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Subject: DQ Rules 2000
From: Rosemary_Mansfield/AJNzl/NZ@AJ.CO.NZ
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Hi,
I've finally got around to sorting the PDF of the Rules published at the 
June Guild Meeting.

If you would like a copy, let me know & I will email it to you (it's just 
under 1 Mb).

As per various Gods discussions we will NOT be publishing this document on 
any web site (or tell people how they can get it on the web sites) so for 
a copy you need to contact me or Keith Smith, or Ross Alexander.

Sorry for the delay,
Rosemary
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<br><font size=3 face="sans-serif">Hi,</font>
<br><font size=3 face="sans-serif">I've finally got around to sorting the PDF of the Rules published at the June Guild Meeting.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3 face="sans-serif">If you would like a copy, let me know &amp; I will email it to you (it's just under 1 Mb).</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3 face="sans-serif">As per various Gods discussions we will NOT be publishing this document on any web site (or tell people how they can get it on the web sites) so for a copy you need to contact me or Keith Smith, or Ross Alexander.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3 face="sans-serif">Sorry for the delay,</font>
<br><font size=3 face="sans-serif">Rosemary</font>
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From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz  Tue Oct 24 16:00:36 2000
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Subject: Seeing through Illusion
From: "Andrew Withy (DSL AK)" <AndrewW@datacom.co.nz>
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At DQ last week a number of (other) people thought that Illusionists should
be able to see through illusions. They often have NPCs & other races seeing
through illusions. If people are going to allow other NPCs to see through
illusions as a standard thing, then perhaps we should also allow
Illusionists to see through illusions.

Two methods for doing this were bandied about:

1) special knowledge spell that allows the illusionist (and others?) to see
through any illusion (also hear, smell, etc - though this becomes hard to
word).
I would give it BC 30%, EM 200, duration 10 minutes + 10 / Rank, target
entity, Range 5' + 5'/Rank. Effect: Any illusion within range becomes
totally transparent to the target. (Or any illusion of an equal or lesser
rank?)

2) Change enhanced vision talent so that illusions of a lower or equal rank
can be seen through upon successful detection as an illusion. Range as per
the talent (10'+10/Rank). EM is currently 225.

I would prefer at least some rank-dependant component in the illusion-ignore
magic, as a way to bypass a whole college is a little frustrating if one
can't lessen its effects by pouring vast quantities of EP into one's spells
(but I speak as a player now).

Andrew


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Subject: Re: Seeing through Illusion
From: Michael Woodhams <michael.woodhams@peace.com>
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<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
"Andrew Withy (DSL AK)" wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>
<pre WRAP>At DQ last week a number of (other) people thought that Illusionists should
be able to see through illusions. They often have NPCs &amp; other races seeing
through illusions. If people are going to allow other NPCs to see through
illusions as a standard thing, then perhaps we should also allow
Illusionists to see through illusions.</pre>
</blockquote>

<div WRAP></div>

<div WRAP>I don't think anyone should be able to see through illusions
(except by methods that would also see through real objects.) I think DQ&nbsp;illusions
have a real, physical effect (although often only on light). You can't
see through an illusary wall because no light passes through it.</div>

<div WRAP></div>


<p WRAP>(Does an opaque illusion protect against a flash of light? On a
tangent, if an there is an invisible person on the far side of an invisible
door, can you see them with witchsight? Can an illusionist project an image
superimposed on themselves and be detected as illusary by other illusionists?
How dark is it inside an opaque illusion? If the illusion is rank 20, do
you get rank 20 darkness effect? (I think rank 19 darkness inside all illusions,
irrespective of rank.))
<div WRAP></div>


<p WRAP>Notice that a 'see through illusions' ability can increase, as
well as decrease, the power of illusionists - e.g. an illusionist can hide
inside an illusion and cast out of it, if they can see through it. Previously
they would have had to stick their head out. This advantage becomes very
much greater if they can allow others to see through it also.
<div WRAP></div>


<p WRAP>Michael W.
<div WRAP></div>&nbsp;

<br>&nbsp;</html>



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Subject: RE: Seeing through Illusion
From: "Andrew Withy (DSL AK)" <AndrewW@datacom.co.nz>
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The position and thought process listed by Michael W below is roughly what I
thought when I wrote the Illusion College. All well and good until people
come through with different underlying assumptions. When they say "any
magical creature can see through illusions - they are not real" or "but this
is a creature of mana" or "all demons & undead ignore illusions", that's how
it is in their game. In those games illusionists should be able to see
through illusions, because lots of other people can (if illusionists can see
illusions although no-one else can, it becomes a shared dementia rather than
a college). In games run under guidelines similar to those below, it is a
lot less intuitive to expect to see through illusions.
 
Anyway, without getting into an "I play illusions this way because they are
stupid" discussion, do we need this ability for PCs? I think it rests on two
game balance points and one meta-game point:
1a) How often do NPCs ignore illusions (all the time, some of the time, only
the powerful, very rarely, never)
1b) Do PCs *need* to be able to emulate common NPC abilities without needing
to get "warped" by a friendly GM?
2) Will seeing through illusions make the game more fun to play and/or
easier to GM?
 
Comments? I know that my party had opinions last week...
 
<And on a player note, if you are worried about your Unseen being weakened,
try having your entire college "witchsighted" away>
Andrew

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Woodhams [mailto:michael.woodhams@peace.com]
Sent: Tuesday, 24 October 2000 4:47 p.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: Seeing through Illusion


"Andrew Withy (DSL AK)" wrote: 

At DQ last week a number of (other) people thought that Illusionists should

be able to see through illusions. They often have NPCs & other races seeing

through illusions. If people are going to allow other NPCs to see through

illusions as a standard thing, then perhaps we should also allow

Illusionists to see through illusions.

I don't think anyone should be able to see through illusions (except by
methods that would also see through real objects.) I think DQ illusions have
a real, physical effect (although often only on light). You can't see
through an illusary wall because no light passes through it.

(Does an opaque illusion protect against a flash of light? On a tangent, if
an there is an invisible person on the far side of an invisible door, can
you see them with witchsight? Can an illusionist project an image
superimposed on themselves and be detected as illusary by other
illusionists? How dark is it inside an opaque illusion? If the illusion is
rank 20, do you get rank 20 darkness effect? (I think rank 19 darkness
inside all illusions, irrespective of rank.)) 


Notice that a 'see through illusions' ability can increase, as well as
decrease, the power of illusionists - e.g. an illusionist can hide inside an
illusion and cast out of it, if they can see through it. Previously they
would have had to stick their head out. This advantage becomes very much
greater if they can allow others to see through it also. 


Michael W. 

  
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<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=133385003-24102000>The 
position and thought process listed by Michael W below is roughly what I thought 
when I wrote the Illusion College. All well and good until people come through 
with different underlying assumptions. When they say "any magical creature can 
see through illusions - they are not real" or "but this is a creature of mana" 
or "all demons &amp; undead ignore illusions", that's how it is in their game. 
In those games illusionists should be able to see through illusions, because 
lots of other people can&nbsp;(if illusionists can see illusions although no-one 
else can, it becomes a shared dementia rather than a college). In games run 
under guidelines similar to those below, it is a lot less intuitive to expect to 
see through illusions.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
class=133385003-24102000></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
class=133385003-24102000>Anyway, without getting into an "I play illusions this 
way because they are stupid" discussion, do we need this ability for PCs? I 
think it rests on two game balance points and one meta-game 
point:</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=133385003-24102000>1a) 
How often do NPCs ignore illusions (all the time, some of the time, only the 
powerful, very rarely, never)</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=133385003-24102000>1b) Do 
PCs *need* to be able to emulate common NPC abilities without needing to get 
"warped" by a friendly GM?</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=133385003-24102000>2) 
Will seeing through illusions make the game more fun to play and/or easier to 
GM?</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
class=133385003-24102000></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
class=133385003-24102000>Comments? I know that my party had opinions last 
week...</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
class=133385003-24102000></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
class=133385003-24102000>&lt;And on a player note, if you are worried about your 
Unseen being weakened, try having your entire college "witchsighted" 
away&gt;</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
class=133385003-24102000>Andrew</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
  <DIV align=left class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr><FONT face=Tahoma 
  size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Michael Woodhams 
  [mailto:michael.woodhams@peace.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, 24 October 2000 
  4:47 p.m.<BR><B>To:</B> dq@dq.sf.org.nz<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: Seeing through 
  Illusion<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>"Andrew Withy (DSL AK)" wrote: 
  <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE="CITE"><PRE WRAP>At DQ last week a number of (other) people thought that Illusionists should
be able to see through illusions. They often have NPCs &amp; other races seeing
through illusions. If people are going to allow other NPCs to see through
illusions as a standard thing, then perhaps we should also allow
Illusionists to see through illusions.</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE>
  <DIV WRAP></DIV>
  <DIV WRAP>I don't think anyone should be able to see through illusions (except 
  by methods that would also see through real objects.) I think 
  DQ&nbsp;illusions have a real, physical effect (although often only on light). 
  You can't see through an illusary wall because no light passes through 
  it.</DIV>
  <DIV WRAP></DIV>
  <P WRAP>(Does an opaque illusion protect against a flash of light? On a 
  tangent, if an there is an invisible person on the far side of an invisible 
  door, can you see them with witchsight? Can an illusionist project an image 
  superimposed on themselves and be detected as illusary by other illusionists? 
  How dark is it inside an opaque illusion? If the illusion is rank 20, do you 
  get rank 20 darkness effect? (I think rank 19 darkness inside all illusions, 
  irrespective of rank.)) 
  <DIV WRAP></DIV>
  <P WRAP>Notice that a 'see through illusions' ability can increase, as well as 
  decrease, the power of illusionists - e.g. an illusionist can hide inside an 
  illusion and cast out of it, if they can see through it. Previously they would 
  have had to stick their head out. This advantage becomes very much greater if 
  they can allow others to see through it also. 
  <DIV WRAP></DIV>
  <P WRAP>Michael W. 
  <DIV WRAP></DIV>&nbsp; <BR>&nbsp; -- to unsubscribe see 
  http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html --</BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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Subject: Re: Seeing through Illusion
From: Michael Woodhams <michael.woodhams@peace.com>
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Reply-To: michael.woodhams@peace.com

> "Andrew Withy (DSL AK)" wrote:
>
> The position and thought process listed by Michael W below is roughly what I thought when I wrote the Illusion College. All well and good until people come through with different underlying assumptions.

I think first, try to get a clarification through the Gods that our (Andrew's and my) position is correct. If this fails (or if discussion on this group makes it clear that such an attempt would be doomed), then obviously our position is incorrect. This would be the time to start looking at codifying the see-through-illusions abilities.

>      I don't think anyone should be able to see through illusions (except by methods that would also see through real objects.) I think DQ illusions have a real, physical effect (although often only on light). You can't see through an illusary wall because no light passes through it.

Note that this doesn't prevent bizzare creatures from ignoring illusions because they have completely different senses, such as N-ray vision, automatic detection of all auras within 30' (an ability of Ward Daemons?), omniscience, etc.

Michael W.





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Subject: Re: Witchsight
From: Jim Arona <jimarona@ihug.co.nz>
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Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz



"Andrew Withy (DSL AK)" wrote:
> 
> Intellectually, I agree with most of Jim's points on the new Witchsight, but
> then when I see the effects in action in the game, I wonder why it doesn't
> feel "right". It could be just a matter of getting used to the changes. I
> would be interested in hearing from more people to get an idea of who is
> finding the new Witchsight difficult to adjust to or fundamentally flawed,
> and who is finding it better.
> 
> Jim - the reason that I didn't put forward concrete or structured argument
> for my position is because I am trying to air a nagging doubt and see if
> others have the same or similar doubts, rather than declaiming an
> unchangable opinion.

Then, basically, you're wasting time. I DO think
it works well. Prior to the change, there was no
reason to rank Walking Unseen beyond 7. And,
Witchsight went to about 14 or so and stopped.
Yet, these are abilities that advance as high as
20. There was no game pressure to advance them.
Therefore, they weren't advanced.
This change means that there is a positive game
pressure to advance the spells and the talents to
20. That's one bonus.
The other one, and probably the most important
one, is that it is now relatively easy to not only
determine who can see what, but to be able to
predict it. Prior to this, the rank of the
concealment spell had no impact on the rank of the
ability used to detect it. 
Now, they do, with a resultant pressure to develop
both. I like that.
I also like knowing that an NPC will be detected
by the character in the party who has chosen to
become special by having really good ranks in
Witchsight...
In large part, DQ suffered from, and, going by
some of these posts, still suffering from
catastrophic counter syndrome, where the effect is
incredibly powerful, until a condition is achieved
where it is completely invalidated. The fact that
it was a dice roll, meant that a character like
Silverfoam might not detect the invisible thing,
whereas, a one adventure E&E mage might. The
incidence in which it might happen is so rare that
it might make a good story, but given the amount
of characters being played, and the amount of dice
rolling required, such things will happen too
frequently. 
Perhaps it would be best if I recapitulated how I
interpret their workings.

1) If you have Witchsight then you can detect the
presence of something in a general area concealed
by Invis, Walking Unseen or Blending, if it is
making itself obvious to you. Which means that if
someone is attempting to sneak past, then the
Witchsighted individual may not notice the
concealed individual(s).
2) If the rank of the concealment spell is higher
than the rank of the Witchsight, then the
concealed individual(s) may not identified,
although they may be noticed. Which is to say that
if your rank in Witchsight isn't good enough, but
the concealed individual(s) blow the stealth roll,
then you might know that there's something
concealed in the area.
   This means that an invisible burning torch
might be detected as being invisible, if someone
is looking for it, but otherwise, will probably
not be noticed, unless it's dark, or they're close
enough to feel the heat, or downwind of it, etc.
And, so on. 

I don't see that it's hard to understand, unless
you combine it with the idea of the 'blue glow',
which meant that you were either concealed by a
spell, or using Stealth, but not both. Which makes
little sense. Being concealed still has value, but
it means that the guards at every city gate don't
have to be covered with high ranked witchsight
spells. Consider the ecology of the magical world
in which we live.



> Andrew
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jim Arona [mailto:jimarona@ihug.co.nz]
> Sent: Friday, 20 October 2000 9:34 p.m.
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: Witchsight
> 
> "Andrew Withy (DSL AK)" wrote:
> >
> > I was thinking of a slightly more open discussion.
> > 1) Does the current Witchsight solution work?
> 
> Yes.
> 
> > 2) What problems does it have?
> 
> DMs and players are not used to it.
> 
> > 3) Does it achieve the goals it set out to achieve?
> 
> Yes
> 
> > 4) Are these goals still relevant?
> 
> Yes
> 
> > 5) Did the old version "work" better?
> 
> No, it stunk.
> 
> > And only after all of that, (6) are there any alternatives that we haven't
> > trialed/considered that might work better?
> 
> Who knows. Are you offering one? Or just saying
> that we should get rid of the current solution,
> because that way we might attract a better one?
> 
> > My thoughts are:
> > 1) ish, but not well at all levels
> 
> If it's a thought that you have, I'd be interested
> in you expressing in what way it works 'ish'. I,
> sadly, am not gifted enough to penetrate the
> workings of your mind.
> 
> > 2) (a) the all there / blue glow / nothing there trinary state is
> confusing
> > to many (this may lessen with time)
> 
> Who knows. You haven't actually stated that it is
> a problem.
> Without knowing what you're talking about, I don't
> see how it's any different to the intensely binary
> state of every player, and every NPC has to roll
> to determine whether or not they can see the
> Invis, and every entity gifted or cursed with the
> ability then has to keep track of who can see
> what.
> I can see how it's a great deal better
> 
> >    (b) it devalues walking unseen on low to medium games (where some
> people
> > have some witchsight, but it wasn't automatic)
> 
> Walking Unseen and Blending were incredibly
> powerful effects, at low, med or high levels, and
> they meant that there was no reason to rank them
> beyond 7 or so. Then, it was  a matter of
> increasing your Rank in  Witchsight to the point
> that you could see 99% of unseen, blended or
> invisible things. Which, is pretty bloody boring.
> By the way, if you're a Celestial, the Witchsight
> Spell went to 10, and stopped there.
> 
> >    (c) the "I can see something but I can't target it" is only a
> functional
> > distinction in combat - its otherwise obvious to all with Rank 0
> witchsight
> > that a rank 20 invis person is going by,
> 
> No, it's not. It means that a person with Rank 20
> Unseen or Invis might be able to sneak past anyone
> with lower than Rank 20 Witchsight. It is not
> completely obvious. If it is being played that
> way, then people are mistaking what was intended.
> 
> >    (d) it creates confusion in parties where people can't target each
> other
> > because the invis's are too high
> 
>         Well, you can always cast Invis or Unseen lower
> than the player's Rank in Witchsight. If people
> choose NOT to do that, then that's there problem.
> It's not a problem with design. It's a problem
> with common sense.
> 
> -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html --
> 
> -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html --


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Subject: RE: DQ Rules 2000
From: "Jason Saggers" <psyclone@darknight.gen.nz>
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Can I get a copy.  Ether Email or I will give you a disk tommorrow night

Jason
  -----Original Message-----
  From: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
Rosemary_Mansfield/AJNzl/NZ@AJ.CO.NZ
  Sent: Tuesday, 24 October 2000 11:24
  To: dq-announce@dq.sf.org.nz
  Subject: DQ Rules 2000



  Hi,
  I've finally got around to sorting the PDF of the Rules published at the
June Guild Meeting.

  If you would like a copy, let me know & I will email it to you (it's just
under 1 Mb).

  As per various Gods discussions we will NOT be publishing this document on
any web site (or tell people how they can get it on the web sites) so for a
copy you need to contact me or Keith Smith, or Ross Alexander.

  Sorry for the delay,
  Rosemary

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">


<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4134.600" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D930334618-24102000><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Can I=20
get a copy.&nbsp; Ether Email or I will give you a disk tommorrow=20
night</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D930334618-24102000><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D930334618-24102000><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2>Jason</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
  size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> =
owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz=20
  [mailto:owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz]<B>On Behalf Of=20
  </B>Rosemary_Mansfield/AJNzl/NZ@AJ.CO.NZ<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, 24 =
October=20
  2000 11:24<BR><B>To:</B> dq-announce@dq.sf.org.nz<BR><B>Subject:</B> =
DQ Rules=20
  2000<BR><BR></FONT></DIV><BR><FONT face=3Dsans-serif =
size=3D3>Hi,</FONT> <BR><FONT=20
  face=3Dsans-serif size=3D3>I've finally got around to sorting the PDF =
of the Rules=20
  published at the June Guild Meeting.</FONT> <BR><BR><FONT =
face=3Dsans-serif=20
  size=3D3>If you would like a copy, let me know &amp; I will email it =
to you=20
  (it's just under 1 Mb).</FONT> <BR><BR><FONT face=3Dsans-serif =
size=3D3>As per=20
  various Gods discussions we will NOT be publishing this document on =
any web=20
  site (or tell people how they can get it on the web sites) so for a =
copy you=20
  need to contact me or Keith Smith, or Ross Alexander.</FONT> =
<BR><BR><FONT=20
  face=3Dsans-serif size=3D3>Sorry for the delay,</FONT> <BR><FONT =
face=3Dsans-serif=20
  size=3D3>Rosemary</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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Subject: RE: Seeing through Illusion
From: "Michael Parkinson" <m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz>
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
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Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz

Dear Michael W. & all,

> I don't think anyone should be able to see through illusions (except by
> methods that would also see through real objects.) I think DQ illusions
> have a real, physical effect (although often only on light). You
> can't see
> through an illusary wall because no light passes through it.

Don't argue from this point -- either you are using a false analogy (e.g.
real objects are counterspelled) or defining what an Illusion "actually"
is, idiosyncratically, & then using that definition to bolster your
reasoning which produced the definition in the first place.

Argue from the view point of what we, as players (including GMs) want.  I
would prefer it, for the game, if the illusions could see through illusions
that they had "detected" -- preferably with some sort of requirement
concerning ranks -- but not automatically or using some method involving
dice-rolling.

E.g., say Illusionist has an "Ill-sight" spell that permitted them to
see/sense through any illusion (as if it was a ghost) of lesser rank IF the
illusion knows its an illusion; automatically sees through illusion of
1/3rd Rank or less.
NB: it's a vague idea only, I do expect to be corrected by those who
understand the college -- & I do hope that *someone* out there does
understand the college; I'm sure I don't.
Frankly, I would like the suggested spell to have a slight barb (a la the
spell "Rune of Truth") -- e.g., cannot perceive/unaffected by illusion
magic of less that 1/3rd rank of Ill-sight (a *mostly* beneficial aspect).

> (Does an opaque illusion protect against a flash of light?

Michael P.

Michael Parkinson
Mathematics & Statistics Subject Librarian
Science Library, University of Auckland,
Private Bag 92019, AUCKLAND, N.Z.
Email: m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz
Phone: (09) 3737 599 x 5858  Fax:   (09) 3082 304
-------------------------------------------------
He [Fermat] enjoyed challenges himself, and naively took
it for granted that his correspondents did too.
-- Simmons, "Calculus Gems" (1992)
======================================



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From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz  Wed Oct 25 13:30:32 2000
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Subject: RE: Seeing through Illusion
From: "Andrew Withy (DSL AK)" <AndrewW@datacom.co.nz>
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This idea of Michael Parkinson's is the sort of idea I was thinking of
(details to be debated later if relevant). The question is, would it make
our game better? Michael Parkinson thinks so, I think so, does anyone else
care?

NB: getting 99% detect illusion is even easier than doing this with
witchsight (possible at rank 7-8) - reasons to rank this talent would be
good.

Andrew

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Parkinson [mailto:m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz]

I would prefer it, for the game, if the illusions could see through
illusions
that they had "detected" -- preferably with some sort of requirement
concerning ranks -- but not automatically or using some method involving
dice-rolling.

E.g., say Illusionist has an "Ill-sight" spell that permitted them to
see/sense through any illusion (as if it was a ghost) of lesser rank IF the
illusion knows its an illusion; automatically sees through illusion of
1/3rd Rank or less.
NB: it's a vague idea only, I do expect to be corrected by those who
understand the college -- & I do hope that *someone* out there does
understand the college; I'm sure I don't.
Frankly, I would like the suggested spell to have a slight barb (a la the
spell "Rune of Truth") -- e.g., cannot perceive/unaffected by illusion
magic of less that 1/3rd rank of Ill-sight (a *mostly* beneficial aspect).

Michael P.

-------------------------------------------------
He [Michael Parkinson] enjoyed challenges himself, and took
it for granted that his correspondents did too.
======================================


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From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz  Wed Oct 25 13:59:39 2000
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Subject: RE: Seeing through Illusion
From: Sally Jackson <salient@kccs.co.nz>
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Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz

It seems to me as a step towards to the "original" flavour of illusions of
DQ, where they could be disbelieved by anyone.  (It has taken quite a few
years to stop the habit of wanting to disbelieve anything abnormal.)  

I think this sort of spell would be a good compromise, between the original
weakness of having anyone disbelieve an illusion, and their current
strength of being "real".  It adds an element of tension to using
illusions, where it its no longer a dead cert than one can get away with them.

Besides, (assuming the spell is self only), it gives a reason for taking an
illusionist in the party :) 

For campaign consistency, I believe it is better to have an actual ability,
such as this propsed spell, than having GMs make up appropriate abilities
for the NPCs from nowhere.

Regards,
Sally

At 13:22 25/10/00 +1300, Andrew wrote:
>This idea of Michael Parkinson's is the sort of idea I was thinking of
>(details to be debated later if relevant). The question is, would it make
>our game better? Michael Parkinson thinks so, I think so, does anyone else
>care?
>
>NB: getting 99% detect illusion is even easier than doing this with
>witchsight (possible at rank 7-8) - reasons to rank this talent would be
>good.
>
>Andrew
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Michael Parkinson [mailto:m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz]
>
>I would prefer it, for the game, if the illusions could see through
>illusions
>that they had "detected" -- preferably with some sort of requirement
>concerning ranks -- but not automatically or using some method involving
>dice-rolling.
>
>E.g., say Illusionist has an "Ill-sight" spell that permitted them to
>see/sense through any illusion (as if it was a ghost) of lesser rank IF the
>illusion knows its an illusion; automatically sees through illusion of
>1/3rd Rank or less.
>NB: it's a vague idea only, I do expect to be corrected by those who
>understand the college -- & I do hope that *someone* out there does
>understand the college; I'm sure I don't.
>Frankly, I would like the suggested spell to have a slight barb (a la the
>spell "Rune of Truth") -- e.g., cannot perceive/unaffected by illusion
>magic of less that 1/3rd rank of Ill-sight (a *mostly* beneficial aspect).
>
>Michael P.



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Subject: RE: Seeing through Illusion
From: Jacqui Smith <flamis@ihug.co.nz>
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Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz

At 13:22 25/10/00 +1300, you wrote:
>NB: getting 99% detect illusion is even easier than doing this with
>witchsight (possible at rank 7-8) - reasons to rank this talent would be
>good.

If you're talking about Enhanced Vision, be warned that this talent is 
definitely flavour of the season for PCs to acquire. Keith was running a 
party last session where four out of six had some species of Enhanced 
Vision, and only one was an Illusionist...

Jacqui





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Subject: Re: Seeing through Illusion
From: Rosemary_Mansfield/AJNzl/NZ@AJ.CO.NZ
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1) I like the idea of being able to see through illusions.  Illusionist 
players are supposed to be thinking up cool ways to use their college and 
illusions being opaque is was the first limit to this I found.

2) I haven't met any GM's doing much weird stuff about seeing through 
illusions.  The GMs I've seen interacting with illusions have mostly had 
illusionist so are working by the same stuff they had to figure out for 
their character. 

An aside ...
One other thing I have noticed is that players and GMs haven't quite 
sorted that illusions are a 'mana thing' and have all the apparent 
properties of a real thing except those specified in the spell.  (so an 
animal looks, feels & smells like the real thing but a wall looks like a 
wall but is not solid).

Currently Illusionists can detect illusions but not identify what they are 
hiding (except for the few purely visual illusions which you can feel what 
is underneath).

An ability to see through illusions sounds like it should be part of the 
Enhanced Vision talent, which is used to either detect illusions or see 
invisible.  We could strip the 'see invisible' part and replace it with a 
rank based see thru illusions.  (And maybe add E&E Wizards sight to SK).

Or if we don't want the ability to be a talent then Andrew's idea of a SK 
spell sounds ok.  It should probably be self only.

Rosemary

PS.  This note of Jacqui implies that a) GM's don't think detecting 
illusions is tough, and b) players are really keen to get it.
If you're talking about Enhanced Vision, be warned that this talent is 
definitely flavour of the season for PCs to acquire. Keith was running a 
party last session where four out of six had some species of Enhanced 
Vision, and only one was an Illusionist...

Jacqui



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<br><font size=3 face="sans-serif">1) I like the idea of being able to see through illusions. &nbsp;Illusionist players are supposed to be thinking up cool ways to use their college and illusions being opaque is was the first limit to this I found.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3 face="sans-serif">2) I haven't met any GM's doing much weird stuff about seeing through illusions. &nbsp;The GMs I've seen interacting with illusions have mostly had &nbsp;illusionist so are working by the same stuff they had to figure out for their character. &nbsp;</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3 face="sans-serif">An aside ...</font>
<br><font size=3 face="sans-serif">One other thing I have noticed is that players and GMs haven't quite sorted that illusions are a 'mana thing' and have all the apparent properties of a real thing except those specified in the spell. &nbsp;(so an animal looks, feels &amp; smells like the real thing but a wall looks like a wall but is not solid).</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3 face="sans-serif">Currently Illusionists can detect illusions but not identify what they are hiding (except for the few purely visual illusions which you can feel what is underneath).</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3 face="sans-serif">An ability to see through illusions sounds like it should be part of the Enhanced Vision talent, which is used to either detect illusions or see invisible. &nbsp;We could strip the 'see invisible' part and replace it with a rank based see thru illusions. &nbsp;(And maybe add E&amp;E Wizards sight to SK).</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3 face="sans-serif">Or if we don't want the ability to be a talent then Andrew's idea of a SK spell sounds ok. &nbsp;It should probably be self only.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3 face="sans-serif">Rosemary</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3 face="sans-serif">PS. &nbsp;This note of Jacqui implies that a) GM's don't think detecting illusions is tough, and b) players are really keen to get it.</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">If you're talking about Enhanced Vision, be warned that this talent is <br>
definitely flavour of the season for PCs to acquire. Keith was running a <br>
party last session where four out of six had some species of Enhanced <br>
Vision, and only one was an Illusionist...<br>
<br>
Jacqui<br>
</font>
<br>
<br>
--=_alternative 006B7838CC256983_=--


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Subject: Re: Seeing through Illusion
From: "Mark Simpson" <Mark_Simpson@westpactrust.co.nz>
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I'm still not convinced that we need anyone to have the ability to see
through Illusions. While an illusion is obviously a thing of magic,
nevertheless the visual/light aspect on an illusion is "real" in the same
way as the heat from a fire mages flames is real. Does knowing that a fire
mages flame is "mere magic" and therefore "not real" stop it from burning
you?

