From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Mar 22 10:01:52 2001 Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.sig.net.nz (8.9.3/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id KAA20465; Thu, 22 Mar 2001 10:01:36 +1200 Received: from intro.peace.co.nz (intro.peace.co.nz [202.14.141.227]) by smtp.sig.net.nz (8.9.3/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id KAA20453 for ; Thu, 22 Mar 2001 10:01:33 +1200 Message-ID: <3AB92541.A05065A5@peace.com> Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 10:03:45 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Subject: [dq] Combat Question From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: List-Unsubscribe-All: Hiya GMs, Quick question/opinion. Can Unarmed combat be used to perform Disarm and/or Knockout? Cheers, Martin -- _/_/ Peace Software New Zealand Ltd Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com _/ Martin Dickson Fax : +64-9-373-0401 Product Specialist Phone: +64-9-373-0400 -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Mar 22 10:16:44 2001 Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.sig.net.nz (8.9.3/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id KAA20593; Thu, 22 Mar 2001 10:16:44 +1200 Received: from mta6-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta6-rme.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.19]) by smtp.sig.net.nz (8.9.3/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id KAA20581 for ; Thu, 22 Mar 2001 10:16:42 +1200 Received: from struan ([210.55.172.166]) by mta6-rme.xtra.co.nz with SMTP id <20010321221613.XGVC9131216.mta6-rme.xtra.co.nz@struan> for ; Thu, 22 Mar 2001 10:16:13 +1200 Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 10:16:58 +1200 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-BeenThere: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: neongraal@neongraal.sf.org.nz Subject: Re: [dq] Combat Question From: "Struan Judd" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: List-Unsubscribe-All: As I read it (From the 4th revision October 13, 1999 PDF) With a couple of exclusions in each case, Disarm can be performed with = any Melee or Close rated weapon and Knockout can be performed with any = Melee rated weapon. On the Weapons chart, Unarmed is listed as "MC", ie rated for both Melee = and Close. Thus, yes, it can be used in both cases, given the the other applicable = rules from Disarm or Knockout. The most interesting of these, to my mind, is that Knockout cannot be = performed on a target significantly larger than the attacker. TTFN ---- Struan Judd (struan@motorweb.co.nz) Senior Developer OnTap Information Systems=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of > Martin Dickson > Sent: Thursday, 22 March 2001 10:04 > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Subject: [dq] Combat Question >=20 >=20 > Hiya GMs, >=20 > Quick question/opinion. Can Unarmed combat be used to perform Disarm > and/or Knockout? >=20 > Cheers, > Martin >=20 > -- >=20 > _/_/ Peace Software New Zealand Ltd Email: = Martin.Dickson@peace.com > _/ Martin Dickson Fax : +64-9-373-0401 > Product Specialist Phone: +64-9-373-0400 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz -- >=20 >=20 -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Mar 22 10:20:19 2001 Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.sig.net.nz (8.9.3/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id KAA20645; Thu, 22 Mar 2001 10:20:18 +1200 Received: from akl-notes2.aj.co.nz (akl-notes.aj.co.nz [202.27.194.165]) by smtp.sig.net.nz (8.9.3/NZSFI-20000705) with SMTP id KAA20633 for ; Thu, 22 Mar 2001 10:20:17 +1200 X-Authentication-Warning: mae.sub.net.nz: Host akl-notes.aj.co.nz [202.27.194.165] claimed to be akl-notes2.aj.co.nz Received: from akl-notes.aj.co.nz ([192.168.4.165]) by akl-notes2.aj.co.nz (Lotus Domino Release 5.0.5) with ESMTP id 2001032210210641:20177 ; Thu, 22 Mar 2001 10:21:06 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.6 December 14, 2000 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 10:17:59 +1200 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on akl-notes.aj.co.nz/AJNzl/NZ(Release 5.0.5 |September 22, 2000) at 22/03/2001 10:18:17, Serialize complete at 22/03/2001 10:18:17, Itemize by SMTP Server on akl-notes2/AJNzl/NZ(Release 5.0.5 |September 22, 2000) at 22/03/2001 10:21:06, Serialize by Router on akl-notes2/AJNzl/NZ(Release 5.0.5 |September 22, 2000) at 22/03/2001 10:21:07, Serialize complete at 22/03/2001 10:21:07 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 007AA4FFCC256A16_=" X-BeenThere: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Subject: Re: [dq] Combat Question From: RMansfield@aj.co.nz To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: List-Unsubscribe-All: This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 007AA4FFCC256A16_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I can't see any reason why not. The only limitation is that Knockout can only be done in melee. From the Rules: Knockout: A figure with any prepared Melee rated weapon excluding entangling weapons, ... Disarm: A figure may attempt to Disarm an opponent with any prepared Melee or Close rated weapon.... Martin wrote: Hiya GMs, Quick question/opinion. Can Unarmed combat be used to perform Disarm and/or Knockout? Rosemary --=_alternative 007AA4FFCC256A16_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
I can't see any reason why not.  The only limitation is that Knockout can only be done in melee.
From the Rules:
Knockout: A figure with any prepared Melee rated weapon excluding entangling weapons, ...
Disarm:  A figure may attempt to Disarm an opponent with any prepared Melee or Close rated weapon....

Martin wrote:
Hiya GMs,

Quick question/opinion.  Can Unarmed combat be used to perform Disarm
and/or Knockout?
Rosemary --=_alternative 007AA4FFCC256A16_=-- -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Mar 22 10:23:03 2001 Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.sig.net.nz (8.9.3/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id KAA20688; Thu, 22 Mar 2001 10:23:03 +1200 Received: from mx1.datacom.co.nz (mx1.datacom.co.nz [202.27.76.230]) by smtp.sig.net.nz (8.9.3/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id KAA20681 for ; Thu, 22 Mar 2001 10:23:01 +1200 Received: from dslak12.dslak.co.nz (not verified[172.25.10.119]) by mx1.datacom.co.nz with MailMarshal (4,0,6,0) id ; Thu, 22 Mar 2001 10:23:02 +1200 Received: by dslak12.dnznet.co.nz with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Thu, 22 Mar 2001 10:23:02 +1200 Message-ID: <47E0B9F9F429D311958600508B4AB6E903E0B76E@dslak12.dnznet.co.nz> Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 10:23:02 +1200 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) X-BeenThere: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Subject: Re: [dq] Combat Question From: "Andrew Withy (DSL AK)" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: List-Unsubscribe-All: Opinion - a guarded yes. Note that you still need to do an endurance blow and be as big as your opponent to do a knockout blow. However, Conan knocked out a horse? camel? with a single blow, so obviously its possible in the real world. Given lots of time and no stress while GMing, I'd probably treat it like a sap and they would have to do 4 points of effective damage unless an assassin (who presumably uses pressure points etc.). However, in the pressure of combat I'd make a whim / caffiene influenced judgement call. Also, the GM can always laugh off your attack - a hobbit trying to disarm a giant with their bare hands would usually be silly; or if the opponent's weapon is on fire you would take damage. It may also give the GM a big bonus to hitting the unarmed attacker. People with really high unarmed treat it as martial arts, and I understand that you can disarm people (at least in the movies) with martial arts, so that is the expectation of some players. However, if you don't have high unarmed, I reckon you'll get your hands chopped off. If you are (effectively) immune to your opponent's weapon then a disarm with your hands would be really easy. (demons vs non-magic, shapechanger vs PS<25, armour 15 vs dagger, etc.) Andrew -----Original Message----- From: Martin Dickson [mailto:martin.dickson@peace.com] Sent: Thursday, 22 March 2001 10:04 a.m. To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Subject: [dq] Combat Question Hiya GMs, Quick question/opinion. Can Unarmed combat be used to perform Disarm and/or Knockout? Cheers, Martin -- _/_/ Peace Software New Zealand Ltd Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com _/ Martin Dickson Fax : +64-9-373-0401 Product Specialist Phone: +64-9-373-0400 -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz -- -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Mar 22 10:27:38 2001 Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.sig.net.nz (8.9.3/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id KAA20748; Thu, 22 Mar 2001 10:27:38 +1200 Received: from mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (mailhost.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.1.4]) by smtp.sig.net.nz (8.9.3/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id KAA20743 for ; Thu, 22 Mar 2001 10:27:34 +1200 Received: from sci4 (lbr-122-42.lbrsc.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.122.42]) by mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (8.9.2/8.9.2/8.9.2-ua) with SMTP id KAA04370 for ; Thu, 22 Mar 2001 10:27:32 +1200 (NZST) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 10:26:53 +1200 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-BeenThere: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Subject: Re: [dq] Combat Question From: "Michael Parkinson" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: List-Unsubscribe-All: >Quick question/opinion. Can Unarmed combat be used to perform Disarm >and/or Knockout? As a player, I've been allowed to attempt a knock-out whenever I've wanted to. I've never tried for a disarm because I dislike those rules, which are ill-thought-out and appalling generalised -- even for DQ's "points-at-the-end-of-a-stick" mentality. As a GM my opinion is the same, although I would begrudgingly have to accept a player who did want to disarm with any viable weapon. regards, Michael -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Mar 22 10:35:27 2001 Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.sig.net.nz (8.9.3/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id KAA20808; Thu, 22 Mar 2001 10:35:26 +1200 Received: from mx1.datacom.co.nz (mx1.datacom.co.nz [202.27.76.230]) by smtp.sig.net.nz (8.9.3/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id KAA20796 for ; Thu, 22 Mar 2001 10:35:24 +1200 Received: from dslak12.dslak.co.nz (not verified[172.25.10.119]) by mx1.datacom.co.nz with MailMarshal (4,0,6,0) id ; Thu, 22 Mar 2001 10:35:26 +1200 Received: by dslak12.dnznet.co.nz with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Thu, 22 Mar 2001 10:35:25 +1200 Message-ID: <47E0B9F9F429D311958600508B4AB6E903E0B76F@dslak12.dnznet.co.nz> Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 10:35:23 +1200 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) X-BeenThere: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Subject: Re: [dq] Combat Question From: "Andrew Withy (DSL AK)" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: List-Unsubscribe-All: From: Struan Judd [mailto:neongraal@neongraal.sf.org.nz] The most interesting of these, to my mind, is that Knockout cannot be performed on a target significantly larger than the attacker. ----------------------------- Is this just a height of head thing (for instance, can a hobbit standing on a chair knock out a dwarf), or is it intended to represent a mass/momentum/force limitation independant of PS? A(ssume a) Stegosaurus has its head 1-2 m from the ground, so can it be knocked out (assuming that the GM says it can be knocked out) by a human, or do you need a 30' high giant to bend over and bash it? Can a smaller creature scale a larger creature to bash it on the head? btw, I think that a certain amount of damage should be inflicted to knockout - say enough to stun (easy enough for an EN blow, but stops daggers or bare fists with PS 10 from knocking out giants). Andrew -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Mar 22 10:45:14 2001 Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.sig.net.nz (8.9.3/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id KAA20882; Thu, 22 Mar 2001 10:45:14 +1200 Received: from mta3-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta3-rme.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.13]) by smtp.sig.net.nz (8.9.3/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id KAA20877 for ; Thu, 22 Mar 2001 10:45:12 +1200 Received: from struan ([210.55.172.166]) by mta3-rme.xtra.co.nz with SMTP id <20010321224447.TINQ15034419.mta3-rme.xtra.co.nz@struan> for ; Thu, 22 Mar 2001 10:44:47 +1200 Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 10:45:27 +1200 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-BeenThere: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: neongraal@neongraal.sf.org.nz Subject: Re: [dq] Combat Question From: "Struan Judd" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: List-Unsubscribe-All: > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of > Andrew Withy (DSL AK) >=20 > From: Struan Judd [mailto:neongraal@neongraal.sf.org.nz] >=20 > The most interesting of these, to my mind, is that Knockout cannot be > performed on a target significantly larger than the attacker. >=20 > ----------------------------- >=20 > Is this just a height of head thing (for instance, can a hobbit=20 > standing on > a chair knock out a dwarf), or is it intended to represent a > mass/momentum/force limitation independant of PS? Hmm, yes, .... :-) The latter, generally, I would think. > A(ssume a) Stegosaurus has its head 1-2 m from the ground, so can it = be > knocked out (assuming that the GM says it can be knocked out) by=20 > a human, or do you need a 30' high giant to bend over and bash it? I do think the giant ( or an entity of similar mass/robust nature ) is = required in this example.=20 > Can a smaller creature scale a larger creature to bash it on the head? They can always try but unless they are able to do a significantly lucky = / effective / crushing blow they will just end up killing it slowly. > btw, I think that a certain amount of damage should be inflicted=20 > to knockout > - say enough to stun (easy enough for an EN blow, but stops=20 > daggers or bare fists with PS 10 from knocking out giants) While I agree in principle, I think it is more that the blow needs to be = placed appropriately (hence the Base chance modifer) and be effective = despite (armour, tiredness, ??? :-)) hence the requirement for an = endurance quality hit. Sap, being designed for this sort of thing, thus get to knockout with a = lesser quality hit of 4 (or 1 if "diplomat" pf course) points effective. TTFN ---- Struan Judd (struan@motorweb.co.nz) Senior Developer OnTap Information Systems=20 -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz -- From owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Thu Mar 22 11:15:12 2001 Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.sig.net.nz (8.9.3/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id LAA21237; Thu, 22 Mar 2001 11:15:11 +1200 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (root@smtp2.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.8]) by smtp.sig.net.nz (8.9.3/NZSFI-20000705) with ESMTP id LAA21225 for ; Thu, 22 Mar 2001 11:15:08 +1200 Received: from adara (203-109-201-76.nzl.ihugultra.co.nz [203.109.201.76]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id LAA30091 for ; Thu, 22 Mar 2001 11:14:58 +1200 X-Authentication-Warning: smtp2.ihug.co.nz: Host 203-109-201-76.nzl.ihugultra.co.nz [203.109.201.76] claimed to be adara Message-ID: <000801c0b25c$f5c779c0$010a0a0a@adara.ihug.co.nz> Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 11:15:06 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 X-BeenThere: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Subject: Re: [dq] Combat Question From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Ian__Wood_&_Ellen__Hume=A0&_Adara_Wood?=" To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Sender: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Errors-To: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: List-Unsubscribe-All: According to the rules, I believe Unarmed is rated for melee and close. so the simple answer would be yes. You may wish to award the opponent a roll against weapon (Rank - rank) (similar to reposte) as I would think that ANY weapon will have a good chance of keeping a fist out, and certainly retaliating against a foot. something like... D + (Defender's Rank - Attacker's rank) 8+ stop the attack and score 1 point of endurance against the attacker 3-7 stop the attack and may attempt to counter-strike the attacker 1-3 stop the attack 0 attack gets through and may attempt to counter-strike the attacker <0 attack gets through. of course attacks from behind would not get this, nor would anyone engaged against two opponents. However, as DQ doesn't have the option for characters to 'block with a buckler and strike with a fist', it may be preferable to balance this through the unarmed character's defence. The answer then would be "yes" and "yes from behind", though it still fels wrong. perhaps the first should be "yes, but they should have lower initiative (due to lack of reach etc) and must go after the opponent". Just a thought. Japanese unarmed is vicious and advanced combatants can and did do disarms against katana-armed opponents. We on the other hand have consistently said that an eastern feel is not on for DQ, as we are above such things as 'touchy honour' and physching ourselves up in teh morning. My advice, Martin, is to wing it. Keep the players guessing. This approach works great for Mind mages and neatly rebukes the player for taking such a stupid college. Ian -----Original Message----- From: Martin Dickson To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Date: Thursday, 22 March 2001 10:02 Subject: [dq] Combat Question >Hiya GMs, > >Quick question/opinion. Can Unarmed combat be used to perform Disarm >and/or Knockout? > >Cheers, >Martin > >-- > > _/_/ Peace Software New Zealand Ltd Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com >_/ Martin Dickson Fax : +64-9-373-0401 > Product Specialist Phone: +64-9-373-0400 > > > > >-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz -- > > -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --