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Subject: Re: A wee dram (or two hundred & fifty)
From: Rosemary_Mansfield/AJNzl/NZ@AJ.CO.NZ
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I've always thought that by a 'quart' we mean quarter of a pint - not=20
quarter of a gallon, even knowing that the later is what a quart is.

This is also approximately the volume of the Guild healing potions (which=20
everyone knows are move concentrated that Waters of Healing).

We should probably standardized them to either 1/4 or 1/2 pint to make=20
live easy.

Rosemary
=20


Dear all,

Quote from Herbalist 38[.0]:

"Potions are always roughly a quart per dose and weigh
with their container =BD pound."

Actually a quart of water weighs just over 2 lb, *without* its container.
Btw, as a relic of pre-metric times explaining those new-fangled units, a
"kilogram" was said to be the approximate equivalent of a full pint bottle
of milk (i.e. milk & glass bottle).

Furthermore, drinking a quart [i.e. quarter of a gallon; the volume of
about one & a third bottles of wine] doesn't agree with most fantasy
sources.  At least you needn't worry about a potion being "slipped" into
your wine. As for sculling a quart in 1 pulse ...

Corrections/discussion welcomed.  I personally prefer herbalist "potions"
to of more medicinal volumes (a nip, an ounce or two, ...)

In comparison, Waters of Healing & Waters of strength are half a pint
(about 2/3 of a bottle of wine) -- hence about half a pound weight,=20
WITHOUT
container, if approximately the density of typically imbibable substances
(water, wine, beer).

regards, Michael (who's now in the mood for opening a bottle of something
red).

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D



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<br><font size=3D3 face=3D"sans-serif">I've always thought that by a 'quart=
' we mean quarter of a pint - not quarter of a gallon, even knowing that th=
e later is what a quart is.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3D3 face=3D"sans-serif">This is also approximately the volum=
e of the Guild healing potions (which everyone knows are move concentrated =
that Waters of Healing).</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3D3 face=3D"sans-serif">We should probably standardized them=
 to either 1/4 or 1/2 pint to make live easy.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3D3 face=3D"sans-serif">Rosemary</font>
<br><font size=3D3 face=3D"sans-serif">&nbsp;</font>
<br>
<br>
<br><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New">Dear all,<br>
<br>
Quote from Herbalist 38[.0]:<br>
<br>
&quot;Potions are always roughly a quart per dose and weigh<br>
with their container =BD pound.&quot;<br>
<br>
Actually a quart of water weighs just over 2 lb, *without* its container.<b=
r>
Btw, as a relic of pre-metric times explaining those new-fangled units, a<b=
r>
&quot;kilogram&quot; was said to be the approximate equivalent of a full pi=
nt bottle<br>
of milk (i.e. milk &amp; glass bottle).<br>
<br>
Furthermore, drinking a quart [i.e. quarter of a gallon; the volume of<br>
about one &amp; a third bottles of wine] doesn't agree with most fantasy<br>
sources. &nbsp;At least you needn't worry about a potion being &quot;slippe=
d&quot; into<br>
your wine. As for sculling a quart in 1 pulse ...<br>
<br>
Corrections/discussion welcomed. &nbsp;I personally prefer herbalist &quot;=
potions&quot;<br>
to of more medicinal volumes (a nip, an ounce or two, ...)<br>
<br>
In comparison, Waters of Healing &amp; Waters of strength are half a pint<b=
r>
(about 2/3 of a bottle of wine) -- hence about half a pound weight, WITHOUT=
<br>
container, if approximately the density of typically imbibable substances<b=
r>
(water, wine, beer).<br>
<br>
regards, Michael (who's now in the mood for opening a bottle of something<b=
r>
red).<br>
<br>
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
-- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html --<br>
</font>
<br>
<br>
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From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz  Tue Sep 19 10:43:50 2000
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Subject: Re: A wee dram (or two hundred & fifty)
From: Keith Smith <phaeton@ihug.co.nz>
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Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz


>I've always thought that by a 'quart' we mean quarter of a pint - not 
>quarter of a gallon, even knowing that the later is what a quart is.
>
>This is also approximately the volume of the Guild healing potions (which 
>everyone knows are move concentrated that Waters of Healing).
>
>We should probably standardized them to either 1/4 or 1/2 pint to make 
>live easy.

