 Message-ID: <01bfe0b5$ca930b80$3e8a6dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001C_01BFE11A.5FC7EB80" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Warding Dragonflames - why ward non-lethal damage spells?... From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01BFE11A.5FC7EB80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 For the evil sorceror,warding is best for alarm spells or = incinerate-type spells.=20 It is also useful for some free power-ups for your lackeys, in = case you don't have time to put quickness on them all.=20 It also can scare off the encyclopaedia salesmen and low = adventurers, so that anyone coming up the path is worth the effort of = getting out of bed. =20 For the GM, wards can be used for a variety of effects. Most of = these wouldn't be resist-or-die, as this lacks dramatic tension unless = the party finds them first, creating a DA-delay and loss of momentum.=20 =20 Personally as a GM the best wards I use are inconvienience wards = as defence. I use Binders as bad guy with "Bubble of force" and the = stick floor spell, to best effect. Damage has never really worked as an = option.=20 =20 No. Instead, you use a spell for which there is no remedy. Once = inside the wretched thing, there's no way out. That's neither fair nor = reasonable as a DM. And, as far as the discussion goes, it's beside the = point.=20 =20 Let me make the point again. Fire mages have little else to do = except inflict damage, which is fine, really. That's the kind of element = that fire is. But, there is precious little point in having a ward that = will not potentially kill people, because all it really does is provide = them with information, and makes them use up healing potions. =20 To that end, Dragonflames should be wardable. =20 Jim =20 ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01BFE11A.5FC7EB80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Warding Dragonflames - why ward = non-lethal damage spells?...

For the evil = sorceror,warding=20 is best for alarm spells or incinerate-type spells. =
It is also useful for some = free=20 power-ups for your lackeys, in case you don't have time to put = quickness=20 on them all.
It also=20 can scare off the encyclopaedia salesmen and low adventurers, so = that=20 anyone coming up the path is worth the effort of getting out of=20 bed.

For = the GM, wards=20 can be used for a variety of effects. Most of these wouldn't be=20 resist-or-die, as this lacks dramatic tension unless the party = finds=20 them first, creating a DA-delay and loss of momentum. 

Personally as a GM the best wards I use = are=20 inconvienience wards as defence. I use Binders as bad guy with = "Bubble=20 of force" and the stick floor spell, to best effect. Damage has = never=20 really worked as an option. 

No. Instead, you use a spell for = which there=20 is no remedy. Once inside the wretched thing, there's no way out. = That's=20 neither fair nor reasonable as a DM. And, as far as the discussion = goes,=20 it's beside the point.

Let me make the point again. Fire = mages have=20 little else to do except inflict damage, which is fine, really. = That's the=20 kind of element that fire is. But, there is precious little point in = having=20 a ward that will not potentially kill people, because all it really = does is=20 provide them with information, and makes them use up healing=20 potions.

To that end, Dragonflames should = be=20 wardable.

Jim

------=_NextPart_000_001C_01BFE11A.5FC7EB80-- -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jun 28 16:44:16 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id QAA19004; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 16:30:23 +1200 Received: from defacto.peace.co.nz (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id QAA19001 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 16:30:19 +1200 Message-ID: <39597AA9.E9622B9D@peace.com> Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 16:10:17 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Lesser Efreeti From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Jim Arona wrote: > The issue to discuss is: > 'Should Namers be able to banish those things summoned (or called) by people > who have pacts with them?' > Anything else other than this is merely a discussion about what the rules > currently reflect. I didn't realise that there was an issue. You appeared to be surprised that things summoned by Agents could not be banished by a Namer and I was simply outlining the current situation. Regards, Martin -- _/_/ Peace Software New Zealand Ltd Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com _/ Martin Dickson Fax : +64-9-373-0401 Analyst Phone: +64-9-373-0400 -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jun 28 17:29:44 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id RAA19271; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 17:19:56 +1200 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id RAA19268 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 17:19:49 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p30-tnt2.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.245.30]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id RAA15801 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 17:18:23 +1200 Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 17:11:17 +1200 Message-ID: <01bfe0bf$4a763760$1ef56dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Lesser Efreeti From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz >> The issue to discuss is: >> 'Should Namers be able to banish those things summoned (or called) by people >> who have pacts with them?' >> Anything else other than this is merely a discussion about what the rules >> currently reflect. > >I didn't realise that there was an issue. You appeared to be surprised that >things summoned by Agents could not be banished by a Namer and I was simply >outlining the current situation. Frankly, I don't care. I was surprised, and no more. I can live with whatever situation pertains. That said, however, I think that whether or not magic like that is dissipatable because it's out of college is really just a red herring. It's nice if the rules are congruent with why things work, but I would never accept a reason like that as a justification for why something can or cannot be done. I mean, that line of reasoning is arid and empty, because it suggests 'It works this way, because that's the way the rules say it does'- Which is completely circular. Whereas, what ought to be happening is that we should be approaching rules from the position of deciding whether or not a rule elicits the right type of responses from players. Well, at least, that's one kind of consideration, anyway. Jim -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jun 28 17:44:26 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id RAA19423; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 17:42:31 +1200 Received: from mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (mailhost.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.1.4]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id RAA19420 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 17:42:21 +1200 Received: from sci4 (lbr-122-42.lbrsc.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.122.42]) by mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (8.9.2/8.9.2/8.9.2-ua) with SMTP id RAA19190 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 17:40:58 +1200 (NZST) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 17:39:49 +1200 Message-ID: <000301bfe0c3$46520c50$2a7ad882@sci4> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Subject: Astrologer is stuffed From: "Michael Parkinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Dear All, I'd like to start a discussion of what we want the Astrology skill to do. Here's some reasons why the Astrologer skill is broken: #1 QUOTE The results of a reading will affect the pertinent course of events. The GM is expected to modify the outcome of an adventure or happening in their world to conform with a determination made by an astrologer or by an astrologer at the behest of a character. PROBLEM ** This asinine ability is seldom played by GMs. And a good job too. I will NOT change my scenario because some PLAYER has *determined* that this is the OBLIGATORY outcome. I do expect my players to thwart the plans of some NPCs -- but through appropriate guile & brute-strength, not because some player has rewritten the ending. #2 QUOTE An astrologer's Rank determines how many beings they can directly affect with a single prediction. A being is directly affected by an astrologer's art when the GM modifies the result of an action taken by the being due to a prophecy. PROBLEM ** Frankly, this would suggest that an Astrologer can make NO determinations -- since almost everything has a flow-on effect to other people. #3 QUOTE The result of the divination becomes the astrologer's prediction. If the astrologer does not wish to make the prediction, they may immediately attempt to change it. PROBLEMS ** That is, the GM cannot alter the effect of the PLAYER's prediction, but the player can ???? ** Note that this is ONLY skill which absolutely REQUIRES the player to perform the skill which their _character_ has; no player of a troubador is required to play a lute; no player of a beast-master is required to subdue their unicorn; etc. Illustrative example: Sibyl the astrologer (played by Charlie), is doing a reading for Yorick (played by Billie) -- As written DQ requires Charlie to _actually_ perform a "real" divinatory technique. If Sybil were a healer, we wouldn't require Charlie to resurrect Billie in real-life for Yorick to be resurrected in the game. #4 QUOTE An astrologer may not make a general prediction or ask a specific question concerning only themself. PROBLEM ** This is absurd & has no cultural basis whatsoever, provided that we do get rid of the stupid ability of the Astrologer to change the course of future to match their prediction -- or at least make it inapplicable on self-readings. Indeed there is the "historical" death of the soothsayer Calchas, who died of laughter at the thought of having outlived his own death prediction. Of course I can see the GM refusing to answer certain questions, in order not to restrict the game or put an unacceptable obligation on future GMs. Btw, the numbers are pretty screwy as well. regards, Michael -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jun 28 17:58:45 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id RAA19494; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 17:48:48 +1200 Received: from mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (mailhost.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.1.4]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id RAA19491 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 17:48:42 +1200 Received: from sci4 (lbr-122-42.lbrsc.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.122.42]) by mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (8.9.2/8.9.2/8.9.2-ua) with SMTP id RAA19983 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 17:47:20 +1200 (NZST) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 17:46:11 +1200 Message-ID: <000401bfe0c4$29ff6b00$2a7ad882@sci4> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Subject: RE: Lesser Efreeti From: "Michael Parkinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > > >PS: It's bad enough that "called masters" can not be banished anymore. > > > > They can't? > > [...] Call Patron can't be banished in the same way that Geas can't be > dissapated. Get rid of the problem at it source, I say. "Dissipate" the damned black mages & you won't have any evil Demons (sorry, Patrons) turning up more than once a piece. -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Jun 29 04:28:31 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id EAA23254; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 04:20:29 +1200 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id EAA23251 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 04:20:25 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p143-tnt1.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.111.143]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id EAA25080 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 04:18:51 +1200 Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 04:11:42 +1200 Message-ID: <01bfe11b$8cbe1fa0$8f6f12ce@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Astrologer is stuffed From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Michael Parkinson wrote: >#1 QUOTE >The results of a reading will affect the pertinent course of events. The GM is expected to modify >the outcome of an adventure or happening in their world to conform with a determination made by an >astrologer or by an astrologer at the behest of a character. > >PROBLEM >** This asinine ability is seldom played by GMs. And a good job too. I will NOT change my >scenario because some PLAYER has *determined* that this is the OBLIGATORY outcome. I do expect my >players to thwart the plans of some NPCs -- but through appropriate guile & brute-strength, not >because some player has rewritten the ending. I quite agree. It is stupid. >#2 QUOTE >An astrologer's Rank determines how many beings they can directly affect with a single prediction. >A being is directly affected by an astrologer's art when the GM modifies the result of an action >taken by the being due to a prophecy. > >PROBLEM >** Frankly, this would suggest that an Astrologer can make NO determinations -- since almost >everything has a flow-on effect to other people. Yes, well, this is poorly written, but I think it's too stop making the prediction too specific by including a number of constants into the astrological equation, like naming other people. It probably only needs to reworded. >#3 QUOTE >The result of the divination becomes the astrologer's prediction. If the astrologer does not wish >to make the prediction, they may immediately attempt to change it. > >PROBLEMS >** That is, the GM cannot alter the effect of the PLAYER's prediction, but the player can ???? >** Note that this is ONLY skill which absolutely REQUIRES the player to perform the skill which >their _character_ has; no player of a troubador is required to play a lute; no player of a >beast-master is required to subdue their unicorn; etc. >Illustrative example: Sibyl the astrologer (played by Charlie), is doing a reading for Yorick >(played by Billie) -- As written DQ requires Charlie to _actually_ perform a "real" divinatory >technique. If Sybil were a healer, we wouldn't require Charlie to resurrect Billie in real-life >for Yorick to be resurrected in the game. Yes, again stupid. Ditch it completely, I say. >#4 QUOTE >An astrologer may not make a general prediction or ask a specific question concerning only >themself. > >PROBLEM >** This is absurd & has no cultural basis whatsoever, provided that we do get rid of the stupid >ability of the Astrologer to change the course of future to match their prediction -- or at least >make it inapplicable on self-readings. Indeed there is the "historical" death of the soothsayer >Calchas, who died of laughter at the thought of having outlived his own death prediction. >Of course I can see the GM refusing to answer certain questions, in order not to restrict the game >or put an unacceptable obligation on future GMs. > >Btw, the numbers are pretty screwy as well. Yes, they are, but then, what's new with that. Still, no reason not to break out the wire brush and dettol and give it a good going over. Jim -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Jun 29 08:43:48 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id IAA24534; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 08:28:40 +1200 Received: from enterprise.iconz.co.nz (enterprise.iconz.co.nz [210.48.22.40]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id IAA24529 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 08:28:36 +1200 Received: (qmail 9603 invoked by alias); 28 Jun 2000 20:26:57 -0000 Received: from fe0.firewall.ak.iconz.net.nz (HELO escher) (202.14.100.208) by enterprise.iconz.co.nz with SMTP; 28 Jun 2000 20:26:57 -0000 Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 08:26:57 +1200 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0031_01BFE1A3.CA05CD80" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Subject: RE: Warding Dragonflames - why ward non-lethal damage spells?... From: "Mandos Mitchinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0031_01BFE1A3.CA05CD80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit RE: Warding Dragonflames - why ward non-lethal damage spells?...Let me make the point again. Fire mages have little else to do except inflict damage, which is fine, really. That's the kind of element that fire is. But, there is precious little point in having a ward that will not potentially kill people, because all it really does is provide them with information, and makes them use up healing potions. To that end, Dragonflames should be wardable. Why not look at it from another angle? If there is nothing to ward, remove ward. If it adds nothing to the collage and is not used then don't bother having it. Or on the other hand you could just make it a ritual that people have to specifically buy of their own free will and character choice so that if they want to use it they will go and get it......oh wait thats how it is now. The fact is it is not forced on people, it dosn't make them any less effective as a collage to have he ritual and if it has uses thats great if it dosn't then thats great too. It comes down to player choice. Making Dragonflames wardable does not add anything to the game particularly, it dosn't add flavour to the collage, it dosn't even give much more of a reason to purchase ward. There is no particular reason that I can see in favour of warding DF but on the other hand who really cares if you can. Mandos /s ------=_NextPart_000_0031_01BFE1A3.CA05CD80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Warding Dragonflames - why ward non-lethal damage = spells?...

Let me make the point again. Fire = mages have=20 little else to do except inflict damage, which is fine, really. = That's the=20 kind of element that fire is. But, there is precious little point in = having=20 a ward that will not potentially kill people, because all it really = does is=20 provide them with information, and makes them use up healing=20 potions.

To that end, Dragonflames = should be=20 wardable. 

Why not look at it from another=20 angle? 

If there is nothing to ward, remove ward. If = it adds=20 nothing to the collage and is not used then don't bother having = it. Or on=20 the other hand you could just make it a ritual that people have to = specifically=20 buy of their own free will and character choice so that if they want to = use it=20 they will go and get it......oh wait thats how it is=20 now.

The fact is it is not forced on people, it = dosn't make=20 them any less effective as a collage to have he ritual and if it has = uses thats=20 great if it dosn't then thats great too. It comes down to player=20 choice.

Making=20 Dragonflames wardable does not add anything to the game particularly, it = dosn't=20 add flavour to the collage, it dosn't even give much more of a reason to = purchase ward.

There is=20 no particular reason that I can see in favour of warding DF but on the = other=20 hand who really cares if you can.

Mandos

/s

 

<= /HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_0031_01BFE1A3.CA05CD80-- -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Jun 29 10:44:10 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id KAA25417; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 10:42:11 +1200 Received: from fclaklmr02.fcl.co.nz ([202.14.23.202] (may be forged)) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id KAA25414 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 10:42:07 +1200 Received: from falaklex00.falum.co.nz (10.8.1.28) by fclaklmr02.fcl.co.nz Thursday, June 29, 2000 10:36:44 Message-ID: Received: by falaklex00.fcl.co.nz with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 10:39:54 +1200 Message-ID: <311B3C3DD32FD311B33900805F770A72010B164A@falaklex00.fcl.co.nz> Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 10:39:53 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01BFE151.C701E790" Subject: RE: Astrologer is stuffed From: "Andrew Withy (FAL AKL)" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01BFE151.C701E790 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" The general reading and specific reading *concepts* seem fine - that you can just ask "tell me about the problem", or "what is the answer to this fragment of the problem" I think that the numbers should be lower, and relate to the accuracy of the astrology reading. Fore example, when I had Rank 0 Astrologer (and no greater), I was at 90%+Rank for most of my BCs. This doesn't give much reason to rank it. I'd be happier with general questions being 2 x PC + 6/Rank, and specific questions being PC + 8/Rank or similar numbers. You shouldn't be able to ever change your answers if you don't like them. Perhaps there should be a translation ability where astrologers will get hints what astrology readings might mean or pertain to. Andrew > -----Original Message----- > From: Jim Arona [SMTP:jimarona@ihug.co.nz] > Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2000 4:12 AM > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Subject: Re: Astrologer is stuffed > > Michael Parkinson wrote: > >#1 QUOTE > >The results of a reading will affect the pertinent course of events. The > GM > is expected to modify > >the outcome of an adventure or happening in their world to conform with a > determination made by an > >astrologer or by an astrologer at the behest of a character. > > > >PROBLEM > >** This asinine ability is seldom played by GMs. And a good job too. I > will NOT change my > >scenario because some PLAYER has *determined* that this is the OBLIGATORY > outcome. I do expect my > >players to thwart the plans of some NPCs -- but through appropriate guile > & > brute-strength, not > >because some player has rewritten the ending. > > I quite agree. It is stupid. > > >#2 QUOTE > >An astrologer's Rank determines how many beings they can directly affect > with a single prediction. > >A being is directly affected by an astrologer's art when the GM modifies > the result of an action > >taken by the being due to a prophecy. > > > >PROBLEM > >** Frankly, this would suggest that an Astrologer can make NO > determinations -- since almost > >everything has a flow-on effect to other people. > > Yes, well, this is poorly written, but I think it's too stop making the > prediction too specific by including a number of constants into the > astrological equation, like naming other people. > It probably only needs to reworded. > > >#3 QUOTE > >The result of the divination becomes the astrologer's prediction. If the > astrologer does not wish > >to make the prediction, they may immediately attempt to change it. > > > >PROBLEMS > >** That is, the GM cannot alter the effect of the PLAYER's prediction, > but > the player can ???? > >** Note that this is ONLY skill which absolutely REQUIRES the player to > perform the skill which > >their _character_ has; no player of a troubador is required to play a > lute; no player of a > >beast-master is required to subdue their unicorn; etc. > >Illustrative example: Sibyl the astrologer (played by Charlie), is doing > a > reading for Yorick > >(played by Billie) -- As written DQ requires Charlie to _actually_ > perform > a "real" divinatory > >technique. If Sybil were a healer, we wouldn't require Charlie to > resurrect Billie in real-life > >for Yorick to be resurrected in the game. > > Yes, again stupid. Ditch it completely, I say. > > >#4 QUOTE > >An astrologer may not make a general prediction or ask a specific > question > concerning only > >themself. > > > >PROBLEM > >** This is absurd & has no cultural basis whatsoever, provided that we do > get rid of the stupid > >ability of the Astrologer to change the course of future to match their > prediction -- or at least > >make it inapplicable on self-readings. Indeed there is the "historical" > death of the soothsayer > >Calchas, who died of laughter at the thought of having outlived his own > death prediction. > >Of course I can see the GM refusing to answer certain questions, in order > not to restrict the game > >or put an unacceptable obligation on future GMs. > > > >Btw, the numbers are pretty screwy as well. > > Yes, they are, but then, what's new with that. Still, no reason not to > break > out the wire brush and dettol and give it a good going over. > Jim > > > > -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- ------_=_NextPart_001_01BFE151.C701E790 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Astrologer is stuffed

The general reading = and specific reading *concepts* seem fine - that you can just ask = "tell me about the problem", or "what is the answer to = this fragment of the problem"

I think that the = numbers should be lower, and relate to the accuracy of the astrology = reading. Fore example, when I had Rank 0 Astrologer (and no greater), I = was at 90%+Rank for most of my BCs. This doesn't give much reason to = rank it. I'd be happier with general questions being 2 x PC + 6/Rank, = and specific questions being PC + 8/Rank or similar numbers.

You shouldn't be = able to ever change your answers if you don't like them.

Perhaps there should = be a translation ability where astrologers will get hints what = astrology readings might mean or pertain to.

Andrew

    -----Original Message-----
    From:   Jim Arona [SMTP:jimarona@ihug.co.nz]
    Sent:   Thursday, June 29, 2000 4:12 AM
    To:     dq@dq.sf.org.nz
    Subject:       = Re: Astrologer is stuffed

    Michael Parkinson wrote:
    >#1 QUOTE
    >The results of a reading will = affect the pertinent course of events. The GM
    is expected to modify
    >the outcome of an adventure or = happening in their world to conform with a
    determination made by an
    >astrologer or by an astrologer at = the behest of a character.
    >
    >PROBLEM
    >** This asinine ability is seldom = played by GMs.  And a good job too.  I
    will NOT change my
    >scenario because some PLAYER has = *determined* that this is the OBLIGATORY
    outcome.  I do expect my
    >players to thwart the plans of = some NPCs -- but through appropriate guile &
    brute-strength, not
    >because some player has rewritten = the ending.

    I quite agree. It is stupid.

    >#2 QUOTE
    >An astrologer's Rank determines = how many beings they can directly affect
    with a single prediction.
    >A being is directly affected by = an astrologer's art when the GM modifies
    the result of an action
    >taken by the being due to a = prophecy.
    >
    >PROBLEM
    >**  Frankly, this would = suggest that an Astrologer can make NO
    determinations -- since almost
    >everything has a flow-on effect = to other people.

    Yes, well, this is poorly written, but = I think it's too stop making the
    prediction too specific by including = a number of constants into the
    astrological equation, like naming = other people.
    It probably only needs to = reworded.

    >#3 QUOTE
    >The result of the divination = becomes the astrologer's prediction. If the
    astrologer does not wish
    >to make the prediction, they may = immediately attempt to change it.
    >
    >PROBLEMS
    >**  That is, the GM cannot = alter the effect of the PLAYER's prediction, but
    the player can ????
    >**  Note that this is ONLY = skill which absolutely REQUIRES the player to
    perform the skill which
    >their _character_ has;  no = player of a troubador is required to play a
    lute; no player of a
    >beast-master is required to = subdue their unicorn; etc.
    >Illustrative example: Sibyl the = astrologer (played by Charlie), is doing a
    reading for Yorick
    >(played by  Billie) -- As = written DQ requires Charlie to _actually_ perform
    a "real" divinatory
    >technique.   If Sybil = were a healer, we wouldn't require Charlie to
    resurrect Billie in real-life
    >for Yorick to be resurrected in = the game.

    Yes, again stupid. Ditch it = completely, I say.

    >#4 QUOTE
    >An astrologer may not make a = general prediction or ask a specific question
    concerning only
    >themself.
    >
    >PROBLEM
    >** This is absurd & has no = cultural basis whatsoever, provided that we do
    get rid of the stupid
    >ability of the Astrologer to = change the course of future to match their
    prediction -- or at least
    >make it inapplicable on = self-readings.  Indeed there is the "historical"
    death of the soothsayer
    >Calchas, who died of laughter at = the thought of having outlived his own
    death prediction.
    >Of course I can see the GM = refusing to answer certain questions, in order
    not to restrict the game
    >or put an unacceptable obligation = on future GMs.
    >
    >Btw, the numbers are pretty = screwy as well.

    Yes, they are, but then, what's new = with that. Still, no reason not to break
    out the wire brush and dettol and = give it a good going over.
    Jim



    -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html = --

------_=_NextPart_001_01BFE151.C701E790-- -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Jun 29 11:59:45 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id LAA25824; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 11:48:02 +1200 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id LAA25821 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 11:47:58 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p220-tnt2.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.245.220]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id LAA07623 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 11:46:13 +1200 Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 11:39:01 +1200 Message-ID: <01bfe15a$09f1a1c0$dcf56dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000F_01BFE1BE.9F2681C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Warding Dragonflames - why ward non-lethal damage spells?... From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BFE1BE.9F2681C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable George Mitchinson wrote: Let me make the point again. Fire mages have little else to do = except inflict damage, which is fine, really. That's the kind of element = that fire is. But, there is precious little point in having a ward that = will not potentially kill people, because all it really does is provide = them with information, and makes them use up healing potions. =20 To that end, Dragonflames should be wardable.=20 =20 Why not look at it from another angle?=20 =20 If there is nothing to ward, remove ward. If it adds nothing to the = collage and is not used then don't bother having it. Or on the other = hand you could just make it a ritual that people have to specifically = buy of their own free will and character choice so that if they want to = use it they will go and get it......oh wait thats how it is now. =20 I'm not saying that they have to buy ward. I am saying that they get = precious little benefit out of an high EM spell, that we never used to = have a problem dealing with before, when it was wardable, and that I = don't see why it is one, now. =20 The fact is it is not forced on people, it dosn't make them any less = effective as a collage to have he ritual and if it has uses thats great = if it dosn't then thats great too. It comes down to player choice. =20 No, it doesn't come down to player choice. It comes down to what is = good or useful to the game. The world is not defined by player choice, = it is defined by what makes for a good bloody game, not the democratic = wishes of a bunch of people who throw dice. =20 Making Dragonflames wardable does not add anything to the game = particularly, it dosn't add flavour to the collage, it dosn't even give = much more of a reason to purchase ward.=20 =20 Yes, it DOES add flavour. =20 The point of wards is that they add tension to the game. If you know = that you're always going to survive against them, or not suffer too = badly, then it's hard to invest much tension when players are dealing = with them. Yes, there are lots of ways of using wards, and no, I really = don't need lessons in working out what they are. What I am saying is = that a Fire mage should reasonably be able to inflict serious harm to = people that come into contact with their wards.=20 =20 At the moment, they just make them a little tired. They might make = some of their equipment burn, I suppose, but I've never seen that = happen. =20 And, frankly, it's irrelevant whether or not you think a player = would or would not buy Ward so that they can store Dragonflames. It is = important that NPCs be able to do so. If for no other reason than that = it provides another avenue by which to warn players that they are coming = up against someone with significant Ranks in Dragonflames. =20 As the DM, you can choose whether or not you're going to place = Dragonflames as a Ward, after all. =20 Jim =20 =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BFE1BE.9F2681C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Warding Dragonflames - why ward = non-lethal damage spells?...
 
George Mitchinson=20 wrote:

Let me make the point = again. Fire=20 mages have little else to do except inflict damage, which is = fine,=20 really. That's the kind of element that fire is. But, there = is=20 precious little point in having a ward that will not = potentially=20 kill people, because all it really does is provide them with = information, and makes them use up healing = potions.

To that end, = Dragonflames should=20 be wardable. 

Why not look at it from another=20 angle? 

If there is nothing to ward, remove ward. = If it=20 adds nothing to the collage and is not used then don't bother having = it. Or=20 on the other hand you could just make it a ritual that people have = to=20 specifically buy of their own free will and character choice so that = if they=20 want to use it they will go and get it......oh wait thats how it is=20 now.

I'm not saying that they have to = buy ward. I=20 am saying that they get precious little benefit out of an high EM = spell,=20 that we never used to have a problem dealing with before, when it = was=20 wardable, and that I don't see why it is one, now.

The fact is it is not forced on people, = it dosn't=20 make them any less effective as a collage to have he ritual and if = it has=20 uses thats great if it dosn't then thats great too. It comes down to = player=20 choice.

No, it doesn't come down to player = choice. It=20 comes down to what is good or useful to the game. The world is not = defined=20 by player choice, it is defined by what makes for a good bloody = game, not=20 the democratic wishes of a bunch of people who throw = dice.

Making Dragonflames wardable does not add = anything=20 to the game particularly, it dosn't add flavour to the collage, it = dosn't=20 even give much more of a reason to purchase ward.

Yes, it DOES add = flavour.

The point of = wards is that=20 they add tension to the game. If you know that you're always going = to=20 survive against them, or not suffer too badly, then it's hard to = invest much=20 tension when players are dealing with them. Yes, there are lots of = ways of=20 using wards, and no, I really don't need lessons in working out what = they=20 are. What I am saying is that a Fire mage should reasonably be able = to=20 inflict serious harm to people that come into contact with their = wards.=20

At the moment, they just make them a little tired. = They=20 might make some of their equipment burn, I suppose, but I've never = seen that=20 happen. 

And, frankly, it's irrelevant whether or not you = think a=20 player would or would not buy Ward so that they can store = Dragonflames. It=20 is important that NPCs be able to do so. If for no other reason than = that it=20 provides another avenue by which to warn players that they are = coming up=20 against someone with significant Ranks in = Dragonflames. 

As the DM, you can choose whether or not you're = going to=20 place Dragonflames as a Ward, after all. 

Jim 

 

------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BFE1BE.9F2681C0-- -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Jun 29 12:15:07 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id MAA26012; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 12:12:25 +1200 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id MAA26009 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 12:12:16 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p220-tnt2.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.245.220]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id MAA11306 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 12:10:31 +1200 Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 12:03:20 +1200 Message-ID: <01bfe15d$6f5f7c00$dcf56dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_002B_01BFE1C2.04945C00" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Astrologer is stuffed From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002B_01BFE1C2.04945C00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You shouldn't be able to ever change your answers if you don't like = them.=20 =20 I remember a party where Bart Toadswart, and One were on the same = party, and used their Astrology skill on me with malice aforethought. = Between them, they had six of the bloody things, and I had to write half = a dozen things.=20 =20 It took ages to write the frigging things, and then when they got = them, they decided that they'd change them all, so that they'd be = favourable. =20 I just told them that their die roll failed, and conspicuously did = not roll any dice. =20 Jim =20 ------=_NextPart_000_002B_01BFE1C2.04945C00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Astrologer is = stuffed

You shouldn't be able = to ever=20 change your answers if you don't like them.

I remember a party where Bart = Toadswart, and=20 One were on the same party, and used their Astrology skill on me = with malice=20 aforethought. Between them, they had six of the bloody things, and I = had to=20 write half a dozen things.

It took ages to write the frigging = things, and=20 then when they got them, they decided that they'd change them all, = so that=20 they'd be favourable.

I just told them that their die = roll failed,=20 and conspicuously did not roll any dice.

Jim

------=_NextPart_000_002B_01BFE1C2.04945C00-- -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Jun 29 12:17:22 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id MAA25961; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 12:08:43 +1200 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id MAA25958 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 12:08:40 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p220-tnt2.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.245.220]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id MAA10836 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 12:06:53 +1200 Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 11:59:42 +1200 Message-ID: <01bfe15c$edc33f60$dcf56dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001E_01BFE1C1.82F81F60" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Astrologer is stuffed From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01BFE1C1.82F81F60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Andrew Withy wrote: =20 The general reading and specific reading *concepts* seem fine - that = you can just ask "tell me about the problem", or "what is the answer to = this fragment of the problem" =20 I think that the numbers should be lower, and relate to the accuracy = of the astrology reading. Fore example, when I had Rank 0 Astrologer = (and no greater), I was at 90%+Rank for most of my BCs. This doesn't = give much reason to rank it. I'd be happier with general questions being = 2 x PC + 6/Rank, and specific questions being PC + 8/Rank or similar = numbers. =20 You shouldn't be able to ever change your answers if you don't like = them.=20 =20 Perhaps there should be a translation ability where astrologers will = get hints what astrology readings might mean or pertain to. =20 =20 =20 I suppose the first thing we should address with Astrologer that we = should address directly is what predictions and prophecies are used for. = =20 Derek Tomes once said in my hearing that a good prophecy is one = where all of the elements are true, but that you would never guess what = was going to happen when you first come across them. =20 Ultimately, prophecies and predictions are a tool of foreshadowing, = and foreshadowing does only one thing in an ideal world. It identifies = an element of the story as being significant, at the moment of climax. =20 In other words, it does not provide information at any point, it = merely adds story weight to an event or situation. This doesn't mean = that a prophecy doesn't have to include information, but that the = important information of the story won't be available to the players, = until the moment when it will provide the most dramatic impact. =20 You might, therefore, say that '...there is an evil in the Gorleant = Hills that must be cleansed', and that is simple information. =20 Then you might say that '...one among you will pass from this vale = of woe', and that could mean someone's going to die, or maybe move to = the next valley, where there's no woe, or whatever. That is = foreshadowing, and its meaning oughtn't to be revealed until some = dramatic climax is revealed.=20 =20 The best analogy I can think of is a joke.=20 =20 When someone tells you a joke, they set up a situation that you = expect, and when you reach the climax of the joke, you are led to what = you think is the only logical conclusion, and that such a conclusion is = as inevitable as day follows night. =20 The punchline of the joke, though, takes the rug out from under your = feet, because it offers a completely new way of looking at the = situation. =20 In the same way, foreshadowing and prophecies should lead players to = expect a sound, logical conclusion, but they should also provide a = sound, logical alternative conclusion, and that this conclusion is more = congruent with the rest of the story elements than the one they expect. = And, the real conclusion should, in an ideal world, be at odds with the = expected conclusion, as well. =20 Jim =20 =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01BFE1C1.82F81F60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Astrologer is = stuffed
 
Andrew Withy = wrote:
 

The general reading = and specific=20 reading *concepts* seem fine - that you can just ask "tell me = about the=20 problem", or "what is the answer to this fragment of the=20 problem"

I think that the = numbers should be=20 lower, and relate to the accuracy of the astrology reading. Fore = example,=20 when I had Rank 0 Astrologer (and no greater), I was at 90%+Rank for = most of=20 my BCs. This doesn't give much reason to rank it. I'd be happier = with=20 general questions being 2 x PC + 6/Rank, and specific questions = being PC +=20 8/Rank or similar numbers.

You shouldn't be able = to ever=20 change your answers if you don't like them.

Perhaps there should = be a=20 translation ability where astrologers will get hints what astrology = readings=20 might mean or pertain to.

 

I suppose the first thing we should address with = Astrologer=20 that we should address directly is what predictions and prophecies = are used=20 for.

Derek Tomes once said in my hearing that a good = prophecy is=20 one where all of the elements are true, but that you would never = guess what=20 was going to happen when you first come across them.

Ultimately, prophecies and predictions are a tool = of=20 foreshadowing, and foreshadowing does only one thing in an ideal = world. It=20 identifies an element of the story as being significant, at the = moment of=20 climax.

In other words, it does not provide information at = any=20 point, it merely adds story weight to an event or situation. This = doesn't=20 mean that a prophecy doesn't have to include information, but that = the=20 important information of the story won't be available to the = players, until=20 the moment when it will provide the most dramatic impact.

You might, therefore, say that '...there is an = evil in the=20 Gorleant Hills that must be cleansed', and that is simple=20 information. 

Then you might say that '...one among you will = pass from=20 this vale of woe', and that could mean someone's going to die, or = maybe move=20 to the next valley, where there's no woe, or whatever. That is=20 foreshadowing, and its meaning oughtn't to be revealed until some = dramatic=20 climax is revealed.  

The best analogy I can think of is a joke. =

When someone tells you a joke, they set up a = situation that=20 you expect, and when you reach the climax of the joke, you are led = to what=20 you think is the only logical conclusion, and that such a conclusion = is as=20 inevitable as day follows night. 

The punchline of the joke, though, takes the rug = out from=20 under your feet, because it offers a completely new way of looking = at the=20 situation. 

In the same way, foreshadowing and prophecies = should lead=20 players to expect a sound, logical conclusion, but they should also = provide=20 a sound, logical alternative conclusion, and that this conclusion is = more=20 congruent with the rest of the story elements than the one they = expect. And,=20 the real conclusion should, in an ideal world, be at odds with the = expected=20 conclusion, as well. 

Jim 

 

------=_NextPart_000_001E_01BFE1C1.82F81F60-- -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Jun 29 14:44:18 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id OAA26949; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 14:37:45 +1200 Received: from mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (mailhost.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.1.4]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id OAA26946 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 14:37:37 +1200 Received: from sci4 (lbr-122-42.lbrsc.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.122.42]) by mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (8.9.2/8.9.2/8.9.2-ua) with SMTP id OAA12881 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 14:35:43 +1200 (NZST) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 14:34:33 +1200 Message-ID: <000f01bfe172$8f475000$2a7ad882@sci4> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Subject: FW: Astrologer is stuffed From: "Michael Parkinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Jim said: > I suppose the first thing we should address with Astrologer that we should address > directly is what predictions and prophecies are used for. This is a key point. Frankly, I view astrology readings primarily as a device for the GM: to set the atmosphere, to highlight hooks or hints for the players. It is also, to a lesser extent, a tool for PCs since a party can gain great advantages if they ask the right question(s) -- and it's a way for the GM to show approval to a party for thinking. The reading are perhaps of three sorts: 1) the inscrutable e.g., "'til Burnham wood come to Dunsinane" which make no sense until a crucial part of the story later one. This is still of use to the party because they can realise that they are on the right track (or at least an interesting one). It can also prompt the party to reflect regularly on the situation. 2) the clear but inevitable e.g. "Beware the Ides of March" which adds to the tension. There's nothing much the players can do to avoid it, just to more ready for the disaster when it does happen. 3) Of course the most dramatic ones are, as Jim points out, are the clear one which are differently interpreted, depending on one's point of view -- in particularly before & after the event: > In the same way, foreshadowing and prophecies should lead players to expect a sound, logical > conclusion, but they should also provide a sound, logical alternative conclusion, and that this > conclusion is more congruent with the rest of the story elements than the one they > expect. And, the > real conclusion should, in an ideal world, be at odds with the expected conclusion, as well. an "historical" example would be: "If Croesus goes to war with Cyrus, he will destroy a mighty kingdom." Michael -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Jun 29 14:59:33 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id OAA27034; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 14:47:26 +1200 Received: from kcbbs.gen.nz (kcbbs.gen.nz [202.14.102.1]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id OAA27031 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 14:47:24 +1200 Received: from bear (c3640-as06.kcbbs.gen.nz [202.14.102.126]) by kcbbs.gen.nz (8.9.3/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA06888 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 14:43:53 +1200 (NZST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000629144443.00856940@kcbbs.gen.nz> X-Sender: salient@kcbbs.gen.nz X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 14:44:43 +1200 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: Astrologer is stuffed From: Sally Jackson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz At 17:39 28/06/00 +1200, Michael wrote: >Dear All, > >I'd like to start a discussion of what we want the Astrology skill to do. Yes, I would agree that it is "stuffed", as my impression of the way it is played doesn't tally with the rules as written. The way I see it working now, follows along the lines of Jim's post, that astrology readings are tools of foreshadowing; Also, I think that in some instances they are used more specifically, to give the party direction to go in, when they are given such a wide employment brief, such as "protect this person", which can leave the party floundering a bit. That readings given to the party are puzzles to be figured out, which in a way takes them out of the realm of the characters, to the realm of the players. [Previously, I have a character who has no faith in astrology readings, however I felt that the mission sucess depending on nutting out some meaning from them, and since I had time to think about them between sessions, I did.] I think this is a dis-incentive to ranking the skill. ie A high rank astrologer doesn't seem to be given a clearer reading to interpret. When it becomes obvious, that the party is missing the point of the reading (or is it just Michael Parkinsons') I think it could be better if the character with (high?) ranks in astrologer, could have the option of clarifying thier reading, spending more time studying their answer so to speak, so that the GM could give the player hints of how to go about tackling the reading. Is Astrologer skill limited to reading the night sky as the source of it's divinatory powers? I've had other sources like tarot, books, entrails, used on adventure for this purpose. How about a change in name, (Just for the sake of it, or course) to Soothsaying, and give these different methods as legit options for NPC/PC variation in development/style. I've personally not done much reading on these other forms, do they open up other realms of knowledge seeking, other than phrophecy and aspect reading, than could be incorporated into the game? Regards, Sally -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Jun 29 15:58:57 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id PAA27499; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 15:43:44 +1200 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (smtp2.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.8]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id PAA27496 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 15:43:40 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p95-tnt8.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.138.95]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id PAA10168 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 15:41:50 +1200 Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 15:34:38 +1200 Message-ID: <01bfe17a$f426b3a0$5f8a6dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Astrologer is stuffed From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz >Also, I think that in some instances they are used more specifically, to >give the party direction to go in, when they are given such a wide >employment brief, such as "protect this person", which can leave the party >floundering a bit. > >That readings given to the party are puzzles to be figured out, which in a >way takes them out of the realm of the characters, to the realm of the >players. [Previously, I have a character who has no faith in astrology >readings, however I felt that the mission sucess depending on nutting out >some meaning from them, and since I had time to think about them between >sessions, I did.] >I think this is a dis-incentive to ranking the skill. ie A high rank >astrologer doesn't seem to be given a clearer reading to interpret. It is fine to involve the players in the conflicts of their characters. It makes for a truer form of roleplaying. It engages the attention of the players, and makes them more part of the story that unfolds. Why, in God's name would you want to take the puzzle part out of the game. It seems to me, and I could have misread this post, that the point here is that the player chooses to make an Astrology reading, but then isn't happy in taking part in the product of that action. If the player weren't keen, then why would they have done it? I mean, there's no way in Hell that I'm going to reveal the nature of my story to players on the say so of a bit of paper in a book somewhere, and I don't give a rat's arse what the rules say. It just isn't going to happen. >When it becomes obvious, that the party is missing the point of the reading >(or is it just Michael Parkinsons') I think it could be better if the >character with (high?) ranks in astrologer, could have the option of >clarifying thier reading, spending more time studying their answer so to >speak, so that the GM could give the player hints of how to go about >tackling the reading. Maybe the DM could. Maybe the players should just leave it alone and move along a different path. The skill doesn't have to provide information in exclusion to other actions on the part of players. What skills like Astrology should not do is provide the only access to a story. It is simply a foreshadowing tool, or, I suppose, a clue generator when the party seem to have lost the plot a little. Nothing should replace ingenuity on the part of the players. That just breeds a situation where the only thing that happens is you compare skill values and stats, and then decide what the result will be...Which is pretty dull, really. >Is Astrologer skill limited to reading the night sky as the source of it's >divinatory powers? I've had other sources like tarot, books, entrails, >used on adventure for this purpose. How about a change in name, (Just for >the sake of it, or course) to Soothsaying, and give these different methods >as legit options for NPC/PC variation in development/style. It says you can use any divinatory means you like. If you want to read tarot cards, feel free, I would have said. Although, if you are going to be reading the fates in the entrails of members of your own race, I suppose the Duke may have something to say about it if you practice it in the middle of Seagate. >I've personally not done much reading on these other forms, do they open up >other realms of knowledge seeking, other than phrophecy and aspect reading, >than could be incorporated into the game? Who can say. It's a big, roleplaying universe out there, that needn't be bounded by what is said in a book somewhere. Jim -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Jun 29 16:58:51 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id QAA27955; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 16:49:49 +1200 Received: from mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (mailhost.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.1.4]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id QAA27952 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 16:49:40 +1200 Received: from sci4 (lbr-122-42.lbrsc.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.122.42]) by mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (8.9.2/8.9.2/8.9.2-ua) with SMTP id QAA06238 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 16:47:44 +1200 (NZST) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 16:46:34 +1200 Message-ID: <000a01bfe185$00bc3ea0$2a7ad882@sci4> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Subject: RE: Astrologer is stuffed From: "Michael Parkinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > I think this is a dis-incentive to ranking the skill. ie A high rank > astrologer doesn't seem to be given a clearer reading to interpret. > > When it becomes obvious, that the party is missing the point of the reading > (or is it just Michael Parkinsons') I think it could be better if the > character with (high?) ranks in astrologer, could have the option of > clarifying their reading, spending more time studying their answer so to > speak, so that the GM could give the player hints of how to go about > tackling the reading. This is a good point. I would be loathe to have a high ranked astrologer be given something in "plain English," but it would be reasonable for them -- particularly once they had observed at least part of the situation -- to get a *vague* impression of how valid their interpretation was [absolutely NOT a precise estimate, something on the order of "predict weather"]. NB "Valid" does not of course mean "correct." It would be a pity if the GM, having given something cunningly amphibolic, were forced to explain which of several valid interpretations was the actual case. The other option would be to junk the existing rule that no more than one reading can be made for a particular question. Given a Previous reading, perhaps the number of ancillary readings could be rank related [1 / 2 ranks or some such]. > Is Astrologer skill limited to reading the night sky as the source of it's > divinatory powers? I've had other sources like tarot, books, entrails, > used on adventure for this purpose. How about a change in name, (Just for > the sake of it, or course) to Soothsaying, and give these different methods > as legit options for NPC/PC variation in development/style. There are two forms which would seem to be relevant. "Divination" (Not in the Namer ritual sense) which involves observing something (the behaviour of birds, the state of entrails, the positions of celestial bodies) and reaching a conclusion. This may involve a few simple rules easily applied -- e.g., which side did they fly on & was it an unlucky number [Augury]; or require a vast knowledge of many principles and the ability to judge how such influence interact [Astrology] "Prophecy" where the prophet is overcome by a spirit / god / trance-like-state, often induced by or associated with physical activity &/or ordained ritual. The prophecy may be simplistic (e.g., in gyromancy, did the practitioner fall into or out of the circle) or sophisticated (e.g. an entranced oracle spouting verses). Not that both these practices may be considered sooth-saying, depending upon the culture. Whilst Astrology (star-gazing specifically) would represent a major, powerful, but very abstract divinatory technique, it does NOT represent the sense of prophesy we more normally experience in "astrology" [sic] readings. Hence I endorse the suggested name change (other alternatives would be Seer, Mystic, Fortune-teller, etc) > I've personally not done much reading on these other forms, do they open up > other realms of knowledge seeking, other than prophecy and aspect reading, > than could be incorporated into the game? Good point. -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Jun 29 17:13:56 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id RAA28105; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 17:11:31 +1200 Received: from mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (mailhost.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.1.4]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id RAA28102 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 17:11:28 +1200 Received: from sci4 (lbr-122-42.lbrsc.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.122.42]) by mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (8.9.2/8.9.2/8.9.2-ua) with SMTP id RAA09322 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 17:09:36 +1200 (NZST) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 17:08:26 +1200 Message-ID: <000b01bfe188$0eacc9f0$2a7ad882@sci4> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Subject: RE: Astrologer is stuffed From: "Michael Parkinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Jim said > Nothing should replace ingenuity on the part of the players. Absolutely! This should be a key matter of style which an redraft of the "skill" must bear in mind. Somethings it doesn't matter whether the players get an absolute answer to [e.g. Star sign; whether they will be betrayed; etc] > >Is Astrologer skill limited to reading the night sky as the source of it's > >divinatory powers? I've had other sources like tarot, books, entrails, > >used on adventure for this purpose. How about a change in name, (Just for > >the sake of it, or course) to Soothsaying, and give these different methods > >as legit options for NPC/PC variation in development/style. > > It says you can use any divinatory means you like. If you want to read > tarot cards, feel free, I would have said. Although, if you are going to be > reading the fates in the entrails of members of your own race, I suppose the > Duke may have something to say about it if you practice it in the middle of > Seagate. Indeed. In these enlightened times, I believe that MMHS no longer tortures its free citizens [it merely obliges them to participate in certain prognostic or divinatory rituals]. Different techniques would have different results: e.g. a "vision" of a suspended sword; a poem; a warning against accidental reversals in business; knowledge that one is under a cloud of misfortune; etc. Naturally, the technique employed should also bear in mind what the _GM_ is prepared to tell the players. As a GM, there are times when the "ritual of reading the night sky" or a "precognition" has been awkward because the *type* of imformation it shoulc give the player was something I was not willing to supply. -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Jun 29 19:28:34 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id TAA29088; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 19:22:04 +1200 Received: from smtp4.ihug.co.nz (smtp4.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.5]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id TAA29084 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 19:22:00 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p203-tnt1.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.111.203]) by smtp4.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id TAA11839 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 19:21:56 +1200 Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 19:14:49 +1200 Message-ID: <01bfe199$b65da6e0$cb6f12ce@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Astrologer is stuffed From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Perhaps it is time to review what we want from Astrology. Later revisions can always be done, but I think that we have determined some valuable points worth considering. 1) Astrology should provide foreshadowing, and perhaps a direction in which players might move. 2) The players should not be able to deny the current prophecy and try again, thus requiring the DM to produce a new prophecy. 3) At higher Ranks, an Astrologer might acquire some insight into the workings of their prophecy, as they move through it. 4) That other divinatory techniques might be applied than simply looking at the stars, and that perhaps the name might change to reflect this. Have I missed anything? Jim -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Jun 29 20:13:31 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id TAA29333; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 19:58:42 +1200 Received: from mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (mailhost.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.1.4]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id TAA29330 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 19:58:39 +1200 Received: from sci4 (lbr-122-42.lbrsc.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.122.42]) by mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (8.9.2/8.9.2/8.9.2-ua) with SMTP id TAA20879 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 19:58:36 +1200 (NZST) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 19:57:25 +1200 Message-ID: <000201bfe19f$a9b081f0$2a7ad882@sci4> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Subject: RE: Astrologer is stuffed From: "Michael Parkinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Perhaps it is time to review what we want from Astrology. Later revisions > can always be done, but I think that we have determined some valuable points > worth considering. Agreed. Since the skill as written doesn't work in almost every aspect -- it should be written anew > 1) Astrology should provide foreshadowing, and perhaps a direction in which > players might move. > 2) The players should not be able to deny the current prophecy and try > again, thus requiring the DM to produce a new prophecy. > 3) At higher Ranks, an Astrologer might acquire some insight into the > workings of their prophecy, as they move through it. > 4) That other divinatory techniques might be applied than simply looking at > the stars, and that perhaps the name might change to reflect this. > > Have I missed anything? I would agree with all these. The only addition -- crucial to any undertaking during the classical, dark, middle & Reagan ages -- would be: 5) The attempted identification of "lucky" & "unlucky days." [Interpreted in game mechanics, perhaps, as days with modifiers to dice rolls of 1 or 2 %, like a longer but weaker version of seasonal aspects. Or whatever] We may as well retain the idea (but *not* the numbers) of the existing ability to 6) Identification of the Aspect of a being. and perhaps some extend it to include related or similar *weak* identification of magical &/or doom/curse-like effects present on a being -- the stories of gypsies recognising were-wolves by marks on their hands; prophets or wise-women recognising royalty in disguise or unaware of their state; etc -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Jun 29 20:43:38 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id UAA29631; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 20:37:57 +1200 Received: from smtp4.ihug.co.nz (smtp4.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.5]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id UAA29628 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 20:37:54 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p256-tnt6.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.136.2]) by smtp4.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id UAA18286 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 20:37:48 +1200 Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 20:30:42 +1200 Message-ID: <01bfe1a4$502129a0$cb6f12ce@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Astrologer is stuffed From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > >and perhaps some extend it to include related or similar *weak* identification of magical &/or >doom/curse-like effects present on a being -- the stories of gypsies recognising were-wolves by >marks on their hands; prophets or wise-women recognising royalty in disguise or unaware of their >state; etc I like that they could detect the effect of curses, dooms, fates, etc. Why don't we make it a wider ability. Magic that concerns itself with fate doesn't really make itself known in the game as it currently stands, except as far as curses are concerned, and it would be kind of nice if it existed somewhere. Why don't we make that the core of a revised Astrology skill. Perhaps they could even have some skill at manipulating dooms and fates. Sounds pretty funky, I reckon. -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Jun 29 20:46:34 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id UAA29576; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 20:31:15 +1200 Received: from smtp4.ihug.co.nz (smtp4.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.5]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id UAA29573 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 20:31:12 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p203-tnt1.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.111.203]) by smtp4.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id UAA17572 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 20:31:06 +1200 Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 20:24:00 +1200 Message-ID: <01bfe1a3$6084d4a0$cb6f12ce@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Astrologer is stuffed From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Michael Parkinson wrote: >I would agree with all these. The only addition -- crucial to any undertaking during the >classical, dark, middle & Reagan ages -- would be: > >5) The attempted identification of "lucky" & "unlucky days." [Interpreted in game mechanics, >perhaps, as days with modifiers to dice rolls of 1 or 2 %, like a longer but weaker version of >seasonal aspects. Or whatever] I'm kind of loath to use numbers to define a auspiciousness. I mean, luck is not really just a penalty or a bonus to a given percentile roll...It's more...Perhaps, how it should work is that the DM can assign a floating of modifier of, say, 5-10 points that he applies to make a roll succeed or fail at a dramatic moment. Once it is used, the moment of luck, ill or beneficial is gone. So, if you are casting at someone on a bad day, and you screw it up royally, then the DM might choose to apply the 5 point bonus, if that would take it into the region of a backfire. On a good day, he might penalise a bad guy by 5 points, if that would mean that they fail their resistance roll.... >We may as well retain the idea (but *not* the numbers) of the existing ability to > >6) Identification of the Aspect of a being. > >and perhaps some extend it to include related or similar *weak* identification of magical &/or >doom/curse-like effects present on a being -- the stories of gypsies recognising were-wolves by >marks on their hands; prophets or wise-women recognising royalty in disguise or unaware of their >state; etc I don't really care one way or another if players can determine the aspects of my NPCs, or their own, or their companions...It's pretty minor whatever happens. Yeah, sure. But, I really like the idea of an Astrologer being able to detect people by their dooms...That would have mean beating a path to the orrery, let me tell you... Of course, at this stage, I have no bloody idea what it does...Sounds damned cool, though -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Jun 29 21:13:40 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id VAA29857; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 21:06:21 +1200 Received: from mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (mailhost.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.1.4]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id VAA29853 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 21:06:16 +1200 Received: from sci4 (lbr-122-42.lbrsc.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.122.42]) by mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (8.9.2/8.9.2/8.9.2-ua) with SMTP id VAA24039 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 21:06:11 +1200 (NZST) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 21:05:00 +1200 Message-ID: <000301bfe1a9$1ac27f20$2a7ad882@sci4> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Subject: RE: Astrologer is stuffed From: "Michael Parkinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > I'm kind of loath to use numbers to define a auspiciousness. I mean, > luck is not really just a penalty or a bonus to a given percentile > roll...It's more... Yes, it is awkward. I have a vague sense of the feel I want, I just don't know how it should be done -- Not as in C&S has it, where you visit the Fortune-teller & randomly get +5 or -5 on BCs for the entire adventure. Something that encourages more peasant/townsfolk superstition. Anyway -- that's details. Its the idea that's important. -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Jun 29 21:28:31 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id VAA29983; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 21:18:18 +1200 Received: from mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (mailhost.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.1.4]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id VAA29980 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 21:18:14 +1200 Received: from sci4 (lbr-122-42.lbrsc.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.122.42]) by mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (8.9.2/8.9.2/8.9.2-ua) with SMTP id VAA24494 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 21:18:09 +1200 (NZST) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 21:16:58 +1200 Message-ID: <000401bfe1aa$c6f491b0$2a7ad882@sci4> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Subject: RE: Astrologer is stuffed From: "Michael Parkinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > >and perhaps some extend it to include related or similar *weak* > identification of magical &/or > >doom/curse-like effects present on a being -- the stories of gypsies > recognising were-wolves by > >marks on their hands; prophets or wise-women recognising royalty in > disguise or unaware of their > >state; etc > > > I like that they could detect the effect of curses, dooms, > fates, etc. Why > don't we make it a wider ability. Magic that concerns itself with fate > doesn't really make itself known in the game as it currently > stands, except > as far as curses are concerned, and it would be kind of nice if > it existed > somewhere. > Why don't we make that the core of a revised Astrology skill. > Perhaps they > could even have some skill at manipulating dooms and fates. Sounds pretty > funky, I reckon. I hadn't thought of that: I like it it give a wide spectrum. From the witch who sees omens in everything & the [almost] charletan who averts ill-luck & wealth from the credulous, to the Wizard-like figure in robes & staff who distains mere magical colleges because he deals with the pure stuff of Fate & Doom. (Yet still has time to pop out with a couple of mates to visit likely prospects in foreign cities) Michael -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Jun 29 22:43:43 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id WAA30476; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 22:36:31 +1200 Received: from qedweb.qed.co.nz ([203.97.23.140] (may be forged)) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id WAA30473 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 22:36:27 +1200 Received: by localhost with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 22:35:03 +1200 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 22:35:03 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain Subject: Astrology - Getting into details From: Stephen Martin To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz I like the idea of a structure to the skill like many of the others in DQ. Astrology (or whatever it'll be called) is divided into styles, each style is able to achieve different results. An Astrologer is initially taught one style by their master, great astrologers have been known to master 3 or even 4 different styles (1 at Rk0, +1 at ranks 5, 8, 9, and 10). The greatest divinations are achieved by combining multiple styles in one reading. Styles: Astrology: Reading the night sky. - Abilities: Forecast significant times or events. If details of the sky a person was born under are known then some correlation between them and the times and events may be determined. Tarot, Rune Sticks/Stones: Interpreting the seemingly random pattern of their tools. - Abilties: Gain insight into the past, present, and future of a person who is involved in the reading. ??: Reading the entrails of recently slaughtered creatures - usually animals. - Abilities: May determine things about people and environments that the animal has interacted with. E.g. the state of the land the animal lived in and how likely crops are to succeed, or whether hunting will be fruitful. Or the health (or cause of ill-health) of someone may be determined by reading the entrails of their favourite pet or horse. Where healers are limited to an entities physical well being an Astrologer can usually divine the malign effects of Dooms and curses. "Nature Gazing": Looking for visions in the natural elements of the world (Fire, Water, Clouds...) - Abilities: Visions of events or people associated with the element and the astrologer may be seen by studying natural elements. Most astrologers will have an element that they prefer to work with. The visions are usually accurate but rarely are of the desired subject at the desired time. Trance: Through meditation, deprivation, drugs, etc the astrology enters a trance where they see visions, hear vioces. Usually collapse during the vision or speak what they see/hear or sometime both. - Abilities: Gain powerful but frequently obscure visions of the future or of people/places/events at great distance. "Body Reading": Examine the eyes, skull, or other body parts to divine information about somebody. - Abilities: Similar to entrail reading wrt people but it requires the person to be present. Not as detailed as entrails but some information can be gained simply from observing someone for a while. Commune with Spirits: Commune with the spirits of the dead through trance, ritual, and/or possession. - Abilties: To ask questions of the dead, the more questions and less sympathetic the dead, the more dangerous it is... ... I'm sure that there are many more styles and names for most of them, but this should give you some idea of what I was thinking. Cheers, Stephen. > -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Jun 29 23:13:31 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id XAA30670; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 23:08:38 +1200 Received: from smtp4.ihug.co.nz (smtp4.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.5]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id XAA30667 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 23:08:34 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p295-tnt6.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.136.41]) by smtp4.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id XAA01533 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 23:08:25 +1200 Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 23:01:04 +1200 Message-ID: <01bfe1b9$51d3d620$29886dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Astrology - Getting into details From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Stephen Martin wrote: >I like the idea of a structure to the skill like many of the others in DQ. > >Astrology (or whatever it'll be called) is divided into styles, each style >is able to achieve different results. An Astrologer is initially taught one >style by their master, great astrologers have been known to master 3 or even >4 different styles (1 at Rk0, +1 at ranks 5, 8, 9, and 10). The greatest >divinations are achieved by combining multiple styles in one reading. > >Styles: etc., etc., etc... >... I'm sure that there are many more styles and names for most of them, but >this should give you some idea of what I was thinking. > The problem, as I see it, with a format like this, is that it is actually narrowing for a player. So many options are covered by the rule, that the player has little to bring to the game, other than making a choice and spending xp. It is better to let the player make the choice on what things they want to develop in their character, so long as they don't directly impact on the nature of the game. So, yes, maybe it would be nice to have styles of prophecy that differ in the way you've set out. But, there's no particular reason to establish them inside the skill at particular Ranks. All that is doing is saying to a player 'you can do x, but you can't do y'. And, in addition, by splitting up the skill in this fashion, you force the character to develop other kinds of prophetic art just so that they can get the most bang for the xp buck. In addition, it narrows the focus of the skill to a point that is so specific, that it loses much of the wonder of the kind of nebulous ravings of people who deal with forces beyond the wit of mortal men. And, ultimately, the question is 'What do we want Astrologers to be able to do?' What you have suggested answers a different question, which is 'What way do Astrologers do what they do?' And, frankly, I don't care that much. I'd leave it in the hands of players to come up with something special and individual. Jim -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Jun 30 09:58:32 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id JAA01541; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 09:44:37 +1200 Received: from defacto.peace.co.nz (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id JAA01538 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 09:44:33 +1200 Message-ID: <395BBEA5.94BA5FF6@peace.com> Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 09:24:53 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Skill Structure [was Re: Astrology - Getting into details] From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Stephen Martin wrote: >4 different styles (1 at Rk0, +1 at ranks 5, 8, 9, and 10). The greatest >divinations are achieved by combining multiple styles in one reading. Jim Arona wrote: > The problem, as I see it, with a format like this, is that it is actually > narrowing for a player. [snip] > And, in addition, by splitting up > the skill in this fashion, you force the character to develop other kinds of > prophetic art just so that they can get the most bang for the xp buck. Tangential to Astrologer; this general discussion has come up before, and I believe both sides have merit. Most of the original DQ skills were/are very broad and nebulous and there was little to differentiate (for example) two Rank 5 Astrologers. On the other hand, two Rank 5 Troubadours may have had little in common. At times, the collective GM opinion has tended towards preferring the Troub model as it help differentiate character skills and often means that a lower ranked character is not fully over-shadowed in ability by a higher ranked one in the same party -- our parties being more random collections of character abilities and not of the usual "crafted" variety in RPG campaigns, where new PCs tend to be chosen to fit with the existing ones. However, as Jim rightly points out, one of the problems with the Troub model is a game/EP pressure is put on players to pick up areas that are outside the primary focus/original conception of the character. The current choice in models is either "broad" (all areas at all ranks, gaining skill at each rank), or "narrow, broadening with rank", (few areas initially, gaining more with rank). For Astrologer (to head back in the direction of the original topic), this means either gaining all Astro abilities (and being able to choose for character reasons to only do entrail readings), or gaining entrail readings at low rank and then being pressured into taking other divinatory areas as skill increases. On an abstract level, you either get a rainbow coloured "block" at each rank, or at one rank you get to choose a blue block, at the next a red block and so on. One possible solution is a synthesis of approach; allowing "narrow" to become "deep" rather than "broad" with rank. (Choose a blue block, next rank choose another blue block, etc. End result: only blue blocks, but lots of them). This avoids forcing players to pick up areas they feel their character wouldn't learn, but also provides for the least overlap in character skills within a party mix. Two PCs could have similar rank with the same skill and yet be dedicated specialists in different areas. A character could also mix broad and deep to get a balance of generalist and specialist (blue, red, blue, white, blue, green, etc.). I'm not sure how we could best offer "narrow but deep" skills within DQ but it would (at least on paper) appear some benefits. Comments? Possible benefits/problems/undesirable effects? Cheers, Martin -- _/_/ Peace Software New Zealand Ltd Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com _/ Martin Dickson Fax : +64-9-373-0401 Analyst Phone: +64-9-373-0400 -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Jun 30 10:13:33 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id KAA01720; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 10:12:17 +1200 Received: from qedweb.qed.co.nz ([203.97.23.140] (may be forged)) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id KAA01717 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 10:12:13 +1200 Received: by localhost with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 10:10:35 +1200 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 10:10:34 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain Subject: RE: Skill Structure [was Re: Astrology - Getting into details] From: Stephen Martin To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz The current structure for Troubadour offers a solution to the Narrow but deep issue, being able to pick the same skill multiple times and increase effective rank in that skill beyond your general rank. An example of this working reasonably well for a character is Jade, who wants to be an excellent acrobat but has no interest in singing, or entertaining. She is a Rank 4 Troubadour with the abilty to tight-rope walk and swallow fire at Rk 4 ('cos she had to pick three different skills at rank 0) and can perform Acrobatics at Rk 8. > -----Original Message----- > From: Martin Dickson [SMTP:martin.dickson@peace.com] > Sent: Friday, 30 June 2000 09:25 > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Subject: Skill Structure [was Re: Astrology - Getting into details] > > I'm not sure how we could best offer "narrow but deep" skills within DQ > but it > would (at least on paper) appear some benefits. > > Comments? Possible benefits/problems/undesirable effects? > > Cheers, > Martin > > -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Jun 30 10:43:51 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id KAA01919; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 10:42:36 +1200 Received: from mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (mailhost.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.1.4]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id KAA01916 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 10:42:30 +1200 Received: from sci4 (lbr-122-42.lbrsc.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.122.42]) by mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (8.9.2/8.9.2/8.9.2-ua) with SMTP id KAA22426 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 10:42:04 +1200 (NZST) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 10:40:52 +1200 Message-ID: <000001bfe21b$149819d0$2a7ad882@sci4> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Subject: RE: Skill Structure [was Re: Astrology - Getting into details] From: "Michael Parkinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of > Martin Dickson > Sent: Friday, 30 June 2000 09:25 > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Subject: Skill Structure [was Re: Astrology - Getting into details] > > Stephen Martin wrote: > > >4 different styles (1 at Rk0, +1 at ranks 5, 8, 9, and 10). > The greatest > >divinations are achieved by combining multiple styles in one reading. > > Jim Arona wrote: > > > The problem, as I see it, with a format like this, is that it > is actually > > narrowing for a player. [...] Actually, with troubador, we do have a mechanism whereby, for the same xp impulse, the PC can have narrow but strong skills, or broad but weaker skills. Namely re-selecting the same choice -- as discussed below by Martin. However, having said that, I suspect that may not be the right model (although the fact that it is available for Troubador & courtier may argue for it). The other alternative would be "picking-up" extra fields at a certain e.p. cost but probably with a restriction on the number of fields permissible. I do think it is important that the PC be able to choose their technique and that not all techniques will give answers. Many classic divinatory or prophecy techniques are analogous to flipping a coin which is in tune with the cosmos -- with the results of Yes, No, & Did anyone see where it rolled to? > Most of the original DQ skills were/are very broad and nebulous > and there was > little to differentiate (for example) two Rank 5 Astrologers. > On the other > hand, two Rank 5 Troubadours may have had little in common. Indeed -- Likewise Beastmasters, courtiers, etc. But any two Rank 5 Healers are interchangeable -- only their base chances & reservoirs of fatigue differentiate them. Given the quirkiness or flavour of the many different forms of fortune-telling (especially those inflicted on the party by GMs), I think we do want to have a system that provides several way of answering a particular problem, probably of varying efficacy or effort. I like Martin's block method -- perhaps something like a simplified Philosopher set up. When you reach the next rank, choose another Broad Type of practice, or become more refined in "x" specific techniques. > However, as Jim rightly points out, one of the problems with the > Troub model is > a game/EP pressure is put on players to pick up areas that are > outside the > primary focus/original conception of the character. The current > choice in > models is either "broad" (all areas at all ranks, gaining skill > at each rank), > or "narrow, broadening with rank", (few areas initially, gaining > more with > rank). For Astrologer (to head back in the direction of the > original topic), > this means either gaining all Astro abilities (and being able to > choose for > character reasons to only do entrail readings), or gaining > entrail readings at > low rank and then being pressured into taking other divinatory > areas as skill > increases. On an abstract level, you either get a rainbow > coloured "block" at > each rank, or at one rank you get to choose a blue block, at the > next a red > block and so on. > > One possible solution is a synthesis of approach; allowing > "narrow" to become > "deep" rather than "broad" with rank. (Choose a blue block, > next rank choose > another blue block, etc. End result: only blue blocks, but lots > of them). This > avoids forcing players to pick up areas they feel their > character wouldn't > learn, but also provides for the least overlap in character > skills within a > party mix. Two PCs could have similar rank with the same skill > and yet be > dedicated specialists in different areas. A character could > also mix broad and > deep to get a balance of generalist and specialist (blue, red, > blue, white, > blue, green, etc.). > > I'm not sure how we could best offer "narrow but deep" skills > within DQ but it > would (at least on paper) appear some benefits. > > Comments? Possible benefits/problems/undesirable effects? > > Cheers, > Martin > > -- > > _/_/ Peace Software New Zealand Ltd Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com > _/ Martin Dickson Fax : +64-9-373-0401 > Analyst Phone: +64-9-373-0400 > > > > > -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- > -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Jun 30 10:58:58 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id KAA02021; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 10:55:21 +1200 Received: from defacto.peace.co.nz (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id KAA02018 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 10:55:18 +1200 Message-ID: <395BCF38.A777001F@peace.com> Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 10:35:36 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Skill Structure [was Re: Astrology - Getting into details] From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Stephen Martin wrote: > The current structure for Troubadour offers a solution to the Narrow but > deep issue... Yes, but it was done quick and dirty and may not be the best example of the model. > An example of this working reasonably well for a character is Jade ...Rank 4 > Troubadour...can perform Acrobatics at Rk 8. And at Rk 5 can have Acrobatics at Rk10. However, at Rk 6 she is going to have to pick up some other ability or deepen one of the other two she has. Rk 10 remains the cap. -- _/_/ Peace Software New Zealand Ltd Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com _/ Martin Dickson Fax : +64-9-373-0401 Analyst Phone: +64-9-373-0400 -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Jun 30 11:29:07 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id LAA02134; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 11:14:21 +1200 Received: from smtp4.ihug.co.nz (smtp4.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.5]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id LAA02131 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 11:14:18 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p101-tnt8.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.138.101]) by smtp4.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id LAA06248 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 11:13:53 +1200 Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 11:06:23 +1200 Message-ID: <01bfe21e$a5463040$658a6dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Skill Structure [was Re: Astrology - Getting into details] From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Stephen Martin and Martin Dickson have talked, in various posts, about breaking the skill down in different ways, etc. Frankly, I'm not keen. I can see what is being attempted, but I don't see that it achieves very much for the Skill. It may be that it is worth looking at in the future (I don't agree, by the way), but whatever else is happening, it doesn't lead any closer to addressing what happens with Astrologer. Whether or not the skill is broken up into lots of little bits, with bonuses for this, and a special ability to do that, is really kind of irrelevant, until such time as it is decided what direction Astrologer will take. The part of the skill that's being addressed at the moment is the most cosmetic part. We have not, at this point, decided what sort of thing we want the skill to be capable of. That must be our first consideration. Decisions on how it is to be achieved is a much later concern. Having determined what the skill actually can do, we need to work out how we want the numbers to resolve. As far as I can see, discussing this a complete waste of time until the other issues have been dealt with. And, more than simply wasting time, it actually reduces our ability to develop something productive as the issue gets derailed into which format makes for the best choice. Furthermore, if in fact a format is chosen, then it will constrain the variety of different kinds of skill that could be developed. I proprose that we deal with the skill's format at such time as we have something to discuss. Jim -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Jun 30 12:28:56 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id MAA02589; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 12:19:54 +1200 Received: from defacto.peace.co.nz (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id MAA02586 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 12:19:50 +1200 Message-ID: <395BE304.75667C05@peace.com> Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 12:00:04 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Skill Structure [nothing at all to do with Astrology] From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Hi Jim, Jim Arona wrote: > It may be that it is worth looking at in the future (I don't agree, by the > way), but whatever else is > happening, it doesn't lead any closer to addressing what happens with > Astrologer.. Your comments on specialization (in response to Stephen) got me thinking again about other generic ways that we might approach skill structures in DQ other than simply either making them broad or making them narrow. This was not intended as a discussion of Astrologer, hence the change of subject line away from Astrology, and the abstract use of "blocks" rather than actual skill specifics. > We have not, at this point, decided what sort of thing we want the skill to > be capable of. > That must be our first consideration. Decisions on how it is to be achieved > is a much later concern. Absolutely. It is completely pointless to attempt to build a solution until the user requirements are sorted. It does not however make general discussion of solution meta-language irrelevant. Irrespective of which skill we are discussing many of the campaign pressures remain constant (party mixes, longevity, etc). Finding high level structures that would work well within the campaign gives us extra modelling tools to apply to our user requirements -- once we sort out what they are. > I proprose that we deal with the skill's format at such time as we have > something to discuss. Agreed. In the meantime I will happily discuss blue and green skill blocks with whomever feels interested. Those of you expecting this to provide specific answers to Astrologer, listen to Jim. Nothing to see here, move along, move along. Regards, Martin -- _/_/ Peace Software New Zealand Ltd Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com _/ Martin Dickson Fax : +64-9-373-0401 Analyst Phone: +64-9-373-0400 -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Jun 30 13:00:57 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id MAA02885; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 12:49:40 +1200 Received: from defacto.peace.co.nz (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id MAA02881 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 12:49:37 +1200 Message-ID: <395BE9FD.6E53F358@peace.com> Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 12:29:49 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Astrologer is stuffed From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Michael Parkinson wrote: > ...prophets or wise-women recognising royalty in disguise or unaware of their > state; etc Royalty unaware of their state are traditionally recognized by oddly shaped birthmarks. Looking around real world royalty we might also surmise that buck teeth, horsey noses and no chin assist in identification. :) Hmmm... phrenology? -- _/_/ Peace Software New Zealand Ltd Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com _/ Martin Dickson Fax : +64-9-373-0401 Analyst Phone: +64-9-373-0400 -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Jun 30 13:02:59 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id MAA02918; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 12:53:17 +1200 Received: from fep4-orange.clear.net.nz (fep4-orange.clear.net.nz [203.97.32.4]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id MAA02915 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 12:53:11 +1200 Received: from comms.maclean.co.nz (b002-m010-p043.acld.clear.net.nz [203.167.200.107]) by fep4-orange.clear.net.nz (1.5/1.6) with ESMTP id MAA22045; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 12:52:27 +1200 (NZST) Received: by comms.maclean.co.nz with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) id ; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 12:30:58 +1200 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 12:30:56 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) Content-Type: text/plain Subject: RE: Skill Structure [nothing at all to do with Astrology] From: Tom Mason To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Your comments on specialization (in response to Stephen) got me thinking again about other generic ways that we might approach skill structures in DQ other than simply either making them broad or making them narrow. This was not intended as a discussion of Astrologer, hence the change of subject line away from Astrology, and the abstract use of "blocks" rather than actual skill specifics. Can we have a look at the unarmed skill in this new discussion. Tom -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Jun 30 13:04:37 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id MAA02826; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 12:44:41 +1200 Received: from defacto.peace.co.nz (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id MAA02823 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 12:44:38 +1200 Message-ID: <395BE8D2.ADA8F2B8@peace.com> Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 12:24:50 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Astrologer is stuffed From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Jim Arona wrote: > I like that they could detect the effect of curses, dooms, fates, etc ... > Why don't we make that the core of a revised Astrology skill. Perhaps they > could even have some skill at manipulating dooms and fates. Sounds pretty > funky, I reckon. The "Sleeping Beauty" effect. Evil fairy says: "When she is 16 she will prick her finger in a spindle and DIE!". Good fairy says: "Well, I can't get rid of it, but I can modify it... She will not actually die, but will fall into a slumber almost indistinguishable from death until...", etc. Being able to re-interpret and thus modify dooms, fates, etc, does sound well within the purvey of Astrologers, and a desirable ability. I'm just not sure how much the PCs would be able to control it -- as a GM I wouldn't want to see this as an easy way of removing a well earned doom, although it would be reasonable for an Astrologer to perhaps be able to provide information on how the doom could be ameliorated or lifted. -- _/_/ Peace Software New Zealand Ltd Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com _/ Martin Dickson Fax : +64-9-373-0401 Analyst Phone: +64-9-373-0400 -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Jun 30 13:06:24 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id MAA02810; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 12:43:41 +1200 Received: from fclaklmr02.fcl.co.nz ([202.14.23.202] (may be forged)) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id MAA02807 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 12:43:36 +1200 Received: from falaklex00.falum.co.nz (10.8.1.28) by fclaklmr02.fcl.co.nz Friday, June 30, 2000 12:39:32 Message-ID: Received: by falaklex00.fcl.co.nz with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 12:42:42 +1200 Message-ID: <311B3C3DD32FD311B33900805F770A7202261375@falaklex00.fcl.co.nz> Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 12:42:33 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01BFE22C.193C2D00" Subject: RE: Skill Structure [nothing at all to do with Astrology] From: "Andrew Withy (FAL AKL)" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01BFE22C.193C2D00 Content-Type: text/plain Talking of coloured blocks, how high can you stack your coloured blocks? Can you get as many blue blocks in a multi-colour stack as you can in a purely blue stack, albeit more slowly, or should a blue tower br inherently capable of holding more blue blocks (within human limits, of course). To use the conveniently provided example, in the time that many people would have 4 of each of many (?7?) types of blocks, someone has built a tower of 8 jade blocks, with 4 blocks of each of two other colours. Why should they be limited to 10 jade blocks ever? Why do the number of other supporting blocks need to increase whenever more jade blocks are added? Would it be easier to just stack more jade blocks, or would the tower become unstable if other colours weren't added? If we don't want everyone to use the same mix of blocks at each height of the tower, why do we limit specialisation? Should people be able to just buy jade blocks without any other sort of blocks, or should there be a minimum colour mix ratio? Would the cost be reduced if only certain colours were added, or if certain colours were forever banned from the tower? Can people build a series of low-rise dwellings with the same blocks that they could have built their tower with, and if so, is it as "cost-efficient" or should we not worry about efficiency when freedom of expression is now available? Hey Martin, the coloured block metaphor is quite flexible. Supply-chain solutions become sensible ranking business for specialists in certain professions. Andrew > -----Original Message----- > In the meantime I will happily discuss blue and green skill blocks with > whomever feels interested. Those of you expecting this to provide specific > answers to Astrologer, listen to Jim. Nothing to see here, move along, > move > along. > > Regards, > Martin > > ------_=_NextPart_001_01BFE22C.193C2D00 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Skill Structure [nothing at all to do with = Astrology]

