From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Oct 19 10:59:39 2000 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by mae.sub.net.nz (8.9.3/NZSFI-20000705) id KAA27387; Thu, 19 Oct 2000 10:52:31 +1300 Received: from dslak11.datacom.co.nz (dslak11.datacom.co.nz [202.27.76.113]) by mae.sub.net.nz (8.9.3/NZSFI-20000705) with SMTP id KAA27384 for ; Thu, 19 Oct 2000 10:52:27 +1300 Received: from dslak12.dslak.co.nz (192.203.216.23) by dslak11.datacom.co.nz Thursday, October 19, 2000 10:51:22 Message-ID: Received: by dslak12.dslak.co.nz with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id <451M7GY8>; Thu, 19 Oct 2000 10:51:29 +1300 Message-ID: <47E0B9F9F429D311958600508B4AB6E9033B594F@dslak12.dslak.co.nz> Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 10:51:29 +1300 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Subject: Witchsight From: "Andrew Withy (DSL AK)" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz A number of GMs don't seem to like the DQ2000 Witchsight change - for instance my previous GM found it counter-intuitive, and my current GM has reverted to the old rules. Do we want to look at reversing the change? Andrew Note new address andreww@datacom.co.nz -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Oct 19 11:19:40 2000 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by mae.sub.net.nz (8.9.3/NZSFI-20000705) id LAA27521; Thu, 19 Oct 2000 11:16:52 +1300 Received: from defacto.peace.co.nz (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mae.sub.net.nz (8.9.3/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id LAA27517 for ; Thu, 19 Oct 2000 11:16:50 +1300 Message-ID: <39EE2155.7F18F8AE@peace.com> Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 11:16:54 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Witchsight From: Michael Woodhams To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: michael.woodhams@peace.com "Andrew Withy (DSL AK)" wrote: > A number of GMs don't seem to like the DQ2000 Witchsight change - for > instance my previous GM found it counter-intuitive, and my current GM has > reverted to the old rules. Do we want to look at reversing the change? > > Andrew > Note new address andreww@datacom.co.nz > > -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- Given that no rule change will take effect until the next publication of the rulebook anyhow, we might as well give people as much time as possible to get used to the new rules before voting on whether to dump them. Perhaps they grow on you over time (sort of like a tumor.) However, if we want to replace them with something else new, rather than simply reverting to the old system, then we need time for squabbling^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hdiscussion about the replacement. Michael W. -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Oct 19 13:39:52 2000 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by mae.sub.net.nz (8.9.3/NZSFI-20000705) id NAA29691; Thu, 19 Oct 2000 13:30:49 +1300 Received: from akl-notes2.aj.co.nz (akl-notes.aj.co.nz [202.27.194.165]) by mae.sub.net.nz (8.9.3/NZSFI-20000705) with SMTP id NAA29688 for ; Thu, 19 Oct 2000 13:30:47 +1300 X-Authentication-Warning: mae.sub.net.nz: Host akl-notes.aj.co.nz [202.27.194.165] claimed to be akl-notes2.aj.co.nz Received: from akl-notes.aj.co.nz ([192.168.4.165]) by akl-notes2.aj.co.nz (Lotus Domino Release 5.0.4) with ESMTP id 2000101913320228:12665 ; Thu, 19 Oct 2000 13:32:02 +1200 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.5 September 22, 2000 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 13:28:19 +1300 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on akl-notes.aj.co.nz/AJNzl/NZ(Release 5.0.4 |June 8, 2000) at 19/10/2000 12:28:18, Serialize complete at 19/10/2000 12:28:18, Itemize by SMTP Server on akl-notes2/AJNzl/NZ(Release 5.0.4 |June 8, 2000) at 19/10/2000 13:32:02, Serialize by Router on akl-notes2/AJNzl/NZ(Release 5.0.4 |June 8, 2000) at 19/10/2000 13:32:03, Serialize complete at 19/10/2000 13:32:03 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 0002CAADCC25697D_=" Subject: Re: Ranger recommendations From: Rosemary_Mansfield/AJNzl/NZ@AJ.CO.NZ To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 0002CAADCC25697D_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" In reply to Keith's suggestion ... Some Recommendations for the Ranger Skill: 1.Drop the curative plants section. This is more appropriately covered in the Herbalist skill, and it is generally impractical to use it on adventure since a full twelve hours are required. Replace this with simple 1st aid as mentioned in suggestion 4. 2.From the Ranger Environment List drop Ruins and Crypts as these micro-environments are not appropriate to almost all the ranger sub-skills - which refer to natural settings and operate in large areas. Add from the following: Freshwater Lakes and Streams, Coasts (including reefs), Arctic and Tundra, Tropical Jungle. I generally agree. Also the current divisions are physically based and don't take climate into account. Some thoughts ... I'd like to change the name of 'Fields' to 'Rural' , it should still cover all generally cultivated terrain. Change 'Rough' to 'Highlands' and have it cover hills, mountains, moors etc. ie. areas which are fertile in summer but generally snow covered in winter. The current Marshes is supposed to include rivers & ponds. Instead of Marshes AND Freshwater lakes ... how about 'Freshwater Wetlands' which includes lakes, rivers, swamps, marshes etc. I don't agree with Coastal including reefs because they are a completely different environment from land (and only people with diving abilities get to have any idea of what is going on down there). But coastal should include estuaries, deltas, saltwater marshes as well as land generally exposed to the sea. 3.Allow Rangers to add additional specialisations at Rank 6 and Rank 10 should they be able to spend time studying in that environment. Note that the first specialisation should also be gained in an environment the Ranger has experienced. Thereafter allow additional specialisations to be added at a flat cost of 2500 ep and six weeks study in the environment. This would add reason to rank the skill, and make it more flexible. Currently there is actually very little difference between a ranger working in their special environment and the same ranger working anywhere else. The benefit is +2% per rank on their success chances. Chicken feed really. I've had a few thoughts which can be summarised as: - leave benefit for specialization as small numbers - Start with one environment at rank 0, whatever area they learnt ranger in (eg. if learnt at Guild would have to be rural or plains, or could be based on character background) - As they get ranks 4, 8 & 10 they can learn extra environment. No extra ep, must be done as part of ranking, must be done in relevant environment, requires trainer, takes 6 weeks full time (but includes ranking time). - After rank 8 new environments can be learnt by immersion. EP cost 5000, counts as 1 training slot, no trainer needed, must be done in relevant environment, takes 6 months. 4.Add a section covering the survival skills Rangers are assumed to have in play such as the ability to find good camp sites, water, and firewood; fire-building; hunting, fishing and trapping game; foraging; basic camp cooking; building basic shelters and other structures such as travois; first aid skills and skills in crossing difficult terrain. Consider whether Rangers should have a weather sense. This would make for greater consistency between GMs. Various ideas.. Weather: rather than being able to 'predict the weather' they should know the typical climate, ie what sort of temperatures to expect at various times during the year, if the wind shifts to the north this will bring rain (or snow or whatever) when the storm season is (and what sort of storms) etc. Hunting: should go into tracking section Trapping: should be restricted to small animals (eg up to 10 lbs +10/rank) Foraging: add to 'identify plants' section. I would be quite interested in writing this up (after a little chore for Keith :-). Rosemary --=_alternative 0002CAADCC25697D_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
In reply to Keith's suggestion ...

Some Recommendations for the Ranger Skill:

1.Drop the curative plants section. This is more appropriately covered in
the Herbalist skill, and it is generally impractical to use it on adventure
since a full twelve hours are required.
Replace this with simple 1st aid as mentioned in suggestion 4.

2.From the Ranger Environment List drop Ruins and Crypts as these
micro-environments are not appropriate to almost all the ranger sub-skills
- which refer to natural settings and operate in large areas. Add from the
following: Freshwater Lakes and Streams, Coasts (including reefs), Arctic
and Tundra, Tropical Jungle.
I generally agree.  Also the current divisions are physically based and don't take climate into account.  Some thoughts ...
I'd like to change the name of 'Fields' to 'Rural' , it should still cover all generally cultivated terrain.
Change 'Rough' to 'Highlands' and have it cover hills, mountains, moors etc. ie. areas which are fertile in summer but generally snow covered in winter.
The current Marshes is supposed to include rivers & ponds.  Instead of Marshes AND Freshwater lakes ... how about 'Freshwater Wetlands' which includes lakes, rivers, swamps, marshes etc.
I don't agree with Coastal including reefs because they are a completely different environment from land (and only people with diving abilities get to have any idea of what is going on down there).  But coastal should include estuaries, deltas, saltwater marshes as well as land generally exposed to the sea.

3.Allow Rangers to add additional specialisations at Rank 6 and Rank 10
should they be able to spend time studying in that environment. Note that
the first specialisation should also be gained in an environment the Ranger
has experienced. Thereafter allow additional specialisations to be added at
a flat cost of 2500 ep and six weeks study in the environment. This would
add reason to rank the skill, and make it more flexible.
Currently there is actually very little difference between a ranger working in their special environment and the same ranger working anywhere else.  The benefit is +2% per rank on their success chances.  Chicken feed really.
I've had a few thoughts which can be summarised as:
- leave benefit for specialization as small numbers
- Start with one environment at rank 0, whatever area they learnt ranger in (eg. if learnt at Guild would have to be rural or plains, or could be based on character background)
- As they get ranks 4, 8 & 10 they can learn extra  environment.  No extra ep, must be done as part of ranking, must be done in relevant environment, requires trainer, takes 6 weeks full time (but includes ranking time).
- After rank 8 new environments can be learnt by immersion.  EP cost 5000, counts as 1 training slot, no trainer needed, must be done in relevant environment, takes 6 months.  

4.Add a section covering the survival skills Rangers are assumed to have
in play such as the ability to find good camp sites, water, and firewood;
fire-building; hunting, fishing and trapping game; foraging; basic camp
cooking; building basic shelters and other structures such as travois;
first aid skills and skills in crossing difficult terrain. Consider whether
Rangers should have a weather sense. This would make for greater
consistency between GMs.
Various ideas..
Weather: rather than being able to 'predict the weather' they should know the typical climate, ie what sort of temperatures to expect at various times during the year, if the wind shifts to the north this will bring rain (or snow or whatever) when the storm season is (and what sort of storms) etc.
Hunting: should go into tracking section
Trapping:  should be restricted to small animals (eg up to 10 lbs +10/rank)
Foraging: add to 'identify plants' section.

I would be quite interested in writing this up (after a little chore for Keith :-).
Rosemary --=_alternative 0002CAADCC25697D_=-- -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Oct 19 16:39:54 2000 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by mae.sub.net.nz (8.9.3/NZSFI-20000705) id QAA31265; Thu, 19 Oct 2000 16:29:59 +1300 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (root@smtp2.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.8]) by mae.sub.net.nz (8.9.3/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id QAA31262 for ; Thu, 19 Oct 2000 16:29:56 +1300 Received: from work.ihug.co.nz (p46-tnt1.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.173.218.46]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id QAA04215 for ; Thu, 19 Oct 2000 16:29:54 +1300 X-Authentication-Warning: smtp2.ihug.co.nz: Host p46-tnt1.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.173.218.46] claimed to be work.ihug.co.nz Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.0.20001019161448.00ab8e50@pop.ihug.co.nz> X-Sender: flamis@pop.ihug.co.nz X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 16:20:34 +1300 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: Re: Witchsight From: Jacqui Smith To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz >However, if we want to replace them with something else new, rather than >simply reverting to the old system, then we need time for >squabbling^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hdiscussion about the replacement. Actually the original proposal I made on the subject was all that was necessary... 1. Rename E&E "witchsight" to "wizardsight". 2. Fix a small error in the Wiccan version (they couldn't attempt to spot invisible objects or something). 