I think this whole debate stems  from a misunderstanding of what an
illusion is, which was compounded/created by the "old" college. As I
understand it IIlusions used to be far more flexible but could be
disbelived away - hence the implictation that what you were seeing was not
actually there but was all in your mind - your mind being mislead by this
magic stuff into thinking you see xyz in front of you. In contrast, as I
understand the "new" college, the sight illusions it creates are actually
really there at least insofar as interacting with light is concerned, in
other words they interact with light as if they were what they appear to be
(casting shadows etc. etc.). Effectively they are holograms for want of a
better term. Therefore, while you may be able to "switch them off" with
counterspells/ritual of dissipation, you should not be able to see through
them unless and until you do.

/\/\ark
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From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz  Thu Oct 26 15:09:43 2000
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Subject: Re: Seeing through Illusion
From: Jim Arona <jimarona@ihug.co.nz>
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Interesting point.
Completely irrelevant.
Read Michael Parkinson's post. The issue is not in
what way to rationalise the ability. It is in
determining whether or not it makes for a game.


Mark Simpson wrote:
> 
> I'm still not convinced that we need anyone to have the ability to see
> through Illusions. While an illusion is obviously a thing of magic,
> nevertheless the visual/light aspect on an illusion is "real" in the same
> way as the heat from a fire mages flames is real. Does knowing that a fire
> mages flame is "mere magic" and therefore "not real" stop it from burning
> you?
> 
> I think this whole debate stems  from a misunderstanding of what an
> illusion is, which was compounded/created by the "old" college. As I
> understand it IIlusions used to be far more flexible but could be
> disbelived away - hence the implictation that what you were seeing was not
> actually there but was all in your mind - your mind being mislead by this
> magic stuff into thinking you see xyz in front of you. In contrast, as I
> understand the "new" college, the sight illusions it creates are actually
> really there at least insofar as interacting with light is concerned, in
> other words they interact with light as if they were what they appear to be
> (casting shadows etc. etc.). Effectively they are holograms for want of a
> better term. Therefore, while you may be able to "switch them off" with
> counterspells/ritual of dissipation, you should not be able to see through
> them unless and until you do.
> 
> /\/\ark
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> The contents of this e-mail are confidential to Westpac Banking
> Corporation.  If you have received this communication by mistake,
> please advise the sender immediately and delete the message and
> any attachments.
> The views expressed in this e-mail are not necessarily the views of
> Westpac Banking Corporation.
> Westpac Banking Corporation is incorporated in New South Wales, Australia.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> 
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Subject: Gods meeting this Sunday
From: Keith Smith <phaeton@ihug.co.nz>
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There is to be a DQ Gods meeting at 1pm at Keith and Jacqui's place (38 
Tarata Crescent, Mangere Bridge).

Items on the Agenda:
	Witchsight & Invisibility
	Should the DQ list be moderated?
	Progress reports on Work in Progress
		- Mind College
		- Namer
		- Rune
		- Opposition rolling playtest
	Initiative/Quickness - have any proposals came out of the previous 
discussions.
	Any other business raised.

	Incidently, who is the current Chair and Second for these meetings?

	Please attend so we can get things back on track.

Keith
(phaeton@ihug.co.nz)



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Subject: RE: Gods meeting this Sunday
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------ =_NextPart_000_01C044D8.965D5E60
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hi Keith
slow progress on mind, but progress is continuing...

no progress on opposed rolling, but may workshop and run a sessin in december...

my opologies for sunday.

Ian

-----Original Message-----
From:	Keith Smith [SMTP:phaeton@ihug.co.nz]
Sent:	Thursday, November 02, 2000 12:42 PM
To:	dq-announce@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject:	Gods meeting this Sunday

There is to be a DQ Gods meeting at 1pm at Keith and Jacqui's place (38 
Tarata Crescent, Mangere Bridge).

Items on the Agenda:
	Witchsight & Invisibility
	Should the DQ list be moderated?
	Progress reports on Work in Progress
		- Mind College
		- Namer
		- Rune
		- Opposition rolling playtest
	Initiative/Quickness - have any proposals came out of the previous 
discussions.
	Any other business raised.

	Incidently, who is the current Chair and Second for these meetings?

	Please attend so we can get things back on track.

Keith
(phaeton@ihug.co.nz)



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Subject: RE: Gods meeting this Sunday
From: "Mandos Mitchinson" <mandos@nz.asiaonline.net>
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Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz

I am working on a proposal for Rune to fire through to Ross however it will
not be complete by Sunday.



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Subject: Re: Gods meeting this Sunday
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Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz

Keith Smith wrote:

> Items on the Agenda:
>                 - Namer

I will have a version 2 draft for the December meeting.


>         Please attend so we can get things back on track.

Please extend my apologies to the meeting -- I am still in Iowa.

Regards,
Martin


--

 _/_/  Peace Software New Zealand Ltd   Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com
_/     Martin Dickson                   Fax  : +64-9-373-0401
       Analyst                          Phone: +64-9-373-0400




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Subject: Witchsight v Invisibility - revisited
From: Keith Smith <phaeton@ihug.co.nz>
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Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz

Witchsight v Invisibility

There has been some discussion on the dq list a while ago on this subject 
that indicated that the new version of the rules caused invisibility to be 
depowered. Here is my analysis.

 From the Third Edition (published June 1988)

Witchsight Talent: "The Adept has the Base Chance of this Talent [PC + 
4/rank] of seeing objects and entities which are normally invisible or have 
been rendered invisible by magical means (i.e. Walking Unseen, Blending, 
Invisibility)" - p49

E&E Walking UnSeen: "Although the target is not invisible, it may be 
detected by using any magical means for detecting invisible entities" - p49

E&E Invisibility: "The target of this spell becomes invisible and may not 
be seen by non magical means" - p49

Celestial Blending Spell: "While remaining still, the target is not able to 
be seen by nonmagical means (i.e. as for invisibility)" - p69

Celestial Witchsight Spell: "The spell gives the target the ability to 
automatically see normally invisible entities or objects, or those that
have been rendered invisible by magic (e.g. Walking Unseen, Blending, E&E 
Invisibility etc). These entities or objects will be surrounded by a faint 
blue glow." - p70.

Celestial Walking Unseen: (cf E&E Walking Unseen)

Illusionist Enhance Vision Talent: "The Adept has a base chance of PC + 
5%/rank of seeing invisible as per the Witchsight Talent" - p53

Illusionist Invisibility Spell: (cf E&E Invisibility)

Mind Undetectability: "The target of the spell becomes undetectable (other 
than by touch). The target may be detected if an observing entity makes a 
1*PC roll. The target of the spell is effectively invisible (per E&E G8) 
but cannot be seen by Witchsight or any other magical means." - p58

Earth Blending: (cf Celestial Blending)

Earth Walking Unseen: (cf E&E Walking Unseen)

Wiccan Witchsight Talent: "The Adept has a Base Chance equal to their PC + 
(5/Rank) of seeing objects which are normally invisible or which have been 
rendered invisible by magical means." - p108

Wiccan Walking Unseen: (cf E&E Walking Unseen)

Elven Witchsight Racial Talent: (cf Wiccan Witchsight)


It was felt that these had problems for the following reasons:
1) If an entire party was invisible, then there was a lot of die rolling 
required to determine who could see who. The more people involved the worse 
it got, turning into a potential logistical nightmare for the GM. It also 
could cause chaos in the party as they could lose touch with each other.
2) It was possible for a Rank 0 Talent to reveal the presence of a Rank 20 
invisibility spell. This severely depowered invisibility in the game.


So, in the September 1999 minutes, the following proposal was submitted and 
passed. "Base Chance: Automatic. Effect: The Adept may see objects or 
entities which are invisible. They appear to have a slight blue sheen 
around them. If the invisibility effect (excluding Walking Unseen) is of a 
higher rank than the Witchsight, the object or entity may not be clearly 
identified or directly magically targeted".
Also the E&E Witchsight had a name change to "Wizard Sight" and Wiccan 
Witchsight now includes entities as well as objects.

This led to the following changes in the Fourth Revision (printed June 2000)

E&E Wizardsight - "Base Chance: Perception + 4%/Rank. Effects: The Adept 
may see objects or entities that are invisible - they appear to have a 
slight blue sheen around them. If the invisibility effect (excluding 
Walking Unseen) is of a higher rank than the Wizardsight, the object or 
entity may not be clearly identified or directly magically targeted."

Celestial Witchsight Spell - "The Adept may see objects or entities which 
are invisible and they appear to have a slight blue sheen around them. If 
the invisibility effect (excluding Walking Unseen) is of a higher rank than 
the Witchsight, the object or entity may not be clearly identified or 
directly magically targetted.

Illusionist Enhanced Vision (cf Celestial Witchsight).

Wiccan Witchsight (cf Celestial Witchsight).


These changes turns witchsight v invisibility into a Rank versus Rank 
system which eliminates the need for die rolling, except (maybe) in the 
case of Wizardsight. However, it also has the following consequences:

1) When the Rank of the Witchsight is less than the invisibility, it is 
still possible to determine that something is there and the rough location. 
Therefore, area effect spells such as Agony, Dragonflames, or Smoking Magma 
can still be used against them.

2) It is implied from the description that high rank Walking Unseens can be 
directly seen with Wizardsight or Witchsight.

3) Now that Witchsight automatically sees invisible objects, it makes high 
ranked invisibilities even less useful than they are now.

4) Does the Wizardsight Basechance refer to the chance or activating the 
talent or to the chance or seeing something invisible?


Therefore I would like to propose the following changes:

1) Remove the blue sheen altogether and replace with something like a 
distortion effect.

2) Remove the exception stated for Walking Unseen and also have higher 
ranked invisibilities not being detected at all. This means that if the 
rank of the invisibility is less than or equal to the Witchsight, then they 
can be seen otherwise they can't. This should make higher ranked 
invisibilities more valuable and give PCs incentive to rank the spell.


It should be pointed out, that if the invisible entity is trying to conceal 
themselves or use stealth to try and sneak past guards with witchsight then 
the normal stealth and perception rules apply.

Unless otherwise stated, anything naturally invisible should have a default 
Rank of 10. Bardic Ears and Wizard Eyes have the Rank of the spell that 
created them.

Keith
(phaeton@ihug.co.nz)


  



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Subject: Re: Witchsight v Invisibility - revisited
From: Michael Woodhams <michael.woodhams@peace.com>
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Reply-To: michael.woodhams@peace.com

Keith Smith wrote:

> 2) Remove the exception stated for Walking Unseen and also have higher
> ranked invisibilities not being detected at all. This means that if the
> rank of the invisibility is less than or equal to the Witchsight, then they
> can be seen otherwise they can't. This should make higher ranked
> invisibilities more valuable and give PCs incentive to rank the spell.

A possible added complication: At the beginning of an encounter, all those with
witchsight get a roll that modifies their effective rank with witchsight - e.g.

1-5: + 3
6-15: +2
16-30: +1
31-70: normal
71-85: -1
86-95: -2
96-00: -3

This removes the all-or-nothing effect where the party has rank 11 witchsight
spell and the opponents rank 10 invis (invis useless) or rank 10 witchsight vs
rank 11 invis (witchsight useless) but requires only one roll per witchsighted
person. (It turns it into a lesser all-or-nothing where Alice gets to see all
the greeblies and Bob none, however.)

Michael W.




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Subject: RE: Witchsight v Invisibility - revisited
From: "Andrew Withy (DSL AK)" <AndrewW@datacom.co.nz>
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Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz

The exception for walking unseen is because it is a em100 spell available to
all sorts of scum, which is nearly as tough as the 450 em invis available
only to the elite & illusionists. Geting unseen to rank 20 costs ~ 10,500
(21,000 for MA15), then only rank 20 witchsights can spot you. Too tough,
too cheap.

The blue sheen & the distortion effect would have exactly the same game
result, surely? why change?

Andrew

PS: I don't think you mean the DQ 3rd Ed. - that has never been part of our
ruleset. The rules published in 1998 maybe?

-----Original Message-----
From: Keith Smith [mailto:phaeton@ihug.co.nz]

<snip>

 From the Third Edition (published June 1988)

<snip>

Therefore I would like to propose the following changes:

1) Remove the blue sheen altogether and replace with something like a 
distortion effect.

2) Remove the exception stated for Walking Unseen and also have higher 
ranked invisibilities not being detected at all. This means that if the 
rank of the invisibility is less than or equal to the Witchsight, then they 
can be seen otherwise they can't. This should make higher ranked 
invisibilities more valuable and give PCs incentive to rank the spell.

<snip>


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Subject: More stuff for the meeting agenda
From: Keith Smith <phaeton@ihug.co.nz>
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Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz

I've been going through my back e-mail and discovered the following topics 
that should be added to the agenda:
	Weight of potions
	Astrology skill - anyone want to take this on?
	Ranger recommendations.

Did anyone else propose anything to the e-mail list that hasn't made it to 
the formal agenda yet?

Keith
(phaeton@ihug.co.nz)



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Subject: RE: Gods meeting this Sunday
From: Phil JUDD <PJUDD@businessobjects.com>
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Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz

Fly back for the day :)

	Phil Judd
	Pre-Sales and Technical Support Consultant
	New Zealand

	Business Objects Australia Pty Ltd.
	
	Level 3
	60 Cook Street 
	Auckland City 1030
	New Zealand

	pjudd@businessobjects.com

	www.businessobjects.com

             New Zealand Office
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             Australia Office
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LCT2IP (Leadership, Customer Focus, Transnational Identity, Integrity,
Innovation and Passion)

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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Martin Dickson [mailto:martin.dickson@peace.com]
> Sent: 02 November, 2000 7:11 AM
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: Gods meeting this Sunday
> 
> 
> Keith Smith wrote:
> 
> > Items on the Agenda:
> >                 - Namer
> 
> I will have a version 2 draft for the December meeting.
> 
> 
> >         Please attend so we can get things back on track.
> 
> Please extend my apologies to the meeting -- I am still in Iowa.
> 
> Regards,
> Martin
> 
> 
> --
> 
>  _/_/  Peace Software New Zealand Ltd   Email: 
> Martin.Dickson@peace.com
> _/     Martin Dickson                   Fax  : +64-9-373-0401
>        Analyst                          Phone: +64-9-373-0400
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- to unsubscribe see 
> http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html --
> 


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Subject: Re: Gods meeting this Sunday / Ranger
From: Rosemary_Mansfield/AJNzl/NZ@AJ.CO.NZ
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I have been working on a new version of ranger putting Jacqui's ideas and 
some of my own thoughts into English.  It is not ready for presenting to 
the gods but I should be posting to the discussion group in the next 
couple of weeks.

In summary (new stuff marked with *)

Broke out benefits into 4 sections: 
Food*: added specific abilities to forage, trap, hunt etc
Shelter: setting camp*, building bivouacs etc
Travelling: Orientation ('north bump'), map reading, choosing routes*, 
distance estimates, stealth bonus in wilderness*
Safety: detect ambush, detect animal activity*, Hiding in cover*, First 
aid*

Environmental Knowledge (old specialisation)
        Effective rank when using ranger +2 ranks
two ideas for 'multiple specialisation'.
a) Starts with original environment at rank 0.  Can learn extra 
environments at 4, 8 & 10 for extra ep & time; or
b) Starts with original environment at rank 0.  Can only specialise in ONE 
environment at a time but may change environments for extra ep & time.

Environments: Rural, Wetlands, Plains, Woods, Jungle, Coastal, Highlands, 
Waste, Arctic, Caverns.
(I've thought about the possibility of some terrains being in more than 
one environment, eg. evergreen forests in mountains seem to belong in both 
Woods & Highlands).

I'd be interested in other peoples thoughts on this.

Rosemary
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Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"


<br><font size=3 face="sans-serif">I have been working on a new version of ranger putting Jacqui's ideas and some of my own thoughts into English. &nbsp;It is not ready for presenting to the gods but I should be posting to the discussion group in the next couple of weeks.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3 face="sans-serif">In summary (new stuff marked with *)</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3 face="sans-serif">Broke out benefits into 4 sections: </font>
<br><font size=3 face="sans-serif">Food*: added specific abilities to forage, trap, hunt etc</font>
<br><font size=3 face="sans-serif">Shelter: setting camp*, building bivouacs etc</font>
<br><font size=3 face="sans-serif">Travelling: Orientation ('north bump'), map reading, choosing routes*, distance estimates, stealth bonus in wilderness*</font>
<br><font size=3 face="sans-serif">Safety: detect ambush, detect animal activity*, Hiding in cover*, First aid*</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3 face="sans-serif">Environmental Knowledge (old specialisation)</font>
<br><font size=3 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Effective rank when using ranger +2 ranks</font>
<br><font size=3 face="sans-serif">two ideas for 'multiple specialisation'.</font>
<br><font size=3 face="sans-serif">a) Starts with original environment at rank 0. &nbsp;Can learn extra environments at 4, 8 &amp; 10 for extra ep &amp; time; or</font>
<br><font size=3 face="sans-serif">b) Starts with original environment at rank 0. &nbsp;Can only specialise in ONE environment at a time but may change environments for extra ep &amp; time.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3 face="sans-serif">Environments: Rural, Wetlands, Plains, Woods, Jungle, Coastal, Highlands, Waste, Arctic, Caverns.</font>
<br><font size=3 face="sans-serif">(I've thought about the possibility of some terrains being in more than one environment, eg. evergreen forests in mountains seem to belong in both Woods &amp; Highlands).</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3 face="sans-serif">I'd be interested in other peoples thoughts on this.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3 face="sans-serif">Rosemary</font>
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Subject: Re: Gods meeting this Sunday / Ranger
From: Martin Dickson <martin.dickson@peace.com>
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Rosemary_Mansfield/AJNzl/NZ@AJ.CO.NZ wrote:

> two ideas for 'multiple specialisation'.
> a) Starts with original environment at rank 0.  Can learn extra
> environments at 4, 8 & 10 for extra ep & time; or
> b) Starts with original environment at rank 0.  Can only specialise in
> ONE environment at a time but may change environments for extra ep &
> time.

Another fairly standard DQ way would be:
c) Starts with original environment at rank 0. Gains an additional
specialisation at ranks 4, 8, and 10.  Once the Ranger has become rank
10 can gain additional environments for extra ep & time.

> Environments: Rural, Wetlands, Plains, Woods, Jungle, Coastal,
> Highlands, Waste, Arctic, Caverns.
> (I've thought about the possibility of some terrains being in more
> than one environment, eg. evergreen forests in mountains seem to
> belong in both Woods & Highlands).

Is rural really an environment, or does it simply refer to cultivated
land, and country people?
Is "Desert" covered by "Waste" or does it deserve its own listing?  (I
think is does occur regularly enough)... Presumably "Waste" covers
scrub, tundra and that sort of thing.

Cheers,
Martin

--

 _/_/  Peace Software New Zealand Ltd   Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com
_/     Martin Dickson                   Fax  : +64-9-373-0401
       Analyst                          Phone: +64-9-373-0400




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From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz  Mon Nov  6 10:11:57 2000
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Subject: Witchsight v Invisibility - Mark 2
From: Keith Smith <phaeton@ihug.co.nz>
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It was pointed out to me that Invis has a much higher EM than Walking 
Unseen so it should be a harder nut to crack with Witchsight - which also 
explains the exception in the current writeup. With this in mind, here is 
my revised idea to get around witchsight seeing everything.

1) Against Walking Unseen/Blending. If the Rank of Witchsight is greater 
than or equal to the Rank in Walking Unseen, then the target can be seen 
with a slight blue sheen. If the Rank of Witchsight is less than the Rank 
in Walking Unseen then nothing is seen.

2) Against Invisibility. If the Rank of Witchsight is >= twice the rank of 
Invisibility then the target can be seen otherwise nothing is seen. This is 
modified by 1 for each point of perception above 15 (10 for the Celestial 
spell) that the viewer has. For example, someone with Rank 10 Witchsight 
can see up to and including Rank 5 Invisibility. But if they have a 
perception of 18 they can see up to Rank 8, if using a talent, and Rank 13 
if using the spell.

This should give motivation for ranking both the spell and perception. A 
similar perception modifier could be added to the Walking Unseen/Blending 
case but I felt it might make things too easy.

Comments?

Keith
(phaeton@ihug.co.nz)






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Subject: Results from the November Gods Meeting
From: Keith Smith <phaeton@ihug.co.nz>
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We didn't get a quorum so not much was done. However, many people have 
indicated that work is being progressed on various topices which should be 
ready by the December meeting. Therefore it is hoped that we should be able 
to get a quorum and a full agenda there.

Was anyone planning on working on Astrologer? The comments on the list 
seemed to indicate it seriously needs a real good going over but I'm not 
sure if anyone picked up on it.

A while ago, it was suggested that voting could be done on the e-mail list. 
At that time there wasn't a clear mechanism for this but, by using a 
moderated list it could be done. The proposed mechanism is as follows.

A new, moderated, list called dq-vote is set up. Anyone can post to it but 
all the posts are sent to the moderator, usually the current meeting chair 
or the secretary or both. There is no bounce back to anyone on the list. 
When a vote is called, the moderator posts a message to dq stating what is 
to be voted on. Anyone who wishes to vote has to reply to dq-vote with 
their vote. There must be enough separate votes, one per e-mail address, 
that number to the current quorum or more to make the vote count valid. 
Once voting is closed, usually a week after the initial post, then the 
votes are counted and the results posted back to dq. This means that all 
voting is secret ballots.

Comments? Is this feasable?

Keith
(phaeton@ihug.co.nz)



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Subject: RE: Witchsight v Invisibility - Mark 2
From: "Andrew Withy (DSL AK)" <AndrewW@datacom.co.nz>
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I think the numbers work out OK. Would suggest simplification.

Witchsight Talent or Spell
Can see unseen of up to (Rank + PC over 15).
Can see invis/blending of up to (Rank/2 + PC over 15).

These two ranks can be written on character sheet by witchsight talent, so
never need to calculate. Bit more of a pain with the spell.

Keith's suggestion gets rid of the intermediate stage of "something is out
there" which is annoying/confusing a number of people. It makes invis
tougher than unseen to spot. It makes both tougher to spot than old rules or
current rules, so high-ranked spells will be useful against town guard even
with witchsight spells on (need PC 15 to catch rank 10 invis/rank 20 unseen,
PC 21 to catch rank 16 invis, with Rank 20 witchsight). Invis is more widely
usable beyond low/medium.

Andrew
-----Original Message-----
From: Keith Smith [mailto:phaeton@ihug.co.nz]
Sent: Monday, 6 November 2000 10:00 a.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Witchsight v Invisibility - Mark 2


It was pointed out to me that Invis has a much higher EM than Walking 
Unseen so it should be a harder nut to crack with Witchsight - which also 
explains the exception in the current writeup. With this in mind, here is 
my revised idea to get around witchsight seeing everything.

1) Against Walking Unseen/Blending. If the Rank of Witchsight is greater 
than or equal to the Rank in Walking Unseen, then the target can be seen 
with a slight blue sheen. If the Rank of Witchsight is less than the Rank 
in Walking Unseen then nothing is seen.

2) Against Invisibility. If the Rank of Witchsight is >= twice the rank of 
Invisibility then the target can be seen otherwise nothing is seen. This is 
modified by 1 for each point of perception above 15 (10 for the Celestial 
spell) that the viewer has. For example, someone with Rank 10 Witchsight 
can see up to and including Rank 5 Invisibility. But if they have a 
perception of 18 they can see up to Rank 8, if using a talent, and Rank 13 
if using the spell.

This should give motivation for ranking both the spell and perception. A 
similar perception modifier could be added to the Walking Unseen/Blending 
case but I felt it might make things too easy.

Comments?

Keith
(phaeton@ihug.co.nz)






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From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz  Mon Nov  6 11:15:26 2000
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Subject: The evils of email voting - an unbiased report
From: "Andrew Withy (DSL AK)" <AndrewW@datacom.co.nz>
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Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz

Problems with e-voting:
(1) face to face discussion often explains things better than email, with
more explanation of what people don't understand, and more "This doesn't
feel right because of this - what do you reckon?", and less flaming.

(2) email voting encourages the "wrong" sort of voting. Those who don't care
to make an effort to come along to the gods but want to insert their 2-cents
worth can. I'm not a 1-person, 1-vote believer. Those who care, listen to
opinions & put effort in COUNT MORE than others IMO. 

(3) Those ignorant of the issues can vote. A vote can be stacked more
easily, less obviously.

(4) The "consensus" voting that is sometimes used: "7 for, 2 against - OK,
what about it don't you two like? Can we address that?" is lost.

(5) Those without email or who can not / will not get DQ lists on their
email accounts would be disenfranchised.

Advantages:
(1) You would (probably) get a wider range of people voting, which is more
democratic, representitive, etc. Warm fuzzies, inclusion, etc.

(2) Those who can't make it to the Gods meetings (Church, children, other
Sunday commitments) can vote.

I think that while we can muster up quorums when there are things to vote on
(and there haven't been things to vote on lately), we shouldn't transfer to
e-voting.

If we did go to email voting, I would want the vote to be public - no secret
ballots.

Andrew
-----Original Message-----

A while ago, it was suggested that voting could be done on the e-mail list. 
At that time there wasn't a clear mechanism for this but, by using a 
moderated list it could be done. The proposed mechanism is as follows.

A new, moderated, list called dq-vote is set up. Anyone can post to it but 
all the posts are sent to the moderator, usually the current meeting chair 
or the secretary or both. There is no bounce back to anyone on the list. 
When a vote is called, the moderator posts a message to dq stating what is 
to be voted on. Anyone who wishes to vote has to reply to dq-vote with 
their vote. There must be enough separate votes, one per e-mail address, 
that number to the current quorum or more to make the vote count valid. 
Once voting is closed, usually a week after the initial post, then the 
votes are counted and the results posted back to dq. This means that all 
voting is secret ballots.

Comments? Is this feasable?

Keith


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Subject: RE:Email Voting. 
From: "Mandos Mitchinson" <mandos@nz.asiaonline.net>
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Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz


> Problems with e-voting:
> (1) face to face discussion often explains things better than email, with
> more explanation of what people don't understand, and more "This doesn't
> feel right because of this - what do you reckon?", and less flaming.

I tend to think if people put in the effort to actually read posts and try
to see what people are saying  this would be less of a problem but until
people learn how to use the medium more effectivly this is an important
issue.

> (2) email voting encourages the "wrong" sort of voting. Those who
> don't care
> to make an effort to come along to the gods but want to insert
> their 2-cents
> worth can. I'm not a 1-person, 1-vote believer. Those who care, listen to
> opinions & put effort in COUNT MORE than others IMO.

Not nessecarily. It still takes effort to send the email, thiose who do not
care will not vote. Those who do go to the effort of voting must have a
reason even if it is simply to block change.

> (3) Those ignorant of the issues can vote. A vote can be stacked more
> easily, less obviously.

That has never stopped people voting at Gods meetings either :-)

> (4) The "consensus" voting that is sometimes used: "7 for, 2 against - OK,
> what about it don't you two like? Can we address that?" is lost.

Yes we can, while Keith recommended a secret ballot it is in effoect not one
as the email address is seen by those counting the vote. If the votes are
fully and publicly displayed with name and vote then healthy discussion can
begin. To assist in the fairness angle it would pay to have a majority that
must be acheved greater than 50% Ie around 70-75% mark.

> (5) Those without email or who can not / will not get DQ lists on their
> email accounts would be disenfranchised.

Those who do not go to the effort to get Email, is the same as those who do
not go to the effort to turn up. It is simply a restriction to a different
group. The advantages of the email over face to face is that the face to
face stuff is not getting enough people.


> Advantages:
> (1) You would (probably) get a wider range of people voting, which is more
> democratic, representitive, etc. Warm fuzzies, inclusion, etc.

An interesting point is do we restrict the voting in any way?

> (2) Those who can't make it to the Gods meetings (Church, children, other
> Sunday commitments) can vote.

As a busy person this is a major factor.

> I think that while we can muster up quorums when there are things
> to vote on (and there haven't been things to vote on lately), we shouldn't
> transfer to e-voting.

When was the last time a quorum was achieved? I would suggest that in recent
times the hit/miss ratio is less than 50% success.

> If we did go to email voting, I would want the vote to be public
> - no secret ballots.