Talking of coloured = blocks, how high can you stack your coloured blocks? Can you get as = many blue blocks in a multi-colour stack as you can in a purely blue = stack, albeit more slowly, or should a blue tower br inherently capable = of holding more blue blocks (within human limits, of = course).

To use the = conveniently provided example, in the time that many people would have = 4 of each of many (?7?) types of blocks, someone has built a tower of 8 = jade blocks, with 4 blocks of each of two other colours. Why should = they be limited to 10 jade blocks ever? Why do the number of other = supporting blocks need to increase whenever more jade blocks are added? = Would it be easier to just stack more jade blocks, or would the tower = become unstable if other colours weren't added? If we don't want = everyone to use the same mix of blocks at each height of the tower, why = do we limit specialisation? Should people be able to just buy jade = blocks without any other sort of blocks, or should there be a minimum = colour mix ratio? Would the cost be reduced if only certain colours = were added, or if certain colours were forever banned from the tower? = Can people build a series of low-rise dwellings with the same blocks = that they could have built their tower with, and if so, is it as = "cost-efficient" or should we not worry about efficiency when = freedom of expression is now available?

Hey Martin, the = coloured block metaphor is quite flexible. Supply-chain solutions = become sensible ranking business for specialists in certain = professions.

Andrew

    -----Original Message-----
    In the meantime I will happily = discuss blue and green skill blocks with
    whomever feels interested. Those of = you expecting this to provide specific
    answers to Astrologer, listen to = Jim.  Nothing to see here, move along, move
    along.

    Regards,
             &nb= sp;      Martin


------_=_NextPart_001_01BFE22C.193C2D00-- -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Jun 30 13:44:06 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id NAA03352; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 13:40:12 +1200 Received: from defacto.peace.co.nz (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id NAA03349 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 13:40:09 +1200 Message-ID: <395BF5D1.AF053728@peace.com> Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 13:20:17 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Skill Structure [nothing at all to do with Astrology] From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tom Mason wrote: > Can we have a look at the unarmed skill in this new discussion. Ummm... no? :) I don't say that to be autocratic... just that the intent is to discuss skill structure at a high level with regards to pressures and outcomes. I agree wholeheartedly with Jim in that there is no point attempting a solution fit until we have decided what the requirements are. Do we know what the requirements for Unarmed are? There will be certain requirements that should remain constant no matter what skill (or other part of the game) we are discussing. Usability is one of these. There are generic requirements created by the form of the campaign -- semi-random character mixes every 3 months, and lots of PCs suggest (at least IMHO) that designing with an eye to character variety is desirable. The longevity of the campaign and the longevity of PCs suggest that depth of ability is desirable (aka "top out syndrome"). If people feel that unarmed combat is an area to examine and perhaps re-work then user requirement analysis is the first step. Some questions that would be worth answering are: What style of unarmed combat do we want? (Boxing, Brawling, Greco-Roman wrestling, Karate) What flavour/genre do we want? (Basically realistic, Martial arts movies, Gemmel novels) How important do we want to make unarmed? (Most important combat skill, used only rarely as a desperate measure) How detailed do we want it? (Precise moves, general intent, narrative) Once these (and other questions) have been answered we can start looking at a functional solution. Cheers, Martin -- _/_/ Peace Software New Zealand Ltd Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com _/ Martin Dickson Fax : +64-9-373-0401 Analyst Phone: +64-9-373-0400 -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Jun 30 14:29:09 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id OAA03687; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 14:26:55 +1200 Received: from mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (mailhost.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.1.4]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id OAA03682 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 14:26:49 +1200 Received: from sci4 (lbr-122-42.lbrsc.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.122.42]) by mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (8.9.2/8.9.2/8.9.2-ua) with SMTP id OAA00013 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 14:26:16 +1200 (NZST) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 14:25:05 +1200 Message-ID: <000301bfe23a$6710fb90$2a7ad882@sci4> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Subject: Meeting? From: "Michael Parkinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Dear All, Are we having a gods Meeting on Sunday (2/7/00) -- or do I get to polish the Returned Wyrm scenario in peace? No agenda has been posted. I believe the only things which are almost proposable are [quick] changes to: *Lesser Efreeti (banishable) *Dragonflames (wardable) please advise ASAP, Michael -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Jun 30 15:13:51 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id PAA03925; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 15:04:19 +1200 Received: from fclaklmr02.fcl.co.nz ([202.14.23.202] (may be forged)) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id PAA03922 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 15:04:13 +1200 Received: from falaklex00.falum.co.nz (10.8.1.28) by fclaklmr02.fcl.co.nz Friday, June 30, 2000 14:59:53 Message-ID: Received: by falaklex00.fcl.co.nz with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 15:03:02 +1200 Message-ID: <311B3C3DD32FD311B33900805F770A720226137C@falaklex00.fcl.co.nz> Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 15:02:52 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01BFE23F.B3FF90A0" Subject: RE: Meeting? From: "Andrew Withy (FAL AKL)" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01BFE23F.B3FF90A0 Content-Type: text/plain Without an agenda or burning issues we are unlikely to get a quorum. GM problems tend to surface in teh second GM's meeting of the quarter, and the third often has people coming along because they are running something next session. This is the quietest metting - lets cancel it this time Andrew > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael Parkinson [SMTP:m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz] > Sent: Friday, June 30, 2000 2:25 PM > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Subject: Meeting? > Importance: High > > Dear All, > > Are we having a gods Meeting on Sunday (2/7/00) -- or do I get to polish > the Returned Wyrm scenario in peace? > > No agenda has been posted. I believe the only things which are almost > proposable are [quick] changes to: > > *Lesser Efreeti (banishable) > *Dragonflames (wardable) > > please advise ASAP, Michael > > > > -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- ------_=_NextPart_001_01BFE23F.B3FF90A0 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Meeting?

Without an agenda or = burning issues we are unlikely to get a quorum. GM problems tend to = surface in teh second GM's meeting of the quarter, and the third often = has people coming along because they are running something next = session. This is the quietest metting - lets cancel it this = time

Andrew

    -----Original Message-----
    From:   Michael Parkinson = [SMTP:m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz]
    Sent:   Friday, June 30, 2000 2:25 PM
    To:     dq@dq.sf.org.nz
    Subject:       = Meeting?
    Importance:     High

    Dear All,

    Are we having  a gods Meeting on = Sunday (2/7/00) -- or do I get to polish
    the Returned Wyrm scenario in = peace?

    No agenda has been posted.  I = believe the only things which are almost
    proposable are [quick] changes = to:

    *Lesser Efreeti (banishable)
    *Dragonflames (wardable)

    please advise ASAP, Michael



    -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html = --

------_=_NextPart_001_01BFE23F.B3FF90A0-- -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Jun 30 16:29:04 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id QAA04648; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 16:16:56 +1200 Received: from defacto.peace.co.nz (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id QAA04645 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 16:16:52 +1200 Message-ID: <395C1A84.E1497D45@peace.com> Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 15:56:52 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Skill Structure [nothing at all to do with Astrology] From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > "Andrew Withy (FAL AKL)" wrote: > > Talking of coloured blocks, how high can you stack your coloured blocks? Can you get as many blue blocks in a multi-colour stack as you can in a purely blue stack, albeit more slowly, or should a blue tower br inherently capable of holding more blue blocks (within human limits, of course). Ahhh... now we get into the nitty gritty of game design. :) > To use the conveniently provided example, in the time that many people would have 4 of each of many (?7?) types of blocks, someone has built a tower of 8 jade blocks, with 4 blocks of each of two other colours. Yes. I was mistaken initially (or at least phrased it sub-optimally) in suggesting that rainbow blocks were involoved. It would be more accurate to say that in certain cases you get several blocks each of a different colour each rank... so they're really rainbow skills rather than rainbow blocks. Thief and Astologer are good examples of this. Each skill has a number of specific abilities (colours) and each rank you progress equally in all (number of blocks), ending up with a stack made of an equal number of each applicable colour. Courtier, Troub, Mech let you pick a colour a rank (or similar), possibly giving you some initial starting blocks, and once more as you progress in ranks you get more blocks of every appropriate colour. Troub and Courtier have the added ability to take 2 blocks of a colour you already have, rather than 1 of a new colour, but there is a loss too, since when a new colour is picked you don't actually get only 1 block, but rather a number equal to the total picks so far + 1. (That is to say, the new ability is not practised at rank 0/1 but att he rank of the skill as a whole). In the case you mention Andrew, if there are three starting picks then generalization (only taking new colours) will result after 4 more picks in a total of 35 blocks (7 colours x 5 -- DQ having the odd effect of counting from 0). Only picking the same colour again (as Jade has), results in 19 blocks (9 + (5 x 2)), which is not (as Jim has said), as much bang for your buck. > Why should they be limited to 10 jade blocks ever? Arbitary (and because in DQ ability above 10 may be harder to determine). This however, also creates a pressure against specialisation. The specialist will hit the top faster than the generalist (who will get there in the end, and with far more blocks alltogether). > Why do the number of other supporting blocks need to increase whenever more jade blocks are added? Would it be easier to just stack more jade blocks, or would the tower become unstable if other colours weren't added? This would make an inheretly more detailed and complex (and probably complicated) system. It would also make the concept of Rank generally redundant as it would describe the total qty of blocks in a PCs hand, but not the height of any part. > Would the cost be reduced if only certain colours were added, or if certain colours were forever banned from the tower? Banned is an interesting idea. > Hey Martin, the coloured block metaphor is quite flexible. Supply-chain solutions become sensible ranking business for specialists in certain professions. Well... actually I thought it was just my Lego obsession showing. Cheers, Martin -- _/_/ Peace Software New Zealand Ltd Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com _/ Martin Dickson Fax : +64-9-373-0401 Analyst Phone: +64-9-373-0400 -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Jun 30 20:43:45 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id UAA06135; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 20:38:30 +1200 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id UAA06132 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 20:38:27 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p183-tnt2.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.245.183]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id UAA14876 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 20:37:49 +1200 Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 20:30:16 +1200 Message-ID: <01bfe26d$6b2717e0$b7f56dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Astrologer is stuffed From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Martin Dickson wrote, innocently: >The "Sleeping Beauty" effect. Evil fairy says: "When she is 16 she will prick >her finger in a spindle and DIE!". Good fairy says: "Well, I can't get rid of >it, but I can modify it... She will not actually die, but will fall into a >slumber almost indistinguishable from death until...", etc. > >Being able to re-interpret and thus modify dooms, fates, etc, does sound well >within the purvey of Astrologers, and a desirable ability. > >I'm just not sure how much the PCs would be able to control it -- as a GM I >wouldn't want to see this as an easy way of removing a well earned doom, >although it would be reasonable for an Astrologer to perhaps be able to provide >information on how the doom could be ameliorated or lifted. > Reckon. What about letting the player sue the DM to moderate the effects of a doom (only dooms, I think)? The DM can make such die roll modifications that DMs are trained to understand, but that players are for ever denied the opportunity of fully understanding until they recieve the bounty of such enligtenment. If the DM thinks the moderation of the doom is kind of cool, then they can give it a whopping great modifier. If they think it's just a stinking great pile of dodo vomit, they can rule that it doesn't work. Alternatively, it could be that the Astrologer might attempt to find a way to lift the doom...Again, the DM is left with an adventure thread, instead of a die roll to look at. Jim -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Jun 30 20:44:21 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id UAA06069; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 20:28:41 +1200 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id UAA06066 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 20:28:37 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p183-tnt2.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.245.183]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id UAA14360 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 20:27:58 +1200 Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 20:20:25 +1200 Message-ID: <01bfe26c$0afd9700$b7f56dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Skill Structure [nothing at all to do with Astrology] From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Martin Dickson wrote: >Your comments on specialization (in response to Stephen) got me thinking again >about other generic ways that we might approach skill structures in DQ other >than simply either making them broad or making them narrow. This was not >intended as a discussion of Astrologer, hence the change of subject line away >from Astrology, and the abstract use of "blocks" rather than actual skill >specifics. > And a few other things, too. I won't go into them, but I'll just deal with the issue that they generally raise. I'm not saying that we shouldn't work on some, if you like to use the term, end-user format. What I am saying is that at this stage, dealing with that issue, when the method of what the skill will actually do is counterproductive, because form often defines the limit of the function. For example, if the skill that is resolved doesn't fit the format that every one likes, then the work is wasted, or worse, the work is forced into an unnatural construction to satisfy the concerns of everyone that worked on it. I am recalled of the nature of the design and construction of the space shuttle, which had to have a part from every state, to satisfy congressional politicians, even when there was no need for an extra part. Let us, for the nonce, eschew the matter, until we have something to occupy our attention in that regard. >Agreed. In the meantime I will happily discuss blue and green skill blocks with >whomever feels interested. Those of you expecting this to provide specific >answers to Astrologer, listen to Jim. Nothing to see here, move along, move >along. That kind of innocence reeks of cunning, duplicity, and trenchant deviousness...Ah, well... :-) Jim -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Jun 30 20:58:33 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id UAA06181; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 20:43:36 +1200 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id UAA06177 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 20:43:32 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p183-tnt2.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.245.183]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id UAA15153 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 20:42:54 +1200 Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 20:35:21 +1200 Message-ID: <01bfe26e$21032f40$b7f56dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0026_01BFE2D2.B6380F40" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Skill Structure [nothing at all to do with Astrology] From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01BFE2D2.B6380F40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 =20 Talking of coloured blocks, how high can you stack your coloured = blocks? Can you get as many blue blocks in a multi-colour stack as you = can in a purely blue stack, albeit more slowly, or should a blue tower = br inherently capable of holding more blue blocks (within human limits, = of course). =20 To use the conveniently provided example, in the time that many = people would have 4 of each of many (?7?) types of blocks, someone has = built a tower of 8 jade blocks, with 4 blocks of each of two other = colours. Why should they be limited to 10 jade blocks ever? Why do the = number of other supporting blocks need to increase whenever more jade = blocks are added? Would it be easier to just stack more jade blocks, or = would the tower become unstable if other colours weren't added? If we = don't want everyone to use the same mix of blocks at each height of the = tower, why do we limit specialisation? Should people be able to just buy = jade blocks without any other sort of blocks, or should there be a = minimum colour mix ratio? Would the cost be reduced if only certain = colours were added, or if certain colours were forever banned from the = tower? Can people build a series of low-rise dwellings with the same = blocks that they could have built their tower with, and if so, is it as = "cost-efficient" or should we not worry about efficiency when freedom of = expression is now available? =20 =20 =20 So...How much do these blocks cost, where do you get them, and how = do you ingest them? =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01BFE2D2.B6380F40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Skill Structure [nothing at all to = do with Astrology]
<AndrewW@falum.co.nz>

&n= bsp;

Talking of coloured = blocks, how=20 high can you stack your coloured blocks? Can you get as many blue = blocks in=20 a multi-colour stack as you can in a purely blue stack, albeit more = slowly,=20 or should a blue tower br inherently capable of holding more blue = blocks=20 (within human limits, of course).

To use the = conveniently provided=20 example, in the time that many people would have 4 of each of many = (?7?)=20 types of blocks, someone has built a tower of 8 jade blocks, with 4 = blocks=20 of each of two other colours. Why should they be limited to 10 jade = blocks=20 ever? Why do the number of other supporting blocks need to increase = whenever=20 more jade blocks are added? Would it be easier to just stack more = jade=20 blocks, or would the tower become unstable if other colours weren't = added?=20 If we don't want everyone to use the same mix of blocks at each = height of=20 the tower, why do we limit specialisation? Should people be able to = just buy=20 jade blocks without any other sort of blocks, or should there be a = minimum=20 colour mix ratio? Would the cost be reduced if only certain colours = were=20 added, or if certain colours were forever banned from the tower? Can = people=20 build a series of low-rise dwellings with the same blocks that they = could=20 have built their tower with, and if so, is it as = "cost-efficient"=20 or should we not worry about efficiency when freedom of expression = is now=20 available?

 

So...How much do these blocks = cost, where do=20 you get them, and how do you ingest = them?

------=_NextPart_000_0026_01BFE2D2.B6380F40-- -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sat Jul 1 10:43:32 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id KAA10767; Sat, 1 Jul 2000 10:38:39 +1200 Received: from mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (mailhost.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.1.4]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id KAA10764 for ; Sat, 1 Jul 2000 10:38:35 +1200 Received: from sci4 (lbr-122-42.lbrsc.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.122.42]) by mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (8.9.2/8.9.2/8.9.2-ua) with SMTP id KAA14847 for ; Sat, 1 Jul 2000 10:37:38 +1200 (NZST) Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 10:36:25 +1200 Message-ID: <000001bfe2e3$a0048e90$2a7ad882@sci4> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Subject: Meeting tomorrow? From: "Michael Parkinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Sorry if this is a double posting -- but I didn't see the message on Friday: Are we having a gods Meeting on Sunday (2/7/00) No agenda has been posted. I believe the only things which are almost proposable are [quick] changes to: *Lesser Efreeti (banishable) *Dragonflames (wardable), regards, Michael -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sat Jul 1 12:58:37 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id MAA11535; Sat, 1 Jul 2000 12:56:49 +1200 Received: from smtp4.ihug.co.nz (smtp4.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.5]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id MAA11532 for ; Sat, 1 Jul 2000 12:56:45 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p142-tnt6.akl.ihug.co.nz [216.100.154.142]) by smtp4.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id MAA03242 for ; Sat, 1 Jul 2000 12:55:43 +1200 Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 12:47:58 +1200 Message-ID: <01bfe2f6$00ac7e80$8e9a64d8@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Meeting tomorrow? From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz >Are we having a gods Meeting on Sunday (2/7/00) >No agenda has been posted. Andrew Withy suggested that we cancel. The things that were discussed so far are: >*Lesser Efreeti (banishable) >*Dragonflames (wardable), And, the degree to which Astrology was stuffed, and what might be done about it. I would say that the meeting could happily roll over to next month. But, in general, I would like to proprose a change to the general format of the meeting, and it is this: We should take some time do talk about actually running games, not just about the campaign or the rules. It is the area of DMing that we talk about the least amongst ourselves, and it is the thing that we ought to talk about the most. There seems little point in raising it for the current meeting. I don't know if anyone else has anything that they want to talk about, but I certainly don't, really. Although, I must say that I'm happy to chatter on about it, if they want. Let us make a change to the format of the meeting so that it allows us the address the art of DMing. But, let us do it next month. Jim -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sat Jul 1 18:43:42 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id SAA13627; Sat, 1 Jul 2000 18:29:13 +1200 Received: from smtp4.ihug.co.nz (smtp4.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.5]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id SAA13624 for ; Sat, 1 Jul 2000 18:29:09 +1200 Received: from work.ihug.co.nz (p14-max10.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.98.14]) by smtp4.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id SAA20222 for ; Sat, 1 Jul 2000 18:28:00 +1200 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.0.20000701181949.00b289b0@pop.ihug.co.nz> X-Sender: phaeton@pop.ihug.co.nz (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 18:24:44 +1200 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: No Gods meeting this Sunday (2 July) From: Keith Smith To: dq-announce@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq-announce@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Looks like their is no meeting this Sunday at Mikes. Mike isn't receiving dq e-mail at the moment, which I need to check up on, so, if anyone needs to contact him, please ring 3570725. Keith (phaeton@ihug.co.nz) -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Jul 3 09:29:02 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id JAA27560; Mon, 3 Jul 2000 09:19:41 +1200 Received: from defacto.peace.co.nz (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id JAA27557 for ; Mon, 3 Jul 2000 09:19:37 +1200 Message-ID: <395FB16C.D195B77E@peace.com> Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 09:17:32 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Skill Structure [nothing at all to do with Astrology] From: Michael Woodhams To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: michael.woodhams@peace.com Martin Dickson wrote: > > Hey Martin, the coloured block metaphor is quite flexible. Supply-chain solutions become sensible ranking business for specialists in certain professions. > > Well... actually I thought it was just my Lego obsession showing. > I bought some computer controlled Lego last week. Michael. -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Jul 3 09:44:14 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id JAA27629; Mon, 3 Jul 2000 09:29:10 +1200 Received: from defacto.peace.co.nz (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id JAA27625 for ; Mon, 3 Jul 2000 09:29:07 +1200 Message-ID: <395FAF20.9448C4F5@peace.com> Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 09:07:44 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Skill Structure [nothing at all to do with Astrology] From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Jim Arona wrote: > So...How much do these blocks cost, where do you get them, > and how do you ingest them? > Hey... you might be on to something here. Character creation using liquorice allsorts.... colours to indicate types of ability, quantity to represent skill level.... Pros: Character power/level is obvious at a glance. GMs have more fun playing vampires Cons: GMs on sugar highs may be more whimsical PCs may be mistaken for snack-food during games. Characters become sticky in hot weather. -- _/_/ Peace Software New Zealand Ltd Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com _/ Martin Dickson Fax : +64-9-373-0401 Analyst Phone: +64-9-373-0400 -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Jul 3 09:45:19 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id JAA27693; Mon, 3 Jul 2000 09:35:18 +1200 Received: from defacto.peace.co.nz (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id JAA27690 for ; Mon, 3 Jul 2000 09:35:15 +1200 Message-ID: <395FB517.B2D1A0E1@peace.com> Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 09:33:11 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Skill Structure [nothing at all to do with Astrology] From: Michael Woodhams To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Michael Woodhams wrote: > Martin Dickson wrote: > > > > Hey Martin, the coloured block metaphor is quite flexible. Supply-chain solutions become sensible ranking business for specialists in certain professions. > > > > Well... actually I thought it was just my Lego obsession showing. > > > > I bought some computer controlled Lego last week. > > Michael. > > -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- Sorry, that was supposed to go only to Martin. I have many times accidentally sent stuff to the DQ list by hitting 'reply', and normally I ignore it rather than add still more noise with an apology. This is a particularly off-topic example however. Sorry also for all the other times I've sent a reply of marginal value because I thought it was only going to one person. Michael W. -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Jul 3 17:59:05 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id RAA30959; Mon, 3 Jul 2000 17:49:21 +1200 Received: from smtp4.ihug.co.nz (smtp4.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.5]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id RAA30956 for ; Mon, 3 Jul 2000 17:49:18 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p213-tnt1.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.111.213]) by smtp4.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id RAA23943 for ; Mon, 3 Jul 2000 17:47:00 +1200 Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 17:39:00 +1200 Message-ID: <01bfe4b0$fdbd93a0$d56f12ce@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Astrologer From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz We should determine what we want the skill to do. In general, there are two major approaches to predictions: The seer sees clearly, but it is a potential future, and the viewer is unaware of what the exact preconditions are to produce the outcome. The seer sees in a way shrouded with ambiguity, riddles, and other kinds of DM derived deception. We can have both, I suppose, and allow the DM afflicted with an astrologer decide which kind of reading he wants to provide. Obviously, the one that provides the viewer with the vision takes less time to do in the middle of a game, whereas the riddle approach can take a while. On the other hand, the riddle approach provides players with a reference tool that they can take away. I prefer taking both versions, and letting the DM decide how they're going to be applied. I am not about to be instructed by a player to come up with a riddle that will make a profound kind of sense at the end of the game. About predicting days of good and ill omen, I don't object to it, so long as, again, it rests in the DMs hands, and is played for dramatic effect. I don't want to see it acting as a minor bonus or penalty to their chances across the board. I am playing in a game at the moment where 2 players have difficulty working out what there numbers are at the best of times. I know, you're only talking about a 1 or 2 point variation. The players I have in mind find dealing with a lesser enchantment difficult to deal with. That's a fairly static die roll modifier. Imagine what this ephemeral modifier would do. Do we want astrologers to be able to lift Dooms? At the moment, they cannot be removed, really. And, I like that it can't be removed by death, etc. On the other hand, I would like there to be some agency by which you could remove them, otherwise, some idiot out there is going to afflict a terrible doom on some poor bugger. Again, there are three paths. Astrologer allows you to determine what the character must do to remove the doom. Astrology may be used to alter the wording of the doom. Both. I like both. Now, the only real hassle is how to do write the wretched skill. Jim -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Jul 4 09:28:56 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id JAA03772; Tue, 4 Jul 2000 09:20:59 +1200 Received: from defacto.peace.co.nz (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id JAA03769 for ; Tue, 4 Jul 2000 09:20:54 +1200 Message-ID: <3960FE85.106601B3@peace.com> Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 08:58:45 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Astrologer From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Jim Arona wrote: > About predicting days of good and ill omen, I don't object to it, so > long as, again, it rests in the DMs hands, and is played for dramatic effect. > I don't want to see it acting as a minor bonus or penalty to their chances > across the board. Perhaps narrative in nature? That is to say, an Astrologer is the person you ask for the most auspicious date to begin a journey or the necessary date to perform some ritual, etc. One downside; this is an essentially passive ability -- the player askes the GM and the GM gives them a date... not terribly exciting to play. Is there perhaps a way of making the player "work" for the information? > Astrology may be used to alter the wording of the doom. This is not a time one wants a critical failure. :) -- _/_/ Peace Software New Zealand Ltd Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com _/ Martin Dickson Fax : +64-9-373-0401 Analyst Phone: +64-9-373-0400 -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Jul 4 09:43:43 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id JAA03884; Tue, 4 Jul 2000 09:39:33 +1200 Received: from akl-notes2.aj.co.nz (akl-notes.aj.co.nz [202.27.194.165]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id JAA03881 for ; Tue, 4 Jul 2000 09:39:29 +1200 Received: from akl-notes.aj.co.nz ([192.168.4.165]) by akl-notes2.aj.co.nz (Lotus Domino Release 5.0.3 (Intl)) with ESMTP id 2000070409413282:8061 ; Tue, 4 Jul 2000 09:41:32 +1200 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.3 (Intl) 21 March 2000 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 09:39:27 +1200 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on akl-notes.aj.co.nz/AJNzl/NZ(Release 5.0.3 (Intl)|21 March 2000) at 04/07/2000 09:39:28, Serialize complete at 04/07/2000 09:39:28, Itemize by SMTP Server on akl-notes2/AJNzl/NZ(Release 5.0.3 (Intl)|21 March 2000) at 04/07/2000 09:41:32, Serialize by Router on akl-notes2/AJNzl/NZ(Release 5.0.3 (Intl)|21 March 2000) at 04/07/2000 09:41:37, Serialize complete at 04/07/2000 09:41:37 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 00772313CC256911_=" Subject: Re: Astrologer From: Rosemary_Mansfield/AJNzl/NZ@AJ.CO.NZ To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 00772313CC256911_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" So they combine the two abilities: a) pick the most auspicious day to attempt to change the doom b) make the attempt Rosemary Martin Dickson Sent by: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz 04/07/2000 08:58 Please respond to dq To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz cc: Subject: Re: Astrologer Jim Arona wrote: > About predicting days of good and ill omen, I don't object to it, so > long as, again, it rests in the DMs hands, and is played for dramatic effect. > I don't want to see it acting as a minor bonus or penalty to their chances > across the board. Perhaps narrative in nature? That is to say, an Astrologer is the person you ask for the most auspicious date to begin a journey or the necessary date to perform some ritual, etc. One downside; this is an essentially passive ability -- the player askes the GM and the GM gives them a date... not terribly exciting to play. Is there perhaps a way of making the player "work" for the information? > Astrology may be used to alter the wording of the doom. This is not a time one wants a critical failure. :) -- _/_/ Peace Software New Zealand Ltd Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com _/ Martin Dickson Fax : +64-9-373-0401 Analyst Phone: +64-9-373-0400 -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- --=_alternative 00772313CC256911_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
So they combine the two abilities:
a) pick the most auspicious day to attempt to change the doom
b) make the attempt

Rosemary



Martin Dickson <martin.dickson@peace.com>
Sent by: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz

04/07/2000 08:58
Please respond to dq

       
        To:        dq@dq.sf.org.nz
        cc:        
        Subject:        Re: Astrologer


Jim Arona wrote:

>        About predicting days of good and ill omen, I don't object to it, so
> long as, again, it rests in the DMs hands, and is played for dramatic effect.
> I don't want to see it acting as a minor bonus or penalty to their chances
> across the board.

Perhaps narrative in nature?  That is to say, an Astrologer is the person you
ask for the most auspicious date to begin a journey or the necessary date to
perform some ritual, etc.

One downside; this is an essentially passive ability -- the player askes the GM
and the GM gives them a date... not terribly exciting to play.  Is there perhaps
a way of making the player "work" for the information?


>       Astrology may be used to alter the wording of the doom.

This is not a time one wants a critical failure.  :)

--

_/_/  Peace Software New Zealand Ltd   Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com
_/     Martin Dickson                   Fax  : +64-9-373-0401
      Analyst                          Phone: +64-9-373-0400




-- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html --

--=_alternative 00772313CC256911_=-- -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Jul 4 10:28:32 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id KAA04098; Tue, 4 Jul 2000 10:14:12 +1200 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (smtp2.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.8]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id KAA04095 for ; Tue, 4 Jul 2000 10:14:09 +1200 Received: from work.ihug.co.nz (p171-tnt5.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.194.171]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id KAA02574 for ; Tue, 4 Jul 2000 10:11:29 +1200 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.0.20000704100623.00b29300@pop.ihug.co.nz> X-Sender: phaeton@pop.ihug.co.nz X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 10:06:59 +1200 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: Test message - Mike P, please reply if you get this. From: Keith Smith To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Test2 -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Jul 4 18:43:32 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id SAA07644; Tue, 4 Jul 2000 18:36:17 +1200 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (smtp2.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.8]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id SAA07641 for ; Tue, 4 Jul 2000 18:36:13 +1200 Received: from ihug.co.nz (p428-tnt4.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.104.174]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id SAA28033 for ; Tue, 4 Jul 2000 18:33:23 +1200 Message-ID: <3961861D.B62B34BD@ihug.co.nz> Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 18:37:17 +1200 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Fire College conversion From: scott whitaker To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Can Fire mages change college and respend tehir xp and time due to the major changes in the college? There have been significant changes and I feel allowing this would be reasonable. I would not have created a fire mege under the new rules. scott Whitaker -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Jul 4 18:58:33 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id SAA07755; Tue, 4 Jul 2000 18:54:20 +1200 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (smtp2.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.8]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id SAA07752 for ; Tue, 4 Jul 2000 18:54:17 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p259-tnt2.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.255.5]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id SAA29440 for ; Tue, 4 Jul 2000 18:51:26 +1200 Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 18:43:22 +1200 Message-ID: <01bfe583$263be840$05ff6dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Fire College conversion From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz >Can Fire mages change college and respend tehir xp >and time due to the major changes in the college? > >There have been significant changes and I feel >allowing this would be reasonable. > >I would not have created a fire mege under the new >rules. Why is your character a fire mage, then? There hasn't been substantial change to the college. If anything, it has got wider. What is the nature of your character that you feel the need to change college? -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jul 5 14:28:38 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id OAA14702; Wed, 5 Jul 2000 14:19:25 +1200 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id OAA14699 for ; Wed, 5 Jul 2000 14:19:20 +1200 Received: from work.ihug.co.nz (p92-tnt7.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.203.92]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id OAA29204 for ; Wed, 5 Jul 2000 14:16:02 +1200 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.0.20000705141020.00abf600@pop.ihug.co.nz> X-Sender: phaeton@pop.ihug.co.nz (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 14:11:53 +1200 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: Guild meeting awards From: Keith Smith To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Can anyone remember what are the current prizes given out for the awards at each Guild meeting. I'm wanting to make up the certificates but I can't remember what to put on them. Thanks, Keith (phaeton@ihug.co.nz) -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jul 5 15:59:13 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id PAA15430; Wed, 5 Jul 2000 15:54:09 +1200 Received: from fclaklmr02.fcl.co.nz ([202.14.23.202] (may be forged)) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with SMTP id PAA15427 for ; Wed, 5 Jul 2000 15:54:03 +1200 Received: from falaklex00.falum.co.nz (10.8.1.28) by fclaklmr02.fcl.co.nz Wednesday, July 05, 2000 15:46:59 Message-ID: Received: by falaklex00.fcl.co.nz with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Wed, 5 Jul 2000 15:50:07 +1200 Message-ID: <311B3C3DD32FD311B33900805F770A7202261396@falaklex00.fcl.co.nz> Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 15:50:05 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01BFE634.1BE02960" Subject: RE: Guild meeting awards From: "Andrew Withy (FAL AKL)" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01BFE634.1BE02960 Content-Type: text/plain guild services to the value of 1,000sp. > -----Original Message----- > From: Keith Smith [SMTP:phaeton@ihug.co.nz] > Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2000 2:12 PM > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Subject: Guild meeting awards > > Can anyone remember what are the current prizes given out for the awards > at > each Guild meeting. I'm wanting to make up the certificates but I can't > remember what to put on them. > > Thanks, > > Keith > (phaeton@ihug.co.nz) > > > > -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- ------_=_NextPart_001_01BFE634.1BE02960 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Guild meeting awards

guild services to = the value of 1,000sp.

    -----Original Message-----
    From:   Keith Smith [SMTP:phaeton@ihug.co.nz]
    Sent:   Wednesday, July 05, 2000 2:12 PM
    To:     dq@dq.sf.org.nz
    Subject:       = Guild meeting awards

    Can anyone remember what are the = current prizes given out for the awards at
    each Guild meeting. I'm wanting to = make up the certificates but I can't
    remember what to put on them.

    Thanks,

    Keith
    (phaeton@ihug.co.nz)



    -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html = --

------_=_NextPart_001_01BFE634.1BE02960-- -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jul 5 16:58:47 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) id QAA15844; Wed, 5 Jul 2000 16:57:07 +1200 Received: from smtp4.ihug.co.nz (smtp4.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.5]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-19980830) with ESMTP id QAA15841 for ; Wed, 5 Jul 2000 16:57:03 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p162-tnt8.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.138.162]) by smtp4.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id QAA21473 for ; Wed, 5 Jul 2000 16:53:41 +1200 Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 16:45:20 +1200 Message-ID: <01bfe63b$d339c220$a28a6dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000E_01BFE6A0.686EA220" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Scribe notes From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01BFE6A0.686EA220 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hey, who looks after Scribe Notes from adventures, these days? I'm under = the impression that someone is doing it, but I can't think who that = person is. Jim ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01BFE6A0.686EA220 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Guild meeting = awards
Hey, who looks after Scribe Notes = from=20 adventures, these days? I'm under the impression that someone is doing = it, but I=20 can't think who that person is.
Jim
------=_NextPart_000_000E_01BFE6A0.686EA220-- -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Jul 6 17:51:06 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id RAA27757; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 17:37:00 +1200 Received: from kakapo.cs.auckland.ac.nz (kakapo.cs.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.34.10]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id RAA27754 for ; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 17:36:57 +1200 Received: from [130.216.108.110] (clare.cs.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.108.110]) by kakapo.cs.auckland.ac.nz (8.8.6/8.8.6/cs-master) with ESMTP id RAA09928 for ; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 17:33:02 +1200 (NZST) (sender clare@cs.auckland.ac.nz) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: clare@staffpop.cs.auckland.ac.nz Message-Id: Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 17:33:16 +1200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Subject: light and darkness From: clare@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Clare West) To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz I was pondering light and darkness the other day, especially with respect to Celestial mages. Currently the ruling is that the spells Light and Darkness cannot create *beneficial* lighting conditions. However, Solar and Dark Mages get their best bonuses in 100% light/darkness. A condition that according to the table is described as "Magical Effect - no vision works". What magical effect? Most people would say "Rank 20 light/darkness". So do light and darkness not provide beneficial effect until you get to Rank 20, and then suddenly they provide +/- 25%? Or is this something that slipped through the cracks when Light and Darkness were modified? or what? clare (who no longer plays a Dark Mage btw) -- Clare West, Rm 111, Ext 8266 clare@cs.auckland.ac.nz -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Jul 7 13:21:08 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id NAA01894; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 13:06:38 +1200 Received: from smtp4.ihug.co.nz (smtp4.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.5]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id NAA01891 for ; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 13:06:32 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p238-tnt6.akl.ihug.co.nz [216.100.154.238]) by smtp4.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id NAA20078 for ; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 13:02:04 +1200 Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 12:53:32 +1200 Message-ID: <01bfe7ad$c6861e20$ee9a64d8@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re:Adam Tennant From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Does anyone know Adam Tennant's email address? jimarona@ihug.co.nz -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Jul 7 17:46:25 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id RAA03956; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 17:42:24 +1200 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (smtp2.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.8]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id RAA03953 for ; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 17:42:20 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p217-tnt2.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.245.217]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id RAA24941 for ; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 17:37:51 +1200 Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 17:29:24 +1200 Message-ID: <01bfe7d4$501994c0$LocalHost@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: God's Meeting From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Jono spoke to me today, and seeing as he'd been away for a while, he was under the impression that the God's Meeting had been postponed until this weekend...That is not my understanding, but then, what do I know...So, what is happening this Sunday? Is there going to be a God's Meeting? -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Jul 7 19:00:47 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id SAA04401; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 18:53:00 +1200 Received: from fclaklmr02.fcl.co.nz ([202.14.23.202] (may be forged)) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with SMTP id SAA04398 for ; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 18:52:53 +1200 Received: from falaklex00.falum.co.nz (10.8.1.28) by fclaklmr02.fcl.co.nz Friday, July 07, 2000 18:44:35 Message-ID: Received: by falaklex00.fcl.co.nz with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 18:47:42 +1200 Message-ID: <311B3C3DD32FD311B33900805F770A72022613C4@falaklex00.fcl.co.nz> Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 18:47:41 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01BFE7DF.3F7A7960" Subject: RE: God's Meeting From: "Andrew Withy (FAL AKL)" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01BFE7DF.3F7A7960 Content-Type: text/plain Er... no. "No business, so cancelled", not "busy so postponed". Andrew > -----Original Message----- > From: Jim Arona [SMTP:jimarona@ihug.co.nz] > Sent: Friday, July 07, 2000 5:29 PM > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Subject: Re: God's Meeting > > Jono spoke to me today, and seeing as he'd been away for a while, he was > under the impression that the God's Meeting had been postponed until this > weekend...That is not my understanding, but then, what do I know...So, > what > is happening this Sunday? Is there going to be a God's Meeting? > > > > > -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- ------_=_NextPart_001_01BFE7DF.3F7A7960 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: God's Meeting

Er... no. "No = business, so cancelled", not "busy so postponed".

Andrew

    -----Original Message-----
    From:   Jim Arona [SMTP:jimarona@ihug.co.nz]
    Sent:   Friday, July 07, 2000 5:29 PM
    To:     dq@dq.sf.org.nz
    Subject:       = Re: God's Meeting

    Jono spoke to me today, and seeing as = he'd been away for a while, he was
    under the impression that the God's = Meeting had been postponed until this
    weekend...That is not my = understanding, but then, what do I know...So, what
    is happening this Sunday? Is there = going to be a God's Meeting?




