Well, because it would ADD something to the game.

And, making it weaker doesn't do anything to game balance.

And, it justifies the high EM cost. You may say it's not worth worry
about, but, most Mind Mages resent having to buy it, when E&E mages get
it as a general knowledge spell...

In any case, I will continue to rule that it's a spell that provides
little manipulation, and allow mind mages to do more with their spell,
whatever is decided.

"Andrew Withy (DSL AK)" wrote:
> 
> Would much prefer that E&E and min spells worked identically. Why
> differentiate? The EM difference is not huge, (150-285 vs 250), and the Mind
> version actually has a higher BC!.
> 
> Andrew
> -----Original Message-----
> 
> hi there
> 
> it has been pointed out that the name "Wizards Hands" suggests fine motor
> controls. This was not the intention.
> 
> alternatives have been proposed : "Wizards Thumbs"; "Clutz Hands"; "Wizard's
> Push"; "Wizards Force"
> 
> E&E
> Telekinesis (G-2)
> Range: 15 feet + 15 / Rank
> Duration: 10 seconds + 10 / Rank
> Experience Multiple: 300
> Base Chance: 20%
> Resist: None
> Storage: Investment, Ward
> Target: Entity or object
> Effects: Allows the Adept to lift a target of weight up to 2 pounds and move
> it at the rate of 2 TMR. For each Rank of the spell Adept may move an
> addi-tional 5 pounds or increase the speed by an additional 3 TMR.
> 
> It has also been suggested that a sentence be added, something like "The
> spell only allows gross movements, and does not afford fine scale
> manipulations."
> 
> Statistics, and other lies...
> E&E TK EM of 300 (minimum MA of 18 gives a ranking discount of atleast 15% =
> maximum effective EM of 255)
> Mind TK is special knowledge EM of 250 fixed.
> 
> Mind Base change of 25% vs E&E 20% - more than made up for by difference in
> MA and twice fatigue costs.
> 
> HOWEVER, if any complaints arise from a comparision between colleges, I have
> a list of complaints about MIND being under spec, over cost, improper scope
> and untimely (typical IT project really...). See the attachment (assuming
> your isp allows files of this size...)
> 
> Ian
> 
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Ian Wood & Ellen Hume & Adara Wood wrote:

> I propose the name for Wiccan Mind Cloak change to 'Dream Sleep'

Hi Ian,

As the spell in question has nothing to do with dreams or sleeping this
name is a bit misleading unless you were also planning on altering the
effects to do something other than concealing/disguising minds.

If you are adopting "Mind Shield" for the Mind College, then it would be
appropriate to leave the Wiccan one as "Mind Cloak".

Mind Cloak = Protection vs. Telepathy, etc.
Mind Shield = Everything Mind Cloak does + MR bonus vs. Mental Attack,
etc.

Cheers,
Martin

--

 _/_/  Peace Software New Zealand Ltd   Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com
_/     Martin Dickson                   Fax  : +64-9-373-0401
       Product Specialist               Phone: +64-9-373-0400


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

What do gms think of giving training time (at +25% EP
self taught ) in artisan calligrapher/illuminator to
scribes while on adventure as standard. 

=====
cheers noel

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Noel Livingston wrote:

> What do gms think of giving training time (at +25% EP self taught ) in
> artisan calligrapher/illuminator to scribes while on adventure as
> standard.

Party Leader:  "Everyone attack the troll before it kills us all!"
Scribe: "Just a mo' boss, I'm waiting for the blue paint to set and I'm
half way through applying the gold leaf".

The art of the Calligrapher is to create pages of luminous beauty with
witty marginal animals.  The art of being an adventuring Scribe is to
get down semi-legible chicken scratchings whilst avoiding being eaten,
and preventing the rest of the party using your vellum for soft loo
paper.  Once back in civilized realms the spidery ramblings may be
turned over to professionals.

--

 _/_/  Peace Software New Zealand Ltd   Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com
_/     Martin Dickson                   Fax  : +64-9-373-0401
       Product Specialist               Phone: +64-9-373-0400


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

>alternatives have been proposed : "Wizards Thumbs"; "Clutz Hands"; "Wizard's
>Push"; "Wizards Force"

I really dislike using "Wizard" (and for that matter "witch") in spell
names.  It doesn't sit right when playing a character of the opposite sex -
because Wizards are still male, and witches female as far as I'm concerned.

As alternative, "Remote force", if change is required.

Regards
Sally


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Sally Jackson wrote:

> I really dislike using "Wizard" (and for that matter "witch") in spell names.
> It doesn't sit right when playing a character of the opposite sex - because
> Wizards are still male, and witches female as far as I'm concerned.

