Messages for 26 October 2000

Subject

Re: Seeing through Illusion

From

Rosemary_Mansfield/AJNzl/NZ@AJ.CO.NZ

This is a multipart message in MIME format.

1) I like the idea of being able to see through illusions.  Illusionist 
players are supposed to be thinking up cool ways to use their college and 
illusions being opaque is was the first limit to this I found.

2) I haven't met any GM's doing much weird stuff about seeing through 
illusions.  The GMs I've seen interacting with illusions have mostly had 
illusionist so are working by the same stuff they had to figure out for 
their character. 

An aside ...
One other thing I have noticed is that players and GMs haven't quite 
sorted that illusions are a 'mana thing' and have all the apparent 
properties of a real thing except those specified in the spell.  (so an 
animal looks, feels & smells like the real thing but a wall looks like a 
wall but is not solid).

Currently Illusionists can detect illusions but not identify what they are 
hiding (except for the few purely visual illusions which you can feel what 
is underneath).

An ability to see through illusions sounds like it should be part of the 
Enhanced Vision talent, which is used to either detect illusions or see 
invisible.  We could strip the 'see invisible' part and replace it with a 
rank based see thru illusions.  (And maybe add E&E Wizards sight to SK).

Or if we don't want the ability to be a talent then Andrew's idea of a SK 
spell sounds ok.  It should probably be self only.

Rosemary

PS.  This note of Jacqui implies that a) GM's don't think detecting 
illusions is tough, and b) players are really keen to get it.
If you're talking about Enhanced Vision, be warned that this talent is 
definitely flavour of the season for PCs to acquire. Keith was running a 
party last session where four out of six had some species of Enhanced 
Vision, and only one was an Illusionist...

Jacqui

<br><font size=3 face="sans-serif">1) I like the idea of being able to see through illusions. &nbsp;Illusionist players are supposed to be thinking up cool ways to use their college and illusions being opaque is was the first limit to this I found.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3 face="sans-serif">2) I haven't met any GM's doing much weird stuff about seeing through illusions. &nbsp;The GMs I've seen interacting with illusions have mostly had &nbsp;illusionist so are working by the same stuff they had to figure out for their character. &nbsp;</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3 face="sans-serif">An aside ...</font>
<br><font size=3 face="sans-serif">One other thing I have noticed is that players and GMs haven't quite sorted that illusions are a 'mana thing' and have all the apparent properties of a real thing except those specified in the spell. &nbsp;(so an animal looks, feels &amp; smells like the real thing but a wall looks like a wall but is not solid).</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3 face="sans-serif">Currently Illusionists can detect illusions but not identify what they are hiding (except for the few purely visual illusions which you can feel what is underneath).</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3 face="sans-serif">An ability to see through illusions sounds like it should be part of the Enhanced Vision talent, which is used to either detect illusions or see invisible. &nbsp;We could strip the 'see invisible' part and replace it with a rank based see thru illusions. &nbsp;(And maybe add E&amp;E Wizards sight to SK).</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3 face="sans-serif">Or if we don't want the ability to be a talent then Andrew's idea of a SK spell sounds ok. &nbsp;It should probably be self only.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3 face="sans-serif">Rosemary</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3 face="sans-serif">PS. &nbsp;This note of Jacqui implies that a) GM's don't think detecting illusions is tough, and b) players are really keen to get it.</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">If you're talking about Enhanced Vision, be warned that this talent is <br>
definitely flavour of the season for PCs to acquire. Keith was running a <br>
party last session where four out of six had some species of Enhanced <br>
Vision, and only one was an Illusionist...<br>
<br>
Jacqui<br>
</font>
<br>
<br>

Subject	Re: Seeing through Illusion
From	"Mark Simpson"
I'm still not convinced that we need anyone to have the ability to see through Illusions. While an illusion is obviously a thing of magic, nevertheless the visual/light aspect on an illusion is "real" in the same way as the heat from a fire mages flames is real. Does knowing that a fire mages flame is "mere magic" and therefore "not real" stop it from burning you? I think this whole debate stems from a misunderstanding of what an illusion is, which was compounded/created by the "old" college. As I understand it IIlusions used to be far more flexible but could be disbelived away - hence the implictation that what you were seeing was not actually there but was all in your mind - your mind being mislead by this magic stuff into thinking you see xyz in front of you. In contrast, as I understand the "new" college, the sight illusions it creates are actually really there at least insofar as interacting with light is concerned, in other words they interact with light as if they were what they appear to be (casting shadows etc. etc.). Effectively they are holograms for want of a better term. Therefore, while you may be able to "switch them off" with counterspells/ritual of dissipation, you should not be able to see through them unless and until you do. /\/\ark ----------------------------------------------------------------- The contents of this e-mail are confidential to Westpac Banking Corporation. If you have received this communication by mistake, please advise the sender immediately and delete the message and any attachments. The views expressed in this e-mail are not necessarily the views of Westpac Banking Corporation. Westpac Banking Corporation is incorporated in New South Wales, Australia. ----------------------------------------------------------------- -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html --

Subject

Re: Seeing through Illusion

From

"Mark Simpson"

I'm still not convinced that we need anyone to have the ability to see
through Illusions. While an illusion is obviously a thing of magic,
nevertheless the visual/light aspect on an illusion is "real" in the same
way as the heat from a fire mages flames is real. Does knowing that a fire
mages flame is "mere magic" and therefore "not real" stop it from burning
you?

I think this whole debate stems  from a misunderstanding of what an
illusion is, which was compounded/created by the "old" college. As I
understand it IIlusions used to be far more flexible but could be
disbelived away - hence the implictation that what you were seeing was not
actually there but was all in your mind - your mind being mislead by this
magic stuff into thinking you see xyz in front of you. In contrast, as I
understand the "new" college, the sight illusions it creates are actually
really there at least insofar as interacting with light is concerned, in
other words they interact with light as if they were what they appear to be
(casting shadows etc. etc.). Effectively they are holograms for want of a
better term. Therefore, while you may be able to "switch them off" with
counterspells/ritual of dissipation, you should not be able to see through
them unless and until you do.

/\/\ark
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Subject	Re: Seeing through Illusion
From	Jim Arona
Interesting point. Completely irrelevant. Read Michael Parkinson's post. The issue is not in what way to rationalise the ability. It is in determining whether or not it makes for a game. Mark Simpson wrote: > > I'm still not convinced that we need anyone to have the ability to see > through Illusions. While an illusion is obviously a thing of magic, > nevertheless the visual/light aspect on an illusion is "real" in the same > way as the heat from a fire mages flames is real. Does knowing that a fire > mages flame is "mere magic" and therefore "not real" stop it from burning > you? > > I think this whole debate stems from a misunderstanding of what an > illusion is, which was compounded/created by the "old" college. As I > understand it IIlusions used to be far more flexible but could be > disbelived away - hence the implictation that what you were seeing was not > actually there but was all in your mind - your mind being mislead by this > magic stuff into thinking you see xyz in front of you. In contrast, as I > understand the "new" college, the sight illusions it creates are actually > really there at least insofar as interacting with light is concerned, in > other words they interact with light as if they were what they appear to be > (casting shadows etc. etc.). Effectively they are holograms for want of a > better term. Therefore, while you may be able to "switch them off" with > counterspells/ritual of dissipation, you should not be able to see through > them unless and until you do. > > /\/\ark > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > The contents of this e-mail are confidential to Westpac Banking > Corporation. If you have received this communication by mistake, > please advise the sender immediately and delete the message and > any attachments. > The views expressed in this e-mail are not necessarily the views of > Westpac Banking Corporation. > Westpac Banking Corporation is incorporated in New South Wales, Australia. > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html -- -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html --

Subject

Re: Seeing through Illusion

From

Jim Arona

Interesting point.
Completely irrelevant.
Read Michael Parkinson's post. The issue is not in
what way to rationalise the ability. It is in
determining whether or not it makes for a game.


Mark Simpson wrote:
> 
> I'm still not convinced that we need anyone to have the ability to see
> through Illusions. While an illusion is obviously a thing of magic,
> nevertheless the visual/light aspect on an illusion is "real" in the same
> way as the heat from a fire mages flames is real. Does knowing that a fire
> mages flame is "mere magic" and therefore "not real" stop it from burning
> you?
> 
> I think this whole debate stems  from a misunderstanding of what an
> illusion is, which was compounded/created by the "old" college. As I
> understand it IIlusions used to be far more flexible but could be
> disbelived away - hence the implictation that what you were seeing was not
> actually there but was all in your mind - your mind being mislead by this
> magic stuff into thinking you see xyz in front of you. In contrast, as I
> understand the "new" college, the sight illusions it creates are actually
> really there at least insofar as interacting with light is concerned, in
> other words they interact with light as if they were what they appear to be
> (casting shadows etc. etc.). Effectively they are holograms for want of a
> better term. Therefore, while you may be able to "switch them off" with
> counterspells/ritual of dissipation, you should not be able to see through
> them unless and until you do.
> 
> /\/\ark
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> The contents of this e-mail are confidential to Westpac Banking
> Corporation.  If you have received this communication by mistake,
> please advise the sender immediately and delete the message and
> any attachments.
> The views expressed in this e-mail are not necessarily the views of
> Westpac Banking Corporation.
> Westpac Banking Corporation is incorporated in New South Wales, Australia.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> -- to unsubscribe see http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html --


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