Very definatly. I would like to see online voting even if it is just to
assist in judgeing the favour/disfavour various idea's have.

But secret Ballots are definatly a nono.

Mandos
/s



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From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz  Tue Nov 14 11:45:10 2000
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Subject: WARNING: Content is not DQ related and may offend some viewers )
From: Stephen Martin <stephenm@qed.co.nz>
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Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz

I'm afraid this is related to that awful thing that helps support our
habits... work!

The company I work for is looking for a couple of junior developers,
experience (University and Tech count) with 4GLs and Relational databases is
required, knowledge of Progress is ideal.
The role involves bug fixing, enhancements and support of existing
applications working with more senior developers.

Why should I care? What's in it for me? you ask... well I get paid a finders
fee if I find someone that we employ for the role.  So if you forward
someone to me that gets employed I will happily buy you a couple of bottles
of your favourite wine/spirit or whatever.

Also we are looking for a Systems Architect for a 2-3 month contract
starting at the end of November to oversee the design/development of a web
based application using microsoft tools/environment (SQL Server 7, ASP
pages, VB Script, Site Server, Commerce Server, etc).
Experience with this sort of development with these tools is required.

No finders fee/booze on this one I'm afraid (.

Cheers, Stephen.

6 weeks to christmas but more importantly... 4 Weeks to the next guild
meeting (10/4/2000).



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From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz  Tue Nov 14 12:29:23 2000
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Subject: RE: WARNING: Content is not DQ related and may offend some viewers ) - Apology.
From: "Mandos Mitchinson" <mandos@nz.asiaonline.net>
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My apologies for replying that last Email to the list. 

My Screwup.

Mandos
/s




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From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz  Tue Nov 14 12:35:38 2000
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Subject: RE: WARNING: Content is not DQ related and may offend some viewers )
From: "Mandos Mitchinson" <mandos@nz.asiaonline.net>
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> I'm afraid this is related to that awful thing that helps support our
> habits... work!
>
> The company I work for is looking for a couple of junior developers,
> experience (University and Tech count) with 4GLs and Relational
> databases is
> required, knowledge of Progress is ideal.
> The role involves bug fixing, enhancements and support of existing
> applications working with more senior developers.

I have a chap who is interested in finding out more about the above role.
His Email address is lawn@nz.asiaonline.net

Mandos
/s



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From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz  Wed Nov 15 10:37:30 2000
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Subject: Seagate
From: Keith Smith <phaeton@ihug.co.nz>
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Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz

I'd like to have at least one article in the upcoming Seagate Times 
describing the conditions in Seagate at the moment and would like some 
feedback or comments on the subject.

I presume we've still got a lot of refugees around the town from the Dark 
Circle and I was thinking that would cause an increase in the number of 
beggers around the place and also be an increase in petty crime 
(pickpocketing etc) as there isn't enough to go around - what with the 
embargo on grain based foods. A black market has probably already been 
started. It could even get as far as organised crime.

Comments please? There could be an adventure hook or two in this.

Keith
(phaeton@ihug.co.nz)



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From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz  Thu Nov 16 02:45:15 2000
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Subject: Re: The evils of email voting - an unbiased report
From: m_young@pop.ihug.co.nz
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Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz

Think Andrew got it right in the 1st half of his Subject Title.

It is evil, dont do it!

Regards,
Michael Young




> Problems with e-voting:
> (1) face to face discussion often explains things better than email, with
> more explanation of what people don't understand, and more "This doesn't
> feel right because of this - what do you reckon?", and less flaming.
> 
> (2) email voting encourages the "wrong" sort of voting. Those who don't care
> to make an effort to come along to the gods but want to insert their 2-cents
> worth can. I'm not a 1-person, 1-vote believer. Those who care, listen to
> opinions & put effort in COUNT MORE than others IMO. 
> 
> (3) Those ignorant of the issues can vote. A vote can be stacked more
> easily, less obviously.
> 
> (4) The "consensus" voting that is sometimes used: "7 for, 2 against - OK,
> what about it don't you two like? Can we address that?" is lost.
> 
> (5) Those without email or who can not / will not get DQ lists on their
> email accounts would be disenfranchised.
> 
> Advantages:
> (1) You would (probably) get a wider range of people voting, which is more
> democratic, representitive, etc. Warm fuzzies, inclusion, etc.
> 
> (2) Those who can't make it to the Gods meetings (Church, children, other
> Sunday commitments) can vote.
> 
> I think that while we can muster up quorums when there are things to vote on
> (and there haven't been things to vote on lately), we shouldn't transfer to
> e-voting.
> 
> If we did go to email voting, I would want the vote to be public - no secret
> ballots.
> 
> Andrew
> -----Original Message-----
> 
> A while ago, it was suggested that voting could be done on the e-mail list. 
> At that time there wasn't a clear mechanism for this but, by using a 
> moderated list it could be done. The proposed mechanism is as follows.
> 
> A new, moderated, list called dq-vote is set up. Anyone can post to it but 
> all the posts are sent to the moderator, usually the current meeting chair 
> or the secretary or both. There is no bounce back to anyone on the list. 
> When a vote is called, the moderator posts a message to dq stating what is 
> to be voted on. Anyone who wishes to vote has to reply to dq-vote with 
> their vote. There must be enough separate votes, one per e-mail address, 
> that number to the current quorum or more to make the vote count valid. 
> Once voting is closed, usually a week after the initial post, then the 
> votes are counted and the results posted back to dq. This means that all 
> voting is secret ballots.
> 
> Comments? Is this feasable?
> 
> Keith
> 
> 
> -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html --
> 




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Subject: Re: Seagate
From: m_young@pop.ihug.co.nz
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Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz

Go for it Keith



> I'd like to have at least one article in the upcoming Seagate Times 
> describing the conditions in Seagate at the moment and would like some 
> feedback or comments on the subject.
> 
> I presume we've still got a lot of refugees around the town from the Dark 
> Circle and I was thinking that would cause an increase in the number of 
> beggers around the place and also be an increase in petty crime 
> (pickpocketing etc) as there isn't enough to go around - what with the 
> embargo on grain based foods. A black market has probably already been 
> started. It could even get as far as organised crime.
> 
> Comments please? There could be an adventure hook or two in this.
> 
> Keith
> (phaeton@ihug.co.nz)
> 
> 
> 
> -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html --
> 




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Subject: DQ: Ranger v0.2
From: Rosemary_Mansfield/AJNzl/NZ@AJ.CO.NZ
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--0__=CC2569A00003AABE8f9e8a93df938690918cCC2569A00003AABE
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I finally got my ideas together. =A0Let me know what you think.

Rosemary

(See attached file: ranger-02.pdf)=

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From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz  Thu Nov 23 14:43:57 2000
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Subject: Re: DQ: Ranger v0.2
From: Martin Dickson <martin.dickson@peace.com>
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Hi Rosemary,

Thoughts/Comments:

45.1 Environment Options
Both options raise a question of how +1/+2 effective ranks is handled when
this raises the rank over 10.  As for the two options offered, I strongly
prefer "B".  I'm not sure if option "A" would really get used.  Given the
Guild structure it would be difficult to determine when ranking (at the end of
an adventure) what the most useful environment would be for the next session,
and the 4 or 8 week requirement would be too long to keep a party waiting for.

Default Base Chance need not be specified in the skill.  90+Rank applies to
all non-magical skills without a specific BC

Identify Plants and Animals
Perhaps add a comment that the BC may be reduced for uncommon or rare plants
and animals.

"(NB a ranger does not need to make an attack roll but may automatically kill
small animals that it has caught during foraging)." Should be either "that
they have caught", or perhaps, "that were caught during foraging".

Traps
The weight seems low, and perhaps unnecessary.  At what rank can the Ranger
dig and conceal their elephant pit?  :)  Or build a man-trap for that matter.

First Aid
The ability to stop bleeding may need an equivalent Healer rank if it is to be
used to stop a combatant bleeding to death.

Environments
Caverns
The "inhabited" caveat seems to imply that the ranger can use all of their
skills caves, for example, unless there are gobbos living in the caves.  Is
this intended?

Rural
I'll restate my objection to this as an environment... generally it is just
plains or valleys that people live in, and seems adequately covered by other
environments.  If fertility is the main concern it might be worth changing
Plains to be "Poor to Average" and noting that areas may be cultivated.

Overall
Very clear and easy to understand.  A little heavy on formulae for my tastes,
but I am aware that some GMs and players like having numbers to work with and
the rest of us will just tend to fudge it as we go along.  :)

Regards,
Martin

--

 _/_/  Peace Software New Zealand Ltd   Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com
_/     Martin Dickson                   Fax  : +64-9-373-0401
       Analyst                          Phone: +64-9-373-0400




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From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz  Thu Nov 23 15:34:22 2000
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Subject: RE: DQ: Ranger v0.2
From: "Andrew Withy (DSL AK)" <AndrewW@datacom.co.nz>
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Thoughts on "rural" specialisation in reply to Martin.

Put your average british poacher in the veldt, pampas or prairie. They don't
have a chance. However, they can live off the land happily in their area of
specialisation - where animals are mainly domesticated, lands are broken in,
etc, they can live "wild".

You could argue this just makes them incompetant rangers, but some live
their entire life in this way, and know lots & lots of trick of survival in
this environment.

There are a number of guild members who fill the same ecological niche as
the poacher, and this category is a sensible one given how often this
environment turns up in games. Stealthing through farmyards after chickens
has got to be distinct from & more common (in DQ) than stealthing through
African grasslands after antelope.

Agriculture changes the nature of the land, its inhabitants and dangers.

Andrew

-----Original Message-----
From: Martin Dickson

Environments

Rural
I'll restate my objection to this as an environment... generally it is just
plains or valleys that people live in, and seems adequately covered by other
environments.  If fertility is the main concern it might be worth changing
Plains to be "Poor to Average" and noting that areas may be cultivated.


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Subject: Re: DQ: Ranger v0.2
From: Martin Dickson <martin.dickson@peace.com>
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<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
"Andrew Withy (DSL AK)" wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>
<pre>Put your average british poacher in the veldt, pampas or prairie. They don't
have a chance. However, they can live off the land happily in their area of
specialisation - where animals are mainly domesticated, lands are broken in,
etc, they can live "wild".

You could argue this just makes them incompetant rangers, but some live
their entire life in this way, and know lots &amp; lots of trick of survival in
this environment.</pre>
</blockquote>

<p><br>Hi Andrew,
<p>I guess what I'm really looking for is consistency.
<p>There have been arguments (both for and against) in past about Rangers
specializing in "City", or using their skills in an urban environment.&nbsp;
In Rosemary's proposed version the Caverns environment states that tunnels
that are part of an inhabited area are not included for purposes of Rangering.
<p>Rural is what it is because of continued habitation.&nbsp; So, basically,
does Ranger cover inhabited areas or no?
<p>Cheers,
<br>Martin
<p>PS:&nbsp; "Stealthing through farmyards after chickens" is not technically
Rangering... its Thievery.&nbsp; :)
<p>--
<p>&nbsp;_/_/&nbsp; Peace Software New Zealand Ltd&nbsp;&nbsp; Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com
<br>_/&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Martin Dickson&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
Fax&nbsp; : +64-9-373-0401
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Analyst&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
Phone: +64-9-373-0400
<br>&nbsp;</html>



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Subject: RE: DQ: Ranger v0.2
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this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

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I'd like to refund my hobbit's ranks in Ranger then - It's all been a big
misunderstanding.
 
Andrew

-----Original Message-----
From: Martin Dickson [mailto:martin.dickson@peace.com]
PS:  "Stealthing through farmyards after chickens" is not technically
Rangering... its Thievery.  :) 

 


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Content-Type: text/html

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<META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=us-ascii">


<META content="MSHTML 5.00.3103.1000" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=677205803-23112000>I'd 
like to refund my hobbit's ranks in Ranger then - It's all been a big 
misunderstanding.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
class=677205803-23112000></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
class=677205803-23112000>Andrew</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV align=left class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr><FONT face=Tahoma 
  size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Martin Dickson 
  [mailto:martin.dickson@peace.com]<BR></FONT>PS:&nbsp; "Stealthing through 
  farmyards after chickens" is not technically Rangering... its Thievery.&nbsp; 
  :) </DIV>
  <P>&nbsp;</P></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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Subject: Re: DQ: Ranger v0.2
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Thanks for your feedback Martin.

Overall
Very clear and easy to understand.  A little heavy on formulae for my 
tastes,
but I am aware that some GMs and players like having numbers to work with 
and
the rest of us will just tend to fudge it as we go along.  :)
Ha, you should have seen all the formulas I took out !
But seriously, I would be quite comfortable with fewer numbers and more 
description, but when playing people just don't interpret things the 
obvious way (ie my way).  I looked at the Bestiary with a view to using 
generic terms eg. small land animals, but that document is too, hmmm, 
stuffed is too strong, lets try too far from common sense, to be useful. 


45.1 Environment Options
Both options raise a question of how +1/+2 effective ranks is handled when
this raises the rank over 10. 
I was thinking in terms of rangers going up to a 'nominal' rank 12, but it 
might be better changed to something more like "... in this environment 
their base chances and other formulas should be calculated as if they were 
2 ranks higher."
As for the two options offered, I strongly
prefer "B".  I'm not sure if option "A" would really get used.  Given the
Guild structure it would be difficult to determine when ranking (at the 
end of
an adventure) what the most useful environment would be for the next 
session,
and the 4 or 8 week requirement would be too long to keep a party waiting 
for.

I actually dislike the idea of people changing environment to suit their 
next adventure, or basing any of their ranking on the next scenario they 
are going on.  A bit of it goes on; it feels more real to make ranking 
choices based on when the character was planning, ie at the end of the 
last adventure, not based on events or needs months down the track. 

Option A doesn't stop a ranger working in any environment, they are just a 
bit better in the one they are most familiar with.

Option B was what I came up with 1st, but as I thought it through I 
decided that my ideal of a ranger wasn't a like a mage or philosopher who 
learns formally and is adding to their knowledge but someone whose skills 
come from familiarity and long use.

Default Base Chance need not be specified in the skill.  90+Rank applies 
to
all non-magical skills without a specific BC
I stuck this in for the same reason I stuck it in Healer.  There are 
abilities that don't quote a base chance and this just reminds people that 
nothing is automatic unless it says so. 

Identify Plants and Animals
Perhaps add a comment that the BC may be reduced for uncommon or rare 
plants
and animals.
OK

"(NB a ranger does not need to make an attack roll but may automatically 
kill
small animals that it has caught during foraging)." Should be either "that
they have caught", or perhaps, "that were caught during foraging".
Thanks 

Traps
The weight seems low, and perhaps unnecessary.  At what rank can the 
Ranger
dig and conceal their elephant pit?  :)  Or build a man-trap for that 
matter.
This section was designed as supplement to foraging and I was thinking 
firmly of the string & bent branch type of thing.  Now those just don't 
hold anything with longish legs or any strength.
If we want to expand this to pit traps, nets flipping into trees, rock 
falls and other fun and games then this whole bit needs re-writing (and 
probably doesn't belong in the food section any more).  Any suggestions?

First Aid
The ability to stop bleeding may need an equivalent Healer rank if it is 
to be
used to stop a combatant bleeding to death.
Oops, this should be 'stop external bleeding'.    This whole bit is 
supposed to be 'first aid' not pseudo magical healing.

Environments
Caverns
The "inhabited" caveat seems to imply that the ranger can use all of their
skills caves, for example, unless there are gobbos living in the caves. Is
this intended?
I didn't change this from the original and I think 'inhabited' is meant to 
refer to 'other underground areas' not the cavern's caves bit. I'll have a 
think about this and reword it.

Rural
I'll reply to this separately


Regards,
Martin


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<br><font size=3 face="sans-serif">Thanks for your feedback Martin.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">Overall<br>
Very clear and easy to understand. &nbsp;A little heavy on formulae for my tastes,<br>
but I am aware that some GMs and players like having numbers to work with and<br>
the rest of us will just tend to fudge it as we go along. &nbsp;:)</font>
<br><font size=3 face="sans-serif">Ha, you should have seen all the formulas I took out !</font>
<br><font size=3 face="sans-serif">But seriously, I would be quite comfortable with fewer numbers and more description, but when playing people just don't interpret things the obvious way (ie my way). &nbsp;I looked at the Bestiary with a view to using generic terms eg. small land animals, but that document is too, hmmm, stuffed is too strong, lets try too far from common sense, to be useful. &nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New"><br>
<br>
45.1 Environment Options<br>
Both options raise a question of how +1/+2 effective ranks is handled when<br>
this raises the rank over 10. &nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=3 face="sans-serif">I was thinking in terms of rangers going up to a 'nominal' rank 12, but it might be better changed to something more like &quot;... in this environment their base chances and other formulas should be calculated as if they were 2 ranks higher.&quot;</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">As for the two options offered, I strongly<br>
prefer &quot;B&quot;. &nbsp;I'm not sure if option &quot;A&quot; would really get used. &nbsp;Given the<br>
Guild structure it would be difficult to determine when ranking (at the end of<br>
an adventure) what the most useful environment would be for the next session,<br>
and the 4 or 8 week requirement would be too long to keep a party waiting for.<br>
</font>
<br><font size=3 face="sans-serif">I actually dislike the idea of people changing environment to suit their next adventure, or basing any of their ranking on the next scenario they are going on. &nbsp;A bit of it goes on; it feels more real to make ranking choices based on when the character was planning, ie at the end of the last adventure, not based on events or needs months down the track. </font>
<br>
<br><font size=3 face="sans-serif">Option A doesn't stop a ranger working in any environment, they are just a bit better in the one they are most familiar with.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3 face="sans-serif">Option B was what I came up with 1st, but as I thought it through I decided that my ideal of a ranger wasn't a like a mage or philosopher who learns formally and is adding to their knowledge but someone whose skills come from familiarity and long use</font><font size=2 face="Courier New">.<br>
</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">Default Base Chance need not be specified in the skill. &nbsp;90+Rank applies to<br>
all non-magical skills without a specific BC<br>
</font><font size=3 face="sans-serif">I stuck this in for the same reason I stuck it in Healer. &nbsp;There are abilities that don't quote a base chance and this just reminds people that nothing is automatic unless it says so. </font><font size=2 face="Courier New"><br>
</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">Identify Plants and Animals<br>
Perhaps add a comment that the BC may be reduced for uncommon or rare plants<br>
and animals.<br>
</font><font size=3 face="sans-serif">OK</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">&quot;(NB a ranger does not need to make an attack roll but may automatically kill<br>
small animals that it has caught during foraging).&quot; Should be either &quot;that<br>
they have caught&quot;, or perhaps, &quot;that were caught during foraging&quot;.<br>
</font><font size=3 face="sans-serif">Thanks </font><font size=2 face="Courier New"><br>
</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">Traps<br>
The weight seems low, and perhaps unnecessary. &nbsp;At what rank can the Ranger<br>
dig and conceal their elephant pit? &nbsp;:) &nbsp;Or build a man-trap for that matter.<br>
</font><font size=3 face="sans-serif">This section was designed as supplement to foraging and I was thinking firmly of the string &amp; bent branch type of thing. &nbsp;Now those just don't hold anything with longish legs or any strength.</font>
<br><font size=3 face="sans-serif">If we want to expand this to pit traps, nets flipping into trees, rock falls and other fun and games then this whole bit needs re-writing (and probably doesn't belong in the food section any more). &nbsp;Any suggestions?</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New"><br>
First Aid<br>
The ability to stop bleeding may need an equivalent Healer rank if it is to be<br>
used to stop a combatant bleeding to death.<br>
</font><font size=3 face="sans-serif">Oops, this should be 'stop external bleeding'. &nbsp; &nbsp;This whole bit is supposed to be 'first aid' not pseudo magical healing.</font><font size=2 face="Courier New"><br>
</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">Environments<br>
Caverns<br>
The &quot;inhabited&quot; caveat seems to imply that the ranger can use all of their<br>
skills caves, for example, unless there are gobbos living in the caves. &nbsp;Is<br>
this intended?<br>
</font><font size=3 face="sans-serif">I didn't change this from the original and I think 'inhabited' is meant to refer to 'other underground areas' not the cavern's caves bit. I'll have a think about this and reword it.</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New"><br>
Rural<br>
</font><font size=3 face="sans-serif">I'll reply to this separately</font><font size=2 face="Courier New"><br>
<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Martin<br>
</font>
<br>
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Subject: Ranger specialisation
From: "Michael Parkinson" <m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz>
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Dear Rosemary & all,

Thanks for the restructuring of Ranger.  However I would disagree with both
the options for Ranger "specialisation."  I do think that rangers should
only specialise in *one* environment, but I don't think it has to be the
one that they trained in; and I would prefer that the ranger must have a
few ranks before they specialise  (btw, I hope this does not appear
unfairly critical of Rosemary's which definitely improves flaws in the
original).

In the old version a ranger could do the same things in ALL environments --
they were just a little bit BETTER at doing everything [actually "any
ability," not explicitly restricted to ranger abilities, but that seems to
be the general interpretation] in one particular area than they were in all
others.   Like a healer getting +2% per rank for a particular species, or
gender, etc.   This is a quite different thing from building-block skills
such as Troubadour or military scientist (to name two comparable skills --
or their compromise, Courtier, etc).

There is no *need* for a ranger to specialise, but I think it is a good
flavour thing.  Although I strongly dislike the idea of multiple
specialisations.

However I do NOT think that the specialisation *must* be where one was
first taught.   I see nothing wrong with a ranger spending their early life
with mediocre chances of doing various tasks & then coming upon a
particular environment for which they are simpatico --in which they
flourish, as it were -- even if they had never seen it before.   (As an
aside, this was possible under the old rules).


NB: there is no need to *totally* divide the world into Ranger flavours.
It doesn't matter if there are some vanilla areas.

awaiting your responses,  Michael



Michael Parkinson
Mathematics & Statistics Subject Librarian
Science Library, University of Auckland,
Private Bag 92019, AUCKLAND, N.Z.
Email: m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz
Phone: (09) 3737 599 x 5858  Fax:   (09) 3082 304
-------------------------------------------------
He [Fermat] enjoyed challenges himself, and naively took
it for granted that his correspondents did too.
-- Simmons, "Calculus Gems" (1992)
======================================



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Subject: RE: DQ: Ranger v0.2
From: "Michael Parkinson" <m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz>
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The ranger document is good because it is aimed at what we want Rangers to
be able to do.

I esp like the stealth & food section.  I generally concur with Martin's
comments to which Rosemary replied "O.K." or similarly.   I see nothing
wrong with the weight limit for animals -- perhaps even reduce it -- but
would suggest that we explicitly state it is a snare.  You may like to give
a ranger a separate chance (or a bonus) at concealing pits or other large
trap, or (my slight preference) just treat it as a special case of "hiding."

I am quite content with the environments as given --particularly rural, as
it happens-- but have not particularly scrutinised them.   Concerning M &
R's other comments:

  Option B was what I came up with 1st, but as I thought it through I
decided that my ideal of a ranger wasn't a like a mage or philosopher who
learns formally and is adding to their knowledge but someone whose skills
come from familiarity and long use.
Yes.  Although an improved base chance does not necessarily represent
familiarity or habit.  It also (or even instead) may indicate an environment
that the Ranger is more "in tune" with.

Michael

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
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<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dwindows-1252">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4134.600" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D115482203-24112000>
<P>The ranger document is good because it is aimed at what we want =
Rangers to be=20
able to do.</P>
<P>I esp like the stealth &amp; food section<SPAN=20
class=3D115482203-24112000>.&nbsp; I generally concur with Martin's =
comments to=20
which Rosemary replied "O.K." or similarly.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;I</SPAN> =
see=20
nothing wrong with the weight limit for animals --&nbsp;<SPAN=20
class=3D115482203-24112000>perhaps even reduce it --&nbsp;</SPAN>but =
would suggest=20
that we explicitly state it is a snare.&nbsp;<SPAN =
class=3D115482203-24112000>=20
</SPAN>You may like to give a ranger a separate chance (or a bonus) at=20
concealing pits or other large trap, or<SPAN class=3D115482203-24112000> =
(my=20
slight preference)</SPAN>&nbsp;just treat it as a special case of =
"hiding<SPAN=20
class=3D115482203-24112000>.</SPAN>"<SPAN =
class=3D115482203-24112000>&nbsp;=20
</SPAN></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D115482203-24112000>I am quite content with the =
environments as=20
given --particularly rural, as it happens--&nbsp;but have not =
particularly=20
scrutinised them.&nbsp; &nbsp;Concerning M &amp; R's other=20
comments:</SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px =
solid"><FONT=20
  size=3D2>
  <DIV><BR><FONT face=3Dsans-serif>Option B was what I came up with 1st, =
but as I=20
  thought it through I decided that my ideal of a ranger wasn't a like a =
mage or=20
  philosopher who learns formally and is adding to their knowledge but =
someone=20
  whose skills come from familiarity and long use</FONT></FONT><FONT=20
  size=3D2><FONT face=3D"Courier New">.<SPAN =
class=3D115482203-24112000><FONT=20
  face=3D"Times New Roman"=20
size=3D3>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><FONT=20
face=3D"Courier New">
<DIV><SPAN class=3D115482203-24112000><FONT face=3D"Times New =
Roman">Yes.&nbsp;=20
Although an improved base chance does not necessarily represent =
familiarity or=20
habit.&nbsp; It also (or even instead) may indicate an environment that =
the=20
Ranger is more "in tune" with.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D115482203-24112000><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman"></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV></FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"><SPAN=20
class=3D115482203-24112000>Michael</SPAN></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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Subject: DQ: Rangers and Stealth
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No this is exactly what DOESN'T happen.  Rangers get a bonus to stealth 
ONLY when using the abilities from the ranger skill and that bonus 
applies, not any bonus from any other skill they might happen to have.

Rosemary
The other thing I noticed in the weekend was the new stealth paragraph 
where the Ranger gets a bonus of 3/rank. not stackable with other skill 
bonuses. So what happens if the character is also a thief or spy?

I presume the stealth formula would now read BC = 3*AG + 5*Rank + 
MAX(3*Ranger, (Thief + 2*Spy + 2*Assassin))

Keith
(phaeton@ihug.co.nz)

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<br><font size=3 face="sans-serif">No this is exactly what DOESN'T happen. &nbsp;Rangers get a bonus to stealth ONLY when using the abilities from the ranger skill and that bonus applies, not any bonus from any other skill they might happen to have.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3 face="sans-serif">Rosemary</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">The other thing I noticed in the weekend was the new stealth paragraph <br>
where the Ranger gets a bonus of 3/rank. not stackable with other skill <br>
bonuses. So what happens if the character is also a thief or spy?<br>
<br>
I presume the stealth formula would now read BC = 3*AG + 5*Rank + <br>
MAX(3*Ranger, (Thief + 2*Spy + 2*Assassin))<br>
<br>
Keith<br>
(phaeton@ihug.co.nz)</font>
<br>
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Subject: Sunday -- yes/no?
From: "Michael Parkinson" <m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz>
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Are we having a meeting  this Sunday?

-- I haven't seen an agenda & I need to know ASAP if I'm free this week-end
regards, Michael



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Subject: RE: Sunday -- yes/no?
From: Stephen Martin <stephenm@qed.co.nz>
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I recommend that we have this meeting with the primary object of catching up
on campaign events, planning future events and world changes, and organising
adventures.
If there are any rules issues that are ready for voting then these should be
placed on the agenda, if you don't have agreement from 2 or 3 other GMs that
your proposal/change is ready for voting don't put it forward yet.  
Often we have rules changes put up for voting just to progress them or raise
awareness - please don't do this as it wastes everyone's time.  There are
better ways to do this.  Put them up for voting when you are sure the
majority of GMs agree with you and the issue will pass.
[Rant ends...]

Key campaign issue: Dark Circle, we need to decide what direction this
should take.  The campaign story line should progress or come to a close
(either as a permanent feature of the landscape or it is overcome).

Real world: this is our last guild meeting that is booked at Leicester Hall,
I assume that we want to continue using it but I would like confirmation of
that from the guild meeting before I fork out $240 for another 4 meetings.

Adventures: I'm not planning on running one, but I hope someone else is ).
Though this session I possibly could if we are short.

On a personal note I wont be able to make this guild meeting [sob, sniff] so
I'll deputise someone to open the building and handle that side of things.

Michael, I assume from your email that you are offering your place as the
venue for this weeks gods meeting, lets us know if this is not the case.
Otherwise the meeting is at Michael's in Grafton at noon on Sunday.

Cheers, Stephen.

