Keith,

can you please check the minutes and see if the gods meeting voted to change
the rules on mind speech distance, or whether it was only a directive for
the clarification.

If the first then this is another change for the next Rule book, regardless
of whether there is a vote on Sunday or not.


many thanks Ian


-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Simpson <Mark_Simpson@westpactrust.co.nz>
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz <dq@dq.sf.org.nz>
Date: Tuesday, 29 May 2001 14:27
Subject: Re: [dq] Mind Speech


>
>Andrew, this spell used to do two things:
>
>1. Allow Silent communication which was more likely (but NOT guaranteed) to
>be private/secret; and
>
>2. Allow communication over distance.
>


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aaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrgggggghhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!

which part of "this does not matter" did you guys not get??
I specifically asked you to NOT CORRECT me on this as it is not a relevant
point for discussion.

We are here to clarify the RULES, not the history.

so kindly put your energy in to discussing the germain points, or I will
pull the thing off the agenda for lack of sanity amongst the
participants.


I hope trust and pray that this is not an indication of how Sunday will
go...

with no grace and less sympathy,

Ian

PS - as for Mark vs Jim/Andrew: both of you/all have relevant points. The
rules must work for GMs and must be predictable for players. Lets respect
each person's point of view - even if they do open up temptations to
legitimately insult them...<g>


-----Original Message-----
From: Brent Jackson <salient@kcbbs.gen.nz>
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz <dq@dq.sf.org.nz>
Date: Tuesday, 29 May 2001 23:52
Subject: Re: [dq] Mind Speech History


>snip stuff not read due to irrelevancy


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Don't be silly Ian - if we all took that attitude we wouldn't have an agenda
- and without hidden agendas how would anything happen?

Sanity is overrated. William can expound on this if necessary.

Andrew
-----Original Message-----
From: Ian Wood & Ellen Hume & Adara Wood [mailto:adara@ihug.co.nz]

aaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrgggggghhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!

... I will pull the thing off the agenda for lack of sanity amongst the
participants.


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Arnaud De Montfort wrote:

> To clear by axe enough land for just a fifth of Seagates grain needs
> would require that 290 farms be cleared, this is 14,500 acres or 1390
> man years work (we have 90 days of winter before plowing) It cannot be
> done nicely ( BURNING is the only option my fellows )

Monsieur De Montfort,

I understand that colleagues of mine at the Mechanician's Academy in
Mittlemachhaupstadt have an experimental combination tree-felling and
tilling (ploughing and sowing) machine that they built as a precursor to
the road-building machine for which they are currently searching.

I believe that they are somewhat busy with other matters at the moment,
but if you think it worthwhile I will send a message to MMHS and enquire
how soon the "Kombination Baum-Holzschlagmassepflügt Maschine" could be
deployed in the Seagate environs.

    - Sir Mortimer Graves.

--

 _/_/  Peace Software New Zealand Ltd   Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com
_/     Martin Dickson                   Fax  : +64-9-373-0401
       Product Specialist               Phone: +64-9-373-0400


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At 22:39 29/05/2001 +1200, you wrote:
>Do you Mark? This is my caring face about what you want.
>You might try asking.
>No, better yet, grovel.

And why should he? His contribution is just as valid as yours, if not more 
so, being positive in nature.

>How would you prefer to be insulted? I'm quite prepared to offer you any
>variety of insults, if it will make you shut up.

Again, why should he? He has made positive contributions to this list. Keep 
your insult collection where it belongs, and let's get on which the discussion.

Jacqui


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There are reasons why you Carzalans used Brastor as a grain bowl, even
though it was overrun by barbarians occasionally. They grew good grain
cheaply, and got better quantities of grain than Carzalans can from their
relatively poor & rocky soil. They were close, convenient and allied.

Seagate has an unnaturally large popn - its farmers can support ~ 4,000 for
grain without undue difficulty. It is larger than this because Duke Leto has
made it a trading city, due to its location, the guild's off-planar
connections and the large number of idle rich boosting the service
industries (similar to any capital city of a Kingdom).