    -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html = --

------_=_NextPart_001_01BFE7DF.3F7A7960-- -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sat Jul 8 17:15:46 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id RAA12127; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 17:06:29 +1200 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id RAA12124 for ; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 17:06:26 +1200 Received: from work.ihug.co.nz (p40-max10.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.98.40]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id RAA13973 for ; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 17:01:22 +1200 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.0.20000708164515.00aa4d50@pop.ihug.co.nz> X-Sender: flamis@pop.ihug.co.nz X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 16:49:44 +1200 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: Low Level Adventure Starting From: Jacqui Smith To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz For anyone interested, I will be starting my low level overflow adventure on Monday evening, 6:30-7:00pm start, at our address, which is 38 Tarata Cres, Mangere Bridge. I have three, maybe four players, but could use a couple more. The employer will be T'ana Silverwind, Editor of the Seagate Times. It seems that one of her reporters is missing... Jacqui Smith -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sat Jul 8 17:30:46 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id RAA12288; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 17:26:55 +1200 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (smtp2.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.8]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id RAA12285 for ; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 17:26:52 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p175-tnt6.akl.ihug.co.nz [216.100.154.175]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id RAA23406 for ; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 17:21:49 +1200 Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 17:21:00 +1200 Message-ID: <01bfe89c$4dfafda0$af9a64d8@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Low Level Adventure Starting From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz So...The prospective adventurers who would be looking for this character would need to be illiterate? -----Original Message----- From: Jacqui Smith To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Date: Saturday, 8 July 2000 17:11 Subject: Low Level Adventure Starting >For anyone interested, I will be starting my low level overflow adventure >on Monday evening, 6:30-7:00pm start, at our address, which is 38 Tarata >Cres, Mangere Bridge. > >I have three, maybe four players, but could use a couple more. > >The employer will be T'ana Silverwind, Editor of the Seagate Times. It >seems that one of her reporters is missing... > >Jacqui Smith > > > >-- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- > -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Jul 11 10:16:01 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id KAA02935; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 10:03:35 +1200 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (smtp2.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.8]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id KAA02932 for ; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 10:03:30 +1200 Received: from work.ihug.co.nz (p208-tnt7.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.203.208]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id JAA21618 for ; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 09:56:55 +1200 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.0.20000711095024.00b1a740@pop.ihug.co.nz> X-Sender: flamis@pop.ihug.co.nz X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 09:53:37 +1200 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: Re: Low Level Adventure Starting From: Jacqui Smith To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz >So...The prospective adventurers who would be looking for this character >would need to be illiterate? > > >For anyone interested, I will be starting my low level overflow adventure > >on Monday evening, 6:30-7:00pm start, at our address, which is 38 Tarata > >Cres, Mangere Bridge. > > > >I have three, maybe four players, but could use a couple more. > > > >The employer will be T'ana Silverwind, Editor of the Seagate Times. It > >seems that one of her reporters is missing... I have to announce that the adventure is now full. I have six players, including three new to DQ. And for Jim's benefit - all the characters appear to be literate. Jacqui Smith -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Jul 11 11:00:58 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id LAA03357; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 11:00:25 +1200 Received: from smtp4.ihug.co.nz (smtp4.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.5]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id LAA03352 for ; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 11:00:22 +1200 Received: from dworkin (p24-tnt7.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.203.24]) by smtp4.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id KAA11091 for ; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 10:53:47 +1200 Message-ID: <00cc01bfeac1$f37b6040$4301a8c0@dworkin.ihug.co.nz> Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 10:55:30 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: Re: Astrologer From: "Dworkin" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Martin wrote >Perhaps narrative in nature? That is to say, an Astrologer is the person you >ask for the most auspicious date to begin a journey or the necessary date to >perform some ritual, etc. > >One downside; this is an essentially passive ability -- the player askes the GM >and the GM gives them a date... not terribly exciting to play. Is there perhaps >a way of making the player "work" for the information? This is where you get into the whole 'eye of frimpt, toe of spinge' catergory. PC1: I can do an astrology reading but I need 5 spines from a lesser purple spotted agrohaha. Party: WHAT! If people want favourable readings then make them work for them. Of course the ingredients for a reading before rescuing a kitten will be more common and readily availiable than if you're out to protect the cosmological constant. But please not that dreaded gathering rule from herbalist. JIm and Martin wrote >> Astrology may be used to alter the wording of the doom. > >This is not a time one wants a critical failure. :) > Well, no. But the possibility that altering a doom may hideously backfire on the astrologer, the doomed one, onlookers, perfectly innocent planes, etc will prevent Astrologer from being a universal Doom panacea. There should be nothing ho-hum about being doomed. It should be a hideous and terrible thing and one should perform strange and bizzare labours to remove oneself of it. An Astrologer should ideally be able help in this endeavor by pointing out a less difficult method than say, wandering up to (insert nasty here) and giving it a kicking. William -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Jul 11 16:45:53 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id QAA05983; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 16:33:54 +1200 Received: from defacto.peace.co.nz (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id QAA05980 for ; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 16:33:50 +1200 Message-ID: <396A9D50.A4C20318@peace.com> Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 16:06:40 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Campaign Events From: Martin Dickson To: dq-pub@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq-pub@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq-pub@dq.sf.org.nz Preface: This is the first in a series of messages covering some events occurring this session. The specific intent of these messages is to keep players who are not playing this session -- and PCs who are at home -- up to date with certain happenings. If you are not playing (or have an interested PC at home), and would like to interact with these events in some way (or want extra information), I am happy to act as an e-GM for this. Please note: If you are playing this session then your GM's events and timelines automatically (and completely, etc.) over-ride any of this event information with respect to that character. Cheers, Martin -- Update #1. Duesday 1st - Moonday 15th of Frost : On the night of the 1st of Frost (the day of the guild meeting) an odd glow is visible on the Western horizon for a couple of hours after sunset. Over the next two weeks the same glow is sometimes similarly visible after sunset. On the night of the 15th (a full moon), several Seagate astrologers get signs of ill-omen. Given the current events with the Dark Circle however, few folk are surprised -- _/_/ Peace Software New Zealand Ltd Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com _/ Martin Dickson Fax : +64-9-373-0401 Analyst Phone: +64-9-373-0400 -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tue Jul 11 18:00:58 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id RAA06558; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 17:53:28 +1200 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (smtp2.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.8]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id RAA06555 for ; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 17:53:25 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p55-tnt6.akl.ihug.co.nz [216.100.154.55]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id RAA04539 for ; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 17:46:40 +1200 Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 17:45:23 +1200 Message-ID: <01bfeafb$34e6e020$379a64d8@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Low Level Adventure Starting From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz >> >I have three, maybe four players, but could use a couple more. >> > >> >The employer will be T'ana Silverwind, Editor of the Seagate Times. It >> >seems that one of her reporters is missing... > >I have to announce that the adventure is now full. I have six players, >including three new to DQ. > >And for Jim's benefit - all the characters appear to be literate. Yeah, but they're new, so they can't have read the rag...:-) -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jul 12 11:16:07 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id LAA12683; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 11:07:53 +1200 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (smtp2.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.8]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id LAA12680 for ; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 11:07:48 +1200 Received: from work.ihug.co.nz (p205-tnt5.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.194.205]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id LAA01366 for ; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 11:00:39 +1200 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.0.20000712105459.00aa8210@pop.ihug.co.nz> X-Sender: phaeton@pop.ihug.co.nz (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 10:56:34 +1200 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: Minutes - June 2000 From: Keith Smith To: dq-announce@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq-announce@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Below are the minutes from the June 2000 Gods meeting, at least what I have been able to interpret from William's notes. Please let me know if there are any corrections etc. Keith (phaeton@ihug.co.nz) Gods Meeting Minutes June 2000 Present: Rosemary, Paul, Andrew, Scott, Jason, Jim, Mike Parkinson, William, Stephen, Ian Player Conduct Jim said that the players should work to encourage involvement for all players at all times. There should be a clearer awareness of PC motives. Adventures going out Paul - Medium - Collecting objects d'art William - High - Recovering the fingernails Mandos - Medium Keith - Medium Ben - Low Andrew Gordon Lewis Rules Business 1) A unanimous vote of agreement was taken to ratify the new players handbook. 2) The initiative value of warrior was changed to +1 per rank. Carried unanomiusly. 3) Various changes to the Healer skill were passed such as regeneration time is now a week and rules were added for bodyswapping. 4) The revised cantrip document was passed, 8 for 1 against. 5) Weapon spell durations were all changed to 5 minutes + 1/rank. A motion to make the duration 30 minutes at Rank 20 was lost (5/2/3). The effect of a Rank 20 Weapon of Flame is to be made similar to a Rank 20 Weapon of Ice. Passed (7/3). 6) The new rulebook was ratified by a unanimous vote. Campaign Business - Riegars Keep was attacked by an undead army. This was repulsed at a great loss. Arms Ferry was also attacked twice. - The siege at Superstition Mountains has been lifted - Barbarians are being led by Ghenghis Khan who is working with Rashak. He can charm anyone with barbarian blood. - MMHS has had an outbreak of undead. An unknown monestary has interviened. - Blizkrieg's wife was captured and enslaved. She was rescued by a Guild party. The Church was ordered not to interviene for a while. - A portal tower now goes everywhere. Guild Business - A discussion ensured about keeping character records on the website - Jono offered to keep a magical archive for items - Rosemary to print and distribute the new rulebook. - It was felt that the rulebook should not be on the Web for copyright reasons. Any existing copies there should be removed. General Business A playtest is currently being done on opposition rolling. So far it has been found to make combats quicker, makes armour more important. Further testing is to be done next session. Meeting closed. -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Jul 13 22:13:43 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id WAA26133; Thu, 13 Jul 2000 22:06:10 +1200 Received: from smtp4.ihug.co.nz (smtp4.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.5]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id WAA26130 for ; Thu, 13 Jul 2000 22:06:06 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p431-tnt2.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.255.177]) by smtp4.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id VAA09770 for ; Thu, 13 Jul 2000 21:58:07 +1200 Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 21:56:28 +1200 Message-ID: <01bfecb0$9d8b1400$b1ff6dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Minutes - June 2000 From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz >Below are the minutes from the June 2000 Gods meeting, at least what I have >been able to interpret from William's notes. > >Player Conduct >Jim said that the players should work to encourage involvement for all >players at all times. There should be a clearer awareness of PC motives. The point of the discussion issue that I raised is really that, as DMs, we should be encouraging the kind of play that makes the event enjoyable for everyone. Insofar as we're running games to have fun, and that we expect other people to have fun as well, then it seems to me that we ought to be encouraging players to make sure that the other members of the party have a good time. If we were playing something like a social sport of some kind, then one would expect to the other players in that team to help contribute to the others well being. Instead, what often seems to happen is that some players don't do that at all. Instead, they are divisive, and happily exclude another player from the game. This can happen when a player is hors de combat, because their character is dead or otherwise incapacitated. This kind of thing is abominable. It is the worst kind of victimisation, because it doesn't even allow the affected party to respond. The arguments that I've heard justifying this kind of behaviour are things based on what a particular character would do. Which is to say that the behaviour of someone who is either not restoring another PC to activity, or who has chosen to render another PC inactive, is within the ambit of their character's personality. Without establishing something as a rule engraved in stone, this kind of justification should be nailed in a coffin, and given a good burial. There's room in a roleplaying game for any amount of inner conflict, and that's fine. But, where that conflict threatens to injure another player's enjoyment of the game, then the DM must stop it, or enforce serious penalties. There are several ways in which this might be done. Reducing xp awards by a huge amount is one, but pretty invisible, unless you actually tell the player why they lost xp big time. Inflicting some hideous curse upon the offending player, but again, that's pretty invisible, too, unless you tell the player that they were cursed because you, as the DM, didn't approve of that kind of behaviour. And, it strikes at suspension of disbelief. Finally, probably the best method is just to take the player aside and tell them that if they aren't going to play the game, then they can play in another game, with someone who is prepared to put up with that sort of behaviour. We have never really addressed this issue, or other issues of a like nature. The God's Meeting has usually concerned itself with campaign and rules issues, and while these may be important, they pale into insignificance against them. We can have a really screwed set of rules, and a pathetic campaign, but if we have a happy player body, then it doesn't really matter too much. -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Jul 14 09:13:40 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id JAA29721; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 09:08:29 +1200 Received: from defacto.peace.co.nz (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id JAA29718 for ; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 09:08:24 +1200 Message-ID: <396E28D7.88E9B803@peace.com> Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 08:38:47 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Minutes - June 2000 From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Jim Arona wrote: > Reducing xp awards by a huge amount is one, but pretty invisible, unless you > actually tell the player why they lost xp big time. Or we could restructure the way EP is calculated for everyone so that player enjoyment -- as opposed to strictly character portrayal -- is valued and recognised, and ensure that players know this. I think we have sometimes shied away form promoting good "gaming" in favour of what has been seen as promoting good "role-playing"... but it is exactly that inflexibility that leads to the sort of play you descibe and (IMHO) rightly deplore. Taking a player aside and explaining that their behaviour is unacceptable is the most direct approach, and may well be needed for excessive cases, but a reasonable long-term solution may be to create a pressure within the game structure towards the style of play that we do want to promote -- generally co-operative with an empathy for the enjoyment of other players. Cheers, Martin -- _/_/ Peace Software New Zealand Ltd Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com _/ Martin Dickson Fax : +64-9-373-0401 Analyst Phone: +64-9-373-0400 -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Jul 14 15:28:40 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id PAA32123; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 15:28:06 +1200 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (smtp2.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.8]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id PAA32119 for ; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 15:28:01 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p62-tnt2.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.245.62]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id PAA25572 for ; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 15:19:38 +1200 Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 15:17:47 +1200 Message-ID: <01bfed42$15c63940$3ef56dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Minutes - June 2000 From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz -----Original Message----- From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Date: Friday, 14 July 2000 09:06 Subject: Re: Minutes - June 2000 >Jim Arona wrote: > >> Reducing xp awards by a huge amount is one, but pretty invisible, unless you >> actually tell the player why they lost xp big time. > >Or we could restructure the way EP is calculated for everyone so that player >enjoyment -- as opposed to strictly character portrayal -- is valued and >recognised, and ensure that players know this. > The trouble is that most people won't be drawn on why they've awarded a particular amount of xp. In fact, most DMs award xp as a single lump at the end of the adventure, so it's pretty hard to say what the xp is for at all. >Taking a player aside and explaining that their behaviour is unacceptable is the >most direct approach, and may well be needed for excessive cases, but a >reasonable long-term solution may be to create a pressure within the game >structure towards the style of play that we do want to promote -- generally >co-operative with an empathy for the enjoyment of other players. Possibly. But, only if a player knows what they're getting xp for. And, I suppose, that raises the issue, generally. Xp awards should be obvious and clear to everyone. Jim -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Jul 17 12:58:39 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id MAA25545; Mon, 17 Jul 2000 12:53:38 +1200 Received: from defacto.peace.co.nz (fwuser@[202.14.141.233] (may be forged)) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id MAA25542 for ; Mon, 17 Jul 2000 12:53:34 +1200 Message-ID: <397251D6.F34B1047@peace.com> Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 12:22:46 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: EP awards [was Re: Minutes - June 2000] From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Jim Arona wrote: > The trouble is that most people won't be drawn on why they've awarded a > particular amount of xp. In fact, most DMs award xp as a single lump at the > end of the adventure, so it's pretty hard to say what the xp is for at all. > > >...a reasonable long-term solution may be to create a pressure within the > game > >structure towards the style of play that we do want to promote... > > Possibly. But, only if a player knows what they're getting xp for. And, I > suppose, that raises the issue, generally. Xp awards should be obvious and > clear to everyone. Most GMs may not wish to make individual EP awards public, but the method by which EP is calculated is public and published. We have said that X will be awarded for this and Y for that... and "this" and "that" create game pressures. If, (for the sake of discussion) we were to change the EP awards to be based _soley_ on NPCs/monsters slain and money gained, I think we could reasonably expect to see the quantity of carnage and rapine in the campaign increase. We would create a pressure against finding non-violent solutions to problems as these might gain the player a warm, fuzzy feeling, but would cause them to lose out on the only real currency in which we deal; Experience Points. If we make it known that co-operative play, and the overall enjoyment of the other players is a factor that we value highly, and that EP is awarded (at least in part) for this, then we can reasonably expect a pressure towards this style of play. Players who flout this style will be penalized, and as GM you always have the option of explaining why the EP award was what it was. Regards, Martin -- _/_/ Peace Software New Zealand Ltd Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com _/ Martin Dickson Fax : +64-9-373-0401 Analyst Phone: +64-9-373-0400 -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Jul 17 13:43:42 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id NAA25971; Mon, 17 Jul 2000 13:37:08 +1200 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id NAA25968 for ; Mon, 17 Jul 2000 13:37:04 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p234-tnt6.akl.ihug.co.nz [216.100.154.234]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id NAA24120 for ; Mon, 17 Jul 2000 13:26:56 +1200 Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 13:24:29 +1200 Message-ID: <01bfef8d$c0fa0060$ea9a64d8@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: EP awards [was Re: Minutes - June 2000] From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Martin Dickson wrote: >Most GMs may not wish to make individual EP awards public, but the method by >which EP is calculated is public and published. It's irrelevant what most DMs want. The point is that it is better to make it public. It is an award for certain kinds of performance. XPs are not some illicit drug to be wrapped up in a bit of plain paper and surreptitiously slipped to the player. It is about what the player has done to achieve the award. If you don't tell the player what they have been awarded, and why, then you are abrogating your responsibility as a DM. Which is to say that we are trying to encourage better play, and a better game. Making the award secret means that a player has no scale to judge their ability against. How can a player know whether or not they are doing well, if they can't compare? The only thing that not awarding publicly does is mean that a DM never has to justify their awards. Never has to defend them, if they're called into question, and never has to think about how they're going to award it, because in the end, all they have to do is give the player a number. > We have said that X will be >awarded for this and Y for that... and "this" and "that" create game pressures. Again, this is pretty irrelevant, if it's not 'seen to be done'. If the only thing that happens is that there is a vague general principle that we will be reducing xp for y behaviour, or increasing it for z, then you're depending on the players not to ask too many questions about how their xp was organised. > >If, (for the sake of discussion) we were to change the EP awards to be based >_soley_ on NPCs/monsters slain and money gained, I think we could reasonably >expect to see the quantity of carnage and rapine in the campaign increase. ...Well, again, this is kind of irrelevant to the point, as well...I mean, assigning xp on the basis of monsters overcome is a pretty pathetic way of conducting the excercise. The only good thing about it is that it gives you a benchmark of the xp range to be awarding, given the danger level, I suppose. >If we make it known that co-operative play, and the overall enjoyment of the >other players is a factor that we value highly, and that EP is awarded (at least >in part) for this, then we can reasonably expect a pressure towards this style >of play. Players who flout this style will be penalized, and as GM you always >have the option of explaining why the EP award was what it was. The point is, that unless a DM is prepared to award publicly, then the whole process is undermined. I've played this game for some time, now, and I have to say that the usual practice is to award xp in a kind of lump, with only a general kind of idea as to why it's awarded. Frankly, I don't see that there's any room for discussion on this issue. Basically, if a DM isn't prepared to award xp publicly, they probably shouldn't be doing it. I see that there's too much room for playing favourites and for avoiding unpleasant responsibilities. -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Jul 21 12:40:40 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id MAA09495; Fri, 21 Jul 2000 12:33:55 +1200 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id MAA09492 for ; Fri, 21 Jul 2000 12:33:50 +1200 Received: from work.ihug.co.nz (p192-tnt5.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.194.192]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id MAA06017 for ; Fri, 21 Jul 2000 12:32:45 +1200 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.0.20000721122724.00aaedc0@pop.ihug.co.nz> X-Sender: phaeton@pop.ihug.co.nz X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 12:28:57 +1200 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: Library website updated From: Keith Smith To: dq-announce@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq-announce@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz The library website has been brought up to date. All the changes are listed in the "What's New" document. If anyone has any comments etc, please let me know. Keith (phaeton@ihug.co.nz) -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Jul 24 09:55:38 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id JAA03991; Mon, 24 Jul 2000 09:40:53 +1200 Received: from qedweb.qed.co.nz ([203.97.23.140] (may be forged)) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id JAA03988 for ; Mon, 24 Jul 2000 09:40:48 +1200 Received: by localhost with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Mon, 24 Jul 2000 09:37:38 +1200 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 09:37:36 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain Subject: Lost Rules: Range Penalties to Base Chance From: Stephen Martin To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Missing: The rules for penalties to base chance and/or damage due to range for thrown and missile weapons. Looks something like "-1 per hex after the first 5 hexes for bows and crossbows". Last sighting unknown. But is not apparent in the DQ2000 rules. Have these been deliberately removed, accidentally removed, or am I going blind? I vaguely recall some discussion about removing them 'cos they were more hassle than value but I don't remember when or any details. Cheers, Stephen. -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Jul 24 10:55:14 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id KAA04461; Mon, 24 Jul 2000 10:46:17 +1200 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id KAA04458 for ; Mon, 24 Jul 2000 10:46:14 +1200 Received: from work.ihug.co.nz (p112-tnt5.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.194.112]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id KAA21777 for ; Mon, 24 Jul 2000 10:44:04 +1200 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.0.20000724103929.00ade600@pop.ihug.co.nz> X-Sender: flamis@pop.ihug.co.nz X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 10:40:40 +1200 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: Re: Lost Rules: Range Penalties to Base Chance From: Jacqui Smith To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz At 09:37 AM 7/24/00 +1200, you wrote: >Missing: The rules for penalties to base chance and/or damage due to range >for thrown and missile weapons. >Looks something like "-1 per hex after the first 5 hexes for bows and >crossbows". >Last sighting unknown. But is not apparent in the DQ2000 rules. > >Have these been deliberately removed, accidentally removed, or am I going >blind? >I vaguely recall some discussion about removing them 'cos they were more >hassle than value but I don't remember when or any details. They're still there - in the strike chance modifiers table - section 57.3 Jacqui -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Jul 24 11:40:52 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id LAA04901; Mon, 24 Jul 2000 11:26:26 +1200 Received: from fclaklmr02.fcl.co.nz ([202.14.23.202] (may be forged)) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with SMTP id LAA04897 for ; Mon, 24 Jul 2000 11:26:22 +1200 Received: from falaklex00.falum.co.nz (10.8.1.28) by fclaklmr02.fcl.co.nz Monday, July 24, 2000 11:20:08 Message-ID: Received: by falaklex00.fcl.co.nz with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Mon, 24 Jul 2000 11:22:59 +1200 Message-ID: <311B3C3DD32FD311B33900805F770A7202261422@falaklex00.fcl.co.nz> Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 11:22:55 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01BFF4FC.EFC9FF40" Subject: RE: Lost Rules: Range Penalties to Base Chance From: "Andrew Withy (FAL AKL)" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01BFF4FC.EFC9FF40 Content-Type: text/plain There used to be a damage reduction as well for range: -1 per 25 hexes, or such. Was this removed with the advanced/siege missile weapons section? Andrew > -----Original Message----- > From: Jacqui Smith [SMTP:flamis@ihug.co.nz] > Sent: Monday, July 24, 2000 10:41 AM > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Subject: Re: Lost Rules: Range Penalties to Base Chance > > At 09:37 AM 7/24/00 +1200, you wrote: > >Missing: The rules for penalties to base chance and/or damage due to > range > >for thrown and missile weapons. > >Looks something like "-1 per hex after the first 5 hexes for bows and > >crossbows". > >Last sighting unknown. But is not apparent in the DQ2000 rules. > > > >Have these been deliberately removed, accidentally removed, or am I going > >blind? > >I vaguely recall some discussion about removing them 'cos they were more > >hassle than value but I don't remember when or any details. > > They're still there - in the strike chance modifiers table - section 57.3 > > Jacqui > > > > > > -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- ------_=_NextPart_001_01BFF4FC.EFC9FF40 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Lost Rules: Range Penalties to Base Chance

There used to be a = damage reduction as well for range: -1 per 25 hexes, or such. Was this = removed with the advanced/siege missile weapons section?

Andrew

    -----Original Message-----
    From:   Jacqui Smith [SMTP:flamis@ihug.co.nz]
    Sent:   Monday, July 24, 2000 10:41 AM
    To:     dq@dq.sf.org.nz
    Subject:       = Re: Lost Rules: Range Penalties to = Base Chance

    At 09:37 AM 7/24/00 +1200, you = wrote:
    >Missing: The rules for penalties = to base chance and/or damage due to range
    >for thrown and missile = weapons.
    >Looks something like "-1 per = hex after the first 5 hexes for bows and
    >crossbows".
    >Last sighting unknown.  But = is not apparent in the DQ2000 rules.
    >
    >Have these been deliberately = removed, accidentally removed, or am I going
    >blind?
    >I vaguely recall some discussion = about removing them 'cos they were more
    >hassle than value but I don't = remember when or any details.

    They're still there - in the strike = chance modifiers table - section 57.3

    Jacqui





    -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html = --

------_=_NextPart_001_01BFF4FC.EFC9FF40-- -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Jul 24 12:11:33 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id LAA05140; Mon, 24 Jul 2000 11:55:58 +1200 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (smtp2.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.8]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id LAA05137 for ; Mon, 24 Jul 2000 11:55:55 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p127-tnt2.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.245.127]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id LAA06467 for ; Mon, 24 Jul 2000 11:53:43 +1200 Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 11:50:00 +1200 Message-ID: <01bff500$b6d54ae0$7ff56dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000D_01BFF565.4C0A2AE0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Lost Rules: Range Penalties to Base Chance From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BFF565.4C0A2AE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Andrew Withy wrote: =20 There used to be a damage reduction as well for range: -1 per 25 = hexes, or such. Was this removed with the advanced/siege missile weapons = section? =20 If they were removed, then it was a good thing. Arrows probably = don't lose any of their harm inflicting ability. They go up, and then = they come down... =20 You could make an argument for thrown weapons, but I don't know that = the effort is worth the candle. The damage is pretty okay at the moment. = After all, if you reduce damage by range, then mages become extremely = powerful...Not that they aren't already. Nevertheless, there's no reason = to make them tougher. =20 Jim =20 ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BFF565.4C0A2AE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Lost Rules: Range Penalties to Base = Chance
Andrew Withy = wrote:
 

There used to be a = damage reduction=20 as well for range: -1 per 25 hexes, or such. Was this removed with = the=20 advanced/siege missile weapons section?

If they were removed, then it was = a good=20 thing. Arrows probably don't lose any of their harm inflicting = ability. They=20 go up, and then they come down...

You could make an argument for thrown weapons, but = I don't=20 know that the effort is worth the candle. The damage is pretty okay = at the=20 moment. After all, if you reduce damage by range, then mages become=20 extremely powerful...Not that they aren't already. Nevertheless, there's no reason to make them = tougher.

Jim

------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BFF565.4C0A2AE0-- -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Jul 24 14:40:13 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id OAA06145; Mon, 24 Jul 2000 14:33:29 +1200 Received: from akl-notes2.aj.co.nz (akl-notes.aj.co.nz [202.27.194.165]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id OAA06142 for ; Mon, 24 Jul 2000 14:33:23 +1200 Received: from akl-notes.aj.co.nz ([192.168.4.165]) by akl-notes2.aj.co.nz (Lotus Domino Release 5.0.3 (Intl)) with ESMTP id 2000072413280676:5888 ; Mon, 24 Jul 2000 13:28:06 +1200 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.3 (Intl) 21 March 2000 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 13:23:08 +1200 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on akl-notes.aj.co.nz/AJNzl/NZ(Release 5.0.3 (Intl)|21 March 2000) at 24/07/2000 13:23:09, Serialize complete at 24/07/2000 13:23:09, Itemize by SMTP Server on akl-notes2/AJNzl/NZ(Release 5.0.3 (Intl)|21 March 2000) at 24/07/2000 13:28:06, Serialize by Router on akl-notes2/AJNzl/NZ(Release 5.0.3 (Intl)|21 March 2000) at 24/07/2000 14:35:49, Serialize complete at 24/07/2000 14:35:49 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 00083A77CC256926_=" Subject: Re: Lost Rules: Range Penalties to Base Chance From: RMansfield@aj.co.nz To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 00083A77CC256926_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" There are in Table 57.3, Ranged Combat Modifiers/Penalties I think this is where they have always been. Rosemary Stephen Martin Sent by: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz 24/07/2000 09:37 Please respond to dq To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz cc: Subject: Lost Rules: Range Penalties to Base Chance Missing: The rules for penalties to base chance and/or damage due to range for thrown and missile weapons. Looks something like "-1 per hex after the first 5 hexes for bows and crossbows". Last sighting unknown. But is not apparent in the DQ2000 rules. Have these been deliberately removed, accidentally removed, or am I going blind? I vaguely recall some discussion about removing them 'cos they were more hassle than value but I don't remember when or any details. Cheers, Stephen. -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- --=_alternative 00083A77CC256926_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
There are in Table 57.3, Ranged Combat Modifiers/Penalties
I think this is where they have always been.

Rosemary


Stephen Martin <stephenm@qed.co.nz>
Sent by: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz

24/07/2000 09:37
Please respond to dq

       
        To:        dq@dq.sf.org.nz
        cc:        
        Subject:        Lost Rules: Range Penalties to Base Chance


Missing: The rules for penalties to base chance and/or damage due to range
for thrown and missile weapons.
Looks something like "-1 per hex after the first 5 hexes for bows and
crossbows".
Last sighting unknown.  But is not apparent in the DQ2000 rules.

Have these been deliberately removed, accidentally removed, or am I going
blind?
I vaguely recall some discussion about removing them 'cos they were more
hassle than value but I don't remember when or any details.

Cheers, Stephen.



-- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html --

--=_alternative 00083A77CC256926_=-- -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jul 26 12:14:11 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id LAA24926; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 11:58:27 +1200 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id LAA24923 for ; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 11:58:21 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p63-tnt2.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.245.63]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id LAA09742 for ; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 11:54:58 +1200 Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 11:50:53 +1200 Message-ID: <01bff693$2b417a00$60f56dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001E_01BFF6F7.C0765A00" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Quickness From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01BFF6F7.C0765A00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable We need to talk about Quickness. At the moment, the spell creates = more problems than it solves. On one hand, the spell is a standard of the fantasy genre, whatever = the rationalisation. On the other, it is a spell that MAKES players choose it, because it = doubles their choices. On yet another, DMs are pressured to find ways to deal with = Quickness.=20 The DM has to foil Quickness, because it such a powerful effect. If = the party have the spell, then the tough NPCs have to have it, as well, = or they have to have some way of countering it. At the moment, the only = real counter is Slowness, and that spell creates a book-keeping = nightmare. The way that Quickness (without resorting to Slowness) is dealt = with something like this: 1) Increase the numbers of opponents. Where the party would have faced = 6, now they face 12, say. 2) Increase the base toughness of the opponents, i.e. making the NPCs = more magically resistant, provide more FT and EN, increase their = initiative values, etc. 3) Give the opponents special abilities that let them counter the = Quickness in some way, for example, a talent that provides them with = twice as many actions as the person they're facing.=20 4) Provide penalties for the use of Quickness. For example, the DM might = say that Quickness was an assault upon the integrity of Time itself, and = whenever Quickness was cast, it attracted the attentions of strange, = twisted creatures beyond Time and Space. Or whatever. 5) Create environmental problems with casting. For example, within the = area of this stone, Quickness spells always fail.=20 6) Provide the NPCs with magic, either invested or known, that counters = the Quickness, or provides them with Quickness. 7) No change at all. The NPCs are just mown down where they stand, and = the only thing the get to do is gulp like gold fish. I suppose there are more alternatives out there, but I can't think = of them right now, and it doesn't really matter. You get the idea. On the one hand, a DM that doesn't deal with Quickness is = threatening suspension of disbelief at the middle to high end of the = game, because at that level of game, the NPCs ought to be a serious = threat. And, with one spell, the players can reduce their opponent's = threat value by nearly half. On the other, if all of the NPCs have some means of dealing with = Quickness, then the spell no longer provides a bonus, instead it = provides a resistance vs the resourcefulness of the NPCs. Suspension of = disbelief is threatened because it's hard to sustain the conviction that = so many NPCs can deal with one spell. =20 Therefore, I proprose that we change Quickness. We cannot afford to = get rid of the spell entirely, because it it too firmly entrenched in = the medium. If the spell were removed, then people would get it, or = something like it, in other ways. An added benefit of altering Quickness is that it might not be the = first spell the E&E mage always casts. Option 1: Range of the spell is self, only.=20 Advantages: The spell can only be stored in a potion, so the whole = party can't be covered by it, unless they al use potions.=20 One spell doesn't cover the party.=20 The DM can use Quickness defeating magic at = their discretion, rather than with the degree of regularity that they = are forced to.=20 Because potions are expensive, players must = use their stored Quicknesses carefully. Disadvantages: Doesn't stop the E&E mage from casting Quickness = first, except in really unusual situations. Option 2: Range of the spell is touch: Advantages: Fewer numbers of people are Quickened, except when they = are executing an ambush.=20 One spell doesn't cover the party. =20 Disadvantages: The pressure here is for the E&E mage to cast = Quickness on every member of the party that they can get to. This means = that the E&E will travel around the party, casting the spell = sequentially on the other players. This becomes the ONLY spell they ever = cast, although they may have other spells ranked.=20 Characters are forced to operate at = different time rates, until all members are Quickened.=20 Option 3: The spell becomes a skill or proficiency that anyone can learn: Advantages: Easy to administer. Everyone will have the proficiency, = so everyone will know what their Quickness value is. Because the effect is not 'magical' per se, = and presumably a measure of experience, it means that as the players = progress to higher levels, then they will naturally encounter NPCs with = enhanced initiatives. Disadvantages: I can't think of any. Mind you, it just occurred to = me. Anyone? Option 4: The spell changes in no other respect, except that anyone who = operates under the effects of a Quickness loses 2 points of spell FT = every pulse. When they are out of FT, the Quickness ends. Advantages: Increases the situations where you might not cast this = spell, first. Players will tend to be either Quickened, or = not Quickened. Penalises spell casters, and gives fighters = something to spend FT on. Provides for an easy way to counter the = spell. Disadvantages: Fiddly to administer. The DM would have to be = constantly refactoring FT levels, and checking to see if an NPC had all = of their FT. It's still a damned good 'first spell' = alternative. It might be used as a kind of damage = spell against a trapped opponent. Not that I think that's much of a = problem. =20 ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01BFF6F7.C0765A00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    We need=20 to talk about Quickness. At the moment, the spell creates more problems = than it=20 solves.
    On one hand, the spell is a = standard of the=20 fantasy genre, whatever the rationalisation.
    On the other, it is a spell that = MAKES=20 players choose it, because it doubles their choices.
    On yet another, DMs are pressured = to find=20 ways to deal with Quickness.
    The DM has to foil Quickness, = because it=20 such a powerful effect. If the party have the spell, then the tough NPCs = have to=20 have it, as well, or they have to have some way of countering it. At the = moment,=20 the only real counter is Slowness, and that spell creates a book-keeping = nightmare.
       =20 The way that Quickness (without resorting to Slowness) is dealt with = something=20 like this:
1) Increase the numbers of opponents. Where the = party would=20 have faced 6, now they face 12, say.
2) Increase the base toughness of the opponents, = i.e. making=20 the NPCs more magically resistant, provide more FT and EN, increase = their=20 initiative values, etc.
3) Give the opponents special abilities that let = them counter=20 the Quickness in some way, for example, a talent that provides them with = twice=20 as many actions as the person they're facing.
4) Provide penalties for the use of Quickness. For = example,=20 the DM might say that Quickness was an assault upon the integrity of = Time=20 itself, and whenever Quickness was cast, it attracted the attentions of = strange,=20 twisted creatures beyond Time and Space. Or whatever.
5) Create environmental problems with casting. For = example,=20 within the area of this stone, Quickness spells always fail. =  
6) Provide the NPCs with magic, either invested or = known, that=20 counters the Quickness, or provides them with = Quickness. 
7) No change at all. The NPCs are just mown down = where they=20 stand, and the only thing the get to do is gulp like gold=20 fish. 
 
    I suppose there = are more=20 alternatives out there, but I can't think of them right now, and it = doesn't=20 really matter. You get the idea.
    On the one hand, = a DM that=20 doesn't deal with Quickness is threatening suspension of disbelief at = the middle=20 to high end of the game, because at that level of game, the NPCs ought = to be a=20 serious threat. And, with one spell, the players can reduce their = opponent's=20 threat value by nearly half. 
    On the other, if all of the NPCs have some = means of=20 dealing with Quickness, then the spell no longer provides a bonus, = instead it=20 provides a resistance vs the resourcefulness of the NPCs. Suspension of=20 disbelief is threatened because it's hard to sustain the conviction that = so many=20 NPCs can deal with one spell.
    
    Therefore, I = proprose that we=20 change Quickness. We cannot afford to get rid of the spell entirely, = because it=20 it too firmly entrenched in the medium. If the spell were removed, then = people=20 would get it, or something like it, in other ways.
    An added benefit of altering Quickness is = that it=20 might not be the first spell the E&E mage always casts.
 
Option 1:
    Range of the = spell is self,=20 only. 
    Advantages: The = spell can=20 only be stored in a potion, so the whole party can't be covered by it, = unless=20 they al use potions.
          &nbs= p;            = ;    =20 One spell doesn't cover the party.
          &nbs= p;            = ;    =20 The DM can use Quickness defeating magic at their discretion, rather = than with=20 the degree of regularity that they are forced to.
          &nbs= p;            = ;    =20 Because potions are expensive, players must use their stored Quicknesses = carefully.
 
    Disadvantages: = Doesn't stop=20 the E&E mage from casting Quickness first, except in really unusual=20 situations.
 
Option 2:
    Range of the = spell is=20 touch:
    Advantages: Fewer = numbers of=20 people are Quickened, except when they are executing an ambush. =
          &nbs= p;            = ;    =20 One spell doesn't cover the party. 
    Disadvantages: = The pressure=20 here is for the E&E mage to cast Quickness on every member of the = party that=20 they can get to. This means that the E&E will travel around the = party,=20 casting the spell sequentially on the other players. This becomes the = ONLY spell=20 they ever cast, although they may have other spells ranked. =  
          &nbs= p;            = ;        =20 Characters are forced to operate at different time rates, until all = members are=20 Quickened.
Option 3:
    The spell becomes a skill or = proficiency=20 that anyone can learn:
    Advantages: Easy to administer. = Everyone=20 will have the proficiency, so everyone will know what their Quickness = value=20 is.
          &nbs= p;            = ;    =20 Because the effect is not 'magical' per se, and presumably a measure of=20 experience, it means that as the players progress to higher levels, then = they=20 will naturally encounter NPCs with enhanced initiatives.
    Disadvantages: I can't think of = any. Mind=20 you, it just occurred to me. Anyone?
 
Option 4:
    The spell changes in no other = respect,=20 except that anyone who operates under the effects of a Quickness loses 2 = points=20 of spell FT every pulse. When they are out of FT, the Quickness=20 ends.
    Advantages: Increases the = situations where=20 you might not cast this spell, first.
          &nbs= p;            = ;    =20 Players will tend to be either Quickened, or not Quickened.
          &nbs= p;            = ;    =20 Penalises spell casters, and gives fighters something to spend FT=20 on. 
          &nbs= p;            = ;    =20 Provides for an easy way to counter the spell.
    Disadvantages: Fiddly to = administer. The DM=20 would have to be constantly refactoring FT levels, and checking to see = if an NPC=20 had all of their FT.
          &nbs= p;            = ;        =20 It's still a damned good 'first spell' alternative.
          &nbs= p;            = ;        =20 It might be used as a kind of damage spell against = a trapped=20 opponent. Not that I think that's much of a problem.
 
 
 
          &nbs= p;            = ;        =20
------=_NextPart_000_001E_01BFF6F7.C0765A00-- -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jul 26 12:59:12 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id MAA25308; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 12:53:10 +1200 Received: from fclaklmr02.fcl.co.nz ([202.14.23.202] (may be forged)) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with SMTP id MAA25305 for ; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 12:53:05 +1200 Received: from falaklex00.falum.co.nz (10.8.1.28) by fclaklmr02.fcl.co.nz Wednesday, July 26, 2000 12:45:36 Message-ID: Received: by falaklex00.fcl.co.nz with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 12:48:26 +1200 Message-ID: <311B3C3DD32FD311B33900805F770A7202261433@falaklex00.fcl.co.nz> Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 12:48:24 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01BFF69B.34CE4E90" Subject: RE: Quickness From: "Andrew Withy (FAL AKL)" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01BFF69B.34CE4E90 Content-Type: text/plain Perceived Disadvantages of approach #3: 1) It's a survival skill that everyone will have to get to keep up with each other. An arma race, in other words. 2) It will (presumably) need to have multiple levels of effects, one at each rank or two - other wise its just a one-off EP expenditure to act twice a pulse. THis makes it much more complex. 3) Fighters having 3/2 attacks per round, then having 2 attacks per round at higher levels sounds like AD&D. Not that AD&D is bad, its just a different sub-genre of game. 4) Its magic, damn it. The same argument as having purification as a non-magical skill that lets fighters increase PS/EN/etc. 5) Conversion could be messy. 6) What does it have to do with E&Es any more? Advantages: I can't think of any. Mind you, it just occured to me. BTW: I agree with almost all of the rest of Jim's email about Quickness being a huge advantage - not only on attack, but almost guaranteeing escape as well. It also lets a player do more, which is a huge player reward. Andrew > -----Original Message----- > From: Jim Arona [SMTP:jimarona@ihug.co.nz] > Option 3: > The spell becomes a skill or proficiency that anyone can learn: > Advantages: Easy to administer. Everyone will have the proficiency, so > everyone will know what their Quickness value is. > Because the effect is not 'magical' per se, > and presumably a measure of experience, it means that as the players > progress to higher levels, then they will naturally encounter NPCs with > enhanced initiatives. > Disadvantages: I can't think of any. Mind you, it just occurred to me. > Anyone? > > ------_=_NextPart_001_01BFF69B.34CE4E90 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Quickness

Perceived = Disadvantages of approach #3:
1) It's a survival = skill that everyone will have to get to keep up with each other. An = arma race, in other words.
2) It will = (presumably) need to have multiple levels of effects, one at each rank = or two - other wise its just a one-off EP expenditure to act twice a = pulse. THis makes it much more complex.

3) <emotional = perception>Fighters having 3/2 attacks per round, then having 2 = attacks per round at higher levels sounds like AD&D. Not that = AD&D is bad, its just a different sub-genre of game.

4) Its magic, damn = it. The same argument as having purification as a non-magical skill = that lets fighters increase PS/EN/etc.

5) Conversion could = be messy.
6) What does it = have to do with E&Es any more?

Advantages:
I can't think of = any. Mind you, it just occured to me.

BTW: I agree with = almost all of the rest of Jim's email about Quickness being a huge = advantage - not only on attack, but almost guaranteeing escape as well. = It also lets a player do more, which is a huge player = reward.

Andrew

    -----Original Message-----
    From:   Jim Arona [SMTP:jimarona@ihug.co.nz]
    Option 3:
    =A0=A0=A0 The spell becomes a skill = or proficiency that anyone can learn:
    =A0=A0=A0 Advantages: Easy to = administer. Everyone will have the proficiency, so everyone will know = what their Quickness value is.

    =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Because the effect is not 'magical' per se, = and presumably a measure of experience, it means that as the players = progress to higher levels, then they will naturally encounter NPCs with = enhanced initiatives.

    =A0=A0=A0 Disadvantages: I can't think = of any. Mind you, it just occurred to me. Anyone?
    =A0

------_=_NextPart_001_01BFF69B.34CE4E90-- -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jul 26 13:30:17 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id NAA25506; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 13:22:16 +1200 Received: from fep4-orange.clear.net.nz (fep4-orange.clear.net.nz [203.97.32.4]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id NAA25503 for ; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 13:22:13 +1200 Received: from comms.maclean.co.nz (d2-u39.acld.clear.net.nz [203.97.48.103]) by fep4-orange.clear.net.nz (1.5/1.7) with ESMTP id NAA18869; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 13:18:51 +1200 (NZST) Received: by comms.maclean.co.nz with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) id ; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 13:03:36 +1200 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 13:03:34 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: Quickness From: Tom Mason To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz I like the third idea where the ranks can be offset with a Strkie = chance modification. I would assume that most people would not know what to do = in a quickened state and therefore need some training in it. This could then result in a person with rank 0 quickness skill has a -20% Strike chance modifier. It could then be increased up to rank 10 with a difference of = 2% per rank and treated like an adventure skill or up to rank 20 which = could give some bonuses - eg Rank 20 quickness skill has a +10% or +20% = Strike Chance modifier depending on whether the positive increments should be = 1% or 2%. =A0 Tom -----Original Message----- From: Andrew Withy (FAL AKL) [mailto:AndrewW@falum.co.nz] Sent: Wednesday, 26 July 2000 12:48 To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Subject: RE: Quickness Perceived Disadvantages of approach #3:=20 1) It's a survival skill that everyone will have to get to keep up with = each other. An arma race, in other words.=20 2) It will (presumably) need to have multiple levels of effects, one at = each rank or two - other wise its just a one-off EP expenditure to act twice = a pulse. THis makes it much more complex. 3) Fighters having 3/2 attacks per round, then = having 2 attacks per round at higher levels sounds like AD&D. Not that AD&D is = bad, its just a different sub-genre of game. 4) Its magic, damn it. The same argument as having purification as a non-magical skill that lets fighters increase PS/EN/etc. 5) Conversion could be messy.=20 6) What does it have to do with E&Es any more?=20 Advantages:=20 I can't think of any. Mind you, it just occured to me.=20 BTW: I agree with almost all of the rest of Jim's email about Quickness being a huge advantage - not only on attack, but almost guaranteeing = escape as well. It also lets a player do more, which is a huge player reward. Andrew=20 -----Original Message-----=20 From:=A0=A0 Jim Arona [SMTP:jimarona@ihug.co.nz]=20 Option 3:=20 =A0=A0=A0 The spell becomes a skill or proficiency that anyone can = learn:=20 =A0=A0=A0 Advantages: Easy to administer. Everyone will have the = proficiency, so everyone will know what their Quickness value is. = =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0 Because the effect is not 'magical' per se, and presumably a measure of experience, it means that as the = players progress to higher levels, then they will naturally encounter NPCs with enhanced initiatives. =A0=A0=A0 Disadvantages: I can't think of any. Mind you, it just = occurred to me. Anyone?=20 =A0=20 -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jul 26 13:32:15 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id NAA25483; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 13:20:04 +1200 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id NAA25470 for ; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 13:19:58 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p63-tnt2.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.245.63]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id NAA18311 for ; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 13:16:35 +1200 Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 13:12:29 +1200 Message-ID: <01bff69e$91d3b660$60f56dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0033_01BFF703.27089660" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Quickness From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0033_01BFF703.27089660 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Andrew Withy wrote: =20 Perceived Disadvantages of approach #3:=20 1) It's a survival skill that everyone will have to get to keep up = with each other. An arma race, in other words.=20 =20 Well, so what? What isn't an arm's race? That's the point of an = escalating system.=20 =20 =20 2) It will (presumably) need to have multiple levels of effects, one = at each rank or two - other wise its just a one-off EP expenditure to = act twice a pulse. THis makes it much more complex. =20 I don't know that we need to do it quite like that. There are lots = of ways of doing it. It isn't an objection to say that the way that it = might work is flawed, when we haven't determined how it will work. =20 However, as a point for working out what one ought to avoid, this = isn't bad. =20 3) Fighters having 3/2 attacks per round, then = having 2 attacks per round at higher levels sounds like AD&D. Not that = AD&D is bad, its just a different sub-genre of game. =20 This is no objection at all. This objection says that it's like = another game and therefore doesn't quite work in this one. Again ,the = other point remains valid. On top of which, I suggest that this is = actually a kind of distraction from the issue. I'm aware that Andrew has = said it's an emotional response. The point is, however, that that's all = it is. =20 If it doesn't substantially move the issue forward, then it doesn't = do anything useful. =20 4) Its magic, damn it. The same argument as having purification as a = non-magical skill that lets fighters increase PS/EN/etc. =20 I'm afraid this one flew so far over my head I didn't even hear the = wings flap...What does this mean? =20 5) Conversion could be messy.=20 =20 It's not like it's not messy, now, and in the middle of combat. The = only place that this is going to be messy is some time from now. This = point cannot be raised as frequently as it is, unless it's attended with = some other remark. Otherwise the game never moves forwards, it just = stagnates.=20 =20 The world is full of games that offer great new insights into = different ways to run games. Whenever a new process is raised as being = useful, the messiness of conversion is raised as a countering argument. = Every bloody time a coconut. This HAS to end. =20 Yes, there is a point in making the observation, if it is attended = with some other comment. For example, you might say that conversion = would be messy, and the resulting improvement in the game would be = minor. That, at least, is an argument. =20 Otherwise, the only point that is being made is that DQ is a game = that is frightened of confronting emerging developments in games.=20 =20 =20 6) What does it have to do with E&Es any more?=20 =20 Well, the point could be just as easily made like this: What did it = have to do with E&Es in the first place? Again, this is no argument. =20 The point I'm making is that it would not be a spell. It would be = some kind of proficiency open to everyone. If it's open to everyone, = then everyone has it, as well as E&Es. =20 Thanks for the feedback, Andrew, but I just don't see that these = objections are that powerful a counter. =20 =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0033_01BFF703.27089660 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Quickness
Andrew Withy=20 wrote:
 

Perceived=20 Disadvantages of approach #3:=20
1) It's a survival = skill that=20 everyone will have to get to keep up with each other. An arma race, = in other=20 words.

Well, so=20 what? What isn't an arm's race? That's the point of an escalating = system.=20


2) It=20 will (presumably) need to have multiple levels of effects, one at = each rank=20 or two - other wise its just a one-off EP expenditure to act twice a = pulse.=20 THis makes it much more complex.

I don't=20 know that we need to do it quite like that. There are lots of ways = of doing=20 it. It isn't an objection to say that the way that it might work is = flawed,=20 when we haven't determined how it will work.

However, as a point for working = out what one=20 ought to avoid, this isn't bad. 

3)=20 <emotional perception>Fighters having 3/2 attacks per round, = then=20 having 2 attacks per round at higher levels sounds like AD&D. = Not that=20 AD&D is bad, its just a different sub-genre of = game.

This = is no=20 objection at all. This objection says that it's like another game = and=20 therefore doesn't quite work in this one. Again ,the other point = remains=20 valid. On top of which, I suggest that this is actually a kind of=20 distraction from the issue. I'm aware that Andrew has said it's an = emotional=20 response. The point is, however, that that's all it is.

If it = doesn't=20 substantially move the issue forward, then it doesn't do anything=20 useful.

4) Its=20 magic, damn it. The same argument as having purification as a = non-magical=20 skill that lets fighters increase PS/EN/etc.

I'm afraid this one flew so far = over my head I=20 didn't even hear the wings flap...What does this mean?

5)=20 Conversion could be messy.=20

It's not like it's not messy, now, = and in=20 the middle of combat. The only place that this is going to be messy = is some=20 time from now. This point cannot be raised as frequently as it is, = unless=20 it's attended with some other remark. Otherwise the game never moves = forwards, it just stagnates.

The world is full of games that = offer great=20 new insights into different ways to run games. Whenever a new = process is=20 raised as being useful, the messiness of conversion is raised as a=20 countering argument. Every bloody time a coconut. This HAS to=20 end. 

Yes, there is a point in making = the=20 observation, if it is attended with some other comment. For example, = you=20 might say that conversion would be messy, and the resulting = improvement in=20 the game would be minor. That, at least, is an = argument. 

Otherwise, the only point that is = being made=20 is that DQ is a game that is frightened of confronting emerging = developments=20 in games.  


6)=20 What does it have to do with E&Es any more?

Well, the point could be = just as=20 easily made like this: What did it have to do with E&Es in the = first=20 place? Again, this is no argument. 

The point I'm making is that it would not be a spell. It would be = some=20 kind of proficiency open to everyone. If it's open to everyone, then = everyone has it, as well as E&Es.

Thanks for the feedback, Andrew, but I just don't = see that=20 these objections are that powerful a counter.

 

------=_NextPart_000_0033_01BFF703.27089660-- -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jul 26 13:44:20 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id NAA25698; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 13:40:08 +1200 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id NAA25691 for ; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 13:40:04 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p201-tnt6.akl.ihug.co.nz [216.100.154.201]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id NAA20552 for ; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 13:36:41 +1200 Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 13:32:33 +1200 Message-ID: <01bff6a1$5f5903e0$c99a64d8@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Quickness From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tom Mason wrote: >I like the third idea where the ranks can be offset with a Strkie chance0 >modification. I would assume that most people would not know what to do in a >quickened state and therefore need some training in it. This could then >result in a person with rank 0 quickness skill has a -20% Strike chance >modifier. It could then be increased up to rank 10 with a difference of 2% >per rank and treated like an adventure skill or up to rank 20 which could >give some bonuses - eg Rank 20 quickness skill has a +10% or +20% Strike >Chance modifier depending on whether the positive increments should be 1% or >2%. >>3) Fighters having 3/2 attacks per round, then having >>2 attacks per round at higher levels sounds like AD&D. Not that AD&D is bad, >>its just a different sub-genre of game. >> Okay, I found it. Why bother? What does it add, except some rather uninteresting reality...? Against that, the mod to strike chance is another complication. Andrew reasonably enough points out that any increase in actions is likely to involve some kind of complexity. This would add to the burden, and the only thing that it offers is a pretty minor balancing constraint. -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jul 26 13:46:45 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id NAA25631; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 13:33:58 +1200 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id NAA25628 for ; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 13:33:55 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p201-tnt6.akl.ihug.co.nz [216.100.154.201]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id NAA19937 for ; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 13:30:34 +1200 Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 13:26:26 +1200 Message-ID: <01bff6a0$847dcb20$c99a64d8@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Quickness From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Can you post the the part of the third option that you're referring to? -----Original Message----- From: Tom Mason To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Date: Wednesday, 26 July 2000 13:28 Subject: RE: Quickness I like the third idea where the ranks can be offset with a Strkie chance modification. I would assume that most people would not know what to do in a quickened state and therefore need some training in it. This could then result in a person with rank 0 quickness skill has a -20% Strike chance modifier. It could then be increased up to rank 10 with a difference of 2% per rank and treated like an adventure skill or up to rank 20 which could give some bonuses - eg Rank 20 quickness skill has a +10% or +20% Strike Chance modifier depending on whether the positive increments should be 1% or 2%. Tom -----Original Message----- From: Andrew Withy (FAL AKL) [mailto:AndrewW@falum.co.nz] Sent: Wednesday, 26 July 2000 12:48 To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Subject: RE: Quickness Perceived Disadvantages of approach #3: 1) It's a survival skill that everyone will have to get to keep up with each other. An arma race, in other words. 2) It will (presumably) need to have multiple levels of effects, one at each rank or two - other wise its just a one-off EP expenditure to act twice a pulse. THis makes it much more complex. 3) Fighters having 3/2 attacks per round, then having 2 attacks per round at higher levels sounds like AD&D. Not that AD&D is bad, its just a different sub-genre of game. 4) Its magic, damn it. The same argument as having purification as a non-magical skill that lets fighters increase PS/EN/etc. 5) Conversion could be messy. 6) What does it have to do with E&Es any more? Advantages: I can't think of any. Mind you, it just occured to me. BTW: I agree with almost all of the rest of Jim's email about Quickness being a huge advantage - not only on attack, but almost guaranteeing escape as well. It also lets a player do more, which is a huge player reward. Andrew -----Original Message----- From: Jim Arona [SMTP:jimarona@ihug.co.nz] Option 3: The spell becomes a skill or proficiency that anyone can learn: Advantages: Easy to administer. Everyone will have the proficiency, so everyone will know what their Quickness value is. Because the effect is not 'magical' per se, and presumably a measure of experience, it means that as the players progress to higher levels, then they will naturally encounter NPCs with enhanced initiatives. Disadvantages: I can't think of any. Mind you, it just occurred to me. Anyone? -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jul 26 14:28:51 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id OAA25986; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 14:24:19 +1200 Received: from fep4-orange.clear.net.nz (fep4-orange.clear.net.nz [203.97.32.4]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id OAA25983 for ; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 14:24:14 +1200 Received: from comms.maclean.co.nz (b001-m007-p005.acld.clear.net.nz [203.97.55.69]) by fep4-orange.clear.net.nz (1.5/1.7) with ESMTP id OAA26234; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 14:20:50 +1200 (NZST) Received: by comms.maclean.co.nz with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) id ; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 13:56:03 +1200 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 13:56:02 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) Content-Type: text/plain Subject: RE: Quickness From: Tom Mason To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Option 3: The spell becomes a skill or proficiency that anyone can learn: Advantages: Easy to administer. Everyone will have the proficiency, so everyone will know what their Quickness value is. Because the effect is not 'magical' per se, and presumably a measure of experience, it means that as the players progress to higher levels, then they will naturally encounter NPCs with enhanced initiatives. Disadvantages: I can't think of any. Mind you, it just occurred to me. Anyone? -----Original Message----- From: Jim Arona [mailto:jimarona@ihug.co.nz] Sent: Wednesday, 26 July 2000 13:26 To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Subject: Re: Quickness Can you post the the part of the third option that you're referring to? -----Original Message----- From: Tom Mason To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Date: Wednesday, 26 July 2000 13:28 Subject: RE: Quickness I like the third idea where the ranks can be offset with a Strkie chance modification. I would assume that most people would not know what to do in a quickened state and therefore need some training in it. This could then result in a person with rank 0 quickness skill has a -20% Strike chance modifier. It could then be increased up to rank 10 with a difference of 2% per rank and treated like an adventure skill or up to rank 20 which could give some bonuses - eg Rank 20 quickness skill has a +10% or +20% Strike Chance modifier depending on whether the positive increments should be 1% or 2%. Tom -----Original Message----- From: Andrew Withy (FAL AKL) [mailto:AndrewW@falum.co.nz] Sent: Wednesday, 26 July 2000 12:48 To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Subject: RE: Quickness Perceived Disadvantages of approach #3: 1) It's a survival skill that everyone will have to get to keep up with each other. An arma race, in other words. 2) It will (presumably) need to have multiple levels of effects, one at each rank or two - other wise its just a one-off EP expenditure to act twice a pulse. THis makes it much more complex. 3) Fighters having 3/2 attacks per round, then having 2 attacks per round at higher levels sounds like AD&D. Not that AD&D is bad, its just a different sub-genre of game. 4) Its magic, damn it. The same argument as having purification as a non-magical skill that lets fighters increase PS/EN/etc. 5) Conversion could be messy. 6) What does it have to do with E&Es any more? Advantages: I can't think of any. Mind you, it just occured to me. BTW: I agree with almost all of the rest of Jim's email about Quickness being a huge advantage - not only on attack, but almost guaranteeing escape as well. It also lets a player do more, which is a huge player reward. Andrew -----Original Message----- From: Jim Arona [SMTP:jimarona@ihug.co.nz] Option 3: The spell becomes a skill or proficiency that anyone can learn: Advantages: Easy to administer. Everyone will have the proficiency, so everyone will know what their Quickness value is. Because the effect is not 'magical' per se, and presumably a measure of experience, it means that as the players progress to higher levels, then they will naturally encounter NPCs with enhanced initiatives. Disadvantages: I can't think of any. Mind you, it just occurred to me. Anyone? -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jul 26 14:44:53 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id OAA26137; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 14:40:11 +1200 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id OAA26109 for ; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 14:40:02 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p201-tnt6.akl.ihug.co.nz [216.100.154.201]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id OAA27445 for ; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 14:36:38 +1200 Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 14:32:32 +1200 Message-ID: <01bff6a9$c02f6260$c99a64d8@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Quickness From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Okay, it appears I guessed wrong. I thought you were referring to Andrew's 3rd option. My criticism still stands, though...It's just another complication with the only useful quality that it has to offer is that it models reality a little better, in exchange for bookkeeping. I don't think it would be worth the pain in the butt it would be to administrate it. Tom Mason wrote: >Option 3: >The spell becomes a skill or proficiency that anyone can learn: >Advantages: Easy to administer. Everyone will have the proficiency, so >everyone will know what their Quickness value is. >Because the effect is not 'magical' per se, and presumably a measure of >experience, it means that as the players progress to higher levels, then >they will naturally encounter NPCs with enhanced initiatives. >Disadvantages: I can't think of any. Mind you, it just occurred to me. >Anyone? > I like the third idea where the ranks can be offset with a >Strkie chance > modification. I would assume that most people would not know >what to do in a > quickened state and therefore need some training in it. This >could then > result in a person with rank 0 quickness skill has a -20% >Strike chance > modifier. It could then be increased up to rank 10 with a >difference of 2% > per rank and treated like an adventure skill or up to rank >20 which could > give some bonuses - eg Rank 20 quickness skill has a +10% or >+20% Strike > Chance modifier depending on whether the positive increments >should be 1% or > 2%. -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jul 26 14:46:25 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id OAA26104; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 14:40:01 +1200 Received: from westpac.co.nz (firewall1.westpac.co.nz [210.55.236.18]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id OAA26101 for ; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 14:39:55 +1200 Received: by firewall1.westpac.co.nz id <32282>; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 14:41:06 +1200 X-Lotus-FromDomain: WESTPACTRUST Message-Id: <00Jul26.144106nzst.32282@firewall1.westpac.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 14:41:05 +1200 Subject: Re: Quickness From: "Mark Simpson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz I agree that quickness is a very powerful effect, and I am leaning towards the view that it is "too powerful" or "unbalancing". A simple solution which would be to re-write the spell so that instead of giving 2 actions every pulse it gave 3 actions every two pulses, so that every second pulse the characters (or npc's) got a second action. This would involve no additional accounting/record keeping by the GM and would considerably lessen (halve) the effect of the spell, whilst it would remain a very useful spell for an E&E to get. An ep refund might be in order for but discussing that at this stage is premature. Warning to DQ traditionalists - this paragraph may offend your delicate sensibilities >>>> Another way to change this, and many other, "overpowered" spells in DQ is to change the fundamental base mechanic that a spell costs either one FT to cast (general) or two FT (special) and its effectiveness is often (but not always) totally dependant on rank. I have always had problems with the arguement that you can "balance" a spell simply by tinkering with the EM or base chance or $$$ cost to buy it. By way of example - in this instance you could make quickness cost 2 FT plus say 2 FT per additional target. For those "nasty" damage spells we are forever watering down you could again make the "dmg out" bare some relation to FT put in by the mage. Instead of a mage being able to stand there casting 10+ "resist or die" (or even "resist and take half and still die" in some cases) spells at the rate of one every other pulse (every pulse if quickened ... ) instead such a mage would only be able to cast maybe one or two such spells before running out of fatigue. The mage then has to decide between one or two "big bangs" or half a dozen or so smaller ones. /\/\ark ----------------------------------------------------------------- The contents of this e-mail are confidential to Westpac Banking Corporation. If you have received this communication by mistake, please advise the sender immediately and delete the message and any attachments. The views expressed in this e-mail are not necessarily the views of Westpac Banking Corporation. Westpac Banking Corporation is incorporated in New South Wales, Australia. ----------------------------------------------------------------- -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jul 26 14:49:25 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id OAA26146; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 14:40:39 +1200 Received: from fclaklmr02.fcl.co.nz ([202.14.23.202] (may be forged)) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with SMTP id OAA26143 for ; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 14:40:34 +1200 Received: from falaklex00.falum.co.nz (10.8.1.28) by fclaklmr02.fcl.co.nz Wednesday, July 26, 2000 14:33:06 Message-ID: Received: by falaklex00.fcl.co.nz with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 14:35:57 +1200 Message-ID: <311B3C3DD32FD311B33900805F770A7202261437@falaklex00.fcl.co.nz> Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 14:35:56 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01BFF6AA.39DE8CE0" Subject: RE: Quickness From: "Andrew Withy (FAL AKL)" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01BFF6AA.39DE8CE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sorry for being opaque - I was indicating "standard" arguments rather than making them completely stand-alone. Readers who understood (and agreed or disagreed) my reasons last time, close this email now. 1) A compulsory skill that everyone must purchase reduces character development, differentiation, etc by being a compulsory spending sink for EP. If neccessary, I'll find the quotes from Jim Arona in previous discussions on this point. If a skill is necessary to have to survive (as I perceive a quickness skill to be, even more than perception currently), it limits options, apart from those who choose to be different by ignoring the "sensible" option. This is a reason to discourage everyone to have a quickness skill or spell. 2) While there are a number of ways to implement it, most of them will either have a flat or incremental effect. A flat effect will give little reason for ranking, an incremental effect (e.g., varying FT cost, varying strike chance penalty/bonus, varying duration, varying # of actions, varying choice of action, varying IV, etc.) will need to be structured in a simple manner, which limits the options available for balancing the skill. This is a warning of difficulty of implementation not a counter-argument. 3) The style and genre of game available changes if (for example) a skilled fighter can expect to kill four town guards in a single pulse without magic, as opposed to the current DQ system. This is a warning of a potential change of style/game balance. Game balance and game style need to be reasonably managed (though open to change/evolution/flucuation) in a multi-GM, multi-decade campaign. Again this is a warning of potential effects of implementation not a counter-argument. 4) DQ is a game which has its wierd or extreme effects justified through magic. Quickness is one of the more extreme effects. It is currently perceived as magical. If Quickness was introduced into the game now rather than in DQ 1, most people's initial reaction would be "its a spell - what college should have it - or is it too tough?". It walks like a duck, looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck - or howver the quote goes. Its a duck - or a magical effect. 5) Conversion and the history of E&E's having quickness are not insurmountable problems - they are just a cost of change. For a change to be worthwhile, the sum of the (perceived) advantages need to substantially outweigh the sum of the (perceived) disadvantages. Change for its own sake is a disadvantage. Jim, I know you may disagree on some of these points, but this is "received wisdom" in any change-management situation, such as business or process restructuring, or even IT, though the techies may believe otherwise. I hope that this explains the process reasons that I have for being cautious about your suggestion about turning Quickness into a skill for all. The emotional reasons I have sound more like "%^#$^%&&*^$#&&^%*(^%$^*^(%", but I pretend to be a rational animal. The GMing reasons I have go something like "Aarrgghh - my NPCs all have different ranks in quickness, and so do the party - OK, top of phase 5 for the first pulse - anyone with more than 37c initiative or with a two-handed weapon? - sure with rank 6 you can take an extra pass action, but you can't drink your potion while casting a spell - meanwhile my orc cuts down two of the mages before they see her coming." Andrew > -----Original Message----- > From: Jim Arona [SMTP:jimarona@ihug.co.nz] > Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2000 1:12 PM > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Subject: Re: Quickness > > Andrew Withy wrote: > > Perceived Disadvantages of approach #3: > 1) It's a survival skill that everyone will have to get to keep up > with each other. An arma race, in other words. > > Well, so what? What isn't an arm's race? That's the point of an > escalating system. > > > 2) It will (presumably) need to have multiple levels of effects, one > at each rank or two - other wise its just a one-off EP expenditure to act > twice a pulse. THis makes it much more complex. > > I don't know that we need to do it quite like that. There are lots > of ways of doing it. It isn't an objection to say that the way that it > might work is flawed, when we haven't determined how it will work. > > However, as a point for working out what one ought to avoid, this > isn't bad. > > 3) Fighters having 3/2 attacks per round, then > having 2 attacks per round at higher levels sounds like AD&D. Not that > AD&D is bad, its just a different sub-genre of game. > > This is no objection at all. This objection says that it's like > another game and therefore doesn't quite work in this one. Again ,the > other point remains valid. On top of which, I suggest that this is > actually a kind of distraction from the issue. I'm aware that Andrew has > said it's an emotional response. The point is, however, that that's all it > is. > > If it doesn't substantially move the issue forward, then it doesn't > do anything useful. > > 4) Its magic, damn it. The same argument as having purification as a > non-magical skill that lets fighters increase PS/EN/etc. > > I'm afraid this one flew so far over my head I didn't even hear the > wings flap...What does this mean? > > 5) Conversion could be messy. > > It's not like it's not messy, now, and in the middle of combat. The > only place that this is going to be messy is some time from now. This > point cannot be raised as frequently as it is, unless it's attended with > some other remark. Otherwise the game never moves forwards, it just > stagnates. > > The world is full of games that offer great new insights into > different ways to run games. Whenever a new process is raised as being > useful, the messiness of conversion is raised as a countering argument. > Every bloody time a coconut. This HAS to end. > > Yes, there is a point in making the observation, if it is attended > with some other comment. For example, you might say that conversion would > be messy, and the resulting improvement in the game would be minor. That, > at least, is an argument. > > Otherwise, the only point that is being made is that DQ is a game > that is frightened of confronting emerging developments in games. > > > 6) What does it have to do with E&Es any more? > > Well, the point could be just as easily made like this: What did it > have to do with E&Es in the first place? Again, this is no argument. > > The point I'm making is that it would not be a spell. It would be > some kind of proficiency open to everyone. If it's open to everyone, then > everyone has it, as well as E&Es. > > Thanks for the feedback, Andrew, but I just don't see that these > objections are that powerful a counter. > > > ------_=_NextPart_001_01BFF6AA.39DE8CE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Quickness

Sorry for being = opaque - I was indicating "standard" arguments rather than = making them completely stand-alone. Readers who understood (and agreed = or disagreed) my reasons last time, close this email now.

1) A compulsory = skill that everyone must purchase reduces character development, = differentiation, etc by being a compulsory spending sink for EP. If = neccessary, I'll find the quotes from Jim Arona in previous discussions = on this point. If a skill is necessary to have to survive (as I = perceive a quickness skill to be, even more than perception currently), = it limits options, apart from those who choose to be different by = ignoring the "sensible" option. This is a reason to = discourage everyone to have a quickness skill or spell.

2) While there are a = number of ways to implement it, most of them will either have a flat or = incremental effect. A flat effect will give little reason for ranking, = an incremental effect (e.g., varying FT cost, varying strike chance = penalty/bonus, varying duration, varying # of actions, varying choice = of action, varying IV, etc.) will need to be structured in a simple = manner, which limits the options available for balancing the skill. = This is a warning of difficulty of implementation not a = counter-argument.

3) The style and = genre of game available changes if (for example) a skilled fighter can = expect to kill four town guards in a single pulse without magic, as = opposed to the current DQ system. This is a warning of a potential = change of style/game balance. Game balance and game style need to be = reasonably managed (though open to change/evolution/flucuation) in a = multi-GM, multi-decade campaign. Again this is a warning of potential = effects of implementation not a counter-argument.

4) DQ is a game = which has its wierd or extreme effects justified through magic. = Quickness is one of the more extreme effects. It is currently perceived = as magical. If Quickness was introduced into the game now rather than = in DQ 1, most people's initial reaction would be "its a spell - = what college should have it - or is it too tough?". It walks like = a duck, looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck - or howver the quote = goes. Its a duck - or a magical effect.

5) Conversion and = the history of E&E's having quickness are not insurmountable = problems - they are just a cost of change. For a change to be = worthwhile, the sum of the (perceived) advantages need to substantially = outweigh the sum of the (perceived) disadvantages. Change for its own = sake is a disadvantage. Jim, I know you may disagree on some of these = points, but this is "received wisdom" in any = change-management situation, such as business or process restructuring, = or even IT, though the techies may believe otherwise.

I hope that this = explains the process reasons that I have for being cautious about your = suggestion about turning Quickness into a skill for all.

The emotional = reasons I have sound more like = "%^#$^%&&*^$#&&^%*(^%$^*^(%", but I pretend = to be a rational animal.

The GMing reasons I = have go something like "Aarrgghh - my NPCs all have different = ranks in quickness, and so do the party - OK, top of phase 5 for the = first pulse - anyone with more than 37c initiative or with a two-handed = weapon? - sure with rank 6 you can take an extra pass action, but you = can't drink your potion while casting a spell - meanwhile my orc cuts = down two of the mages before they see her coming."

Andrew

    -----Original Message-----
    From:   Jim Arona [SMTP:jimarona@ihug.co.nz]
    Sent:   Wednesday, July 26, 2000 1:12 PM
    To:     dq@dq.sf.org.nz
    Subject:       = Re: Quickness

      Andrew Withy wrote:
      =A0
      Perceived = Disadvantages of approach #3:
      1) It's a = survival skill that everyone will have to get to keep up with each = other. An arma race, in other words.=20

      Well, so what? What = isn't an arm's race? That's the point of an escalating system.=20


      2) It will = (presumably) need to have multiple levels of effects, one at each rank = or two - other wise its just a one-off EP expenditure to act twice a = pulse. THis makes it much more complex.

      I don't know that we = need to do it quite like that. There are lots of ways of doing it. It = isn't an objection to say that the way that it might work is flawed, = when we haven't determined how it will work.

      However, as a point = for working out what one ought to avoid, this isn't bad.=A0

      3) = <emotional perception>Fighters having 3/2 attacks per round, then = having 2 attacks per round at higher levels sounds like AD&D. Not = that AD&D is bad, its just a different sub-genre of = game.

      This is no objection = at all. This objection says that it's like another game and therefore = doesn't quite work in this one. Again ,the other point remains valid. = On top of which, I suggest that this is actually a kind of distraction = from the issue. I'm aware that Andrew has said it's an emotional = response. The point is, however, that that's all it is.

      If it doesn't substantially move the = issue forward, then it doesn't do anything useful.

      4) Its = magic, damn it. The same argument as having purification as a = non-magical skill that lets fighters increase PS/EN/etc.

      I'm afraid this one = flew so far over my head I didn't even hear the wings flap...What does = this mean?

      5) = Conversion could be messy. =

      It's not like it's not messy, now, = and in the middle of combat. The only place that this is going to be = messy is some time from now. This point cannot be raised as frequently = as it is, unless it's attended with some other remark. Otherwise the = game never moves forwards, it just stagnates.

      The world is full of games that offer = great new insights into different ways to run games. Whenever a new = process is raised as being useful, the messiness of conversion is = raised as a countering argument. Every bloody time a coconut. This HAS = to end.=A0

      Yes, there is a point in making the = observation, if it is attended with some other comment. For example, = you might say that conversion would be messy, and the resulting = improvement in the game would be minor. That, at least, is an = argument.=A0

      Otherwise, the only point that is = being made is that DQ is a game that is frightened of confronting = emerging developments in games. =A0


      6) What does it have = to do with E&Es any more?=20

      Well, the point could be just as easily made = like this: What did it have to do with E&Es in the first place? = Again, this is no argument.=A0

      The point I'm making is that it would not be a = spell. It would be some kind of proficiency open to everyone. If it's = open to everyone, then everyone has it, as well as E&Es.

      Thanks for the feedback, Andrew, but I = just don't see that these objections are that powerful a = counter.

      =A0

------_=_NextPart_001_01BFF6AA.39DE8CE0-- -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jul 26 15:29:04 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id PAA26501; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 15:28:08 +1200 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id PAA26498 for ; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 15:28:04 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p201-tnt6.akl.ihug.co.nz [216.100.154.201]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id PAA00763 for ; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 15:24:37 +1200 Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 15:20:32 +1200 Message-ID: <01bff6b0$74b725a0$c99a64d8@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0032_01BFF715.09EC05A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Quickness From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0032_01BFF715.09EC05A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 1) A compulsory skill that everyone must purchase reduces character = development, differentiation, etc by being a compulsory spending sink = for EP. If neccessary, I'll find the quotes from Jim Arona in previous = discussions on this point. If a skill is necessary to have to survive = (as I perceive a quickness skill to be, even more than perception = currently), it limits options, apart from those who choose to be = different by ignoring the "sensible" option. This is a reason to = discourage everyone to have a quickness skill or spell. =20 I agree. It woud be nice if it were a possibility. But, observably, = the fact is that you need Quickness. Yes, there are games that have been = run without a single Quickness being cast, but it would be extremely = rare. =20 My point, then, is that there's not much point in making people = different, if they're only going to get their hands on the stuff, = anyway.=20 =20 As far as I can see, at medium to high levels, players start taking = invested Quicknesses of Ranks 10 or higher. My point is that seeing as = just about every party has the spell in one form or another, then it = might as well be generally available. We're not making characters = different by disallowing them access to being able to cast the spell.=20 =20 =20 =20 2) While there are a number of ways to implement it, most of them = will either have a flat or incremental effect. A flat effect will give = little reason for ranking, an incremental effect (e.g., varying FT cost, = varying strike chance penalty/bonus, varying duration, varying # of = actions, varying choice of action, varying IV, etc.) will need to be = structured in a simple manner, which limits the options available for = balancing the skill. This is a warning of difficulty of implementation = not a counter-argument. =20 That's an unknowable. It might be a simple comparative thing. If the = value of x is y, and the value of a is b, then one or the other of them = get two actions.=20 =20 Or it might be factored in some other fashion. =20 =20 =20 3) The style and genre of game available changes if (for example) a = skilled fighter can expect to kill four town guards in a single pulse = without magic, as opposed to the current DQ system. This is a warning of = a potential change of style/game balance. Game balance and game style = need to be reasonably managed (though open to = change/evolution/flucuation) in a multi-GM, multi-decade campaign. Again = this is a warning of potential effects of implementation not a = counter-argument. =20 You are telling me that Blitzkrieg couldn't kill four guards in a = single pulse? Or Turf? I've seen Turf kill two human like entities with = a single blow, let alone a multi-hex strike. The fact is that whether or = not we percieve the genre to be that way or not, it has already changed. =20 In fact, I can't remember a time when this sort of thing wasn't an = option. I remember Von Kroft tearing apart several humans armoured in = chain. Admittedly, they fell in threes, but I think that might have had = more to do with his reach,than anything else. =20 Shere Khan was known to do similar kinds of things. I understand = Kree can kill as many as 10 in a single round...I don't know the details = of that one, but that's what has been reported to me. =20 =20 =20 4) DQ is a game which has its wierd or extreme effects justified = through magic. Quickness is one of the more extreme effects. It is = currently perceived as magical. If Quickness was introduced into the = game now rather than in DQ 1, most people's initial reaction would be = "its a spell - what college should have it - or is it too tough?". It = walks like a duck, looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck - or howver = the quote goes. Its a duck - or a magical effect. =20 That's fine, Andrew. Then we don't suggest that it's weird. We = simply say that this is the result of experience, development, combat = awareness. It's NOT an argument.=20 =20 You seem to arguing from the rationalisation to the effect. I think = this is a mistake. We can always change it so that the thing it walks = like, looks like, and quacks like is in fact, some completely other type = of bird. =20 It's a drake - or a mundane effect. =20 5) Conversion and the history of E&E's having quickness are not = insurmountable problems - they are just a cost of change. For a change = to be worthwhile, the sum of the (perceived) advantages need to = substantially outweigh the sum of the (perceived) disadvantages. Change = for its own sake is a disadvantage.=20 =20 Agreed. Change for its own sake is a disadvantage. That isn't what = is being proposed. It is being proposed, because the spell has a = flattening effect on the game. It is BORING. =20 We're not going to get rid of the effect, it's too much a part of = the game. And, to be honest, it's probably necessary. So, let's change = it. Otherwise, we're stuck with something that is just damned stupid. =20 Jim, I know you may disagree on some of these points, but this is = "received wisdom" in any change-management situation, such as business = or process restructuring, or even IT, though the techies may believe = otherwise. =20 I have seen this kind of issue raised before. Let us consider what = kind of endeavour the Guild is.=20 =20 Is it a business? I see no-one making any money at it, do you? =20 Is it a process? Nope, doesn't strike me as that, either. =20 Is it a computer? Some people treat the game engine that way, I = suppose. But, no, it's not that. =20 What is it, then? It's a game, for God's sake. It's a variety of = entertainment. It's art. Change comes to art. In large part, that's what = art is. If we aren't moving forward and addressing the changes around = us, then we are in danger of codifying our game so that it's completely = stapled down. If this is the case, why don't we just say something like = 'Blue can never be a foreground colour', and be done with it. =20 I hope that this explains the process reasons that I have for being = cautious about your suggestion about turning Quickness into a skill for = all. =20 And, I value the feedback.=20 =20 Not that I agree with it, mind you. =20 The GMing reasons I have go something like "Aarrgghh - my NPCs all = have different ranks in quickness, and so do the party - OK, top of = phase 5 for the first pulse - anyone with more than 37c initiative or = with a two-handed weapon? - sure with rank 6 you can take an extra pass = action, but you can't drink your potion while casting a spell - = meanwhile my orc cuts down two of the mages before they see her coming." =20 This is another kind of issue, and while I think it is important to = note it as a warning, I don't think it should stop us from examining it. = Otherwise, we may miss an opportunity out of the fear that it might be = too complex =20 Yes, possibly this option would be too complex to administer. But, = unless we look in this direction, we may never develop a means of = dealing with it. =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0032_01BFF715.09EC05A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Quickness

1) A=20 compulsory skill that everyone must purchase reduces character = development,=20 differentiation, etc by being a compulsory spending sink for EP. If=20 neccessary, I'll find the quotes from Jim Arona in previous = discussions on=20 this point. If a skill is necessary to have to survive (as I = perceive a=20 quickness skill to be, even more than perception currently), it = limits=20 options, apart from those who choose to be different by ignoring the = "sensible" option. This is a reason to discourage everyone = to have=20 a quickness skill or spell.

I = agree. It woud be=20 nice if it were a possibility. But, observably, the fact is that you = need=20 Quickness. Yes, there are games that have been run without a single=20 Quickness being cast, but it would be extremely rare.

My point, = then, is that=20 there's not much point in making people different, if they're only = going to=20 get their hands on the stuff, anyway.

As far as I can see, at medium to high levels, = players start=20 taking invested Quicknesses of Ranks 10 or higher. My point is that = seeing=20 as just about every party has the spell in one form or another, then = it=20 might as well be generally available. We're not making characters = different=20 by disallowing them access to being able to cast the spell.=20  

 

2) While=20 there are a number of ways to implement it, most of them will either = have a=20 flat or incremental effect. A flat effect will give little reason = for=20 ranking, an incremental effect (e.g., varying FT cost, varying = strike chance=20 penalty/bonus, varying duration, varying # of actions, varying = choice of=20 action, varying IV, etc.) will need to be structured in a simple = manner,=20 which limits the options available for balancing the skill. This is = a=20 warning of difficulty of implementation not a=20 counter-argument.

That's an=20 unknowable. It might be a simple comparative thing. If the value of = x is y,=20 and the value of a is b, then one or the other of them get two = actions.=20

Or it might = be factored in=20 some other fashion.

 

3) The=20 style and genre of game available changes if (for example) a skilled = fighter=20 can expect to kill four town guards in a single pulse without magic, = as=20 opposed to the current DQ system. This is a warning of a potential = change of=20 style/game balance. Game balance and game style need to be = reasonably=20 managed (though open to change/evolution/flucuation) in a multi-GM,=20 multi-decade campaign. Again this is a warning of potential effects = of=20 implementation not a counter-argument.

You are telling me that Blitzkrieg = couldn't=20 kill four guards in a single pulse? Or Turf? I've seen Turf kill two = human=20 like entities with a single blow, let alone a multi-hex strike. The = fact is=20 that whether or not we percieve the genre to be that way or not, it = has=20 already changed.

In fact, I = can't remember=20 a time when this sort of thing wasn't an option. I remember Von = Kroft=20 tearing apart several humans armoured in chain. Admittedly, they = fell in=20 threes, but I think that might have had more to do with his = reach,than=20 anything else.

Shere Khan was known to do similar kinds of = things. I=20 understand Kree can kill as many as 10 in a single round...I don't = know the=20 details of that one, but that's what has been reported to=20 me. 

 

4) DQ is=20 a game which has its wierd or extreme effects justified through = magic.=20 Quickness is one of the more extreme effects. It is currently = perceived as=20 magical. If Quickness was introduced into the game now rather than = in DQ 1,=20 most people's initial reaction would be "its a spell - what = college=20 should have it - or is it too tough?". It walks like a duck, = looks like=20 a duck, and quacks like a duck - or howver the quote goes. Its a = duck - or a=20 magical effect.

That's fine,=20 Andrew. Then we don't suggest that it's weird. We simply say that = this is=20 the result of experience, development, combat awareness. It's NOT an = argument.

You seem to = arguing from=20 the rationalisation to the effect. I think this is a mistake. We can = always=20 change it so that the thing it walks like, looks like, and quacks = like is in=20 fact, some completely other type of bird.

It's a drake - or a mundane = effect. 

5)=20 Conversion and the history of E&E's having quickness are not=20 insurmountable problems - they are just a cost of change. For a = change to be=20 worthwhile, the sum of the (perceived) advantages need to = substantially=20 outweigh the sum of the (perceived) disadvantages. Change for its = own sake=20 is a disadvantage.

Agreed.=20 Change for its own sake is a disadvantage. That isn't what is being=20 proposed. It is being proposed, because the spell has a flattening = effect on=20 the game. It is BORING.

We're not = going to get rid=20 of the effect, it's too much a part of the game. And, to be honest, = it's=20 probably necessary. So, let's change it. Otherwise, we're stuck with = something that is just damned stupid.

Jim, I=20 know you may disagree on some of these points, but this is = "received=20 wisdom" in any change-management situation, such as business or = process=20 restructuring, or even IT, though the techies may believe=20 otherwise.

I = have seen this=20 kind of issue raised before. Let us consider what kind of endeavour = the=20 Guild is.

Is it a = business? I see=20 no-one making any money at it, do you?

Is it a process? Nope, doesn't strike me as that,=20 either. 

Is it a computer? Some people treat the game = engine that=20 way, I suppose. But, no, it's not that. 

What is it, then? It's a game, for God's sake. = It's a=20 variety of entertainment. It's art. Change comes to art. In large = part,=20 that's what art is. If we aren't moving forward and addressing the = changes=20 around us, then we are in danger of codifying our game so that it's=20 completely stapled down.  If this is the case, why don't we = just say=20 something like 'Blue can never be a foreground colour', and be done = with=20 it. 

I hope=20 that this explains the process reasons that I have for being = cautious about=20 your suggestion about turning Quickness into a skill for=20 all.

And, I value the feedback. =

Not that I = agree with it,=20 mind you.

The GMing=20 reasons I have go something like "Aarrgghh - my NPCs all have = different=20 ranks in quickness, and so do the party - OK, top of phase 5 for the = first=20 pulse - anyone with more than 37c initiative or with a two-handed = weapon? -=20 sure with rank 6 you can take an extra pass action, but you can't = drink your=20 potion while casting a spell - meanwhile my orc cuts down two of the = mages=20 before they see her coming."

This is another kind of issue, and = while I=20 think it is important to note it as a warning, I don't think it = should stop=20 us from examining it. Otherwise, we may miss an opportunity out of = the fear=20 that it might be too complex

Yes, = possibly this option=20 would be too complex to administer. But, unless we look in this = direction,=20 we may never develop a means of dealing with=20 it.

------=_NextPart_000_0032_01BFF715.09EC05A0-- -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jul 26 17:43:50 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id RAA27751; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 17:40:11 +1200 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (smtp2.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.8]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id RAA27728 for ; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 17:40:01 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p158-tnt6.akl.ihug.co.nz [216.100.154.158]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id RAA08860 for ; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 17:36:34 +1200 Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 17:32:25 +1200 Message-ID: <01bff6c2$e176a280$9e9a64d8@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0030_01BFF727.76AB8280" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Subscription From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0030_01BFF727.76AB8280 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable How do you subscribe to this list again? ------=_NextPart_000_0030_01BFF727.76AB8280 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Quickness
How do you subscribe to this list=20 again?
------=_NextPart_000_0030_01BFF727.76AB8280-- -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jul 26 19:58:45 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id TAA28695; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 19:54:27 +1200 Received: from qedweb.qed.co.nz ([203.97.23.140] (may be forged)) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id TAA28692 for ; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 19:54:23 +1200 Received: by localhost with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 19:50:06 +1200 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 19:50:05 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: RE: Quickness From: Stephen Martin To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Summary: Combat would be a lot simpler, quicker (real time), and easier without quickness. However it would be less fun from a player perspective. Ideal Solution: Keeping quickness in the game but somehow encouraging it to be used occasionally rather than all the time. Proviso: That having it as part of your college is an advantage not a penalty (in mandatory EP spending, FT spent on adventure, etc.) A ritual of quickness anyone...? Detailed rambling... 1) Quickness helps you feel more heroic, you can cast a spell in a single pulse, or cut someone down in 1 to 2 pulses as opposed to 3-4 pulses (ignoring the high level blending machines). It's more satisfying to be quickened and win a fight outnumbered 2:1 than to be normal speed and win a fight with even numbers. Though a fight with fewer opponents is faster to play and easier for the GM. 2) Currently not having quickness on a medium to high game is lethal. It is such an assumed part of the campaign that the balance of an adventure is often thrown out of kilter if the party isn't quickened. I'm in support of altering quickness to improve the game but have no specific idea how. Cheers, Stephen. -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jul 26 22:44:04 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id WAA29858; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 22:41:10 +1200 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id WAA29855 for ; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 22:41:07 +1200 Received: from writer (203-109-144-43.ihug.net [203.109.144.43]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id WAA15545 for ; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 22:37:33 +1200 Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 22:37:33 +1200 Message-Id: <200007261037.WAA15545@smtp1.ihug.co.nz> X-Sender: fiona@pop.ihug.co.nz X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: Quickness From: "Fiona M.M.Cole" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz At 13:56 26/07/00 +1200, you wrote: >Option 3: >The spell becomes a skill or proficiency that anyone can learn: what???? >Advantages: Easy to administer. Everyone will have the proficiency, so >everyone will know what their Quickness value is. ack...gasp.... >Because the effect is not 'magical' per se, and presumably a measure of >experience, it means that as the players progress to higher levels, then >they will naturally encounter NPCs with enhanced initiatives. >Disadvantages: I can't think of any. Mind you, it just occurred to me. >Anyone? Are you completely mad? Of course that may not be a disadvantage Fi -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jul 26 22:44:38 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id WAA29870; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 22:43:24 +1200 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id WAA29867 for ; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 22:43:21 +1200 Received: from writer (203-109-144-43.ihug.net [203.109.144.43]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id WAA15886 for ; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 22:39:47 +1200 Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 22:39:47 +1200 Message-Id: <200007261039.WAA15886@smtp1.ihug.co.nz> X-Sender: fiona@pop.ihug.co.nz X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: Quickness From: "Fiona M.M.Cole" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz My delicate sensibilities are offended Fi (but you can do what you like to all the other colleges, sensibilities aren't twitched at all by that prospect) >discussing that at this stage is premature. > >Warning to DQ traditionalists - this paragraph may offend your delicate >sensibilities >>>> Another way to change this, and many other, >"overpowered" spells in DQ is to change the fundamental base mechanic that >a spell costs either one FT to cast (general) or two FT (special) and its >effectiveness is often (but not always) totally dependant on rank. I have >always had problems with the arguement that you can "balance" a spell >simply by tinkering with the EM or base chance or $$$ cost to buy it. By >way of example - in this instance you could make quickness cost 2 FT plus >say 2 FT per additional target. For those "nasty" damage spells we are >forever watering down you could again make the "dmg out" bare some relation > -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jul 26 22:45:09 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id WAA29826; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 22:39:26 +1200 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id WAA29823 for ; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 22:39:22 +1200 Received: from writer (203-109-144-43.ihug.net [203.109.144.43]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id WAA15346 for ; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 22:35:49 +1200 Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 22:35:49 +1200 Message-Id: <200007261035.WAA15346@smtp1.ihug.co.nz> X-Sender: fiona@pop.ihug.co.nz X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Quickness From: "Fiona M.M.Cole" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Keep your sticky, envious non E and E paws off it. Yes it's a pain in the bum for GM's to keep track of. It's rather alarming for E and E's when they discover the Undead cannot be slept. It's our big spell.It's the one they want us for when we have nothing else going for us (obviously I'm referring to all those other E and E's, not moi...Amaranth perhaps) Leave it alone, you wicked tinkerers or suffer I don't know what but you won't like it Silken Lady Dark (and of possibly more relevance to GM's...Fi ) At 19:50 26/07/00 +1200, you wrote: >Summary: Combat would be a lot simpler, quicker (real time), and easier >without quickness. However it would be less fun from a player perspective. > >Ideal Solution: Keeping quickness in the game but somehow encouraging it to >be used occasionally rather than all the time. >Proviso: That having it as part of your college is an advantage not a >penalty (in mandatory EP spending, FT spent on adventure, etc.) > >A ritual of quickness anyone...? > >Detailed rambling... >1) Quickness helps you feel more heroic, you can cast a spell in a single >pulse, or cut someone down in 1 to 2 pulses as opposed to 3-4 pulses >(ignoring the high level blending machines). It's more satisfying to be >quickened and win a fight outnumbered 2:1 than to be normal speed and win a >fight with even numbers. Though a fight with fewer opponents is faster to >play and easier for the GM. > >2) Currently not having quickness on a medium to high game is lethal. It is >such an assumed part of the campaign that the balance of an adventure is >often thrown out of kilter if the party isn't quickened. > >I'm in support of altering quickness to improve the game but have no >specific idea how. > >Cheers, Stephen. > > >-- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- > > -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jul 26 22:58:43 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id WAA29961; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 22:50:02 +1200 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id WAA29955 for ; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 22:49:58 +1200 Received: from writer (203-109-144-43.ihug.net [203.109.144.43]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id WAA16436 for ; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 22:46:25 +1200 Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 22:46:25 +1200 Message-Id: <200007261046.WAA16436@smtp1.ihug.co.nz> X-Sender: fiona@pop.ihug.co.nz X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: Quickness From: "Fiona M.M.Cole" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > >4) DQ is a game which has its wierd or extreme effects justified through >magic. Quickness is one of the more extreme effects. It is currently >perceived as magical. If Quickness was introduced into the game now rather >than in DQ 1, most people's initial reaction would be "its a spell - what >college should have it - or is it too tough?". It walks like a duck, looks >like a duck, and quacks like a duck - or howver the quote goes. Its a duck - >or a magical effect. > Yes Andrew but it's my duck, my favourite duck and I like it just the way it is I realise my objections are entirely without logical argument or considered erudite opinion but I give not a fig. Leave my duck alone and turn your attentions to Initiative which is a) far more confusing and annoying to calculate and slows down the flow of combat while assorted military scientists work out who is the actual leader and if their extra bonus magical epaulets let their party go first b) A subject I don't care about at all Fi -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jul 26 23:13:47 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id XAA30107; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 23:09:41 +1200 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id XAA30104 for ; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 23:09:38 +1200 Received: from writer (203-109-144-43.ihug.net [203.109.144.43]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id XAA18023 for ; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 23:06:04 +1200 Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 23:06:04 +1200 Message-Id: <200007261106.XAA18023@smtp1.ihug.co.nz> X-Sender: fiona@pop.ihug.co.nz X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: One last thing or three on Quickness From: "Fiona M.M.Cole" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Ok I accept now that the best place to start reading an argument is not from the last email backwards. I admit I am not a current GM I am prepared to give due credit to those who have obviously devoted time and thought to this issue (No, really I am) Now I have read it all however I find myself back to .. and I quote, from Jim I think... the same bloody old coconut, actually bunch of bloody old coconuts. Quickness is the essential core spell of E and E's It is very powerful and can change the whole course of a combat. Yippee!!! Without it, would E and E's be wanted for their Wizard Eye? their Levitate? their Sleep? Even the awesome and terrifying Web of Entanglement? I think not It works. I love it. I ask you leave it alone Fi -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jul 26 23:14:21 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id XAA30064; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 23:01:00 +1200 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id XAA30061 for ; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 23:00:56 +1200 Received: from writer (203-109-144-43.ihug.net [203.109.144.43]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id WAA17327 for ; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 22:57:23 +1200 Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 22:57:23 +1200 Message-Id: <200007261057.WAA17327@smtp1.ihug.co.nz> X-Sender: fiona@pop.ihug.co.nz X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: Quickness From: "Fiona M.M.Cole" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > > 5) Conversion and the history of E&E's having quickness are not insurmountable problems - they are just a cost of change. For a change to be worthwhile, the sum of the (perceived) advantages need to substantially outweigh the sum of the (perceived) disadvantages. Change for its own sake is a disadvantage. > > Agreed. Change for its own sake is a disadvantage. That isn't what is being proposed. It is being proposed, because the spell has a flattening effect on the game. It is BORING. ack ack gasp choke (It's hard to splutter in incoherent rage effectively via text) You just don't understand. Quickness IS being an E and E. Apart from anything else it lets us run like the weaselly little rats we are when the fighters and blasters all get flattened and the Balrog looks about to see who is left. To me DQ is about role playing in a group.That means I depend on nice absorbent fighters to get whacked and nice incendiary devices like Fire mages to blast while I assist with Quickness and Slowness and all the other useful but on their own completely feeble spells I have. They need me.I need them Otherwise I would just go out and whack Balrogs on my own using my excellent fighting skills and nice blasty spells I picked up at the DQ-O-Mat If there actually is a flattening problem with invested Quicknesses being freely available (and I am not a current Gm so I do not know if this is true) surely a simple solution suggests itself. Make Quickness unable to be invested. I imagine E and E's throughout Alusia would be thrilled to bits Fi -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Jul 26 23:58:41 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id XAA30457; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 23:57:13 +1200 Received: from smtp4.ihug.co.nz (smtp4.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.5]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id XAA30453 for ; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 23:57:09 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p104-tnt6.akl.ihug.co.nz [216.100.154.104]) by smtp4.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id XAA06902 for ; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 23:53:32 +1200 Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 23:49:18 +1200 Message-ID: <01bff6f7$87db1460$689a64d8@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: One last thing or three on Quickness From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fiona Cole wrote: >I am prepared to give due credit to those who have obviously devoted time >and thought to this issue >(No, really I am) > >Now I have read it all however I find myself back to .. and I quote, from >Jim I think... the same bloody old coconut, actually bunch of bloody old >coconuts. > >Quickness is the essential core spell of E and E's There are other spells in the E&E list. Wizard's Eye, Location, Telekinesis. > >It is very powerful and can change the whole course of a combat. Yippee!!! > >Without it, would E and E's be wanted for their Wizard Eye? their Levitate? >their Sleep? Even the awesome and terrifying Web of Entanglement? >I think not Not an argument, Fiona. There are other spells that make E&E pretty bloody useful. Enchanted Armour. Open Lock. Enhancing Enchantment. Ritual of Enchantment. And so on. >It works. I love it. I ask you leave it alone It doesn't work. I dislike what it does. I ask you to fiddle with it until it provides us with a game that is interesting to play and DM. These arguments are not DM arguments, they are player arguments. They are not inspired by an interest in the game, they are inspired by an interest in keeping a particular character happy. -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Jul 27 00:13:44 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id AAA30585; Thu, 27 Jul 2000 00:12:04 +1200 Received: from smtp4.ihug.co.nz (smtp4.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.5]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id AAA30579 for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2000 00:11:52 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p104-tnt6.akl.ihug.co.nz [216.100.154.104]) by smtp4.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id AAA07601 for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2000 00:08:15 +1200 Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 00:04:02 +1200 Message-ID: <01bff6f9$96cefb60$689a64d8@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Quickness From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fiona Cole wrote: >You just don't understand. Quickness IS being an E and E. An individual character, or a group of characters may have Quickness as their focus. That shouldn't stop us from examining a better way of dealing with it. It's a fantasy to suggest that we should not consider a change because it would disarrange those characters. > >Apart from anything else it lets us run like the weaselly little rats we are >when the fighters and blasters all get flattened and the Balrog looks about >to see who is left. No, it doesn't. It lets the whole party run like weaselly little rats. My objection wouldn't be with the spell if it meant that only one or two members of an adventuring party were Quickened. The hassle is that they all are. > >To me DQ is about role playing in a group.That means I depend on nice >absorbent fighters to get whacked and nice incendiary devices like Fire >mages to blast while I assist with Quickness and Slowness and all the other >useful but on their own completely feeble spells I have. > >They need me.I need them This is SO personlised. Look, if you feel you need to have a particular use, learn Enhancing Enchantment. That's a pretty damned useful spell. Or Wizard's Eye. Or learn a skill that makes you invaluable. It may not even be necessary to make it a proficiency or something. But, let's, for God's sake, actually discuss the possibility, rather than breaking out into reflexive denial. That's just counterproductive. > >Otherwise I would just go out and whack Balrogs on my own using my excellent >fighting skills and nice blasty spells I picked up at the DQ-O-Mat As opposed to picking up Quickness spells at the DQ-O-Mat? What, exactly, are we exchanging here? >If there actually is a flattening problem with invested Quicknesses being >freely available (and I am not a current Gm so I do not know if this is >true) surely a simple solution suggests itself. > >Make Quickness unable to be invested. >I imagine E and E's throughout Alusia would be thrilled to bits Yes, possibly they would be a good idea. The happiness of E&E mages is not an argument for it, either, mind you. Which is not to say that it's not a useful point. Perhaps that is something we should consider. As far as Quickness is concerned, then at the medium to high level of the game, the frequency with which you see the wretched spell triggered is pretty daunting. And, deadening. -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Jul 27 09:43:42 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id JAA01356; Thu, 27 Jul 2000 09:42:48 +1200 Received: from defacto.peace.co.nz (fwuser@[202.14.141.233] (may be forged)) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id JAA01353 for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2000 09:42:44 +1200 Message-ID: <397F5A35.80AC768C@peace.com> Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 09:37:57 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Quickness From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Fiona Cole wrote: > >Make Quickness unable to be invested. Jim Arona wrote: > Yes, possibly they would be a good idea... Perhaps that is something we > should consider. So, as Option #5 (using Jim's original list): Option 5: Investment is removed from the storage options of Quickness. Advantages: Frequency of use is decreased as it will only be available to parties adventuring with an E&E A party's access to Quickness becomes more vulnerable; if the E&E is unavailable then no Quickness. Disadvantages: All of the current ones -- just less often Relative worth of having an E&E in a party rises, perhaps so much that they are considered essential, which could in turn have a "flattening" effect on college choice within the campaign. -- Jim has already nailed down most of the other problems with Quickness, I'd just add that my personal feeling is that it is a pain in the butt to GM because it breaks the combat rules rather badly, making combats harder to run. My preference would be that in addition to reducing its frequency of use (by whatever means), it were altered such that it no longer broke the Init sequence and actions rules. 'Course, if its effects were reduced from their current power then it may no longer be "a spell that MAKES players choose it " and some of the other problems would become moot. Cheers, Martin -- _/_/ Peace Software New Zealand Ltd Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com _/ Martin Dickson Fax : +64-9-373-0401 Analyst Phone: +64-9-373-0400 -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Jul 27 11:44:03 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id LAA02105; Thu, 27 Jul 2000 11:33:33 +1200 Received: from smtp4.ihug.co.nz (smtp4.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.5]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id LAA02102 for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2000 11:33:29 +1200 Received: from writer (203-109-144-43.ihug.net [203.109.144.43]) by smtp4.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id LAA09121 for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2000 11:29:38 +1200 Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 11:29:38 +1200 Message-Id: <200007262329.LAA09121@smtp4.ihug.co.nz> X-Sender: fiona@pop.ihug.co.nz X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: One last thing or three on Quickness From: "Fiona M.M.Cole" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > >These arguments are not DM arguments, they are player arguments. They are >not inspired by an interest in the game, they are inspired by an interest in >keeping a particular character happy. What's your point? Is DQ so the GM's can be happy? Fi -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Jul 27 12:13:52 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id MAA02355; Thu, 27 Jul 2000 12:05:02 +1200 Received: from kakapo.cs.auckland.ac.nz (kakapo.cs.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.34.10]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id MAA02351 for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2000 12:04:58 +1200 Received: from [130.216.108.110] (clare.cs.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.108.110]) by kakapo.cs.auckland.ac.nz (8.8.6/8.8.6/cs-master) with ESMTP id MAA31138 for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2000 12:01:06 +1200 (NZST) (sender clare@cs.auckland.ac.nz) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: clare@staffpop.cs.auckland.ac.nz Message-Id: Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 12:01:21 +1200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Subject: Re: One last thing or three on Quickness From: clare@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Clare West) To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > > > >These arguments are not DM arguments, they are player arguments. They are > >not inspired by an interest in the game, they are inspired by an interest in > >keeping a particular character happy. > >What's your point? > >Is DQ so the GM's can be happy? > >Fi To be fair Fi, Jim didn't say DQ was to get the GM's happy. He said that we should be inspired by an interest in the game as a whole, not in keeping one particular character happy. Personally I think Quickness could be better but is ok as it is. I don't feel completely convinced by the arguments so far that it really needs fixing. I do know that as a player I was much agrieved to go on an adventure with two mediumish E&Es and discover *neither* of them had quickness. It is certainly required at the upper levels of the game. Making it uninvestible certainly doesn't fix that problem IMHO - it will just mean those two mediumish E&Es will feel even more pressure to learn and rank the spell, and that every party will want an E&E. I don't much care for any of the other suggested solutions either - and I don't have a brilliant one of my own - so I'll go back to lurking. clare -- Clare West, Rm 111, Ext 8266 clare@cs.auckland.ac.nz -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Jul 27 12:43:51 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id MAA02659; Thu, 27 Jul 2000 12:39:49 +1200 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (smtp2.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.8]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id MAA02656 for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2000 12:39:44 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p171-tnt2.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.245.171]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id MAA14611 for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2000 12:35:50 +1200 Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 12:31:33 +1200 Message-ID: <01bff762$040734a0$abf56dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Player vs DM From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fiona Cole wrote: >What's your point? > >Is DQ so the GM's can be happy? >> >>These arguments are not DM arguments, they are player arguments. They are >>not inspired by an interest in the game, they are inspired by an interest in >>keeping a particular character happy. In a word, yes. Fiona raises an excellent issue, here, and one that probably needs to be aired. And, that is that the player and the DM approach any roleplaying game from different angles. A player's point of view is defined by their idea of their character's development, and what makes that fantasy individual special and fun. A DM's approach is defined by what makes the running of the game entertaining. Where a player might want something for their individual character, a DM must balance those things from the point of view of what makes for a good game. A player can enjoy some game artifact like Quickness, for example, and it can have a deleterious effect on the game. The DM, on the other hand, addresses the game engine. Individual DMs may be better or worse at determining what is good for the game, whereas this issue may not even be addressed by the player. The point is, however, that a DM will be approaching the game from a perspective that has, or ought to have, no odour of personal interest. Because the aim is to develop a game that is better. Not to provide a particular player with some degree of happiness. Role-playing games are a form of artistic endeavour. The balance of the game engine (the mechanics of how the game works) and the game world ( the environment that the game is played in) and the story (the progress of the players through the game world) are in the hands of the DM. The more naturally these elements map onto each other, the less difficult it is to sustain the enjoyment of story, genre and balance. The enjoyment of a player is important, because if a player cannot enjoy a game, then that is one less person playing the game. The enjoyment of the DM, however, is critical, because if the DM can't enjoy the game, then that is as many as six more people not playing the game. If a DM is forced by the exigencies of the environment and balance to create an factitious storyline, then it unnaturally forces the game. Some constraint is necessary to create a good story, but when the form is flawed, then it diminishes everyone's enjoyment. Which is a better poem? Old McDonald Had a Farm, or The Lovesong of J.Alfred Prufrock? Yet, the Lovesong breaks just about every poetic form that it alludes to. This is not to say that we are in danger of creating that degree of greatness with our role-playing, but, God, is there any harm in trying? -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Jul 27 13:13:45 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id NAA02850; Thu, 27 Jul 2000 13:00:34 +1200 Received: from mail.world-net.co.nz (mail.world-net.co.nz [203.96.119.27]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id NAA02847 for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2000 13:00:31 +1200 Received: from gorgox (pp2-114.world-net.co.nz [210.55.227.114]) by mail.world-net.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA00740 for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2000 12:56:22 +1200 Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 12:55:25 +1200 Message-ID: <000701bff765$5a3a7000$0100a0c0@gorgox> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Subject: RE: Quickness From: "Gordon Lewis" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: gordon@karakakat.co.nz Sorry if I am covering old ground ... We could say that- for anyone who has quickness on them it will take 1 FT per action to do anything active. That is "more than sitting on ones chuff contemplating the carnage going on around them". This may make any quickness addicts treat it as a privilage not a right. It may also reflect the nature of the spell. Cheers Gordon. http:/welcome.to/housegorgox/ -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Jul 27 13:43:35 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id NAA03125; Thu, 27 Jul 2000 13:41:42 +1200 Received: from mail.world-net.co.nz (mail.world-net.co.nz [203.96.119.27]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id NAA03122 for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2000 13:41:39 +1200 Received: from gorgox (pp2-114.world-net.co.nz [210.55.227.114]) by mail.world-net.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA04032 for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2000 13:37:29 +1200 Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 13:36:32 +1200 Message-ID: <000801bff76b$18a08e80$0100a0c0@gorgox> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Subject: RE: Quickness From: "Gordon Lewis" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: gordon@karakakat.co.nz Gordon Lewis wrote: >We could say that- for anyone who has quickness on them it will >take 1 FT per action to do anything active. That is "more than sitting on >ones >chuff contemplating the carnage going on around them". This may make any >quickness >addicts treat it as a privilage not a right. It may also reflect the nature >of the spell. Then Jim Wrote It does tend to apply pressure to a player to do nothing, though, which is a pretty boring state of affairs. In addition, you'd have to define what was meant by 'sitting on one's chuff'. Still... I Reply What I am getting at is the immediate cost of magic. If a spell makes you faster than you can ever be naturally, then, I believe, it should make you tired faster. My comment about 'chuff' is about not penalising characters who are thinking about what to do next. As to making players do nothing ... I don't think so. If a bunch of nasties is doing their level best to squish you - you are most likely to do something about it - even if it is to run away. This is true for normal and quicknessed folk alike. Cheers G. http://welcome.to/housegorgox/ -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Jul 27 13:58:35 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id NAA03207; Thu, 27 Jul 2000 13:50:17 +1200 Received: from mail.world-net.co.nz (mail.world-net.co.nz [203.96.119.27]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id NAA03204 for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2000 13:50:14 +1200 Received: from gorgox (pp2-114.world-net.co.nz [210.55.227.114]) by mail.world-net.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA04763 for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2000 13:46:04 +1200 Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 13:45:07 +1200 Message-ID: <000e01bff76c$4b8ca3a0$0100a0c0@gorgox> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Subject: RE: Quickness From: "Gordon Lewis" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: gordon@karakakat.co.nz Gordon Lewis wrote: >We could say that- for anyone who has quickness on them it will >take 1 FT per action to do anything active. That is "more than sitting on >ones >chuff contemplating the carnage going on around them". This may make any >quickness >addicts treat it as a privilage not a right. It may also reflect the nature >of the spell. Then Jim Wrote It does tend to apply pressure to a player to do nothing, though, which is a pretty boring state of affairs. In addition, you'd have to define what was meant by 'sitting on one's chuff'. Still... I Reply What I am getting at is the immediate cost of magic. If a spell makes you faster than you can ever be naturally, then, I believe, it should make you tired faster. My comment about 'chuff' is about not penalising characters who are thinking about what to do next. As to making players do nothing ... I don't think so. If a bunch of nasties is doing their level best to squish you - you are most likely to do something about it - even if it is to run away. This is true for normal and quicknessed folk alike. Cheers G. http://welcome.to/housegorgox/ -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Jul 27 14:28:44 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id OAA03529; Thu, 27 Jul 2000 14:24:52 +1200 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (smtp2.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.8]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id OAA03526 for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2000 14:24:49 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p171-tnt2.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.245.171]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id OAA02449 for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2000 14:20:52 +1200 Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 14:16:37 +1200 Message-ID: <01bff770$b1b525e0$abf56dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: DM style From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz I have been involved in a private exchange about the meaning of 'DM style'. We might talk about DMing in different lights, I suppose, but when we talk about style, it has a particular meaning. In the world of high fashion, Coco Chanel developed a style. Without going into the vagaries of it, the important issue about her style was that it was an idea or a way of dressing that was not limited by a season or two. It could exceed the boundaries of its period and have an impact on other seasons. When we talk about DM style, then we are talking about what a DM brings to the game that makes their game individual and interesting. The issue that was raised was that a particular individual's style was to run the game by 'using the constraints of the game to express themself'. Rules constraint is as necessary as air to breath if we are to have a game at all. It is essential that the DM and the players have some idea of what is going on. But, we should never deceive ourselves into thinking that rules serve no other purpose than provide for a shared experience of the world. Rules provide us with a set of shared understandings about what is going on in the world. They let the DM and the player tell each other how the world works, quickly and efficiently. But that's all. Roleplaying games are changing and evolving structures. There are games, now, that involve players in a variety of different kinds of interactions. Most games don't offer much value to a character whose primary focus is performance art. For example, how powerful is the Troubadour skill? Not very, really, when you compare it with Healer and Ranger and so on. On the other hand, a Troubadour in EarthDawn is an astoundingly useful character to have around, and tough as iron nails. They're like travelling with an E&E mage in the party. You can adventure without one, but it makes your life one hell of a lot more pleasant if you don't. This is because there is a special are of the rules devoted to something called 'social magic'. It has a particular effect on the game, and it has created a different kind of story. Players chase social magic, in EarthDawn. White Wolf role-playing has created an international trend toward story-telling, over and beyond the clever execution of a character's abilities. These examples serve to illustrate that games are changing around us, whether or not we are prepared to accept it. Even if there weren't games out there that were changing the face of the games that we know, there would be pressure for change from within our own game. People are animals that seek to be entertained, and it is unavoidable that there will be some change to the medium in which we play. I mean, would you want to sing 'Old McDonald Had a Farm' every time you had to sing a song? People crave new experiences. At the same time, the resist them. This is not necessarily true on an individual basis, but it certainly is true, en masse. My thesis, here, is that to have a DM style, you need to be adding to the sum of the experience of roleplaying, and to do that you may have to alter the rules. (This is aside from occasionally suspending a rule where it doesn't make sense for it to work. We have all seen occasions where a player was in a situation where the application of a rule would have been ridiculous for one reason or another.) In large part, style springs from the way a DM considers the world to work. One cannot slavishly apply the rules. Well, I suppose you could, but it wouldn't be much fun to DM, and computers do it so much better. Our apprehension of the way the genre works is what makes for an interesting game experience. Story telling, whether it be novel-writing, or drama or even music, is the art of balancing the expectable with the uncertain. One of the reasons that we use dice to resolve conflicts is that it reflects the expectation of the base chance against the uncertainty of the die roll. It is, however, not the only kind of uncertainty generator around. In fact, it's not even very old. In a whodunnit, the writer will lead the reader away from the culprit, using red herrings. But the variety of story that most expresses the genre that we play in is something like Star Wars. And, there, one of the uncertainties that the players are drawn towards is finding out how the world works, whether it be the workings of the Force, to the machinations of the Council. Whenever a player enters a DM's game for the first time, they must inevitably try to discover the way that world works. That is part of the pleasure of playing. And, that means that penetrating how a particular DM runs things is something where expectation is in conflict with uncertainty. And, the reason is that in a role-playing game, all of the rules are written down on a piece of paper somewhere. In the real world, we don't know how the universe actually works. Sometimes things don't work the way we expected. Sometimes, people spontaneously combust. The rules need to be merely guidelines. They don't fullfil the same kind of role as the three laws of thermodynamics. Therefore, there is a pressure on a DM to actively counter some rules, if only to create a more interesting game. 'Player shock' is a casualty of that process. It is, in fact, essential. If the players aren't exposed to variety, then their boundaries aren't being expanded. They remain the same, with the exception that they have xp to take home and make themselves better at the things that they could already do. How interesting is the game if every character is pretty much the same? Yes, it is possible to have variations between characters. You might have a frivolous, entertaining Necromancer for example, and a severe and grim Illusionist. But, there is a limit to the range of characters that is actually available. Beyond a certain point, this kind of individuation becomes artificial and constrained. In an ideal world, every character would be different in some way. Preferably, in several ways. Every character would have something or a combi nation of somethings that few other people could do. And, that can't be done under the current system. Or, in fact, under any system. Because it is not the system that is in critical need of development, here. Sure, it's got some pretty nasty bugs in it. But the body of players and DMs are pretty au fait with statistics and numbers and crap like that. What isn't being developed is the pursuit of the art of role-playing. And, it won't be developed until people actually make an effort to develop an actual style. -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Jul 27 14:58:47 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id OAA03763; Thu, 27 Jul 2000 14:51:25 +1200 Received: from defacto.peace.co.nz (fwuser@[202.14.141.233] (may be forged)) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id OAA03760 for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2000 14:51:21 +1200 Message-ID: <397FA276.E4BC6E38@peace.com> Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 14:46:14 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Player vs DM From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Jim Arona wrote: > Which is a better poem? Old McDonald Had a Farm, or The Lovesong of J.Alfred Prufrock? > Eliot's poem is dense with lyrical imagery.. but if you were 4 years old it would be completely opaque. Besides, Old MacDonald has a tune you can sing along with, and you get to make barnyard noises. Horses for courses, right tool for the job, and similar cliches. Art, like beauty is very much in the eye of the beholder. If I was to hold a gallery opening, invite the beautiful people, hang squares of blue canvas on the walls and run around in a bright orange leotard poking them with a sharp stick -- would it be art? Perhaps I have a distorted view of art and unreasonably consider it uncommonly dull. > Role-playing games are a form of artistic endeavour. The balance of the > game engine (the mechanics of how the game works) and the game world ( the > environment that the game is played in) and the story (the progress of the > players through the game world) are in the hands of the DM. The more > naturally these elements map onto each other, the less difficult it is to > sustain the enjoyment of story, genre and balance. Absolutely... and wholeheartedly. RPGs are an artistic endeavour, and something like movie-making perhaps, they are both art and craft. The mechanics of making the movie are craft, the actors pursue their craft (and apsire to art), and the end product is (hopefully) art, and greater than the sum of the parts. What is the role of an RPG? To entertain? To challenge? Many roleplayers play to be entertained. Which would make better entertainment; an RPG based on Indiana Jones, or one based on Angela's Ashes? Which would be better art? > The enjoyment of a player is important, because if a player cannot enjoy > a game, then that is one less person playing the game. The enjoyment of the > DM, however, is critical, because if the DM can't enjoy the game, then that > is as many as six more people not playing the game. Its also a fine balance... I could have enormous fun running around in my orange leotard wielding a pointed stick... but if the gallery goers get fed up and leave then what? Have I succeeded in creating art? My "Angela's Ashes the RPG" campaign could a triumph of gaming and modern literature, but if after the third excrutiating session of "Dad's drunk, we're hungry", all the players leave... then were they entertained? If a wall falls in an empty art gallery and kills a performance artist -- does anyone care? > This is not to say that we are in danger of creating that degree of > greatness with our role-playing, but, God, is there any harm in trying? There is no harm provided we find the balance between alienating our audience and creating art that entertains. Regards, Martin -- _/_/ Peace Software New Zealand Ltd Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com _/ Martin Dickson Fax : +64-9-373-0401 Analyst Phone: +64-9-373-0400 -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Jul 27 15:13:54 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id PAA03920; Thu, 27 Jul 2000 15:09:39 +1200 Received: from westpac.co.nz (firewall1.westpac.co.nz [210.55.236.18]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id PAA03917 for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2000 15:09:35 +1200 Received: by firewall1.westpac.co.nz id <32298>; Thu, 27 Jul 2000 15:10:50 +1200 X-Lotus-FromDomain: WESTPACTRUST Message-Id: <00Jul27.151050nzst.32298@firewall1.westpac.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 15:10:49 +1200 Subject: Re: Player vs DM From: "Mark Simpson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz How did we get from a discussion of Quickness to Martin "running around in an orange leotard wielding a pointed stick" - a mental image which will haunt my subconscious for some time to come ... ----------------------------------------------------------------- The contents of this e-mail are confidential to Westpac Banking Corporation. If you have received this communication by mistake, please advise the sender immediately and delete the message and any attachments. The views expressed in this e-mail are not necessarily the views of Westpac Banking Corporation. Westpac Banking Corporation is incorporated in New South Wales, Australia. ----------------------------------------------------------------- -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Jul 27 15:44:02 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id PAA04244; Thu, 27 Jul 2000 15:40:50 +1200 Received: from mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (mailhost.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.1.4]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id PAA04241 for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2000 15:40:46 +1200 Received: from sci4 (lbr-122-42.lbrsc.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.122.42]) by mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (8.9.2/8.9.2/8.9.2-ua) with SMTP id PAA03898 for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2000 15:36:48 +1200 (NZST) Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 15:37:20 +1200 Message-ID: <000101bff77b$f889ed10$2a7ad882@sci4> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Subject: RE: Player vs DM From: "Michael Parkinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Another player response: > Which is a better poem? Old McDonald Had a Farm, or The > Lovesong of J.Alfred Prufrock? > Drek with tunes are bad --- prompting noise from the noisome; but Elliot rhymes! SF ... besides there are sea-waves in the Lovesong; -- oh, and all that deep meaning stuff -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Jul 27 15:58:52 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id PAA04608; Thu, 27 Jul 2000 15:48:43 +1200 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (smtp2.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.8]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id PAA04605 for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2000 15:48:40 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p171-tnt2.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.245.171]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id PAA19158 for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2000 15:44:42 +1200 Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 15:40:28 +1200 Message-ID: <01bff77c$686c5a00$abf56dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Player vs DM From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Martin Dickson wrote: >Art, like beauty is very much in the eye of the beholder. And, etc. I won't paste the rest, because I think he makes his point lucidly and pungently enough that people will probably remember it. For a long time. Far too long a time...:-) Yes, it is in the eye of the beholder, BUT, the eye of the beholder has a great deal of scope. Role-playing is an artform that can be expanded to cover a lot more human experience than we currently let it. And, this is aside from live action roleplaying, or any of the other forms that might be called role-playing. Within the much narrower confines of a game like DQ, we could have a wider range of interaction. We can choose not to use a particular development because it clashes with the genre or the engine in some fashion. Or we could choose not to let our game evolve because of fear of something new. Some critical function must be excercised so that new forms aren't added just because they're avant-garde. On the other hand, if the game is frozen and stultified, then anything new would be an advantage. Not that I'm saying that this is the case with DQ at the moment. There is, however, a state of reflexive denial of anything new amongst the Gods. And, that isn't good. >RPGs are an artistic endeavour, and something like movie-making perhaps, they >are both art and craft. The mechanics of making the movie are craft, the actors >pursue their craft (and apsire to art), and the end product is (hopefully) art, >and greater than the sum of the parts. > >What is the role of an RPG? To entertain? To challenge? Many roleplayers play >to be entertained. Which would make better entertainment; an RPG based on >Indiana Jones, or one based on Angela's Ashes? Which would be better art? Perhaps the analogy between 'Old McDonald' and 'The Lovesong' was ill-advised,then. I'm not suggesting that every game has to be a statement of high art. I am saying that we are too focussed on numbers and statistics, and not much focussed on how to make it an experiential artform. And, that it would be better if we developed this side of the game. Because, the alternative is to play a computer game with your friends. Not a role-playing game of the kind we are used to, i.e., where there is a DM and some players who interact with each other. > >> The enjoyment of a player is important, because if a player cannot enjoy >> a game, then that is one less person playing the game. The enjoyment of the >> DM, however, is critical, because if the DM can't enjoy the game, then that >> is as many as six more people not playing the game. > >Its also a fine balance... I could have enormous fun running around in my orange >leotard wielding a pointed stick... but if the gallery goers get fed up and >leave then what? Have I succeeded in creating art? What makes for great art is an audience. We could talk about aesthetics all day, I suppose, and like Plato, contrive a method for determining the most beautiful chair. But, do we care? The important consideration about art is whether or not it communicates something human to us. If the constraints hinder that expression, then why don't we change the constraints? The only real consideration is whether or not we provide an entertaining and illuminating experience. If a rule screws around with that, then we should consider altering the rule. >My "Angela's Ashes the RPG" campaign could a triumph of gaming and modern >literature, but if after the third excrutiating session of "Dad's drunk, we're >hungry", all the players leave... then were they entertained? > >If a wall falls in an empty art gallery and kills a performance artist -- does >anyone care? The issue Martin warns about here, is indulgence. Yes, if we make art that is too avant garde, we are likely to alienate our audience.On the other hand, if we produce the same old stuff, we will lose it through boredom. Role-playing games have a history that associates them with people whose interests lie in fields outside of art, by and large. And, the result is a focus on keeping the game a system, rather than an art. I proprose that we need to address ourselves in THAT direction, at the moment, because it is untouched. In fact, it's virginal. What, actually, have we done with the device that is role-playing that makes it better? Mostly, we have just fiddled with the engine. Is that ALL we can be doing? > >> This is not to say that we are in danger of creating that degree of >> greatness with our role-playing, but, God, is there any harm in trying? > >There is no harm provided we find the balance between alienating our audience >and creating art that entertains. I don't agree. If a player has an unpleasant gaming experience, then they can go and play in another game. It really isn't that bad. Sure, if the game as a whole reeks of indulgence, or just plain sucks because it's bad, then we have a problem. But, it's only a problem. There is no real danger in alienating our audience in the same way that the atonal school stopped people from enjoying other kinds of music. What is regularly touted as a reason for not trying this is that we might frighten players away. It is devoid of reason, however. If the game disturbed people so much that they couldn't enjoy it (and I'm not saying that we will be immediately successful), then they will stop playing in THAT PARTICULAR GAME. In the same way that a person who attends a gallery to find Martin dressed in an orange leotard performing arabesques in front of blue canvasses won't stop them from going to other galleries. They might ring around and find out where Martin is, though. -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Jul 27 16:13:45 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id QAA04770; Thu, 27 Jul 2000 16:05:32 +1200 Received: from defacto.peace.co.nz (fwuser@[202.14.141.233] (may be forged)) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id QAA04767 for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2000 16:05:29 +1200 Message-ID: <397FB4C0.297FED69@peace.com> Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 16:04:16 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Player vs DM From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Jim Arona wrote: > In the same way that a person who attends a gallery to find > Martin dressed in an orange leotard performing arabesques in front of blue > canvasses won't stop them from going to other galleries. > They might ring around and find out where Martin is, though. What?! And miss my "painting the audience with body fluids" exhibition (raincoats provided at the door). :) Thank you Jim, you have helped enliven my rather dull afternoon. Kind Regards, Martin -- _/_/ Peace Software New Zealand Ltd Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com _/ Martin Dickson Fax : +64-9-373-0401 Analyst Phone: +64-9-373-0400 -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Jul 27 16:28:49 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id QAA04873; Thu, 27 Jul 2000 16:17:05 +1200 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (smtp2.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.8]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id QAA04870 for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2000 16:17:02 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p171-tnt2.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.245.171]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id QAA26050 for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2000 16:16:58 +1200 Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 16:12:45 +1200 Message-ID: <01bff780$ea93e9e0$abf56dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Martin Dickson's fault. Nothing to do with me... From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Martin Dickson wrote: >Jim Arona wrote: > >> In the same way that a person who attends a gallery to find >> Martin dressed in an orange leotard performing arabesques in front of blue >> canvasses won't stop them from going to other galleries. >> They might ring around and find out where Martin is, though. > >What?! And miss my "painting the audience with body fluids" exhibition >(raincoats provided at the door). > Eeeeeew -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Jul 27 16:43:48 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id QAA05068; Thu, 27 Jul 2000 16:40:51 +1200 Received: from defacto.peace.co.nz (fwuser@[202.14.141.233] (may be forged)) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id QAA05065 for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2000 16:40:47 +1200 Message-ID: <397FBCFE.CF14503A@peace.com> Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 16:39:26 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Player vs DM From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Jim Arona wrote: > There is, however, a state of reflexive denial of anything new amongst > the Gods. And, that isn't good. True, and true. > I'm not suggesting that every game has to be a statement of high art. > I am saying that we are too focussed on numbers and statistics, and not much > focussed on how to make it an experiential artform. And, that it would be > better if we developed this side of the game. > Because, the alternative is to play a computer game with your friends. Not a > role-playing game of the kind we are used to, i.e., where there is a DM and > some players who interact with each other. "Whither now the GM?". I suggest that computer games have already drawn away a significant portion of the audience that were involved in (or would have become involved in) RPGs. The Hack & Slash sub-genre is probably better served by POV shoot-em-ups, and the more pure adventure gaming by the newer MUDs such as Everquest. Computer games have the advantage of handling the bulk of the rules in a way that is transparent to the player. The graphics will continue to improve, and with high enough speed/bandwidth and an interface better than a common keyboard interactivity with other players (who may be anywhere in the world) will become increasingly easy. The next generation of MUDs may pretty much replace main-stream RPGs, and some of the GMs of today will merge with the computer based RPGs of tomorrow to create MUDs with storys and worlds that are more dynamic than what is currently available. The reasons for playing a live (but not LARP) game will need to concentrate on those areas that are not supported by multi-user computer games, such as genuine, up close socialising with friends (and playing an RPG), or perhaps avant garde impromtu theatre type gaming. Cheers, Martin -- _/_/ Peace Software New Zealand Ltd Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com _/ Martin Dickson Fax : +64-9-373-0401 Analyst Phone: +64-9-373-0400 -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Jul 27 17:44:03 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id RAA05460; Thu, 27 Jul 2000 17:42:40 +1200 Received: from smtp4.ihug.co.nz (smtp4.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.5]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id RAA05457 for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2000 17:42:36 +1200 Received: from writer (203-109-144-43.ihug.net [203.109.144.43]) by smtp4.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id RAA21783 for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2000 17:42:31 +1200 Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 17:42:31 +1200 Message-Id: <200007270542.RAA21783@smtp4.ihug.co.nz> X-Sender: fiona@pop.ihug.co.nz X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Could Prufrock really be a real name? From: "Fiona M.M.Cole" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz >then it diminishes everyone's enjoyment. > Which is a better poem? Old McDonald Had a Farm, or The Lovesong of >J.Alfred Prufrock? Yet, the Lovesong breaks just about every poetic form >that it alludes to. > This is not to say that we are in danger of creating that degree of >greatness with our role-playing, but, God, is there any harm in trying? > Absolutely not Jim and if there is greatness in Applied Strumpetry be assured Silken will find it. And she shall find it all the faster if she is Quickened :-) Fi -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Jul 27 17:44:51 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id RAA05425; Thu, 27 Jul 2000 17:39:39 +1200 Received: from smtp4.ihug.co.nz (smtp4.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.5]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id RAA05422 for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2000 17:39:36 +1200 Received: from writer (203-109-144-43.ihug.net [203.109.144.43]) by smtp4.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id RAA21479 for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2000 17:39:33 +1200 Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 17:39:33 +1200 Message-Id: <200007270539.RAA21479@smtp4.ihug.co.nz> X-Sender: fiona@pop.ihug.co.nz X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Fairness, to be or not to be From: "Fiona M.M.Cole" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz >>Fi > >To be fair Fi, Jim didn't say DQ was to get the GM's happy. He said >that we should be inspired by an interest in the game as a whole, not >in keeping one particular character happy. To be fair I have never, not once, claimed to be fair. I do feel that sometimes quite major changes are made in the game and to spells etc without any of the people making the changes having a personal interest in the results of that change. I make no bones about the fact I DO have a personal interest and I am speaking on behalf of my character. Is it such a bad thing to have an opinion from a player? I have often felt that the rule changes all lead eventually toward a creeping generalisation of skills and magic and I see this as another step in that direction. I am in the specialist camp. The appeal of DQ for me is the party dynamic and everything that makes party members less dependent on each other and more inclined to go solo or in pairs I see as a bad thing. There are many E and E's in the game.Is it true that new players are pressured to roll them up so shrivlled old relics can cynically squeeze them for Quickness after compelling them to use all their ep in Ranking it? I find this hard to believe Fi -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Jul 27 17:58:55 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id RAA05505; Thu, 27 Jul 2000 17:45:04 +1200 Received: from smtp4.ihug.co.nz (smtp4.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.5]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id RAA05493 for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2000 17:44:59 +1200 Received: from writer (203-109-144-43.ihug.net [203.109.144.43]) by smtp4.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id RAA22091 for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2000 17:44:54 +1200 Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 17:44:54 +1200 Message-Id: <200007270544.RAA22091@smtp4.ihug.co.nz> X-Sender: fiona@pop.ihug.co.nz X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Orange leotard From: "Fiona M.M.Cole" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz At 15:10 27/07/00 +1200, you wrote: >How did we get from a discussion of Quickness to Martin "running around in >an orange >leotard wielding a pointed stick" - a mental image which will haunt my >subconscious for some time to come ... And mine...alarming but somehow curiously compelling... I'd pay to see that :-) Fi -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Jul 27 17:59:46 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id RAA05578; Thu, 27 Jul 2000 17:53:04 +1200 Received: from smtp4.ihug.co.nz (smtp4.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.5]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id RAA05575 for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2000 17:53:01 +1200 Received: from writer (203-109-144-43.ihug.net [203.109.144.43]) by smtp4.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id RAA22934 for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2000 17:52:56 +1200 Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 17:52:56 +1200 Message-Id: <200007270552.RAA22934@smtp4.ihug.co.nz> X-Sender: fiona@pop.ihug.co.nz X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: funny you should mention Everquest From: "Fiona M.M.Cole" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > >I suggest that computer games have already drawn away a significant portion of >the audience that were involved in (or would have become involved in) RPGs. The >Hack & Slash sub-genre is probably better served by POV shoot-em-ups, and the >more pure adventure gaming by the newer MUDs such as Everquest. I have to say that there is little in DQ apart from the particular talents of some GM's that could draw me from Everquest.Indeed if I could regularly adventure with the same group of people online instead of having to cope with tired Yanks or rigidly french speaking Frogs it would be so similiar it would challenge even that. They struggle with the same issues.Every time they change anything they get blasted and yet people moan continuously 24 hours a day that things need improving. It is the uniqueness of a character over 12 years old and the comfort of being able to step into the role and now the tools of my trade that first led me to get involved in the Quickness issue. It was hard enough coming back to find Sleep had been so signifigantly downpowered. So I ask forgiveness for my reflexive denial of this proposed change and instead make a considered denial of it. Fi -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Jul 27 19:13:45 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id TAA06127; Thu, 27 Jul 2000 19:08:09 +1200 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id TAA06124 for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2000 19:08:05 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p58-tnt2.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.245.58]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id TAA06887 for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2000 19:07:57 +1200 Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 19:03:37 +1200 Message-ID: <01bff798$c9acd4e0$3af56dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Player vs DM From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Martin Dickson wrote: > >"Whither now the GM?". >The reasons for playing a live (but not LARP) game will need to concentrate on >those areas that are not supported by multi-user computer games, such as >genuine, up close socialising with friends (and playing an RPG), or perhaps >avant garde impromtu theatre type gaming. and Fiona M.Cole wrote: >I have to say that there is little in DQ apart from the particular talents >of some GM's that could draw me from Everquest.Indeed if I could regularly >adventure with the same group of people online instead of having to cope >with tired Yanks or rigidly french speaking Frogs it would be so similiar it >would challenge even that. >They struggle with the same issues.Every time they change anything they get >blasted and yet people moan continuously 24 hours a day that things need >improving. Already, we are seeing the beginnings of a different direction in which to take games. Everquest offers an opportunity to allow the engine to be as complex as is liked, because the machine will resolve the numbers for you. Again, let us step away from worrying about the robustness of the system, and look at what we can do to promote the game as a art. -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Jul 27 19:28:51 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id TAA06275; Thu, 27 Jul 2000 19:27:48 +1200 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id TAA06272 for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2000 19:27:44 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p58-tnt2.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.245.58]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id TAA08397 for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2000 19:27:37 +1200 Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 19:23:17 +1200 Message-ID: <01bff79b$88f4cf40$3af56dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Fairness, to be or not to be From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fiona M.Cole wrote: > >To be fair I have never, not once, claimed to be fair. > >I do feel that sometimes quite major changes are made in the game and to >spells etc without any of the people making the changes having a personal >interest in the results of that change. The point is, however, Fiona, that although the personal concerns of an individual may have some merit to them, they don't, in and of themselves have any particular merit with regard to the game as a whole. Yes, you can express your outrage. I imagine I can deal with that emotional outpouring. It won't change my opinion, though, because that is not the nature of this particular relationship. > >I make no bones about the fact I DO have a personal interest and I am >speaking on behalf of my character. > >Is it such a bad thing to have an opinion from a player? Yes. It IS a bad thing. Because all it does is tell us how you feel, it doesn't offer us any particular way of making the game better. As far as I can see, this means that the issue becomes democratic. Which is a fine way to run a government, but it's a crap way to produce a better game. How would you feel about consulting a doctor who chose not to address the issue of your health, made no examination of you, but asked the people in the waiting room to vote on your condition? >I have often felt that the rule changes all lead eventually toward a >creeping generalisation of skills and magic and I see this as another step >in that direction. >I am in the specialist camp. I disagree, Fiona. The camp you are firmly a member of is the Conservative party. You wish to see no change. Even in view of the fact that the game would be improved, you would rather it remain the same so that your character could have a spell that just about EVERY E&E mage has. Where is the individuation in that? Your postion, as I read it, produces a pressure to make all E&E's the same. And, it is the college with the largest membership. >There are many E and E's in the game.Is it true that new players are >pressured to roll them up so shrivlled old relics can cynically squeeze them >for Quickness after compelling them to use all their ep in Ranking it? > >I find this hard to believe Name the ones that don't have it, Fiona. Now, name the ones that do have Quickness. What is the percentage of E&E's that don't know Quickness? The fact is, you have learnt it, and Ranked it, and you are responding to a game pressure to do so. Yet, your character is an intensely social animal, not a combat beast. The spell has precious little value outside of combat. Yes, you can use it to run fast, I suppose, but it's hardly a transport spell. Executing a romantic tryst in a Quickened state might have some interesting uses, as well, especially if you seek to turn a handy profit from an evening's work, but the fatigue cost is going to cripple you, if that's the only thing that does. -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Jul 27 20:14:17 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id UAA06531; Thu, 27 Jul 2000 20:01:33 +1200 Received: from smtp4.ihug.co.nz (smtp4.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.5]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id UAA06528 for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2000 20:01:30 +1200 Received: from dworkin (p83-tnt7.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.203.83]) by smtp4.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id UAA00868 for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2000 20:01:23 +1200 Message-ID: <004b01bff7a0$ff55bbe0$4301a8c0@dworkin.ihug.co.nz> Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 20:01:43 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: Re: One last thing or three on Quickness From: "Dworkin" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz >Quickness is the essential core spell of E and E's >It is very powerful and can change the whole course of a combat. Yippee!!! > >Without it, would E and E's be wanted for their Wizard Eye? their Levitate? >their Sleep? Even the awesome and terrifying Web of Entanglement? >I think not > >It works. I love it. I ask you leave it alone > >Fi > Enhance Enchantment, Sleep, Telekinesis, Enchant weapon, Enchant Armour, Slowness, Crystal of Vision and Greater Enchantment all spring to mind as to why I want E+Es to be my friends. William -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Jul 28 00:43:44 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id AAA08253; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 00:29:09 +1200 Received: from smtp4.ihug.co.nz (smtp4.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.5]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id AAA08250 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 00:29:05 +1200 Received: from writer (203-109-144-43.ihug.net [203.109.144.43]) by smtp4.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id AAA24335 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 00:28:51 +1200 Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 00:28:51 +1200 Message-Id: <200007271228.AAA24335@smtp4.ihug.co.nz> X-Sender: fiona@pop.ihug.co.nz X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: Fairness, to be or not to be From: "Fiona M.M.Cole" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Yes, you can express your outrage. I imagine I can deal with that >emotional outpouring. It won't change my opinion, though, because that is >not the nature of this particular relationship. Imagine my relief... > As far as I can see, this means that the issue becomes democratic. Which >is a fine way to run a government, but it's a crap way to produce a better >game. > How would you feel about consulting a doctor who chose not to address >the issue of your health, made no examination of you, but asked the people >in the waiting room to vote on your condition? This metaphor is so vaporous it got lost somewhere between screen and eye > >>I have often felt that the rule changes all lead eventually toward a >>creeping generalisation of skills and magic and I see this as another step >>in that direction. >>I am in the specialist camp. > > I disagree, Fiona. The camp you are firmly a member of is the >Conservative party. You wish to see no change. Thank you for clearing that up for me Jim.I shall get my Rosette > Even in view of the fact that the game would be improved, you would >rather it remain the same so that your character could have a spell that >just about EVERY E&E mage has. Where is the individuation in that? Perhaps I misread the suggestion that quickness be made a skill available to all, E and E's, other magical oiks and non magic users alike. It is the fact that Quickness belongs ONLY to E and E mages I referred to > Your postion, as I read it, produces a pressure to make all E&E's the >same. And, it is the college with the largest membership. I think you read it incorrectly. And just how feeble do you think the players are? Don't any of them have free choice to tailor spell selection and ranking to suit the character they choose to play?. I'm not aware of any pressure on me to do anything apart from what I damn well want to do with my character. DQ is not winnable > > Name the ones that don't have it, Fiona. I don't know any who don't.Nor any fire mages of any age who don't have Dragonflames or any Mind Mages who don't have Telepathy. I do not see your point It is a good spell.There is no pressure to take it. Perhaps if party members donated ep to their E and E mage on the proviso it was spent ranking Quickness there would be...Actually that's a good idea..lets do that :-) > > Now, name the ones that do have Quickness. Wait I think...yes, I detect an implication that Silken might care who else is an E and E (apart from that uppity fishwife Amaranth) > > What is the percentage of E&E's that don't know Quickness? Hang on gets out calculator......By Garthron's Hammer it's 0%!! (swoons in face of devastating counter argument and small number) > The fact is, you have learnt it, and Ranked it, and you are responding >to a game pressure to do so. If you mean the fact that the snide comments dry up and the one pary member not covered by the first cast gets in a snit i guess you could call that pressure I call it "In Fight Entertainment" Yet, your character is an intensely social >animal, not a combat beast. She's human as you know perfectly well, rrrowwwwwll :-) The spell has precious little value outside of >combat. AHA!! yes it's a feeble little thing and we likes it, even though its useless, so can we keeps it? Yes, you can use it to run fast, I suppose, but it's hardly a >transport spell. Executing a romantic tryst in a Quickened state might have >some interesting uses, as well, especially if you seek to turn a handy >profit from an evening's work, but the fatigue cost is going to cripple you, >if that's the only thing that does. Don't hate her because she's gorgeous, Silken has suffered greatly and you just don't understand what she has to put up with every, single, day. (Sometimes twice a day ) Fi (Not really outraged, but most gratified by trouble stirred, cheers Jim:-)) -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Jul 28 02:13:43 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id BAA08825; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 01:59:55 +1200 Received: from smtp4.ihug.co.nz (smtp4.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.5]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id BAA08822 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 01:59:51 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p406-tnt8.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.139.152]) by smtp4.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id BAA26375 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 01:59:35 +1200 Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 01:55:13 +1200 Message-ID: <01bff7d2$49a97b60$988b6dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Fairness, to be or not to be From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz In response to Fiona M.Cole: >> As far as I can see, this means that the issue becomes democratic. Which >>is a fine way to run a government, but it's a crap way to produce a better >>game. >> How would you feel about consulting a doctor who chose not to address >>the issue of your health, made no examination of you, but asked the people >>in the waiting room to vote on your condition? > >This metaphor is so vaporous it got lost somewhere between screen and eye Well, the point I'm making that the only value of using the views of the playership as a yard stick of improvement is that they have too much to gain to offer an disinterested opinion. It would be, as it is in your case, biased in favour of the interests of your character. That's like trying to get the issue of what is best for the game settled by some kind of vote. It's not effective, because there would be too much discussion on what college or skill had what unfair advantage. And, basically, the playership doesn't have the skills to sensibly offer much of an opinion in terms of the impact decisions might have on the game. If they've only ever played, then how do they know what is difficult to DM and what isn't? So, I suggest the analogy again, perhaps this time in a light that you can make sense of. If you were sick, would you expect your doctor to ballot the other patients in the waiting room to determine what was wrong with you? >> >>>I have often felt that the rule changes all lead eventually toward a >>>creeping generalisation of skills and magic and I see this as another step >>>in that direction. >>>I am in the specialist camp. >> >> I disagree, Fiona. The camp you are firmly a member of is the >>Conservative party. You wish to see no change. > >Thank you for clearing that up for me Jim.I shall get my Rosette I shall get my overcoat and bomb. > > >> Even in view of the fact that the game would be improved, you would >>rather it remain the same so that your character could have a spell that >>just about EVERY E&E mage has. Where is the individuation in that? > >Perhaps I misread the suggestion that quickness be made a skill available to >all, E and E's, other magical oiks and non magic users alike. > >It is the fact that Quickness belongs ONLY to E and E mages I referred to No. It was one of the suggestions. There were others, but it seems that in your frenzy, you haven't chosen to discuss them. It is bootless to suggest that Quickness be missing from the game. If it were removed, then the spell would find it's way into it again, somewhere down the track. So, one of the proprosals that I made was that it be available to everyone. The reason for this is that otherwise, an E&E mage has to be considered as factor in every game that is run, and sometimes, that's just not reasonable. This creates an unusual pressure on the DM to manufacture alternative ways of allowing tough NPCs to have access to magic that allows enhanced action choices. If the envelope in this area is pushed too far, then the game starts to break down because suspension of disbelief is threatened. For example: Dillinger once observed to me that (in the old days of DQ) Illusionists were almost always really good fighters. The reasons why that was so are unimportant, but it used to be true. And, it was true because the game applied a particular pressure to the DM to create the character in that way. The college had such an effect on a character that it forced them down a particular road. Now, there's nothing particularly wrong to responding to game pressures. But, they are a useful signal as far as indicating whether or not the game is moving in a direction that is natural for it to go. Not all stories support the idea of E&E mages. And, that's okay. But, Quickness, on the other hand, is such a generically useful ability that the DM is forced to include it amongst their NPCs repertoire in one way or another. And, it is this that I object to. I don't want to have to include the effect in every NPC I generate. On the other hand, I'm forced to consider it at medium to high levels of the game. It's boring, Fiona. It limits the stories I can tell. > >> Your postion, as I read it, produces a pressure to make all E&E's the >>same. And, it is the college with the largest membership. > >I think you read it incorrectly. And just how feeble do you think the >players are? >Don't any of them have free choice to tailor spell selection and ranking to >suit the character they choose to play?. I'm not aware of any pressure on me >to do anything apart from what I damn well want to do with my character. Then you are blind, Fiona. You respond to game pressures whether you know it or not. Other players do, too. To say that you are somehow immune to this observable effect is to imagine that you are elementally different to all of the other players. It's not a question of feebleness, in any case. That's just an attempt to cloud the issue with emotion. A player responds to game pressures because, in large part, they observe some value in doing so. You have responded to game pressure by ranking Quickness. It's a useful spell, with a ridiculously low EM for what it does. It allows you to contribute to the game. > >DQ is not winnable I never said it was, Fiona, and the fact that you say it now, doesn't in any way indicate that you're arguments are based on that point, or that mine aren't. It's another red herring. > >> >> Name the ones that don't have it, Fiona. > >I don't know any who don't.Nor any fire mages of any age who don't have >Dragonflames or any Mind Mages who don't have Telepathy. I do not see your point > >It is a good spell.There is no pressure to take it. That's the point. It is a good spell. Therefore, there is pressure to take it. There are more Mind Mages out there that don't have Telepathy than there are E&E mages who don't have Quickness...Hell, there are more E&E mages than there are Mind mages. Which is not to say that there aren't problems with Telepathy, and that it doesn't need to be addressed. It is, however, not the spell that we're discussing right now. >(Not really outraged, but most gratified by trouble stirred, cheers Jim:-)) I wonder what it cost you to say that, Fiona...I would love to hear the grinding of your teeth... -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Jul 28 09:43:48 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id JAA11431; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 09:29:19 +1200 Received: from mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (mailhost.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.1.4]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id JAA11428 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 09:29:10 +1200 Received: from sci4 (lbr-122-42.lbrsc.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.122.42]) by mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (8.9.2/8.9.2/8.9.2-ua) with SMTP id JAA27738 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 09:28:42 +1200 (NZST) Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 09:29:13 +1200 Message-ID: <000001bff811$b5ba6f50$2a7ad882@sci4> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Subject: RE: One last thing or three on Quickness From: "Michael Parkinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz William wrote (wrt the non-quickness spell of E&Es) > Enhance Enchantment, Sleep, Telekinesis, Enchant weapon, Enchant Armour, > Slowness, Crystal of Vision and Greater Enchantment all spring > to mind as to > why I want E+Es to be my friends. > > William Actually we seriously depowered Sleep; It was clarified that Telekinesis didn't enable players to do what they thought could be done with it; There is some repugnance at how "game-destroying" greater enchantment is & it was changed from the original version; etc one suspects that people *say* they like E&Es, but really ... Michael. -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Jul 28 10:13:52 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id KAA11725; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 10:07:25 +1200 Received: from westpac.co.nz (firewall1.westpac.co.nz [210.55.236.18]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id KAA11722 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 10:07:20 +1200 Received: by firewall1.westpac.co.nz id <32312>; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 10:12:03 +1200 X-Lotus-FromDomain: WESTPACTRUST Message-Id: <00Jul28.101203nzst.32312@firewall1.westpac.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 10:12:03 +1200 Subject: Re: Fairness, to be or not to be From: "Mark Simpson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Jim wrote: > Well, the point I'm making that the only value of using the views of the >playership as a yard stick of improvement is that they have too much to gain >to offer an disinterested opinion. > It would be, as it is in your case, biased in favour of the interests of >your character. I see, so people cannot offer an opinion on a rule change to a college in which they have a character. That will be why the GM the "Gods" charged with re-writing the fire college actually played a fire mage and the GM charged with re-writing the Illusionist college played an illusionist character, ditto mind etc. etc. etc. Fine upstanding examples of this much vaunted impartiality you GM's are! Surely the point is that people who play characters in the college under review are uniquiely placed to pass comment on the effect of a change. We should pay close attention to their views and not disregard them out of hand as you suggest! and later Jim wrote: > And, basically, the playership doesn't have the skills to sensibly offer >much of an opinion in terms of the impact decisions might have on the game. >If they've only ever played, then how do they know what is difficult to DM >and what isn't? So players have nothing to contribute to these discussions Jim? Condescending, mis-informed arrogant drivel Jim. So you argue on the one hand that to make a worthwhile contirbution to a rules discussion you must have experienced being a GM while on the other you argue that having experienced playing a character in a college should prevent you from contributing to a discussion of the rules that pertain to that college? I believe we "mere players" are capable of contributing a lot to these discussions, but then I would say that being a mere player (in the DQ system - I have GM'd under several other systems). /\/\ark ----------------------------------------------------------------- The contents of this e-mail are confidential to Westpac Banking Corporation. If you have received this communication by mistake, please advise the sender immediately and delete the message and any attachments. The views expressed in this e-mail are not necessarily the views of Westpac Banking Corporation. Westpac Banking Corporation is incorporated in New South Wales, Australia. ----------------------------------------------------------------- -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Jul 28 11:13:59 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id LAA12234; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 11:11:58 +1200 Received: from kcbbs.gen.nz (kcbbs.gen.nz [202.14.102.1]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id LAA12231 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 11:11:55 +1200 Received: from bear (as5200-59.kcbbs.gen.nz [202.14.102.89]) by kcbbs.gen.nz (8.9.3/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA27722 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 11:09:35 +1200 (NZST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000728111153.0086ab10@kcbbs.gen.nz> X-Sender: salient@kcbbs.gen.nz X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 11:11:53 +1200 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: One last thing or three on Quickness From: Sally Jackson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz I've just read throught he discussion of quickness et al, and as one of the players of a meduium-high e&e character without Quickness, I thought I'd just add as an aside, that Kathleen does like quickness, and hasn't learnt it, only because then everyone would want for her to cast it on them. (She hasn't leanrt Enhance either, for the same reason) But she loves other's to cast/trigger it on her. :) This is a character personality reason, rather than a game mechanic reason. And yes, it has been hard resisting the game mechnaic pressure. I think it has been resisted because there are so many E&E about that there are often more than one in the party and the other generally has quickness. The points from various people's posts that struck me as being pertinent are: Dq party style set up for team work, meaning having the E&E in the party (and there are enough in the guild to go around) casting live would encourage this teamwork, rather than having investeds. (Like how every party wants a namer to banishing etc) This leads towards making it uninvestable, or as a compromise, potionable for self only. I'm not in favour of the skill idea. It is a magic. Does changing it to a short (10min?) ritual be another option. Then it can be prepared when the party knows it's going into a combat situation (e.g. to storm the castle), but not available for the ambushes the GM throws at them. The GM has the option of creating a time pressure of events, such that the E&E doesn't get a chance to cst it. Also effects the ranking time. If the party are assumed to havce quickness, then the GM manipulates the NPCs to also have quickness, so both parties end up quickend (which also makes it easier to administer from GM point of view ?) so they negate each other, and it is as if there wasn't any in the game at all. If it were removed from the game, pressure would then fall onto slowness, which needs to be cast on the foe and so they have a chance to resist. If quickness were removed, then the numbers of targets of slowness could be tweaked down to not effect all the foe at once, if necessary. The two actions per pulse are tricky etc to administer, then perhaps addressing this in the initiative system of the combat, or at least looking at it in context of the combat system is required. Regards, Sally -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Jul 28 11:45:07 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id LAA12369; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 11:30:27 +1200 Received: from smtp4.ihug.co.nz (smtp4.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.5]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id LAA12366 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 11:30:23 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p149-tnt2.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.245.149]) by smtp4.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id LAA30465 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 11:29:53 +1200 Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 11:25:27 +1200 Message-ID: <01bff821$f2e89040$95f56dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: One last thing or three on Quickness From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sally Jackson wrote: >Dq party style set up for team work, meaning having the E&E in the party >(and there are enough in the guild to go around) casting live would >encourage this teamwork, rather than having investeds. (Like how every >party wants a namer to banishing etc) This leads towards making it >uninvestable, or as a compromise, potionable for self only. > >I'm not in favour of the skill idea. It is a magic. That's not an argument, that's just parrotting what it's always been. If we change the effect so that it's not magical, then it IS mundane. >Does changing it to a >short (10min?) ritual be another option. Then it can be prepared when the >party knows it's going into a combat situation (e.g. to storm the castle), >but not available for the ambushes the GM throws at them. The GM has the >option of creating a time pressure of events, such that the E&E doesn't get >a chance to cst it. Also effects the ranking time. It's certainly an idea worth considering, anyway. It's another alternative that hasn't been considered yet, anyway. > >If the party are assumed to havce quickness, then the GM manipulates the >NPCs to also have quickness, so both parties end up quickend (which also >makes it easier to administer from GM point of view ?) so they negate each >other, and it is as if there wasn't any in the game at all. If it were >removed from the game, pressure would then fall onto slowness, which needs >to be cast on the foe and so they have a chance to resist. If quickness >were removed, then the numbers of targets of slowness could be tweaked down >to not effect all the foe at once, if necessary. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, here, Sally. > >The two actions per pulse are tricky etc to administer, then perhaps >addressing this in the initiative system of the combat, or at least looking >at it in context of the combat system is required. No, it's not the initiative system that is the problem. The problem is the extra actions which has a powerful effect on the game. Possibly, the answer might lie in some fiddling around with the initiative system. I don't know. But addressing the issue through initiative doesn't take us anywhere, because initiative is such a mine field. -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Jul 28 11:47:31 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id LAA12389; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 11:35:00 +1200 Received: from cancel.usenet.net.nz (root@usenet.net.nz [203.29.170.93]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id LAA12386 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 11:34:56 +1200 Received: from fclaklmr02.fcl.co.nz ([202.14.23.202]) by cancel.usenet.net.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id LAA17217 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 11:34:26 +1200 Received: from falaklex00.falum.co.nz (10.8.1.28) by fclaklmr02.fcl.co.nz Friday, July 28, 2000 11:24:36 Message-ID: Received: by falaklex00.fcl.co.nz with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 11:27:26 +1200 Message-ID: <311B3C3DD32FD311B33900805F770A7202261445@falaklex00.fcl.co.nz> Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 11:27:16 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01BFF822.3905DE40" Subject: Sunrise/sunset/moontimes/tidetimes resource From: "Andrew Withy (FAL AKL)" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01BFF822.3905DE40 Content-Type: text/plain I always use the moon to work out how much my parties can see at night, and as they seem to spend an awful lot of time staggering around without witchsight; also my bad guys like to ambush without a moon in the sky, and my parties thus put more people on watch then; also parties hate to silhouette themselves against a full moon when launching surprise attacks, and for a lot of other reasons like that, I like to know what happening with the moon. After a while, I lose track, and players hate to have to remind me that it was full last night, so how come its a new moon tonight. I have devised a chart that lets me know roughly how much of the moon is showing, when it rises and sets, and the same with the sun for an arbitrary latitude (or was that longitude) that gives a nice but not extreme variation. I also threw in tide times, for fun. (I assumed the sun & moon rotate around Alusia at a constant distance and speed). Example line: Date Dawn Dusk Moonrise MoonZenith Moonset Moonsize High Tide High Tide 10 Meadow 800 05:03 18:56 02:56 08:34 14:11 19% 09:34 22:00 If any GM thinks this is useful for them as a guideline, I'l mail you a copy. If any player wants it as a guide, that's fine too, but remember that your GM may prefer to use whatever they feel like to work this out, and if they want full moons on monday & thursday, you're getting them... If you don't want to use it, don't bother to tell me. Andrew ------_=_NextPart_001_01BFF822.3905DE40 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sunrise/sunset/moontimes/tidetimes resource