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Michael Parkinson [SMTP:m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz]
> Sent:	Tuesday, 28 November 2000 11:14
> To:	dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject:	Sunday -- yes/no?
> 
> Are we having a meeting  this Sunday?
> 
> -- I haven't seen an agenda & I need to know ASAP if I'm free this
> week-end
> regards, Michael
> 
> 
> 
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Subject: Re: [dq] Sunday -- yes/no?
From: "Michael Parkinson" <m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz>
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> Michael, I assume from your email that you are offering your place as the
> venue for this weeks gods meeting, lets us know if this is not the case.
> Otherwise the meeting is at Michael's in Grafton at noon on Sunday.

I wasn't *explicitly* offering it -- but I was assuming that's where people
would turn up.  MP



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Subject: Re: [dq] Sunday -- yes/no?
From: Keith Smith <phaeton@ihug.co.nz>
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>I recommend that we have this meeting with the primary object of catching up
>on campaign events, planning future events and world changes, and organising
>adventures.

Agreed.

>Key campaign issue: Dark Circle, we need to decide what direction this
>should take.  The campaign story line should progress or come to a close
>(either as a permanent feature of the landscape or it is overcome).

Isn't there still some loose ends from the Guild Fire as well? Guild scrip? 
Missing councellors? etc... Also, what's the situation in Seagate? With all 
those refugees about I bet crime is on the increase. Beggar mobs anyone? 
Organised crime syndicates moving in to control the black market etc?

>Real world: this is our last guild meeting that is booked at Leicester Hall,
>I assume that we want to continue using it but I would like confirmation of
>that from the guild meeting before I fork out $240 for another 4 meetings.
>
>Adventures: I'm not planning on running one, but I hope someone else is ).
>Though this session I possibly could if we are short.

I'm thinking of one medium/high, not confirmed yet - just needs some 
planning and I'm prepared to run a low level overflow if required.

>On a personal note I wont be able to make this guild meeting [sob, sniff] so
>I'll deputise someone to open the building and handle that side of things.
>
>Michael, I assume from your email that you are offering your place as the
>venue for this weeks gods meeting, lets us know if this is not the case.
>Otherwise the meeting is at Michael's in Grafton at noon on Sunday.

If Michael's place suddenly becomes unavailable, the meeting can be held 
here (38 Tarata Crescent, Mangere Bridge). Unfortunately I can't attend so 
could someone else take the minutes please?

On another note, please start getting your items together for the Seagate 
Times. We'll want a world update, especially on the Dark Circle and the 
Spawn this session.

Keith
(phaeton@ihug.co.nz)



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Subject: [dq-pub] DQ: Wanted: Good, competent adventurers
From: Michael Woodhams <michael.woodhams@peace.com>
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Reply-To: michael.woodhams@peace.com

In the coming season, I hope to hunt down the half-demon known as Cain.
He has proved elusive to two previous parties, so I am attempting to
organize a party in advance of the guild meeting, to ensure that we have
a suitable mix of competent people.

About Cain:
His mother was a greater summoner/shapechanger wolf named Mardia, who
was executed shortly after his birth. His father is a demon king,
although he appears to be aligned with Asmoday (who was also his
mother's master.) He was born about two years ago, but has grown at
about 12 times normal speed, so is now adult. His powers are growing
rapidly.

Cain is an Enchanter. He has additional abilities of shapechanging into
a wolf or a bull and of magical flight, and when severely wounded he
turns into a black mist, which is difficult to detect in darkness. He
has invisibility at at least rank 16, quickness, slowness with enough
targets to cover a normal party. When last encountered, he had five imps
of various colleges and an army of trolls and orcs. The actions of the
last party may have denied him the trolls. Some imps were destroyed, but
are likely replaced by now.

He brutally and ritually murdered a child in a church, and has made war
on nomads and settled peoples with his orc/troll army.

I am seeking medium or higher level adventurers with a good mix of
skills. As Cain has Charmed adventurers in the past, people who are
sworn enemies of demons are prefered. Some preference will also be given
to those with reason to hold a grudge against Cain and with local
knowledge/contacts in the Duchy of Valar.

Already confirmed are:
Myself (Anathea, witch): restoratives, instill flight, local knowledge
and contacts, particularly with the Western Church, soon to be ordained
to Raphael.
Ithlemore (Star celestial): Pacted to a power of good, witchsight spell,
wings, some blast magics.

Desired are:
A namer, ranked in counterspells, especially E&E.
An Enchanter, with Quickness, Slowness, Locate. Wizard Eye might well be
useful. (Sasha?)
An Earth mage with Strength of Stone well ranked and a cast iron
stomach. (Guideon?)

Anyone else of medium+ level with useful skills, especially those with
anti-demon items/abilities/pacts.

---- Anathea.

(OOC: GM will be Andrew Withy. I expect location will be his place. Day,
I don't know. I will first select anyone who obviously fits the
requirements, then consult with this group about who else would work in
well. Feel free to distribute this to guild people without e-mail and
relay expresions of interest from them. Depending on response, there may
be places left to be filled at the guild meeting.)




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Subject: Re: [dq] DQ: Ranger v0.2
From: "Mandos Mitchinson" <mandos@nz.asiaonline.net>
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Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz


I guess what I'm really looking for is consistency.
There have been arguments (both for and against) in past about Rangers
specializing in "City", or using their skills in an urban environment.  In
Rosemary's proposed version the Caverns environment states that tunnels that
are part of an inhabited area are not included for purposes of Rangering.
Rural is what it is because of continued habitation.  So, basically, does
Ranger cover inhabited areas or no?


-------

I would have though that Urban rangering was covered under either theif,
courtesan, and merchant depending on the level of society you mix with. I
feel ranger is definatly an out of town skillset.

Mandos
/s



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Subject: Re: [dq] DQ: Ranger v0.2
From: Rosemary_Mansfield/AJNzl/NZ@AJ.CO.NZ
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This is a multipart message in MIME format.
--=_alternative 0072EBD9CC2569A5_=
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I think I need to re-write caverns.
What I would like to see is that Ranger covers lightly inhabited areas, eg 
farmland, moors, but doesn't cover urban areas (villages, cities, 
whatever).

So you cave system with some goblins in residence is covered but not the 
dwarven city.  I'd be dubious about sentient built tunnels unless long 
deserted.  Actually I'm dubious about caverns being an environment a 
ranger could survive in  - but then adventurers spend more time than most 
underground : )  Any one for mushrooms ?

Rosemary


I guess what I'm really looking for is consistency.
There have been arguments (both for and against) in past about Rangers
specializing in "City", or using their skills in an urban environment.  In
Rosemary's proposed version the Caverns environment states that tunnels 
that
are part of an inhabited area are not included for purposes of Rangering.
Rural is what it is because of continued habitation.  So, basically, does
Ranger cover inhabited areas or no?


I would have though that Urban rangering was covered under either thief,
courtesan, and merchant depending on the level of society you mix with. I
feel ranger is definitely an out of town skill set.

Mandos
/s


--=_alternative 0072EBD9CC2569A5_=
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"


<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">I think I need to re-write caverns.</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">What I would like to see is that Ranger covers lightly inhabited areas, eg farmland, moors, but doesn't cover urban areas (villages, cities, whatever).</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">So you cave system with some goblins in residence is covered but not the dwarven city. &nbsp;I'd be dubious about sentient built tunnels unless long deserted. &nbsp;Actually I'm dubious about caverns being an environment a ranger could survive in &nbsp;- but then adventurers spend more time than most underground : ) &nbsp;Any one for mushrooms ?</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Rosemary</font>
<br>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">I guess what I'm really looking for is consistency.<br>
There have been arguments (both for and against) in past about Rangers<br>
specializing in &quot;City&quot;, or using their skills in an urban environment. &nbsp;In<br>
Rosemary's proposed version the Caverns environment states that tunnels that<br>
are part of an inhabited area are not included for purposes of Rangering.<br>
Rural is what it is because of continued habitation. &nbsp;So, basically, does<br>
Ranger cover inhabited areas or no?<br>
<br>
<br>
I would have though that Urban rangering was covered under either thief,<br>
courtesan, and merchant depending on the level of society you mix with. I<br>
feel ranger is definitely an out of town skill set.<br>
<br>
Mandos<br>
/s</font>
<br>
<br>
--=_alternative 0072EBD9CC2569A5_=--


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Subject: Re: [dq] DQ: Ranger v0.2
From: Martin Dickson <martin.dickson@peace.com>
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Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz

Rosemary_Mansfield/AJNzl/NZ@AJ.CO.NZ wrote:

> What I would like to see is that Ranger covers lightly inhabited
> areas, eg farmland, moors, but doesn't cover urban areas (villages,
> cities, whatever).

Hi Rosemary,

This looks like a desired flavour/genre kind of thing that may just need
some explanatory writing... it looks to me like we want the normal
Ranger to be the archtypical "mountain man", a la Tarzan, Hawkeye,
Crocodile Dundee... completely at home in the jungle/woodlands/outback
and perhaps dealing with people living in native
villages/hamlets/outback pubs but lost in the "big smoke".

I think its just a matter of where you draw the line... I guess for me
hamlets and villages are OK (and are rural), but once you're talking
towns and cities (urban), you're outside the purvey of Ranger.

> So you cave system with some goblins in residence is covered but not
> the dwarven city.

Again this is a "wilderness/rual" vs. "city" distinction and seems fair
enough, in-line with the desired flavour.

> I'd be dubious about sentient built tunnels unless long deserted.

I'd just go for deserted/virtually deserted myself.  I think a Ranger
would be fine in a big city if everyone vanished... ahh... maybe you're
right... I guess once the jungle/whatever had started to claim the ruins
it'd fit the Ranger flavour.

> Actually I'm dubious about caverns being an environment a ranger could
> survive in  - but then adventurers spend more time than most
> underground : )  Any one for mushrooms ?

And in a fantasy world there tend to more subterranian races than in our
own.  Presumably Dwarven Rangers (in Dwarf society) serve the same sort
of purpose as in human society... not at home in the heavily
populated/civilized areas but rather involved in scouting into attached
natural caverns/tunnels lost generations ago to the goblinoids, taking
part in goblin culls in the underground "badlands", guiding caravans
between underground Dwarven cities, etc.

Cheers,
Martin

--

 _/_/  Peace Software New Zealand Ltd   Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com
_/     Martin Dickson                   Fax  : +64-9-373-0401
       Analyst                          Phone: +64-9-373-0400




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Subject: Re: [dq] DQ: Ranger v0.2
From: Keith Smith <phaeton@ihug.co.nz>
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>I think I need to re-write caverns.
>What I would like to see is that Ranger covers lightly inhabited areas, eg 
>farmland, moors, but doesn't cover urban areas (villages, cities, whatever).

Makes sense to me.

>So you cave system with some goblins in residence is covered but not the 
>dwarven city.  I'd be dubious about sentient built tunnels unless long 
>deserted.  Actually I'm dubious about caverns being an environment a 
>ranger could survive in  - but then adventurers spend more time than most 
>underground : )  Any one for mushrooms ?

Mushrooms, other fungi, bats, cave fish, insects etc.

Besides,  isn't that what dwarven iron rations are for. MRE's anyone? ;-)

Keith
(phaeton@ihug.co.nz)



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Subject: Re: [dq] DQ: Ranger v0.2
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Keith Smith wrote:

> Mushrooms, other fungi, bats, cave fish, insects etc.
>
> Besides,  isn't that what dwarven iron rations are for.

If you believe Terry Pratchett, the purpose of Dwarven Waybread is to make bats,
cave fish, and insects look like an appetizing alternative.

--

 _/_/  Peace Software New Zealand Ltd   Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com
_/     Martin Dickson                   Fax  : +64-9-373-0401
       Analyst                          Phone: +64-9-373-0400




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Subject: [dq-announce] Max Douglas - GNA
From: Martin Kealey <martin.kealey@peace.com>
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Max's address points at echelonnz.co.nz, which doesn't exist any more.
Does anyone have a newer address for him?

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Subject: Re: [dq] DQ: Ranger v0.2
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As another aside I think the arctic seasons should be day/night rather than
regular.

Just a small point.

Mandos
/s



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Subject: [dq] guild tax
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Reply-To: clare@cs.auckland.ac.nz

What is the current guild tax rate?

clare


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Subject: [dq-announce] New draft of Namer College available
From: Martin Dickson <martin.dickson@peace.com>
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Hi All,

The 2.02 draft of Namer is (finally) available at my DragonQuest Vault
site:

http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~apollyon/dq_index.html

Thank you all for the feedback you provided on the previous draft,  the
major changes in this revision are listed at the bottom of the College,
the rest of the mods were wording changes for grammar and clarity, etc.

There is still one small section to fix -- the language benefit for
Namers -- although with the changes to the Language skill and the
dropping of similar benefits for Philosophers, it may be more
appropriate to lose the benefit altogether.  What do other people think?

Also available is a slightly altered draft of the Counterspells
document.  Neither True Names nor Auras has yet been altered.

Cheers,
Martin

--

 _/_/  Peace Software New Zealand Ltd   Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com
_/     Martin Dickson                   Fax  : +64-9-373-0401
       Analyst                          Phone: +64-9-373-0400




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Subject: Re: [dq] New draft of Namer College available
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Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz


>There is still one small section to fix -- the language benefit for
>Namers -- although with the changes to the Language skill and the
>dropping of similar benefits for Philosophers, it may be more
>appropriate to lose the benefit altogether.  What do other people think?

When the new Language document came out the following was added to 
Namer.  'The familiarity with Names allows Namers to Rank any Language in 
the Protonic Language Group as if they know a language in that group at 
Rank 5'.

May as well stick with that.

Keith
(phaeton@ihug.co.nz)



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Subject: Re: [dq] New draft of Namer College available
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Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz

Thanks Keith,

That looks fine.  I will amend section 1.2 Benefits to read:

"Due to their knowledge of True Names, Namers may Rank any Language in the
Protonic Language Group as if they already know another language in that
group at Rank 5.  (See Languages xx.xx)".

Cheers,
Martin

--

 _/_/  Peace Software New Zealand Ltd   Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com
_/     Martin Dickson                   Fax  : +64-9-373-0401
       Analyst                          Phone: +64-9-373-0400




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Subject: Re: [dq] New draft of Namer College available
From: "Mandos Mitchinson" <mandos@nz.asiaonline.net>
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Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz

The first glitch I ran into is the True seeing spell. It would appear to
depower the illusion college to a great extent. I believe the spell should
be self only as the ability to cast it on the whole party detracts somewhat
from the range limitations.

Mandos
/



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Subject: [dq-announce] DQ Gods Meeting Agenda: 3rd December 2000
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-1) A volunteer is nominated to take the minutes.

0) Adventures Going Out
??

1) Campaign Voting Issues
- New Chair and Second for next session. 
  NB Currently Stephen is Chair and we have no second, someone else will
need to chair the guild meeting too.

2) Rules Voting Issues
None?

3) Other Campaign Issues
- Dark Circle, Seagate, and Guild Status and Future Direction.

4) Other Rules Issues  (probably re-convened in a Cafe somwhere so as not to
tie up Michael P any longer)
- Witchsight/Invis Discussion

NB Progress Reports should be supplied by Email prior to Sunday.

Cheers, Stephen.




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Subject: Re: [dq] New draft of Namer College available
From: "Andrew Withy (DSL AK)" <AndrewW@datacom.co.nz>
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If the True Seeing spell does similar things to the Rune College Rune of
Truth - no problem.

If it makes the Illusion college transparent to the target of the spell, we
simply kill all the Namers - no problem.

If you won't allow us to wipe out 20-30 PCs, we introduce a spell that lets
you ignore 80% of any other college, starting with Namer - we share the
problem.

Seriously, the ability to detect that something is an illusion (DA or true
seeing), coupled with having the illusion CSs ranked, means that Namers can
deal with most illusions without worrying, and far better than anyone else
except an Illusionist. Getting to see through them is too much - we recently
seemed to confirm that Illusionists didn't get to see through their *own*
illusions. I read "translucent" for transparent when describing how the
illusion changed for the viewer.

Andrew

-----Original Message-----
From: Mandos Mitchinson [mailto:mandos@nz.asiaonline.net]
Sent: Friday, 1 December 2000 2:20 p.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] New draft of Namer College available


The first glitch I ran into is the True seeing spell. It would appear to
depower the illusion college to a great extent. I believe the spell should
be self only as the ability to cast it on the whole party detracts somewhat
from the range limitations.

Mandos
/



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Subject: Re: [dq] New draft of Namer College available
From: Martin Dickson <martin.dickson@peace.com>
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Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz

Hi Mandos,

The True Seeing spell was the subject of considerable discussion last version
and has been substantially depowered from its initial appearance.

The spell is an area effect spell rather than cast upon either the Namer or
other people so that it is static -- making it mobile by casting on Self would
give the Namer a chance to cover a far greater area.  So, for a short time (1/2
a minute up to 4 minutes at Rank 20) and only within a fairly tight and static
area illusions, invisible things and transformed things are revealed (providing
the magic is of equal or lesser rank).

Another reason for not making the spell Self is to allow the GM to describe
what is seen to the entire party rather than having the more akward situation
of having to describe it to only the Namer.

Cheers,
Martin

---

Mandos Mitchinson wrote:

> The first glitch I ran into is the True seeing spell. It would appear to
> depower the illusion college to a great extent. I believe the spell should
> be self only as the ability to cast it on the whole party detracts somewhat
> from the range limitations.
>
> Mandos
> /
>
> -- to unsubscribe see http://www kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html --

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 _/_/  Peace Software New Zealand Ltd   Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com
_/     Martin Dickson                   Fax  : +64-9-373-0401
       Analyst                          Phone: +64-9-373-0400




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Subject: Re: [dq] New draft of Namer College available
From: Martin Dickson <martin.dickson@peace.com>
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"Andrew Withy (DSL AK)" wrote:

> I read "translucent" for transparent when describing how the
> illusion changed for the viewer.

I think that changing "slightly transparent" to "translucent" would be a fair
alteration -- the intention is _not_ to allow the Namer to see through the
Illusion, only to detect that it is there.

--

 _/_/  Peace Software New Zealand Ltd   Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com
_/     Martin Dickson                   Fax  : +64-9-373-0401
       Analyst                          Phone: +64-9-373-0400




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Subject: Re: [dq] New draft of Namer College available
From: "Mandos Mitchinson" <mandos@nz.asiaonline.net>
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Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz


> Hi Mandos,
>
> The True Seeing spell was the subject of considerable discussion
> last version
> and has been substantially depowered from its initial appearance.
>
> The spell is an area effect spell rather than cast upon either
> the Namer or
> other people so that it is static -- making it mobile by casting
> on Self would
> give the Namer a chance to cover a far greater area.  So, for a
> short time (1/2
> a minute up to 4 minutes at Rank 20) and only within a fairly
> tight and static
> area illusions, invisible things and transformed things are
> revealed (providing
> the magic is of equal or lesser rank).

Ah, my error, I misread the spell in my brief overview. :-) It is therefore
fine.

Mandos
/s



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Subject: Re: [dq] New draft of Namer College available
From: "Mark Simpson" <Mark_Simpson@westpactrust.co.nz>
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Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz

Re - Trueseeing - I still think the spell is a problem if it "sees through"
illusions (is that the intention of the wording "illusions are obvious and
slightly transparent"?). Unfortunately, unlike other colleges to whom this
spell only counteracts one or two spells in the college (eg Mind, E&E etc.)
for illusionist's it counters/nullifies the effect of 90% or more  of the
spells in the college. By way of an example disguise illusion is far more
dangerous to use now - any powerful npc will have his/her court namer mage
cast the spell and then have the party "shown in" to the meeting room by
the guards and hey presto - "Hey , you lot are not [orc's/drow/insert
disguise here] - your are really XYZ, Guards!!! .... ". You get the idea.
And disguise is a high em spell thats primary use is exactly that sort of
subterfuge (sp?).

How does the spell work with Illusionary aura? Not that ultimately that
will matter if you have used that ritual in conjunction with disguise to
change your race as that will be obvious when the disguise is "seen
through". The spell would also disable the project image talent I would
assume. What about concealed casting?

At the end of the day the spell still renders ineffective most/all of one
college.  Yes its for a limited time/area - but nevertheless we are talking
about 2 minutes 10 seconds and 130 feet at rank 10. I just don't see how
there is a workable compromise here - either the spells doesn't effect
illusions or it negates most of the college (although I hope i'm wrong on
this).

Somewhat Off topic mini-rant:
The rank restriction (only seeing the true nature of  lesser ranked things)
is ultimately more annoying (to both gm's and players) than helpful in my
humble opinion (yes, I also hate the new invis. rules as well). I think we
should avoid as much as possible this rank comparison in spells where the
net effect is a binary "higher rank wins - lower rank spell is completely
ineffective" result.  If thats the only reason for ranking a spell then we
should re-write the spell so that theres another more legitimate one.

/\/\ark




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From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz  Fri Dec  1 17:55:57 2000
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Subject: Re: [dq] New draft of Namer College available
From: Martin Dickson <martin.dickson@peace.com>
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Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz

Hi Mark,

I think you've hit on the compromise... more on that below...

Mark Simpson wrote:

> Re - Trueseeing - I still think the spell is a problem if it "sees through"
> illusions (is that the intention of the wording "illusions are obvious and
> slightly transparent"?).

My bad.  The wording was just mean to be a variant on "it is obvious"... and
wasn't meant to mean that the illusion vould be seen through.  Andrew's
"translucent" is closer to what I was actually thinking and "illusions glow a
bit" would be OK too.


> Somewhat Off topic mini-rant:
> The rank restriction (only seeing the true nature of  lesser ranked things)
> is ultimately more annoying ... I think we should avoid as much as possible
> this rank comparison in spells where the net effect is a binary "higher rank
> wins - lower rank spell is completely ineffective" result.

This could well be a solution/compromise.

How about something like:

Compare rank of True Seeing with Rank of alteration magic/Invis/Illusion

Lower: Nothing detected
Equal: Slight imperfections only revealed, Perception based % chance of
noticing, Invis glows a bit (Will 'o' Wisp effect)
1-5 Ranks higher: Somewhat more obvious... Better PC%...
6-10 Ranks higher: Quite obvious... Toads that are really Princes have little
gold crowns... Invis appears spectral...
More than 10 Ranks higher: Bleeding obvious... Illusions translucent... Invis
revealed...

Cheers,
Martin

--

 _/_/  Peace Software New Zealand Ltd   Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com
_/     Martin Dickson                   Fax  : +64-9-373-0401
       Analyst                          Phone: +64-9-373-0400




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From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz  Fri Dec  1 18:56:00 2000
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Subject: Re: [dq] DQ Gods Meeting Agenda: 3rd December 2000
From: "Paul Schmidt" <pope.ug@ihug.co.nz>
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Reply-To: pope.ug@ihug.co.nz

I'll be running a med-high game next session.

Cheers
Paul
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stephen Martin" <stephenm@qed.co.nz>
To: <dq-announce@dq.sf.org.nz>
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2000 2:57 PM
Subject: [dq-announce] DQ Gods Meeting Agenda: 3rd December 2000


>
> -1) A volunteer is nominated to take the minutes.
>
> 0) Adventures Going Out
> ??
>
> 1) Campaign Voting Issues
> - New Chair and Second for next session.
>   NB Currently Stephen is Chair and we have no second, someone else will
> need to chair the guild meeting too.
>
> 2) Rules Voting Issues
> None?
>
> 3) Other Campaign Issues
> - Dark Circle, Seagate, and Guild Status and Future Direction.
>
> 4) Other Rules Issues  (probably re-convened in a Cafe somwhere so as not
to
> tie up Michael P any longer)
> - Witchsight/Invis Discussion
>
> NB Progress Reports should be supplied by Email prior to Sunday.
>
> Cheers, Stephen.
>
>
>
>
> -- to unsubscribe see http://www kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html --
>



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From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz  Fri Dec  1 20:05:53 2000
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Subject: Re: [dq] New draft of Namer College available
From: "Michael Young" <m_young@ihug.co.nz>
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Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz

Well I havent read the new Namer college yet AT ALL, so I may be shooting in
the dark but from what I have seen here I have to agree with Mark. I'm not
sure what the problem with Illusions and Witchsight are that you are all
having cos its not a problem when I GM. But then I'm a genius, right?  LOL


Be real useful if say Andrew W. explained the problem to me as I REALLY dont
understand what all the fuss is about regard Witchsight and invisible
effects. Ditto with all the illusion problems the rest of you seem to be
having. So someone give me a call or email and try and get it through my
thick skull. Because I'm cant see whats the problem!


Regards,
Michael Young

----- Original Message -----
From: Mark Simpson <Mark_Simpson@westpactrust.co.nz>
To: <dq@dq.sf.org.nz>
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2000 5:08 PM
Subject: Re: [dq] New draft of Namer College available


> Re - Trueseeing - I still think the spell is a problem if it "sees
through"
> illusions (is that the intention of the wording "illusions are obvious and
> slightly transparent"?). Unfortunately, unlike other colleges to whom this
> spell only counteracts one or two spells in the college (eg Mind, E&E
etc.)
> for illusionist's it counters/nullifies the effect of 90% or more  of the
> spells in the college. By way of an example disguise illusion is far more
> dangerous to use now - any powerful npc will have his/her court namer mage
> cast the spell and then have the party "shown in" to the meeting room by
> the guards and hey presto - "Hey , you lot are not [orc's/drow/insert
> disguise here] - your are really XYZ, Guards!!! .... ". You get the idea.
> And disguise is a high em spell thats primary use is exactly that sort of
> subterfuge (sp?).
>
> How does the spell work with Illusionary aura? Not that ultimately that
> will matter if you have used that ritual in conjunction with disguise to
> change your race as that will be obvious when the disguise is "seen
> through". The spell would also disable the project image talent I would
> assume. What about concealed casting?
>
> At the end of the day the spell still renders ineffective most/all of one
> college.  Yes its for a limited time/area - but nevertheless we are
talking
> about 2 minutes 10 seconds and 130 feet at rank 10. I just don't see how
> there is a workable compromise here - either the spells doesn't effect
> illusions or it negates most of the college (although I hope i'm wrong on
> this).
>
> Somewhat Off topic mini-rant:
> The rank restriction (only seeing the true nature of  lesser ranked
things)
> is ultimately more annoying (to both gm's and players) than helpful in my
> humble opinion (yes, I also hate the new invis. rules as well). I think we
> should avoid as much as possible this rank comparison in spells where the
> net effect is a binary "higher rank wins - lower rank spell is completely
> ineffective" result.  If thats the only reason for ranking a spell then we
> should re-write the spell so that theres another more legitimate one.
>
> /\/\ark
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> The contents of this e-mail are confidential.
> If you have received this communication by mistake,
> please advise the sender immediately and delete the message and
> any attachments.
> The views expressed in this e-mail are not necessarily the views of
> Westpac Banking Corporation.
> Westpac Banking Corporation is incorporated in New South Wales, Australia.
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
> -- to unsubscribe see http://www kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html --
>



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Subject: Re: [dq] New draft of Namer College available
From: "Dworkin" <dworkin@ihug.co.nz>
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Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz


Well, I used to be only scared of Namers.
Now I'm terrified :-)

Questions:

 What is the area affected by the disjunction spell (S-4)?

 What is the fuss with True Seeing? It lasts a very short time and so, for
example a court namer won't be casting it on every group of flunkies who
come in unless the boss in question has things like hot and cold running
restoratives/healing potions. In that case then you're likely to be in the
extra funky league yourself and so will be able to deal with it. Nowhere
near as bad as a court mind-mage, their spell of choice can last hours and
every flunky could be checked, it's not LOS either.

I'm waiting for the first rank 12 Bane (S-1) to land on a party. 45ft of -70
to cast chances. I can hear the screaming now.

William (putting in earplugs cos I'm a sensitive soul)



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Subject: Re: [dq-announce] New draft of Namer College available
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Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz


Well, I used to be only scared of Namers.
Now I'm terrified :-)

Questions:

 What is the area affected by the disjunction spell (S-4)?

 What is the fuss with True Seeing? It lasts a very short time and so, for
example a court namer won't be casting it on every group of flunkies who
come in unless the boss in question has things like hot and cold running
restoratives/healing potions. In that case then you're likely to be in the
extra funky league yourself and so will be able to deal with it. Nowhere
near as bad as a court mind-mage, their spell of choice can last hours and
every flunky could be checked, it's not LOS either.

I'm waiting for the first rank 12 Bane (S-1) to land on a party. 45ft of -70
to cast chances. I can hear the screaming now.

William (putting in earplugs cos I'm a sensitive soul)



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Subject: [dq] Namer Specials
From: "Michael Parkinson" <m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz>
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> Well, I used to be only scared of Namers.
> Now I'm terrified :-)

you mean you *weren't* already terrified of your typical Namer -- a
muscle-bound hand&ahalf wielder who having exhausted all desired military &
skill options was desperately seeking some other place to sink their EP ?