I quite agree. We had this same discussion in our household only last week, 
and came to the conclusion that there was no way a healing potion could be 
drunk in a pulse, let alone a  Waters of Healing.

Personally I've never heard of a 'quart' being a quarter of a pint.

Keith
(phaeton@ihug.co.nz)



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From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz  Tue Sep 19 11:13:49 2000
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Subject: Re: A wee dram (or two hundred & fifty)
From: Rosemary_Mansfield/AJNzl/NZ@AJ.CO.NZ
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Personally I've never heard of a 'quart' being a quarter of a pint.

Keith

It's not - as I said I've always just thought that was about the amount 
potions were.
Rosemary
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<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">Personally I've never heard of a 'quart' being a quarter of a pint.<br>
<br>
Keith</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3 face="sans-serif">It's not - as I said I've always just thought that was about the amount potions were.</font>
<br><font size=3 face="sans-serif">Rosemary</font>
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From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz  Tue Sep 19 14:28:45 2000
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Subject: Re: A wee dram (or two hundred & fifty)
From: Jacqui Smith <flamis@ihug.co.nz>
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Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz

At 06:52 PM 9/18/00 +1200, you wrote:
>Quote from Herbalist 38[.0]:
>
>"Potions are always roughly a quart per dose and weigh
>with their container =BD pound."
>
>Actually a quart of water weighs just over 2 lb, *without* its container.
>Btw, as a relic of pre-metric times explaining those new-fangled units, a
>"kilogram" was said to be the approximate equivalent of a full pint bottle
>of milk (i.e. milk & glass bottle).
>
>Furthermore, drinking a quart [i.e. quarter of a gallon; the volume of
>about one & a third bottles of wine] doesn't agree with most fantasy
>sources.  At least you needn't worry about a potion being "slipped" into
>your wine. As for sculling a quart in 1 pulse ...
>
>Corrections/discussion welcomed.  I personally prefer herbalist "potions"
>to of more medicinal volumes (a nip, an ounce or two, ...)

Methinks that if we intend to persist in using archaic units in the rules,=
=20
then an appendix with the meanings of units and conversion factors could be=
=20
very useful, especially for the younger members of the guild.

As for potions, perhaps fluid oz would be the most appropriate unit,=20
instead of all those painful fractions. There are (as I recall) 20 fl oz in=
=20
the pint. A potion might be as little as one or two fl. oz. Which makes=20
sense when you consider the amounts of medicine the doctor prescribes  for=
=20
us to take. (A tablespoon is 15ml, roughly half a fluid ounce).

Alternatively, we could always go metric...

Jacqui






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Subject: Re: A wee dram (or two hundred & fifty)
From: Clare West <clare@cs.auckland.ac.nz>
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Reply-To: clare@cs.auckland.ac.nz


On Tuesday, September 19, 2000, at 02:17 PM, Jacqui Smith wrote:

> As for potions, perhaps fluid oz would be the most appropriate unit, =20=

> instead of all those painful fractions. There are (as I recall) 20 fl =
oz in =20
> the pint.=20

While that is what your recall, I suspect (but haven't checked) that the =
rules may be confused on this issue. In the US (and probably Canada) a =
pint is 16 fluid ounces, in NZ (and most of the commonwealth, but =
probably not Canada) a pint os 20 fluid ounces.

> A potion might be as little as one or two fl. oz. Which makes =20
> sense when you consider the amounts of medicine the doctor prescribes  =
for =20
> us to take. (A tablespoon is 15ml, roughly half a fluid ounce).=20

especially for the Wiccan potions, which I think we want it to be =
feasible to slip into someone's drink I agree.

> Alternatively, we could always go metric...=20

I don't like this idea. The archaic measurement system helps to remove =
us from the real world I think.

clare
--
Clare West                         Thou shalt not follow the NULL =
pointer,
clare@cs.auckland.ac.nz        for chaos and madness await thee at its =
end
=20=


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Subject: RE: A wee dram (or two hundred & fifty)
From: "Michael Parkinson" <m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz>
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Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz


> As for potions, perhaps fluid oz would be the most appropriate unit,
> instead of all those painful fractions. There are (as I recall)
> 20 fl oz in
> the pint.

Historically a fluid ounce WAS an ounce [avoirdupois] of pure water;
just as a fluid dram WAS an dram of pure water [1/16th of an oz. avoir.]
Hence 16 [fluid] ounces make 1 pint, if a pint weighs almost exactly a
pound which was the case with the traditional Wine measure.

It is the pint, which dates from about the 13th cent., that has changed so
much.  And unfortunately NZ pints were the imperial (1826) measure of 34.66
cubic inches. -- Pity that the word (O.E. ynce; L. uncia) meant a twelfth
part (not a sixteenth).

I suggest that we adopt the "pint" which weighs a "pound" and divide it (or
each) into ounces -- preferably 12; the same way a foot is divided into 12
inches.

Aside: this is why "Troy" & "Tower" measurement is superior (1 lb = 12
ounces; 1 ounce = 20 pennyweights;  240 pennies = 1 pound as a monetary
measure and weight 1 pound).

Unfortunately 1 pound avoirdupois (= 16 oz avoirdupois) of  equals NEITHER
Tower pound of 5400 grains [named after the standard weight in the Tower of
London.]  NOR the Troy pound of 5760 grains.  It is left to the reader to
prove that 1 oz does not equal 1 oz.
i.e. 1 lb avoir. = 14.5833 oz. Troy  & conversely
     1 lb Troy = 13.165714 oz. avoir
Btw, the roman libra (of about 327.25 g) equals none of the above.

> A potion might be as little as one or two fl. oz. Which makes
> sense when you consider the amounts of medicine the doctor
> prescribes  for us to take. (A tablespoon is 15ml, roughly half a fluid
ounce).

I tend to agree:  the mystique of the apothecary's shelf of tinctures
disappears when you realise that they equate to individual doses under our
system.  I'd prefer a  potion to be a smallish measure of fluid (possibly
alcoholic) in an interesting flask.  Small enough to be added to a
reasonably-sized goblet of wine, or whatever ...

> Alternatively, we could always go metric...

Heaven forfend!.  You're as bad as the Germans who have redefined the pfund
(pound) as exactly 500 grams.

regards, Michael

Btw, an Ounce is also less than a Pard or a Lyoun.



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Subject: RE: A wee dram (or two hundred & fifty)
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The nice thing about fluid ounces (excl. US?), is that one fluid ounce
weights an ounce.
If we say that a pint is 20 ounces (fluid or otherwise), then a pint is 1
1/4 pounds, which is "reality". If we say a pint is 16 ounces, then 1 pint =
1 pound, 1 fl oz = 1 oz. This is really tidy.

Andrew

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Clare West [SMTP:clare@cs.auckland.ac.nz]
> Sent:	Tuesday, September 19, 2000 2:48 PM
> To:	dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject:	Re: A wee dram (or two hundred & fifty)
> 
> 
> On Tuesday, September 19, 2000, at 02:17 PM, Jacqui Smith wrote:
> 
> > As for potions, perhaps fluid oz would be the most appropriate unit,  
> > instead of all those painful fractions. There are (as I recall) 20 fl oz
> in  
> > the pint. 
> 
> While that is what your recall, I suspect (but haven't checked) that the
> rules may be confused on this issue. In the US (and probably Canada) a
> pint is 16 fluid ounces, in NZ (and most of the commonwealth, but probably
> not Canada) a pint os 20 fluid ounces.
> 
> > A potion might be as little as one or two fl. oz. Which makes  
> > sense when you consider the amounts of medicine the doctor prescribes
> for  
> > us to take. (A tablespoon is 15ml, roughly half a fluid ounce). 
> 
> especially for the Wiccan potions, which I think we want it to be feasible
> to slip into someone's drink I agree.
> 
> 

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charset=3DUS-ASCII">
<META NAME=3D"Generator" CONTENT=3D"MS Exchange Server version =
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<TITLE>RE: A wee dram (or two hundred &amp; fifty)</TITLE>
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<BODY>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">The nice thing about =
fluid ounces (excl. US?), is that one fluid ounce weights an =
ounce.</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">If we say that a =
pint is 20 ounces (fluid or otherwise), then a pint is 1 1/4 pounds, =
which is &quot;reality&quot;. If we say a pint is 16 ounces, then 1 =
pint =3D 1 pound, 1 fl oz =3D 1 oz. This is really tidy.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Andrew</FONT>
</P>
<UL>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">-----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">From:&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></B> <FONT =
SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">Clare West =
[SMTP:clare@cs.auckland.ac.nz]</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">Sent:&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></B> <FONT =
SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">Tuesday, September 19, 2000 2:48 PM</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D1 =
FACE=3D"Arial">To:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></B> <FONT SIZE=3D1 =
FACE=3D"Arial">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D1 =
FACE=3D"Arial">Subject:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT>=
</B> <FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">Re: A wee dram (or two hundred &amp; =
fifty)</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">On Tuesday, September 19, 2000, at =
02:17 PM, Jacqui Smith wrote:</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; As for potions, perhaps fluid oz =
would be the most appropriate unit,&nbsp; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; instead of all those painful =
fractions. There are (as I recall) 20 fl oz in&nbsp; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; the pint. </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">While that is what your recall, I =
suspect (but haven't checked) that the rules may be confused on this =
issue. In the US (and probably Canada) a pint is 16 fluid ounces, in NZ =
(and most of the commonwealth, but probably not Canada) a pint os 20 =
fluid ounces.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; A potion might be as little as =
one or two fl. oz. Which makes&nbsp; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; sense when you consider the =
amounts of medicine the doctor prescribes&nbsp; for&nbsp; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; us to take. (A tablespoon is =
15ml, roughly half a fluid ounce). </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">especially for the Wiccan potions, =
which I think we want it to be feasible to slip into someone's drink I =
agree.</FONT>
</P>
<BR>
</UL>
</BODY>
</HTML>
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Subject: RE: A wee dram (or two hundred & fifty)
From: Jacqui Smith <flamis@ihug.co.nz>
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>Historically a fluid ounce WAS an ounce [avoirdupois] of pure water;
>just as a fluid dram WAS an dram of pure water [1/16th of an oz. avoir.]
>Hence 16 [fluid] ounces make 1 pint, if a pint weighs almost exactly a
>pound which was the case with the traditional Wine measure.
>
>It is the pint, which dates from about the 13th cent., that has changed so
>much.  And unfortunately NZ pints were the imperial (1826) measure of 34.66
>cubic inches. -- Pity that the word (O.E. ynce; L. uncia) meant a twelfth
>part (not a sixteenth).

I was going by my measuring jug... (-;

>I suggest that we adopt the "pint" which weighs a "pound" and divide it (or
>each) into ounces -- preferably 12; the same way a foot is divided into 12
>inches.
>
>Aside: this is why "Troy" & "Tower" measurement is superior (1 lb = 12
>ounces; 1 ounce = 20 pennyweights;  240 pennies = 1 pound as a monetary
>measure and weight 1 pound).

Er ... I had heard of troy ounces. I didn't know what they were.

>Unfortunately 1 pound avoirdupois (= 16 oz avoirdupois) of  equals NEITHER
>Tower pound of 5400 grains [named after the standard weight in the Tower of
>London.]  NOR the Troy pound of 5760 grains.  It is left to the reader to
>prove that 1 oz does not equal 1 oz.
>i.e. 1 lb avoir. = 14.5833 oz. Troy  & conversely
>      1 lb Troy = 13.165714 oz. avoir
>Btw, the roman libra (of about 327.25 g) equals none of the above.

Argghhhh!

> > A potion might be as little as one or two fl. oz. Which makes
> > sense when you consider the amounts of medicine the doctor
> > prescribes  for us to take. (A tablespoon is 15ml, roughly half a fluid
>ounce).
>
>I tend to agree:  the mystique of the apothecary's shelf of tinctures
>disappears when you realise that they equate to individual doses under our
>system.  I'd prefer a  potion to be a smallish measure of fluid (possibly
>alcoholic) in an interesting flask.  Small enough to be added to a
>reasonably-sized goblet of wine, or whatever ...

I checked the D&D 3rd Ed DMG. Potions are 1 ounce. Probably means they 
weigh one ounce, rather than measure one fluid ounce, but there you go...

> > Alternatively, we could always go metric...
>
>Heaven forfend!.  You're as bad as the Germans who have redefined the pfund
>(pound) as exactly 500 grams.

Maybe Keith has some German in him...

I still think a Weights and Measures Appendix would be a good idea. As well 
as dropping potion volumes to the fluid ounce level instead of half pints. 
Pints are for beer and beverages, not potions and poisons...

Jacqui




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