I always use the moon to work out how = much my parties can see at night, and as they seem to spend an awful = lot of time staggering around without witchsight; also my bad guys like = to ambush without a moon in the sky, and my parties thus put more = people on watch then; also parties hate to silhouette themselves = against a full moon when launching surprise attacks, and for a lot of = other reasons like that, I like to know what happening with the moon. = After a while, I lose track, and players hate to have to remind me that = it was full last night, so how come its a new moon tonight.

I have devised a chart that lets me = know roughly how much of the moon is showing, when it rises and sets, = and the same with the sun for an arbitrary latitude (or was that = longitude) that gives a nice but not extreme variation. I also threw in = tide times, for fun. (I assumed the sun & moon rotate around Alusia = at a constant distance and speed).

Example line:
Date    =         Dawn    = Dusk    = Moonrise        = MoonZenith      Moonset = Moonsize        High = Tide       High Tide
10 Meadow 800   = 05:03   18:56   02:56   =         08:34   =         14:11   =         19%     =         09:34   =         22:00

If any GM thinks this is useful for = them as a guideline, I'l mail you a copy. If any player wants it as a = guide, that's fine too, but remember that your GM may prefer to use = whatever they feel like to work this out, and if they want full moons = on monday & thursday, you're getting them...

If you don't want to use it, don't = bother to tell me.