None of these circumstances have changed, Carzala just can't spend its extra
money locally. Rather than trying to grow wheat on rocks or in forests, try
off-planar contacts, or even importing from further away - the Dark Circle
has not affected most of the baronies too much. It will cost more, but it is
only money.

If this doesn't work, Carzala's popn will decrease naturally to match the
food supply, as its advantages no longer support the extra popn. This may
seem painful, but that doesn't matter.

The forest clearing is to keep refugees busy and off the streets while
feeling they are making a difference - in short, make work - rather than to
grow a lot of grain.

Doesn't anyone on this side of the ocean study food science?

Faith
-----Original Message-----
From: Noel Livingston [mailto:arnauddemontfort@yahoo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, 29 May 2001 5:59 p.m.
To: dq-pub@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: [dq-pub] Hard Facts of Life


Grain prices have risen, this means the very poor will
starve and die unless either
1) They become farmers
2) Grain prices lower ( Cannot be done easily or
nicely )

A very good farm using a three crop rotation ( wheat,
oats ( for horses ) and fallow of fifty acres, about
the max a good farmer can run produces about 20
bushells per acre max off the third in wheat, about a
fifth of this can be sold, about 1/6 is seed grain and

the rest is eaten. Given this every 50 acre farm of 5
peasants will produce 330 bushells of which only 66
can go to market.
Seagate therefore needs about 1450 such farms on over
72 thousand acres (111 sq miles ) of land to support
it in grain alone run by nearly the population of
seagte. ( Barastor only supplied some of our grain
given these figures ? ( how many refugees were there)

Land Clearing 
One man can clear one chord ( 1.25Tons aprox) of wood
a day inc stumpage. Average forest has 35 chords per
acre. We have 90 days in winter.

To clear by axe enough land for just a fifth of
Seagates grain needs would require that 290 farms be
cleared, this is 14,500 acres or 1390 man years work (
we have 90 days of winter before plowing) It cannot be
done nicely ( BURNING is the only option my fellows )

Only about a fifth of the land in the forest will be
flat and ariable ( my guess I could be wrong here ) so
the fire mages will be required to burn to ASH over 22
square miles of land out of 100 square miles the farms
are located on. This is buring 65 thousand tons of
wood !!!!!!!!! Think HUGE fire.

600 plow horses and 300 plows /tools and farming
families will also be needed ( are these available ? )

Arnaud De Montfort, Merchant Adventurer


=====
cheers noel

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/


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>can you please check the minutes and see if the gods meeting voted to change
>the rules on mind speech distance, or whether it was only a directive for
>the clarification.
>
>If the first then this is another change for the next Rule book, regardless
>of whether there is a vote on Sunday or not.

Nope. I can't find any record of a vote being taken.

Keith.


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> There are reasons why you Carzalans used Brastor as a grain bowl, even
> though it was overrun by barbarians occasionally. They grew good grain
> cheaply, and got better quantities of grain than Carzalans can from their
> relatively poor & rocky soil. They were close, convenient and allied.
>
> Seagate has an unnaturally large popn - its farmers can support ~ 4,000
for
> grain without undue difficulty. It is larger than this because Duke Leto
has
> made it a trading city, due to its location, the guild's off-planar
> connections and the large number of idle rich boosting the service
> industries (similar to any capital city of a Kingdom).
>
> None of these circumstances have changed, Carzala just can't spend its
extra
> money locally. Rather than trying to grow wheat on rocks or in forests,
try
> off-planar contacts, or even importing from further away - the Dark Circle
> has not affected most of the baronies too much. It will cost more, but it
is
> only money.
>
> If this doesn't work, Carzala's popn will decrease naturally to match the
> food supply, as its advantages no longer support the extra popn. This may
> seem painful, but that doesn't matter.
>
> The forest clearing is to keep refugees busy and off the streets while
> feeling they are making a difference - in short, make work - rather than
to
> grow a lot of grain.
>
> Doesn't anyone on this side of the ocean study food science?
>

Now I understand!
We go on a multiplanar quest for loaves of bread!
Let's go!
Is edible by humanoids a requirement?

Sven


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Jacqui Smith wrote:
> 
> At 22:39 29/05/2001 +1200, you wrote:
> >Do you Mark? This is my caring face about what you want.
> >You might try asking.
> >No, better yet, grovel.
> 
> And why should he? His contribution is just as valid as yours, if not more
> so, being positive in nature.

He hasn't been positive. He's merely saying that players can enforce
rules on DMs that make the game less fun if players choose.
And, they can't. Players don't have the leverage.

As for you, you offer very little except to be partisan in the interests
of your own characters, and to be blind to the importance of objectivity
as a DM.

> >How would you prefer to be insulted? I'm quite prepared to offer you any
> >variety of insults, if it will make you shut up.
> 
> Again, why should he? He has made positive contributions to this list. Keep
> your insult collection where it belongs, and let's get on which the discussion.

I'll put my insult collection where I want, thank you, Jacqui. And,
frankly, it needs to be piled on top of you, and Mark both.
You're both idiots, and on the few occasions that I've seen you offer
something useful, it has been counterbalanced by your incessant whining.

You don't see this as a forum to tell stories, you and Mark as well, I
suspect, merely see it as a means by which you can increase the impact
of your character on someone's game.

Pure idiocy. Until you have actually taken steps to bloody well grow up
and keep your own interests separate, then you have precious little to
offer.


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Take your medication Jim, and stop putting words into my mouth.

 You may as well interpret my previous emails as starting the Vietnam war -
it would make as much sense.

Thanks for the support Jacqui, but I find that when dealing with spoilt
little children throwing temper tantrums the best thing to do is to ignore
them (hence I didnt respond to tirade #1).

Jim, if you feel somehow obligated to reply with more insults then please
do so outside the list as im sure everyone else has better things to do
with their time than have to read through them. I won't read them either,
but it may help you with your therapy.

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>I'll put my insult collection where I want, thank you, Jacqui. And,
>frankly, it needs to be piled on top of you, and Mark both.
>You're both idiots, and on the few occasions that I've seen you offer
>something useful, it has been counterbalanced by your incessant whining.

More insults? Honestly, I have to say I'm tired of it. And I don't think 
I'm the only one.
Too many good players and gamemasters have left us, and I have my 
suspicions that this kind of behaviour is the cause.
Please, Jim, put the insults back in the box, close the lid, and staple it 
down.

>You don't see this as a forum to tell stories, you and Mark as well, I
>suspect, merely see it as a means by which you can increase the impact
>of your character on someone's game.
>
>Pure idiocy. Until you have actually taken steps to bloody well grow up
>and keep your own interests separate, then you have precious little to
>offer.

This isn't a story-telling forum, it's a rules discussion group. Let's keep 
it that way.

Jacqui


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> Thanks for the support Jacqui, but I find that when dealing with spoilt
> little children throwing temper tantrums the best thing to do is to ignore
> them (hence I didnt respond to tirade #1).

Given this little piece of hypocrasy can you both take it outside.

Mandos
/s


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> 
>  You may as well interpret my previous emails as starting the Vietnam war -
> it would make as much sense.

It does make sense, Mark. 

You seem to live in the expectation that you should be treated with some
respect, yet most of what you have to say implicitly attacks people who
provide you with the game in which you play.
If a DM doesn't want to have a spell in the game, then it won't be.
If I don't like the range on your Mind Speech spell, then it makes not a
jot of difference to me what's written on a piece of paper. It will NOT
happen.
And,if you think that I'm alone in this,then think again. The only time
that DMs follow the rules so blindly that they can be hectored and
bullied into playing to some 'party line' is when they're new to it.
You have NO leverage, Mark. 
And, your attempt to have a rule passed in a way that you like is
completely ineffective, because it depends on the complicity of the
people who DM you to determine whether or not it will happen, even if it
succeeds in this venue, or any other.

> Thanks for the support Jacqui, but I find that when dealing with spoilt
> little children throwing temper tantrums the best thing to do is to ignore
> them (hence I didnt respond to tirade #1).

It's not temper, Mark. It's contempt. I feel very little when I think
about you. I do try to remind myself not to step on you, however,
because I dislike having to clean slime off the bottom of my shoe.

I see, however, that you are in good company. Or as good as you're
likely to be able to get.


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Jacqui Smith wrote:
> 
> >I'll put my insult collection where I want, thank you, Jacqui. And,
> >frankly, it needs to be piled on top of you, and Mark both.
> >You're both idiots, and on the few occasions that I've seen you offer
> >something useful, it has been counterbalanced by your incessant whining.
> 
> More insults? Honestly, I have to say I'm tired of it. And I don't think
> I'm the only one.
> Too many good players and gamemasters have left us, and I have my
> suspicions that this kind of behaviour is the cause.
> Please, Jim, put the insults back in the box, close the lid, and staple it
> down.

Nope. As usual, Jacqui, you're wrong. The reason that there are fewer
players and DMs is because
1) EverQuest has dragged people away from DQ
2) The DQ ruleset is stultified by people who want to keep things the
way they are, or who press their personal agendae.
 
> >You don't see this as a forum to tell stories, you and Mark as well, I
> >suspect, merely see it as a means by which you can increase the impact
> >of your character on someone's game.
> >
> >Pure idiocy. Until you have actually taken steps to bloody well grow up
> >and keep your own interests separate, then you have precious little to
> >offer.
> 
> This isn't a story-telling forum, it's a rules discussion group. Let's keep
> it that way.

Role playing games are a story telling forum. This is just a place that
lets you whine about whatever it is that is currently bugging you.
It has other purposes as well, and they may be productive from time to
time. But, you're contributions have been far too science fiction based,
or far too partisan to be of much use.


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I believe this thread went off track late last night.

Let's try to talk about the comparitive advantages of different ranges of
Mind Speech.

Perhaps someone else who thinks "mid-range" mind speech of > 30'/Rank but
with some limit is a good idea could expound on it?

Andrew


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Jim Arona wrote:

> If a DM doesn't want to have a spell in the game, then it won't be.
> [snip]
> And, if you think that I'm alone in this, then think again. The only time that
> DMs follow the rules so blindly that they can be hectored and
> bullied into playing to some 'party line' is when they're new to it.

Or apparently, like me, a bit dim, lazy, or misguided. :)   My strong preference
in DQ (and I stress in the DQ multi-GM game, not in any other RPG), is to play
the rules as they are written.

That said, I will play things otherwise if I think they're truly stupid, or
disruptive to the game, etc... I'd just prefer not to, as things tend to run
smoother when everybody is playing from the same rules... and house rules are
less convenient in DQ where you can see new players each quarter.  I GM because I
enjoy it, and it is generally an easier job if everyone has the same
expectations. I find telling people that things don't work the way they think
they should to be a less enjoyable part of GMing.

This preference then shades my view of what should be in the rules.  Jim is
happier to over-rule an "official" spell than I am, and so may be less concerned
with what gets published.  (Although, having said that, and despite the number of
times we have ended arguing, I have always found Jim keen to have the published
rules sensible and designed to facilitate the best game overall).

So... back to the OP; Mind Speech.  I understood that the current Mind write-up
proposal was intended to be a major clarification and a way of us getting
consistency with the currently played house versions on Mind rules.

As I said to Mark off the list: "Personally I like 30 + 30, would be agreeable to
slightly higher or lower range, and slightly lower EM.  I would also be agreeable
to it being taken out the back and shot -- but have no strong desire for this".

Ian's write up of Mind Speech is pretty much what I have been playing and what I
would prefer to see as the official version -- so that I don't have to tell a
player that their planar ranged spell, or even their mile+mile version, doesn't
work the way they think it does, and can be lazy and enjoy GMing.

Cheers,
Martin

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_/     Martin Dickson                   Fax  : +64-9-373-0401
       Product Specialist               Phone: +64-9-373-0400


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