Bane (S-1)

Do we want the AoE increasing?

IF SO:
  X' +10' dia per Y ranks is the right formula & if Y is *greater* than 4
or 5 you'll have another spell like the current Compel -- few people
ranking it, but those who do tending to become (for atleast a few years) a
1-spell mage, as they do everything to it to highish ranks.   Alternatives
such as a contiguous area of Rank hexes, or clusters of 1 mega-hex per Z
ranks are overly powerful & inelegant.  I feel that all Areas-o-E (if a
spell has one) for namer magic should be circles about a target point or
(if appropriate) beams from the namer.

If NOT:
& AoE is fixed, then we either have the AoE impracticably small or have the
[slight] bug at low ranks of including the Namers & their hangers-on inside
the AoE (how entertaining!).   My personal preference is for a significant
FIXED AoE, but one which may be vacated by almost all entities within 1
pulse [say 35' dia] with the Effect within that AoE starting low &
increasing per rank.

That being said, I do suspect eitherway that the %age reduction *may* need
tweaking: the current draft Rank 4 wipes out the bonus from 10 ranks in AoE
Rank10 wipes out the maximum ranking effect [20].    And do we need to be
explicit that it is the entities within the AoE that passively resist.
However in concept the spell is fine.  I think Adam said:
#One of the biggest annoyances for a Namer ( and I admit I do it to parties
too ) is to keep coming across non-colleged magic which you can't do shit
about.

These days, *Active* resistance of spells is rarely successful; but we do
need to consider how it may interact with Bane [they are different magical
concepts, but presumably the greatest reduction is applied].

If people or GMs want another way to tone down the effect of the spell, we
could have the reduction as a minimal effect of, say, 10% (the Rank 0
effect)  requiring the Namer to concentrate on the Area for it to have full
effect -- but I'm not certain that's a desirable game choice, or that it is
necessarily in tune with Martin's flavour of the college (which I like)


Compel Obedience (S-3)

This (at last!!) has the right feel to it.  The old spell was so powerful
that most GMs used technicalities to weasel out of its full effect [myself
included]; as a player I didn't rank it because I saw it as a game-breaker.

I'm happy to elaborate the details, if necessary.




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Subject: [dq] Bane -- Re: [dq] Namer Specials
From: Martin Dickson <martin.dickson@peace.com>
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Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz

Michael Parkinson wrote:

> ...you'll have another spell like the current Compel -- few people
> ranking it, but those who do tending to become (for atleast a few years) a
> 1-spell mage, as they do everything to it to highish ranks.

I'll play with some numbers for AoE.  My preference is for an area that gets
larger with Rank, and which as Michael says: "may be vacated by almost all
entities within 1 pulse [say 35' dia] with the Effect within that AoE starting
low & increasing per rank".

> That being said, I do suspect eitherway that the %age reduction *may* need
> tweaking:

After some off-board discussions about the efficacy of Bane the per Rank effect
will be dropping in the next draft to a reduction of 3%.  The base may also be
dropped to either 5% or 3%.

The overall effect of this is to make each Rank in Bane negate only a single
Rank of spells in the area.

Thanks for the review.

Cheers,
Martin

--

 _/_/  Peace Software New Zealand Ltd   Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com
_/     Martin Dickson                   Fax  : +64-9-373-0401
       Analyst                          Phone: +64-9-373-0400




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Subject: [dq] Recap of Witchsight & Illusion issues
From: "Andrew Withy (DSL AK)" <AndrewW@datacom.co.nz>
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Michael et al.

As I see it, there are five "problems" with the new witchsight rules.
1) GMs aren't used to them yet, and don't instinctively get them right, so
they either need to back up and change what they've just done, or play by
the old rules for that encounter. This will be solved with a little time, if
the GMs *emotionally* accept the rule change.
2) The "something's there but I can't recognise/target it" result when
looking at high-ranked invis can be confusing to players & GMs. Again their
intuitions aren't in tune with the change. Is it counter-intuitive or just a
change?
3) In low level games, Walking Unseen has been depowered, requiring a
behaviour change by players. It was too powerful, now it might be too weak.
4) The PC witchsight talents / spells have not yet acclimatised to the new
rules. This means that PCs who expected to see everything now can't.
(Example, my PC had 108% witchsight at Rank 7 - now he needs Rank 20 for the
same result).
5) The GM needs to reveal the rank of the invis (at least approx).

Most of these problems will go away with a little time, practise &
acceptance. I had little trouble GMing or playing it, but my players and GMs
had trouble with the effects, whenever I used rank 16+ invis either as
player & GM.

On the other hand, Keith's suggestion last month gives an intermediate
result, making unseen useful against very low ranked witchsight, and
high-experience PCs have an advantage over newer ones, resolving most of
issues #2, #3 & #4 above. In summary, I think he suggested : 
At Witchsight Rank WRk & Perception PC, a character can see Walking Unseen
of up to Rank WRk*2 + (PC over 15) and Invis of WRk/2 + (PC over 15). Each
player would have to write down once a session what invis & unseen ranks
they could see, next to their talent rank.

I feel this would resolve some of the issues and possbly get greater
acceptance.

-----------
The "Illusion thing" was more a matter of asking people's expectations and
raising awareness. Like Mark Simpson & Michael Woodhams, as a PC
illusionist, I don't need to see through my own illusions or anyone else's.
However, if GMs are generally going to consider that illusions should be
seen through and thus make a significant portion of NPCs ignore them for
other than specific plot/background reasons, then this should be an agreed
part of the campaign. Many illusions are only effective when *everybody* is
fooled, particularly in court/social/non-combat settings. I thought that
raising the topic of illusionists being able to see through illusions would
get people talking about illusions and people seeing through them in
general.

The next step is either to try to write up an exact proposal for a "see
through illusions" spell or talent, or drop the topic. As I'm not interested
in introducing such a spell or talent either as GM or player, I'm not doing
anything about it - but anyone else may, if they wish.


Andrew
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Young [mailto:m_young@ihug.co.nz]
Sent: Friday, 1 December 2000 8:00 p.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] New draft of Namer College available


Well I havent read the new Namer college yet AT ALL, so I may be shooting in
the dark but from what I have seen here I have to agree with Mark. I'm not
sure what the problem with Illusions and Witchsight are that you are all
having cos its not a problem when I GM. But then I'm a genius, right?  LOL


Be real useful if say Andrew W. explained the problem to me as I REALLY dont
understand what all the fuss is about regard Witchsight and invisible
effects. Ditto with all the illusion problems the rest of you seem to be
having. So someone give me a call or email and try and get it through my
thick skull. Because I'm cant see whats the problem!


Regards,
Michael Young

----- Original Message -----
From: Mark Simpson <Mark_Simpson@westpactrust.co.nz>
To: <dq@dq.sf.org.nz>
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2000 5:08 PM
Subject: Re: [dq] New draft of Namer College available


> Re - Trueseeing - I still think the spell is a problem if it "sees
through" illusions 

> /\/\ark
>


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Subject: [dq-announce] Articles required for Seagate Times
From: Keith Smith <phaeton@ihug.co.nz>
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It's time to put quill to parchment (or whatever media you care to use) and 
get those articles rolling in. We especially want news of what has been 
happening to adventuring parties and also what has been going on in the 
world. Articles on the current state of the Dark Circle, Seagate/Cazala and 
the Spawn are especially required However we are still after our regular 
stuff such as:
	Quotes
	Puzzles
	Rumours
	What's Hot & What's Not
	etc

Could we please have all your contributions by Friday evening/early 
Saturday morning at the latest.

Thanks,

Keith
(phaeton@ihug.co.nz)



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Subject: [dq-announce] DQ Rule books
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This is a multipart message in MIME format.
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I've been asked to print out a rule book for the Guild meeting so I 
thought I'd see if anyone else wanted one at the same time.
Email me if you do.

Rosemary
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<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">I've been asked to print out a rule book for the Guild meeting so I thought I'd see if anyone else wanted one at the same time.</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Email me if you do.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Rosemary</font>
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Subject: Re: [dq] Recap of Witchsight & Illusion issues
From: Stephen Martin <stephenm@qed.co.nz>
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A couple of points:
Using Rk16+ invis against a low or medium party has always been nasty.  In
the same way as using Undetectability against them is nasty.  High levels
have usually been fine against Invis as most of them had or had access to
100% witchsight.
Now (as Andrew mentioned below) the ranks in Witchsight need time to adjust,
and GMs need to be cautious in their use of Rk16+ invis in the same way that
they are cautious in their use of Undetectability.

Keiths suggestion while it may be reasonable and desirable from a balance
point of view, needs to be weighed up against the fact that a large number
of DQ players will never be able to work it out.  I'm talking about the
players who need to be told what their unengaged and engaged IV values are
every pulse.

Cheers, Stephen.

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Andrew Withy (DSL AK) [SMTP:AndrewW@datacom.co.nz]
> Sent:	Monday, 4 December 2000 09:13
> To:	dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject:	[dq] Recap of Witchsight & Illusion issues
> 
> Michael et al.
> 
> As I see it, there are five "problems" with the new witchsight rules.
> 1) GMs aren't used to them yet, and don't instinctively get them right, so
> they either need to back up and change what they've just done, or play by
> the old rules for that encounter. This will be solved with a little time,
> if
> the GMs *emotionally* accept the rule change.
> 2) The "something's there but I can't recognise/target it" result when
> looking at high-ranked invis can be confusing to players & GMs. Again
> their
> intuitions aren't in tune with the change. Is it counter-intuitive or just
> a
> change?
> 3) In low level games, Walking Unseen has been depowered, requiring a
> behaviour change by players. It was too powerful, now it might be too
> weak.
> 4) The PC witchsight talents / spells have not yet acclimatised to the new
> rules. This means that PCs who expected to see everything now can't.
> (Example, my PC had 108% witchsight at Rank 7 - now he needs Rank 20 for
> the
> same result).
> 5) The GM needs to reveal the rank of the invis (at least approx).
> 
> Most of these problems will go away with a little time, practise &
> acceptance. I had little trouble GMing or playing it, but my players and
> GMs
> had trouble with the effects, whenever I used rank 16+ invis either as
> player & GM.
> 
	[Stephen Martin]  snip 


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Subject: Re: [dq] Bane -- Re: [dq] Namer Specials
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Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz

I agree with making the effect rank for rank.
However as far as area goes I'm like something along these lines...
Range: 5 feet (+5 per rank)
Area of Effect: 30 foot radius from target (+30 per rank)

A nasty spell ) but it usually affects everybody - including the caster
<Evil Grin>.

Or possibly just range self like agony - only without the immunity.

Cheers, Stephen.

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Martin Dickson [SMTP:martin.dickson@peace.com]
> Sent:	Monday, 4 December 2000 09:15
> To:	dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject:	[dq] Bane -- Re: [dq] Namer Specials
> 
> Michael Parkinson wrote:
> 
> > ...you'll have another spell like the current Compel -- few people
> > ranking it, but those who do tending to become (for atleast a few years)
> a
> > 1-spell mage, as they do everything to it to highish ranks.
> 
> I'll play with some numbers for AoE.  My preference is for an area that
> gets
> larger with Rank, and which as Michael says: "may be vacated by almost all
> entities within 1 pulse [say 35' dia] with the Effect within that AoE
> starting
> low & increasing per rank".
> 
> > That being said, I do suspect eitherway that the %age reduction *may*
> need
> > tweaking:
> 
> After some off-board discussions about the efficacy of Bane the per Rank
> effect
> will be dropping in the next draft to a reduction of 3%.  The base may
> also be
> dropped to either 5% or 3%.
> 
> The overall effect of this is to make each Rank in Bane negate only a
> single
> Rank of spells in the area.
> 
> Thanks for the review.
> 
> Cheers,
> Martin
> 


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Subject: Re: [dq] Recap of Witchsight & Illusion issues
From: "Michael Young" <m_young@ihug.co.nz>
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Lets face it Stephen. Half the GM's cant figure it out either! This whole
Witchsight, Illusion and Light/Dark has never been a problem for me as a GM.
Just some other dummies out there! At least now I know why they are having
problems.

Regards,
Michael Young


----- Original Message -----
From: Stephen Martin <stephenm@qed.co.nz>
To: <dq@dq.sf.org.nz>
Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 12:01 PM
Subject: Re: [dq] Recap of Witchsight & Illusion issues


> A couple of points:
> Using Rk16+ invis against a low or medium party has always been nasty.  In
> the same way as using Undetectability against them is nasty.  High levels
> have usually been fine against Invis as most of them had or had access to
> 100% witchsight.
> Now (as Andrew mentioned below) the ranks in Witchsight need time to
adjust,
> and GMs need to be cautious in their use of Rk16+ invis in the same way
that
> they are cautious in their use of Undetectability.
>
> Keiths suggestion while it may be reasonable and desirable from a balance
> point of view, needs to be weighed up against the fact that a large number
> of DQ players will never be able to work it out.  I'm talking about the
> players who need to be told what their unengaged and engaged IV values are
> every pulse.
>
> Cheers, Stephen.
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Andrew Withy (DSL AK) [SMTP:AndrewW@datacom.co.nz]
> > Sent: Monday, 4 December 2000 09:13
> > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> > Subject: [dq] Recap of Witchsight & Illusion issues
> >
> > Michael et al.
> >
> > As I see it, there are five "problems" with the new witchsight rules.
> > 1) GMs aren't used to them yet, and don't instinctively get them right,
so
> > they either need to back up and change what they've just done, or play
by
> > the old rules for that encounter. This will be solved with a little
time,
> > if
> > the GMs *emotionally* accept the rule change.
> > 2) The "something's there but I can't recognise/target it" result when
> > looking at high-ranked invis can be confusing to players & GMs. Again
> > their
> > intuitions aren't in tune with the change. Is it counter-intuitive or
just
> > a
> > change?
> > 3) In low level games, Walking Unseen has been depowered, requiring a
> > behaviour change by players. It was too powerful, now it might be too
> > weak.
> > 4) The PC witchsight talents / spells have not yet acclimatised to the
new
> > rules. This means that PCs who expected to see everything now can't.
> > (Example, my PC had 108% witchsight at Rank 7 - now he needs Rank 20 for
> > the
> > same result).
> > 5) The GM needs to reveal the rank of the invis (at least approx).
> >
> > Most of these problems will go away with a little time, practise &
> > acceptance. I had little trouble GMing or playing it, but my players and
> > GMs
> > had trouble with the effects, whenever I used rank 16+ invis either as
> > player & GM.
> >
> [Stephen Martin]  snip
>
>
> -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html --
>



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Subject: [dq-announce] Anyone have a new e-mail address for Julia Johnson?
From: Keith Smith <phaeton@ihug.co.nz>
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I've just had to remove Julia's clear.net.nz from the lists as I was 
getting bounce messages saying the address no longer is valid. Could anyone 
provide me with a new one please?

Keith
(phaeton@ihug.co.nz)



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Subject: [dq] Namer: ITNs and Bane
From: Clare West <clare@cs.auckland.ac.nz>
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Reply-To: clare@cs.auckland.ac.nz

I have only skimmed the Namer College. A couple of points

why oh why have ITNs been depowered. They weren't powerful enough before =
and now they are even weaker. (picture lots of placard waving).=20

As written Bane is very overpowered, but I see that this is already =
going to be addressed. I idly wondered whether it would be cute to make =
it like Enhance, and reduce the spells BC, or Damage, or Range by X =
ranks.

clare
(who plays a Namer - just so you know by bias)=


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Subject: Re: [dq] Namer: ITNs and Bane
From: Martin Dickson <martin.dickson@peace.com>
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Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz

Clare West wrote:

> I have only skimmed the Namer College. A couple of points
>
> why oh why have ITNs been depowered. They weren't powerful enough before and now they are even weaker. (picture lots of placard waving).

Hi Clare,

Que?  Depowered in what way?  Could you expand on that?

It's true that they only add +2% in the new version but then they only take 1/4th the time to Rank...which effectively means about double the Rank takes the same time, so if you have an ITN at Rank 6 (6 x 5 = +30%) now
it would convert to/be equivalent to having Rank 11 (11 x 2 = +22%) and the target gets -11% MR.

The depower (as such) is that they still only go to Rank 20 so their max effect is reduced.  That said, rank 10 currently takes 55 months (4 1/2 years!) for one ITN, so the only one Namers rank that high is their
own... which then gives them +50 on Banishment meaning they don't bother to Rank it... and making the introduction of similar spells like Dispel Magic far more problematic because even with a very low BC a namer with
reasonable ranks in their own ITN (and GTN) has vastly more bonus than another college could manage.  (By way of example, Mary M gets +70% when casting on herself (Rank 11 ITN, Rank 15 GTN), and I am sure other namers
are in a  similar situation).

What the reduction to +2%, 1 week to Rank should mean is that Namers may actually rank some of the ITNs they have since they're not facing such a huge training time cost.

The other (suggested/draft) de-power is that they take up MA "slots" in exactly the same way as spells.  This may not end up in the final version of True Names.

> As written Bane is very overpowered, but I see that this is already going to be addressed. I idly wondered whether it would be cute to make it like Enhance, and reduce the spells BC, or Damage, or Range by X ranks.

Hmmm... Anti-enhance?  Yeah... if people still think Bane is overpowered at -3%/Rank that would be well worth considering.

> clare
> (who plays a Namer - just so you know by bias)

:)

--

 _/_/  Peace Software New Zealand Ltd   Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com
_/     Martin Dickson                   Fax  : +64-9-373-0401
       Analyst                          Phone: +64-9-373-0400




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Subject: Re: [dq] Namer: ITNs and Bane
From: "Andrew Withy (DSL AK)" <AndrewW@datacom.co.nz>
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Disenhancement is already in the game for an E&E mage. Phil Judd could tell
you how tough it is or isn't in practice.

Changing Bane to being -3BC/Rank OR -1 Rk of Damage /Rank, OR -1 Rk of Range
/Rank OR -1 Rk of Duration /Rank is tougher than just -3BC/Rank - it gives
flexibility of application, e.g. being able to drop damage a little may mean
it doesn't get through the party's protection at all  - its also better at
low ranks vs tough opponents, because it will always make a small difference
while BC may not. Subtle uses also become possible - dropping the duration
of someone's wings would be nasty and hard to spot, for instance.

Having said that, I'm not against the idea of Bane as a Disenhance. It just
gives options for Namers to think.

Andrew
-----Original Message-----

> As written Bane is very overpowered, but I see that this is already going
to be addressed. I idly wondered whether it would be cute to make it like
Enhance, and reduce the spells BC, or Damage, or Range by X ranks.

Hmmm... Anti-enhance?  Yeah... if people still think Bane is overpowered at
-3%/Rank that would be well worth considering.



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Subject: Re: [dq] Namer: ITNs and Bane
From: Clare West <clare@cs.auckland.ac.nz>
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Reply-To: clare@cs.auckland.ac.nz


On Wednesday, December 6, 2000, at 01:30 PM, Andrew Withy (DSL AK) =
wrote:

> Disenhancement is already in the game for an E&E mage. Phil Judd could =
tell=20
> you how tough it is or isn't in practice.=20
> =20
> Changing Bane to being -3BC/Rank OR -1 Rk of Damage /Rank, OR -1 Rk of =
Range=20
> /Rank OR -1 Rk of Duration /Rank is tougher than just -3BC/Rank - it =
gives=20
> flexibility of application, e.g. being able to drop damage a little =
may mean=20
> it doesn't get through the party's protection at all  - its also =
better at=20
> low ranks vs tough opponents, because it will always make a small =
difference=20
> while BC may not. Subtle uses also become possible - dropping the =
duration=20
> of someone's wings would be nasty and hard to spot, for instance.=20

Indeed it is more powerful, except against low ranked opponents. As it =
subtracts ranks, I imagined it would only allow a reduction to rank 0. =
The fewer ranks you have, the less you have to lose.=20

> Having said that, I'm not against the idea of Bane as a Disenhance. It =
just=20
> gives options for Namers to think.=20

Well this rewrite is all about giving Namers options isn't it?

clare=


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Subject: Re: [dq] Namer: ITNs and Bane
From: Clare West <clare@cs.auckland.ac.nz>
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Reply-To: clare@cs.auckland.ac.nz


On Wednesday, December 6, 2000, at 01:08 PM, Martin Dickson wrote:

> Clare West wrote:=20
> =20
> > I have only skimmed the Namer College. A couple of points=20
> >=20
> > why oh why have ITNs been depowered. They weren't powerful enough =
before and now they are=20
> even weaker. (picture lots of placard waving).=20
> =20
> Hi Clare,=20
> =20
> Que?  Depowered in what way?  Could you expand on that?=20

Well as I said I only skimmed it.

> It's true that they only add +2% in the new version but then they only =
take 1/4th the time to=20
> Rank...which effectively means about double the Rank takes the same =
time, so if you have an=20
> ITN at Rank 6 (6 x 5 =3D +30%) now=20
> it would convert to/be equivalent to having Rank 11 (11 x 2 =3D +22%) =
and the target gets -11%=20
> MR.=20

OK mea cupla - I missed the reduction in magic resistance. I much prefer =
the reduction in magic resistance to the increase in base chance as an =
effect. I mostly take it back. Swapping the reduction in magic =
resistance and increase in base chance (-2%/rank, +1%/rank) would be =
even better but this is more powerful than things were before as it is.

> > As written Bane is very overpowered, but I see that this is already =
going to be addressed. I=20
> idly wondered whether it would be cute to make it like Enhance, and =
reduce the spells BC, or=20
> Damage, or Range by X ranks.=20
> =20
> Hmmm... Anti-enhance?  Yeah... if people still think Bane is =
overpowered at -3%/Rank that=20
> would be well worth considering.=20

As I commented in another reply, an anti-enhance is more flexible and =
arguably more powerful (especially against high ranked opponents) than =
Bane as written.

clare=


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Subject: [dq] Mind clarification
From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Ian__Wood_&_Ellen__Hume=A0&_Adara_Wood?=" <adara@ihug.co.nz>
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Dear all

I have pondered this for some time, and with lots of help, have come up with
a document that is worthy of your time.
Jackie  provided an excellent foundation. Overall Mind is a good, not great,
college - this will make it an understood college that is easy to play
consistently, without continual questions and discussions. It will not
become a great college.

Main changes are to flavour, as I did not see the survey recognising that we
have natural mentalist powers, and hence magical enhancement leaves us where
we currently are (IE zero).

I have made several amendments to reinforce the survey results.

I have also made some proposed fixes (changes) to spells which are either
broken or not interpreted.

**this is written in MS Word97 with the _changes_ turned on, so you can see
each and every typo I added.**
If you wish rich text format then please reply off list.

REQUEST
If you agree or disaggree with a comment made on the list (about this
clarification) then please email me off-list with a simple Agree/disagree
comment. This will enable me to gauge teh degree of aggrement comments have.

If you are not sure of what someone wrote, then ASK A QUESTION of them on
the list. Please do not flame.

I will collate replies and publish them, along with their effect on the end
result (ahem).

WHAT IS NEXT
I will collate your replies and advice.
I am also considering writing an expanded "GMs Guide to the Mind College"
that explains, in modern terms, exactly what I had in mind for each spell,
how it works, or doesn't, together with diagrams etc. This may help the
discussion, or it may not. your comments on this idea are very welcome
(preferably before I start <grin>).


many thanks Ian




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------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C06058.6E2B64A0--



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From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz  Thu Dec  7 14:42:07 2000
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Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 14:35:07 +1300 
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Subject: [dq-announce] Dark Circle and Seagate Briefing
From: Stephen Martin <stephenm@qed.co.nz>
To: dq-announce@dq.sf.org.nz
Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz
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Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz

Following are two articles for the seagate times, GMs please read these.
These are intended to represent the discussions held at last Sundays gods
meeting and wrt the Dark Circle, further discussions with Michael Young.
If there are any disputes or corrections please let me know before tomorrow
afternoon.
Anyone GMing in the Carzalan/Brastor area this session who has questions
about exactly how this applies to their game and the truth under the
publicity, please feel free to contact me directly.

Cheers, Stephen.

****************************************************************************
*****************

The Dark Circle has receeded!  
"The tide is turning in the battle against the Dark Circle, the purity and
holiness of our brave knights has driven the evil forces back!" said one
church representative.
Wishing to verify this great news himself out brave reported dug deeper and
has managed to independently discover the following...
- The size of the Dark Circle is not stable, while its leading edge has been
forced back the battle is not one-sided.  The leading edge seems to be
varying between 40 miles out from Seagate and 90 miles.  The size varies
seemingly randomly and the "Grey Zone" is considered dangerous by both
sides.  The forces of light generally dominate it during the day and
Rashaks' minions dominate it at night.
- So far the United Church, the Dwarves, Elven representatives, several
guild members, and one anonymous demon have claimed responsibility for
pushing back the Dark Circle.  None of them has been willingly to explain
exactly how they did it though.
- Most of Rashaks crack troops appear to have withdrawn from the Carzalan
front, it is not known whether they are consolidating for a renewed push or
are being used elsewhere.

As many of you will have noticed, our south-eastern border has a new
defensive line.  Many elemental mages (including notable guild members) have
been working on a new fortification.  It lies beyond Arns Ferry and Slippery
rock and stretches from the foothills of the Fastness of Gwyddion (sp?) at
its south-west end to the edge of the forest at its north-east end.  The
wall of fire-hardened earth and stone is 30 feet tall (60 feet wide at its
base), the water logged ditch on the far side is equally deep.  The few gaps
in the wall for access to Brastor are very heavily fortified.

The Duke is delighted to announce that many of the skilled workers from
Brastor have now been gainfully employed.  Much of the land to the
north-east of seagate which was previously un-cultivated has now been
intensively planted and new villages are springing up.
Also in a daring move the Duke has sent brave farmers back into Brastor with
a military escort.  They report to have planted a number of fields, and all
going well they will make another foray to harvest the crops in a few months
time.
One of the more immediate benefits of the Dukes work is that Seagate is
getting back to normal, the number of refugees living on the streets is
being significantly reduced as they are relocated into farms and outlying
villages.

****************************************************************************
********

Tax Rates Reduced!
In recognition and appreciation of the work the guild and its members have
done in combating the Dark Circle, the Duke has announced that the guild tax
rate is restored 10%.
The Duke is sure that with the guilds continued assistance the Dark Circle
will soon be vanquished.

****************************************************************************
**********




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Subject: [dq] mistake in Mind clarification
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Huge oops

Please 'Find and Replace' (ctrl+h) "Jackie" to "Jacqui" in entirety

Sentiments, acknowledgements and praise remain unchanged.

sorry about that Jacqui.

Ian



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Subject: [dq-announce] Minutes from the December Gods Meeting
From: Keith Smith <phaeton@ihug.co.nz>
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Below are the minutes from the Gods meeting. Please let me know if there 
are any corrections.

Keith
(phaeton@ihug.co.nz)

DQ Gods Meeting Minutes
December 2000

Present: Clare, Mike Parkinson, Andrew, Rosemary, Ian, Stephen, Jason

Chair and Assistant Chair
The current vice chairperson is Ian Wood, who will be the Chair for the 
upcoming Guild meeting, and next session's Gods meetings. The vice chair 
for the next session is Clare

Adventures going out
Andrew 	High, on plane, probably full by now
Keith		Overflow
Rosemary 	Low tending to bunny
Mike P 	Medium, lots of mages, success only
Clare		Overflow
Paul 		Medium
William 	High

Campaign Business						
We wish to keep the Dark Circle as a feature, as it gives Seagate more of a 
'frontier feel'. Some mechanism or effect has made it stabilise with the 
edge between Seagate and Brastor. The edge is now gradual, with about 50 - 
100 miles of increasing effect until the full effect occurs. This means 
that Brastor is now traversable. There will be some insincere letters of 
thanks to the Guild for 'stopping' the circle (anything to not thank the 
Church)

The Barbarian hordes are still out there, and a more conventional defence 
is required. The idea was raised to create a Breastwork between Cazala and 
Brastor. (eg Ofla's Dike or Hadrian's Wall)

The Duke of Carzala  is thinking of sending some of the Brastor refugees to 
Brastor to
plant the summer crops, under military escort.

The Guild Adventuring Tax rate is still officially 10%

White Lotus is coming up soon on the 5th of Meadow. This is one of 
the  unholy days  where the Powers of Darkness are at their strongest. The 
Dark Circle may also be stronger during that day as well.

DQ Discussion Lists
It was decided that the lists should not be moderated but people are asked 
not to respond to those messages that are volatile or are flaming others to 
the list. Recipients are asked to send simple 'me too' or "I disagree" 
messages to the originator to reduce the amount of overchat.

Work In Progress
Mind - to go to the discussion group
Ranger  -do we want multi specialisation
Astrology - a discussion document is to be produced
Namer - second draft has been released for comments.

