Keith Smith wrote:

> Items on the Agenda:
>                 - Namer

I will have a version 2 draft for the December meeting.


>         Please attend so we can get things back on track.

Please extend my apologies to the meeting -- I am still in Iowa.

Regards,
Martin


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Witchsight v Invisibility

There has been some discussion on the dq list a while ago on this subject 
that indicated that the new version of the rules caused invisibility to be 
depowered. Here is my analysis.

 From the Third Edition (published June 1988)

Witchsight Talent: "The Adept has the Base Chance of this Talent [PC + 
4/rank] of seeing objects and entities which are normally invisible or have 
been rendered invisible by magical means (i.e. Walking Unseen, Blending, 
Invisibility)" - p49

E&E Walking UnSeen: "Although the target is not invisible, it may be 
detected by using any magical means for detecting invisible entities" - p49

E&E Invisibility: "The target of this spell becomes invisible and may not 
be seen by non magical means" - p49

Celestial Blending Spell: "While remaining still, the target is not able to 
be seen by nonmagical means (i.e. as for invisibility)" - p69

Celestial Witchsight Spell: "The spell gives the target the ability to 
automatically see normally invisible entities or objects, or those that
have been rendered invisible by magic (e.g. Walking Unseen, Blending, E&E 
Invisibility etc). These entities or objects will be surrounded by a faint 
blue glow." - p70.

Celestial Walking Unseen: (cf E&E Walking Unseen)

Illusionist Enhance Vision Talent: "The Adept has a base chance of PC + 
5%/rank of seeing invisible as per the Witchsight Talent" - p53

Illusionist Invisibility Spell: (cf E&E Invisibility)

Mind Undetectability: "The target of the spell becomes undetectable (other 
than by touch). The target may be detected if an observing entity makes a 
1*PC roll. The target of the spell is effectively invisible (per E&E G8) 
but cannot be seen by Witchsight or any other magical means." - p58

Earth Blending: (cf Celestial Blending)

Earth Walking Unseen: (cf E&E Walking Unseen)

Wiccan Witchsight Talent: "The Adept has a Base Chance equal to their PC + 
(5/Rank) of seeing objects which are normally invisible or which have been 
rendered invisible by magical means." - p108

Wiccan Walking Unseen: (cf E&E Walking Unseen)

Elven Witchsight Racial Talent: (cf Wiccan Witchsight)


It was felt that these had problems for the following reasons:
1) If an entire party was invisible, then there was a lot of die rolling 
required to determine who could see who. The more people involved the worse 
it got, turning into a potential logistical nightmare for the GM. It also 
could cause chaos in the party as they could lose touch with each other.
2) It was possible for a Rank 0 Talent to reveal the presence of a Rank 20 
invisibility spell. This severely depowered invisibility in the game.


So, in the September 1999 minutes, the following proposal was submitted and 
passed. "Base Chance: Automatic. Effect: The Adept may see objects or 
entities which are invisible. They appear to have a slight blue sheen 
around them. If the invisibility effect (excluding Walking Unseen) is of a 
higher rank than the Witchsight, the object or entity may not be clearly 
identified or directly magically targeted".
Also the E&E Witchsight had a name change to "Wizard Sight" and Wiccan 
Witchsight now includes entities as well as objects.

This led to the following changes in the Fourth Revision (printed June 2000)

E&E Wizardsight - "Base Chance: Perception + 4%/Rank. Effects: The Adept 
may see objects or entities that are invisible - they appear to have a 
slight blue sheen around them. If the invisibility effect (excluding 
Walking Unseen) is of a higher rank than the Wizardsight, the object or 
entity may not be clearly identified or directly magically targeted."

Celestial Witchsight Spell - "The Adept may see objects or entities which 
are invisible and they appear to have a slight blue sheen around them. If 
the invisibility effect (excluding Walking Unseen) is of a higher rank than 
the Witchsight, the object or entity may not be clearly identified or 
directly magically targetted.

Illusionist Enhanced Vision (cf Celestial Witchsight).