"Witchsight" seems slightly different to "Wizard's Eye", for example, at least
IMO.  Witchcraft is a fairly gender neutral term -- despite "Witch" being
primarily female -- as are the other compounds such as "witchery", "bewitch",
etc, and I tend to think that spills over into "witchsight"  (Compare
"Witchsight" vs. "Witch's Sight").  Ehhh... all very subjective I guess.

Aside:  Merriam-Webster On-line:

witch
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English wicche, from Old English wicca, masculine, wizard &
wicce, feminine, witch...
1 : one that is credited with usually malignant supernatural powers; especially :
a woman practicing usually black witchcraft...
4 : a practitioner of Wicca

--

 _/_/  Peace Software New Zealand Ltd   Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com
_/     Martin Dickson                   Fax  : +64-9-373-0401
       Product Specialist               Phone: +64-9-373-0400


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Sally Jackson wrote:

> >alternatives have been proposed : "Wizards Thumbs"; "Clutz Hands"; "Wizard's
> >Push"; "Wizards Force"
>
> I really dislike using "Wizard" (and for that matter "witch") in spell
> names.  It doesn't sit right when playing a character of the opposite sex -
> because Wizards are still male, and witches female as far as I'm concerned.
>
> As alternative, "Remote force", if change is required.
>

"Mage" and "adept" are non-sexist, so we could have a "Mage Force" spell. (It
probably summons a squad of 2 to 4 mages wearing blue on a black-and-white
flying carpet with flashing red and blue lights.)

The use of "witch" in spell names is fine (in my opinion) if the spell is
specific to the college of witchcraft. If you have a male witch, you deserve to
be uncomfortable about it. (Oops - I'm slipping into character there.)

Michael W.


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

A name just has to evoke something that sounds cool.

It doesn't have to follow something like the Microsoft reporting
scheme...

There should never be a Mind Cloak 1.4, for example.

I believe that he simply mistyped, and meant to say 'Dream Shield' or
some such. I don't have a problem with that name.

I don't actually have a problem with Mind Cloak, either. Except that
it's boring.


Martin Dickson wrote:
> 
> Ian Wood & Ellen Hume & Adara Wood wrote:
> 
> > I propose the name for Wiccan Mind Cloak change to 'Dream Sleep'
> 
> Hi Ian,
> 
> As the spell in question has nothing to do with dreams or sleeping this
> name is a bit misleading unless you were also planning on altering the
> effects to do something other than concealing/disguising minds.
> 
> If you are adopting "Mind Shield" for the Mind College, then it would be
> appropriate to leave the Wiccan one as "Mind Cloak".
> 
> Mind Cloak = Protection vs. Telepathy, etc.
> Mind Shield = Everything Mind Cloak does + MR bonus vs. Mental Attack,
> etc.
> 
> Cheers,
> Martin
> 
> --
> 
>  _/_/  Peace Software New Zealand Ltd   Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com
> _/     Martin Dickson                   Fax  : +64-9-373-0401
>        Product Specialist               Phone: +64-9-373-0400
> 
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

I think you can safely regard that particular derivation of the words
wizard and witch as pretty unlikely to be accurate.

There are other derivations that offer a lot more in terms of
authoritative sourcing that suggest that the roots of the words are
entirely different, and in fact may not even share a common root at all.

Martin Dickson wrote:
> 
> Sally Jackson wrote:
> 
> > I really dislike using "Wizard" (and for that matter "witch") in spell names.
> > It doesn't sit right when playing a character of the opposite sex - because
> > Wizards are still male, and witches female as far as I'm concerned.
> 
> "Witchsight" seems slightly different to "Wizard's Eye", for example, at least
> IMO.  Witchcraft is a fairly gender neutral term -- despite "Witch" being
> primarily female -- as are the other compounds such as "witchery", "bewitch",
> etc, and I tend to think that spills over into "witchsight"  (Compare
> "Witchsight" vs. "Witch's Sight").  Ehhh... all very subjective I guess.
> 
> Aside:  Merriam-Webster On-line:
> 
> witch
> Function: noun
> Etymology: Middle English wicche, from Old English wicca, masculine, wizard &
> wicce, feminine, witch...
> 1 : one that is credited with usually malignant supernatural powers; especially :
> a woman practicing usually black witchcraft...
> 4 : a practitioner of Wicca
> 
> --
> 
>  _/_/  Peace Software New Zealand Ltd   Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com
> _/     Martin Dickson                   Fax  : +64-9-373-0401
>        Product Specialist               Phone: +64-9-373-0400
> 
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Ooops, apologies for the confusion, it's probably clearer at M-W with italics in all
the right places.  I don't think M-W meant to suggest they're the same word/same root.