Meeting Closed



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Subject: [dq-announce] Minutes from the Summer 801 Guild Meeting
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Minutes from the Guild Meeting
1st Meadow '801 WK

The meeting started with a complaint from a Hospitality Establishment. A 
guild party had visited it in the last session and, during their stay, 
managed to do at least 1,000sp worth of damage to the place. The Guild 
Chairman said that this sort of behaviour was not on. The party concerned 
should go back and do the job properly. If they don't know how - ask any orc.

The Dark Circle appears to have stabilised but there was a good chance that 
it may be stronger on the 5th of Meadow - White Lotus Day - as that day is 
one of the days when the Powers of Darkness are at their strongest.

1) Adventures going out.
Ausgar Atholson - a hobbit. We were told that their village, located near 
Sunnynook, has lost all it's mummies (that's the ones rolled up in cloth 
bandages) and that a short time ago, an undead army had tried to steal 
them. It wasn't known if the mummies had been stolen or had signed up for 
the army. No matter what, they needed to be found and returned by the Day 
of the Dead (3rd Breeze).  Also their guardian was loose and was last seen 
somewhere near Gugnacs Hope. It is the avatar of Anubis and is huge and 
black as night. There are some funds available for payment but these 
hobbits don't do cream buns. - Low/bunny, Tuesdays, Rosemary.

Duke Rackstretch - A party is required to cleanse a temple which has been 
occupied by 'church members'. For payment he offered a free range of 
therapeutic treatments for the spine. He also asked for people of high 
moral standards. Medium, Monday, Paul.

Duff, Son of Duff -  Before the person was introduced, Guild Security read 
a warning that this adventure was an unknown off-plane risk and that it was 
not possible to go through the usual verification procedures. The party 
will be working for the Green Orcs on the Plane of Purple. Apparently the 
party will be summoned and compelled to do a task within a certain time 
limit. Success is possible but if they don't succeed the party will be on 
the Roll of Honour.
         After being brought in he addressed the meeting with the words 
"Greetings o powerful demons." He's here to summon those who want to go 
with him to perform a task and they will be paid. Mages are required. 
Medium, Thursday, Mike Parkinson.

Keldress - He is the High Priest of the Illimari and told us that the 
Calimar had captured a Naming Demon with the intention of collecting ITNs 
of their enemies, using a special device. The Names would include many 
Guild members. They wanted a party to liberate this demon. They may be able 
to retain possession of the device. High, Wednesday, Mt Eden, William.

Guild Security - Anathea is organisong a mission to kill a demon called 
Caine. The party is mostly full but they require a mage who is good with 
the weather. Services fee is to be negotiated. Medium, Avondale, Andrew.

Awards

1) Bravest Adventurer
Jacinthe - Volunteered to spy on the movements of zomblies in Cottingley. 
Returned slightly altered but intact with the discovery that there was a 
hostile wiccan present.

Sir Christopher - while the party was being attacked by demons and assorted 
imps, Sir Christopher stood in the room and challenged the toughest demon 
to a personal duel.

Hagan - while Sir Christopher is fighting the demon, Hagan decided to 
charge in from behind to help.

Winner - No vote

2) Smartest Adventurer
Brunder - when the party had to collect herbs he made a 'pot golem' to keep 
the herbs in so the party didn't have to carry them all.

Isileth - The party had to be ferried across the river Styx one at a time 
by Charon. Before Hargan's turn, Isileith said something to him and, on the 
trip over, Hargan continually refused to take over the oars of the boat 
every time Charon offered.

Jacinthe - After the 63rd backfire in a high mana zone, told the rest of 
the party not to cast any more spells without explicit permission.

Winner - Brunder

3) Stupidest Adventure
Sara Angelis - While exploring the cellar of Caer Percivel, Sara found 
three beer barrels and rushed over to have a look, and was promptly 
attacked by giant spiders. To make it worse, the contents of the barrels 
were spoiled.

Chris - They were in the abode of a paranoid shaper where everything was 
trapped and warded. To keep the doors opened, he had to sing continuously. 
However he saw an interesting book and went to get it. Since he stopped 
singing all the doors slammed  shut and he discovered the book was warded 
with whitefire.

Brightflare - The party were in flight hovering above a monastery that was 
surrounded by explosive spore plants. They were after some ships which were 
sailing away. So Brightflare decided to get more speed out of the wings by 
'mist skimming' low to the ground. However he was self-immolated at the 
time. All the spores exploded.

Jasmine and Dur -  They were windwalking inside a closed room and opened a 
bag. The bag contained a hurricane that nearly blew them apart.

Keesha - The party were in Hades and were told not to eat or drink 
otherwise they would be bound to the plane. However Keesha experimented in 
binding the ground and part of him died and entered the spirit world. When 
the party tried to leave Keesha discovered he didn't want to go. He took 
another step away and his head exploded.
Loxi - They found the bear they were looking for and discovered it was a 
were bear. Loxi decided to wake it up and ended up being rolled on and 
ripped to shreds.

Winner - Jasmine and Dur

4) Best Death
No nominations were received hence no award.

Other Business
It was decided to continue hiring this hall for the next year.


Meeting Closed





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Subject: [dq] Gods this Sunday ???
From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Ian__Wood_&_Ellen__Hume=A0&_Adara_Wood?=" <adara@ihug.co.nz>
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Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz

Can I safely assume that we will "rest" Michael's lounge this Sunday, and
defer the Meeting until February ??

See you in five weeks,

Ian



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Subject: [dq] Rulebook Questions
From: Keith Smith <phaeton@ihug.co.nz>
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i) With the Binding Earth Ritual, is the Base Chance fixed at 10% i.e. it's 
10% + 0/rank or was the x/rank left off? If there is an x I assume it would 
equal 3.

ii) I'd like to add the following text to the end of the Binding Earth 
Ritual. 'and it cannot be moved through by any magical means, (Wizards 
Eyes, and other magics allowing passage through solid objects).

iii) On page 26, in the table marked Cast Check Modifiers should it be 
clarified that the effects of MA does not apply to Talents or Rituals. I'm 
proposing the text be changed from 'Spell casting' to 'Spell Magic' to 
bring it in line with the earlier definitions and maybe add (not Rituals or 
Talents). This should make this rule more obvious to those unfamiliar with it.

iv) Page 11 - Should the section on Elemental Aspects be re-iterated in the 
Magic Section so that all the general cast chance modifiers are in one place?

v) Fire College Speak to Fire Creatures (page 77) does not have a duration 
listed. Should it have one?

Keith
(phaeton@ihug.co.nz)



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Subject: Re: [dq] Gods this Sunday ???
From: Keith Smith <phaeton@ihug.co.nz>
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>Can I safely assume that we will "rest" Michael's lounge this Sunday, and
>defer the Meeting until February ??

Personally I'd rather we didn't as there are items sitting on the agenda 
that nothing have been done about for a while as we haven't been able to 
raise a quorum.

However, on that subject, I suspect that we would not be able to get a 
quorum anyway as most people on the mailing list have work addresses and 
many firms are on holiday still, which means that the meeting notices won't 
reach everyone. So, I guess the next meeting is in February.

Keith
(phaeton@ihug.co.nz)



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Subject: Re: [dq] Rulebook Questions
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Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz

hi there, please see below

-----Original Message-----
From: Keith Smith <phaeton@ihug.co.nz>
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz <dq@dq.sf.org.nz>
Date: Wednesday, 3 January 2001 21:01
Subject: [dq] Rulebook Questions


>i) With the Binding Earth Ritual, is the Base Chance fixed at 10% i.e. it's
>10% + 0/rank or was the x/rank left off? If there is an x I assume it would
>equal 3.


Good question: Earth has base chance of "10%"; Ice has Q2: "MA + 4 per
rank"; Water has Q1: "MA + 4 per rank";
In general I noticed that rituals specify base chance AND increase per rank,
even when that increase is 3. So we cannot assume the +3 is by default.

>
>ii) I'd like to add the following text to the end of the Binding Earth
>Ritual. 'and it cannot be moved through by any magical means, (Wizards
>Eyes, and other magics allowing passage through solid objects).


This is a rule change, although many GMs play it this way already. Indeed I
was surprised recently when we discovered that eyes could travel through
bound earth. If the gods decide this is a good idea, then perhaps it should
be offiered as an option for binding earth (IE teh adept cannot move or mold
the earth) along with intelligence etc.

>
>iii) On page 26, in the table marked Cast Check Modifiers should it be
>clarified that the effects of MA does not apply to Talents or Rituals. I'm
>proposing the text be changed from 'Spell casting' to 'Spell Magic' to
>bring it in line with the earlier definitions and maybe add (not Rituals or
>Talents). This should make this rule more obvious to those unfamiliar with
it.


Good point - the rules are fairly specific on this in one direction, but not
the other. Can we poll the gods on which way we play this?? I think the
rules could be clearer, and a way to achieve that is to specify the
negatives as well as the positives (IE in this case, add "MA bonus does NOT
apply to rituals and talent magics.") as this stops this kind of question.
Makes the rules a bit longer, but we should buy quality, even if we pay by
quantity.



>
>iv) Page 11 - Should the section on Elemental Aspects be re-iterated in the
>Magic Section so that all the general cast chance modifiers are in one
place?


If this is considered appropriate, then I suggest we add to 7.4, "In
addition to the individual _aspect modifiers and_ College modifiers, ....."

>
>v) Fire College Speak to Fire Creatures (page 77) does not have a duration
>listed. Should it have one?


My version of Book 2 has this spell added, with a duration of 20 minutes
plus 10 per rank for this spell. Lets add this to the rules, and not compare
this with too many other colleges.

>
>Keith
>(phaeton@ihug.co.nz)
>
>
>
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>



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Subject: Re: [dq] Gods this Sunday ???
From: "Andrew Withy (DSL AK)" <AndrewW@datacom.co.nz>
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What is on the agenda which is urgent and relevant?

There are a few areas of work in progress - Namer, Rune, Mind, Ranger, maybe
some others. However, no one has said "here it is, vote it in/out" - we
don't need a meeting for progress reports.

Andrew

-----Original Message-----
From: Keith Smith [mailto:phaeton@ihug.co.nz]
Sent: Thursday, 4 January 2001 11:18 a.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Gods this Sunday ???



>Can I safely assume that we will "rest" Michael's lounge this Sunday, and
>defer the Meeting until February ??

Personally I'd rather we didn't as there are items sitting on the agenda 
that nothing have been done about for a while as we haven't been able to 
raise a quorum.

However, on that subject, I suspect that we would not be able to get a 
quorum anyway as most people on the mailing list have work addresses and 
many firms are on holiday still, which means that the meeting notices won't 
reach everyone. So, I guess the next meeting is in February.

Keith
(phaeton@ihug.co.nz)



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From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz  Thu Jan  4 18:20:15 2001
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Subject: Re: [dq] Rulebook Questions
From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Ian__Wood_&_Ellen__Hume=A0&_Adara_Wood?=" <adara@ihug.co.nz>
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Dear all, in an earlier post I may have misunderstood what Keith was asking
and hence the list.

    The issue, as I now understand it <g>, is how to make the rules more
explicit on the point Keith raised....


>> >iii) On page 26, in the table marked Cast Check Modifiers should it be
>> >clarified that the effects of MA does not apply to Talents or Rituals.
I'm
>> >proposing the text be changed from 'Spell casting' to 'Spell Magic' to
>> >bring it in line with the earlier definitions and maybe add (not Rituals
or
>> >Talents). This should make this rule more obvious to those unfamiliar
with
>>it.
>
>
>>Good point - the rules are fairly specific on this in one direction, but
not
>>the other. Can we poll the gods on which way we play this?? I think the
>>rules could be clearer, and a way to achieve that is to specify the
>>negatives as well as the positives (IE in this case, add "MA bonus does
NOT
>>apply to rituals and talent magics.") as this stops this kind of question.
>>Makes the rules a bit longer, but we should buy quality, even if we pay by
>>quantity.

>I remember being told that the MA bonus was only for spells and, at a past
>Gods meeting several years back, that was reinforced as it was felt that
>applying the bonus was 'doubledipping'.

Ian



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From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz  Fri Jan  5 09:10:15 2001
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Subject: Re: [dq] New draft of Namer College available
From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Ian__Wood_&_Ellen__Hume=A0&_Adara_Wood?=" <adara@ihug.co.nz>
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Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz

hi there Martin,

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you and Helen.


I would like to play test your namer college. One of my characters (sir
Wojer) is a non-mage elf with MA 6. I feel he has almost plateaued (?) out
after only a few adventures without resort to one-off abilities (and the few
like that which I have seen appear to be a waste of everyone's time (oh I am
not a mage - I get my +20 magic resistance = I can only cast 5 spells))

So without a major attribute reshuffle, Namer or retirement seem the only
options. Only I did not wish to play a namer until I read your ideas.

So how about it - when will it go to play test ?? next session ? huh??

cheers Ian


-----Original Message-----
From: Martin Dickson <martin.dickson@peace.com>
To: dq-announce@dq.sf.org.nz <dq-announce@dq.sf.org.nz>
Date: Friday, 1 December 2000 10:08
Subject: [dq-announce] New draft of Namer College available


>Hi All,
>
>The 2.02 draft of Namer is (finally) available at my DragonQuest Vault
>site:
>
>http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~apollyon/dq_index.html
>
>Thank you all for the feedback you provided on the previous draft,  the
>major changes in this revision are listed at the bottom of the College,
>the rest of the mods were wording changes for grammar and clarity, etc.
>
>There is still one small section to fix -- the language benefit for
>Namers -- although with the changes to the Language skill and the
>dropping of similar benefits for Philosophers, it may be more
>appropriate to lose the benefit altogether.  What do other people think?
>
>Also available is a slightly altered draft of the Counterspells
>document.  Neither True Names nor Auras has yet been altered.
>
>Cheers,
>Martin
>
>--
>
> _/_/  Peace Software New Zealand Ltd   Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com
>_/     Martin Dickson                   Fax  : +64-9-373-0401
>       Analyst                          Phone: +64-9-373-0400
>
>
>
>
>-- to unsubscribe see http://www kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html --
>



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Subject: [dq] GMs for Aquila, Aladar
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Hi there,

Can you advise me who is running/providing oversight for the areas of Aquila
and Aladar ??

I wish to see about a canal....and a chateau or two....

cheers Ian



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Hi there,

Can you advise me who is running/providing oversight for the areas of Aquila
and Aladar ??

I wish to see about a canal....and a chateau or two....

cheers Ian



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Subject: [dq] DQ: GM Tools / Armies
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An idea I came up with for using lots of army plebs vs 'adventurer' 
fighters, that I thought was worth sharing.

Close Formation Fighting
Description: For sword and shield by a group of fighters trained to work 
in unison.  Designed to be used by armies where low level fighters train 
together for months and have identical equipment and ranks.
1) Allows shield defence bonus to apply to figures immediately flanking 
bearer (so a figure may benefit from the shield defence of up three 
people).
2) Allows reserve fighter to pull back a  stunned or injured  figure and 
replace them in the front row.

Specifics:
Fighters must keep in a line and shuffle to remain in adjacent hexes.  The 
whole line can shuffle sideways a hex without specific orders etc. They 
all have exactly the same initiative, which is the lowest initiative in 
the group -1. 

Each hex contains 2 figures, one front line fighter and their reserve (*). 
 
Front Line: The front line figure's defence benefits from the close 
formation and from their shield mates.  Specifically a figure's defence 
includes the shield defence bonus from their own shield and the shield of 
the front line fighters in the adjacent flanking hexes in the formation (I 
use the shield bonus for ease of calculation).
Reserves: The reserve takes no offensive actions but manoeuvres to keep 
the line tight and to replace incapacitated front line fighters.  They can 
temporarily move into a hole in the line until the line next shuffles, and 
when the line shuffles they can drop back even if technically engaged (or 
the fighter shuffling into the hex can move back into the reserve 
position). 
They can pull a stunned or injured front line fighter back a pace and 
replace them.  This later requires no action from the front line fighter 
but it takes a pulse. 

* For very small entities (eg. goblins) I was using 3 figures per hex, 2 
front line and one reserve.

In the interests of more fun and mayhem for GM's, Rosemary
--=_alternative 000E1987CC2569D8_=
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"


<br><font size=3 face="sans-serif">An idea I came up with for using lots of army plebs vs 'adventurer' fighters, that I thought was worth sharing.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3 face="sans-serif">Close Formation Fighting</font>
<br><font size=3 face="sans-serif">Description: For sword and shield by a group of fighters trained to work in unison. &nbsp;Designed to be used by armies where low level fighters train together for months and have identical equipment and ranks.</font>
<br><font size=3 face="sans-serif">1) Allows shield defence bonus to apply to figures immediately flanking bearer (so a figure may benefit from the shield defence of up three people).</font>
<br><font size=3 face="sans-serif">2) Allows reserve fighter to pull back a &nbsp;stunned or injured &nbsp;figure and replace them in the front row.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3 face="sans-serif">Specifics:</font>
<br><font size=3 face="sans-serif">Fighters must keep in a line and shuffle to remain in adjacent hexes. &nbsp;The whole line can shuffle sideways a hex without specific orders etc. They all have exactly the same initiative, which is the lowest initiative in the group -1. </font>
<br>
<br><font size=3 face="sans-serif">Each hex contains 2 figures, one front line fighter and their reserve (*). &nbsp; </font>
<br><font size=3 face="sans-serif">Front Line: The front line figure's defence benefits from the close formation and from their shield mates. &nbsp;Specifically a figure's defence includes the shield defence bonus from their own shield and the shield of the front line fighters in the adjacent flanking hexes in the formation (I use the shield bonus for ease of calculation).</font>
<br><font size=3 face="sans-serif">Reserves: The reserve takes no offensive actions but manoeuvres to keep the line tight and to replace incapacitated front line fighters. &nbsp;They can temporarily move into a hole in the line until the line next shuffles, and when the line shuffles they can drop back even if technically engaged (or the fighter shuffling into the hex can move back into the reserve position). </font>
<br><font size=3 face="sans-serif">They can pull a stunned or injured front line fighter back a pace and replace them. &nbsp;This later requires no action from the front line fighter but it takes a pulse. &nbsp;</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">* For very small entities (eg. goblins) I was using 3 figures per hex, 2 front line and one reserve.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">In the interests of more fun and mayhem for GM's, Rosemary</font>
--=_alternative 000E1987CC2569D8_=--


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Subject: Re: [dq] DQ: GM Tools / Armies
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  Rosemary said

  An idea I came up with for using lots of army plebs vs 'adventurer' =
fighters, that I thought was worth sharing.=20

  Close Formation Fighting=20
  Description: For sword and shield by a group of fighters trained to =
work in unison.  Designed to be used by armies where low level fighters =
train together for months and have identical equipment and ranks.=20
  1) Allows shield defence bonus to apply to figures immediately =
flanking bearer (so a figure may benefit from the shield defence of up =
three people).=20
  2) Allows reserve fighter to pull back a  stunned or injured  figure =
and replace them in the front row.=20

  Specifics:=20
  Fighters must keep in a line and shuffle to remain in adjacent hexes.  =
The whole line can shuffle sideways a hex without specific orders etc. =
They all have exactly the same initiative, which is the lowest =
initiative in the group -1.=20

  Each hex contains 2 figures, one front line fighter and their reserve =
(*).  =20
  Front Line: The front line figure's defence benefits from the close =
formation and from their shield mates.  Specifically a figure's defence =
includes the shield defence bonus from their own shield and the shield =
of the front line fighters in the adjacent flanking hexes in the =
formation (I use the shield bonus for ease of calculation).=20
  Reserves: The reserve takes no offensive actions but manoeuvres to =
keep the line tight and to replace incapacitated front line fighters.  =
They can temporarily move into a hole in the line until the line next =
shuffles, and when the line shuffles they can drop back even if =
technically engaged (or the fighter shuffling into the hex can move back =
into the reserve position).=20
  They can pull a stunned or injured front line fighter back a pace and =
replace them.  This later requires no action from the front line fighter =
but it takes a pulse.  =20

  * For very small entities (eg. goblins) I was using 3 figures per hex, =
2 front line and one reserve.=20

  In the interests of more fun and mayhem for GM's, Rosemary

  William replied

  I am dubious. While the whole 'shield wall' thing appeals it comes up =
short in that it penalises adventurer fighters who have a pretty dull =
time of it anyway. A hero should be able to cut their way through the =
plebes rather than just holding the line patiently waiting for the mage =
to fry them. This happens enough as it is.=20

  In the interests of heroic endeavour :.-)

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
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<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Rosemary said</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><BR><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D3>An idea I came up with for =
using lots of=20
  army plebs vs 'adventurer' fighters, that I thought was worth =
sharing.</FONT>=20
  <BR><BR><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D3>Close Formation =
Fighting</FONT> <BR><FONT=20
  face=3Dsans-serif size=3D3>Description: For sword and shield by a =
group of=20
  fighters trained to work in unison. &nbsp;Designed to be used by =
armies where=20
  low level fighters train together for months and have identical =
equipment and=20
  ranks.</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D3>1) Allows shield =
defence bonus=20
  to apply to figures immediately flanking bearer (so a figure may =
benefit from=20
  the shield defence of up three people).</FONT> <BR><FONT =
face=3Dsans-serif=20
  size=3D3>2) Allows reserve fighter to pull back a &nbsp;stunned or =
injured=20
  &nbsp;figure and replace them in the front row.</FONT> <BR><BR><FONT=20
  face=3Dsans-serif size=3D3>Specifics:</FONT> <BR><FONT =
face=3Dsans-serif=20
  size=3D3>Fighters must keep in a line and shuffle to remain in =
adjacent hexes.=20
  &nbsp;The whole line can shuffle sideways a hex without specific =
orders etc.=20
  They all have exactly the same initiative, which is the lowest =
initiative in=20
  the group -1. </FONT><BR><BR><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D3>Each hex =
contains 2=20
  figures, one front line fighter and their reserve (*). &nbsp; =
</FONT><BR><FONT=20
  face=3Dsans-serif size=3D3>Front Line: The front line figure's defence =
benefits=20
  from the close formation and from their shield mates. =
&nbsp;Specifically a=20
  figure's defence includes the shield defence bonus from their own =
shield and=20
  the shield of the front line fighters in the adjacent flanking hexes =
in the=20
  formation (I use the shield bonus for ease of calculation).</FONT> =
<BR><FONT=20
  face=3Dsans-serif size=3D3>Reserves: The reserve takes no offensive =
actions but=20
  manoeuvres to keep the line tight and to replace incapacitated front =
line=20
  fighters. &nbsp;They can temporarily move into a hole in the line =
until the=20
  line next shuffles, and when the line shuffles they can drop back even =
if=20
  technically engaged (or the fighter shuffling into the hex can move =
back into=20
  the reserve position). </FONT><BR><FONT face=3Dsans-serif =
size=3D3>They can pull a=20
  stunned or injured front line fighter back a pace and replace them. =
&nbsp;This=20
  later requires no action from the front line fighter but it takes a =
pulse.=20
  &nbsp;</FONT> <BR><BR><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D2>* For very =
small entities=20
  (eg. goblins) I was using 3 figures per hex, 2 front line and one=20
  reserve.</FONT> <BR><BR><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D2>In the =
interests of more=20
  fun and mayhem for GM's, Rosemary</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2>William replied</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3D"" size=3D2>I am dubious. While the whole 'shield =
wall' thing=20
  appeals it comes up short in that it penalises adventurer fighters who =
have a=20
  pretty&nbsp;dull time of it anyway. A hero should be able to cut their =
way=20
  through&nbsp;the plebes rather than just holding the line patiently =
waiting=20
  for the mage to fry them. This happens enough as it is. </FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2>In the interests of heroic endeavour=20
:.-)</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C0817F.2614C920--



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Subject: Re: [dq] DQ: GM Tools / Armies
From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Ian__Wood_&_Ellen__Hume=A0&_Adara_Wood?=" <adara@ihug.co.nz>
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ah, but William, once you have ideas for unit formation tactics, then =
you have guidelines for how to treat them once they have broken =
formation.

And the best way to break a formation is, well, to break the [components =
of the] formation (one at a time if need be with something big and =
heavy). And the bset people to do that are those that not only take down =
troops, but also disrupt the ability of the troops to manoeuvre (by =
standing in the way - not something your average mage does a lot of).

AND, now our swaggering hero is able to dispatch twice (or even thrice) =
as many each pulse, and they keep steeping up for more !!! "Bloody =
brilliant," says the average orc (fairly lazy and likes its food to walk =
to it).

Ian

PS - I am just reading a new analysis of some Napoleonic battles. It =
says that the effectiveness of cannon was overrated by 10 to 100 times =
in terms of injuries and death. Its most potent thing was against =
morale, as no one likes to look at the business end of a bloody big gun! =
Cannon fire may have accounted for 20 to 25% of casualties in those =
battles with lots of cannon, but were most likely to be below 10% =
(muskets =3D >80%, swords 5 to 10% and bayonets <5%). Cannons apparently =
accounted for less than 10% of injuries in the American Civil War, =
possibly because rifles were more dangerous than muskets. The point to =
all this is that blast mages should not take out large chucks of a good =
army. Most will miss - put a concentration check in there for being =
swarmed by people who want to kill you (several times if possible)

PPS - Rosemary =3D I assume you can get two pony mounted hobbits in a =
hex ?

cheers...
    -----Original Message-----
    From: Dworkin <dworkin@ihug.co.nz>
    To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz <dq@dq.sf.org.nz>
    Date: Thursday, 18 January 2001 18:57
    Subject: Re: [dq] DQ: GM Tools / Armies
   =20
   =20
   =20
        Rosemary said
       =20
        <snip>
       =20
        * For very small entities (eg. goblins) I was using 3 figures =
per hex, 2 front line and one reserve.=20
       =20
        In the interests of more fun and mayhem for GM's, Rosemary
       =20
        William replied
       =20
        I am dubious. While the whole 'shield wall' thing appeals it =
comes up short in that it penalises adventurer fighters who have a =
pretty dull time of it anyway. A hero should be able to cut their way =
through the plebes rather than just holding the line patiently waiting =
for the mage to fry them. This happens enough as it is.=20
       =20
        In the interests of heroic endeavour :.-)

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<STYLE></STYLE>

</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>ah, but William, once you have ideas for unit =
formation=20
tactics, then you have guidelines for how to treat them once they have =
broken=20
formation.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>And the best way to break a formation is, well, to =
break the=20
[components of the] formation (one at a time if need be with something =
big and=20
heavy). And the bset people to do that are those that not only take down =
troops,=20
but also disrupt the ability of the troops to manoeuvre (by standing in =
the way=20
- not something your average mage does a lot of).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>AND, now our swaggering hero is able =
to dispatch=20
twice (or even thrice) as many each pulse, and they keep steeping up for =
more=20
!!! &quot;Bloody brilliant,&quot; says the average orc (fairly lazy and =
likes=20
its food to walk to it).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Ian</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>PS - I am just reading a new analysis of some =
Napoleonic=20
battles. It says that the effectiveness of cannon was overrated by 10 to =
100=20
times in terms of injuries and death. Its most potent thing was against =
morale,=20
as no one likes to look at the business end of a bloody big gun! Cannon =
fire may=20
have accounted for 20 to 25% of casualties in those battles with lots of =
cannon,=20
but were most likely to be below 10% (muskets =3D &gt;80%, swords 5 to =
10% and=20
bayonets &lt;5%). Cannons apparently accounted for less than 10% of =
injuries in=20
the American Civil War, possibly because rifles were more dangerous than =

muskets. The point to all this is that blast mages should not take out =
large=20
chucks of a good army. Most will miss - put a concentration check in =
there for=20
being swarmed by people who want to kill you (several times if=20
possible)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>PPS - Rosemary =3D I assume you can =
get two pony=20
mounted hobbits in a hex ?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>cheers...</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original =
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
    </B>Dworkin &lt;<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:dworkin@ihug.co.nz">dworkin@ihug.co.nz</A>&gt;<BR><B>To: =
</B><A=20
    href=3D"mailto:dq@dq.sf.org.nz">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</A> &lt;<A=20
    href=3D"mailto:dq@dq.sf.org.nz">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</A>&gt;<BR><B>Date:=20
    </B>Thursday, 18 January 2001 18:57<BR><B>Subject: </B>Re: [dq] DQ: =
GM Tools=20
    / Armies<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <BLOCKQUOTE=20
    style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
        <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Rosemary said</FONT></DIV>
        <DIV><BR><FONT face=3Dsans-serif =
size=3D3>&lt;snip&gt;</FONT></DIV>
        <DIV><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D3></FONT><BR><FONT =
face=3Dsans-serif=20
        size=3D2>* For very small entities (eg. goblins) I was using 3 =
figures per=20
        hex, 2 front line and one reserve.</FONT> <BR><BR><FONT =
face=3Dsans-serif=20
        size=3D2>In the interests of more fun and mayhem for GM's,=20
        Rosemary</FONT></DIV>
        <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
        <DIV><FONT size=3D2>William replied</FONT></DIV>
        <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
        <DIV><FONT face=3D"" size=3D2>I am dubious. While the whole =
'shield wall'=20
        thing appeals it comes up short in that it penalises adventurer =
fighters=20
        who have a pretty dull time of it anyway. A hero should be able =
to cut=20
        their way through the plebes rather than just holding the line =
patiently=20
        waiting for the mage to fry them. This happens enough as it is.=20
        </FONT></DIV>
        <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
        <DIV><FONT size=3D2>In the interests of heroic endeavour=20
    :.-)</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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Ian wrote
PPS - Rosemary = I assume you can get two pony mounted hobbits in a hex ?

