Reference..6.3.1 of the players guide

What is the difference between normal and +25% XP
training ?

Does normal XP training exist at all ?

Does rank 0 require a trainer, at 150SP cost, can new
skills not be learn't otherwise (several GMs ive
spoken to say this) ?. 

Assuming a player wishes to take advantage of the
emersion training in languages ( free time) by
training in five sisters / destiny / aquila /
milddlemark / bowcourt or drakenburg, what would be
the travel times / living costs / difficulties /
training available ( +25%, or normal). This allows
learning new languages to R6 while training other
things. 

What is to stop a character getting on a boat,
travelling to destiny ( training on board) then living
their and training himself/herself in skills with free
training in destininan to boot and possibly also
spending 4 weeks learning knowledge skill Destiny.

Cheers Noel

=====
cheers noel

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My understanding is that normal training means you took 'Assassination
for Dummies' out of the guild library, whereas +25% XP means you just
made a dummy and practised assassinating it. I think the 'normal'
training is always available at the guild for any ordinary skill (i.e.
the guild library has the complete medieval 'xxx for dummies'
series.) I've never paid for a trainer for rank 0 - as I read the rules,
a trainer is 150sp per week, or 1200sp for 10% off the rank 0 EP cost.

My take on the 'train in Destiny plan' is:
Yes, you could get the free time in the language
Unless you were training in sailing, navigation or similar, I'd say you
probably only get half time on the voyage - conditions are not conducive
to full time training. (Poor light, cramped space, moving floor,
interruptions due to storms, etc.)
At the other end, if you wanted trainers you'd need to find them
locally. I don't know if Guild Security or the Guild Librarians let you
take 'Assassination for Dummies' on long sea voyages.

Of course, I'm just another player, so my opinions on this matter have
no more weight than yours.


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IIRC (especailly as the only version of the book I have to refer to here at
work is one version out of date)

But the relevant section does not appear to have changed
"5. Ranking (page 23) ...
5.1 Skills ...
If the character is taught by someone of greater Rank
in the skill, decrease any Experience Point cost by
10%. If the character learns from a book (the avail-ability
of which is up to the GM), verbal descriptions
or practices with someone of equal or lesser Rank in
the skill, any Experience Point cost is unmodified.
If the character practices with no useful outside assistance,
any Experience Point cost is increased by
25%. If training is done at the Guild, it costs 150sp × (Rank to be achieved
minimum 1).
..."

Thus

----- Original Message -----
From: Noel Livingston <arnauddemontfort@yahoo.com>


> Reference..6.3.1 of the players guide
>
> What is the difference between normal and +25% XP
> training ?

See Above. But basically +25% is totall bootstrapping yourself ("no useful
outside assistance")

> Does normal XP training exist at all ?

Yes.

> Does rank 0 require a trainer, at 150SP cost, can new
> skills not be learn't otherwise (several GMs ive
> spoken to say this) ?.

By the current rules (which are in error I believe), you should probably pay
for a "trainer" to practise normally, though the convention is that you only
pay for the services of a higher ranked trainer.

**** Rules Clarification Proposal
In section 5.1, Alter the phrase "If training is done at the Guild, it costs
150sp × (Rank to be achieved minimum 1)" to read "If training is done at the
Guild, books and equivalent rank practioners to practice with are subsidised
(ie free to the character) but higher rank trainers cost 150sp × (Rank to be
achieved minimum 1)"
****

> Assuming a player wishes to take advantage of the
> emersion training in languages ( free time) by
> training in five sisters / destiny / aquila /
> milddlemark / bowcourt or drakenburg, what would be
> the travel times / living costs / difficulties /
> training available ( +25%, or normal). This allows
> learning new languages to R6 while training other
> things.

Consult a friendly (or not so friendly) GM.

> What is to stop a character getting on a boat,
> travelling to destiny ( training on board) then living
> their and training himself/herself in skills with free
> training in destininan to boot and possibly also
> spending 4 weeks learning knowledge skill Destiny.

Out of Game:
Only getting a GM to sign off on it.
In Game:  (If you asked me to sign off on it)
Paying passage (If you are hoping to work off the passage, good luck, and no
training during the trip because you will be too busy).
Living expenses in Destiny, or the time costs of staying alive and healthy.
Training expenses (if you don't care for the +25% EP cost) plus the hassle
of finding the resources (trainer / books / etc) to support the training,
plus conforming to their schedule.

Basically at the Guild you get it easy, for those players who don't really
want to work it all out at this level. If you do want to work it all out at
this level, the GM who reviews it and signs off on it, may allow you some
small bonus, like say the immersion training in Destinian and/or the
Knowledge of Destiny skill.

TTFN,
Struan.


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Most places do not allow strangers, even with money, to walk in and learn
their guild secrets in compressed "power-training" courses. This is one of
the major advantages of the guild - no seven year apprenticeships in each
skill.

If a character had friendly contacts in a town who could provide the
training, and had sufficient language to understand the training (at least
Rank4 - understanding in their specialities?), they probably could pick up a
little language as they trained.

Getting training in Destiny would require some Destinian contacts,
expenditure of much more money than usual, enough Destinian to understand
your trainer - they speak such _bad_ common, and an understanding of their
guild structures & politics.

Training discounts - I think you can learn with a book or trainer - if you
pay for a trainer, its -10%. If you have no useful outside assistance at
all, you pay +25%. So there are -10%, +0% and +25% discount categories for
skills.

Andrew
-----Original Message-----
From: Noel Livingston [mailto:arnauddemontfort@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, 13 June 2001 10:30 a.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: [dq] Training


Reference..6.3.1 of the players guide

What is the difference between normal and +25% XP
training ?

Does normal XP training exist at all ?

Does rank 0 require a trainer, at 150SP cost, can new
skills not be learn't otherwise (several GMs ive
spoken to say this) ?. 

Assuming a player wishes to take advantage of the
emersion training in languages ( free time) by
training in five sisters / destiny / aquila /
milddlemark / bowcourt or drakenburg, what would be
the travel times / living costs / difficulties /
training available ( +25%, or normal). This allows
learning new languages to R6 while training other
things. 

What is to stop a character getting on a boat,
travelling to destiny ( training on board) then living
their and training himself/herself in skills with free
training in destininan to boot and possibly also
spending 4 weeks learning knowledge skill Destiny.

Cheers Noel

=====
cheers noel

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One other thing here: It's a big imposition on the GM and the other players
in your group as the GM will probably need to spend considerable time and
effort determining whether you are acting reasonably.  And meanwhile the
other players in your group are getting bored waiting for the game to start.

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Struan Judd [SMTP:neongraal@neongraal.sf.org.nz]
> Sent:	Wednesday, 13 June 2001 11:09
> To:	dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject:	Re: [dq] Training
> 
> 
> Out of Game:
> Only getting a GM to sign off on it.
> In Game:  (If you asked me to sign off on it)
> Paying passage (If you are hoping to work off the passage, good luck, and
> no
> training during the trip because you will be too busy).
> Living expenses in Destiny, or the time costs of staying alive and
> healthy.
> Training expenses (if you don't care for the +25% EP cost) plus the hassle
> of finding the resources (trainer / books / etc) to support the training,
> plus conforming to their schedule.
> 
> Basically at the Guild you get it easy, for those players who don't really
> want to work it all out at this level. If you do want to work it all out
> at
> this level, the GM who reviews it and signs off on it, may allow you some
> small bonus, like say the immersion training in Destinian and/or the
> Knowledge of Destiny skill.
> 
> TTFN,
> Struan.
>


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If someone turns up to a GM having deliberately done this to manipulate the
system then the GM should soundly beat them with a wet Haddock!

The immersion rules are intended to relate to adventuring time.  Where you
are wandering around talking to people.  If you are spending 8 hours a day
busily training with a book or a trainer who speaks your language then you
are obviously not getting immersed in the local culture/language.

The other problems with your abuse of the system are the availability of
trainers and the monetary cost.  The guild has negotiated and secured
trainers for us at a reasonable rate.  We even have the opportunity to learn
multiple trades.
Most people in the world join a guild for life and learn the trades of that
guild over a period of years.  Their lives, fortunes and careers rise and
fall with their guild.  And they Never share their guild secrets and
training with non-guild members.

Any all this is a very long-winded way of saying that you'd thoroughly
deserve to be beaten with a wet Haddock for trying it.

When you think of something that sounds dodgy, try thinking what you would
say if you were GMing and a player came to you with this plan.

Cheers, Stephen.

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Noel Livingston [SMTP:arnauddemontfort@yahoo.com]
> Sent:	Wednesday, 13 June 2001 10:30
> To:	dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject:	[dq] Training
> 
> 
> What is to stop a character getting on a boat,
> travelling to destiny ( training on board) then living
> their and training himself/herself in skills with free
> training in destininan to boot and possibly also
> spending 4 weeks learning knowledge skill Destiny.
> 
> Cheers Noel
> 
> =====
> cheers noel
>


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> When you think of something that sounds dodgy, try thinking what you would
> say if you were GMing and a player came to you with this plan.

Just to be a devils advocate.

As far as I can tell, Dq is not a competition...I could be wrong here.

So if a player came to me with a way to enrich his characters background
with a story of where he went on his travels and how he came to learn a few
skills in order to save a truly paltry amount of either time or EP, I would
sign off no problem.

He gains ranks in a language which is of marginal use and is more for
character development than anything else. He gains skills he could have
gained at the guild and saves say 3-4000sp in an extreme case.

DQ should be about immersing yourself in the world and being a part of it.
Finding ways to rank while adding to the story of your character seems to me
to be a fine thing to encourage.

Mandos
/s


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I don't think that was Stephen's contention.

And, it certainly wasn't what Neil was talking about.

Yes, it's pretty irrelevant if a player finds a way to save a few xp,
and it's kind of cool if they give you a story to support it. 

There will always be rules that don't cover something. Physics is a
field of study that has been trying to explain the nature of the
universe in 25 words or less for years, and looks to be no closer than
it ever was. I strongly doubt that any ruleset can cover anything that
players can come up with to defeat the  game.

That's why there are DMs. And, at the end of the day, a DM isn't just an
administrator of a ruleset. They're the person who determines whether or
not something makes sense, regardless of whether or not the rules allow
it.

I don't believe a beating with a haddock is necessary, especially with
the current shortage of haddocks. A stern, unbelieving look is enough to
quell such a player, I believe.



Mandos Mitchinson wrote:
> 
> > When you think of something that sounds dodgy, try thinking what you would
> > say if you were GMing and a player came to you with this plan.
> 
> Just to be a devils advocate.
> 
> As far as I can tell, Dq is not a competition...I could be wrong here.
> 
> So if a player came to me with a way to enrich his characters background
> with a story of where he went on his travels and how he came to learn a few
> skills in order to save a truly paltry amount of either time or EP, I would
> sign off no problem.
> 
> He gains ranks in a language which is of marginal use and is more for
> character development than anything else. He gains skills he could have
> gained at the guild and saves say 3-4000sp in an extreme case.
> 
> DQ should be about immersing yourself in the world and being a part of it.
> Finding ways to rank while adding to the story of your character seems to me
> to be a fine thing to encourage.
> 
> Mandos
> /s
> 
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Thanks Struan, that new writeup makes more sense. If
on adventure or outside seagate then normally +25%
training costs unless another character is training
the same skill at the same time in which case normal
XP costs. Guilds outside seagate would definitely not
help unless arrangements during adventure ( I agree
with you Stephen).

How much would copies of the "Courtiers Handbook" etc
cost ( 200sp+ or 500sp+ for illuminated copy
..pictures yarhoo) to take on adventure or elsewhere.
We obviously have no "Assasination for Dummies" as
this is illegal and no guildmembers would do this..of
course not..., also carrying it might be a wee bit
risky.

Does this seem reasonable as a guide
Travel times to other places @200 miles a day by sea
or @20 miles by land ( costs say 50 sp/day 2nd class
by sea or 1sp/day by land (rations). No training while
travelling seems ok unless in first class @200 sp/day
on ship at half training time.

My idea is not to somehow "cheat" or abuse the system
afterall gaining language destinian or five sisters or
whatever while paying normal or 25% more xp on other
skills and loosing perhaps a couple of weeks training
due to travelling is hardly power playing. Would it be
so bad if a few players knew extra languages and had
knowledge of areas in the world....

Destiny or Five sisters by ship 1 week @350SP each way
Nothern baronies by land 4 weeks @28SP each way tent
and guild rations walking.

Stern disaproving looks and soggy haddocks are fine,
but Im trying to add something which I feel will add
to character background, I agree with Stephen Martin
that if there is no formal rules for this it shouldn't
be allowed as it will take up GM time in ranking, that
is why I'm posting this and asking the question.


=====
cheers noel

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Struan Judd wrote:

> **** Rules Clarification Proposal
> In section 5.1, Alter the phrase "If training is done at the Guild, it costs
> 150sp × (Rank to be achieved minimum 1)" to read "If training is done at the
> Guild, books and equivalent rank practioners to practice with are subsidised
> (ie free to the character) but higher rank trainers cost 150sp × (Rank to be
> achieved minimum 1)"
> ****

I don't have a Player's Guide to hand but I was doing Ranking last night and I
recall that the Guide says 150sp x WEEKS, except for Rank 0 which is 150sp flat.

Could someone confirm (or deny) this?

X per week makes a bit more sense than X per Rank (although in the case of most
skills that makes no nevermind) in the cases where time is for some reason
shortened (e.g. Mechanician giving 1/2 time on an associated Artisan skill).

Cheers,
Martin


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_/     Martin Dickson                   Fax  : +64-9-373-0401
       Product Specialist               Phone: +64-9-373-0400


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The rules say * Rank, the player's guide says * weeks.
Pick one.

Andrew

-----Original Message-----
From: Martin Dickson [mailto:martin.dickson@peace.com]
Sent: Wednesday, 13 June 2001 2:09 p.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Training


Struan Judd wrote:

> **** Rules Clarification Proposal
> In section 5.1, Alter the phrase "If training is done at the Guild, it
costs
> 150sp ? (Rank to be achieved minimum 1)" to read "If training is done at
the
> Guild, books and equivalent rank practioners to practice with are
subsidised
> (ie free to the character) but higher rank trainers cost 150sp ? (Rank to
be
> achieved minimum 1)"
> ****

I don't have a Player's Guide to hand but I was doing Ranking last night and
I
recall that the Guide says 150sp x WEEKS, except for Rank 0 which is 150sp
flat.

Could someone confirm (or deny) this?

X per week makes a bit more sense than X per Rank (although in the case of
most
skills that makes no nevermind) in the cases where time is for some reason
shortened (e.g. Mechanician giving 1/2 time on an associated Artisan skill).

Cheers,
Martin


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_/     Martin Dickson                   Fax  : +64-9-373-0401
       Product Specialist               Phone: +64-9-373-0400


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<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">This is correct - here is what is in the players guide ...</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">You will get an EP discount of 10% if you have a trainer. Guild organised trainers cost 150 sp per week of</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">training, except for Rank 0, which costs 150 sp. If no training assistance is available at all, a 25% EP penalty is</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">applied, except for Languages, which may not be ranked without a trainer. Some Skills and Languages may have</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">additional EP discounts as detailed in the Rules for each skill.</font>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New"><br>
<br>
I don't have a Player's Guide to hand but I was doing Ranking last night and I<br>
recall that the Guide says 150sp x WEEKS, except for Rank 0 which is 150sp flat.<br>
<br>
Could someone confirm (or deny) this?<br>
<br>
X per week makes a bit more sense than X per Rank (although in the case of most<br>
skills that makes no nevermind) in the cases where time is for some reason<br>
shortened (e.g. Mechanician giving 1/2 time on an associated Artisan skill).<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
Martin<br>
-<br>
</font>
<br>
<br>

On Wednesday, June 13, 2001, at 02:08  PM, Martin Dickson wrote:

> I don't have a Player's Guide to hand but I was doing Ranking last 
> night and I
> recall that the Guide says 150sp x WEEKS, except for Rank 0 which is 
> 150sp flat.
>
> Could someone confirm (or deny) this?

As it happens I both can confirm and deny this. That is what it says in 
the Player's Guide. In the Rule Book on the other hand it says 150sp * 
(Rank to be achieved, minimum 1). Which is almost always the same thing.

> X per week makes a bit more sense than X per Rank (although in the case 
> of most
> skills that makes no nevermind) in the cases where time is for some 
> reason
> shortened (e.g. Mechanician giving 1/2 time on an associated Artisan 
> skill).

except in these cases.

clare


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"Andrew Withy (DSL AK)" wrote:

> The rules say * Rank, the player's guide says * weeks.
> Pick one.
>

Thanks for the replies folks.  Hmmm... so they are inconsistent... oh well...

Shipwright to Rank 4 with Mech time disc =

10 accumulated Ranks x 150sp + 150 for Rk 0 = 1,650sp  (Rulebook).
(10 accumulated weeks) / 2 = 5 x 150sp +  150 for Rk 0 = 900sp  (Guide).

OK... how about I pay 900sp to the Guild and give the remaining 750sp to the
evil beggar cult of Diancecht?  :)

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Though I might ask what everyone should know but I
don't as a Player

Is cazarla part of the Western Kingdom, ie has duke
Leto sworn allegance to the crown ?

Is cazarla a tyranny, ie duke leto has authority
without any superiour ie king or vassals ie barons. No
free cities / no powerful religion. 

Is seagate a free city ( was told no by gms
previously) it is seat of duke leto

Is duke leto married, does he have legitimate children

What is the order of sucession, is it unclear in which
case if anything untoward happens to duke leto, heaven
forbid the western kingdom / church / etc will be
putting forward replacements leading to probable war
of sucession.


=====
cheers noel

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Noel Livingston wrote:

> Is cazarla part of the Western Kingdom, ie has duke
> Leto sworn allegance to the crown ?

No.  Carzala is not part of the refounded New Western Kingdom, nor was
it part of the Old Western Kingdom -- at the time the area now occupied
by Carzala was probably considered "badlands" or part of the Sea of
Grass.

> Is cazarla a tyranny, ie duke leto has authority
> without any superiour ie king or vassals ie barons. No
> free cities / no powerful religion.

Yes.  Carzala is a palatine Duchy, i.e. Duke Leto has is a feudal lord
having sovereign power within his domains.
Not sure about vassals -- I thought that Istus of Borastor was a vassal
but that seems to not be/no longer be the case. There are certainly
Knights of Carzala, but I'm not sure how the lands are held.

> Is seagate a free city ( was told no by gms
> previously) it is seat of duke leto

Correct.

> Is duke leto married, does he have legitimate children

Ummm... pretty sure the answer is yes to both.

> What is the order of sucession, is it unclear in which
> case if anything untoward happens to duke leto, heaven
> forbid the western kingdom / church / etc will be
> putting forward replacements leading to probable war
> of sucession.

Now, this may just be an old Adventurer's tale -- but word has it that
Duke Leto owes his seat on the throne to the Guild, and that before
certain troubles (that the caused or sorted out, I'm not sure of the
details), Carzala was a Barony.

The Western Kingdom has no legitimate claim to the area (doesn't mean
they wouldn't try) but I would suggest that should, heaven forfend,
anything happen to his Grace, a suitable replacement could be found and
supported by the Guild, and their taxes, and their potential firepower.

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_/     Martin Dickson                   Fax  : +64-9-373-0401
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Answers below...

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Noel Livingston [SMTP:arnauddemontfort@yahoo.com]
> Sent:	Wednesday, 13 June 2001 16:30
> To:	dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject:	[dq] Campaign Questions
> 
> Though I might ask what everyone should know but I
> don't as a Player
> 
> Is cazarla part of the Western Kingdom, ie has duke
> Leto sworn allegance to the crown ?
	[Stephen Martin]  No, the Duchy is outside the WK and the Duke is
actively avoiding any questions about where carzala stands wrt the WK.

> Is cazarla a tyranny, ie duke leto has authority
> without any superiour ie king or vassals ie barons. No
> free cities / no powerful religion. 
	[Stephen Martin]  Yes the Duke has no liege lord he answers to, he
does have vassals.  Officially he is the ultimate authority but he is more
enlightened than would be expected in a medieval world and must sometimes
justify his descisions to his vassals/advisors and the guild.

> Is seagate a free city ( was told no by gms
> previously) it is seat of duke leto
	[Stephen Martin]  It is the Capital city (in fact the only city) of
Cazarla.  And if you stand in the Lord of the Bats tower you can see Castle
Chilton (the Dukes home) accross the river.

> Is duke leto married, does he have legitimate children
	[Stephen Martin]  No idea, does anybody know?

> What is the order of sucession, is it unclear in which
> case if anything untoward happens to duke leto, heaven
> forbid the western kingdom / church / etc will be
> putting forward replacements leading to probable war
> of sucession.
	[Stephen Martin]  Related to previous question.


> =====
> cheers noel
> 
> __________________________________________________
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-----Original Message-----
From: Noel Livingston <arnauddemontfort@yahoo.com>


>I'm trying to add something which I feel will add
>to character background, I agree with Stephen Martin
>that if there is no formal rules for this it shouldn't
>be allowed as it will take up GM time in ranking, that
>is why I'm posting this and asking the question.

Yep, and sending the GM an email before you start with a heads-up for this
sort of stuff (if practical) is also good. In any case, offer to wait until
the following week for the GM to make up their mind. The chances of the
difference in skill levels making any real difference is pretty small, and
the GM can always say 'no, I want to get it out of the way now.' Can't do
any harm to make the options clear. Oh and have an idea of what you will do
with your if the answer is a flat 'no'.

I agree that access to trainers is going to be the main problem with this
sort of stuff, and is a good in-game logic for GMs to stop abuses vs
commendable character development. If the're really trying it on, let them
travel, spend a while trying to find a trainer, get beaten up by the guild
minders, and sent home - less a bit of cash, and a bunch of time. "Feeling
lucky, punk?" :-)


Struan said:
>By the current rules (which are in error I believe), you should probably
pay
>for a "trainer" to practise normally, though the convention is that you
only
>pay for the services of a higher ranked trainer.

>**** Rules Clarification Proposal
>In section 5.1, Alter the phrase "If training is done at the Guild, it
costs
>150sp × (Rank to be achieved minimum 1)" to read "If training is done at
the
>Guild, books and equivalent rank practioners to practice with are
subsidised
>(ie free to the character) but higher rank trainers cost 150sp × (Rank to
be
>achieved minimum 1)"
>****

The bit about the books seems good, but I'm not sure about the "equivalent
rank practioners" bit. The trainer still wants to be paid, regardless of the
relative rank of the student. I can't see the justification for the (cash
short) Guild to subsidize in these circumstances either.

Is it assumed that there is always some other adventurer around who wants to
rank the same skill (it not generally being practical to find a 'matching'
PC in the 'real' world)?

Note that some skills are more practical than others to book learn without
some other person to at least bounce ideas off and compare notes.


Noel said:
>How much would copies of the "Courtiers Handbook" etc
>cost ( 200sp+ or 500sp+ for illuminated copy
>..pictures yarhoo)

Darien has a selection of prints suitable for _that_ section. Of course, if
you want to discuss putting your urges to good use, come and have a
chat.....

Cheers
Errol (who is now working, and not getting the list at work, BTW)


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