M-W gives the root of Wizard as being from Middle English "wys" wise.  In the witch
definition I think they are just showing wicca as the masculine being the equivalent of
wizard.

The reason I put the defn in the message was to show that the modern witch is derived
from both a masculine and feminine word.

Cheers,
Martin

---

Jim Arona wrote:

> I think you can safely regard that particular derivation of the words
> wizard and witch as pretty unlikely to be accurate.
>
> There are other derivations that offer a lot more in terms of
> authoritative sourcing that suggest that the roots of the words are
> entirely different, and in fact may not even share a common root at all.
>
>
> > Aside:  Merriam-Webster On-line:
> >
> > witch
> > Function: noun
> > Etymology: Middle English wicche, from Old English wicca, masculine, wizard &
> > wicce, feminine, witch...

--

 _/_/  Peace Software New Zealand Ltd   Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com
_/     Martin Dickson                   Fax  : +64-9-373-0401
       Product Specialist               Phone: +64-9-373-0400


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Jim Arona wrote:

> A name just has to evoke something that sounds cool.

True.  It would also be best if it provides an affordance or clue as to what
the magic does... or at least is not misleading.

Telekinetic Rage is a good name as it suggests the mechanism by which the
force works (discussion of the use of pseudo-scientific/parapsychological
terms in fantasy games aside) and that there is great destructive force at
work -- nobody is going to mistake it for a transport spell.... which is what
happened with the original Wind Walking... 2% BC and allowed the caster to
propel the target through the air.  The name suggested transport, the stats
implied attack.

Anyhoo... I just think that spells with "Dream" in the title should do
something with dreams.

--

 _/_/  Peace Software New Zealand Ltd   Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com
_/     Martin Dickson                   Fax  : +64-9-373-0401
       Product Specialist               Phone: +64-9-373-0400


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Name Suggestion : How about "Secret Thoughts" or "Hidden Thinking"
Cheers G.

 -----Original Message-----
From: 	owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz]  On Behalf Of
Jim Arona
Sent:	Monday, 25 June 2001 2:38 p.m.
To:	dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject:	Re: [dq] Wiccan Spell [was Re: re-align other colleges to Mind]

A name just has to evoke something that sounds cool.

It doesn't have to follow something like the Microsoft reporting
scheme...

There should never be a Mind Cloak 1.4, for example.

I believe that he simply mistyped, and meant to say 'Dream Shield' or
some such. I don't have a problem with that name.

I don't actually have a problem with Mind Cloak, either. Except that
it's boring.


Martin Dickson wrote:
>
> Ian Wood & Ellen Hume & Adara Wood wrote:
>
> > I propose the name for Wiccan Mind Cloak change to 'Dream Sleep'
>
> Hi Ian,
>
> As the spell in question has nothing to do with dreams or sleeping this
> name is a bit misleading unless you were also planning on altering the
> effects to do something other than concealing/disguising minds.
>
> If you are adopting "Mind Shield" for the Mind College, then it would be
> appropriate to leave the Wiccan one as "Mind Cloak".
>
> Mind Cloak = Protection vs. Telepathy, etc.
> Mind Shield = Everything Mind Cloak does + MR bonus vs. Mental Attack,
> etc.
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
>
> --
>
>  _/_/  Peace Software New Zealand Ltd   Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com
> _/     Martin Dickson                   Fax  : +64-9-373-0401
>        Product Specialist               Phone: +64-9-373-0400
>
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------A61680B38FBE6033F71354B4
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit



--

 _/_/  Peace Software New Zealand Ltd   Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com
_/     Martin Dickson                   Fax  : +64-9-373-0401
       Product Specialist               Phone: +64-9-373-0400


--------------A61680B38FBE6033F71354B4
Content-Type: message/rfc822
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline

Message-ID: <3B36ACA5.1DE52620@peace.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 15:14:45 +1200
From: Martin Dickson <martind@peace.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: gordon@karakakat.co.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Wiccan Spell [was Re: re-align other colleges to Mind]
References: <000401c0fd24$6d5dfce0$0300000a@panama.local>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Or here's an idea:

If the Mind College spell isn't going to be called Mind Cloak (and hence create
confusion by having two spells with different properties and the same name), then
why not just leave the Wiccan one alone.

---

Gordon Lewis wrote:

> Name Suggestion : How about "Secret Thoughts" or "Hidden Thinking"
> Cheers G.
>
>  -----Original Message-----
> From:   owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz]  On Behalf Of
> Jim Arona
> Sent:   Monday, 25 June 2001 2:38 p.m.
> To:     dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject:        Re: [dq] Wiccan Spell [was Re: re-align other colleges to Mind]
>
> A name just has to evoke something that sounds cool.
>
> It doesn't have to follow something like the Microsoft reporting
> scheme...
>
> There should never be a Mind Cloak 1.4, for example.
>
> I believe that he simply mistyped, and meant to say 'Dream Shield' or
> some such. I don't have a problem with that name.
>
> I don't actually have a problem with Mind Cloak, either. Except that
> it's boring.
>
> Martin Dickson wrote:
> >
> > Ian Wood & Ellen Hume & Adara Wood wrote:
> >
> > > I propose the name for Wiccan Mind Cloak change to 'Dream Sleep'
> >
> > Hi Ian,
> >
> > As the spell in question has nothing to do with dreams or sleeping this
> > name is a bit misleading unless you were also planning on altering the
> > effects to do something other than concealing/disguising minds.
> >
> > If you are adopting "Mind Shield" for the Mind College, then it would be
> > appropriate to leave the Wiccan one as "Mind Cloak".
> >
> > Mind Cloak = Protection vs. Telepathy, etc.
> > Mind Shield = Everything Mind Cloak does + MR bonus vs. Mental Attack,
> > etc.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Martin
> >
> > --
> >
> >  _/_/  Peace Software New Zealand Ltd   Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com
> > _/     Martin Dickson                   Fax  : +64-9-373-0401
> >        Product Specialist               Phone: +64-9-373-0400
> >
> > -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

--

 _/_/  Peace Software New Zealand Ltd   Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com
_/     Martin Dickson                   Fax  : +64-9-373-0401
       Product Specialist               Phone: +64-9-373-0400



--------------A61680B38FBE6033F71354B4--


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

On Monday, June 25, 2001, at 02:41  PM, Jim Arona wrote:

> I think you can safely regard that particular derivation of the words
> wizard and witch as pretty unlikely to be accurate.
>
> There are other derivations that offer a lot more in terms of
> authoritative sourcing that suggest that the roots of the words are
> entirely different, and in fact may not even share a common root at =
all.

 =46rom the OED (online):

wizard, n. and a.: [late ME. wysar(d, f. wys, wis, wiss, WISE a. + -ARD.=20=

The pronunciation with voiced s (z) follows wisdom and wise.] =A0(*) 1. =
A=20
philosopher, sage: =3D WISE MAN 2. Often contemptuous. Obs.=A02. a. A =
man=20
who is skilled in occult arts; in later use, a man who practises=20
witchcraft (the masculine correlative of WITCH n.2): =3D WISE MAN 3.
(*)=A0=A0Occas. applied to a woman.

witch (v.1), n.: Now only dial. [OE. wicca wk. masc. (see next).] A man=20=

who practises witchcraft or magic; a magician, sorcerer, wizard. See=20
also WHITE WITCH.

witch (v.2) , n.: [OE. wicce fem., corresponding to wicca WITCH n.1,=20
both of which are app. derivatives of wiccian WITCH v.1] 1. a. A female=20=

magician, sorceress; in later use esp. a woman supposed to have dealings=20=

with the devil or evil spirits and to be able by their co-operation to=20=

perform supernatural acts. See also WHITE WITCH.

So wizards are usually male, and witches usually female although either=20=

word can apply to either sex.

clare


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Getting back to the point made (as the original root of a word and its
'dictionary meaning' is less important than how it is used currently
[1].....

I wonder if the numbers of "wrong-gender" mages (plus female fighters!?!) at
the Guild could be slowly having an effect on language and attitudes, at
least in the southern Baronies (I'm sure it is rather different in more
traditional languages).

This could be manifested in a 'bit of a fuss' when the old fuddy-duddies get
coerced into changing anything, and the 'young upstarts' demand that any
changes reflect the new attitudes.

Cheers
Errol

[1] e.g. the 1929 definition of 'tryst' is simply "Appointed meeting,
appointment" vs the 1988 "An agreement between lovers to meet...". refer the
Purple article in the SGT for a bit of fun with this.
What is the OED entry?

-----Original Message-----
From: Sally Jackson <salient@kcbbs.gen.nz>
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz <dq@dq.sf.org.nz>
Date: Monday, 25 June 2001 11:28
Subject: Re: [dq] name of E&E tk


>
>>alternatives have been proposed : "Wizards Thumbs"; "Clutz Hands";
"Wizard's
>>Push"; "Wizards Force"
>
>I really dislike using "Wizard" (and for that matter "witch") in spell
>names.  It doesn't sit right when playing a character of the opposite sex -
>because Wizards are still male, and witches female as far as I'm concerned.
>
>Regards
>Sally
>
>
>-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>
>


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --