Hiya GMs,

Quick question/opinion.  Can Unarmed combat be used to perform Disarm
and/or Knockout?

Cheers,
Martin

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 _/_/  Peace Software New Zealand Ltd   Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com
_/     Martin Dickson                   Fax  : +64-9-373-0401
       Product Specialist               Phone: +64-9-373-0400




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As I read it (From the 4th revision October 13, 1999 PDF)

With a couple of exclusions in each case, Disarm can be performed with any Melee or Close rated weapon and Knockout can be performed with any Melee rated weapon.

On the Weapons chart, Unarmed is listed as "MC", ie rated for both Melee and Close.

Thus, yes, it can be used in both cases, given the the other applicable rules from Disarm or Knockout.

The most interesting of these, to my mind, is that Knockout cannot be performed on a target significantly larger than the attacker.

TTFN
----
Struan Judd (struan@motorweb.co.nz)
Senior Developer
OnTap Information Systems 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
> Martin Dickson
> Sent: Thursday, 22 March 2001 10:04
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: [dq] Combat Question
> 
> 
> Hiya GMs,
> 
> Quick question/opinion.  Can Unarmed combat be used to perform Disarm
> and/or Knockout?
> 
> Cheers,
> Martin
> 
> --
> 
>  _/_/  Peace Software New Zealand Ltd   Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com
> _/     Martin Dickson                   Fax  : +64-9-373-0401
>        Product Specialist               Phone: +64-9-373-0400
> 
> 
> 
> 
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<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">I can't see any reason why not. &nbsp;The only limitation is that Knockout can only be done in melee.</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">From the Rules:</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Knockout: A figure with any prepared Melee rated weapon excluding entangling weapons, ...</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Disarm: &nbsp;A figure may attempt to Disarm an opponent with any prepared Melee or Close rated weapon....</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">Martin</font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"> wrote:</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">Hiya GMs,<br>
<br>
Quick question/opinion. &nbsp;Can Unarmed combat be used to perform Disarm<br>
and/or Knockout?<br>
</font><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Rosemary</font>

Opinion - a guarded yes.

Note that you still need to do an endurance blow and be as big as your
opponent to do a knockout blow. However, Conan knocked out a horse? camel?
with a single blow, so obviously its possible in the real world. Given lots
of time and no stress while GMing, I'd probably treat it like a sap and they
would have to do 4 points of effective damage unless an assassin (who
presumably uses pressure points etc.). However, in the pressure of combat
I'd make a whim / caffiene influenced judgement call.


Also, the GM can always laugh off your attack - a hobbit trying to disarm a
giant with their bare hands would usually be silly; or if the opponent's
weapon is on fire you would take damage. It may also give the GM a big bonus
to hitting the unarmed attacker.

People with really high unarmed treat it as martial arts, and I understand
that you can disarm people (at least in the movies) with martial arts, so
that is the expectation of some players. However, if you don't have high
unarmed, I reckon you'll get your hands chopped off.

If you are (effectively) immune to your opponent's weapon then a disarm with
your hands would be really easy. (demons vs non-magic, shapechanger vs
PS<25, armour 15 vs dagger, etc.)


Andrew
-----Original Message-----
From: Martin Dickson [mailto:martin.dickson@peace.com]
Sent: Thursday, 22 March 2001 10:04 a.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: [dq] Combat Question


Hiya GMs,

Quick question/opinion.  Can Unarmed combat be used to perform Disarm
and/or Knockout?

Cheers,
Martin

--

 _/_/  Peace Software New Zealand Ltd   Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com
_/     Martin Dickson                   Fax  : +64-9-373-0401
       Product Specialist               Phone: +64-9-373-0400




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>Quick question/opinion.  Can Unarmed combat be used to perform Disarm
>and/or Knockout?

As a player, I've been allowed to attempt a knock-out whenever I've wanted
to.  I've never tried for a disarm because I dislike those rules, which are
ill-thought-out and appalling generalised -- even for DQ's
"points-at-the-end-of-a-stick" mentality.

As a GM my opinion is the same, although I would begrudgingly have to
accept a player who did want to disarm with any viable weapon.

regards, Michael



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From: Struan Judd [mailto:neongraal@neongraal.sf.org.nz]

The most interesting of these, to my mind, is that Knockout cannot be
performed on a target significantly larger than the attacker.

-----------------------------

Is this just a height of head thing (for instance, can a hobbit standing on
a chair knock out a dwarf), or is it intended to represent a
mass/momentum/force limitation independant of PS?

A(ssume a) Stegosaurus has its head 1-2 m from the ground, so can it be
knocked out (assuming that the GM says it can be knocked out) by a human, or
do you need a 30' high giant to bend over and bash it?

Can a smaller creature scale a larger creature to bash it on the head?

btw, I think that a certain amount of damage should be inflicted to knockout
- say enough to stun (easy enough for an EN blow, but stops daggers or bare
fists with PS 10 from knocking out giants).

Andrew


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> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
> Andrew Withy (DSL AK)
> 
> From: Struan Judd [mailto:neongraal@neongraal.sf.org.nz]
> 
> The most interesting of these, to my mind, is that Knockout cannot be
> performed on a target significantly larger than the attacker.
> 
> -----------------------------
> 
> Is this just a height of head thing (for instance, can a hobbit 
> standing on
> a chair knock out a dwarf), or is it intended to represent a
> mass/momentum/force limitation independant of PS?

Hmm, yes, .... :-)

The latter, generally, I would think.

> A(ssume a) Stegosaurus has its head 1-2 m from the ground, so can it be
> knocked out (assuming that the GM says it can be knocked out) by 
> a human, or do you need a 30' high giant to bend over and bash it?

I do think the giant ( or an entity of similar mass/robust nature ) is required in this example. 

> Can a smaller creature scale a larger creature to bash it on the head?

They can always try but unless they are able to do a significantly lucky / effective / crushing blow they will just end up killing it slowly.

> btw, I think that a certain amount of damage should be inflicted 
> to knockout
> - say enough to stun (easy enough for an EN blow, but stops 
> daggers or bare fists with PS 10 from knocking out giants)

While I agree in principle, I think it is more that the blow needs to be placed appropriately (hence the Base chance modifer) and be effective despite (armour, tiredness, ??? :-)) hence the requirement for an endurance quality hit.

Sap, being designed for this sort of thing, thus get to knockout with a lesser quality hit of 4 (or 1 if "diplomat" pf course) points effective.

TTFN
----
Struan Judd (struan@motorweb.co.nz)
Senior Developer
OnTap Information Systems 



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According to the rules, I believe Unarmed is rated for melee and close. so
the simple answer would be yes.

You may wish to award the opponent a roll against weapon (Rank - rank)
(similar to reposte) as I would think that ANY weapon will have a good
chance of keeping a fist out, and certainly retaliating against a foot.
something like...
D + (Defender's Rank - Attacker's rank)
8+    stop the attack  and score 1 point of endurance against the attacker
3-7    stop the attack and may attempt to counter-strike the attacker
1-3    stop the attack
0    attack gets through and may attempt to counter-strike the attacker
<0    attack gets through.

of course attacks from behind would not get this, nor would anyone engaged
against two opponents.

However, as DQ doesn't have the option for characters to 'block with a
buckler and strike with a fist', it may be preferable to balance this
through the unarmed character's defence. The answer then would be "yes" and
"yes from behind", though it still fels wrong. perhaps the first should be
"yes, but they should have lower initiative (due to lack of reach etc) and
must go after the opponent".

Just a thought.

Japanese unarmed is vicious and advanced combatants can and did do disarms
against katana-armed opponents. We on the other hand have consistently said
that an eastern feel is not on for DQ, as we are above such things as
'touchy honour' and physching ourselves up in teh morning.

My advice, Martin, is to wing it. Keep the players guessing. This approach
works great for Mind mages and neatly rebukes the player for taking such a
stupid college. <g>

Ian

-----Original Message-----
From: Martin Dickson <martin.dickson@peace.com>
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz <dq@dq.sf.org.nz>
Date: Thursday, 22 March 2001 10:02
Subject: [dq] Combat Question


>Hiya GMs,
>
>Quick question/opinion.  Can Unarmed combat be used to perform Disarm
>and/or Knockout?
>
>Cheers,
>Martin
>
>--
>
> _/_/  Peace Software New Zealand Ltd   Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com
>_/     Martin Dickson                   Fax  : +64-9-373-0401
>       Product Specialist               Phone: +64-9-373-0400
>
>
>
>
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>
>



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