Wiccan Witchsight (cf Celestial Witchsight).


These changes turns witchsight v invisibility into a Rank versus Rank 
system which eliminates the need for die rolling, except (maybe) in the 
case of Wizardsight. However, it also has the following consequences:

1) When the Rank of the Witchsight is less than the invisibility, it is 
still possible to determine that something is there and the rough location. 
Therefore, area effect spells such as Agony, Dragonflames, or Smoking Magma 
can still be used against them.

2) It is implied from the description that high rank Walking Unseens can be 
directly seen with Wizardsight or Witchsight.

3) Now that Witchsight automatically sees invisible objects, it makes high 
ranked invisibilities even less useful than they are now.

4) Does the Wizardsight Basechance refer to the chance or activating the 
talent or to the chance or seeing something invisible?


Therefore I would like to propose the following changes:

1) Remove the blue sheen altogether and replace with something like a 
distortion effect.

2) Remove the exception stated for Walking Unseen and also have higher 
ranked invisibilities not being detected at all. This means that if the 
rank of the invisibility is less than or equal to the Witchsight, then they 
can be seen otherwise they can't. This should make higher ranked 
invisibilities more valuable and give PCs incentive to rank the spell.


It should be pointed out, that if the invisible entity is trying to conceal 
themselves or use stealth to try and sneak past guards with witchsight then 
the normal stealth and perception rules apply.

Unless otherwise stated, anything naturally invisible should have a default 
Rank of 10. Bardic Ears and Wizard Eyes have the Rank of the spell that 
created them.

Keith
(phaeton@ihug.co.nz)


  



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Keith Smith wrote:

> 2) Remove the exception stated for Walking Unseen and also have higher
> ranked invisibilities not being detected at all. This means that if the
> rank of the invisibility is less than or equal to the Witchsight, then they
> can be seen otherwise they can't. This should make higher ranked
> invisibilities more valuable and give PCs incentive to rank the spell.

A possible added complication: At the beginning of an encounter, all those with
witchsight get a roll that modifies their effective rank with witchsight - e.g.

1-5: + 3
6-15: +2
16-30: +1
31-70: normal
71-85: -1
86-95: -2
96-00: -3

This removes the all-or-nothing effect where the party has rank 11 witchsight
spell and the opponents rank 10 invis (invis useless) or rank 10 witchsight vs
rank 11 invis (witchsight useless) but requires only one roll per witchsighted
person. (It turns it into a lesser all-or-nothing where Alice gets to see all
the greeblies and Bob none, however.)

Michael W.




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The exception for walking unseen is because it is a em100 spell available to
all sorts of scum, which is nearly as tough as the 450 em invis available
only to the elite & illusionists. Geting unseen to rank 20 costs ~ 10,500
(21,000 for MA15), then only rank 20 witchsights can spot you. Too tough,
too cheap.

The blue sheen & the distortion effect would have exactly the same game
result, surely? why change?

Andrew

PS: I don't think you mean the DQ 3rd Ed. - that has never been part of our
ruleset. The rules published in 1998 maybe?

-----Original Message-----
From: Keith Smith [mailto:phaeton@ihug.co.nz]

<snip>

 From the Third Edition (published June 1988)

<snip>

Therefore I would like to propose the following changes:

1) Remove the blue sheen altogether and replace with something like a 
distortion effect.

2) Remove the exception stated for Walking Unseen and also have higher 
ranked invisibilities not being detected at all. This means that if the 
rank of the invisibility is less than or equal to the Witchsight, then they 
can be seen otherwise they can't. This should make higher ranked 
invisibilities more valuable and give PCs incentive to rank the spell.

<snip>


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I've been going through my back e-mail and discovered the following topics 
that should be added to the agenda:
	Weight of potions
	Astrology skill - anyone want to take this on?
	Ranger recommendations.

Did anyone else propose anything to the e-mail list that hasn't made it to 
the formal agenda yet?

Keith
(phaeton@ihug.co.nz)



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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Martin Dickson [mailto:martin.dickson@peace.com]
> Sent: 02 November, 2000 7:11 AM
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: Gods meeting this Sunday
> 
> 
> Keith Smith wrote:
> 
> > Items on the Agenda:
> >                 - Namer
> 
> I will have a version 2 draft for the December meeting.
> 
> 
> >         Please attend so we can get things back on track.
> 
> Please extend my apologies to the meeting -- I am still in Iowa.
> 
> Regards,
> Martin
> 
> 
> --
> 
>  _/_/  Peace Software New Zealand Ltd   Email: 
> Martin.Dickson@peace.com
> _/     Martin Dickson                   Fax  : +64-9-373-0401
>        Analyst                          Phone: +64-9-373-0400
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- to unsubscribe see 
> http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/mailing-lists.html --
> 


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<br><font size=3 face="sans-serif">I have been working on a new version of ranger putting Jacqui's ideas and some of my own thoughts into English. &nbsp;It is not ready for presenting to the gods but I should be posting to the discussion group in the next couple of weeks.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3 face="sans-serif">In summary (new stuff marked with *)</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3 face="sans-serif">Broke out benefits into 4 sections: </font>
<br><font size=3 face="sans-serif">Food*: added specific abilities to forage, trap, hunt etc</font>
<br><font size=3 face="sans-serif">Shelter: setting camp*, building bivouacs etc</font>
<br><font size=3 face="sans-serif">Travelling: Orientation ('north bump'), map reading, choosing routes*, distance estimates, stealth bonus in wilderness*</font>
<br><font size=3 face="sans-serif">Safety: detect ambush, detect animal activity*, Hiding in cover*, First aid*</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3 face="sans-serif">Environmental Knowledge (old specialisation)</font>
<br><font size=3 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Effective rank when using ranger +2 ranks</font>
<br><font size=3 face="sans-serif">two ideas for 'multiple specialisation'.</font>
<br><font size=3 face="sans-serif">a) Starts with original environment at rank 0. &nbsp;Can learn extra environments at 4, 8 &amp; 10 for extra ep &amp; time; or</font>
<br><font size=3 face="sans-serif">b) Starts with original environment at rank 0. &nbsp;Can only specialise in ONE environment at a time but may change environments for extra ep &amp; time.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3 face="sans-serif">Environments: Rural, Wetlands, Plains, Woods, Jungle, Coastal, Highlands, Waste, Arctic, Caverns.</font>
<br><font size=3 face="sans-serif">(I've thought about the possibility of some terrains being in more than one environment, eg. evergreen forests in mountains seem to belong in both Woods &amp; Highlands).</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3 face="sans-serif">I'd be interested in other peoples thoughts on this.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3 face="sans-serif">Rosemary</font>

Rosemary_Mansfield/AJNzl/NZ@AJ.CO.NZ wrote:

> two ideas for 'multiple specialisation'.
> a) Starts with original environment at rank 0.  Can learn extra
> environments at 4, 8 & 10 for extra ep & time; or
> b) Starts with original environment at rank 0.  Can only specialise in
> ONE environment at a time but may change environments for extra ep &
> time.

Another fairly standard DQ way would be:
c) Starts with original environment at rank 0. Gains an additional
specialisation at ranks 4, 8, and 10.  Once the Ranger has become rank
10 can gain additional environments for extra ep & time.

> Environments: Rural, Wetlands, Plains, Woods, Jungle, Coastal,
> Highlands, Waste, Arctic, Caverns.
> (I've thought about the possibility of some terrains being in more
> than one environment, eg. evergreen forests in mountains seem to
> belong in both Woods & Highlands).

Is rural really an environment, or does it simply refer to cultivated
land, and country people?
Is "Desert" covered by "Waste" or does it deserve its own listing?  (I
think is does occur regularly enough)... Presumably "Waste" covers
scrub, tundra and that sort of thing.

Cheers,
Martin

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_/     Martin Dickson                   Fax  : +64-9-373-0401
       Analyst                          Phone: +64-9-373-0400




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