Andrew

------_=_NextPart_001_01BFF822.3905DE40-- -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Jul 28 12:13:37 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id LAA12563; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 11:59:59 +1200 Received: from smtp4.ihug.co.nz (smtp4.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.5]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id LAA12560 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 11:59:55 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p149-tnt2.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.245.149]) by smtp4.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id LAA02872; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 11:59:24 +1200 Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 11:54:01 +1200 Message-ID: <01bff825$f066a380$95f56dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Fairness, to be or not to be From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mark Simpson wrote: >I see, so people cannot offer an opinion on a rule change to a college in >which they have a character. That >will be why the GM the "Gods" charged with re-writing the fire college >actually played a fire mage and the GM >charged with re-writing the Illusionist college played an illusionist >character, ditto mind etc. etc. etc. Fine upstanding examples of this much >vaunted impartiality you GM's are! Actually, I am on record as saying that this a flawed procedure. That the revisors of the colleges or skills or what ever should not be active users of it. >Surely the point is that people who play characters in the college under >review are uniquiely placed to pass comment on the effect of a change. We >should pay close attention to their views and not disregard them out of >hand as you suggest! This isn't the same kind of discussion. As far as a college is concerned, then there is a place for members of the college to contribute meaningfully to a revision. But, it is an advisory role, only, not an editorial one. > >and later Jim wrote: > >> And, basically, the playership doesn't have the skills to sensibly offer >>much of an opinion in terms of the impact decisions might have on the >game. >>If they've only ever played, then how do they know what is difficult to DM >>and what isn't? > >So players have nothing to contribute to these discussions Jim? >Condescending, mis-informed arrogant drivel Jim. Is it, Mark? How do you support your contention, aside from stamping your little foot? I haven't said that players don't have anything to contribute, that's your construction. What I have said is that listening to the outraged reactions of people who are affected by an editorial decision doesn't do anything useful, really, and that as a rule, we cannot simply vote procedures through on the basis of what will make the majority of the playership happy. The way the game works is a DM issue. If, tomorrow, the rules were magically changed so that everyone could rank counterspells, then the playership would deal with it from the perspective of their characters. The DMs would have to deal with a changed world. > >So you argue on the one hand that to make a worthwhile contirbution to a >rules discussion you must have experienced being a GM while on the other >you argue that having experienced playing a character in a college should >prevent you from contributing to a discussion of the rules that pertain to >that college? > >I believe we "mere players" are capable of contributing a lot to these >discussions, but then I would say that being a mere player (in the DQ >system - I have GM'd under several other systems). No, that is not what I argue. What I am saying is that we should not entertain argument on the basis of whether or not it would make a character happy. Players have a lot to contribute, I would say. But an argument like 'It's a really important spell for Tiddles' is not useful, productive or relevant. In any successful revision, there is going to be change. That is unavoidable. The playership, on the whole, acts as a retardant against that change, if only because they're a larger group of people. But, even aside from the size factor, the simple fact is that players gain more benefits from keeping the game the same. It creates an environment that is stable, and allows them to apply leverage against the world. Not that this is a bad thing, just that it indicates their motivation. A DM, on the other hand, is inspired, or ought to be, to provide for new situations, different stories, and a world where the player has to discover what is going on around them. These pressures are frequently in conflict. Now, it may be that someone may oppose a change for reasons other than simple conservativeness. That's fine, their contribution is useful and of course we should make use of it. Observably, however, what happens is that vocal players complain about changes to the system, and it is probably the most common single contribution that they offer. This wastes time and stops the development of the game as a whole. We cannot afford to develop the game in a simply democratic way. Whether or not you are prepared to accept it, DMing is a different bundle of skills than role-playing a character, and it has different imperatives. It concerns itself with telling a story, rather than making a character more vibrant and alive. A player contributes to a story by introducing story elements that relate to their character, and that is one of the most interesting properties of a role-playing game over any other story-telling medium. But, those story elements are focussed around an individual and have a limited impact on the game as a whole. The DM is dealing with the genre and the game engine as the foundation on which that story might be built, whether or not they articulate in this fashion. By dint of this alone, then, their bias is toward an environment that provides for a variety of games. While a player might be interested in taking part in a variety of games, they seldom want to place their character in any real jeopardy with regard to it. And, why should they? Their interest is in telling the story of their character, and it's hard to tell much of a story when you're character is a corpse. Except, maybe, The End. And, finally, while you can put quotes around any individual thing I have said, and then paraphrase it back out of context, it doesn't change what I meant. It indicates that you are trying to make it mean something else, that's all. -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Jul 28 12:14:36 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id MAA12613; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 12:03:32 +1200 Received: from smtp4.ihug.co.nz (smtp4.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.5]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id MAA12609 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 12:03:29 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p149-tnt2.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.245.149]) by smtp4.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id MAA03230 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 12:02:58 +1200 Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 11:58:34 +1200 Message-ID: <01bff826$9303aac0$95f56dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Fairness, to be or not to be From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mark Simpson wrote: >I see, so people cannot offer an opinion on a rule change to a college in >which they have a character. That >will be why the GM the "Gods" charged with re-writing the fire college >actually played a fire mage and the GM >charged with re-writing the Illusionist college played an illusionist >character, ditto mind etc. etc. etc. Fine upstanding examples of this much >vaunted impartiality you GM's are! Actually, I am on record as saying that this a flawed procedure. That the revisors of the colleges or skills or what ever should not be active users of it. >Surely the point is that people who play characters in the college under >review are uniquiely placed to pass comment on the effect of a change. We >should pay close attention to their views and not disregard them out of >hand as you suggest! This isn't the same kind of discussion. As far as a college is concerned, then there is a place for members of the college to contribute meaningfully to a revision. But, it is an advisory role, only, not an editorial one. > >and later Jim wrote: > >> And, basically, the playership doesn't have the skills to sensibly offer >>much of an opinion in terms of the impact decisions might have on the >game. >>If they've only ever played, then how do they know what is difficult to DM >>and what isn't? > >So players have nothing to contribute to these discussions Jim? >Condescending, mis-informed arrogant drivel Jim. Is it, Mark? How do you support your contention, aside from stamping your little foot? I haven't said that players don't have anything to contribute, that's your construction. What I have said is that listening to the outraged reactions of people who are affected by an editorial decision doesn't do anything useful, really, and that as a rule, we cannot simply vote procedures through on the basis of what will make the majority of the playership happy. The way the game works is a DM issue. If, tomorrow, the rules were magically changed so that everyone could rank counterspells, then the playership would deal with it from the perspective of their characters. The DMs would have to deal with a changed world. > >So you argue on the one hand that to make a worthwhile contirbution to a >rules discussion you must have experienced being a GM while on the other >you argue that having experienced playing a character in a college should >prevent you from contributing to a discussion of the rules that pertain to >that college? > >I believe we "mere players" are capable of contributing a lot to these >discussions, but then I would say that being a mere player (in the DQ >system - I have GM'd under several other systems). No, that is not what I argue. What I am saying is that we should not entertain argument on the basis of whether or not it would make a character happy. Players have a lot to contribute, I would say. But an argument like 'It's a really important spell for Tiddles' is not useful, productive or relevant. In any successful revision, there is going to be change. That is unavoidable. The playership, on the whole, acts as a retardant against that change, if only because they're a larger group of people. But, even aside from the size factor, the simple fact is that players gain more benefits from keeping the game the same. It creates an environment that is stable, and allows them to apply leverage against the world. Not that this is a bad thing, just that it indicates their motivation. A DM, on the other hand, is inspired, or ought to be, to provide for new situations, different stories, and a world where the player has to discover what is going on around them. These pressures are frequently in conflict. Now, it may be that someone may oppose a change for reasons other than simple conservativeness. That's fine, their contribution is useful and of course we should make use of it. Observably, however, what happens is that vocal players complain about changes to the system, and it is probably the most common single contribution that they offer. This wastes time and stops the development of the game as a whole. We cannot afford to develop the game in a simply democratic way. Whether or not you are prepared to accept it, DMing is a different bundle of skills than role-playing a character, and it has different imperatives. It concerns itself with telling a story, rather than making a character more vibrant and alive. A player contributes to a story by introducing story elements that relate to their character, and that is one of the most interesting properties of a role-playing game over any other story-telling medium. But, those story elements are focussed around an individual and have a limited impact on the game as a whole. The DM is dealing with the genre and the game engine as the foundation on which that story might be built, whether or not they articulate in this fashion. By dint of this alone, then, their bias is toward an environment that provides for a variety of games. While a player might be interested in taking part in a variety of games, they seldom want to place their character in any real jeopardy with regard to it. And, why should they? Their interest is in telling the story of their character, and it's hard to tell much of a story when you're character is a corpse. Except, maybe, The End. And, finally, while you can put quotes around any individual thing I have said, and then paraphrase it back out of context, it doesn't change what I meant. It indicates that you are trying to make it mean something else, that's all. -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Jul 28 12:28:36 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id MAA12726; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 12:14:18 +1200 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (smtp2.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.8]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id MAA12722 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 12:14:08 +1200 Received: from work.ihug.co.nz (p44-max9.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.98.236]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id MAA27371 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 12:13:37 +1200 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.0.20000728115726.00ad4ee0@pop.ihug.co.nz> X-Sender: phaeton@pop.ihug.co.nz X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 12:08:42 +1200 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: Re: Fairness, to be or not to be From: Keith Smith To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Well, the point I'm making that the only value of using the views of the >playership as a yard stick of improvement is that they have too much to gain >to offer an disinterested opinion. Maybe, but if they can offer any improvement then it behooves us, as GMs, to listen to them. From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Jul 28 12:43:36 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id MAA12948; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 12:37:46 +1200 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (smtp2.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.8]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id MAA12945 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 12:37:43 +1200 Received: from work.ihug.co.nz (p44-max9.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.98.236]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id MAA30287 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 12:37:12 +1200 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.0.20000728123131.00abc630@pop.ihug.co.nz> X-Sender: phaeton@pop.ihug.co.nz X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 12:31:57 +1200 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: Test - please ignore From: Keith Smith To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Test -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Jul 28 12:48:10 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id MAA12903; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 12:32:14 +1200 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (smtp2.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.8]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id MAA12900 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 12:32:11 +1200 Received: from work.ihug.co.nz (p44-max9.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.98.236]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id MAA29648 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 12:31:40 +1200 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.0.20000728122513.00bfe330@pop.ihug.co.nz> X-Sender: phaeton@pop.ihug.co.nz X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 12:26:31 +1200 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: Test - please ignore From: Keith Smith To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Test. -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Jul 28 13:21:19 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id NAA13221; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 13:10:47 +1200 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (smtp2.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.8]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id NAA13218 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 13:10:44 +1200 Received: from work.ihug.co.nz (p44-max9.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.98.236]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id NAA01600 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 13:10:11 +1200 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.0.20000728124046.00aafa70@pop.ihug.co.nz> X-Sender: flamis@pop.ihug.co.nz X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 13:04:38 +1200 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: Whose stories are they? From: Jacqui Smith To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Not all stories support the idea of E&E mages. And, that's okay. But, >Quickness, on the other hand, is such a generically useful ability that the >DM is forced to include it amongst their NPCs repertoire in one way or >another. And, it is this that I object to. I don't want to have to include >the effect in every NPC I generate. On the other hand, I'm forced to >consider it at medium to high levels of the game. > It's boring, Fiona. It limits the stories I can tell. I find that last statement very revealing. It explains why I find certain GM's games boring to play in and others vastly more interesting. It's down to whether or not the player's character can have any real impact on the evolution of the story or whether they are just being carried along by a sequence of events on which they have little or no influence. Whose story is it? Is it one person's, or that of the entire group? The best definition of role-playing I know comes from a man who has to be one of the best GMs on the planet. I refer to Professor MAR Barker, the developer of "Empire of the Petal Throne". He defines role-playing as "Cooperative interactive oral fiction". Now, for the purposes of this discussion the key words are "cooperative" and "interactive". If the players have no influence on the outcome of the story, then it is neither cooperative or interactive. It is a novel, not a role-playing game. And not a very good novel either, because the plot would be driving the characters, rather than the characters driving the plot. Of course this means that the GM cannot afford to be inflexible, or so protective of their little domain that the players cannot change it through their characters' actions. I try to make the stories I GM such that the players feel that their characters have made a change in the world we have shared together, hopefully a change for the better - and I also hope that they have had the opportunity to develop their characters in a positive way. It doesn't always work out that way - but at least I try! Jacqui -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Jul 28 13:25:55 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id NAA13171; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 13:08:00 +1200 Received: from smtp4.ihug.co.nz (smtp4.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.5]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id NAA13168 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 13:07:57 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p149-tnt2.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.245.149]) by smtp4.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id NAA10458 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 13:07:25 +1200 Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 13:03:02 +1200 Message-ID: <01bff82f$947f8640$95f56dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Fairness, to be or not to be From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Keith Smith wrote: >> Well, the point I'm making that the only value of using the views of the >>playership as a yard stick of improvement is that they have too much to gain >>to offer an disinterested opinion. > >Maybe, but if they can offer any improvement then it behooves us, as GMs, >to listen to them. The problem is that you endlessly wade through dross to find the gold. Yes, if someone comes up with something, then we should look into it. But all that listening to a lot of voices saying the same thing is that it rewards conservatism. When you give people a voice, then they expect to be heard, and their opinions attended to. And, people who are subjected to those opinions are pressured by them. That is the way government works, for example. This is way off the topic, but we have on our law books, currently, a lot of criminal law that refers to illegal drugs. And, yet, the only reason that there is an illegal trade in drugs is because we have made profitable, by outlawing it. If the drugs could be bought safely, over a counter, then organised crime would have no means to make money at it. They would have to go back to making money with gambling and prostitution. Nevertheless, because our country is a democratic one, and people feel strongly about illegal drugs, then it is illegal. Even thought it makes no sense to make drug use illegal. Now, while a population can support that sort of thing (there have been lots of strange forms of government down through the years...Sparta has always struck me as being very odd), a game cannot. The reason is that a government merely supports the wishes of the people that they represent. They don't have the power to change the law of gravity, for example. In a role-playing game, we can make those kinds of decisions. The game engine has to be rigid enough that it provides enough support that the players and the DM know what each other mean, and yet flexible enough so that a variety of different stories can be told. This isn't the sort of issue that we just hand over to all of our players and say 'You decide'. Sure, there might be an issue or two that we could do that with. But, it would have to be unusual. Yes, a good idea is a good idea, whatever its source. Should we blindly accept the contributions of players? No. Because, as I've said before, they have too much to gain or lose. And, finally, whatever is decided here is only discretionary. A DM may choose to suspend a rule because it conflicts with his game in some way. I can find plenty of justifications for why a particular effect does or doesn't work. Or I can simply say that a given rule makes no sense to me, and I will not play it. A player is not in that position. A player can't say, for example, that they choose not to be affected by Hellfire, because it's a stupid spell. They might be right about it being a stupid spell, but if the spell that has impacted on them is, in fact, Hellfire, then they're in trouble. The only real choice a player has, as far as this sort of thing is concerned, is to choose whether or not they will play in it. Once committed to that choice, then they are bound by the choices the DM makes. On the other hand, a DM that abuses the trust that a player gives them is going to have difficulty find people to play in their game. As a generalisation, a player doesn't have the skills, or the point of view that allows them to look at the game as a whole, and determine what is best for it. To give every one a vote is to court trenchant, unexamined conservatism, because the playership outnumbers the Gods, and their interest lies in areas other than the development of the game. If that were not the case, would we have seen Fiona's complaints about altering Quickness? She admits that she is inspired by a desire to protect her character. She raises only one point that has an impact outside of the interests of Silken, and that is that Quickness makes E&E mages special. The rest are all about how important it is to Silken. There's enough noise in the signal now. Do we really need to add to it? -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Jul 28 13:35:42 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id NAA13292; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 13:15:55 +1200 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (smtp2.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.8]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id NAA13289 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 13:15:51 +1200 Received: from work.ihug.co.nz (p44-max9.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.98.236]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id NAA02215 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 13:15:18 +1200 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.0.20000728130923.00c023f0@pop.ihug.co.nz> X-Sender: phaeton@pop.ihug.co.nz X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 13:09:34 +1200 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: Re: Fairness, to be or not to be From: Keith Smith To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Well, the point I'm making that the only value of using the views of the >playership as a yard stick of improvement is that they have too much to gain >to offer an disinterested opinion. Maybe, but if they can offer any improvement then it behooves us, as GMs, to listen to them. From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Jul 28 14:21:12 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id OAA13716; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 14:02:31 +1200 Received: from fep4-orange.clear.net.nz (fep4-orange.clear.net.nz [203.97.32.4]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id OAA13713 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 14:02:26 +1200 Received: from comms.maclean.co.nz (d1-u12.acld.clear.net.nz [203.97.48.12]) by fep4-orange.clear.net.nz (1.5/1.7) with ESMTP id OAA08920; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 14:01:34 +1200 (NZST) Received: by comms.maclean.co.nz with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) id ; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 13:55:30 +1200 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 13:55:28 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: Purification From: Tom Mason To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Hello, I have a character, Goran Axebiter, Dwarven Fighter that I am currently working with. I would like to know if it is possible to set up a form of 'fighter' purification. At the moment he is a Rank 4 warrior and I am training him to rank 10 as quickly as possible - he has only been on four adventures so far. I would like to use a fighter purification ability with rank 10 unarmed combat. As a pure fighter, Goran, doesn't really stand a chance against a magic user, especially since seeing he is afraid of magic. What sort of process do we need to go through to develop this idea. I am sure this idea has been put forward in the past and I would like to know if anyone has succeeded in this. This would enable me to create my own character better. Tom :-) -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Jul 28 14:23:14 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id OAA13756; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 14:09:00 +1200 Received: from defacto.peace.co.nz (fwuser@[202.14.141.233] (may be forged)) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id OAA13753 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 14:08:57 +1200 Message-ID: <3980EAB4.3991ABE7@peace.com> Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 14:06:44 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Fairness, to be or not to be From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Jim Arona wrote: > The reason is that a government merely supports the wishes of the people > that they represent. They don't have the power to change the law of gravity, > for example. In a role-playing game, we can make those kinds of decisions. ... > A player can't say, for example, that they choose not to be affected by > Hellfire, because it's a stupid spell. They might be right about it being a > stupid spell, but if the spell that has impacted on them is, in fact, > Hellfire, then they're in trouble. This is not or need not be a universal constant in roleplaying and several RPG systems allow the players the ability (albeit usually limited) to ignore the Hellfire or change the law of gravity. "Hero points" or their equivalent are one mechanism by which this is achieved -- the player gains points for various things and "burns" them in order to have greater influence within the story, to effectively break the world rules. For example, a fall that should kill a PC, (according to the rules), could be turned into a much less serious injury through lucky happenstance. Another approach was what TORG took -- giving players cards that were essentially "get out of jail free"/"change gravity for a little while" sort of things, that said things like "Play this when the party is lost... an X comes and rescues you". These mechanisms give some measure of gameworld altering power to the players (although it could be argued that they do not allow player to play outside the rules, but rather extend the rules into game manipulation). Perhaps they detract from the ability of the GM to tell their story -- perhaps they impact on the "divine right" of GMs. But to suggest that it such mechanisms do not, or cannot, exist in roleplaying would be inaccurate. -- _/_/ Peace Software New Zealand Ltd Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com _/ Martin Dickson Fax : +64-9-373-0401 Analyst Phone: +64-9-373-0400 -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Jul 28 14:34:28 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id OAA13864; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 14:20:48 +1200 Received: from smtp4.ihug.co.nz (smtp4.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.5]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id OAA13861 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 14:20:45 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p149-tnt2.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.245.149]) by smtp4.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id OAA00802 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 14:20:11 +1200 Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 14:15:50 +1200 Message-ID: <01bff839$bfd69a40$95f56dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Whose stories are they? From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Jacqui Smith wrote: >Whose story is it? Is it one person's, or that of the entire group? > >The best definition of role-playing I know comes from a man who has to be >one of the best GMs on the planet. I refer to Professor MAR Barker, the >developer of "Empire of the Petal Throne". He defines role-playing as >"Cooperative interactive oral fiction". Now, for the purposes of this >discussion the key words are "cooperative" and "interactive". If the >players have no influence on the outcome of the story, then it is neither >cooperative or interactive. It is a novel, not a role-playing game. And not >a very good novel either, because the plot would be driving the characters, >rather than the characters driving the plot. What defines a good novel is something more than character driven or plot driven stories. Either are as valid as the other, excluding all other variables. In an ideal world, they are dynamically balanced against each other. My own definition of roleplaying is that it is 'a dynamic platform where players tell the stories of their characters, and the DM tells the story of the world' But, in any case, the issue here is who owns the stories. I don't think there is any ownership of stories. A DM, however, is forced to contrive a story that exists before the players enter their world, and that continues after they leave it. Most of the work of DMing is working out what makes for an interesting, exciting story. A player isn't forced to the same kind of effort. To be fair, a DM must enjoy the effort, but that in no way diminishes the fact that the contributions of a DM are greater than a player's when it comes to the story side of things. > >Of course this means that the GM cannot afford to be inflexible, or so >protective of their little domain that the players cannot change it through >their characters' actions. I try to make the stories I GM such that the >players feel that their characters have made a change in the world we have >shared together, hopefully a change for the better - and I also hope that >they have had the opportunity to develop their characters in a positive >way. Yes. In large part, the world has to be malleable to the changes that the players bring. If the players accidentally kill the local monarch, then that might be fine. If, on the other hand, they are about to flush all of the mana out of the world, irrevocably rendering it magicless, perhaps you may need to reconsider the effect. A DM MUST maintain a sense of the integrity of their work. This may mean executing some extreme editorial control, because it is important for the particular kind of story that they run. I'm not talking about fudging die rolls, or suspending a rule out of common sense. I'm talking about whether or not one or more rules create effects that do or don't usefully contribute to the theme or idea of the story that you're telling. A DM ought to have a sense of responsibility to a player, to make sure they are having a good time. Within the confines of the Guild, they need to have a sense of responsibility to the next DM, so that that DM can understand what has gone before. But, undoubtedly, the greatest responsibility that the DM has is to their own story. The point of the excercise of role-playing is to take part in a story telling excercise. It is surely co-operative, as Jacqui has said, and definitely interactive. As she continues to say, the players must be able to mark the world in some fashion. Both the world, and the players must leave impressions on each other. Wounds are good. So is xp. At some point, however, the DM MUST excercise some critical function about what they want to have in their story. I suppose the default state is that we accept everything until we see something that we don't like, and we exclude it. For example, I can't abide a frozen initiative system. It doesn't create an interesting sense of tension for me. Therefore, it is incumbent upon me to make it work in way that I want. Now, I may accept the suggestions of players, but I won't be bound by them. This isn't a voting issue, except with their feet. Sure, if lots of people suggested a particular method, I'd look at it closely. But, I would make the decision based on whether or not it was good for my game. Yes, there is a quality of sharingness to the stories that we create with each other. But the role of the DM IS more akin to novel writing or screenwrighting. And, a player never contributes like that. There contribution is as performers. Mind you, the back story of the character could be said to be like writing a novel. But, since that story is revealed through the performance of the character, it oughtn't to be delivered in the same way as a novel. A DM might spend some time describing the inner workings of a particular NPC, and it might have similarities to character exposition in a novel. A player doesn't have the same lattitude of expression. There is no judgment as to which is the greater artistic endeavour, here. It is just that the scope and amplitude of them are different. Simply put, a player is in the eye of the audience about one seventh of the time. A DM is in the eye of the audience all of the time. A player has to work harder with the material to hand (their character) to create the same kind of impression. The DM must allow the players to create an impact on the game. On the other hand, they must make sure that the impact is something that is reasonable for their story. One could, I suppose, allow the players to cause any change to your story. But, in that case the development of one's game would become hodge-podge and graceless. Where the line is drawn is a matter for individual DMs, although my advice would be to allow the players to make as much impact as possible, and then go a little bit further. Out of simple fear, we have a tendency to limit ourselves. Every time we succeed, we open ourselves to greater levels of story telling. The fear of failure often denies us the opportunity of even trying. -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Jul 28 14:50:55 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id OAA13964; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 14:31:58 +1200 Received: from smtp4.ihug.co.nz (smtp4.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.5]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id OAA13961 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 14:31:55 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p149-tnt2.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.245.149]) by smtp4.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id OAA02037 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 14:31:21 +1200 Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 14:27:00 +1200 Message-ID: <01bff83b$4f45da00$95f56dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Purification From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tom Mason wrote: >I have a character, Goran Axebiter, Dwarven Fighter that I am currently >working with. I would like to know if it is possible to set up a form of >'fighter' purification. > >At the moment he is a Rank 4 warrior and I am training him to rank 10 as >quickly as possible - he has only been on four adventures so far. I would >like to use a fighter purification ability with rank 10 unarmed combat. As a >pure fighter, Goran, doesn't really stand a chance against a magic user, >especially since seeing he is afraid of magic. > >What sort of process do we need to go through to develop this idea. I am >sure this idea has been put forward in the past and I would like to know if >anyone has succeeded in this. This would enable me to create my own >character better. What are you trying to do? I mean, why do you want to have Purification, and Rank 10 Unarmed Combat? You have me completely stumped. -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Jul 28 14:55:52 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id OAA14035; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 14:40:33 +1200 Received: from smtp4.ihug.co.nz (smtp4.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.5]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id OAA14032 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 14:40:30 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p149-tnt2.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.245.149]) by smtp4.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id OAA03147 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 14:39:56 +1200 Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 14:35:34 +1200 Message-ID: <01bff83c$81f7f360$95f56dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Fairness, to be or not to be From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Martin Dickson wrote: >Jim Arona wrote: >> The reason is that a government merely supports the wishes of the people >> that they represent. They don't have the power to change the law of gravity, >> for example. In a role-playing game, we can make those kinds of decisions. > >... > >> A player can't say, for example, that they choose not to be affected by >> Hellfire, because it's a stupid spell. They might be right about it being a >> stupid spell, but if the spell that has impacted on them is, in fact, >> Hellfire, then they're in trouble. > >This is not or need not be a universal constant in roleplaying and several RPG >systems allow the players the ability (albeit usually limited) to ignore the >Hellfire or change the law of gravity. > >"Hero points" or their equivalent are one mechanism by which this is achieved -- >the player gains points for various things and "burns" them in order to have >greater influence within the story, to effectively break the world rules. For >example, a fall that should kill a PC, (according to the rules), could be turned >into a much less serious injury through lucky happenstance. Another approach was >what TORG took -- giving players cards that were essentially "get out of jail >free"/"change gravity for a little while" sort of things, that said things like >"Play this when the party is lost... an X comes and rescues you". That's true, but we don't allow them in DQ, as much as I campaigned for them. And, in any case, the rules that cover the use of those kinds of abilities often limit when they can be used. EarthDawn, for example, tells a player when they can use karma on a particular ability. Sometimes, you can, sometime you can't. >These mechanisms give some measure of gameworld altering power to the players >(although it could be argued that they do not allow player to play outside the >rules, but rather extend the rules into game manipulation). > >Perhaps they detract from the ability of the GM to tell their story -- perhaps >they impact on the "divine right" of GMs. But to suggest that it such >mechanisms do not, or cannot, exist in roleplaying would be inaccurate. I have never found it so. Mostly, what they represent is a sense of effort from the player. I think DQ would benefit from such an idea, profoundly. In any case, there are players who have similar abilities, now. But, to clarify my point, if a DM makes a ruling, then the player has a pretty limited opportunity to counter it. In DQ as it stands, if a DM says your character has been targetted by Hellfire, then you have been targetted by Hellfire. Sure, a player might pull out an item that says 'this character is not a legal target of Hellfire', but that's exceptional. Even if we changed the game to allow Hero or Fate points or whatever, the situation would still be the same. The player doesn't have discretionary control of the ruleset. -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Jul 28 15:51:49 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id PAA14558; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 15:36:16 +1200 Received: from smtp4.ihug.co.nz (smtp4.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.5]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id PAA14555 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 15:36:11 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p149-tnt2.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.245.149]) by smtp4.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id PAA10000 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 15:35:37 +1200 Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 15:31:17 +1200 Message-ID: <01bff844$49fc4f80$95f56dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Test This is just rubbish. Delete it. From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Jul 28 16:02:38 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id PAA14616; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 15:44:27 +1200 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (smtp2.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.8]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id PAA14613 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 15:44:24 +1200 Received: from writer (203-109-144-43.ihug.net [203.109.144.43]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id PAA22116 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 15:43:48 +1200 Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 15:43:48 +1200 Message-Id: <200007280343.PAA22116@smtp2.ihug.co.nz> X-Sender: fiona@pop.ihug.co.nz X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: Fairness, to be or not to be From: "Fiona M.M.Cole" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz At 13:03 28/07/00 +1200, you wrote: >Keith Smith wrote: >>> Well, the point I'm making that the only value of using the views of >the >>>playership as a yard stick of improvement is that they have too much to >gain >>>to offer an disinterested opinion. >> >>Maybe, but if they can offer any improvement then it behooves us, as GMs, >>to listen to them. > > The problem is that you endlessly wade through dross to find the gold. > Yes, if someone comes up with something, then we should look into it. >But all that listening to a lot of voices saying the same thing is that it >rewards conservatism. > When you give people a voice, then they expect to be heard, and their >opinions attended to. And, people who are subjected to those opinions are >pressured by them. That is the way government works, for example. > This is way off the topic, but we have on our law books, currently, a >lot of criminal law that refers to illegal drugs. And, yet, the only reason >that there is an illegal trade in drugs is because we have made profitable, >by outlawing it. If the drugs could be bought safely, over a counter, then >organised crime would have no means to make money at it. They would have to >go back to making money with gambling and prostitution. > Nevertheless, because our country is a democratic one, and people feel >strongly about illegal drugs, then it is illegal. Even thought it makes no >sense to make drug use illegal. > Now, while a population can support that sort of thing (there have been >lots of strange forms of government down through the years...Sparta has >always struck me as being very odd), a game cannot. > The reason is that a government merely supports the wishes of the people >that they represent. They don't have the power to change the law of gravity, >for example. > In a role-playing game, we can make those kinds of decisions. > The game engine has to be rigid enough that it provides enough support >that the players and the DM know what each other mean, and yet flexible >enough so that a variety of different stories can be told. > This isn't the sort of issue that we just hand over to all of our >players and say 'You decide'. Sure, there might be an issue or two that we >could do that with. But, it would have to be unusual. > Yes, a good idea is a good idea, whatever its source. > Should we blindly accept the contributions of players? No. Because, as >I've said before, they have too much to gain or lose. > And, finally, whatever is decided here is only discretionary. A DM may >choose to suspend a rule because it conflicts with his game in some way. I >can find plenty of justifications for why a particular effect does or >doesn't work. Or I can simply say that a given rule makes no sense to me, >and I will not play it. > A player is not in that position. A player can't say, for example, that >they choose not to be affected by Hellfire, because it's a stupid spell. >They might be right about it being a stupid spell, but if the spell that has >impacted on them is, in fact, Hellfire, then they're in trouble. > The only real choice a player has, as far as this sort of thing is >concerned, is to choose whether or not they will play in it. Once committed >to that choice, then they are bound by the choices the DM makes. > On the other hand, a DM that abuses the trust that a player gives them >is going to have difficulty find people to play in their game. > As a generalisation, a player doesn't have the skills, or the point of >view that allows them to look at the game as a whole, and determine what is >best for it. To give every one a vote is to court trenchant, unexamined >conservatism, because the playership outnumbers the Gods, and their interest >lies in areas other than the development of the game. > If that were not the case, would we have seen Fiona's complaints about >altering Quickness? She admits that she is inspired by a desire to protect >her character. She raises only one point that has an impact outside of the >interests of Silken, and that is that Quickness makes E&E mages special. > The rest are all about how important it is to Silken. > There's enough noise in the signal now. Do we really need to add to it? > > > >-- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- > > -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Jul 28 16:35:33 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id QAA15205; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 16:22:41 +1200 Received: from smtp4.ihug.co.nz (smtp4.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.5]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id QAA15202 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 16:22:38 +1200 Received: from writer (203-109-144-43.ihug.net [203.109.144.43]) by smtp4.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id QAA15873 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 16:22:01 +1200 Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 16:22:01 +1200 Message-Id: <200007280422.QAA15873@smtp4.ihug.co.nz> X-Sender: fiona@pop.ihug.co.nz X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Outraged of Mt Albert From: "Fiona M.M.Cole" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > So, I suggest the analogy again, perhaps this time in a light that you >can make sense of. I don't know Jim, we are talking vast yawning abysses of intelligence that you expect me to be able to leap > If you were sick, would you expect your doctor to ballot the other >patients in the waiting room to determine what was wrong with you? no my mind is too shallow to comprehend the relevance.Are these people that I know or just chance acquaintances? Are any of them working for drug companies? Have I ever felt my Doctor might be making up a diagnosis in her head before? Am I already late for my hair appointment? >> >>Thank you for clearing that up for me Jim.I shall get my Rosette > >I shall get my overcoat and bomb. I knew about the overcoat and I've harboured grave concerns about the bomb for quite some time. >> >> >>> Even in view of the fact that the game would be improved, you would >>>rather it remain the same so that your character could have a spell that >>>just about EVERY E&E mage has. Where is the individuation in that? E and E college is the least important aspect of my particular character.Individuality is gained through actions and interactions with NPCs and other players. I speak in defence of not fiddling with Quickness from the perspective of a player who did not play DQ for 3 years. I came back to find essentially the same game with some alarming tweaks was still being played and very quickly was inhabiting the world and my character was able to pretty much pick up and go. Your arguments that the game needs to change to grow do have merit however there is also great value in the familiarity of the world and how it works. I don't want to spend half a session while everybody consults various editions of rule changes to see who does what when. I want to play and have fun.Torment the DM, cause the fall of the Western Church, disrupt plot lines.That sort of thing. Quickness may be annoying to DMs in combat, it may be very prevalent and there may be pressure to learn and Rank it. On the plus side EVERYBODY in the DQ world currently knows how it works. Most of us have at least an idea of how it works when some players or NPCs are also Slowed. Aside from getting rid of both Quickness and Slowness which nobody seems keen to do I cannot see how a change which will take ages to incorporate and be played equally and fairly by all DMs is of benefit to the game. > No. It was one of the suggestions. There were others, but it seems that >in your frenzy, you haven't chosen to discuss them. My frenzy? I'm in a frenzy? I thought it was barely a hissy fit, now I'll have to reschedule my tantrums for the whole week. > The reason for this is that otherwise, an E&E mage has to be considered >as factor in every game that is run, and sometimes, that's just not >reasonable. This creates an unusual pressure on the DM to manufacture >alternative ways of allowing tough NPCs to have access to magic that allows >enhanced action choices. mmmm no, have no better response to this than...Nonsense. If you really want to screw them just let them kill themselves through greed and overconfidence.The answer to tough player characters is not NPC escalation.Don't get faster and tougher, get more cunning. > Now, there's nothing particularly wrong to responding to game pressures. >But, they are a useful signal as far as indicating whether or not the game >is moving in a direction that is natural for it to go. > Not all stories support the idea of E&E mages. And, that's okay. But, >Quickness, on the other hand, is such a generically useful ability that the >DM is forced to include it amongst their NPCs repertoire in one way or >another. And, it is this that I object to. I don't want to have to include >the effect in every NPC I generate. On the other hand, I'm forced to >consider it at medium to high levels of the game. > It's boring, Fiona. It limits the stories I can tell. I have to concede a lack of recent DQ DMing experience.Perhaps this is true now.When I did DM I did not feel the need to have NPC's with Quickness. A nice slippery log over a big hole sorted out all kinds of problems. > > Then you are blind, Fiona. Extremely myopic it's true :-) You respond to game pressures whether you >know it or not. Other players do, too. To say that you are somehow immune to >this observable effect is to imagine that you are elementally different to >all of the other players. But I do imagine that. > It's not a question of feebleness, in any case. That's just an attempt >to cloud the issue with emotion. You say that like that's a bad thing. A player responds to game pressures >because, in large part, they observe some value in doing so. You have >responded to game pressure by ranking Quickness. It's a useful spell, with a >ridiculously low EM for what it does. It allows you to contribute to the >game. Actually I like to think it's only one of many ways I do >>(Not really outraged, but most gratified by trouble stirred, cheers Jim:-)) > > I wonder what it cost you to say that, Fiona...I would love to hear the >grinding of your teeth... It costs me nothing at all you gratuitous rabble rouser. I like a good argument as much as you do. And I never never grind my teeth. It wears down the biting edges. Fi PS I am however outraged that the rich motherload of Martin's orange leotard has been ignored. Good grief people don't you want to know if it's one of those shiny one piece ones or perhaps a high on the thigh number with contrasting tights? Lets get some high minded debate going here please enough of this Quickness nonsense -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Jul 28 17:20:27 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id RAA15535; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 17:10:38 +1200 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id RAA15532 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 17:10:34 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p26-tnt2.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.245.26]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id RAA16183 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 17:09:57 +1200 Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 17:05:28 +1200 Message-ID: <01bff851$72a4b6e0$LocalHost@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Outraged of Mt Albert From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fiona M.Cole wrote: >no my mind is too shallow to comprehend the relevance.Are these people that >I know or just chance acquaintances? Are any of them working for drug >companies? Have I ever felt my Doctor might be making up a diagnosis in her >head before? >Am I already late for my hair appointment? O, Fiona. *stamps foot* > > >>> >>>Thank you for clearing that up for me Jim.I shall get my Rosette >> >>I shall get my overcoat and bomb. > >I knew about the overcoat and I've harboured grave concerns about the bomb >for quite some time. Be afraid, Fiona...Be very afraid... > >E and E college is the least important aspect of my particular >character.Individuality is gained through actions and interactions with NPCs >and other players. >I speak in defence of not fiddling with Quickness from the perspective of a >player who did not play DQ for 3 years. I came back to find essentially the >same game with some alarming tweaks was still being played and very quickly >was inhabiting the world and my character was able to pretty much pick up >and go. > >Your arguments that the game needs to change to grow do have merit however >there is also great value in the familiarity of the world and how it works. >I don't want to spend half a session while everybody consults various >editions of rule changes to see who does what when. I'm not actually referring to the listed ruleset, here. But, in any case, that's going to change, inevitably. >I want to play and have fun.Torment the DM, cause the fall of the Western >Church, disrupt plot lines.That sort of thing. > >Quickness may be annoying to DMs in combat, it may be very prevalent and >there may be pressure to learn and Rank it. > >On the plus side EVERYBODY in the DQ world currently knows how it works. >Most of us have at least an idea of how it works when some players or NPCs >are also Slowed. > >Aside from getting rid of both Quickness and Slowness which nobody seems >keen to do I cannot see how a change which will take ages to incorporate and >be played equally and fairly by all DMs is of benefit to the game. Well, first of all, Slowness is more a pain in the arse to administer than Quickness ever is. As a result, NPCs rank E&E Special over the General. As far as making a change, they DO take ages, and there are always occasions for false starts. Whether or not the change is for Quickness or some other game effect. >My frenzy? >I'm in a frenzy? >I thought it was barely a hissy fit, now I'll have to reschedule my tantrums >for the whole week. You schedule them? I thought they just came upon you... > >> The reason for this is that otherwise, an E&E mage has to be considered >>as factor in every game that is run, and sometimes, that's just not >>reasonable. This creates an unusual pressure on the DM to manufacture >>alternative ways of allowing tough NPCs to have access to magic that allows >>enhanced action choices. > >mmmm no, have no better response to this than...Nonsense. If you really want >to screw them just let them kill themselves through greed and >overconfidence.The answer to tough player characters is not NPC >escalation.Don't get faster and tougher, get more cunning. An answer is not NPC escalation. It's not THE answer. It's not without some merit, I agree, but it's not the only way. And, eventually, you exhaust cunning devices and conceits, and you end up threatening suspension of disbelief. If the game forces the DM to create more and more rationalisations that defeat Quickness, then the problem is best solved at the root. > >> It's boring, Fiona. It limits the stories I can tell. > >I have to concede a lack of recent DQ DMing experience.Perhaps this is true >now.When I did DM I did not feel the need to have NPC's with Quickness. A >nice slippery log over a big hole sorted out all kinds of problems. Well, clearly, you're just too damned hot for words, Fiona. But, then, we could decide that we shouldn't touch the game engine at all, that it was somehow sacrosanct, and work within the given rules structure. Still boring. > >You respond to game pressures whether you >>know it or not. Other players do, too. To say that you are somehow immune to >>this observable effect is to imagine that you are elementally different to >>all of the other players. > >But I do imagine that. > >> It's not a question of feebleness, in any case. That's just an attempt >>to cloud the issue with emotion. > >You say that like that's a bad thing. It's not a useful thing, that's all. >PS I am however outraged that the rich motherload of Martin's orange leotard >has been ignored. Good grief people don't you want to know if it's one of >those shiny one piece ones or perhaps a high on the thigh number with >contrasting tights? Another attempt to derail the issue, Fiona....Mind you, forensic art critics are asking some pretty probing questions.... -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Jul 28 17:58:47 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id RAA15839; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 17:55:39 +1200 Received: from smtp4.ihug.co.nz (smtp4.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.5]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id RAA15836 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 17:55:35 +1200 Received: from writer (203-109-144-43.ihug.net [203.109.144.43]) by smtp4.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id RAA27469 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 17:54:57 +1200 Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 17:54:57 +1200 Message-Id: <200007280554.RAA27469@smtp4.ihug.co.nz> X-Sender: fiona@pop.ihug.co.nz X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: Outraged of Mt Albert From: "Fiona M.M.Cole" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz >O, Fiona. *stamps foot* hehe..ah my work here is done. >>>>Thank you for clearing that up for me Jim.I shall get my Rosette >>> >>>I shall get my overcoat and bomb. >> >>I knew about the overcoat and I've harboured grave concerns about the bomb >>for quite some time. > >Be afraid, Fiona...Be very afraid... umm....No >>I have to concede a lack of recent DQ DMing experience.Perhaps this is true >>now.When I did DM I did not feel the need to have NPC's with Quickness. A >>nice slippery log over a big hole sorted out all kinds of problems. > > Well, clearly, you're just too damned hot for words, Fiona. Bit slow on the uptake aren't you? But, then, >we could decide that we shouldn't touch the game engine at all, that it was >somehow sacrosanct, and work within the given rules structure. > Still boring. I don't agree >>PS I am however outraged that the rich motherload of Martin's orange >leotard >>has been ignored. Good grief people don't you want to know if it's one of >>those shiny one piece ones or perhaps a high on the thigh number with >>contrasting tights? > >Another attempt to derail the issue, Fiona....Mind you, forensic art critics >are asking some pretty probing questions.... Go on you want to know about the tights too. I mean imagine how LONG they would have to be.The darning would be horrific Fi -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Jul 28 18:13:51 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id SAA15936; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 18:06:35 +1200 Received: from defacto.peace.co.nz (fwuser@[202.14.141.233] (may be forged)) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id SAA15933 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 18:06:31 +1200 Message-ID: <39812251.E855A9A6@peace.com> Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 18:04:01 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Outraged of Mt Albert From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > >>PS I am however outraged that the rich motherload of Martin's orange > >leotard has been ignored.,,, > > > >Another attempt to derail the issue, Fiona....Mind you, forensic art critics > >are asking some pretty probing questions.... > > Go on you want to know about the tights too.... Arrrggghhhh. Its a Unitard! Its lycra, and its Orange!! You critics are sucking me dry!!! I just want to be free to create!!!! -- _/_/ Peace Software New Zealand Ltd Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com _/ Martin Dickson Fax : +64-9-373-0401 Analyst Phone: +64-9-373-0400 -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Jul 28 21:43:48 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id VAA18357; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 21:42:43 +1200 Received: from smtp4.ihug.co.nz (smtp4.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.5]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id VAA18354 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 21:42:39 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p151-tnt2.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.245.151]) by smtp4.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id VAA12509 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 21:42:04 +1200 Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 21:37:31 +1200 Message-ID: <01bff877$73ed6e40$97f56dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Outraged of Mt Albert From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fiona M.M.Cole wrote: > But, then, >>we could decide that we shouldn't touch the game engine at all, that it was >>somehow sacrosanct, and work within the given rules structure. >> Still boring. > >I don't agree That's it? That's all you have to offer as a counter? Talk about yawning abysses... -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sat Jul 29 00:13:51 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id AAA19243; Sat, 29 Jul 2000 00:00:30 +1200 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (smtp2.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.8]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id AAA19240 for ; Sat, 29 Jul 2000 00:00:27 +1200 Received: from writer (203-109-144-43.ihug.net [203.109.144.43]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id AAA27475 for ; Sat, 29 Jul 2000 00:00:19 +1200 Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 00:00:19 +1200 Message-Id: <200007281200.AAA27475@smtp2.ihug.co.nz> X-Sender: fiona@pop.ihug.co.nz X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: Outraged of Mt Albert From: "Fiona M.M.Cole" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz >> >>I don't agree > > That's it? That's all you have to offer as a counter? Talk about yawning >abysses... yes it must look an awful long way up from down there Fi -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sat Jul 29 07:13:45 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id HAA21745; Sat, 29 Jul 2000 07:07:16 +1200 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id HAA21742 for ; Sat, 29 Jul 2000 07:07:11 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p167-tnt2.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.245.167]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id HAA24671 for ; Sat, 29 Jul 2000 07:06:52 +1200 Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 07:02:14 +1200 Message-ID: <01bff8c6$576f7ac0$a7f56dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Outraged of Mt Albert From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz -----Original Message----- From: Fiona M.M.Cole To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Date: Saturday, 29 July 2000 00:18 Subject: Re: Outraged of Mt Albert > >>> >>>I don't agree >> >> That's it? That's all you have to offer as a counter? Talk about yawning >>abysses... > >yes it must look an awful long way up from down there O, yaboosucks backatcha.... -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sat Jul 29 16:58:45 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id QAA25377; Sat, 29 Jul 2000 16:55:40 +1200 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (smtp2.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.8]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id QAA25374 for ; Sat, 29 Jul 2000 16:55:36 +1200 Received: from ihug.co.nz (p76-tnt5.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.194.76]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id QAA04992 for ; Sat, 29 Jul 2000 16:55:03 +1200 Message-ID: <39826398.F796606F@ihug.co.nz> Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 16:54:48 +1200 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en]C-CCK-MCD Ihug (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Whose stories are they? From: William Dymock To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Jacqui Smith wrote > > Whose story is it? Is it one person's, or that of the entire group? As far as I am concerned it is my story when I'm GMing. After all I do all the work. I come up with the background, plot, major NPCs (and all that entails) and supporting characters. A player brings one character and as far as I'm concerned most of them are indistinguishable. Half the time they don't care and will not remember two weeks into the next session. Of course the blame for this is not all theirs. Games which stretched my suspension of disbelief over an event horizon spring to mind. Most of these problems rise from the almost insane conventions DQ operates under. For example while the PCs are heroes the game forces them to be money grubbing mercs (or mana-grubbing). Another is that the low retirement rate means you end up with absurdly powerful characters. While having an ubermensch/uberwench is satisfying (big zorch effects are a power high) it gets silly after a while. How many evil galactic overlords are there to defeat? Because there is no 'heroic death/honorable retirement' bonus for PCs there is a tendency towards cowardice and a lack of risk taking. Many character 'upgrade options' depend on vast amounts of cash. This only reinforces the scummy mercs at the expense of actual heroes. There is a superabundance of magic items exerbated by the fact that few are of worthy of the danger experienced to get them. If that was the case then the roll of honor would be a lot longer. For many reasons players undervalue their character's power. This results in players claiming their 20 adventure character with more gizmos than the bat-cave is 'only medium level'. Why do I mention these? Because they drive me crazy when I design an adventure. For some reason everyone expects to survive and return with a new magic item to go with the baker's dozen they currently have. Almost no PC will decide to stay in the area indefinitely unless the is something in it for them on a power basis (Ben's character is an exception). My antagonists are supposed to deal with seven(or so) mana-terrorists armed with every conceivable weapon from energy rifles to memes. Somehow I find it difficult to accept that all mages have several spells at rank 20 to give them a fighting chance. I think the game should be a lot more dangerous and with fewer rewards. On the other pseudo pod characters could be generated at higher levels as long as the player acted responsibly and played the PC at that level and not below. The entire accountancy exercise of upkeep could be waived if a player desires (again responsibility comes into play). On changing the rules I will only mention that the horror is such that I often consider changing the game. -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sat Jul 29 17:58:45 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id RAA25653; Sat, 29 Jul 2000 17:44:45 +1200 Received: from smtp4.ihug.co.nz (smtp4.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.5]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id RAA25650 for ; Sat, 29 Jul 2000 17:44:42 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p174-tnt2.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.245.174]) by smtp4.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id RAA27479 for ; Sat, 29 Jul 2000 17:44:03 +1200 Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 17:39:25 +1200 Message-ID: <01bff91f$5b696740$aef56dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Whose stories are they? From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz -----Original Message----- From: William Dymock To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Date: Saturday, 29 July 2000 16:58 Subject: Re: Whose stories are they? >As far as I am concerned it is my story when I'm GMing. After all I do all the >work. Maybe so. But can you protect it so that no-one else can tell the story, or a story very like it? >Most of these problems rise from the almost insane conventions DQ operates >under. >For example while the PCs are heroes the game forces them to be money grubbing >mercs (or mana-grubbing). Agreed. >Another is that the low retirement rate means you end up with absurdly powerful >characters. While having an ubermensch/uberwench is satisfying (big zorch >effects are a power high) it gets silly after a while. How many evil galactic >overlords are there to defeat? As many as there are threats to the universe, William. That is one, very common story. It has to be factored into character development. >Because there is no 'heroic death/honorable retirement' bonus for PCs there is a >tendency towards cowardice and a lack of risk taking. Agreed. And, at the same time, there is precious little reward for proactivity. That's a weakness of DMing, not just the structure of the game. >Many character 'upgrade options' depend on vast amounts of cash. This only >reinforces the scummy mercs at the expense of actual heroes. Agreed. >There is a superabundance of magic items exerbated by the fact that few are of >worthy of the danger experienced to get them. If that was the case then the roll >of honor would be a lot longer. Nah. That's drivel. There aren't enough tough items in DQ. Most of them are fucked to buggery with stupid or weird side effects. That sword that George came up with is a classic example. Powerful items are fine. They disappear. I've just come from a game where I saw 3 middlingly powerful items go down the gurgler. That was okay, though...The player didn't mind. The alternative was death. We worry too much about how touch PCs are, really. They could afford to be, at least potentially, one hell of a lot tougher than they are. Practically speaking, the player only has to die (in a permanent way) once, for the game to be over for the player. The world has an infinte supply of cannon fodder for the DM to throw at players. >For many reasons players undervalue their character's power. This results in >players claiming their 20 adventure character with more gizmos than the bat-cave >is 'only medium level'. Very true. Very, very true. As William has said on many occasions, a character is as tough as they think they are. They may have pathetic numbers to play with, but there is nothing like an imagination for increasing your contribution to a game. > >Why do I mention these? Because they drive me crazy when I design an adventure. > >For some reason everyone expects to survive and return with a new magic item to >go with the baker's dozen they currently have. They expect to die, and lose magic items? What a gloomy, depressing bunch. Of course they should expect to survive. And, increase in toughness. They shouldn't expect it as a right, which I think is what you're saying... >Almost no PC will decide to stay in the area indefinitely unless the is >something in it for them on a power basis (Ben's character is an exception). I have no idea why this is a problem. Or why Ben is an exception. Why should they stay in the area? Especially if it serves no purpose? >My antagonists are supposed to deal with seven(or so) mana-terrorists armed with >every conceivable weapon from energy rifles to memes. Somehow I find it >difficult to accept that all mages have several spells at rank 20 to give them a >fighting chance. Ah...So? What is your point? That players should choose not to rank their spells in a logical fashion? > >I think the game should be a lot more dangerous and with fewer rewards. On the >other pseudo pod characters could be generated at higher levels as long as the >player acted responsibly and played the PC at that level and not below. The >entire accountancy exercise of upkeep could be waived if a player desires (again >responsibility comes into play). Um...On the one hand, you say that a character is as tough as the player thinks he is. And, on the other, you say that the players should start tougher, but not advance as far. I don't agree. I think players start very low in DQ. (I think the system is stupidly capped at 20, or 10 if it's a skill, or some other number, if it's a weapon. Why we put up with that, I don't know, but we do.) I don't think they progress outside of all reason. As far as danger and rewards are concerned, I don't agree with you, there, either. In comparison with most systems, the pcs in DQ are pretty normal, really. Look at Silverfoam or Axis Dragonmage, for example. They are 18 year old characters. Given the frequency with which they've played over the years, if this were AD&D, they'd have gods knocking on their doors, asking for favours. If it were a game like Torg, they'd have High Lords trembling in whatever they use for footwear. Now, those games are different from DQ, they have a different power level, and a different genre. Nevertheless, some of the characters in the Guild SHOULD be dreadfully powerful. Observably, they're not. One could point a finger at other characters and say 'They are too powerful' I suppose, but I wonder where that leads us. Nowhere very useful, I suspect. The development of the player character should be something that a DM has an eye to. If the player can give you some idea of what they're looking for, then all well and good. If the player tells you their character is looking for 'sorceror' stuff, then I'm afraid my assistance is going to be...el zilcho. Why should I contribute to the development of a character when the player can't get off their arse and tell me what they want? But, the point is that players should develop, and develop powerfully. There's plenty of room in the engine for that. I really don't see what the problem is. -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sun Jul 30 06:43:49 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id GAA30867; Sun, 30 Jul 2000 06:32:25 +1200 Received: from enterprise.iconz.co.nz (enterprise.iconz.co.nz [210.48.22.40]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with SMTP id GAA30864 for ; Sun, 30 Jul 2000 06:32:21 +1200 Received: (qmail 14006 invoked by alias); 29 Jul 2000 18:31:29 -0000 Received: from irc.dragonquest.org.nz (HELO mandos) (210.48.7.49) by enterprise.iconz.co.nz with SMTP; 29 Jul 2000 18:31:29 -0000 Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 06:31:06 +1200 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: RE: Whose stories are they? From: "Mandos D Shadowspawn Esq" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > > Whose story is it? Is it one person's, or > > that of the entire group? > > As far as I am concerned it is my story when > I'm GMing. After all I do all the work. Personally I think it is my world and their story. But I don't like set stories too much and tend more to a working world that the players truck round in. > A player brings one character and as far as > I'm concerned most of them are indistinguishable. > Half the time they don't care and will not remember > two weeks into the next session. This is where experiance chits with details of why the player got such a small amount are required :-) Experiance is one of the ways GM's are supposed to indicate to a player that they need to improve or change their attitudes etc. Unfortunatly many GM's just hand out an average amount to everyone. > Most of these problems rise from the almost insane > conventions DQ operates under. > For example while the PCs are heroes the game > forces them to be money grubbing mercs (or mana-grubbing). It depends on the player. Many players choose adventures not for the rewards but because it sounds fun. However in a 6 player game there is likly to be at least a third of the characters driven by cash and it then effects the game. Also people are not generally hero's you have to give pointers a guide people in the behaviour you expect if you want people to behave in a specific fashion. > Another is that the low retirement rate means you end > up with absurdly powerful characters. While having an > ubermensch/uberwench is satisfying (big zorch > effects are a power high) it gets silly after a while. > How many evil galactic overlords are there to defeat? > Because there is no 'heroic death/honorable retirement' > bonus for PCs there is a tendency towards cowardice and > a lack of risk taking. I again think it is a group dynamics issue. If you have a party with two loud cowards in it the party will be forced to act cowardly. To give everyone input into the game means that everyone gets to put forward an opinion and very rarely does the cowardly option get ignored. The key here is how we all joke about the fine line between brave and stupid in the awards. > Many character 'upgrade options' depend on vast > amounts of cash. This only reinforces the scummy > mercs at the expense of actual heroes. > There is a superabundance of magic items exerbated > by the fact that few are of worthy of the danger > experienced to get them. If that was the case then > the roll of honor would be a lot longer. This I think is a little strange, while the cash cost of items does encourage mercenarial play. Lots of items does increase the liklyhood of heroism. The really high level character do tend to heroism. The medium levels are where the social climbing mercenaries are stuck either enjoying life as a low character for as long as possible or clambering as quickly as possible to high level. I have found that Low and high parties tend to be much more heroic than most mediums. In every medium party there is a coward collecting items to become tough. > For many reasons players undervalue their character's > power. This results in players claiming their 20 > adventure character with more gizmos than the bat-cave > is 'only medium level'. There are three catagories that need to be considered. 1. Players who do not actually know how tough they are. Not everyone memorises the rulebook and knows the best way to get all the bonuses. I know a number of players with tough character that have no idea just how tough they are. 2. Some characters have loads of crap items and spend there Ep so they have few tough spells. People sink EP into the wierdest places. Not all of those places make a character tough. 3. Some people are just big girls blouses. > I think the game should be a lot more > dangerous and with fewer rewards. On the > other pseudo-pod characters could be > generated at higher levels as long as the > player acted responsibly and played the > PC at that level and not below. The > entire accountancy exercise of upkeep > could be waived if a player desires (again > responsibility comes into play). I tried the more dangerous with fewer rewards tack and got the feedback that the players enjoyed the game but were left with no feeling of success. The game does need a balance here. Handing out success and reward for nothing is as bad as not letting the players succeed. I am still hunting the middle ground and those who manage it are great GM's. The best games are those with struggle and pain and suffering but in the end victory. Victory should never be guaranteed but always obtainable. The problem lies in that not all GM's are equal. There will always be people who give something away for nothing and those who take it away again. Human nature is where all the rules fall down :-0) -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sun Jul 30 10:13:46 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id KAA32007; Sun, 30 Jul 2000 10:05:09 +1200 Received: from smtp4.ihug.co.nz (smtp4.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.5]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id KAA32004 for ; Sun, 30 Jul 2000 10:05:05 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p20-tnt2.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.245.20]) by smtp4.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id KAA30913 for ; Sun, 30 Jul 2000 10:04:07 +1200 Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 09:59:18 +1200 Message-ID: <01bff9a8$3e49a920$14f56dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Whose stories are they? From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz George Mitchinson wrote: >Personally I think it is my world and their story. > >But I don't like set stories too much and tend more >to a working world that the players truck round in. I don't think that that's William's point. I have played in his game, and it's a reasonably open campaign. The storyline is active and ongoing, so there is an overarching thrust, but I don't think that it's a game where the 'story' is hardwired. Which is what your post implies. Mind you, I could be wrong. >> A player brings one character and as far as >> I'm concerned most of them are indistinguishable. >> Half the time they don't care and will not remember >> two weeks into the next session. > >This is where experiance chits with details of why the >player got such a small amount are required :-) >Experiance is one of the ways GM's are supposed to >indicate to a player that they need to improve or change >their attitudes etc. Unfortunatly many GM's just hand out >an average amount to everyone. While I think these points are true and useful, I don't think that it makes players remember the story, particularly. Mind you, I agree with George. I would go further and say that the details should be made in a way that all of the players can look at. Xp should be assigned after every game, so that the players have some idea of how they're progressing. Over a thirteen week period, it's pretty hard for a player to be able to tell what they were penalised or rewarded for. >> For example while the PCs are heroes the game >> forces them to be money grubbing mercs (or mana-grubbing). > >It depends on the player. Many players choose adventures >not for the rewards but because it sounds fun. However >in a 6 player game there is likly to be at least a third >of the characters driven by cash and it then effects the >game. Also people are not generally hero's you have to give >pointers a guide people in the behaviour you expect if you >want people to behave in a specific fashion. Um. No. We all know what heroism is, and it's central to fantasy roleplaying. If William has detected a lack of moral fibre in a significant proportion of the pc body, then it is contrary to the genre. Cowardice is its own reward. It leads to a long and fruitful life. Heroism leads to having stories told about you when you eventually get eaten by some big nasty thing. Because of the length of real time that it takes to get anywhere, and, the distance that the player takes their character to reach any given point in terms of development, then William suggests that cowardice is supported by the current game structure than heroism is. I'd say that it wasn't really a matter of depending on the player. The fact is that the Guild genre supports cowardice, and penalises courage. There is a place for the odd 'cowardly' character, but they should be rare. One of the few cowards that are worthwhile adventuring with is Vila. But, that's only because the cowardice is a quirk, not a consuming passion. In any given fight, you can predict that Vila will be at the back. On the other hand, in any given encounter involving fiddling with traps and locks and devices that might take your head off, you can bet he'll be at the front of the party, sticking his slippery little fingers into the tumblers. Cowardice is an extremely hard trait to rationalise. It's also contrary to the nature of the genre. There is room within the game for some cowards, but not much. Certainly not as much as a third. That's just way too high. > >> Another is that the low retirement rate means you end >> up with absurdly powerful characters. While having an >> ubermensch/uberwench is satisfying (big zorch >> effects are a power high) it gets silly after a while. >> How many evil galactic overlords are there to defeat? >> Because there is no 'heroic death/honorable retirement' >> bonus for PCs there is a tendency towards cowardice and >> a lack of risk taking. > >I again think it is a group dynamics issue. If you have a >party with two loud cowards in it the party will be forced >to act cowardly. To give everyone input into the game means >that everyone gets to put forward an opinion and very rarely >does the cowardly option get ignored. The key here is how >we all joke about the fine line between brave and stupid in >the awards. In fact, players worry about stupidity too often. I'm inclined to the view that we get rid of the 'Stupidest Adventurer' award, because it applies a negative pressure. On the other hand, it's the place where the best stories get told at the Guild Meeting. And, seeing that the meeting is usually rushed through to deal with meaninless drivel, and the real meat (the part where the players discuss the games they have played in) gets quickly squared away, in the hopes of some 'important' considerations of efficiency. The kinds of play that are the most interesting are the ones that do the following: Open the game up to something new. To do something that hasn't been thought of before. Display the courage of the character against the horrors that the DM can unleash. Perform another kind of selflessness. Do something really stylish that is within the precincts of the character. (For example, Vila may be a coward, but he'll fight like a cornered rat to get to loot). Yes, intelligent play is to be rewarded. It is useful to have someone who engages the story intelligently. If for no other reason, it allows the DM to introduce other levels of story into the game. Players have a bandwidth, and the more information you throw at them, the closer you come to exceeding it. On the other hand, the greater the bandwidth, the more story elements you can provide them. The more story elements, the wider the scope of the game becomes. In general, however, most of the xp we award goes for things that are unrelated to intelligence. They're things like imaginitiveness, heroism, or an apparent contradiction (say) that exposes more of the character inner workings. >I have found that Low and high parties >tend to be much more heroic than most mediums. In every >medium party there is a coward collecting items to >become tough. Agreed. > >> For many reasons players undervalue their character's >> power. This results in players claiming their 20 >> adventure character with more gizmos than the bat-cave >> is 'only medium level'. > >There are three catagories that need to be considered. > >1. Players who do not actually know how tough they are. >Not everyone memorises the rulebook and knows the best >way to get all the bonuses. I know a number of players >with tough character that have no idea just how tough >they are. Then, they aren't really attending or contributing, are they? I mean, if the DM looks at a character sheet and goes pale, but the player is standing on top of a table because they've seen a mouse, then the player has seriously failed to attend or contribute to the game. They may have some internal character reason for spending their time on tables. But, aside from that... If a player doesn't know, then I suppose the DM must make their toughness obvious to them, somehow. It's not the sort of confusion that should be allowed to continue for any length of time. > >2. Some characters have loads of crap items and spend >there Ep so they have few tough spells. People sink EP >into the wierdest places. Not all of those places make >a character tough. > That's true. But, there must be a sound rationalisation as to why their xp has gone into those weird places. It's not enough for a player to say 'It just seemed right for the character'. That just says to me that the player hasn't addressed those reasons. And, a player that can't articulate the inner workings of their character for a DM is in trouble. For a roleplayer, performing their character means portraying their foibles and traits. The player MUST know what they are, so that they can measure them against each other. Sometimes traits conflict. The player has to know which is more important. Of course, one can be surprised by one's character. We have all, no doubt, been confronted with a situation where we've suddenly realised that, although we thought the character would behave in one way, it is, in fact, required to act in another way altogether. That's fine. The point is that as a player, you can discuss it afterwards, and say WHY the character would do that particular thing. So, while I don't want to see every character developing the same characters, I definitely want the characters to make sense. I mean, a player could choose to limit the development of a spell caster by having them advance all of their General Knowledge to Rank 6. If the only reason that they advance those spells is so that their character won't become too tough, too soon, then it's a failure in terms of characterisation. If the reason is that the character wishes to be able to teach the college, then that's fine. It's an internal reason, as opposed to a deus ex machina. >3. Some people are just big girls blouses. Yes. That is the most likely explanation. I find it hard to believe that players could be so intellectually limited or so contrived that they can't put together an effective character, in one way or another. 'When you exclude all other things, Watson...' >Human nature is where all the rules fall down Yes.So, let us make the rules more human, and the humans, less bound by them. -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sun Jul 30 17:28:45 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id RAA01963; Sun, 30 Jul 2000 17:22:00 +1200 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (smtp2.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.8]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id RAA01960 for ; Sun, 30 Jul 2000 17:21:55 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p246-tnt2.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.245.246]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id RAA01919 for ; Sun, 30 Jul 2000 17:20:48 +1200 Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 17:15:52 +1200 Message-ID: <01bff9e5$3b91c860$f6f56dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_005D_01BFFA49.D0C6A860" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Quickness From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_005D_01BFFA49.D0C6A860 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Here, then, is a summary of the suggestions that people made in response = to changing Quickness. Aside, that is, from the plethora of responses = from Fiona about leaving it exactly as it is. =20 These comments are just the changes that people suggested. =20 Mark Simpson =20 A simple solution would be to re-write the spell so that instead of = giving 2 actions every pulse it gave 3 actions every two pulses, so that every = second pulse the characters (or npc's) got a second action.=20 =20 Fiona M.M Cole =20 Make Quickness unable to be invested. =20 Gordon Lewis =20 We could say that- for anyone who has quickness on them it will take 1 FT per action to do anything active.=20 =20 Sally Jackson =20 Make it uninvestable, or as a compromise, potionable for self only. = =20 =20 =20 My suggestions were: =20 =20 =20 Option 1: Range of the spell is self, only.=20 =20 Option 2: Range of the spell is touch =20 Option 3: The spell becomes a skill or proficiency that anyone can learn: =20 Option 4: The spell changes in no other respect, except that anyone who = operates under the effects of a Quickness loses 2 points of spell FT = every pulse. When they are out of FT, the Quickness ends. =20 What, if any, other suggestions do people have to offer? ------=_NextPart_000_005D_01BFFA49.D0C6A860 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Quickness

Here, then, is a summary of the = suggestions=20 that people made in response to changing Quickness. Aside, that is, = from the=20 plethora of responses from Fiona about leaving it exactly as it=20 is. 

These comments are just the changes that people=20 suggested.

Mark Simpson

A simple solution would be to = re-write the=20 spell so that instead of giving 2 actions
every pulse it gave 3 = actions=20 every two  pulses, so that every second pulse
the characters = (or=20 npc's) got a second action.  

Fiona M.M Cole 

Make Quickness unable to be invested.

Gordon Lewis 

We could say that- for anyone who has quickness on them it = will
take 1=20 FT per action to do anything active.  

Sally Jackson 

Make it uninvestable, or as a compromise, potionable for self = only. =20

 

My suggestions were:

 

Option 1:
    Range of the = spell is=20 self, only. 
 
Option 2:
    Range of the = spell is=20 touch
 
Option 3:
    The spell becomes a skill or=20 proficiency that anyone can learn:
 
Option 4:
    The spell changes in no other = respect,=20 except that anyone who operates under the effects of a Quickness = loses 2=20 points of spell FT every pulse. When they are out of FT, the = Quickness=20 ends.
 
What, if any, other suggestions = do people=20 have to offer?
------=_NextPart_000_005D_01BFFA49.D0C6A860-- -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sun Jul 30 19:13:45 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id TAA02656; Sun, 30 Jul 2000 19:11:26 +1200 Received: from smtp4.ihug.co.nz (smtp4.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.5]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id TAA02653 for ; Sun, 30 Jul 2000 19:11:22 +1200 Received: from paul (203-109-144-174.ihug.net [203.109.144.174]) by smtp4.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id TAA32720 for ; Sun, 30 Jul 2000 19:10:12 +1200 Message-ID: <000a01bffa94$69e54480$1564640a@ihug.co.nz> Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 19:09:18 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01BFFA59.A91014E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Subject: Re: Quickness From: "paul" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: pope.ug@ihug.co.nz This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BFFA59.A91014E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: QuicknessQuickness: How about: Target: Self - doubles actions Target: Others - 1+ 1/3 Ranks. range 10ft + 1 rank. Adds 1 + 1/Rank to = initiatve for each recipient. Doubles actions of others only at Rank 20. May be potioned in which case it acts as a "self". ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BFFA59.A91014E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Quickness
Quickness:
 
How about:
Target: Self - doubles = actions
Target: Others -  1+ 1/3 Ranks. range = 10ft + 1 rank.=20 Adds 1 + 1/Rank to initiatve for each recipient. Doubles actions of = others only=20 at Rank 20.
 
May be potioned in which case it acts = as a=20 "self".
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BFFA59.A91014E0-- -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Jul 31 09:28:49 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id JAA07733; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 09:19:30 +1200 Received: from enterprise.iconz.co.nz (enterprise.iconz.co.nz [210.48.22.40]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with SMTP id JAA07730 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 09:19:25 +1200 Received: (qmail 29356 invoked by alias); 30 Jul 2000 21:17:56 -0000 Received: from irc.dragonquest.org.nz (HELO mandos) (210.48.7.49) by enterprise.iconz.co.nz with SMTP; 30 Jul 2000 21:17:56 -0000 Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 09:17:52 +1200 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: RE: Whose stories are they? From: "Mandos D Shadowspawn Esq" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Mind you, I agree with George. I would go further > and say that the details should be made in a way > that all of the players can look at. Xp should be > assigned after every game, so that the players have > some idea of how they're progressing. Over a thirteen > week period, it's pretty hard for a player to be > able to tell what they were penalised or rewarded for. Currently I take notes each week of the highs and lows and include those in notes to each player with their EP. That way if I do include advice to help the player with their character it can be seen by the next GM who can then watch for improvement. I also have the figures for turning up, roleplaying and contribution detailed so people can get an idea of where they lost EP. What do you think of the idea of including the "Average" amount of EP that could be gained so that the players have something to judge their EP against? > Um. No. We all know what heroism is, and it's central to fantasy > roleplaying. If William has detected a lack of moral fibre in a > significant > proportion of the pc body, then it is contrary to the genre. [SNIP] Cowardice discussion So what can be done about it. We can reward bravery through Ep. How do you design a game that encourages bravery? > >I again think it is a group dynamics issue. If you have a > >party with two loud cowards in it the party will be forced > >to act cowardly. To give everyone input into the game means > >that everyone gets to put forward an opinion and very rarely > >does the cowardly option get ignored. The key here is how > >we all joke about the fine line between brave and stupid in > >the awards. > > In fact, players worry about stupidity too often. > I'm inclined to the view that we get rid of the 'Stupidest > Adventurer' award, because it applies a negative pressure. > On the other hand, it's the place where the best stories get > told at the Guild Meeting. I am of the same view. The idea of makeing the stupidest adventurer pay for the costs associated with the other awards springs to mind. Then you still get to keep the stories :0-) But I cannot see that being a popular option. > Yes, intelligent play is to be rewarded. It is useful > to have someone who engages the story intelligently. If for > no other reason, it allows the DM to introduce other levels > of story into the game. > In general, however, most of the xp we award goes for > things that are unrelated to intelligence. They're things > like imaginitiveness, heroism, or an apparent contradiction > (say) that exposes more of the character inner workings. Maybe we need to look at the EP award and the focus that it is encouraging. The GM's that just throw out a number are not going to care what is changed and other GM's who do work out the numbers could find a system we can all use to better the game direction. > >There are three catagories that need to be considered. > > > >1. Players who do not actually know how tough they are. > >Not everyone memorises the rulebook and knows the best > >way to get all the bonuses. I know a number of players > >with tough character that have no idea just how tough > >they are. > > Then, they aren't really attending or contributing, > are they? > I mean, if the DM looks at a character sheet and goes pale, > but the player is standing on top of a table because > they've seen a mouse, then the player has seriously failed > to attend or contribute to the game. They may have some > internal character reason for spending their time on tables. > But, aside from that... Thats a little overexagerated. Simply there are players with good ranks in weapons and reasonable defences and have good numbers accross the board that do not know thew scale that those numbers belong to. Thus they think they are average fighters when in fact they are great fighters. Thus if they think they are not as good as they are they downgrade the believed level of their character. > If a player doesn't know, then I suppose the DM must make their > toughness obvious to them, somehow. It's not the sort of confusion that > should be allowed to continue for any length of time. Very true. > >Human nature is where all the rules fall down > > > Yes.So, let us make the rules more human, and the humans, > less bound by them. But then you have to allow for human nature in the course of the changes :-) We are doomed! Mandos /s -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Jul 31 09:58:59 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id JAA07929; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 09:46:44 +1200 Received: from qedweb.qed.co.nz ([203.97.23.140] (may be forged)) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id JAA07926 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 09:46:40 +1200 Received: by localhost with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 09:43:47 +1200 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 09:43:46 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain Subject: RE: Quickness From: Stephen Martin To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Or some sort of ritual. e.g. Cast Time: Somewhere between 10 minutes and 1 hour. Duration: x + y per rank hours. Target: Entity or Entities(?) Effect: Increases IV by x + y per rank for the entire duration. Target may exert themselves up to (rank x 2) times during the duration and have an extra action in a pulse. This exertion costs the target 2FT (2EN when FT=0) each time and the IV value of the second action is equal to the rank of the ritual. Possibly cast time linked to number of targets, 20 Minutes for the first target + 10 minutes per additional target. This would mean about 1.5 hours for an average party size. > -----Original Message----- > From: Jim Arona [SMTP:jimarona@ihug.co.nz] > Sent: Sunday, 30 July 2000 17:16 > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Subject: Re: Quickness > > Here, then, is a summary of the suggestions that people made in > response to changing Quickness. Aside, that is, from the plethora of > responses from Fiona about leaving it exactly as it is. > > These comments are just the changes that people suggested. > > -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Jul 31 09:59:44 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id JAA07965; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 09:52:24 +1200 Received: from defacto.peace.co.nz (fwuser@[202.14.141.233] (may be forged)) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id JAA07962 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 09:52:20 +1200 Message-ID: <3984A2D2.571BE98B@peace.com> Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 09:49:06 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Whose stories are they? From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mandos D Shadowspawn Esq wrote: > >> I'm inclined to the view that we get rid of the 'Stupidest Adventurer' > award, because it applies a negative pressure. > > I am of the same view. The idea of makeing the stupidest adventurer pay for > the costs associated with the other awards springs to mind. Part of the difficulty with associating a true penalty with this award is that we would need to verify the actions of the idiot in question -- which would break the character/story mode. (I've heard too many stories told that I as GM know happened in an entirely different way to think that players accurately report the adventure's happenings -- but the stories can be most amusing). Also, a penalty of any sort would change the tone to one of more seriousness. However, some token penalty/booby prize could be both amusing and better get across the idea that stupidity will be commented on, and is not rewarded per se. A Dunce's cap might be nice -- it would even be possible to quickly make one up (physically) and present it to the player the same way that guild script is given for the other awards... they could wear it for the rest of the guild meeting. :) -- _/_/ Peace Software New Zealand Ltd Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com _/ Martin Dickson Fax : +64-9-373-0401 Analyst Phone: +64-9-373-0400 -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Jul 31 10:28:58 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id KAA08337; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 10:25:23 +1200 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id KAA08334 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 10:25:20 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p159-tnt8.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.138.159]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id KAA08790 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 10:23:49 +1200 Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 10:18:51 +1200 Message-ID: <01bffa74$23fd0cc0$049a64d8@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Stupid Adventurers From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Martin Dickson wrote: >Part of the difficulty with associating a true penalty with this award is that >we would need to verify the actions of the idiot in question -- which would >break the character/story mode. (I've heard too many stories told that I as GM >know happened in an entirely different way to think that players accurately >report the adventure's happenings -- but the stories can be most amusing). >Also, a penalty of any sort would change the tone to one of more seriousness. > >However, some token penalty/booby prize could be both amusing and better get >across the idea that stupidity will be commented on, and is not rewarded per se. > >A Dunce's cap might be nice -- it would even be possible to quickly make one up >(physically) and present it to the player the same way that guild script is >given for the other awards... they could wear it for the rest of the guild >meeting. :) I hate this idea. Again, it seeks to make cleverness an important part of role-playing. But, it's not cleverness that we're interested in seeing. What we want is a sense of the shared human condition. Some people are clever, some people are stupid. They're still people. And, the same with characters. A clever player will get rewards enough. They will use their abilities well, they will engage the story at more levels, and they will put information together in a way that gives them a serious advantage. Stupidity, is also its own reward. A player that is stupid won't realise what is happening around them, will use their abilities poorly, and will only be playing on the most superficial levels. I'm not saying that there's no point in having things like 'the Smartest Adventurer' or 'Stupidest Adventurer' awards. What I am saying is that the Stupidest Adventurer makes for the best stories. That is a valuable contribution in its own way. Usually, the stories of the DM fade away and turn to filmy vapour once the players have got back to the Guild. It is only in the Stupidest Adventurer that some small part of it lives on. And, anyway, I, too, have seen situations where the players decided that a particular action was stupid, when I KNEW that it was reasonable. Or, at least, not very stupid. Finally, what are you going to do when a player says 'Fuck off with your funny hat. I'm not wearing it'? Hold them down? What do you say when the Police arrive? 'We were just playing a role-playing game, officer...' -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Jul 31 10:30:39 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id KAA08159; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 10:14:25 +1200 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id KAA08156 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 10:14:22 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p159-tnt8.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.138.159]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id KAA07497 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 10:12:50 +1200 Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 10:07:52 +1200 Message-ID: <01bffa72$9b7dec80$049a64d8@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Whose stories are they? From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz George Mitchinson wrote: >Currently I take notes each week of the highs and lows >and include those in notes to each player with their EP. >That way if I do include advice to help the player with >their character it can be seen by the next GM who can >then watch for improvement. I also have the figures for >turning up, roleplaying and contribution detailed so >people can get an idea of where they lost EP. Yes, so do I. But, if you make a note about a player's performance in a session that was played 10 weeks ago, they may have no real idea what you're talking about. It's too distant in their memories. As you have pointed out, you make a note of the thing that they did that was worth a bonus or penalty. They, on the other hand, will be looking at you with that awful blank expression on their faces. >What do you think of the idea of including the "Average" >amount of EP that could be gained so that the players >have something to judge their EP against? I spreadsheet xp awards. Ah, the wonders of computers and excel. And, I provide them with a critique of their performance, broadly separated into things that I thought were done well, and things that I thought needed work. > >> Um. No. We all know what heroism is, and it's central to fantasy >> roleplaying. If William has detected a lack of moral fibre in a >> significant >> proportion of the pc body, then it is contrary to the genre. > >[SNIP] Cowardice discussion > >So what can be done about it. We can reward bravery through Ep. >How do you design a game that encourages bravery? I don't know of a game that actively supports heroism. Courage is a product of proactivity, and as a matter of reality, people who are proactive are more effective. They limit the choices of their opponent, because their opponent is forced to select a counter, rather than a whole new strategy. In other words, if you choose the ground on which you must fight, your opponent must choose counters that are defined by that ground. Or, to use a western maxim, a good offense is the best defence. In a role-playing game, taking actions puts one in the eye of the DM, more. More things happen to a player who is active, if only because there must be some resolution to that activity. The more things that happen, the greater the chance that the character will contract a rather sudden case of death. The only advice I have to offer, at the moment, anyway, is that the DM must be extremely fair to the story, to make sure that the active player isn't stepped on. Players are story generators, and their actions introduce story elements whenever they take an action. They declare the action, and the DM interprets the responses. In a way, it's like there are two sides of the game. The player commits to an action choice, the DM responds, either with a response to that action, an action that has nothing to do with that action, or both. If there is no declaration, then there is no real story to the action. It just becomes a list of the things that people are doing, or have done. I suppose that the way to look at, say, combat, is to say that it is a little story. The players plan their actions, engage the opposition, meet resistance, suffer reverses (maybe), overcome the resistance (maybe), are overcome by the resistance (maybe), and resolve the situation after the climax (check for wounds, dead players, loot, whatever). If there is no declaration, then the players aren't required to plan, they just react as the situation devolves around them. In other words, the DM describes the situation, and determines initiative. Whoever goes first takes their action, whatever it is, followed by the person who goes next, etc. Both systems are fine for administrating the game, but declarative initiative offers more story telling. > >> >I again think it is a group dynamics issue. If you have a >> >party with two loud cowards in it the party will be forced >> >to act cowardly. To give everyone input into the game means >> >that everyone gets to put forward an opinion and very rarely >> >does the cowardly option get ignored. The key here is how >> >we all joke about the fine line between brave and stupid in >> >the awards. >> >> In fact, players worry about stupidity too often. >> I'm inclined to the view that we get rid of the 'Stupidest >> Adventurer' award, because it applies a negative pressure. >> On the other hand, it's the place where the best stories get >> told at the Guild Meeting. > >I am of the same view. The idea of makeing the stupidest adventurer pay for >the costs associated with the other awards springs to mind. Then you still >get to keep the stories :0-) I'm not. I think we dump too much opprobrium on stupidity. Yes, there are players who make you shake your head. At the same time, you often wish you could have been there to witness their sense of unfolding horror at the new chaos that they unleashed. >> Yes, intelligent play is to be rewarded. It is useful >> to have someone who engages the story intelligently. If for >> no other reason, it allows the DM to introduce other levels >> of story into the game. >> In general, however, most of the xp we award goes for >> things that are unrelated to intelligence. They're things >> like imaginitiveness, heroism, or an apparent contradiction >> (say) that exposes more of the character inner workings. > >Maybe we need to look at the EP award and the focus that it is >encouraging. The GM's that just throw out a number are not >going to care what is changed and other GM's who do work out >the numbers could find a system we can all use to better the >game direction. I don't know that we need to, really. The award system does pretty well. In fact, it was one of the best thought out systems around. It's clear, it identifies the important considerations of awarding xp, and it makes it nice and simple to administer. What else do you see as being important to add to it? > >> >There are three catagories that need to be considered. >> > >> >1. Players who do not actually know how tough they are. >> >Not everyone memorises the rulebook and knows the best >> >way to get all the bonuses. I know a number of players >> >with tough character that have no idea just how tough >> >they are. >> >> Then, they aren't really attending or contributing, >> are they? >> I mean, if the DM looks at a character sheet and goes pale, >> but the player is standing on top of a table because >> they've seen a mouse, then the player has seriously failed >> to attend or contribute to the game. They may have some >> internal character reason for spending their time on tables. >> But, aside from that... > >Thats a little overexagerated. Simply there are players with >good ranks in weapons and reasonable defences and have good >numbers accross the board that do not know thew scale that >those numbers belong to. Thus they think they are average >fighters when in fact they are great fighters. Thus if they >think they are not as good as they are they downgrade the >believed level of their character. No, George. There might be one or two people like that, but that's, in part, because some DMs insist on using NPCs who have skill ranks of 10 or so, when the NPC is a non-entity. Most players know how tough they are, or can make a sound enough estimate, if they make the effort. The fact is that they probably aren't making the effort. There's nothing out there to stop them asking other players or DMs how tough their character is. Except sloth. -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Jul 31 11:03:52 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id KAA08613; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 10:57:16 +1200 Received: from fep4-orange.clear.net.nz (fep4-orange.clear.net.nz [203.97.32.4]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id KAA08610 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 10:57:12 +1200 Received: from comms.maclean.co.nz (b002-m003-p011.acld.clear.net.nz [203.167.198.139]) by fep4-orange.clear.net.nz (1.5/1.7) with ESMTP id KAA24764; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 10:55:40 +1200 (NZST) Received: by comms.maclean.co.nz with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) id ; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 10:33:28 +1200 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 10:33:27 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) Content-Type: text/plain Subject: RE: Purification From: Tom Mason To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz What I am wanting advice on is how can we create a purification for fighters? I was thinking of 1% increase in strike chance per rank and +1 to either MD, AG per five ranks. Tom :-) -----Original Message----- From: Jim Arona [mailto:jimarona@ihug.co.nz] Sent: Friday, 28 July 2000 14:27 To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Subject: Re: Purification Tom Mason wrote: >I have a character, Goran Axebiter, Dwarven Fighter that I am currently >working with. I would like to know if it is possible to set up a form of >'fighter' purification. > >At the moment he is a Rank 4 warrior and I am training him to rank 10 as >quickly as possible - he has only been on four adventures so far. I would >like to use a fighter purification ability with rank 10 unarmed combat. As a >pure fighter, Goran, doesn't really stand a chance against a magic user, >especially since seeing he is afraid of magic. > >What sort of process do we need to go through to develop this idea. I am >sure this idea has been put forward in the past and I would like to know if >anyone has succeeded in this. This would enable me to create my own >character better. What are you trying to do? I mean, why do you want to have Purification, and Rank 10 Unarmed Combat? You have me completely stumped. -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Jul 31 11:17:44 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id LAA09063; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 11:07:46 +1200 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id LAA09058 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 11:07:42 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p159-tnt8.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.138.159]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id LAA13384 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 11:06:02 +1200 Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 11:00:54 +1200 Message-ID: <01bffa7a$0402a6e0$049a64d8@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Purification From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz -----Original Message----- From: Tom Mason To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Date: Monday, 31 July 2000 11:03 Subject: RE: Purification >What I am wanting advice on is how can we create a purification for >fighters? I was thinking of 1% increase in strike chance per rank and +1 to >either MD, AG per five ranks. Why do we need to? -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Jul 31 11:18:42 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id LAA09105; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 11:14:35 +1200 Received: from defacto.peace.co.nz (fwuser@[202.14.141.233] (may be forged)) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id LAA09102 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 11:14:32 +1200 Message-ID: <3984B611.82358EC1@peace.com> Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 11:11:13 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Stupid Adventurers From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Jim Arona wrote: > A player that is stupid won't realise > what is happening around them, will use their abilities poorly, and will > only be playing on the most superficial levels. I thought it was stupid "characters" under comment. There are a number of very smart players who choose to play very dumb characters. > What I am saying is that the Stupidest Adventurer makes for the best stories. Oh, agreed. The story of Dalran running from the Asylum guards yelling "I'm not a Loony! I'm not a Loony!" has to be a classic. Did he do this in the hope of winning "Stupidest"? Dunno, ask Chris. I would suggest however, from the other stories around, that he was intelligently playing his rather dim character in a way that was consistent and created considerable amusement for all concerned. > That is a valuable contribution in its own way. It is, you are right. > Finally, what are you going to do when a player says 'Fuck off with your > funny hat. I'm not wearing it'? Hold them down? What do you say when the > Police arrive? 'We were just playing a role-playing game, officer...' Err... no? I wrote "could wear it", meaning it could be presented to them with the intent of it being wearable and worn... I was not in any way suggesting pressuring a player into anything. I completely agree that the humour that can come from character's ill-conceived actions it is something we should support. The "Guild" as an in-world entity may be less amused by its idiot members -- and there's the oddity. We give out an in-world reward (Guild script) for an action that we want to see in the game, but that would be censured in the world, as opposed to giving an in-game, out-of-world reward... such as EP. Clear as mud? Good, my work here is done. :) -- _/_/ Peace Software New Zealand Ltd Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com _/ Martin Dickson Fax : +64-9-373-0401 Analyst Phone: +64-9-373-0400 -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Jul 31 11:19:31 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id LAA09051; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 11:07:13 +1200 Received: from fclaklmr02.fcl.co.nz ([202.14.23.202] (may be forged)) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with SMTP id LAA09048 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 11:07:09 +1200 Received: from falaklex00.falum.co.nz (10.8.1.28) by fclaklmr02.fcl.co.nz Monday, July 31, 2000 11:01:25 Message-ID: Received: by falaklex00.fcl.co.nz with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 11:04:14 +1200 Message-ID: <311B3C3DD32FD311B33900805F770A7202261451@falaklex00.fcl.co.nz> Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 11:04:13 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01BFFA7A.7A646A00" Subject: RE: Purification From: "Andrew Withy (FAL AKL)" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01BFFA7A.7A646A00 Content-Type: text/plain Its called warrior :) Andrew > -----Original Message----- > From: Tom Mason [SMTP:Tom@maclean.co.nz] > Sent: Monday, July 31, 2000 10:33 AM > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Subject: RE: Purification > > What I am wanting advice on is how can we create a purification for > fighters? I was thinking of 1% increase in strike chance per rank and +1 > to > either MD, AG per five ranks. > > Tom :-) > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jim Arona [mailto:jimarona@ihug.co.nz] > Sent: Friday, 28 July 2000 14:27 > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Subject: Re: Purification > > Tom Mason wrote: > >I have a character, Goran Axebiter, Dwarven Fighter that I > am currently > >working with. I would like to know if it is possible to set > up a form of > >'fighter' purification. > > > >At the moment he is a Rank 4 warrior and I am training him > to rank 10 as > >quickly as possible - he has only been on four adventures > so far. I would > >like to use a fighter purification ability with rank 10 > unarmed combat. As > a > >pure fighter, Goran, doesn't really stand a chance against > a magic user, > >especially since seeing he is afraid of magic. > > > >What sort of process do we need to go through to develop > this idea. I am > >sure this idea has been put forward in the past and I would > like to know if > >anyone has succeeded in this. This would enable me to > create my own > >character better. > > What are you trying to do? I mean, why do you want to > have Purification, > and Rank 10 Unarmed Combat? You have me completely stumped. > > > > -- to unsubscribe see > http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- > > > -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- ------_=_NextPart_001_01BFFA7A.7A646A00 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Purification

Its called warrior = :)

Andrew

    -----Original Message-----
    From:   Tom Mason [SMTP:Tom@maclean.co.nz]
    Sent:   Monday, July 31, 2000 10:33 AM
    To:     dq@dq.sf.org.nz
    Subject:       = RE: Purification

    What I am wanting advice on is how can = we create a purification for
    fighters? I was thinking of 1% = increase in strike chance per rank and +1 to
    either MD, AG per five ranks.