Nah - everybody knows pony mounted troups are light skirmishers : - >

Rosemary
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<br><font size=2 face="Times New Roman">Ian wrote</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Times New Roman">PPS - Rosemary = I assume you can get two pony mounted hobbits in a hex ?</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Nah - everybody knows pony mounted troups are light skirmishers : - &gt;</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Rosemary</font>
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From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz  Fri Jan 19 09:47:32 2001
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Subject: Re: [dq] DQ: GM Tools / Armies
From: "Errol Cavit" <errolgc@hotmail.com>
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To break a sheild wall, a 'combined arms' approach would work well. The Mil 
Sci's co-ordinate things so the fighters hit the the wall just after the 
mages have all smacked the same hex. The target will hopefully be out of 
fatigue, so I would imagine a sheild rush would disrupt things (extra damage 
for being crushed between your reserve line and the crazy orc charging 
you??). Your fighter(s) is then in the wall, enjoying themselves, showing 
off multi-hex strike, making the mages concentrate on keeping the little 
sods off your back....

Forces the party act as a group, rather than just doing their own thing.

Errol Cavit
(who reads [dq] on IanW's account, but is posting on his hotmail to save 
confusion)

PS
I don't think that cannon are a good analogy for the damage done by blast 
mages. Cannon balls will take out of the battle anyone in the straight line 
that they fire along. Unless the targets are in a deep formation (relative 
to the cannon), you can only get a maximum couple of blokes per ball, 
assuming you hit anything. Anything hit is very unlikely to do any more 
fighting (ever - those surgeons got losts of practice at amputations). The 
main benefit is disruption of formations.
I can't think of any magic that works like this (I could of course be 
wrong). You can generally hurt or (at higher ranks) disable one entity 
(subject to the mage not being scared by the gobbos who just appeared on 
their flank). Alternatively you can hurt several people, either by an area 
effect (so any close formation is a good target), or by using multi-entity 
targeting spells.
Although the analogy doesn't hold for the way damage is done, I'm sure that 
the average pikeman is paranoid ('unreasonably scared', whatever) about 
magic vs physical attacks. Not being able to do anything back would be a 
major driver in this (shields counter arrows, for instance).
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Subject: Re: [dq] DQ: GM Tools / Armies
From: Stephen Martin <stephenm@qed.co.nz>
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Reasonable level mages will take out large chunks of armies unless those
armies have some form of magical protection.  If for some insane reason an
army went up against a mage then close formation would be suicidal.  They
should disperse to reduce the numbers that can be taken out by area effect
spells, they should have constant volleys of arrows raining down on the mage
to keep his head down and maybe take him out, and most importantly they
should have lots of troops with large amounts of cold iron charging up and
leaping into close with the mage.
Of course this does depend a little on the mage, some colleges are not that
effective against armies.
NB This is probably the reason nobody seriously developed cannons in Alusia.
Compared to magic they are so expensive, troublesome and inaccurate.  Mages
are only expensive and troublesome )).

The stacked defence of shield walls is a nice idea, it gives a rules benefit
to formation fighting.  
However I don't like the 2 in one hex and switching places.  Too crowded,
too much possibility of tripping over each other or getting the timing wrong
and screwing up the whole thing, not enough room to get a decent swing with
your weapon.  Having a reserve line is fine but they should be in the hex
behind and move into position as a normal combat action.  And there would
probably be one reserve per 2 front liners to allow some space for
maneuvering.

The combat formation I'd like to see is the font rank with Tower Shields and
Short Swords, second rank with Pikes, third rank are reserves and
skirmishers ready to deal with any break in the line (and probably the
Officers/Mil Sci/Crack Troops), and fourth rank are the archers.
At range the archers volley fire while the line slowly advances.
At melee range the front rank evades (Def = 30% for their own shield + 60%
for the shields of their neighbors + 30% for Evading = 120% + Agility), the
second rank attacks with their pikes (extended range), the third rank holds
their actions looking for signs of trouble, and the archers pick off
stragglers.
Of course the way the rules work the front rank would be better off using
Estocs, Rapiers, Daggers, Unarmed or a Main Gauche over a Short Sword as
they go to much higher ranks and thus give more defence, are better at
keeping people out of close, and make the ripostes more likely.  It just
doesn't feel right though (.

Also I see no reason why an appropriately skilled group of adventurers
couldn't form a shield wall with the overlapping shield defence.  It might
even be effective if they can keep from being flanked.

Cheers, Stephen.

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Ian  Wood & Ellen  Hume & Adara Wood [SMTP:adara@ihug.co.nz]
> Sent:	Thursday, 18 January 2001 21:54
> 
> dangerous than muskets. The point to all this is that blast mages should
> not take out large chucks of a good army. Most will miss - put a
> concentration check in there for being swarmed by people who want to kill
> you (several times if possible)
>  
> 


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Subject: Re: [dq] DQ: GM Tools / Armies
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Stephen Wrote
The stacked defence of shield walls is a nice idea, it gives a rules 
benefit
to formation fighting. 
However I don't like the 2 in one hex and switching places.  Too crowded,
too much possibility of tripping over each other or getting the timing 
wrong
and screwing up the whole thing, not enough room to get a decent swing 
with
your weapon.  Having a reserve line is fine but they should be in the hex
behind and move into position as a normal combat action.  And there would
probably be one reserve per 2 front liners to allow some space for
maneuvering.

That's why it takes months and months of training together to make it 
work.  Have you ever seen brand new marching recruits - it's totally 
chaotic.

Anyway - this is just a concept I thought other GM's might find useful

Rose
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<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">Stephen Wrote</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">The stacked defence of shield walls is a nice idea, it gives a rules benefit<br>
to formation fighting. &nbsp;<br>
However I don't like the 2 in one hex and switching places. &nbsp;Too crowded,<br>
too much possibility of tripping over each other or getting the timing wrong<br>
and screwing up the whole thing, not enough room to get a decent swing with<br>
your weapon. &nbsp;Having a reserve line is fine but they should be in the hex<br>
behind and move into position as a normal combat action. &nbsp;And there would<br>
probably be one reserve per 2 front liners to allow some space for<br>
maneuvering.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">That's why it takes months and months of training together to make it work. &nbsp;Have you ever seen brand new marching recruits - it's totally chaotic.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Anyway - this is just a concept I thought other GM's might find useful</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Rose</font>
--=_alternative 007522E0CC2569D8_=--


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Subject: Re: [dq] DQ: GM Tools / Armies
From: "Andrew Withy (DSL AK)" <AndrewW@datacom.co.nz>
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Evading wouldn't work with a shield wall. This wouldn't give the
130%+defence that Stephen suggests, which would make an army silly. Evading
is how a single skirmisher gets extra defence, shield wall and defence
withdrawal are how blocks get extra defence.

The 2 in one hex doesn't lead to tripping over unless they try to behave
like skirmishers. Getting historical for a second, I believe that the Romans
had 3 Gladius & Tower Shield lads for each two Celts with blue woad & long
sword, width-ways, and had a second layer that could attack (less
effectively) with pilum or spear. The close formation was at least twice as
dense as Celts, who fight like adventurers. In close quarters, if the Celts
got packed in, they were butchered by the Romans because they couldn't
adjust.

Close Formation don't need pikes for second rank - I believe pike blocks
used to have 3-4 layers of pike heads between them and the enemy. This is
because they are denser than 1/hex. A Spear works fine from the back of the
hex.

The balancing factor is that each individual soldier is not skilled and they
don't have the stats to use the weapons in skirmish style (eg, PS 14, MD 15
for spear). They are well-organised chaff.

The main advantage to the troops in Rosemary's suggestion (having seen it in
play) is not just the number of attacks, but that a well-organised force can
pin down a more skilled opponent by always having fresh troops, rather than
stunned targets.

Its also really simple to GM.

Andrew
-----Original Message-----
From: Stephen Martin [mailto:stephenm@qed.co.nz]
Sent: Friday, 19 January 2001 9:48 a.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] DQ: GM Tools / Armies


Reasonable level mages will take out large chunks of armies unless those
armies have some form of magical protection.  If for some insane reason an
army went up against a mage then close formation would be suicidal.  They
should disperse to reduce the numbers that can be taken out by area effect
spells, they should have constant volleys of arrows raining down on the mage
to keep his head down and maybe take him out, and most importantly they
should have lots of troops with large amounts of cold iron charging up and
leaping into close with the mage.
Of course this does depend a little on the mage, some colleges are not that
effective against armies.
NB This is probably the reason nobody seriously developed cannons in Alusia.
Compared to magic they are so expensive, troublesome and inaccurate.  Mages
are only expensive and troublesome )).

The stacked defence of shield walls is a nice idea, it gives a rules benefit
to formation fighting.  
However I don't like the 2 in one hex and switching places.  Too crowded,
too much possibility of tripping over each other or getting the timing wrong
and screwing up the whole thing, not enough room to get a decent swing with
your weapon.  Having a reserve line is fine but they should be in the hex
behind and move into position as a normal combat action.  And there would
probably be one reserve per 2 front liners to allow some space for
maneuvering.

The combat formation I'd like to see is the font rank with Tower Shields and
Short Swords, second rank with Pikes, third rank are reserves and
skirmishers ready to deal with any break in the line (and probably the
Officers/Mil Sci/Crack Troops), and fourth rank are the archers.
At range the archers volley fire while the line slowly advances.
At melee range the front rank evades (Def = 30% for their own shield + 60%
for the shields of their neighbors + 30% for Evading = 120% + Agility), the
second rank attacks with their pikes (extended range), the third rank holds
their actions looking for signs of trouble, and the archers pick off
stragglers.
Of course the way the rules work the front rank would be better off using
Estocs, Rapiers, Daggers, Unarmed or a Main Gauche over a Short Sword as
they go to much higher ranks and thus give more defence, are better at
keeping people out of close, and make the ripostes more likely.  It just
doesn't feel right though (.

Also I see no reason why an appropriately skilled group of adventurers
couldn't form a shield wall with the overlapping shield defence.  It might
even be effective if they can keep from being flanked.

Cheers, Stephen.

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Ian  Wood & Ellen  Hume & Adara Wood [SMTP:adara@ihug.co.nz]
> Sent:	Thursday, 18 January 2001 21:54
> 
> dangerous than muskets. The point to all this is that blast mages should
> not take out large chucks of a good army. Most will miss - put a
> concentration check in there for being swarmed by people who want to kill
> you (several times if possible)
>  
> 


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Subject: Re: [dq] DQ: GM Tools / Armies
From: Martin Dickson <martin.dickson@peace.com>
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Hi Rosemary,

Don't know if it matters or not... but one probably gains the advantage
of two rather than three shields in a wall... one's own and that of the
chap to the right (assuming right handed fighters).  If the fellow to
the left tries to help he'll:  a) block his own weapon, and b) open up
his left shoulder and back to attack.

(Aside: I vaguely recall that some wargames rules cover whether fire is
coming in from the left or right flank because the left flank is better
shielded).

It would also give the Legion with the tower shields about 75% ((30
x2)+15) def per man rather than the 105% ((30x3)+15) they'd get for
three shields.  (Assuming the other side are also a Tower & Short Sword
Legion, and assuming good training but no fancy stuff,  their best SC is
about 84% (45+(6x4)+15).

Regards,
Martin

--

 _/_/  Peace Software New Zealand Ltd   Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com
_/     Martin Dickson                   Fax  : +64-9-373-0401
       Analyst                          Phone: +64-9-373-0400




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Subject: Re: [dq] DQ: GM Tools / Armies
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  ah, but William, once you have ideas for unit formation tactics, then =
you have guidelines for how to treat them once they have broken =
formation.
  =20

  And the best way to break a formation is, well, to break the =
[components of the] formation (one at a time if need be with something =
big and heavy). And the bset people to do that are those that not only =
take down troops, but also disrupt the ability of the troops to =
manoeuvre (by standing in the way - not something your average mage does =
a lot of).
  =20
  AND, now our swaggering hero is able to dispatch twice (or even =
thrice) as many each pulse, and they keep steeping up for more !!! =
"Bloody brilliant," says the average orc (fairly lazy and likes its food =
to walk to it).
  =20
  Ian
  =20
  William's reply

  Rules to cover such things would be all well and good for a wargame =
but we must face the cold, hard truth that most players cannot work out =
thier TMR, defence, initiative and have the tatical capabilities of a =
moldy lemon.

  Applying 'reality' to a combat system where it takes one minute to =
cover 100 yards (60 hexes) is doomed to failure.=20

   I want characters to be able to be heroes and the rules should favour =
heroic endevour and not recreations of medival battles. If that is your =
cup of hot water I suggest the SCA or a metal weapons club.

   I am aware of what the 'omni-weapons' (battleaxe, hand+half, glaive) =
would do to such formations. Please, lets make other weapon choices even =
more redundant.

  I also realised that 'pleb' means different things and that to some it =
means Rk4 in optimal weapons granting the 100 or so defence. This is why =
a fighter even with a good weapon will have a dull time of it.

  "Oh, a 32, I guess I miss the guardsman."

  What a screamingly fun time. Lets convince PCs that unless they are =
totally min-maxed for combat that they are complete goobers whose figure =
only contributes in keeping the hex grid down.

  William

------=_NextPart_000_005E_01C0826F.561D10A0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 =
Transitional//EN">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2314.1000" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2>ah, but William, once you have ideas for unit =
formation=20
  tactics, then you have guidelines for how to treat them once they have =
broken=20
  formation.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2>And the best way to break a formation is, well, to =
break the=20
  [components of the] formation (one at a time if need be with something =
big and=20
  heavy). And the bset people to do that are those that not only take =
down=20
  troops, but also disrupt the ability of the troops to manoeuvre (by =
standing=20
  in the way - not something your average mage does a lot =
of).</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>AND, now our swaggering hero is =
able to=20
  dispatch twice (or even thrice) as many each pulse, and they keep =
steeping up=20
  for more !!! "Bloody brilliant," says the average orc (fairly lazy and =
likes=20
  its food to walk to it).</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Ian</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2>William's reply</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Rules to cover such things would be all well and =
good for a=20
  wargame but we must face the cold, hard truth that most players cannot =
work=20
  out thier TMR, defence, initiative and have the tatical capabilities =
of a=20
  moldy lemon.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Applying 'reality' to a combat system where it =
takes one=20
  minute to cover 100 yards (60 hexes) is doomed to failure. =
</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2>&nbsp;I want characters to be able to be heroes =
and the=20
  rules should favour heroic endevour and not recreations of medival =
battles. If=20
  that is your cup of hot water I suggest the SCA or a metal weapons=20
  club.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2>&nbsp;I am aware of what the 'omni-weapons' =
(battleaxe,=20
  hand+half, glaive) would do to such formations. Please, lets make =
other weapon=20
  choices&nbsp;even more redundant.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2>I also realised that 'pleb' means different things =
and that=20
  to some it means Rk4 in optimal weapons granting the 100 or so =
defence. This=20
  is why a fighter even with a good weapon will have a dull time of=20
  it.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2>"Oh, a 32,&nbsp;I guess I miss the =
guardsman."</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2>What a screamingly fun time. Lets convince PCs =
that unless=20
  they are totally min-maxed for combat that they are complete goobers =
whose=20
  figure only contributes&nbsp;in keeping the hex grid =
down.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2>William</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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Subject: [dq] Celestial Shadow Query
From: "Errol Cavit" <errolgc@hotmail.com>
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Hi all

While I was away overseas, there were changes made to the Celestial College 
modifiers, and the way the Light and Dark spells work. Reading the new 
write-ups carefully (as opposed to quickly) for the first time, I would like 
to seek confirmation that my understanding of the situation is correct.

My character is a normal (for the purposes of the question) Celestial Shadow 
mage. Relevant quotes from the college write-up are:

19.3 Lighting condition modifiers
... Magical forms of the elements (light and dark) may at best neutralize 
any penalties suffered due to the natural elements. ...
Shadow Weavers must be within a shadow that has a defined edge within the 
vicinity (...), and Star mages must be in direct light from point sources, 
otherwise the lighting condition modifier is -25%.

19.5
Darkness (G-3)
....
It will not aid in providing bonuses for casting purposes, though it will 
neutralize penalties due to natural light, to a maximum of 5% + 1%/rank. The 
volume counts as direct shadow for Star & Shadow mages.
...

19.9 Celestial Lighting Modifier Table
various mods based on light level, ranging from -20 to +25 for Shadow, plus 
'cannot cast'.

My understanding:
Being in a magical darkness means that I am in a shadow, so the -25% from 
19.3 does not apply. Calculate the Lighting condition modifier as

Table entry for amount of natural light
plus
5% + 1% per rank

The end result is reduced to 0 if it is positive.

Examples and possible special situation:
Simple example:
Sunny day in the middle of flat grassland, the rest of the party are too 
lazy or busy to hold up a cloak to cast a shadow for you. With a Rk10 
darkness (cast at 55% BC btw, +30 for rank, -25 because you aren't in a 
shadow), later spells are (-10 + (5+10)) = +5%, tough luck, it's 0%

Slightly trickier example:
In the middle of a chamber underground, lit by torches around all the walls, 
but not in a shadow (having just been magically whisked here by yourself, 
rest of the party are slacking off as  per usual).
Using the Rk 10  darkness again, its (+10 + (5+10)) = +25%, tough luck, it's 
0%.
The kinder interpretation is to leave it at the natural modifier of 10%, 
with the darkness counting as a shadow. This doesn't seem reasonable to me, 
you are using the magic to make the shadow in order to avoid the -25%, so 
you are limited to 0% end result.

Tricky example:
Due entirely to your own planning and cunning, you are set up perfectly. 
With a tree between you and the party's campfire, you are about to let one 
of the attacking fools have it with a backfire. A combat spell with a +25% 
bonus, it doesn't happen that often. Then some jerk puts a rank 19 darkness 
down on your location. Thanks to your Night Vision, you can still see the 
target in the 2% light level.

Do you still have the +25% due to natural light level (and in a natural 
shadow), or are you stuck with the -10% from the magic light level + (5+19) 
for rank, giving 0%?

Explanation of any faults in the above logic or understanding gratefully 
received.

Cheers
Errol

PS none of the above comments should be taken as criticisms of the actions 
(or inactions) of my current party - especially Amelia, who is fixing my 
"massive chest wound" while we are at the bottom of an 80' pit.
_________________________________________________________________________
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From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz  Mon Jan 22 08:27:34 2001
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Subject: Re: [dq] Celestial Shadow Query
From: "Andrew Withy (DSL AK)" <AndrewW@datacom.co.nz>
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My understanding is:
1) +0%
2) +0%
3) -10%. The natural light does not create a penalty for the darkness to
alleviate, the darkness creates the penalty, and can't alleviate itself.

If the natural circumstances don't give you a bonus, you can only neutralise
penalties with light/darkness. However, you can receive penalties due to
light/darkness.

Andrew
-----Original Message-----
From: Errol Cavit [mailto:errolgc@hotmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, 20 January 2001 11:26 p.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: [dq] Celestial Shadow Query


Hi all

While I was away overseas, there were changes made to the Celestial College 
modifiers, and the way the Light and Dark spells work. Reading the new 
write-ups carefully (as opposed to quickly) for the first time, I would like

to seek confirmation that my understanding of the situation is correct.

My character is a normal (for the purposes of the question) Celestial Shadow

mage. Relevant quotes from the college write-up are:

19.3 Lighting condition modifiers
... Magical forms of the elements (light and dark) may at best neutralize 
any penalties suffered due to the natural elements. ...
Shadow Weavers must be within a shadow that has a defined edge within the 
vicinity (...), and Star mages must be in direct light from point sources, 
otherwise the lighting condition modifier is -25%.

19.5
Darkness (G-3)
....
It will not aid in providing bonuses for casting purposes, though it will 
neutralize penalties due to natural light, to a maximum of 5% + 1%/rank. The

volume counts as direct shadow for Star & Shadow mages.
...

19.9 Celestial Lighting Modifier Table
various mods based on light level, ranging from -20 to +25 for Shadow, plus 
'cannot cast'.

My understanding:
Being in a magical darkness means that I am in a shadow, so the -25% from 
19.3 does not apply. Calculate the Lighting condition modifier as

Table entry for amount of natural light
plus
5% + 1% per rank

The end result is reduced to 0 if it is positive.

Examples and possible special situation:
Simple example:
Sunny day in the middle of flat grassland, the rest of the party are too 
lazy or busy to hold up a cloak to cast a shadow for you. With a Rk10 
darkness (cast at 55% BC btw, +30 for rank, -25 because you aren't in a 
shadow), later spells are (-10 + (5+10)) = +5%, tough luck, it's 0%

Slightly trickier example:
In the middle of a chamber underground, lit by torches around all the walls,

but not in a shadow (having just been magically whisked here by yourself, 
rest of the party are slacking off as  per usual).
Using the Rk 10  darkness again, its (+10 + (5+10)) = +25%, tough luck, it's

0%.
The kinder interpretation is to leave it at the natural modifier of 10%, 
with the darkness counting as a shadow. This doesn't seem reasonable to me, 
you are using the magic to make the shadow in order to avoid the -25%, so 
you are limited to 0% end result.

Tricky example:
Due entirely to your own planning and cunning, you are set up perfectly. 
With a tree between you and the party's campfire, you are about to let one 
of the attacking fools have it with a backfire. A combat spell with a +25% 
bonus, it doesn't happen that often. Then some jerk puts a rank 19 darkness 
down on your location. Thanks to your Night Vision, you can still see the 
target in the 2% light level.

Do you still have the +25% due to natural light level (and in a natural 
shadow), or are you stuck with the -10% from the magic light level + (5+19) 
for rank, giving 0%?

Explanation of any faults in the above logic or understanding gratefully 
received.

Cheers
Errol

PS none of the above comments should be taken as criticisms of the actions 
(or inactions) of my current party - especially Amelia, who is fixing my 
"massive chest wound" while we are at the bottom of an 80' pit.
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.



-- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html --


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Subject: Re: [dq] DQ: GM Tools / Armies
From: "Andrew Withy (DSL AK)" <AndrewW@datacom.co.nz>
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The close-formation tactics are another simple tool for competant GMs who
wish to vary the details of a combat for their party. A GM always has to
balance (or at least be aware of) the party's capabilities. However, as most
fighters I play with or GM have 140-160 strike chance, it is hard to
introduce a challenge to them without (excessive) magic.
 
Could people try to be a little more positive or constructive in their
attitude to other ideas, players & GMs, or keep their opinions to themselves
until they are a little less depressed?
 
And what's a goober?
 
Andrew

 
ah, but William, once you have ideas for unit formation tactics, then you
have guidelines for how to treat them once they have broken formation.
 
 
William's reply
 
Rules to cover such things would be all well and good for a wargame but we
must face the cold, hard truth that most players cannot work out thier TMR,
defence, initiative and have the tatical capabilities of a moldy lemon.
 
Applying 'reality' to a combat system where it takes one minute to cover 100
yards (60 hexes) is doomed to failure. 
 
 I want characters to be able to be heroes and the rules should favour
heroic endevour and not recreations of medival battles. If that is your cup
of hot water I suggest the SCA or a metal weapons club.
 
 I am aware of what the 'omni-weapons' (battleaxe, hand+half, glaive) would
do to such formations. Please, lets make other weapon choices even more
redundant.
 
I also realised that 'pleb' means different things and that to some it means
Rk4 in optimal weapons granting the 100 or so defence. This is why a fighter
even with a good weapon will have a dull time of it.
 
"Oh, a 32, I guess I miss the guardsman."
 
What a screamingly fun time. Lets convince PCs that unless they are totally
min-maxed for combat that they are complete goobers whose figure only
contributes in keeping the hex grid down.
 
William


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<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=152021819-21012001>The 
close-formation tactics&nbsp;are another simple tool for competant GMs who wish 
to vary the details of a combat for their party. A GM always has to balance (or 
at least be aware of) the party's capabilities. However, as most fighters I play 
with or GM have 140-160 strike chance, it is hard to introduce a challenge to 
them without (excessive) magic.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
class=152021819-21012001></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=152021819-21012001>Could 
people try to be a little more positive or constructive in their attitude to 
other ideas, players &amp; GMs, or keep their opinions to themselves until they 
are a little less depressed?</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
class=152021819-21012001></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=152021819-21012001>And 
what's a goober?</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
class=152021819-21012001></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
class=152021819-21012001>Andrew</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <BLOCKQUOTE 
  style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT size=2>ah, but William, once you have ideas for unit formation 
    tactics, then you have guidelines for how to treat them once they have 
    broken formation.</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT size=2>William's reply</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT size=2>Rules to cover such things would be all well and good for 
    a wargame but we must face the cold, hard truth that most players cannot 
    work out thier TMR, defence, initiative and have the tatical capabilities of 
    a moldy lemon.</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT size=2>Applying 'reality' to a combat system where it takes one 
    minute to cover 100 yards (60 hexes) is doomed to failure. </FONT></DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT size=2>&nbsp;I want characters to be able to be heroes and the 
    rules should favour heroic endevour and not recreations of medival battles. 
    If that is your cup of hot water I suggest the SCA or a metal weapons 
    club.</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT size=2>&nbsp;I am aware of what the 'omni-weapons' (battleaxe, 
    hand+half, glaive) would do to such formations. Please, lets make other 
    weapon choices&nbsp;even more redundant.</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT size=2>I also realised that 'pleb' means different things and 
    that to some it means Rk4 in optimal weapons granting the 100 or so defence. 
    This is why a fighter even with a good weapon will have a dull time of 
    it.</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT size=2>"Oh, a 32,&nbsp;I guess I miss the 
guardsman."</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT size=2>What a screamingly fun time. Lets convince PCs that unless 
    they are totally min-maxed for combat that they are complete goobers whose 
    figure only contributes&nbsp;in keeping the hex grid down.</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT size=2>William</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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    While I agree with Andrew that any new tool is useful for running a
game, I cannot help but feel that some tools actually take the game in a
less than useful direction, pretty much in line with William's comments.

    It is handy to have rules that allow a DM to work out mass combat.
On the other hand, role-playing games are not about military conflict
resolution. They're about telling stories.
    We use rules of whatever kind to:
    1) Allow the DM to draw a swift conclusion on what has, or is about
to happen
    2) Provide an open platform that explains the mechanics of a
particular consequence. In other words, rules tell players and DMs how
the world works.
    We also use rules to do these things, which are less than positive.
    1) To allow DMs to deny any responsibility for harm that may befall
a player character. If a pc suffers horribly as a result of poor throw
of the dice, or because the rules of the game, then the DM can say that
they have no responsibility for that harm.
    2) Assiduous attention to rules leads to situations where the player
or the DM can finesse, applying a rule in a way that it was never
intended to cover, but is not explicitly denied by the game.
    3) Most importantly, the more rules there are, the less story there
is. Every time a rule is added to cover a situation, then the excercise
of the game becomes more like a board game, and less like a narrative.
    I suppose it comes down to a choice between which rules you think
are important enough that players and DMs need to know what the world
thinks about them. In my opinion, massed combat is the sort of thing
that is liable to be of at least passing consequence to an adventurer,
however screwed the rest of the system is.
    On the other hand, it seems to me that massed combat would never
have developed in the way that we expect, given that almost any ducal
property and higher is liable to have an air force, completely
invalidating walls, castles and keeps as the preeminent defensive force
for a fantasy roleplaying game, set in what some people laughingly call
the Middle Ages.