3. Give the Celestial Spell version a base chance so that it's not automatic on all targets once successfully cast. I would consider a reduction to the base chance based on the rank of invisibility as being more appropriate than what we now have. Jacqui -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Oct 19 16:59:41 2000 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by mae.sub.net.nz (8.9.3/NZSFI-20000705) id QAA31367; Thu, 19 Oct 2000 16:55:54 +1300 Received: from dslak11.datacom.co.nz (dslak11.datacom.co.nz [202.27.76.113]) by mae.sub.net.nz (8.9.3/NZSFI-20000705) with SMTP id QAA31364 for ; Thu, 19 Oct 2000 16:55:53 +1300 Received: from dslak12.dslak.co.nz (192.203.216.23) by dslak11.datacom.co.nz Thursday, October 19, 2000 16:54:38 Message-ID: Received: by dslak12.dslak.co.nz with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id <451M7LLQ>; Thu, 19 Oct 2000 16:54:43 +1300 Message-ID: <47E0B9F9F429D311958600508B4AB6E9033B5956@dslak12.dslak.co.nz> Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 16:54:42 +1300 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Subject: RE: Witchsight From: "Andrew Withy (DSL AK)" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz I was thinking of a slightly more open discussion. 1) Does the current Witchsight solution work? 2) What problems does it have? 3) Does it achieve the goals it set out to achieve? 4) Are these goals still relevant? 5) Did the old version "work" better? And only after all of that, (6) are there any alternatives that we haven't trialed/considered that might work better? My thoughts are: 1) ish, but not well at all levels 2) (a) the all there / blue glow / nothing there trinary state is confusing to many (this may lessen with time) (b) it devalues walking unseen on low to medium games (where some people have some witchsight, but it wasn't automatic) (c) the "I can see something but I can't target it" is only a functional distinction in combat - its otherwise obvious to all with Rank 0 witchsight that a rank 20 invis person is going by, (d) it creates confusion in parties where people can't target each other because the invis's are too high 3) Yes?? 4) Umm?? 5) Yes. Andrew -----Original Message----- Actually the original proposal I made on the subject was all that was necessary... 1. Rename E&E "witchsight" to "wizardsight". 2. Fix a small error in the Wiccan version (they couldn't attempt to spot invisible objects or something). 3. Give the Celestial Spell version a base chance so that it's not automatic on all targets once successfully cast. I would consider a reduction to the base chance based on the rank of invisibility as being more appropriate than what we now have. -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Oct 19 17:29:42 2000 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by mae.sub.net.nz (8.9.3/NZSFI-20000705) id RAA31460; Thu, 19 Oct 2000 17:23:49 +1300 Received: from defacto.peace.co.nz (defacto.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.225]) by mae.sub.net.nz (8.9.3/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id RAA31457 for ; Thu, 19 Oct 2000 17:23:47 +1300 Message-ID: <39EE7756.DF249D56@peace.com> Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 17:23:51 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Witchsight From: Michael Woodhams To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk X-Loop: dq@dq.sf.org.nz X-Requests: To unsubscribe from this list, or change your subscription address, send a request to dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz. To unsubscribe from all lists on this site, send a request to all-request@dq.sf.org.nz. Reply-To: michael.woodhams@peace.com "Andrew Withy (DSL AK)" wrote: [...] > 2) What problems does it have? [...] > > My thoughts are: [...] > 2) (a) the all there / blue glow / nothing there trinary state is confusing > to many (this may lessen with time) > (b) it devalues walking unseen on low to medium games (where some people > have some witchsight, but it wasn't automatic) > (c) the "I can see something but I can't target it" is only a functional > distinction in combat - its otherwise obvious to all with Rank 0 witchsight > that a rank 20 invis person is going by, > (d) it creates confusion in parties where people can't target each other > because the invis's are too high (c) is my strongest objection to the new rules. (b) has been enormously frustrating for me, being on the losing side (witchsighting rather than invising) but that doesn't necessarily mean it is bad - the half demons are allowed to have fun too, as well as guild parties. (d) I see as not a problem. If they can't target each other invisible, they either need to cast first, use touch for targeting, or cast the invis at lower effective rank. A few random thoughts: Less than 10 ranks difference between witchsight and invis: (difference x10)% chance see blue glow, else see fully. More than 10 ranks between witchsight and invis: (diff -10)x10 % chance of seeing nothing, else see blue glow. This still has the too-many-die-rolls problem (which has never worried me personally, but worries some.) Or: Some function of difference in rank between witchsight and invis is a penalty to spell base chances, strike chances, perception rolls to notice person etc. -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html --