    Tom :-)

            =         -----Original Message-----
            =         From:   Jim Arona [mailto:jimarona@ihug.co.nz]
            =         Sent:   Friday, 28 July 2000 14:27
            =         To:     dq@dq.sf.org.nz
            =         Subject:        Re: = Purification

            =         Tom Mason wrote:
            =         >I have a character, Goran Axebiter, Dwarven Fighter = that I
    am currently
            =         >working with. I would like to know if it is possible = to set
    up a form of
            =         >'fighter' purification.
            =         >
            =         >At the moment he is a Rank 4 warrior and I am = training him
    to rank 10 as
            =         >quickly as possible - he has only been on four = adventures
    so far. I would
            =         >like to use a fighter purification ability with rank = 10
    unarmed combat. As
            =         a
            =         >pure fighter, Goran, doesn't really stand a chance = against
    a magic user,
            =         >especially since seeing he is afraid of = magic.
            =         >
            =         >What sort of process do we need to go through to = develop
    this idea. I am
            =         >sure this idea has been put forward in the past and = I would
    like to know if
            =         >anyone has succeeded in this. This would enable me = to
    create my own
            =         >character better.

            =             What are you trying to do? I mean, = why do you want to
    have Purification,
            =         and Rank 10 Unarmed Combat? You have me completely = stumped.



            =         -- to unsubscribe see
    http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html = --


    -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html = --

------_=_NextPart_001_01BFFA7A.7A646A00-- -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Jul 31 12:02:20 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id LAA09427; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 11:59:18 +1200 Received: from fep4-orange.clear.net.nz (fep4-orange.clear.net.nz [203.97.32.4]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id LAA09424 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 11:59:13 +1200 Received: from comms.maclean.co.nz (i1-u56.acld.clear.net.nz [203.167.242.120]) by fep4-orange.clear.net.nz (1.5/1.7) with ESMTP id LAA03452; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 11:57:38 +1200 (NZST) Received: by comms.maclean.co.nz with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) id ; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 11:45:41 +1200 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 11:45:40 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: Purification From: Tom Mason To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Point taken. Can a non-mage learn purification? =A0 Tom -----Original Message----- From: Andrew Withy (FAL AKL) [mailto:AndrewW@falum.co.nz] Sent: Monday, 31 July 2000 11:04 To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Subject: RE: Purification Its called warrior :)=20 Andrew=20 -----Original Message-----=20 From:=A0=A0 Tom Mason [SMTP:Tom@maclean.co.nz]=20 Sent:=A0=A0 Monday, July 31, 2000 10:33 AM=20 To:=A0=A0=A0=A0 dq@dq.sf.org.nz=20 Subject:=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 RE: Purification=20 What I am wanting advice on is how can we create a purification for=20 fighters? I was thinking of 1% increase in strike chance per rank and = +1 to=20 either MD, AG per five ranks.=20 Tom :-)=20 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 -----Original Message----- = =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 From:=A0=A0 Jim Arona [ = mailto:jimarona@ihug.co.nz]=20 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Sent:=A0=A0 Friday, 28 July = 2000 14:27=20 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 To:=A0=A0=A0=A0 = dq@dq.sf.org.nz=20 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 = Subject:=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Re: Purification=20 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Tom Mason wrote:=20 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >I have a character, Goran = Axebiter, Dwarven Fighter that I=20 am currently=20 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >working with. I would like = to know if it is possible to set up a form of=20 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >'fighter' purification.=20 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >=20 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >At the moment he is a Rank = 4 warrior and I am training him=20 to rank 10 as=20 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >quickly as possible - he = has only been on four adventures=20 so far. I would=20 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >like to use a fighter = purification ability with rank 10=20 unarmed combat. As=20 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 a=20 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >pure fighter, Goran, = doesn't really stand a chance against=20 a magic user,=20 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >especially since seeing he = is afraid of magic.=20 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >=20 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >What sort of process do we = need to go through to develop=20 this idea. I am=20 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >sure this idea has been = put forward in the past and I would like to know if=20 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >anyone has succeeded in = this. This would enable me to=20 create my own=20 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >character better.=20 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0 What are you = trying to do? I mean, why do you want to=20 have Purification,=20 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 and Rank 10 Unarmed Combat? = You have me completely stumped.=20 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 -- to unsubscribe see=20 http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html --=20 -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html --=20 -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Jul 31 12:18:19 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id MAA09537; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 12:08:48 +1200 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id MAA09534 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 12:08:45 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p159-tnt8.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.138.159]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id MAA20868 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 12:07:12 +1200 Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 12:02:16 +1200 Message-ID: <01bffa82$96dfb900$049a64d8@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Purification From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz -----Original Message----- From: Tom Mason To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Date: Monday, 31 July 2000 12:01 Subject: RE: Purification Point taken. Can a non-mage learn purification? No. There is no legal means by which you might learn Purification, unless you have a college. This doesn't mean that you couldn't quest for it on adventures. -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Jul 31 12:19:25 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id MAA09498; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 12:05:02 +1200 Received: from qedweb.qed.co.nz ([203.97.23.140] (may be forged)) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id MAA09495 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 12:04:57 +1200 Received: by localhost with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 12:02:02 +1200 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 12:02:01 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain Subject: RE: Purification From: Stephen Martin To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Yes, it's called becoming a mage. > -----Original Message----- > From: Tom Mason [SMTP:Tom@maclean.co.nz] > Sent: Monday, 31 July 2000 11:46 > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Subject: RE: Purification > > Point taken. Can a non-mage learn purification? > > Tom > > -----Original Message----- > From: Andrew Withy (FAL AKL) [mailto:AndrewW@falum.co.nz] > Sent: Monday, 31 July 2000 11:04 > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Subject: RE: Purification > > > > Its called warrior :) > > Andrew > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Tom Mason [SMTP:Tom@maclean.co.nz] > Sent: Monday, July 31, 2000 10:33 AM > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Subject: RE: Purification > > What I am wanting advice on is how can we create a purification for > fighters? I was thinking of 1% increase in strike chance per rank and +1 > to > either MD, AG per five ranks. > > Tom :-) > > -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Jul 31 12:20:23 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id MAA09488; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 12:04:13 +1200 Received: from qedweb.qed.co.nz ([203.97.23.140] (may be forged)) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id MAA09485 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 12:04:09 +1200 Received: by localhost with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 12:01:14 +1200 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 12:01:13 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain Subject: RE: Purification From: Stephen Martin To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Apart from a non-mages cry of "me too, I wanna purify too" why do you want this? What does it add to either the character or the game? > -----Original Message----- > From: Tom Mason [SMTP:Tom@maclean.co.nz] > Sent: Monday, 31 July 2000 10:33 > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Subject: RE: Purification > > What I am wanting advice on is how can we create a purification for > fighters? I was thinking of 1% increase in strike chance per rank and +1 > to > either MD, AG per five ranks. > > Tom :-) > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jim Arona [mailto:jimarona@ihug.co.nz] > Sent: Friday, 28 July 2000 14:27 > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Subject: Re: Purification > > Tom Mason wrote: > >I have a character, Goran Axebiter, Dwarven Fighter that I > am currently > >working with. I would like to know if it is possible to set > up a form of > >'fighter' purification. > > > >At the moment he is a Rank 4 warrior and I am training him > to rank 10 as > >quickly as possible - he has only been on four adventures > so far. I would > >like to use a fighter purification ability with rank 10 > unarmed combat. As > a > >pure fighter, Goran, doesn't really stand a chance against > a magic user, > >especially since seeing he is afraid of magic. > > > >What sort of process do we need to go through to develop > this idea. I am > >sure this idea has been put forward in the past and I would > like to know if > >anyone has succeeded in this. This would enable me to > create my own > >character better. > > What are you trying to do? I mean, why do you want to > have Purification, > and Rank 10 Unarmed Combat? You have me completely stumped. > > > > -- to unsubscribe see > http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- > > > -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Jul 31 13:02:33 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id NAA09940; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 13:00:56 +1200 Received: from fep4-orange.clear.net.nz (fep4-orange.clear.net.nz [203.97.32.4]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id NAA09937 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 13:00:52 +1200 Received: from comms.maclean.co.nz (b001-m005-p014.acld.clear.net.nz [203.97.54.78]) by fep4-orange.clear.net.nz (1.5/1.7) with ESMTP id MAA11658; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 12:59:17 +1200 (NZST) Received: by comms.maclean.co.nz with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) id ; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 12:34:31 +1200 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 12:34:29 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: RE: Purification From: Tom Mason To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz I like the idea of having a warrior purify by going through rituals and Kartas. Hence the reasoning on purification question. This could be done as a once off for my character to make it unique, or as a rule for non magic users. I want to focus my character on pure fighting. Non mages are at a disadvantage generally, and whilst I am not saying "That is unfair", I would like to extend my charcter's ability. For example. Goran is currently in the process of learning troubadour to increase his acrobatic skill for use in combat. He is also learning warrior and as part of that unarmed. What I am trying to do is create a short obnoxious ninja/Highlander that can kick butt. I already have the mannerisms down pat by doing thing like when he gets woken up by someone else he screams "There can be only one" and grabs his battleaxe. I want to work on this character creation and I am asking for some guidance from the 'Gods'. Is that too much to ask for? Tom -----Original Message----- From: Stephen Martin [mailto:stephenm@qed.co.nz] Sent: Monday, 31 July 2000 12:01 To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Subject: RE: Purification Apart from a non-mages cry of "me too, I wanna purify too" why do you want this? What does it add to either the character or the game? > -----Original Message----- > From: Tom Mason [SMTP:Tom@maclean.co.nz] > Sent: Monday, 31 July 2000 10:33 > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Subject: RE: Purification > > What I am wanting advice on is how can we create a purification for > fighters? I was thinking of 1% increase in strike chance per rank and +1 > to > either MD, AG per five ranks. > > Tom :-) > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jim Arona [mailto:jimarona@ihug.co.nz] > Sent: Friday, 28 July 2000 14:27 > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Subject: Re: Purification > > Tom Mason wrote: > >I have a character, Goran Axebiter, Dwarven Fighter that I > am currently > >working with. I would like to know if it is possible to set > up a form of > >'fighter' purification. > > > >At the moment he is a Rank 4 warrior and I am training him > to rank 10 as > >quickly as possible - he has only been on four adventures > so far. I would > >like to use a fighter purification ability with rank 10 > unarmed combat. As > a > >pure fighter, Goran, doesn't really stand a chance against > a magic user, > >especially since seeing he is afraid of magic. > > > >What sort of process do we need to go through to develop > this idea. I am > >sure this idea has been put forward in the past and I would > like to know if > >anyone has succeeded in this. This would enable me to > create my own > >character better. > > What are you trying to do? I mean, why do you want to > have Purification, > and Rank 10 Unarmed Combat? You have me completely stumped. > > > > -- to unsubscribe see > http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- > > > -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Jul 31 13:03:33 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id MAA09879; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 12:53:47 +1200 Received: from fclaklmr02.fcl.co.nz ([202.14.23.202] (may be forged)) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with SMTP id MAA09876 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 12:53:42 +1200 Received: from falaklex00.falum.co.nz (10.8.1.28) by fclaklmr02.fcl.co.nz Monday, July 31, 2000 12:47:47 Message-ID: Received: by falaklex00.fcl.co.nz with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 12:50:32 +1200 Message-ID: <311B3C3DD32FD311B33900805F770A7202261454@falaklex00.fcl.co.nz> Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 12:50:31 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01BFFA89.545BF290" Subject: RE: Purification From: "Andrew Withy (FAL AKL)" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01BFFA89.545BF290 Content-Type: text/plain Seriously though, several people have suggested purification for non-mages, or a more general form of purification. Proposals included general "boosts" such as +1/5 Ranks on a named stat, and +1%/Rank on MR, defence or Strike Chance. The only advantage that a fighter has over a 5 MA (Namer) mage is the +20MR, which can be whittled away over time by purification. This is more than countered by having to do every breakfast watch while the mages purify. There are a number of non-mages who have their own "purification" rituals, weapon kata, etc. Some have made up their own that do nothing, so they don't feel left out at dawn. At least one has a base chance calculated off MA (!) In general, they don't do as much as purification, but some lift stun thresholds, initiative, strike chance, or a stat. Tom, if your character is looking at combining it with his unarmed combat, I assume you are looking at an eastern martial artist approach, with some mysticism, meditation, ki, etc. If your character shows strong signs of these on an adventure running (on or off-plane) in such as environment, it is likely you will be able to find a master who can teach you such a thing, if you prove worthy. Look for such adventures, or talk (politely) to some of the Erehlein warriors (or human wannabe's) in the Guild. They may have contacts who can teach you such things. Andrew > -----Original Message----- > From: Tom Mason [SMTP:Tom@maclean.co.nz] > Sent: Monday, July 31, 2000 10:33 AM > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Subject: RE: Purification > > What I am wanting advice on is how can we create a purification for > fighters? I was thinking of 1% increase in strike chance per rank and +1 > to > either MD, AG per five ranks. > > Tom :-) > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jim Arona [mailto:jimarona@ihug.co.nz] > Sent: Friday, 28 July 2000 14:27 > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Subject: Re: Purification > > Tom Mason wrote: > >I have a character, Goran Axebiter, Dwarven Fighter that I > am currently > >working with. I would like to know if it is possible to set > up a form of > >'fighter' purification. > > > >At the moment he is a Rank 4 warrior and I am training him > to rank 10 as > >quickly as possible - he has only been on four adventures > so far. I would > >like to use a fighter purification ability with rank 10 > unarmed combat. As > a > >pure fighter, Goran, doesn't really stand a chance against > a magic user, > >especially since seeing he is afraid of magic. > > > >What sort of process do we need to go through to develop > this idea. I am > >sure this idea has been put forward in the past and I would > like to know if > >anyone has succeeded in this. This would enable me to > create my own > >character better. > > What are you trying to do? I mean, why do you want to > have Purification, > and Rank 10 Unarmed Combat? You have me completely stumped. > > > > -- to unsubscribe see > http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- > > > -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- ------_=_NextPart_001_01BFFA89.545BF290 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Purification

Seriously though, = several people have suggested purification for non-mages, or a more = general form of purification.

Proposals included = general "boosts" such as +1/5 Ranks on a named stat, and = +1%/Rank on MR, defence or Strike Chance.

The only advantage = that a fighter has over a 5 MA (Namer) mage is the +20MR, which can be = whittled away over time by purification. This is more than countered by = having to do every breakfast watch while the mages purify.

There are a number = of non-mages who have their own "purification" rituals, = weapon kata, etc. Some have made up their own that do nothing, so they = don't feel left out at dawn. At least one has a base chance calculated = off MA (!) In general, they don't do as much as purification, but some = lift stun thresholds, initiative, strike chance, or a stat.

Tom, if your = character is looking at combining it with his unarmed combat, I assume = you are looking at an eastern martial artist approach, with some = mysticism, meditation, ki, etc. If your character shows strong signs of = these on an adventure running (on or off-plane) in such as environment, = it is likely you will be able to find a master who can teach you such a = thing, if you prove worthy. Look for such adventures, or talk = (politely) to some of the Erehlein warriors (or human wannabe's) in the = Guild. They may have contacts who can teach you such things.

Andrew

    -----Original Message-----
    From:   Tom Mason [SMTP:Tom@maclean.co.nz]
    Sent:   Monday, July 31, 2000 10:33 AM
    To:     dq@dq.sf.org.nz
    Subject:       = RE: Purification

    What I am wanting advice on is how can = we create a purification for
    fighters? I was thinking of 1% = increase in strike chance per rank and +1 to
    either MD, AG per five ranks.

    Tom :-)

            =         -----Original Message-----
            =         From:   Jim Arona [mailto:jimarona@ihug.co.nz]
            =         Sent:   Friday, 28 July 2000 14:27
            =         To:     dq@dq.sf.org.nz
            =         Subject:        Re: = Purification

            =         Tom Mason wrote:
            =         >I have a character, Goran Axebiter, Dwarven Fighter = that I
    am currently
            =         >working with. I would like to know if it is possible = to set
    up a form of
            =         >'fighter' purification.
            =         >
            =         >At the moment he is a Rank 4 warrior and I am = training him
    to rank 10 as
            =         >quickly as possible - he has only been on four = adventures
    so far. I would
            =         >like to use a fighter purification ability with rank = 10
    unarmed combat. As
            =         a
            =         >pure fighter, Goran, doesn't really stand a chance = against
    a magic user,
            =         >especially since seeing he is afraid of = magic.
            =         >
            =         >What sort of process do we need to go through to = develop
    this idea. I am
            =         >sure this idea has been put forward in the past and = I would
    like to know if
            =         >anyone has succeeded in this. This would enable me = to
    create my own
            =         >character better.

            =             What are you trying to do? I mean, = why do you want to
    have Purification,
            =         and Rank 10 Unarmed Combat? You have me completely = stumped.



            =         -- to unsubscribe see
    http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html = --


    -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html = --

------_=_NextPart_001_01BFFA89.545BF290-- -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Jul 31 13:17:35 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id NAA09963; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 13:02:31 +1200 Received: from mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (mailhost.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.1.4]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id NAA09959 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 13:02:28 +1200 Received: from sci4 (lbr-122-42.lbrsc.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.122.42]) by mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (8.9.2/8.9.2/8.9.2-ua) with SMTP id NAA12241 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 13:00:54 +1200 (NZST) Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 13:01:24 +1200 Message-ID: <000301bffa8a$d8feeec0$2a7ad882@sci4> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Subject: RE: Whose stories are they? From: "Michael Parkinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wm in response to Jacqui said > > Whose story is it? Is it one person's, or that of the entire group? > > As far as I am concerned it is my story when I'm GMing. After > all I do all the > work. > I come up with the background, plot, major NPCs (and all that > entails) and > supporting characters. A player brings one character and as far > as I'm concerned > most of them are indistinguishable. Half the time they don't > care and will not > remember two weeks into the next session. Of course the blame > for this is not > all theirs. Games which stretched my suspension of disbelief > over an event > horizon spring to mind. Frankly, the best games I've GMed are those where I've put in a lot of effort but where the party is free to make up its/their own mind whither they're going next mind & what/whom they intend to do. I hate blatantly linear games & as GM I enjoy punishing (I mean "rewarding") parties for the consequences of their own actions. Moreover, even if I've put a lot of thought in [not *always* the case, mind you], its amazing how the party can twist the game to something which is a surprise to the GM at the time, but which make sense afterwards -- perhaps as some form of tit-for-tat revenge wrt astrology readings? The concept of "ownership" doesn't seem relevant to me. Yes I prepare the NPCs -- & frankly a lot of my games will bog down as the party fails to distinguish between, #1 Archfiend [optionally in disguise], attendant lord #2, & assassin #3. It's probably only important to understand #1, #2 is no more that essential scenery to avoid the stage appearing too empty, #3 is merely scenery that bites the party back. However all parts, including brief walk-on appearances, are played by actors just yearning for the change to ad lib. Talk to an NPC & they'll talk back [one way or the other]. It's only when my newly discovered role of GM as editor comes to the fore that we gloss over the boring stuff ... Anyway, I've become distracted. Let us return to our muttonheads. Also, the worst games I've GMed are those where I've put in a lot of effort but where the party is free to make up its/their own mind whither they're going next mind & what/whom they intend to do. Which boils down to what Jim originally said (& with which I totally concur, although I've only started to act on it) -- the GM should clearly direct the an erring partymember on what behaviour or attitude is inappropriate. I think Jim's word may have been "stomp", but the point still remains valid. > skipping the Accusations of Svenism by guildmembers ... > There is a superabundance of magic items exerbated by the fact > that few are of > worthy of the danger experienced to get them. If that was the > case then the roll > of honor would be a lot longer. > For many reasons players undervalue their character's power. > This results in > players claiming their 20 adventure character with more gizmos > than the bat-cave > is 'only medium level'. The problem is that "medium level" *should* be a game convention -- but it isn't. There is no set standard, except as discussed under the "quest level" ep-bonuses (which I think are seriously out-of-whack anyway). E.g.: my 20+ character has been on many adventures that are advertised as "medium-level" but the actual level varies If the GM expects him to have invested attack spells he is under-powered [as a namer, of course he has no castable attack-spells] If the GM expects him to have combat capability he is under-powered, If the GM expects him to have, say, a magical weapon he is under-powered, Yet if the GM wants him to use the skills he has, he is incredibly over-powered (except for that pathetic Rank-7 in Healer); and I freely admit that *if* he can remain operational, SF enhances the possibilities of his companions. The choice of adventure has little to do with cowardice ["How dare you, sirrah, even indirectly accuse a personage wearing a hat like *this* of being capable of cowardice] -- since most players are aware that their characters stands a very good chance of surviving (in the ultimate analysis), and we as GMs would disapprove of a GM whose main agenda was to kill PCs regardless of what they did. It all goes back to what the player wants to do & what all the players (GM & non-GM) think they mean by "low/medium/high/" etc. And whatever they think it is, they're probably wrong. Forget metric or Imperial, the problem is we don't know whether we should be measuring how tall the character's stand, their profound depth, their astounding thickness, or some other dimension. Another related point is that not all gizmos are equal. [this admittedly from a GM who usually offers items that are inappropriate for the "cutesy-intolerant"] Nor is all money-grubbing. For most people money is an essential part of training & equipping themselves. But this is *totally* dependant on specific character concerned. The reason why SF can't afford invested attack spells, let alone cute gizmos that he can afford to *keep* more than one or two sessions, is because of "noblesse oblige." Anyway, must go do some real work .... Michael -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Jul 31 13:32:39 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id NAA10086; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 13:17:25 +1200 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id NAA10083 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 13:17:22 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p159-tnt8.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.138.159]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id NAA28043 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 13:15:48 +1200 Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 13:10:53 +1200 Message-ID: <01bffa8c$2ca15800$049a64d8@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Purification From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz -----Original Message----- From: Tom Mason To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Date: Monday, 31 July 2000 13:01 Subject: RE: Purification >I like the idea of having a warrior purify by going through rituals and >Kartas. . Through to: > I want to work on >this character creation and I am asking for some guidance from the 'Gods'. > >Is that too much to ask for? No. It's just the wrong venue. What you need to do is to speak to a DM about what you want to achieve. So, the first step is to write down what you think this Purification Ritual thing does, in DQese, and present it to a DM. They may modify this ritual or whatever it is. You will probably have to quest for it, by going on adventures with a sympathetic DM. You may even have to sponsor the adventure. On the other hand, you get to design your character a little more personally. -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Jul 31 13:33:30 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id NAA10116; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 13:19:34 +1200 Received: from defacto.peace.co.nz (fwuser@[202.14.141.233] (may be forged)) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id NAA10113 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 13:19:30 +1200 Message-ID: <3984D391.6B71E1DE@peace.com> Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 13:17:05 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Purification From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Tom Mason wrote: > What I am trying to do is create a short obnoxious ninja/Highlander... A dwarven ninja in a stealth kilt?! > that can kick butt. Ahh... head high kicks for anyone else... butt kicks for a dwarf. A dwarven ninja in a stealth kilt doing high kicks... *shudder* :) As Andrew wrote, there are a few guild members with the style of odd ability that you are seeking. These abilities are often unteachable (I know the couple I've given out have been), but should give you good leads to follow up with a GM. Ninja type abilities may be rare and hard to come by for a couple of reasons. They are fairly fringe for the sort of euro-fantansy DQ world, and they are often solitary in nature -- ninja training in secret mountain hideaways usually involves (in genre) individual quests and hardship that's not well suited to party adventuring. But generally, if you keep looking for something, particularly something that will make your character highly distinct -- rather than just bestow world-smashing power -- you can eventually find it. Regards, Martin -- _/_/ Peace Software New Zealand Ltd Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com _/ Martin Dickson Fax : +64-9-373-0401 Analyst Phone: +64-9-373-0400 -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Jul 31 14:02:56 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id NAA10356; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 13:50:44 +1200 Received: from defacto.peace.co.nz (fwuser@[202.14.141.233] (may be forged)) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id NAA10353 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 13:50:41 +1200 Message-ID: <3984DB06.10C76A9A@peace.com> Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 13:48:54 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Purification From: Michael Woodhams To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: michael.woodhams@peace.com Martin Dickson wrote: > But generally, if you keep looking for something, particularly something that > will make your character highly distinct -- rather than just bestow > world-smashing power -- you can eventually find it. I've had an experience like this. We were going to visit a sort of elemental plane of life, so Anathea did an augury on how she could become life aspected - and lo and behold, there was an opportunity. (What surprised me was that another party member partook also.) If it fits with the adventure, if you let the GM know you want it, and if what you ask is reasonable, there is a good chance you will get it. It may take a couple of years for the right opportunity to come up. You may be able to convince a GM to run a quest session for you to get it, although in this case (fighter 'purification') patience will probably suffice. Michael W. -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Jul 31 14:04:14 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id NAA10323; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 13:47:23 +1200 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id NAA10320 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 13:47:20 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p159-tnt8.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.138.159]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id NAA31144 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 13:45:44 +1200 Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 13:40:50 +1200 Message-ID: <01bffa90$5bb9c880$049a64d8@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Level of Play From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Michael Parkinson wrote: >It all goes back to what the player >wants to do & what all the players (GM & non-GM) think they mean by >"low/medium/high/" etc. And whatever they think it is, they're probably >wrong. Forget metric or Imperial, the problem is we don't know whether we >should be measuring how tall the character's stand, their profound depth, >their astounding thickness, or some other dimension. I suppose we can all point to examples where a character doesn't really fit the 'ideal' level. SilverFoam is a good example. He is extremely skilled. How many players have so many skill at Rank 10? Bugger all, I'd have said. Admittedly, they're not high xp skills, but even so... And, the fact that he's been around since God was a little boy. He has propensities that other pcs just don't own. If he kept his magic items, he would be frightening creature of dark, monstrous power. But, by and large, you can predict the effectiveness of a character by their Perception. If their Perception is 12 or less, they're probably low level. If it's less than about 21, then they're probably medium level. If it is higher, then they will most likely be appropriate for high level games. This is a generalisation, but works well. If a pc is playing outside their level, then two things are immediately obvious. The first is that the DM didn't mind, and allowed it for reasons of their own. The second is that the player will have to work harder to make the grade. If the game is higher than the character, then they face the very real possibility that they will die. If it is lower than the character, then they will have to find some useful way of contributing if they want to make a reasonable amount of xp. As a character progresses, the amount of xp they need to see some meaningful amount of change in their character commensurately increases. A player who dies a lot spends a lot of xp in repaying the EN loss. -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Jul 31 14:32:09 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id OAA10618; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 14:23:16 +1200 Received: from fep4-orange.clear.net.nz (fep4-orange.clear.net.nz [203.97.32.4]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id OAA10615 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 14:23:11 +1200 Received: from comms.maclean.co.nz (b001-m004-p028.acld.clear.net.nz [203.97.54.28]) by fep4-orange.clear.net.nz (1.5/1.7) with ESMTP id OAA04618; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 14:21:33 +1200 (NZST) Received: by comms.maclean.co.nz with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) id ; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 14:14:56 +1200 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 14:14:55 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) Content-Type: text/plain Subject: RE: Purification From: Tom Mason To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thank you to everyone that has responded. I will give it some more thought and then approach a GM on the situation as I want to make it as easy for them as possible to say go and do it. Tom -----Original Message----- From: Michael Woodhams [mailto:michael.woodhams@peace.com] Sent: Monday, 31 July 2000 13:49 To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Subject: Re: Purification Martin Dickson wrote: > But generally, if you keep looking for something, particularly something that > will make your character highly distinct -- rather than just bestow > world-smashing power -- you can eventually find it. I've had an experience like this. We were going to visit a sort of elemental plane of life, so Anathea did an augury on how she could become life aspected - and lo and behold, there was an opportunity. (What surprised me was that another party member partook also.) If it fits with the adventure, if you let the GM know you want it, and if what you ask is reasonable, there is a good chance you will get it. It may take a couple of years for the right opportunity to come up. You may be able to convince a GM to run a quest session for you to get it, although in this case (fighter 'purification') patience will probably suffice. Michael W. -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Jul 31 14:47:11 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id OAA10782; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 14:41:59 +1200 Received: from mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (mailhost.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.1.4]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id OAA10779 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 14:41:54 +1200 Received: from sci4 (lbr-122-42.lbrsc.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.122.42]) by mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (8.9.2/8.9.2/8.9.2-ua) with SMTP id OAA29676 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 14:40:15 +1200 (NZST) Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 14:40:45 +1200 Message-ID: <000201bffa98$ba64bb80$2a7ad882@sci4> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Subject: RE: Stupid Adventurers From: "Michael Parkinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Re Dunces cap etc. > I hate this idea. Again, it seeks to make cleverness an > important part > of role-playing. But, it's not cleverness that we're interested > in seeing. Actually that's unfair. I agree that it is not cleverness that players (& especially characters) are interested in -- it is *Cunning* in which we rejoice. As player, I have often seen plans succeed because they *deserved* to succeed. Thought, per se, is not admired by players -- but if it's got that poetic touch of guile or if it dupes someone else, especially if it is only *technically* honest or legal, then it will almost always to win acclaim. It's those guild "ethics" again. Michael -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Jul 31 17:02:00 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id QAA11968; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 16:58:43 +1200 Received: from smtp4.ihug.co.nz (smtp4.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.5]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id QAA11964 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 16:58:39 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p479-tnt6.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.136.225]) by smtp4.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id QAA06651 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 16:56:59 +1200 Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 16:51:57 +1200 Message-ID: <01bffaab$0e910580$e1886dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Stupid Adventurers From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > >Thought, per se, is not admired by players -- but if it's got that poetic >touch of guile or if it dupes someone else, especially if it is only >*technically* honest or legal, then it will almost always to win acclaim. >It's those guild "ethics" again. Yes, but the important adjective is 'poetic'. Style, grace, elegance. But, simple cleverness? Nah. -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Jul 31 18:31:54 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id SAA12485; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 18:17:27 +1200 Received: from mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (mailhost.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.1.4]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id SAA12482 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 18:17:24 +1200 Received: from sci4 (lbr-122-42.lbrsc.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.122.42]) by mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (8.9.2/8.9.2/8.9.2-ua) with SMTP id SAA01581 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 18:15:43 +1200 (NZST) Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 18:16:13 +1200 Message-ID: <000701bffab6$d4196850$2a7ad882@sci4> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Subject: RE: Stupid Adventurers From: "Michael Parkinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > >Thought, per se, is not admired by players -- but if it's got > that poetic > >touch of guile or if it dupes someone else, especially if it is only > >*technically* honest or legal, then it will almost always to > win acclaim. > >It's those guild "ethics" again. > > > Yes, but the important adjective is 'poetic'. Style, grace, > elegance. > But, simple cleverness? Nah. Thank you! I dashed off the reply, re-read it, & then added that single, specific word in order to make my point just so. -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Aug 2 11:44:11 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id LAA28733; Wed, 2 Aug 2000 11:31:51 +1200 Received: from qedweb.qed.co.nz ([203.97.23.140] (may be forged)) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id LAA28730 for ; Wed, 2 Aug 2000 11:31:42 +1200 Received: by localhost with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Wed, 2 Aug 2000 11:27:43 +1200 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 11:27:34 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain Subject: DQ Gods Meeting this Sunday - Agenda Topics?? From: Stephen Martin To: dq-announce@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq-announce@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz There has been plenty of lively debate over the email group these past few weeks, but does anyone have a proposal to put forward out of any of it? Or anything else for the agenda? Cheers, Stephen. -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Aug 2 12:30:02 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id MAA29089; Wed, 2 Aug 2000 12:18:26 +1200 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id MAA29086 for ; Wed, 2 Aug 2000 12:18:22 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p135-tnt6.akl.ihug.co.nz [216.100.154.135]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id MAA11999 for ; Wed, 2 Aug 2000 12:15:42 +1200 Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 12:10:08 +1200 Message-ID: <01bffc16$04d34d20$879a64d8@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: DQ Gods Meeting this Sunday - Agenda Topics?? From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz -----Original Message----- From: Stephen Martin To: dq-announce@dq.sf.org.nz Date: Wednesday, 2 August 2000 11:42 Subject: DQ Gods Meeting this Sunday - Agenda Topics?? >There has been plenty of lively debate over the email group these past few >weeks, but does anyone have a proposal to put forward out of any of it? >Or anything else for the agenda? Yes. I propose that we address Quickness as a problem, and attempt to solve it. We have something like 8 potential solutions, at the moment. There are bound to be more. I also proprose that we discuss the following issues: What does low, medium and high level mean? What is the comparative importance of the game engine and the story? What kind of behaviour do we want to see in players (and their characters), and how do we encourage it? Should we provide our players with a critique of their performance? These are just discussion issues, and I suggest we talk about them before the business of the meeting. It IS, however, central to the nature of DMing that we make some attempt to at least think about them -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Wed Aug 2 23:05:51 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id WAA01853; Wed, 2 Aug 2000 22:57:59 +1200 Received: from kcbbs.gen.nz (kcbbs.gen.nz [202.14.102.1]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id WAA01850 for ; Wed, 2 Aug 2000 22:57:55 +1200 Received: from bear (as5200-41.kcbbs.gen.nz [202.14.102.71]) by kcbbs.gen.nz (8.9.3/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA25689 for ; Wed, 2 Aug 2000 22:53:03 +1200 (NZST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000802225435.00793ac0@kcbbs.gen.nz> X-Sender: salient@kcbbs.gen.nz X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 22:54:35 +1200 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: Quickness From: Brent Jackson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz In terms of minimalist change, I like the suggestion of the target losing a FT point if they choose to do the second action (all that rushing about has got to be tiring :). If they have no FT left they cannot have their second action. This may not seem like much of a change, but FT is the big limiting factor these days, now that FT generators have been all but eliminated. (A nastier version would compel the target to lose the FT and the spell ends when the FT hits 0). Any change should include incorporating it into combat with regard to when each action occurs (eg 1st action at IV + 10, and second at IV / 2). Cheers, Brent. -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Aug 3 00:43:56 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id AAA02586; Thu, 3 Aug 2000 00:38:45 +1200 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id AAA02583 for ; Thu, 3 Aug 2000 00:38:41 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p83-tnt2.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.245.83]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id AAA23992 for ; Thu, 3 Aug 2000 00:35:43 +1200 Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 00:30:02 +1200 Message-ID: <01bffc7d$618ff880$53f56dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Quickness From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Brent Jackson wrote: >In terms of minimalist change, I like the suggestion of the target losing a >FT point if they choose to do the second action (all that rushing about has >got to be tiring :). If they have no FT left they cannot have their second >action. While I like the idea of the spell costing FT every round someone is Quickened, I don't like making it dependant on the character taking an action. It creates a reward for a character to take no action. And, reactive play is unfairly rewarded by the system. It's pretty irrelevant whether or not this actually models reality. That is a flaw in design, because it requires a closer and closer attention to minutiae until the thing becomes a bookkeeping hassle. I would prefer to see some FT loss for every round of Quickness, irrelevant of whether or not someone were taking an action. If forced to provide a rationalisation, then I offer one these: The spell elevates the targets' metabolic rate, forcing their body to burn fuel at a higher rate. Their hearts beat faster, they breathe quicker, and so on. The spell consumes the life energy of the targets, feeding off it to provide a momentary gaps in the veil of time in which they can act at an accelerated rate. The spell requires the FT, whether or not the action is taken. I see no particular need to concern ourselves overly much with rationalisations about what the spell might actually be doing, however. I offer them simply to show that we can rationalise backwards from the effect we WANT the spell to have. I like that the spell ends when the target runs out of FT. A lot. >Any change should include incorporating it into combat with regard to when >each action occurs (eg 1st action at IV + 10, and second at IV / 2). I like this, a lot, too. -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Aug 3 10:14:11 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id KAA06627; Thu, 3 Aug 2000 10:09:46 +1200 Received: from qedweb.qed.co.nz ([203.97.23.140] (may be forged)) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id KAA06624 for ; Thu, 3 Aug 2000 10:09:38 +1200 Received: by localhost with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Thu, 3 Aug 2000 10:05:14 +1200 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 10:05:13 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: RE: Quickness From: Stephen Martin To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz The problem with mandatory FT cost and actions every pulse is that it takes choice away from the players, and makes Quickness almost an attack spell. Most Parties would then require the E&E to cast the spell at the last second before it's needed and then counterspell it as soon as the fight is mostly won. Otherwise the party finishes the Fight stripped of Fatigue, unable to use their magic/skills to heal themselves, thus be forced to rely on items for post combat healing and travel. Non-action in combat is its own penalty, DQ combats are generally too dangerous to allow anyone to sit around. If someone chooses to act slowly in a close fight then they will certainly be punished by their own party for the sniveling weasel that they are. Also if a fight turns out to be easier than expected, the part can slow down, deal to their opponents at normal speed and have some FT left to do something else for the rest of the day. I like the IV suggestion. Though a variant on it is to have the IV bonus based on Rank. Whether a quickened entity is taking one action or two must be decided at the beginning of the pulse and the FT spent then. Also do we allow them to use EN for the extra action once their FT is gone? In some ways I like it, it gives the player the choice of running themselves into the ground when they need to. Counter to that is the limiting aspect of FT, there are very few ways of avoiding a pulse based FT drain, whearas EN can be enhanced by SoS and the recovered at the same rate it's lost by using Trollskin. Then again, they would be out of FT, unable to cast, Strike Chances and defence reduced, ... decent fighters would still be able to hold their own, but mages would be rifling through their items in order to be effective. Hmm I'm undecided, each option has its pros and cons. Cheers, Stephen. > -----Original Message----- > From: Jim Arona [SMTP:jimarona@ihug.co.nz] > Sent: Thursday, 3 August 2000 00:30 > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Subject: Re: Quickness > > Brent Jackson wrote: > >In terms of minimalist change, I like the suggestion of the target losing > a > >FT point if they choose to do the second action (all that rushing about > has > >got to be tiring :). If they have no FT left they cannot have their > second > >action. > > While I like the idea of the spell costing FT every round someone is > Quickened, I don't like making it dependant on the character taking an > action. It creates a reward for a character to take no action. And, > reactive > play is unfairly rewarded by the system. > It's pretty irrelevant whether or not this actually models reality. > That > is a flaw in design, because it requires a closer and closer attention to > minutiae until the thing becomes a bookkeeping hassle. > I would prefer to see some FT loss for every round of Quickness, > irrelevant of whether or not someone were taking an action. If forced to > provide a rationalisation, then I offer one these: > The spell elevates the targets' metabolic rate, forcing their body to > burn fuel at a higher rate. Their hearts beat faster, they breathe > quicker, > and so on. > The spell consumes the life energy of the targets, feeding off it to > provide a momentary gaps in the veil of time in which they can act at an > accelerated rate. The spell requires the FT, whether or not the action is > taken. > I see no particular need to concern ourselves overly much with > rationalisations about what the spell might actually be doing, however. I > offer them simply to show that we can rationalise backwards from the > effect > we WANT the spell to have. > I like that the spell ends when the target runs out of FT. A lot. > > >Any change should include incorporating it into combat with regard to > when > >each action occurs (eg 1st action at IV + 10, and second at IV / 2). > > I like this, a lot, too. > > > > -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Aug 3 10:44:02 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id KAA07099; Thu, 3 Aug 2000 10:34:51 +1200 Received: from westpac.co.nz (firewall1.westpac.co.nz [210.55.236.18]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id KAA07096 for ; Thu, 3 Aug 2000 10:34:47 +1200 Received: by firewall1.westpac.co.nz id <32292>; Thu, 3 Aug 2000 10:37:10 +1200 X-Lotus-FromDomain: WESTPACTRUST Message-Id: <00Aug3.103710nzst.32292@firewall1.westpac.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 10:37:09 +1200 Subject: RE: Quickness From: "Mark Simpson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz A couple of points: 1. People seem to have accepted by default that Quickness actually needs to be changed, a point on which I for one am not yet convinced. It has been played this way for many years I understand. While thats not reason enough in itself to keep it as is, I think it is worthy of note that, up until Jim's recent email, I have not heard anyone else voice concerns over the spell. 2. Any solution which requires extra book keeping starts with a big black mark against it in my book. An extra point of fatigue lost every pulse is an extra item of book keeping every pulse for all the players. Is the point of fatigue lost at the beggining or the end of the pulse? 3. IF, and I stress IF, it is shown that quickness requires changing I still favour my earlier suggestion that it simplies lets you have an extra action every second pulse, which downpowers it considerably with no addtional bookeeping or formulas to work through. You just need to remember that, for example, if its an odd pulse you have one action and if its an even pulse you have two actions, or alternatively if you had one action last pulse then you get two this one and vice versa. Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------- The contents of this e-mail are confidential to Westpac Banking Corporation. If you have received this communication by mistake, please advise the sender immediately and delete the message and any attachments. The views expressed in this e-mail are not necessarily the views of Westpac Banking Corporation. Westpac Banking Corporation is incorporated in New South Wales, Australia. ----------------------------------------------------------------- -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Aug 3 11:14:12 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id LAA07528; Thu, 3 Aug 2000 11:05:56 +1200 Received: from defacto.peace.co.nz (fwuser@[202.14.141.233] (may be forged)) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id LAA07525 for ; Thu, 3 Aug 2000 11:05:53 +1200 Message-ID: <3988A851.373C32B2@peace.com> Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 11:01:37 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Quickness From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz I have no particular agenda when it comes to Quickness except that in its current form it breaks the Combat sequence and can be a pain to GM. One area where this becomes complex is if the Quickened character is engaged and uses their first action to become unengaged -- presumably we would re-calculate their unengaged IV and halve it (or whatever), and the converse where they act in the Unengaged portion of the Pulse and engage and their 2nd action should use Engaged rules and IV. These problems stem from Quickness exposing a weakness with the 2 Init system model (having both Engaged and Unengaged calculations with non-comparative results). However else it may get altered/fixed/modified for game balance and power I would like to see it fitted within the Init system. Mark's suggestion of 1 extra action every second pulse would reduce the spell's power but it would still break the combat sequence (just every 2nd pulse) -- although if more than one Quickness was running (on different parts of the party, or the party and the bad guys), and these were off-set, there would be little difference with the current situation. My preference -- if Quickness continues to offer 2 actions -- is for a single IV system and a note on how Quickness works within this. The IV calculation could be as simple as Brent's one action at +10, the other at 1/2 IV (or similar). Cheers, Martin -- _/_/ Peace Software New Zealand Ltd Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com _/ Martin Dickson Fax : +64-9-373-0401 Analyst Phone: +64-9-373-0400 -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Aug 3 11:29:14 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id LAA07656; Thu, 3 Aug 2000 11:25:52 +1200 Received: from fclaklmr02.fcl.co.nz ([202.14.23.202] (may be forged)) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with SMTP id LAA07653 for ; Thu, 3 Aug 2000 11:25:46 +1200 Received: from falaklex00.falum.co.nz (10.8.1.28) by fclaklmr02.fcl.co.nz Thursday, August 03, 2000 11:04:50 Message-ID: Received: by falaklex00.fcl.co.nz with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Thu, 3 Aug 2000 11:07:24 +1200 Message-ID: <311B3C3DD32FD311B33900805F770A7202261473@falaklex00.fcl.co.nz> Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 11:07:23 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01BFFCD6.6B26D090" Subject: RE: Quickness From: "Andrew Withy (FAL AKL)" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01BFFCD6.6B26D090 Content-Type: text/plain There are a few corollaries from this proposal of Brent & Jim. 1) Casting this on the enemy will strip their FT. Useful in pre-combat manueoverings or semi-social surrounds. 2) If you get hit while Quickened, you will lose the spell. This _may_ encourage cowardice. 3) Ranking for Duration is no longer an option, only for number of targets. 4) Gut-busters keep your quickness running longer, making them even more desirable. I don't think these are desirable effects. Apart from this, the FT/pulse idea is interesting. Andrew > -----Original Message----- > From: Jim Arona [SMTP:jimarona@ihug.co.nz] > I would prefer to see some FT loss for every round of Quickness, > irrelevant of whether or not someone were taking an action. ------_=_NextPart_001_01BFFCD6.6B26D090 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Quickness

There are a few = corollaries from this proposal of Brent & Jim.
1) Casting this on = the enemy will strip their FT. Useful in pre-combat manueoverings or = semi-social surrounds.
2) If you get hit = while Quickened, you will lose the spell. This _may_ encourage = cowardice.
3) Ranking for = Duration is no longer an option, only for number of targets.
4) Gut-busters keep = your quickness running longer, making them even more desirable.

I don't think these = are desirable effects. Apart from this, the FT/pulse idea is = interesting.

Andrew

    -----Original Message-----
    From:   Jim Arona [SMTP:jimarona@ihug.co.nz]
        I would prefer to = see some FT loss for every round of Quickness,
    irrelevant of whether or not someone = were taking an action.

------_=_NextPart_001_01BFFCD6.6B26D090-- -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Aug 3 12:44:06 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id MAA08188; Thu, 3 Aug 2000 12:33:37 +1200 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (smtp2.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.8]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id MAA08185 for ; Thu, 3 Aug 2000 12:33:33 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p245-tnt2.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.245.245]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id MAA19285 for ; Thu, 3 Aug 2000 12:30:13 +1200 Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 12:24:29 +1200 Message-ID: <01bffce1$30786160$f5f56dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Quickness From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mark Simpson wrote: >1. People seem to have accepted by default that Quickness actually needs to >be changed, a point on which I for one am not yet convinced. It has been >played this way for many years I understand. While thats not reason enough >in itself to keep it as is, I think it is worthy of note that, up until >Jim's recent email, I have not heard anyone else voice concerns over the >spell. It has been raised before as an issue, whether or not you are aware of it. Even if I were the only person mentioning it as a problem, then it would still be worth discussing. If only because then other DMs might have some simple solution that would solve my 'percieved' problem with the spell. My objections are already noted and listed elsewhere. It is clear that I have thought about the concerns I am raising, and that I'm not introducing them flippantly or casually. It seems to me that it would be better to address the issue(s) that I raise. >2. Any solution which requires extra book keeping starts with a big black >mark against it in my book. An extra point of fatigue lost every pulse is >an extra item of book keeping every pulse for all the players. Is the point >of fatigue lost at the beggining or the end of the pulse? Yes, it is extra bookkeepping, but it is bookkeeping on the part of the players, not the DM. I don't believe that it's an enormous load on the players. When the DM occasionally uses Quickness, it's a simple calculation to organise. You have to check the FT values of NPCs every round, anyway, so that you know what their defence values are. Subtracting, say, one from that total isn't going to be that hard to do. The FT is subtracted either at the end, or the beginning, I suppose. It doesn't matter yet. If the idea is an acceptable one, then it will matter. At the moment, it isn't even a flyer,yet. > >3. IF, and I stress IF, it is shown that quickness requires changing I >still favour my earlier suggestion that it simplies lets you have an extra >action every second pulse, which downpowers it considerably with no >addtional bookeeping or formulas to work through. You just need to remember >that, for example, if its an odd pulse you have one action and if its an >even pulse you have two actions, or alternatively if you had one action >last pulse then you get two this one and vice versa. Um. This is a harder method to keep track of, if the party is a large one, and needs multiple Quicknesses. And, although it reduces the value of the spell somewhat, I would say that the response in general would be for E&E mages to find spell variants that allow them an extra choice per pulse, which is the way it is now. For a change to be effective, we have to do more than simply write a change to the spell. The rest of the DMs have to feel that the change is a reasonable one. Otherwise, a player who wants the 'old' Quickness will look for a way to get it, and enough DMs may allow it that it creates an expectation that it can be found. At which point, we have simply written a rule that is merely ink on paper. -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Aug 3 12:59:09 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id MAA08263; Thu, 3 Aug 2000 12:43:57 +1200 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (smtp2.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.8]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id MAA08257 for ; Thu, 3 Aug 2000 12:43:48 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p245-tnt2.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.245.245]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id MAA20488 for ; Thu, 3 Aug 2000 12:40:24 +1200 Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 12:34:39 +1200 Message-ID: <01bffce2$9c075d40$f5f56dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Quickness From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz -----Original Message----- From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Date: Thursday, 3 August 2000 11:12 Subject: Re: Quickness >I have no particular agenda when it comes to Quickness except that in its >current form it breaks the Combat sequence and can be a pain to GM. That is the best reason. It's a pain because it requires more of your attention. The engine MUST be very DM friendly. If it is also player friendly, then that's a bonus. The more attention a DM devotes to something like Quickness, the less time they are devoting to the game or the story. > >My preference -- if Quickness continues to offer 2 actions -- is for a single IV >system and a note on how Quickness works within this. The IV calculation could >be as simple as Brent's one action at +10, the other at 1/2 IV (or similar). Yes. I ran this for some time. It has an irritating effect that I don't like, but it's only something I don't like, not something that I think sucks. If the character has a very high IV, then it's possible that both their actions will occur before the actions of their opponent. Concomitantly, if they have very low IV, both of their actions might go off after everyone else has chosen their actions. There's nothing particularly bad about it, except that it breaks a sense of story flow in the combat, because with a high IV character, the perception is that they use up their action in the first part of the pulse, and then wait around for the rest to catch up. On the other hand, the low IV character waits and waits and waits, until they get their action, when they go into a flurry of motion as their action choices resolve themselves. I would prefer that the action flowed something like A acts, then B responds, then A uses their extra action. It has more story flow. But, it is only a preference. -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Aug 3 13:01:13 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id MAA08280; Thu, 3 Aug 2000 12:44:33 +1200 Received: from mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (mailhost.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.1.4]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id MAA08277 for ; Thu, 3 Aug 2000 12:44:29 +1200 Received: from sci4 (lbr-122-42.lbrsc.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.122.42]) by mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (8.9.2/8.9.2/8.9.2-ua) with SMTP id MAA25537 for ; Thu, 3 Aug 2000 12:41:15 +1200 (NZST) Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 12:41:43 +1200 Message-ID: <000d01bffce3$98592ce0$2a7ad882@sci4> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Subject: RE: Quickness From: "Michael Parkinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > 1. People seem to have accepted by default that Quickness > actually needs to > be changed, a point on which I for one am not yet convinced. GM & you will be convinced. > It has been > played this way for many years I understand. While thats not > reason enough > in itself to keep it as is, I think it is worthy of note that, up until > Jim's recent email, I have not heard anyone else voice concerns over the > spell. Discontent with the spell has been fermenting for a long while. Especially for the poor GM who bothers to construct NPCs & plausible situations based on the premises of his scenario. You either have something which is a doddle for a quickened party, or something which unduly slaughters them because that particular party does NOT have a quickness-casting E&E or invested quicknesses on them. At low-end-of-medium adventures & upwards, most GMs seem to be constructing situations that *assume* the party will be quickened. There is a big difference between what a party can do with it on & what they can't. It is not merely a case of the party doing twice as much as the opponents [which clearly is of devastating advantage in spell vs spell] it's the fact that they also a guaranteed action with initiative on the foe with a follow-up action. This leads to that revolting, but common, practice of a combat pulse being "A evades, X attacks, A attacks." I have variously had to resort to AA of Jim's list of pseudo-strategies for the GM to cope with the problem that is quickness [even the unreasonable ones]. Also: hit the bastards once, heavily, with surprise. etc > 2. Any solution which requires extra book keeping starts with a big black > mark against it in my book. Valid point -- one which should weigh significantly (but not absolutely) with all corrected or new DQ rules. > 3. IF, and I stress IF, it is shown that quickness requires changing I > still favour my earlier suggestion that it simplies lets you > have an extra > action every second pulse, which downpowers it considerably with no > addtional bookeeping or formulas to work through. You just need > to remember > that, for example, if its an odd pulse you have one action and if its an > even pulse you have two actions, or alternatively if you had one action > last pulse then you get two this one and vice versa. That too is a messy situation ("Yes officer I was speeding, but *only* every second block") I'm sorry if this seems too negative a mailing, especially since I don't know what the solution is. Over the past few years, in each adventure I GM, there is a least one potential combat that the party will NOT win -- even if they are quickened. If a non-quickened party uses their skills & cunning to avoid the unwinnable, yet fight bravely in the other combats they will get good EP. If the party was not really at risk, thanks to its being quickened, the EP should be lower for an unchallenged [i.e., quickened] party -- since obviously the "quest-level" section of the EP is a grade or two lower than it would have been judged on other factors. Michael -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Aug 3 13:13:58 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id MAA08622; Thu, 3 Aug 2000 12:59:06 +1200 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (smtp2.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.8]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id MAA08615 for ; Thu, 3 Aug 2000 12:58:56 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p245-tnt2.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.245.245]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id MAA22272 for ; Thu, 3 Aug 2000 12:55:35 +1200 Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 12:49:52 +1200 Message-ID: <01bffce4$bbe8c340$f5f56dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0056_01BFFD49.511DA340" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Quickness From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0056_01BFFD49.511DA340 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Andrew Withy wrote: =20 =20 There are a few corollaries from this proposal of Brent & Jim.=20 1) Casting this on the enemy will strip their FT. Useful in = pre-combat manueoverings or semi-social surrounds.=20 =20 We can define the spell as requiring the subject to provide the = FT. If they choose not to spend the FT, the spell ends.=20 =20 =20 2) If you get hit while Quickened, you will lose the spell. This = _may_ encourage cowardice.=20 =20 No, I don't think so. If you are Quickened and in a situation = where you're prone to getting hit, then the characters will have = determined that the spell is necessary.=20 =20 Merely because the spell has a penalty if you don't have FT = doesn't encourage cowardice. The Enchantment Ritual at Rank 20 = encourages cowardice. This spell merely means that there's a penalty if = you run out of FT. And, there are penalties already. They don't seem to = have much of an effect on the cowardice or courage of players. =20 =20 3) Ranking for Duration is no longer an option, only for number of = targets.=20 =20 Yes. That's true. But, then, the spell has an Exp Mult of 300. = There are people who wonder that it has ANY duration at all. It is a = powerful effect, under-rated by the system. Removing the pressure to = Rank it to increase it for duration is pretty minor, seeing as I don't = know of anyone that Ranks it for that reason, now. =20 Once you have Ranked the spell past 7, then it has as much = duration as you're ever likely to need. =20 The spell is Ranked for targets now. I don't see that there = would be any change at all to the procedure. =20 =20 4) Gut-busters keep your quickness running longer, making them even = more desirable.=20 =20 On the other hand, you have to take EN damage in the middle of = combat, so that you can restore your FT, and, in any case, all of the FT = you might recover might be lost with one blow. =20 When a player is Quickened, it is almost allways in a combat = situation. To take a Restorative means that you are reducing your EN = total, to raise your FT total. It's a choice that a player might NOT = make. At the moment, there is no choice. You ALWAYS choose to be = Quickened. =20 =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0056_01BFFD49.511DA340 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Quickness
Andrew Withy = wrote:

 

There are a few = corollaries from=20 this proposal of Brent & Jim.
1) Casting this on the enemy will strip their FT. Useful in = pre-combat manueoverings or semi-social surrounds.

    We can define the spell as requiring the = subject to=20 provide the FT. If they choose not to spend the FT, the spell ends.=20  


2) If you get hit = while=20 Quickened, you will lose the spell. This _may_ encourage = cowardice.=20

    No, I don't think so. If you are Quickened and = in a=20 situation where you're prone to getting hit, then the characters = will have=20 determined that the spell is necessary.  

    Merely because the spell has a penalty if you = don't=20 have FT doesn't encourage cowardice. The Enchantment Ritual at Rank = 20=20 encourages cowardice. This spell merely means that there's a penalty = if you=20 run out of FT. And, there are penalties already. They don't seem to = have=20 much of an effect on the cowardice or courage of players. 


3) Ranking for = Duration is no=20 longer an option, only for number of targets.

    Yes. That's true. But, then, the spell has an = Exp Mult=20 of 300. There are people who wonder that it has ANY duration at all. = It is a=20 powerful effect, under-rated by the system. Removing the pressure to = Rank it=20 to increase it for duration is pretty minor, seeing as I don't know = of=20 anyone that Ranks it for that reason, now. 

    Once you have Ranked the spell past 7, then it = has as=20 much duration as you're ever likely to need. 

    The spell is Ranked for targets now. I don't = see that=20 there would be any change at all to the procedure. 


4) Gut-busters = keep your=20 quickness running longer, making them even more desirable. =

    On the=20 other hand, you have to take EN damage in the middle of combat, so = that you=20 can restore your FT, and, in any case, all of the FT you might = recover might=20 be lost with one blow.

    When a=20 player is Quickened, it is almost allways in a combat situation. To = take a=20 Restorative means that you are reducing your EN total, to raise your = FT=20 total. It's a choice that a player might NOT make. At the moment, = there is=20 no choice. You ALWAYS choose to be Quickened.

 

------=_NextPart_000_0056_01BFFD49.511DA340-- -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Aug 3 13:59:05 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id NAA08962; Thu, 3 Aug 2000 13:47:20 +1200 Received: from defacto.peace.co.nz (fwuser@[202.14.141.233] (may be forged)) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id NAA08959 for ; Thu, 3 Aug 2000 13:47:17 +1200 Message-ID: <3988CE1B.C6BA55D7@peace.com> Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 13:42:51 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Quickness From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Jim Arona wrote: > If the character has a very high IV, then it's possible that both their > actions will occur before the actions of their opponent. Concomitantly, if > they have very low IV, both of their actions might go off after everyone > else has chosen their actions. > ... > I would prefer that the action flowed something like A acts, then B > responds, then A uses their extra action. It has more story flow. > But, it is only a preference. I think its a good preference, and agree that it does flow better... or at least _appears_ to flow better, which is usually enough from a story telling POV. From a purely mechanical POV, considering the combat sequence as a whole rather than on a pulse by pulse basis, the three options are nearly equivalent, though the A-B-A option appears the most flowing within the pulse. The three sequences, using A and B to mark the actions and a colon to mark a pulse boundary are: Fast A -- AAB:AAB:AAB:AAB... Slow A -- BAA:BAA:BAA:BAA... Interleaved -- ABA:ABA:ABA:ABA... In all cases, once the sequence gets going, A gets two actions between each of B's... the Pulse boundaries just end up in diffent places, which has effects on Stun, Magic effects, etc. If A always hits B and stuns, but B always recovers from Stun (both on their action if stunned, and during end of pulse), then Interleaved will result in B never acting, but A always attacking an unstunned opponent; Fast A will see A attacking a stunned B half the time and B never acting; and Slow B will have A attacking a stunned B on the second action, but B will get to act at the beginning of the pulse -- giving B a better chance of breaking out of the vicious circle. Anyhoo... just some technical thunkz. Cheers, Martin -- _/_/ Peace Software New Zealand Ltd Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com _/ Martin Dickson Fax : +64-9-373-0401 Analyst Phone: +64-9-373-0400 -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Aug 3 14:44:32 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id OAA09724; Thu, 3 Aug 2000 14:43:42 +1200 Received: from fclaklmr02.fcl.co.nz ([202.14.23.202] (may be forged)) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with SMTP id OAA09721 for ; Thu, 3 Aug 2000 14:43:39 +1200 Received: from falaklex00.falum.co.nz (10.8.1.28) by fclaklmr02.fcl.co.nz Thursday, August 03, 2000 14:36:15 Message-ID: Received: by falaklex00.fcl.co.nz with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Thu, 3 Aug 2000 14:38:47 +1200 Message-ID: <311B3C3DD32FD311B33900805F770A720226147E@falaklex00.fcl.co.nz> Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 14:38:47 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01BFFCF3.F31B0430" Subject: RE: Quickness From: "Andrew Withy (FAL AKL)" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01BFFCF3.F31B0430 Content-Type: text/plain How do other systems with multiple actions per round work? For instance I know that AD&D allows(ed?) multiple actions for fighters, 3/2, 2 or 5/2 per round. While moving to something like Champion's Speed stats & having N actions per 12 seconds may be too complex, surely there is a simple & elegant mechanic in some other RPG that we can use - or even a boardgame or wargame, given the rest of DQ's combat system style? Andrew ------_=_NextPart_001_01BFFCF3.F31B0430 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Quickness

How do other systems = with multiple actions per round work? For instance I know that AD&D = allows(ed?) multiple actions for fighters, 3/2, 2 or 5/2 per round. = While moving to something like Champion's Speed stats & having N = actions per 12 seconds may be too complex, surely there is a simple = & elegant mechanic in some other RPG that we can use - or even a = boardgame or wargame, given the rest of DQ's combat system = style?

Andrew

------_=_NextPart_001_01BFFCF3.F31B0430-- -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Aug 3 14:56:23 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id OAA09655; Thu, 3 Aug 2000 14:36:52 +1200 Received: from fclaklmr02.fcl.co.nz ([202.14.23.202] (may be forged)) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with SMTP id OAA09652 for ; Thu, 3 Aug 2000 14:36:49 +1200 Received: from falaklex00.falum.co.nz (10.8.1.28) by fclaklmr02.fcl.co.nz Thursday, August 03, 2000 14:29:24 Message-ID: Received: by falaklex00.fcl.co.nz with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Thu, 3 Aug 2000 14:31:58 +1200 Message-ID: <311B3C3DD32FD311B33900805F770A720226147D@falaklex00.fcl.co.nz> Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 14:31:57 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01BFFCF2.FE9D0430" Subject: RE: Quickness From: "Andrew Withy (FAL AKL)" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01BFFCF2.FE9D0430 Content-Type: text/plain Note that the technical "thunk" by Martin shows that a very fast (twice as fast as opponent) character gets a small advantage, while a slow (at least 11 IV slower) character gets a disadvantage. This seems acceptable to me, for a mixed combat where you count down IV (or for a duel-style combat), but slows down the game (breaks story flow?) if you use a different style, or for mass combats. Some GMs count down IV across the whole combat, some resolve each melee flurry in total before moving onto the next group, some just work their way around the room unless IV is critical at a particular time. There may be other methods as well. One's preference on whether we split a pulse into quickened, non-quickened, quickened second half, or use a IV+10 & IV/2 system will be coloured by how one approaches action resolution order. I prefer to have the latter as the default rule, and revert to the former on strategic or high-level combats - but that's GM style, not rules. [Yes, there's an "Answer" or preferred method in the rule book, but I use different methods depending on the party, the opposition and the *detail* I am resolving the fight at.] Andrew > -----Original Message----- > From: Martin Dickson [SMTP:martin.dickson@peace.com] > > From a purely mechanical POV, considering the combat sequence as a whole > rather > than on a pulse by pulse basis, the three options are nearly equivalent, > though > the A-B-A option appears the most flowing within the pulse. > > The three sequences, using A and B to mark the actions and a colon to mark > a > pulse boundary are: > > Fast A -- AAB:AAB:AAB:AAB... > Slow A -- BAA:BAA:BAA:BAA... > Interleaved -- ABA:ABA:ABA:ABA... > > In all cases, once the sequence gets going, A gets two actions between > each of > B's... the Pulse boundaries just end up in diffent places, which has > effects on > Stun, Magic effects, etc. > > If A always hits B and stuns, but B always recovers from Stun (both on > their > action if stunned, and during end of pulse), then Interleaved will result > in B > never acting, but A always attacking an unstunned opponent; Fast A will > see A > attacking a stunned B half the time and B never acting; and Slow B will > have A > attacking a stunned B on the second action, but B will get to act at the > beginning of the pulse -- giving B a better chance of breaking out of the > vicious circle. > > Anyhoo... just some technical thunkz. > Cheers, > Martin ------_=_NextPart_001_01BFFCF2.FE9D0430 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Quickness

Note that the = technical "thunk" by Martin shows that a very fast (twice as = fast as opponent) character gets a small advantage, while a slow (at = least 11 IV slower) character gets a disadvantage. This seems = acceptable to me, for a mixed combat where you count down IV (or for a = duel-style combat), but slows down the game (breaks story flow?) if you = use a different style, or for mass combats.

Some GMs count down = IV across the whole combat, some resolve each melee flurry in total = before moving onto the next group, some just work their way around the = room unless IV is critical at a particular time. There may be other = methods as well.

One's preference on = whether we split a pulse into quickened, non-quickened, quickened = second half, or use a IV+10 & IV/2 system will be coloured by how = one approaches action resolution order. I prefer to have the latter as = the default rule, and revert to the former on strategic or high-level = combats - but that's GM style, not rules.

[Yes, there's an = "Answer" or preferred method in the rule book, but I use = different methods depending on the party, the opposition and the = *detail* I am resolving the fight at.]

Andrew

    -----Original Message-----
    From:   Martin Dickson = [SMTP:martin.dickson@peace.com]

    From a purely mechanical POV, = considering the combat sequence as a whole rather
    than on a pulse by pulse basis, the = three options are nearly equivalent, though
    the A-B-A option appears the most = flowing within the pulse.

    The three sequences, using A and B to = mark the actions and a colon to mark a
    pulse boundary are:

    Fast A --  = AAB:AAB:AAB:AAB...
    Slow A --  = BAA:BAA:BAA:BAA...
    Interleaved -- = ABA:ABA:ABA:ABA...

    In all cases, once the sequence gets = going, A gets two actions between each of
    B's... the Pulse boundaries just end = up in diffent places, which has effects on
    Stun, Magic effects, etc.

    If A always hits B and stuns, but B = always recovers from Stun (both on their
    action if stunned, and during end of = pulse), then Interleaved will result in B
    never acting, but A always attacking = an unstunned opponent; Fast A will see A
    attacking a stunned B half the time = and B never acting; and Slow B will have A
    attacking a stunned B on the second = action, but B will get to act at the
    beginning of the pulse -- giving B a = better chance of breaking out of the
    vicious circle.

    Anyhoo... just some technical = thunkz.
    Cheers,
    Martin

------_=_NextPart_001_01BFFCF2.FE9D0430-- -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Aug 3 15:44:02 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id PAA10108; Thu, 3 Aug 2000 15:37:53 +1200 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (smtp2.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.8]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id PAA10105 for ; Thu, 3 Aug 2000 15:37:46 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p245-tnt2.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.245.245]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id PAA10275 for ; Thu, 3 Aug 2000 15:34:25 +1200 Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 15:28:44 +1200 Message-ID: <01bffcfa$edae2620$f5f56dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00A4_01BFFD5F.82E30620" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Quickness From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00A4_01BFFD5F.82E30620 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Andrew Withy wrote: =20 How do other systems with multiple actions per round work? For = instance I know that AD&D allows(ed?) multiple actions for fighters, = 3/2, 2 or 5/2 per round.=20 =20 AD&D allows warriors extra attacks at various levels, not an extra = action. =20 Haste provides a 2 point bonus to initiative. It doesn't allow for = extra spell casting or other types of actions. Only melee and ranged = attacks. =20 In addition, there is a penalty in the spell that makes the caster = consider when to use it. It ages the targets by a year. =20 Not that I think that's a great idea for a penalty, but it does mean = that you don't see wizards tanked to the gunwales with Haste spells.=20 =20 While moving to something like Champion's Speed stats & having N = actions per 12 seconds may be too complex, surely there is a simple & = elegant mechanic in some other RPG that we can use - or even a boardgame = or wargame, given the rest of DQ's combat system style? =20 In EarthDawn, warriors have a talent that allows them to make an = additionaly attack, if they exceed their opponents initiative roll by a = factor of two. Other disciplines can get additional attacks by learning = 'Extra Attack', but it only applies to melee or ranged attacks. There is = no way in which a spell casting character can get extra spells off, = except at extremely high levels of the game, and even then, it is more = limited than in DQ, for example. =20 In Shadowrun, extra actions are predicated on the value of your = initiative roll, also. It is considered to be a 3 second round, and you = roll your initiative dice and total it. You act on your initiative = value. You subtract 10 from your initiative value, and if that number is = 3 or greater, then you act again. You keep doing that until you have an = initiative value that is lower than 3. It is possibly to have initiative = values that are so large that they get as many as 5 or 6 actions in a = round. =20 Beware of conjurous adept vampires that are heavily wired.=20 =20 Torg has no particular spell that allows for multiple action, = instead, as you attempt more and more actions, the grade of all of them = decrease so that they are much less effective. It's pretty cool, = actually, but it doesn't do exactly the same thing. The resolution is if = you had done one thing, but with more and more negatives. It works okay, = but there is no congruence within the game to indicate the extra = actions. Still... =20 Actually, Champions or Fantasy Hero or whatever it's calling itself = now doesn't offer extra actions. You could learn a spell that let you = increase your speed. But, that sort of spell is liable to make the = bravest DM go pale. The attendant reductions you can gain with foci are = pretty extensive, and having a widely variant speed order to keep in = mind is going to be fairly hard going, I'd have thought. =20 Star Wars doesn't offer extra actions as a Force ability, because it = allows players to keep taking actions for as long as they have dice = pools.=20 =20 In Star Wars, your initiative is a pool of dice determined by your = dice, but which you don't seem to be able to alter in any way. Your = first action carries no penalty (unless you're hindered by wounds or = something else) but every action after that reduces the size of ALL of = your pools. So, if you start with a dodge pool of 6 dice, and a blaster = pool of 5 dice then you get the following kind of effect: =20 Your opponent wins initiative and shoots at you. You dodge (6 = dice). You shoot back (5-1=3D4 dice). He dodges, and shoots back. You = dodge again (6-1-1=3D4 dice), and so on. =20 It's an elegant system, and provides for some pretty rollicking = action, but it doesn't really let you act twice. On the other hand, you = don't need to. You just raise your skills across the board, and create = the impression that you're bloody hard to take down. It wouldn't be a = false impression. Darth Vader can knit a woolly jumper while he's = carving your tripes out with a feather duster. And, the Emperor can go = toe to toe with an X-Wing and turn it into a garden sprinkler. =20 I suppose what we ought to consider is that most games have = looked at the effect of multiple actions, and decided that it's a major = pain in the arse, and limited in some fashion, or made it a part of the = engine. In almost every case, extra actions are intimately tied to = initiative. Haste and Quickness, however, although they provide bonuses = don't quite do that. =20 One possible solution that we really haven't addressed is to = take the extra actions out of the game, altogether, and say that you can = choose an action if your initiative value is high enough, or at some = divisor of that initiative value. Like, we could say that if your = initiative value is twice your opponents, then you can act twice against = them. The hassle here is that it's something of an open question as to = who you can act against on a second action, because another entity might = have an initiative value higher than your IV divided by 2. =20 Or, we could say that if your initiative value is greater than, = say, 20, after you have subtracted 20, then you can take another action. = The hassle with THIS is that the range of IVs are so great...from five = to seventy something...That's a big range. And, it might allow for a lot = of extra actions, more than we really want to see. =20 Still... =20 ------=_NextPart_000_00A4_01BFFD5F.82E30620 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Quickness
Andrew Withy = wrote:

How do other systems = with multiple=20 actions per round work? For instance I know that AD&D = allows(ed?)=20 multiple actions for fighters, 3/2, 2 or 5/2 per round.

AD&D allows warriors extra attacks at various levels, = not an=20 extra action.

Haste = provides a 2 point=20 bonus to initiative. It doesn't allow for extra spell casting or = other types=20 of actions. Only melee and ranged attacks.

In addition, there is a penalty in the spell that = makes the=20 caster consider when to use it. It ages the targets by a=20 year. 

Not that I think that's a great idea for a = penalty, but it=20 does mean that you don't see wizards tanked to the gunwales with = Haste=20 spells.  

While moving to = something like=20 Champion's Speed stats & having N actions per 12 seconds may be = too=20 complex, surely there is a simple & elegant mechanic in some = other RPG=20 that we can use - or even a boardgame or wargame, given the rest of = DQ's=20 combat system style?

In EarthDawn, warriors have a talent that allows = them to=20 make an additionaly attack, if they exceed their opponents = initiative roll=20 by a factor of two. Other disciplines can get additional attacks by = learning=20 'Extra Attack', but it only applies to melee or ranged attacks. = There is no=20 way in which a spell casting character can get extra spells off, = except at=20 extremely high levels of the game, and even then, it is more limited = than in=20 DQ, for example.

In Shadowrun, extra actions are predicated on the = value of=20 your initiative roll, also. It is considered to be a 3 second round, = and you=20 roll your initiative dice and total it. You act on your initiative = value.=20 You subtract 10 from your initiative value, and if that number is 3 = or=20 greater, then you act again. You keep doing that until you have an=20 initiative value that is lower than 3. It is possibly to have = initiative=20 values that are so large that they get as many as 5 or 6 actions in = a=20 round.

Beware of conjurous adept vampires that are = heavily wired.=20

Torg has no particular spell that allows for = multiple=20 action, instead, as you attempt more and more actions, the grade of = all of=20 them decrease so that they are much less effective. It's pretty = cool,=20 actually, but it doesn't do exactly the same thing. The resolution = is if you=20 had done one thing, but with more and more negatives. It works okay, = but=20 there is no congruence within the game to indicate the extra = actions.=20 Still...

Actually, Champions or Fantasy Hero or whatever = it's calling=20 itself now doesn't offer extra actions. You could learn a spell that = let you=20 increase your speed. But, that sort of spell is liable to make the = bravest=20 DM go pale. The attendant reductions you can gain with foci are = pretty=20 extensive, and having a widely variant speed order to keep in mind = is going=20 to be fairly hard going, I'd have thought.

Star Wars doesn't offer extra actions as a Force = ability,=20 because it allows players to keep taking actions for as long as they = have=20 dice pools.

In Star Wars, your initiative is a pool of dice = determined=20 by your dice, but which you don't seem to be able to alter in any = way. Your=20 first action carries no penalty (unless you're hindered by wounds or = something else) but every action after that reduces the size of ALL = of your=20 pools. So, if you start with a dodge pool of 6 dice, and a blaster = pool of 5=20 dice then you get the following kind of effect:

    Your opponent wins initiative = and shoots=20 at you. You dodge (6 dice). You shoot back (5-1=3D4 dice). He = dodges, and=20 shoots back. You dodge again (6-1-1=3D4 dice), and so on.

    It's an elegant system, and = provides for=20 some pretty rollicking action, but it doesn't really let you act = twice. On=20 the other hand, you don't need to. You just raise your skills across = the=20 board, and create the impression that you're bloody hard to take = down. It=20 wouldn't be a false impression. Darth Vader can knit a woolly jumper = while=20 he's carving your tripes out with a feather duster. And, the Emperor = can go=20 toe to toe with an X-Wing and turn it into a garden = sprinkler.

    I suppose what we ought to = consider is=20 that most games have looked at the effect of multiple actions, and = decided=20 that it's a major pain in the arse, and limited in some fashion, or = made it=20 a part of the engine. In almost every case, extra actions are = intimately=20 tied to initiative. Haste and Quickness, however, although they = provide=20 bonuses don't quite do that.

    One possible solution that we = really=20 haven't addressed is to take the extra actions out of the game, = altogether,=20 and say that you can choose an action if your initiative value is = high=20 enough, or at some divisor of that initiative value. Like, we could = say that=20 if your initiative value is twice your opponents, then you can act = twice=20 against them. The hassle here is that it's something of an open = question as=20 to who you can act against on a second action, because another = entity might=20 have an initiative value higher than your IV divided by = 2.

    Or, we could say that if your = initiative=20 value is greater than, say, 20, after you have subtracted 20, then = you can=20 take another action. The hassle with THIS is that the range of IVs = are so=20 great...from five to seventy something...That's a big range. And, it = might=20 allow for a lot of extra actions, more than we really want to=20 see.

   =20 Still...

------=_NextPart_000_00A4_01BFFD5F.82E30620-- -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Aug 3 15:59:33 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id PAA10499; Thu, 3 Aug 2000 15:47:25 +1200 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (smtp2.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.8]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id PAA10493 for ; Thu, 3 Aug 2000 15:47:10 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p245-tnt2.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.245.245]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id PAA11547 for ; Thu, 3 Aug 2000 15:43:45 +1200 Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 15:38:05 +1200 Message-ID: <01bffcfc$3bdf20a0$f5f56dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00C5_01BFFD60.D11400A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Quickness From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00C5_01BFFD60.D11400A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sorry, typo: In Star Wars, your initiative is a pool of dice determined by your Dex = (instead of dice...the pain of spelling checkers) , but which you don't = seem to be able to alter in any way. Your first action carries no = penalty (unless you're hindered by wounds or something else) but every = action after that reduces the size of ALL of your pools. So, if you = start with a dodge pool of 6 dice, and a blaster pool of 5 dice then you = get the following kind of effect: ------=_NextPart_000_00C5_01BFFD60.D11400A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Quickness
Sorry, = typo:
In Star Wars, your initiative is a pool of dice=20 determined by your = Dex=20 (instead of dice...the pain of spelling checkers) , but which you don't = seem to=20 be able to alter in any way. Your first action carries no penalty = (unless you're=20 hindered by wounds or something else) but every action after that = reduces the=20 size of ALL of your pools. So, if you start with a dodge pool of 6 dice, = and a=20 blaster pool of 5 dice then you get the following kind of=20 effect:
------=_NextPart_000_00C5_01BFFD60.D11400A0-- -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Aug 3 16:14:00 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id QAA10620; Thu, 3 Aug 2000 16:00:07 +1200 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (smtp2.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.8]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id QAA10595 for ; Thu, 3 Aug 2000 16:00:00 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p245-tnt2.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.245.245]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id PAA13389 for ; Thu, 3 Aug 2000 15:56:06 +1200 Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 15:50:25 +1200 Message-ID: <01bffcfd$f5479da0$f5f56dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00D3_01BFFD62.8A7C7DA0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Quickness From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00D3_01BFFD62.8A7C7DA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I..er...didn't quite finish my thought, here... =20 One possible solution that we really haven't addressed is to take = the extra actions out of the game, altogether, and say that you can = choose an action if your initiative value is high enough, or at some = divisor of that initiative value. Like, we could say that if your = initiative value is twice your opponents, then you can act twice against = them. The hassle here is that it's something of an open question as to = who you can act against on a second action, because another entity might = have an initiative value higher than your IV divided by 2. Or, we could say that if your initiative value is greater than, say, 20, = after you have subtracted 20, then you can take another action. The = hassle with THIS is that the range of IVs are so great...from five to = seventy something...That's a big range. And, it might allow for a lot of = extra actions, more than we really want to see. If we use these methods, then Quickness could provide a bonus to = initiative at an a rate depending on Rank...2 per rank, say.=20 Or, we could say that the spell simply provided the platform underwhich = such high values might offer these bonuses.=20 They are, however, not much of a solution to the hassle of seeing the = spell so prevalent in the game. As the characters progress through the = game, the value of the spell will also increase, so that what we would = have created is a very elegant, but still very boring situation. ------=_NextPart_000_00D3_01BFFD62.8A7C7DA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Quickness

I..er...didn't quite finish my thought,=20 here...   

 

    One possible solution that we = really haven't=20 addressed is to take the extra actions out of the game, altogether, and = say that=20 you can choose an action if your initiative value is high enough, or at = some=20 divisor of that initiative value. Like, we could say that if your = initiative=20 value is twice your opponents, then you can act twice against them. The = hassle=20 here is that it's something of an open question as to who you can act = against on=20 a second action, because another entity might have an initiative value = higher=20 than your IV divided by 2.

Or, we could say that if your initiative value is = greater than,=20 say, 20, after you have subtracted 20, then you can take another action. = The=20 hassle with THIS is that the range of IVs are so great...from five to = seventy=20 something...That's a big range. And, it might allow for a lot of extra = actions,=20 more than we really want to see.

If we use these methods, then Quickness could provide = a bonus to=20 initiative at an a rate depending on Rank...2 per rank, say.

Or, we could say that the spell simply provided the = platform=20 underwhich such high values might offer these bonuses.

They are, however, not much of a solution to the = hassle of=20 seeing the spell so prevalent in the game. As the characters progress = through=20 the game, the value of the spell will also increase, so that what we = would have=20 created is a very elegant, but still very boring=20 situation.

------=_NextPart_000_00D3_01BFFD62.8A7C7DA0-- -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Aug 4 10:29:03 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id KAA20532; Fri, 4 Aug 2000 10:27:18 +1200 Received: from enterprise.iconz.co.nz (enterprise.iconz.co.nz [210.48.22.40]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with SMTP id KAA20529 for ; Fri, 4 Aug 2000 10:27:14 +1200 Received: (qmail 9321 invoked by alias); 3 Aug 2000 22:23:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mandos) (210.48.7.51) by enterprise.iconz.co.nz with SMTP; 3 Aug 2000 22:23:29 -0000 Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 10:23:23 +1200 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: RE: Quickness From: "Mandos D Shadowspawn Esq" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > >I have no particular agenda when it comes to Quickness except that in its > >current form it breaks the Combat sequence and can be a pain to GM. > > That is the best reason. It's a pain because it requires more of your > attention. The engine MUST be very DM friendly. If it is also player > friendly, then that's a bonus. > The more attention a DM devotes to something like Quickness, the less > time they are devoting to the game or the story. > > > > >My preference -- if Quickness continues to offer 2 actions -- is for a > single IV system and a note on how Quickness works within this. The IV calculation > could be as simple as Brent's one action at +10, the other at 1/2 IV (or > similar). Regarding this aspect of quickness I personally think the problem is with the initiative system not quickness. I use a different initiative system and have no problems at all with quickness. A description of the system is here. http://webnz.com/dragonquest/files/mandosrules/Alternatecom.zip Mandos /s -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Aug 4 10:44:05 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id KAA20583; Fri, 4 Aug 2000 10:31:55 +1200 Received: from enterprise.iconz.co.nz (enterprise.iconz.co.nz [210.48.22.40]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with SMTP id KAA20580 for ; Fri, 4 Aug 2000 10:31:52 +1200 Received: (qmail 28399 invoked by alias); 3 Aug 2000 22:28:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mandos) (210.48.7.51) by enterprise.iconz.co.nz with SMTP; 3 Aug 2000 22:28:06 -0000 Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 10:27:50 +1200 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001A_01BFFDFE.A4025500" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: RE: Quickness From: "Mandos D Shadowspawn Esq" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01BFFDFE.A4025500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit H ow do other systems with multiple actions per round work? For instance I know that AD&D allows(ed?) multiple actions for fighters, 3/2, 2 or 5/2 per round. While moving to something like Champion's Speed stats & having N actions per 12 seconds may be too complex, surely there is a simple & elegant mechanic in some other RPG that we can use - or even a boardgame or wargame, given the rest of DQ's combat system style? I always liked the Initiative system from Judge Dredd, where depending on the value you got a number of options that were spread through the round. On each round yhou just called out the numbers and anyone with an action in that number got to act. It is kinda hard to discribe in text but it was kinda cool. :-) Mandos /s ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01BFFDFE.A4025500 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Quickness

 H=20 ow do other systems with multiple actions per round = work? For=20 instance I know that AD&D allows(ed?) multiple actions for = fighters,=20 3/2, 2 or 5/2 per round. While moving to something like Champion's = Speed=20 stats & having N actions per 12 seconds may be too complex, = surely there=20 is a simple & elegant mechanic in some other RPG that we can use = - or=20 even a boardgame or wargame, given the rest of DQ's combat system=20 style?

I always=20 liked the Initiative system from Judge Dredd, where depending on the = value you=20 got a number of options that were spread through the round. On each = round yhou=20 just called out the numbers and anyone with an action in that number got = to act.=20 It is kinda hard to discribe in text but it was kinda cool.=20 :-)

 

Mandos

/s

------=_NextPart_000_001A_01BFFDFE.A4025500-- -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Aug 4 11:29:01 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id LAA20882; Fri, 4 Aug 2000 11:23:26 +1200 Received: from defacto.peace.co.nz (fwuser@[202.14.141.233] (may be forged)) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id LAA20879 for ; Fri, 4 Aug 2000 11:23:23 +1200 Message-ID: <3989FDFD.53FE7EF6@peace.com> Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 11:19:26 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Quickness From: Michael Woodhams To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: michael.woodhams@peace.com A possible Quickness change would be to say that all magic requires normal time to complete, even if quickened. Advantages: Substantially depowers quickness, addressing the problem of how to make opponents that challenge but don't steamroll both quickened or non-quickened parties. Is easy to justify from a game plausibility point of view. Enhances fighters compared to mages - I know there are quite a few people who feel the pure fighter option is greatly underpowered currently. Disadvantages: Doesn't address initiative system hassles. Leaves some players with little to do, hence bored. If you are spell casting, others get to have 4 actions in the time you get to walk two hexes and make a cast check. (Hm, probably get to walk 4 hexes - both half phases when you are preparing should allow a 2 hex move when quickened.) Michael W. -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Aug 4 11:59:01 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id LAA21067; Fri, 4 Aug 2000 11:50:36 +1200 Received: from defacto.peace.co.nz (fwuser@[202.14.141.233] (may be forged)) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id LAA21064 for ; Fri, 4 Aug 2000 11:50:32 +1200 Message-ID: <3989FB66.38FCE74B@peace.com> Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 11:08:22 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Quickness From: Michael Woodhams To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: michael.woodhams@peace.com Mandos D Shadowspawn Esq wrote:
 
H ow do other systems with multiple actions per round work? For instance I know that AD&D allows(ed?) multiple actions for fighters, 3/2, 2 or 5/2 per round. While moving to something like Champion's Speed stats & having N actions per 12 seconds may be too complex, surely there is a simple & elegant mechanic in some other RPG that we can use - or even a boardgame or wargame, given the rest of DQ's combat system style?
I always liked the Initiative system from Judge Dredd, where depending on the value you got a number of options that were spread through the round. On each round yhou just called out the numbers and anyone with an action in that number got to act. It is kinda hard to discribe in text but it was kinda cool. :-)

Mandos

/s

A few minor comments:

I think AD&D allows multiple *attacks* by fighters. If I'm right, to transfer this method to DQ we would allow quickened people to make two strikes when it was their turn to attack, but only the normal single action if they chose to do anything else.

Judge Dredd initiative sounds a lot like Champions. Each round has 12 phases, if you have speed 5 you get to act on 5 of those phases (a chart tells you which ones.)

Mandos - you don't like Unix users much in your method of distributing your initiative system. I expected a web page, but instead got a .zip download file which fortunately I could unpack. It created a filename with lots of spaces - which Unix utilities generally don't like - so I renamed it. Finally, it is a Word document. I could log in to another machine and fire up Staroffice, but i just loaded it into a text editor and I think I found the guts of the document among the binary crud.

I'm pretty much agnostic on whether Quickness should be changed.

Michael W.
  -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Aug 4 15:14:09 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id PAA22697; Fri, 4 Aug 2000 15:10:15 +1200 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (smtp2.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.8]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id PAA22687 for ; Fri, 4 Aug 2000 15:10:05 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p324-tnt6.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.136.70]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id PAA03872 for ; Fri, 4 Aug 2000 15:06:11 +1200 Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 15:00:18 +1200 Message-ID: <01bffdc0$1f36daa0$46886dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: George Mitchinson's Initiative system From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz This is George's combat system. Why he didn't simply post it, I don't know. The first change is that unengaged combat now occurs only before the fight to allow the combating groups a chance to manoeuvre and perceive the tactics of the opponents. Once one person hits another person everyone goes to engaged combat. Engaged initiative is based on the weapon you are holding or if you are a spell caster your unarmed initiative. This means that all NPC’s of a type act together and the player’s act in the same order each time, which means they can plan better and can keep track of the pulse. Spells go off at the end of the pulse if the group is unengaged and on the initiative of the caster if engaged. Players may elect to hold their actions to allow a slower member of the same group to go before them. This is my analysis. 1) This means that unarmed combat provides you with an initiative bonus while casting a spell or firing a bow or throwing a rock, or what have you. The result of this is that, given the nature of combat, a spell (in a cast pulse) will be cast faster than a fighter can swing their sword, seeing as none of the swinging weapons go to Rank 10, and Unarmed Combat does. 2) It creates this weird thing where spells are slow at the beginning of a combat, but then accelerate. I don't know why this happens. I don't see what benefit accrues from it working that way. 3) It means that initiative is frozen, and doesn't vary. Once established, the initiative is set for the rest of the encounter. Amongst the players, it's completely frozen. I don't think this initiative system is worth using. It doesn't offer anything new, it's merely simple. It doesn't contribute to a sense of dramatic flow in the story. Perhaps, with more work, something could be done with this variant. -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Aug 4 15:29:10 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id PAA22805; Fri, 4 Aug 2000 15:20:18 +1200 Received: from defacto.peace.co.nz (fwuser@[202.14.141.233] (may be forged)) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id PAA22802 for ; Fri, 4 Aug 2000 15:20:14 +1200 Message-ID: <398A353B.987A133A@peace.com> Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 15:15:08 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: George Mitchinson's Initiative system From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Jim Arona wrote: > The result of this is that .... a spell (in a cast pulse) will be cast faster > than a fighter can swing their sword, seeing as > none of the swinging weapons go to Rank 10, and Unarmed Combat does. A corollary being that ancient and venerable wizards will tend to be masters of the martial arts and kick serious butt in close combat. Think twice about leaping on that wizened sorcerer to stop him casting. :) -- _/_/ Peace Software New Zealand Ltd Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com _/ Martin Dickson Fax : +64-9-373-0401 Analyst Phone: +64-9-373-0400 -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Aug 4 15:59:07 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id PAA23335; Fri, 4 Aug 2000 15:52:47 +1200 Received: from qedweb.qed.co.nz ([203.97.23.140] (may be forged)) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id PAA23332 for ; Fri, 4 Aug 2000 15:52:42 +1200 Received: by localhost with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Fri, 4 Aug 2000 15:47:44 +1200 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 15:47:37 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: RE: George Mitchinson's Initiative system & Quickness From: Stephen Martin To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz One simple variant of this might spice things up a little and make unarmed less of a mandatory skill. IV = AG + PC + 2D10 If you are attacking with a weapon then your weapon rank is the minimum number you can roll on the first die. If you are being led by a Military Scientist then their rank becomes the minimum number you can roll on the second die. If you are a Warrior in melee then your warrior rank may be used instead of the lowest number from either of the dice. Quickness adds its rank to your IV. With your first action on your IV, and your second action on the IV = Rank of Quickness (with or without FT cost). Optionally the same dice roll could be applied to the entire party. For GMs this will almost certainly be the case. This may be getting a little complicated but I think something along these lines has potential. Cheers, Stephen. > -----Original Message----- > From: Jim Arona [SMTP:jimarona@ihug.co.nz] > Sent: Friday, 4 August 2000 15:00 > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Subject: Re: George Mitchinson's Initiative system > > This is George's combat system. Why he didn't simply post it, I don't > know. > > The first change is that unengaged combat now occurs only before the fight > to allow the combating groups a chance to manoeuvre and perceive the > tactics > of the opponents. Once one person hits another person everyone goes to > engaged combat. > Engaged initiative is based on the weapon you are holding or if you are a > spell caster your unarmed initiative. > This means that all NPC's of a type act together and the player's act in > the > same order each time, which means they can plan better and can keep track > of > the pulse. > Spells go off at the end of the pulse if the group is unengaged and on the > initiative of the caster if engaged. > Players may elect to hold their actions to allow a slower member of the > same > group to go before them. > > > This is my analysis. > 1) This means that unarmed combat provides you with an initiative > bonus > while casting a spell or firing a bow or throwing a rock, or what have > you. > The result of this is that, given the nature of combat, a spell (in a cast > pulse) will be cast faster than a fighter can swing their sword, seeing as > none of the swinging weapons go to Rank 10, and Unarmed Combat does. > 2) It creates this weird thing where spells are slow at the beginning > of > a combat, but then accelerate. I don't know why this happens. I don't see > what benefit accrues from it working that way. > 3) It means that initiative is frozen, and doesn't vary. Once > established, the initiative is set for the rest of the encounter. Amongst > the players, it's completely frozen. > > I don't think this initiative system is worth using. It doesn't offer > anything new, it's merely simple. It doesn't contribute to a sense of > dramatic flow in the story. > Perhaps, with more work, something could be done with this variant. > > > > -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Aug 4 16:14:10 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id QAA23456; Fri, 4 Aug 2000 16:11:51 +1200 Received: from mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (mailhost.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.1.4]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id QAA23453 for ; Fri, 4 Aug 2000 16:11:48 +1200 Received: from sci4 (lbr-122-42.lbrsc.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.122.42]) by mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (8.9.2/8.9.2/8.9.2-ua) with SMTP id QAA01185 for ; Fri, 4 Aug 2000 16:07:54 +1200 (NZST) Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 16:08:22 +1200 Message-ID: <000601bffdc9$a173adf0$2a7ad882@sci4> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Subject: Re: Initiative systems From: "Michael Parkinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Oh well, if you're asking for systems, this is the one we play-tested [after tweaking for quickness]: MAGIC IV = PC + spell-Rank + MA; COMBAT IV = PC + [prepared] weapon-Rank + mod.AG + warrior bonuses + 2*[Mil.Sci Rank of skirmish-leader] +d10 Note that each individual in combat rolls their personal d10 for that pulse. At the _beginning_ of a pulse the player of a mage may elect to SPECIFY a magic IV which is lower. The player of a character in combat may strike at any lower IV of their choosing, depending on how circumstances are going -- i.e. the actual IV chosen does NOT have to be specified in advance. [examples attached below] ******** Modification for quickness. ******** For both Magic or Combat, as above, +10 for being quickened -- This figure is the IV of you 1st action. Now have the figure, and you have the base IV of the 2nd action. The specified Magic IV, or chosen Combat IV, must be HIGHER that the base IV of the 2nd action. [We did not have anyone with inhuman AG, so there were no further modifications as far as the party were concerned; & they avoided the multi-apendaged monster] kind regards, Michael ===some interpretations === Quickness tends work roughly as normal for similar opponents -- i.e. (if A is quickened & B not) it was a typical ABA aria, but BAA if the non-quickened was better &/or luckier. If the non-quickened were *way* out-classed the combat was AAB [Not that tyro allowed himself to be discouraged when fighting the Vampire's champion]. Some existing rules were tweaked, generally so as to maintain the status quo. -- E.g., the "back-stabbing rule." If someone is in melee, is yet to act, and is attacking through a rear hex of their opponent, they _may_ attempt a strike before their opponent acts; if an initiative value is needed (e.g., an archer attempting to take out the back-stabber first), the back-stabber acts on their normal IV _or_ 1+[Assassin Rank] points higher than the stabbee (whichever is greater). ===Examples (feel free to skip)=== Example: last pulse Dogood the mind-mage prepared an "empathy" spell (Rank 15) ; this pulse he intends casting it, however he decides to have an I.V. of 1 (rather than, say, 46) because he's not certain which of his comrades will need it. Example: The invisible Lady Whimsy is standing behind the Evil Don Fanatico who is fighting, with rapier & dagger, her fellow partymember Sir Robin who is wielding a claymore. None of them are warriors, and the Evil Don's minions are otherwise engaging the party's Mil.Scientist -- it's part of their job description. Lady W (PC20, AG 25, Rank 3 Dagger) diceroll=7 E.D.F. (PC24, AG 23, Rank 4 Dagger Rank 10 Rapier) diceroll=5 Robin (PC15, AG 15, Rank 4 Claymore) diceroll=10 (for all the good it'll do!) Lady W's IV is more than 62 -- being the greater of 55 (=48+7) OR 63+ (=EDF's IV +1 + some other number), EDF's IVs are 62 & 56 (=57+5, 51+5) Robin's IV is 44 (=34+10) The combat goes like this, as we count down the pulse: 63+: Lady W *could* stab EDF in the back, but she's not certain it's worth losing her Rank 10 invisibility since there are still lots of minions roaming about & she's sure they can't see her [yet!], therefore she declines to act immediately, wanting to see how things go. 62: EDF *could* now turn and attempt to plunge his rapier into Lady W (whom he can't actually see, but he knows she's somewhere there & he's willing to accept the -50 to BC) but, because of the positioning, that would mean Sir R (who hasn't acted yet) would be able to wield that nasty-looking claymore even before EDF attempted his risky, but spectacular, party-trick of throwing his dagger at targets behind him. Therefore EDF has at Sir R with the rapier [at -10 BC, as part of EDF's multi-attack], and Sir R is merely stunned & lets the claymore fall. 61: Lady W decides to act now, rather than dither any longer. Fortunately her blow is good & the dagger is medicated so she kills the EDF. In his dying moments, EDF realises he should have risked holding both his blows until 56 & at least Robin might have been dead as well. Oh well, his vengeance will have to be sated with that Rank 15 death curse instead. ====================================== -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Aug 4 16:44:12 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id QAA24288; Fri, 4 Aug 2000 16:38:06 +1200 Received: from mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (mailhost.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.1.4]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id QAA24285 for ; Fri, 4 Aug 2000 16:38:03 +1200 Received: from sci4 (lbr-122-42.lbrsc.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.122.42]) by mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (8.9.2/8.9.2/8.9.2-ua) with SMTP id QAA06376 for ; Fri, 4 Aug 2000 16:34:08 +1200 (NZST) Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 16:34:36 +1200 Message-ID: <000701bffdcd$4b816f00$2a7ad882@sci4> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Subject: RE: Initiative systems From: "Michael Parkinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Apologies for the spelling. Quickly cutting & pasting is no substitute for an afternoon coffee. Please correct the offending paragraph to [...] > ******** Modification for quickness. ******** > For both Magic or Combat, as above, +10 for being quickened -- > This figure is the IV of your 1st action. > Now halve that figure, and you have the base IV of the 2nd action. > The specified Magic IV, or chosen Combat IV, must be HIGHER that the base > IV of the 2nd action. [...] -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Aug 4 20:13:57 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id UAA25855; Fri, 4 Aug 2000 20:10:19 +1200 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (smtp2.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.8]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id UAA25789 for ; Fri, 4 Aug 2000 20:02:33 +1200 Received: from dworkin (p64-tnt5.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.194.64]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id TAA20470 for ; Fri, 4 Aug 2000 19:56:38 +1200 Message-ID: <004701bffde9$b8142b00$4301a8c0@dworkin.ihug.co.nz> Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 19:58:03 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: Re: George Mitchinson's Initiative system From: "Dworkin" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Jim wrote >This is George's combat system. Why he didn't simply post it, I don't know. > >The first change is that unengaged combat now occurs only before the fight >to allow the combating groups a chance to manoeuvre and perceive the tactics >of the opponents. Once one person hits another person everyone goes to >engaged combat. >Engaged initiative is based on the weapon you are holding or if you are a >spell caster your unarmed initiative. >This means that all NPC’s of a type act together and the player’s act in the >same order each time, which means they can plan better and can keep track of >the pulse. >Spells go off at the end of the pulse if the group is unengaged and on the >initiative of the caster if engaged. >Players may elect to hold their actions to allow a slower member of the same >group to go before them. > > > This is my analysis. > 1) This means that unarmed combat provides you with an initiative bonus >while casting a spell or firing a bow or throwing a rock, or what have you. >The result of this is that, given the nature of combat, a spell (in a cast >pulse) will be cast faster than a fighter can swing their sword, seeing as >none of the swinging weapons go to Rank 10, and Unarmed Combat does. > 2) It creates this weird thing where spells are slow at the beginning of >a combat, but then accelerate. I don't know why this happens. I don't see >what benefit accrues from it working that way. > 3) It means that initiative is frozen, and doesn't vary. Once >established, the initiative is set for the rest of the encounter. Amongst >the players, it's completely frozen. > > I don't think this initiative system is worth using. It doesn't offer >anything new, it's merely simple. It doesn't contribute to a sense of >dramatic flow in the story. > Perhaps, with more work, something could be done with this variant. > William I actually liked it. It was simple and easy to understand. Players knew when they got to do something and knowing this meant they could plan their action and spit it out when George pointed and said "you". This is a vast improvement to the usual umming and arring and questions about what has been said ten times already. Players also just want to be able to do stuff and don't really care if it's always the same. It makes combats go at a fast pace since they get into a nice steady flow. This is what I want in a combat. Actually when I'm a player I want to see things go splat. I dont want delays or stupid questions or hesitations. I want blood, lots of it and I'm not choosy over who's it is. :-) Georges system helps fufill this criteria. To make for some variability each PC, NPC and team of extras could have (insert variables here) added and totaled at the start of engaged battle. The GM then arranges the order and sets to. I really liked the idea of everyone becoming "engaged" (acting on an engaged initiative) once someone whacks another. Most ranges in DQ are pretty small and so once battle is joined everyone could easily be considered to be part of the overall melee. The whole engaged/unengaged sequence bugs me. William -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Aug 4 20:43:57 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id UAA26222; Fri, 4 Aug 2000 20:33:45 +1200 Received: from smtp4.ihug.co.nz (smtp4.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.5]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id UAA26219 for ; Fri, 4 Aug 2000 20:32:29 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p269-tnt2.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.255.15]) by smtp4.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id UAA03677 for ; Fri, 4 Aug 2000 20:28:22 +1200 Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 20:22:23 +1200 Message-ID: <01bffded$1e424800$0fff6dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Initiative systems From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Perhaps it would be salutory to think about this, before plunging ahead with initiative systems: What do we want initiative to do? Do we want it to reflect experience? The person with more experience has more initiative? Do we want it to reflect the action choice of the character? In other words, characters essaying a simple action will garner an initiative bonus, while characters choosing complicated actions would take penalties. Do we want it to measure the AG of the character taking an action? If we do, which actions should it pertain to? Should other stats have a role to play in initiative? For example, should MA be important for determining spell initiative? Should there be skills, talents or whatever, that allow a character to increase their initiative? But, possibly, the most important question that we need to ask ourselves is simply this: What initiative system will contibute to an encounter in a way that best advances a story? The rest is really not worth talking about UNTIL we have determined what would achieve that end. For it to work as a story telling aid, then it has to: Provide an opportunity where expectation can be balanced against uncertainty. Which means that it cannot be something where you know, with certainty, when your next action will occur. Allow for a situation where in MOST cases there is an exchange of some sort. Because of the stun rules, a combat sequence can run A hits B and stuns B, so that the only action B can take is to recover from stun. End of pulse. New pulse. A hits B and stuns B, so that the only action B can take is to recover from stun. End of pulse. New pulse...You can see where this is going. I may have missed some, so if anyone else thinks of anything else an initiative system should do, that would be handy. The one thing that initiative doesn't need tobe is complex, hard to run, and involve enough computations to satisfy a Cray. -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Fri Aug 4 22:13:56 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id WAA26847; Fri, 4 Aug 2000 22:12:27 +1200 Received: from smtp4.ihug.co.nz (smtp4.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.5]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id WAA26844 for ; Fri, 4 Aug 2000 22:12:15 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p87-tnt1.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.18.111.87]) by smtp4.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id WAA12565 for ; Fri, 4 Aug 2000 22:07:50 +1200 Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 22:01:50 +1200 Message-ID: <01bffdfb$021c7020$576f12ce@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: George Mitchinson's Initiative system From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz >William Dymock wrote: > >I actually liked it. It was simple and easy to understand. Players knew when >they got to do something and knowing this meant they could plan their action >and spit it out when George pointed and said "you". This is a vast >improvement to the usual umming and arring and questions about what has been >said ten times already. Players also just want to be able to do stuff and >don't really care if it's always the same. It makes combats go at a fast >pace since they get into a nice steady flow. This is what I want in a >combat. Then, what you're saying is that it has the advantage of ease of play. As opposed to the current one, which varies depending on whether or not you're engaged, and, if you are engaged, what you'd doing that engaging with. Simplicity has a lot to offer. It is, as you say, swift and easy to administer. That counts for a lot. However, using Unarmed Combat as part of the equation is a mistake, because it applies pressure to dedicated mages to acquire advanced ranks in a weapon skill, which means that a non-warrior fighter will act slower, because they are advancing so many other weapons. A dedicated mage would only have to advance one weapon skill, UC. They would be better at it than a non-warrior fighter. > >Actually when I'm a player I want to see things go splat. I dont want delays >or stupid questions or hesitations. I want blood, lots of it and I'm not >choosy over who's it is. :-) There are lots of reasons for a variable initiative system. One is that if things are the same, then a character will either always win initiative, or always lose it against one or more other characters. Which, in turn, means, that a combat encounter becomes more like playing cards than an evocation of a fight. Which is tedious. I'm not interested. More, I won't accept it in my game. > >To make for some variability each PC, NPC and team of extras could have >(insert variables here) added and totaled at the start of engaged battle. >The GM then arranges the order and sets to. > >I really liked the idea of everyone becoming "engaged" (acting on an engaged >initiative) once someone whacks another. Most ranges in DQ are pretty small >and so once battle is joined everyone could easily be considered to be part >of the overall melee. The whole engaged/unengaged sequence bugs me. Engaged initiative uses AG as a base. Frankly, I have actually never seen someone's dexterity have any impact on who acts first. Initiative is not a function of how good your reflexes are, or how fast you move around. It is something that is the result of being less panicked, cooler under fire, and more brutal than your opposition. Some of the good John Wayne movies were the ones were he played a character called Rooster Cogburn. Rooster is asked why he's such a successful gun fighter (he's about 60 or so at the time) . He responds by saying that '...Ah ain't the faster man with a gun. But, others people hesitate when faced with th' awful prospect of endin' another man's life. Ah don't.' I believe that to be the central nub of initiative. We can talk about how dancing around in armoured underwear contributes to initiative, but personally, I don't believe a word of it. In other situations, the person who was fastest had sod all ability at determining who went first. Speed, if it does anything at all, provides you with a better chance of avoiding being hit, whether by body-voiding, dodging or retreating out of range. It can contribute to damage because of the speed of the weapon, or a surprise attack because of the quickness with which a weapon might be used. Someone who is very fast might be able to pull off a snap kick in a fight, for example. Part of what initiative is about is having a plan, keeping an eye out for a victory condition and the ability to amend the plan you have, once contact with the enemy has been established. It's also about morale. While morale might not actually provide a bonus to initiative, it offers a resistance against degrading your initiative. The higher the morale, the greater the resistance. As morale fails, the range of action choices diminish until the only choices that remain are flight or surrender. And, sometimes even those aren't available. We don't reduce action choices to players, as their morale gets eaten up. Instead, they pit their character against the vagaries of the world. They make their own choice about their morale, really, in general based on their apprehension of the closeness of serious death. We might consider some kind of penalty to initiative, though. -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sat Aug 5 21:44:05 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id VAA03805; Sat, 5 Aug 2000 21:37:56 +1200 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (smtp2.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.8]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id VAA03802 for ; Sat, 5 Aug 2000 21:36:45 +1200 Received: from ihug.co.nz (p31-max23.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.157.223]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id VAA15283 for ; Sat, 5 Aug 2000 21:31:55 +1200 Message-ID: <398BE007.F5703298@ihug.co.nz> Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2000 21:36:07 +1200 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Quickness From: scott whitaker To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Jim Arona wrote: > choices resolve themselves. > I would prefer that the action flowed something like A acts, then B > responds, then A uses their extra action. It has more story flow. > But, it is only a preference. > > This is how quickness currently works. All quickened people have their first action, then all non-quickened, then quickened people have their second action. This is the way it has been played since I joined the guild about 10 - 12 years ago. Scott Whitaker -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sun Aug 6 01:28:58 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id BAA05091; Sun, 6 Aug 2000 01:28:17 +1200 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (smtp2.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.8]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id BAA05088 for ; Sun, 6 Aug 2000 01:28:11 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p172-tnt2.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.245.172]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id BAA23442 for ; Sun, 6 Aug 2000 01:23:20 +1200 Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2000 01:17:07 +1200 Message-ID: <01bffedf$74d15060$acf56dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Quickness From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Scott Whittaker wrote: >> choices resolve themselves. >> I would prefer that the action flowed something like A acts, then B >> responds, then A uses their extra action. It has more story flow. >> But, it is only a preference. >> >> > >This is how quickness currently works. All quickened people have their first >action, then all non-quickened, then quickened people have their second action. > >This is the way it has been played since I joined the guild about 10 - 12 years >ago. No. Different DMs apply different rules. As it stands, at the moment, your actions are resolved on your initiative. If you're Quickened, then you have two at that time. I don't know that many people play it that way. And, in any case, I was talking about other things, really. -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sun Aug 6 16:59:32 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id QAA11271; Sun, 6 Aug 2000 16:43:42 +1200 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id QAA11267 for ; Sun, 6 Aug 2000 16:43:01 +1200 Received: from work.ihug.co.nz (p159-tnt5.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.194.159]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id QAA32721 for ; Sun, 6 Aug 2000 16:37:36 +1200 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.0.20000806163238.00a82740@pop.ihug.co.nz> X-Sender: phaeton@pop.ihug.co.nz X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2000 16:34:04 +1200 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: Results of August 2000 Gods Meeting From: Keith Smith To: dq-announce@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq-announce@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz No meeting took place owing to the extreme lack of a quorum. Keith (phaeton@ihug.co.nz) -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sun Aug 6 17:13:57 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id RAA11470; Sun, 6 Aug 2000 17:12:05 +1200 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id RAA11416 for ; Sun, 6 Aug 2000 17:03:56 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p159-tnt2.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.245.159]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id QAA01884 for ; Sun, 6 Aug 2000 16:58:40 +1200 Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2000 16:52:22 +1200 Message-ID: <01bfff62$1c017a40$9ff56dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Results of August 2000 Gods Meeting From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz I overslept...Sorry. -----Original Message----- From: Keith Smith To: dq-announce@dq.sf.org.nz Date: Sunday, 6 August 2000 16:56 Subject: Results of August 2000 Gods Meeting >No meeting took place owing to the extreme lack of a quorum. > >Keith >(phaeton@ihug.co.nz) > > > >-- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- > -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sun Aug 6 17:58:57 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id RAA11830; Sun, 6 Aug 2000 17:46:09 +1200 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (smtp2.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.8]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id RAA11801 for ; Sun, 6 Aug 2000 17:44:27 +1200 Received: from work.ihug.co.nz (p159-tnt5.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.194.159]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id RAA27241 for ; Sun, 6 Aug 2000 17:39:01 +1200 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.0.20000806172225.00c181a0@pop.ihug.co.nz> X-Sender: flamis@pop.ihug.co.nz (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2000 17:35:28 +1200 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: Initiative From: Jacqui Smith To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Enhances fighters compared to mages - I know there are quite a few people who feel the pure fighter option is greatly underpowered currently. But that won't actually be the effect. What will happen is that fighter-mages (and even mages who can fight) will choose to hit things instead of casting spells at them. Simply because they do more damage that way. The pure fighter option may be always be a somewhat underpowered choice. Especially outside of the combat sequence. > Leaves some players with little to do, hence bored. If you are spell casting, others get to have 4 actions in the time you get to walk two hexes and make a cast check. (Hm, probably get to walk 4 hexes - both half phases when you are preparing should allow a 2 hex move when quickened.) Being the pure mage always involves large chucks of time while other people do stuff and you just wave at the GM and say "I'm preparing..." One question for people to respond to before I present a possible solution to the initiative problem - which will also smoothly integrate Quickness and Slowness. Given that using unarmed combat ranks is not the most elegant way to determine a spell-caster's engaged initiative, what would suit? IN = PC + MD + 1/2 spell rank + D10? IN = PC + (AG+ MD)/2 + 1/2 spell rank + D10? IN = PC + AG + 1/2 spell rank + D10? (Note: weapon initiative would be IN = PC + AG + weapon rank + D10 in this system. The D10 gives variation without putting the excessive strain on those of us whose mental arithmetic isn't what it used to be that Jim's add D100 system does.) Jacqui -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sun Aug 6 18:18:24 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id SAA12039; Sun, 6 Aug 2000 18:13:42 +1200 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id SAA11982 for ; Sun, 6 Aug 2000 18:07:29 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p159-tnt2.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.245.159]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id SAA06890 for ; Sun, 6 Aug 2000 18:01:41 +1200 Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2000 17:55:25 +1200 Message-ID: <01bfff6a$ea9df560$9ff56dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Initiative From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Jacqui Smith wrote: >One question for people to respond to before I present a possible solution >to the initiative problem - which will also smoothly integrate Quickness >and Slowness. STOP NOW! Everyone, stop. Instead of producing a system, think about what we want it to do. Discuss that, first. What's the point of developing a new initiative system, before we know what we want it to do? And, eqations that demonstrate the grace and agility of your mathematical genius are a complete waste of time if we still haven't worked out what we want initiative to do. First principles, people, first principles. We are endlessly chasing around parts of the system, often without working out what we want to do. In some cases, that's fine. Initiative is central to the story telling aspect of combat. It's too important not to have an idea of what we want it to achieve. -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sun Aug 6 18:28:56 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id SAA12068; Sun, 6 Aug 2000 18:14:46 +1200 Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id SAA11985 for ; Sun, 6 Aug 2000 18:08:27 +1200 Received: from jimarona.ihug.co.nz (p159-tnt2.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.245.159]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id SAA07008 for ; Sun, 6 Aug 2000 18:03:09 +1200 Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2000 17:56:53 +1200 Message-ID: <01bfff6b$1ee6f7e0$9ff56dcb@jimarona.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Subject: Re: Initiative From: "Jim Arona" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Jacqui Smith wrote: >(Note: weapon initiative would be IN = PC + AG + weapon rank + D10 in this >system. The D10 gives variation without putting the excessive strain on >those of us whose mental arithmetic isn't what it used to be that Jim's add >D100 system does.) It isn't a problem for players that attend the game properly, and have their initiative values worked out. They don't seem to take any real amount of time determining it. In any case, although I'd like to steal the thunder for that idea, it isn't mine, it's Paul Schmidt's. -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Aug 7 09:58:58 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id JAA17235; Mon, 7 Aug 2000 09:48:58 +1200 Received: from mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (mailhost.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.1.4]) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id JAA17232 for ; Mon, 7 Aug 2000 09:48:53 +1200 Received: from sci4 (lbr-122-42.lbrsc.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.122.42]) by mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (8.9.2/8.9.2/8.9.2-ua) with SMTP id JAA10120 for ; Mon, 7 Aug 2000 09:43:28 +1200 (NZST) Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 09:43:53 +1200 Message-ID: <000101bfffef$6a4bc380$2a7ad882@sci4> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Subject: RE: Initiative -- objectives From: "Michael Parkinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz William said: > The whole engaged/unengaged sequence bugs me. I also find it an irritation -- In terms of desirable principles, it is absurd that no matter how slow a combatant may be w.r.t. all other characters, it still gets to do its action [contribution to the story]. Some combat circumstances *should* have an "initiative advantage," as it were, over certain other actions/actors (e.g., attacking from behind *should* confer an advantage, possibly absolutely, over the person being attacked). Similarly we may(?) find it desirable to allow combatants to have an *edge* over unengaged non-combatants, since a hand-to-hand fight is usually more interesting than shooting an arrow into the combat -- but the rule should not be absolute. Jaqui said/quoted: > Given that using unarmed combat ranks is not the most elegant way to > determine a spell-caster's engaged initiative, what would suit? > IN = PC + MD + 1/2 spell rank + D10? > IN = PC + (AG+ MD)/2 + 1/2 spell rank + D10? > IN = PC + AG + 1/2 spell rank + D10? Why these numbers? because you are trying to force one form of initiative to match another. I think that assumption needs to be queried. Why do we like a d10, or any other random element -- because the concept that initiative is fixed absolutely for the character doesn't agree with our intuitive feel for combat (in the widest sense). I totally agree with a random element for combat, meaning those fighting or those about to fight. However I doubt its desirability for magic. All magic takes a certain time to prepare &/or cast &/or trigger. I have NO problem with this being fixed for a particular mage with certain ranks or stat-points; indeed I prefer it. Therefore I suggest a reasonable principle is that there are two [or, less desirably, at least two]initiatives: REAL actions like rushing into battle, or swinging a weapon, or getting something out of a back-pack, or running away, or firing a bow ... MAGIC actions: casting or triggering. Whilst it should be possibly to delay the onset of the commencement of a magical action, there is no way you should be able to fluke or squeeze it out a little bit faster. Conversely Real actions *are* subject to randomness or fluidity. One other principle is that the Military scientist should have *some* effect on some sorts of initiative -- you expect to have an advantage because you are probably better organised with one than without one. I suggest, though, that a MilScientist should only give an edge to *real* situations. but I don't see how a MilSci can give the mages that slight edge on spell-casting or triggering in the pulse. Yes, a Milsci can order/suggest a good position for spell attack (for line of vision, or physical safety of the battery, I mean mages) so that an organised mage has *several pulses* to hit the enemy before they can reply in hand-to-hand; but fractions of a second advantage within the pulse? ... I think not. Michael -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Mon Aug 7 11:29:02 2000 Received: (from bin@localhost) by mail.sf.org.nz (8.8.6/NZSFI-20000705) id LAA17929; Mon, 7 Aug 2000 11:24:59 +1200 Received: from kakapo.cs.auckland.ac.nz (kakapo.cs