"Andrew Withy (DSL AK)" wrote:

> The close-formation tactics are another simple tool for competant GMs
> who wish to vary the details of a combat for their party. A GM always
> has to balance (or at least be aware of) the party's capabilities.
> However, as most fighters I play with or GM have 140-160 strike
> chance, it is hard to introduce a challenge to them without
> (excessive) magic.Could people try to be a little more positive or
> constructive in their attitude to other ideas, players & GMs, or keep
> their opinions to themselves until they are a little less
> depressed?And what's a goober?Andrew
>
>            ah, but William, once you have ideas for unit
>           formation tactics, then you have guidelines for
>           how to treat them once they have broken
>           formation.  William's reply Rules to cover such
>           things would be all well and good for a wargame
>           but we must face the cold, hard truth that most
>           players cannot work out thier TMR, defence,
>           initiative and have the tatical capabilities of a
>           moldy lemon. Applying 'reality' to a combat system
>           where it takes one minute to cover 100 yards (60
>           hexes) is doomed to failure.  I want characters to
>           be able to be heroes and the rules should favour
>           heroic endevour and not recreations of medival
>           battles. If that is your cup of hot water I
>           suggest the SCA or a metal weapons club.  I am
>           aware of what the 'omni-weapons' (battleaxe,
>           hand+half, glaive) would do to such formations.
>           Please, lets make other weapon choices even more
>           redundant. I also realised that 'pleb' means
>           different things and that to some it means Rk4 in
>           optimal weapons granting the 100 or so defence.
>           This is why a fighter even with a good weapon will
>           have a dull time of it. "Oh, a 32, I guess I miss
>           the guardsman." What a screamingly fun time. Lets
>           convince PCs that unless they are totally
>           min-maxed for combat that they are complete
>           goobers whose figure only contributes in keeping
>           the hex grid down. William
>

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&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; While I agree with Andrew that any new tool is useful
for running a game, I cannot help but feel that some tools actually take
the game in a less than useful direction, pretty much in line with William's
comments.
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; It is handy to have rules that allow a DM to work
out mass combat. On the other hand, role-playing games are not about military
conflict resolution. They're about telling stories.
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; We use rules of whatever kind to:
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 1) Allow the DM to draw a swift conclusion on what
has, or is about to happen
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 2) Provide an open platform that explains the mechanics
of a particular consequence. In other words, rules tell players and DMs
how the world works.
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; We also use rules to do these things, which are
less than positive.
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 1) To allow DMs to deny any responsibility for harm
that may befall a player character. If a pc suffers horribly as a result
of poor throw of the dice, or because the rules of the game, then the DM
can say that they have no responsibility for that harm.
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 2) Assiduous attention to rules leads to situations
where the player or the DM can finesse, applying a rule in a way that it
was never intended to cover, but is not explicitly denied by the game.
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 3) Most importantly, the more rules there are, the
less story there is. Every time a rule is added to cover a situation, then
the excercise of the game becomes more like a board game, and less like
a narrative.
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I suppose it comes down to a choice between which
rules you think are important enough that players and DMs need to know
what the world thinks about them. In my opinion, massed combat is the sort
of thing that is liable to be of at least passing consequence to an adventurer,
however screwed the rest of the system is.
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; On the other hand, it seems to me that massed combat
would never have developed in the way that we expect, given that almost
any ducal property and higher is liable to have an air force, completely
invalidating walls, castles and keeps as the preeminent defensive force
for a fantasy roleplaying game, set in what some people laughingly call
the Middle Ages.
<br>&nbsp;
<p>"Andrew Withy (DSL AK)" wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE><style></style>
<span class=152021819-21012001><font face="Arial"><font color="#0000FF"><font size=-1>The
close-formation tactics are another simple tool for competant GMs who wish
to vary the details of a combat for their party. A GM always has to balance
(or at least be aware of) the party's capabilities. However, as most fighters
I play with or GM have 140-160 strike chance, it is hard to introduce a
challenge to them without (excessive) magic.</font></font></font></span><span 
class=152021819-21012001></span><span class=152021819-21012001><font face="Arial"><font color="#0000FF"><font size=-1>Could
people try to be a little more positive or constructive in their attitude
to other ideas, players &amp; GMs, or keep their opinions to themselves
until they are a little less depressed?</font></font></font></span><span 
class=152021819-21012001></span><span class=152021819-21012001><font face="Arial"><font color="#0000FF"><font size=-1>And
what's a goober?</font></font></font></span><span 
class=152021819-21012001></span><span 
class=152021819-21012001><font face="Arial"><font color="#0000FF"><font size=-1>Andrew</font></font></font></span>
<blockquote style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<blockquote 
  style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">&nbsp;<font size=-1>ah,
but William, once you have ideas for unit formation tactics, then you have
guidelines for how to treat them once they have broken formation.</font>&nbsp;&nbsp;<font size=-1>William's
reply</font>&nbsp;<font size=-1>Rules to cover such things would be all
well and good for a wargame but we must face the cold, hard truth that
most players cannot work out thier TMR, defence, initiative and have the
tatical capabilities of a moldy lemon.</font>&nbsp;<font size=-1>Applying
'reality' to a combat system where it takes one minute to cover 100 yards
(60 hexes) is doomed to failure.</font>&nbsp;<font size=-1>&nbsp;I want
characters to be able to be heroes and the rules should favour heroic endevour
and not recreations of medival battles. If that is your cup of hot water
I suggest the SCA or a metal weapons club.</font>&nbsp;<font size=-1>&nbsp;I
am aware of what the 'omni-weapons' (battleaxe, hand+half, glaive) would
do to such formations. Please, lets make other weapon choices even more
redundant.</font>&nbsp;<font size=-1>I also realised that 'pleb' means
different things and that to some it means Rk4 in optimal weapons granting
the 100 or so defence. This is why a fighter even with a good weapon will
have a dull time of it.</font>&nbsp;<font size=-1>"Oh, a 32, I guess I
miss the guardsman."</font>&nbsp;<font size=-1>What a screamingly fun time.
Lets convince PCs that unless they are totally min-maxed for combat that
they are complete goobers whose figure only contributes in keeping the
hex grid down.</font>&nbsp;<font size=-1>William</font></blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>

</body>
</html>

--------------36D8D20F6E01C9A489CE9B9B--



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Subject: Re: [dq] DQ: GM Tools / Armies
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The close-formation tactics are another simple tool for competant GMs who
wish to vary the details of a combat for their party. A GM always has to
balance (or at least be aware of) the party's capabilities. However, as most
fighters I play with or GM have 140-160 strike chance, it is hard to
introduce a challenge to them without (excessive) magic.

Could people try to be a little more positive or constructive in their
attitude to other ideas, players & GMs, or keep their opinions to themselves
until they are a little less depressed?

And what's a goober?

Andrew

I disagree. I think it is a bad tool.

Past experience has shown me that simply saying 'no, I have a bad feeling
about this.' doesn't work. It didn't work this time so I decided to use some
emotive language to help descibe why I felt this way. I have tried being
only constructive and postive in the past and with the result being the
advent of things I would only touch with a darksphere. Time for a different
approach I felt.

To your points.

Explain how a fighter has 140-160 SC without using access to 'excessive'
magic and skills. Any ways it is not the high attack but high defence
ratings which are a problem.

Then explain how to also make the game interesting for a non min-maxed
fighter. You know, someone who chose not to use a hand+half, have 20+ MD/AG
and not be smelling of myrhh all the time. This was one of my major
objections.

Goobers are to be covered in a whole separate (and sterilised) document.

William




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Subject: Re: [dq] DQ: GM Tools / Armies
From: Stephen Martin <stephenm@qed.co.nz>
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Being one of the non-mages Andrew has GM'd and played with who has a SC in
the 140-160 range - it's hard work and it requires high skill and magic.

MD 20 = 20%
Max Rank Hand & Half = 60 + (7 * 4) = 88%
Rank 6 Warrior = 6%
Rk 20 Greater = 20%
Magic Weapon +17%

Total = 151%  Doing D+7
And with another 4 or 5 adventures, 30,000 or so xp, and some luck I might
even make 160%.

And yes it is maxed out as much as possible for my abilities and level -
why? because its the only way to feel like you're a better fighter than your
average town guardsman or orc.  Even then the town guard are sometimes very
hard to take down.

As a matter of interest with a normal combat defence of 40% (78% evading)
and wearing plate, I would almost never miss myself but it would be a slow
fight won by the clone who got the most endurance blows.
On the plus side I get to wade through large groups of unarmoured unskilled
opponents.

Also as a fighter who while having a few general skills (sometimes at better
ranks than the mages), is basically best at hitting things, is is
frustrating to finally enter the area of your expertise (a fight) and step
up to do the thing you're best at (hitting things) only to discover that
they are un-hittable for one reason or another.  And since the fighter in
the group can't hit them the fighter-mages probably can't either, so the
combat is won or lost on the groups magical firepower.
Great - my contribution to the party was to make the enemy un-hittable,
therefore the party would have been better off with another pure caster
blast mage.  Apart from the brilliant and entertaining role-playing that I
brought to the group <humble grin>.

Fortunately this has not happened very often, but is is something to keep in
mind.  While many characters are generalists who can turn their abilities to
most situations, it is enjoyable and satisfying for those specialist to be
able to excel and be better than the rest when they are in a situation where
their speciality applies.  Of course the balance to this is to ensure that
once character doesn't get all the fun or get to be the best all of the time
because then the novelty wears off and it becomes the new normal and
expected.  Then they are dissapointed when in a situation where they are a
mere mortal.

Cheers, Stephen.

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Dworkin [SMTP:dworkin@ihug.co.nz]
> Sent:	Tuesday, 23 January 2001 23:13
> To:	dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject:	Re: [dq] DQ: GM Tools / Armies
> 
> 
> 
> balance (or at least be aware of) the party's capabilities. However, as
> most
> fighters I play with or GM have 140-160 strike chance, it is hard to
> introduce a challenge to them without (excessive) magic.
> 
> Andrew
> 
> 
> To your points.
> 
> Explain how a fighter has 140-160 SC without using access to 'excessive'
> magic and skills. Any ways it is not the high attack but high defence
> ratings which are a problem.
> 
> Then explain how to also make the game interesting for a non min-maxed
> fighter. You know, someone who chose not to use a hand+half, have 20+
> MD/AG
> and not be smelling of myrhh all the time. This was one of my major
> objections.
> 
> William
> 


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I agree completely.

Stephen Martin wrote:

> Being one of the non-mages Andrew has GM'd and played with who has a SC in
> the 140-160 range - it's hard work and it requires high skill and magic.
>
> MD 20 = 20%
> Max Rank Hand & Half = 60 + (7 * 4) = 88%
> Rank 6 Warrior = 6%
> Rk 20 Greater = 20%
> Magic Weapon +17%
>
> Total = 151%  Doing D+7
> And with another 4 or 5 adventures, 30,000 or so xp, and some luck I might
> even make 160%.
>
> And yes it is maxed out as much as possible for my abilities and level -
> why? because its the only way to feel like you're a better fighter than your
> average town guardsman or orc.  Even then the town guard are sometimes very
> hard to take down.
>
> As a matter of interest with a normal combat defence of 40% (78% evading)
> and wearing plate, I would almost never miss myself but it would be a slow
> fight won by the clone who got the most endurance blows.
> On the plus side I get to wade through large groups of unarmoured unskilled
> opponents.
>
> Also as a fighter who while having a few general skills (sometimes at better
> ranks than the mages), is basically best at hitting things, is is
> frustrating to finally enter the area of your expertise (a fight) and step
> up to do the thing you're best at (hitting things) only to discover that
> they are un-hittable for one reason or another.  And since the fighter in
> the group can't hit them the fighter-mages probably can't either, so the
> combat is won or lost on the groups magical firepower.
> Great - my contribution to the party was to make the enemy un-hittable,
> therefore the party would have been better off with another pure caster
> blast mage.  Apart from the brilliant and entertaining role-playing that I
> brought to the group <humble grin>.
>
> Fortunately this has not happened very often, but is is something to keep in
> mind.  While many characters are generalists who can turn their abilities to
> most situations, it is enjoyable and satisfying for those specialist to be
> able to excel and be better than the rest when they are in a situation where
> their speciality applies.  Of course the balance to this is to ensure that
> once character doesn't get all the fun or get to be the best all of the time
> because then the novelty wears off and it becomes the new normal and
> expected.  Then they are dissapointed when in a situation where they are a
> mere mortal.
>
> Cheers, Stephen.
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Dworkin [SMTP:dworkin@ihug.co.nz]
> > Sent: Tuesday, 23 January 2001 23:13
> > To:   dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> > Subject:      Re: [dq] DQ: GM Tools / Armies
> >
> >
> >
> > balance (or at least be aware of) the party's capabilities. However, as
> > most
> > fighters I play with or GM have 140-160 strike chance, it is hard to
> > introduce a challenge to them without (excessive) magic.
> >
> > Andrew
> >
> >
> > To your points.
> >
> > Explain how a fighter has 140-160 SC without using access to 'excessive'
> > magic and skills. Any ways it is not the high attack but high defence
> > ratings which are a problem.
> >
> > Then explain how to also make the game interesting for a non min-maxed
> > fighter. You know, someone who chose not to use a hand+half, have 20+
> > MD/AG
> > and not be smelling of myrhh all the time. This was one of my major
> > objections.
> >
> > William
> >
>
> -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html --



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Subject: [dq] DQ : Information request
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Is anyone using the area north of the Lunar Empire?
I want to place a Dwarven clan somewhere.

Other than that - has anyone started a clan that they are not using anymore.
I would be happy to take over their location.

Cheers Gordon.
http://welcome.to/housegorgox/



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Subject: [dq] This Sunday??
From: "Michael Parkinson" <m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz>
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Nothing has been posted (with only one working day's notice) -- so I'm
assuming there will be no DQ gods meeting this Sunday.  Advise me [promptly
please] if I am wrong.

regards, Michael.

Michael Parkinson
Mathematics & Statistics Subject Librarian
===============================



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Subject: [dq-announce] This Sunday??
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Nothing has been posted (with only one working day's notice) -- so I'm
assuming there will be no DQ gods meeting this Sunday.  Advise me [promptly
please] if I am wrong.

regards, Michael.

Michael Parkinson
Mathematics & Statistics Subject Librarian
===============================



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I concur with Michael.  Nothing to vote on, not even any active email
discussions so no meeting.

Hmmm maybe we've finally got the rules right.... nah that can't be it must
just be that we're all getting too dedicated to our work.

Cheers, Stephen.

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Michael Parkinson [SMTP:m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz]
> Sent:	Thursday, 1 February 2001 16:45
> To:	dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject:	[dq] This Sunday??
> 
> Nothing has been posted (with only one working day's notice) -- so I'm
> assuming there will be no DQ gods meeting this Sunday.  Advise me
> [promptly
> please] if I am wrong.
> 
> regards, Michael.
> 
> Michael Parkinson
> Mathematics & Statistics Subject Librarian
> ===============================
> 
> 
> 
> -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html --


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Dear All,

I suggest a one week hiatus in teh meeting, to allow people a five day
weekend (read 105 days for some (smug grin)):

to be held at noon, Sunday 11 February 2001 in Michael's commodius lounge.

Please email me items for the agenda, which I will post on Thursday.


cheers Ian

PS and I even had chocolate to take - sigh.




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Subject: [dq] Initiative/Quickness
From: Keith Smith <phaeton@ihug.co.nz>
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Could you all please e-mail me your ideas for initiative calculations and 
quickness adjustments, I'm sure that there are some really good ideas out 
there that have been used, that can serve as a replacement for the current 
rules.

Thanks,

Keith
(phaeton@ihug.co.nz)




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Subject: [dq] Witchsight v Invisibility - Mark 2
From: Keith Smith <phaeton@ihug.co.nz>
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Below is a re-transmission of an Invisibility/Witchsight proposal I sent 
out a while ago.....

It was pointed out to me that Invis has a much higher EM than Walking 
Unseen so it should be a harder nut to crack with Witchsight - which also 
explains the exception in the current writeup. With this in mind, here is 
my revised idea to get around witchsight seeing everything.

1) Against Walking Unseen/Blending. If the Rank of Witchsight is greater 
than or equal to the Rank in Walking Unseen, then the target can be seen 
with a slight blue sheen. If the Rank of Witchsight is less than the Rank 
in Walking Unseen then nothing is seen.

2) Against Invisibility. If the Rank of Witchsight is >= twice the rank of 
Invisibility then the target can be seen otherwise nothing is seen. This is 
modified by 1 for each point of perception above 15 (10 for the Celestial 
spell) that the viewer has. For example, someone with Rank 10 Witchsight 
can see up to and including Rank 5 Invisibility. But if they have a 
perception of 18 they can see up to Rank 8, if using a talent, and Rank 13 
if using the spell.

This should give motivation for ranking both the spell and perception. A 
similar perception modifier could be added to the Walking Unseen/Blending 
case but I felt it might make things too easy.

Comments?

Keith
(phaeton@ihug.co.nz)






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Subject: [dq] Price of crossbows
From: Keith Smith <phaeton@ihug.co.nz>
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It's been pointed out to me that the price of crossbows in the rulebook is 
low, probably by a factor of 10.

Currently the bow prices are:
	Self bow		20
	Short bow		20
	Long bow		25
	Composite bow		80
	Giant bow		80

	Crossbow		15
	Heavy crossbow		20

I would have thought that crossbows would be more expensive than longbows 
as they take longer to make and require more intricate work and materials.

Comments?

Keith
(phaeton@ihug.co.nz)
  




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Subject: Re: [dq] Initiative/Quickness
From: scott whitaker <kharsis@ihug.co.nz>
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The one I've always run and been run under is the normal initiative
calculation with combat order being the following

1>    Quickened first action
2    non - quickened
3    quickened second action.

This has always seemed to work for me

scott

Keith Smith wrote:

> Could you all please e-mail me your ideas for initiative calculations and
> quickness adjustments, I'm sure that there are some really good ideas out
> there that have been used, that can serve as a replacement for the current
> rules.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Keith
> (phaeton@ihug.co.nz)
>
> -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html --




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Subject: Re: [dq] Price of crossbows
From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Ian__Wood_&_Ellen__Hume=A0&_Adara_Wood?=" <adara@ihug.co.nz>
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>
>I would have thought that crossbows would be more expensive than longbows
>as they take longer to make and require more intricate work and materials.
>
>Comments?
>
>Keith


I would imagine that it would (partially) depend on the relative scarcity of
the wood required to make a half-way decent long bow. I'm guessing that
crossbows are less fussy about the wood (or other material) used. I'm would
also think that the skills used in making long bows are not identical to
those used in making crossbows. Also, didn't a really good long bow tend to
be made for the individual user?

Or I could be wrong on any or all of the above.

Cheers
Errol




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Subject: Re: [dq] Price of crossbows
From: scott whitaker <kharsis@ihug.co.nz>
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No the prices are about right.

Only certain types of wood make good longbows whereas a crossbow can be made
out of practically anything.  A longbow also takes a lot of shaping and
bending whereas a xbow can almost be "mass" manufactured in comparison.

scott

Keith Smith wrote:

> It's been pointed out to me that the price of crossbows in the rulebook is
> low, probably by a factor of 10.
>
> Currently the bow prices are:
>         Self bow                20
>         Short bow               20
>         Long bow                25
>         Composite bow           80
>         Giant bow               80
>
>         Crossbow                15
>         Heavy crossbow          20
>
> I would have thought that crossbows would be more expensive than longbows
> as they take longer to make and require more intricate work and materials.
>
> Comments?
>
> Keith
> (phaeton@ihug.co.nz)
>
>
> -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html --




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Subject: Re: [dq] Initiative/Quickness
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scott whitaker wrote:
> 
> The one I've always run and been run under is the normal initiative
> calculation with combat order being the following
> 
> 1>    Quickened first action
> 2    non - quickened
> 3    quickened second action.
> 
> This has always seemed to work for me

And, it's predictable and BORING



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Subject: Re: [dq] Witchsight v Invisibility - Mark 2
From: Jim Arona <jimarona@ihug.co.nz>
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Keith Smith wrote:
> 
> Below is a re-transmission of an Invisibility/Witchsight proposal I sent
> out a while ago.....
> 
> It was pointed out to me that Invis has a much higher EM than Walking
> Unseen so it should be a harder nut to crack with Witchsight - which also
> explains the exception in the current writeup. With this in mind, here is
> my revised idea to get around witchsight seeing everything.

There is no particular reason to make it harder to see Invisible
characters. At Rank 16, the spell has the advantage of allowing the
subject to attack and not lose their concealment. And, the spell allows
the caster to make objects invisible, too. 
I really don't see that there needs to be more encouragement to rank the
spells and talents mentioned. Whatever the EM, a character is going to
want to want to advance their ranks, unless they choose not to.



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Subject: Re: [dq] Initiative/Quickness
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> > The one I've always run and been run under is the normal initiative
> > calculation with combat order being the following
> >
> > 1>    Quickened first action
> > 2    non - quickened
> > 3    quickened second action.
> >
> > This has always seemed to work for me
>
> And, it's predictable and BORING

It's the helpful and constructive critisism that makes this game the joy
that it is.

Mandos
/s




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Subject: Re: [dq] Price of crossbows
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Price and skill wise, longbows are considerably harder to use and buy.
This is becuase:

a) It takes at least two years to make a good longbowman, and most were
trained from childhood
b) Seasoning the wood for a longbow takes 2-3 years and  obtaining wood
suitable wood can be a problem in most climates.

By contrast Genoese and Florientien crossbowman were trained in the use of
the weapon for two weeks, and were then considered profficient. Equally the
bows could be made of almost any type of wood and metal parts were
manufactured in mass, usually in Italy or Germany.

The advantage of longbows are range and rate of fire. The advantage of
crossbows was speed of manufacture and quick deployment of trained personal.
Both had excellent penetration.




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Subject: Re: [dq] Witchsight v Invisibility - Mark 2
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I agree with Jim,

the rules work and are easy.

We do not need to achieve ballance between colleges.

Ian

-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Arona <jimarona@ihug.co.nz>
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz <dq@dq.sf.org.nz>
Date: Saturday, 3 February 2001 15:29
Subject: Re: [dq] Witchsight v Invisibility - Mark 2


>
>
>Keith Smith wrote:
>>
>> Below is a re-transmission of an Invisibility/Witchsight proposal I sent
>> out a while ago.....
>>
>> It was pointed out to me that Invis has a much higher EM than Walking
>> Unseen so it should be a harder nut to crack with Witchsight - which also
>> explains the exception in the current writeup. With this in mind, here is
>> my revised idea to get around witchsight seeing everything.
>
>There is no particular reason to make it harder to see Invisible
>characters. At Rank 16, the spell has the advantage of allowing the
>subject to attack and not lose their concealment. And, the spell allows
>the caster to make objects invisible, too.
>I really don't see that there needs to be more encouragement to rank the
>spells and talents mentioned. Whatever the EM, a character is going to
>want to want to advance their ranks, unless they choose not to.
>
>
>
>-- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html --
>




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Subject: Re: [dq] Price of crossbows
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I agree with Scott, leave price as is

Ian
-----Original Message-----
From: scott whitaker <kharsis@ihug.co.nz>
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz <dq@dq.sf.org.nz>
Date: Saturday, 3 February 2001 14:52
Subject: Re: [dq] Price of crossbows


>No the prices are about right.
>
>Only certain types of wood make good longbows whereas a crossbow can be
made
>out of practically anything.  A longbow also takes a lot of shaping and
>bending whereas a xbow can almost be "mass" manufactured in comparison.
>
>scott
>
>Keith Smith wrote:
>
>> It's been pointed out to me that the price of crossbows in the rulebook
is
>> low, probably by a factor of 10.
>>
>> Currently the bow prices are:
>>         Self bow                20
>>         Short bow               20
>>         Long bow                25
>>         Composite bow           80
>>         Giant bow               80
>>
>>         Crossbow                15
>>         Heavy crossbow          20
>>
>> I would have thought that crossbows would be more expensive than longbows
>> as they take longer to make and require more intricate work and
materials.
>>
>> Comments?
>>
>> Keith
>> (phaeton@ihug.co.nz)
>>
>>
>> -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html --
>
>
>
>
>-- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html --
>




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I partly dis agree with Jim,

It may be boring but is atleast easy for the GM.

Unfortunately, this means that NPCs either go first or go last, and it is
very hard to mix it up a bit, without heaps of magic.

I would like to see some proposals to vary the calculation, maybe
introducing some new factors, such as weapon weight or working in formation.
    These should not be difficult even for the numerically challenged (or
'thick' as we in the trade calls them), as they only need to be calculated
once.

Overall, the current plethora of trials on this subject suggest that there
is a widely perceived problem with initiative. I would not like a huge
arguement on who's solution is best.

I would much prefer to end up with a range of options for GM to choose from,
much like the backfire table.

Ian

-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Arona <jimarona@ihug.co.nz>
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz <dq@dq.sf.org.nz>
Date: Saturday, 3 February 2001 15:12
Subject: Re: [dq] Initiative/Quickness


>
>
>scott whitaker wrote:
>>
>> The one I've always run and been run under is the normal initiative
>> calculation with combat order being the following
>>
>> 1>    Quickened first action
>> 2    non - quickened
>> 3    quickened second action.
>>
>> This has always seemed to work for me
>
>And, it's predictable and BORING
>
>
>
>-- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html --
>






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Subject: Re: [dq] Price of crossbows
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>I agree with Scott, leave price as is

OK. Thanks for the explanations everyone.

Keith
(phaeton@ihug.co.nz)




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Subject: Re: [dq] Initiative/Quickness
From: Keith Smith <phaeton@ihug.co.nz>
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>I would like to see some proposals to vary the calculation, maybe
>introducing some new factors, such as weapon weight or working in formation.
>     These should not be difficult even for the numerically challenged (or
>'thick' as we in the trade calls them), as they only need to be calculated
>once.
>
>Overall, the current plethora of trials on this subject suggest that there
>is a widely perceived problem with initiative. I would not like a huge
>arguement on who's solution is best.

Neither do I.

>I would much prefer to end up with a range of options for GM to choose from,
>much like the backfire table.

That makes sense to me too although it would be nice to have one, accepted, 
solution so that the players don't get confused about which GM is running 
which option.

Keith
(phaeton@ihug.co.nz)




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Hi there Keith,


Your two comments appear (to me) to be mutually exclusive, at least in the
DQ gods world I know of, as you are seeking a miracle [no arguements before
selecting one solution, that every GM then uses exclusively]. I admit that
part of the contract for playing/GMing in DQ is that we abide by and use the
current set of rules (unless you are play testing something, which seems to
be most of the time, and so perhaps we need to be a bit more flexible on
this one).

I would prefer a set of accepted solutions for the GM to choose from, as
best for their campaign. A set of acceptable initiative rules would be
better for me than the current hodg-podg, where players do not know that
alternatives *exist*, until the first combat. Also, people are trialling
different solutions because they see different needs, and we should respect
those differences - one system may not suit all, nor all circumstances.
Forcing all to accept one solution automoatically disenfranchises those with
different needs.

On an aside, I am yet to understand Paul's system completely, but I trust
him to know that it is working for his campaign, and that it is (moderately)
fair. So far it is fun, but I am not sure that I would wish to use it when
GMing a bunny adventure nor when running many NPCs, as the amount of dice
rolling would kill me (rsi in the dice hand?? - well it is a novel excuse
!! - will hairy palms be teh sign of genetically modified GMs? or GMGMs? or
G2Msquareds ?).

Perhaps some others can assist with the miracles ? I note we have no saints
yet...only gods, and a fractious pantheon it is too.

Ian
-----Original Message-----
From: Keith Smith <phaeton@ihug.co.nz>
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz <dq@dq.sf.org.nz>
Date: Sunday, 4 February 2001 09:59
Subject: Re: [dq] Initiative/Quickness


>
>>I would like to see some proposals to vary the calculation, maybe
>>introducing some new factors, such as weapon weight or working in
formation.
>>     These should not be difficult even for the numerically challenged (or
>>'thick' as we in the trade calls them), as they only need to be calculated
>>once.
>>
>>Overall, the current plethora of trials on this subject suggest that there
>>is a widely perceived problem with initiative. I would not like a huge
>>arguement on who's solution is best.
>
>Neither do I.
>
>>I would much prefer to end up with a range of options for GM to choose
from,
>>much like the backfire table.
>
>That makes sense to me too although it would be nice to have one, accepted,
>solution so that the players don't get confused about which GM is running
>which option.
>
>Keith
>(phaeton@ihug.co.nz)
>
>
>
>
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>




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Subject: Re: [dq] Initiative/Quickness
From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Ian__Wood_&_Ellen__Hume=A0&_Adara_Wood?=" <adara@ihug.co.nz>
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Hi Keith,

Agree and support your idea for a list of viable alternative intiative
systems,

and hope everyone sends their intiative proposals to you, as given below...

Ian

>
>I get the feeling that many of the GMs are using similar systems so I was
>thinking of collecting them all and attempting to combine them, but I'd be
>happy with a list of viable alternatives.


snip
>
>Keith
>(phaeton@ihug.co.nz)
>
>




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