Better late than never...

Weapons should be made to measure. However, DQ rules don't allow for
this and it is assumed that regardless of the fact that a 2'6" hobbit
uses a dagger in both hands in the same manner as a two handed sword it
is (for the purposes of the rules) still only a dagger. This type of
rule is highly desirable in any combat system!!!

Myself, I would feel realistic weapons for a 2'6", 37lbs, PS 27, MD 25
package of aggression would be limited mostly by length. If a 10 stone
person can use a 10' halberd a 2.5 stone hobbit can probably use a
battleaxe. I'd recommend wearing lots of armour as this would actually
increase your mass in a usefull way. If you could double your mass with
armour, you could probably use a glaive.

Quoting from "Paradoxes of Defence" written by George Silver (gentleman
of London in late 1500s).  Silver warns of not using weapons that are
too large for you as they can cause you to get tangled up (which can be
awkward). Note: George Silver was very anti-rapier. He considered that
the Italian schools of defence teaching rapier were incorrect in their
teaching. He went about London challenging Italian fencing masters to
duels, them with rapier, him with short sword. Very few accepted,
possibly because he was a very good swordsman, possibly because being a
gentleman, had they slain him in a duel they would have been executed
for murder.

Silver says: "...& the man of small stature must beware he does not feed
himself with this vain conceit, that he will have his weapon long, to
reach as far as the tall man, for therein he shall have great
disadvantage, both with the making of a strong cross, and also in
uncrossing again, and in keeping his point from crossing, and when a
cross is made upon him, to defend himself, or in danger his enemy, or to
redeem his lost times. Again, rapiers longer than is convenient to
accord with the true statures of men, are always too long or too heavy
to keep their bodies in due time from the cross of the light short sword
of perfect length..."

The following is a mock conversation between a schollar and G.Silver.

<start quote>

Scholar: Who has the advantage in fight, of a tall man, or a man of mean
stature?

Master: The tall man has the vantage, for these causes(23): his reach
being longer, and weapon unto his stature accordingly, he has thereby a
shorter course with his feet to win the true place, wherein by the swift
motion of his hand, he may strike or thrust home, in which time a man of
mean stature cannot reach him, & by his large pace, in his true pace in
his regression further, sets himself out of danger, & these are the
vantages that a tall man has against any man of shorter reach than
himself.

Scholar: What vantage has a man of mean stature against a tall man?

Master: He has none: because the true times in fight, and actions
accordingly, are to be observed and done, as well by a tall man, as by a
man of mean stature.

Scholar: Why then if this is true, that tall men have the vantage
against men of mean stature, it should seem in fight there is no
perfection, other then this, when men of like stature, reach, & length
of weapon, shall fight together, the which will seldom or never happen,
but either in the length of their weapons, statures or reaches (if their
swords should be of just length) some difference most commonly will be
in their reaches.

Master: Yes verily, the tall man has still the vantage, and yet the
fight is perfect, although the men that shall happen to fight, shall
happen to be unequal in their statures, reaches, or lengths of their
weapons.

Scholar: That can I hardly believe, unless you can tell me by art how to
avoid or safely defend my self, being but a man of mean stature, against
a tall man.

Master: I will tell you. There belongs unto this art of defence only to
be used with the feet, progression, regression, traversing, and treading
of grounds. In any of these you playing the part of the patient, or
patient agent, your feet are swifter in their motion than are the
agents, because his weight and number of his feet in his coming in to
win the place to strike or thrust home, are greater than yours, and
therefore the true time is yours to avoid him, or safely to defend
yourself. So the art is still true, and the tall man has still the
vantage.

Scholar: Yet I am not fully satisfied herein, because you tell me still
that the tall man has the vantage, and notwithstanding you say the art
is true, wherein then has the tall man the vantage, when by your art you
can defend yourself against him?

Master: I will satisfy you herein thus. The tall man has the vantage, he
can maintain his fight, both by nature and by art, with more ease than
can the man of mean stature, because the man of mean stature has thereby
a further course with his feet to pass to the place, wherein he may
strike or thrust home, and in winning of that place, is driven by art to
come guarded under his wards to defend himself, because in the time of
his coming, the tall man may have both naturally or artificially strike
or thrust home, in which time, if the man of mean stature should fail in
the least iota of his art, he should be in great danger of death or
hurt. But the tall man can naturally(24) and safely come to the true
place open, without any artificial wards at all, and therein also
endanger the other, or drive him still to traverse his ground, with all
the artificial skill that he has to defend himself, and all this the
tall man does by reason of his length of weapon, large pace, short
course, and long reach, with great safety, pleasure and ease. And for
those causes the tall man has still the vantage of men of mean stature,
and not withstanding the noble science of defence most perfect and good.

 <end quote>

Complete text available at http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/paradoxes.html


----- Original Message -----
From: Clare West <clare@cs.auckland.ac.nz>
To: <dq@dq.sf.org.nz>
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2001 3:09 PM
Subject: Re: [dq] weapons


>
> On Tuesday, June 19, 2001, at 02:45  PM, Andrew Withy (DSL AK) wrote:
>
> > Without wanting to get into a rules change discussion about small
> > people and weapons, I'd like a range of opinions on reasonable
weapons
> > for a specific halfling character.
> >
> > I play a tiny female halfling - 2'6", 37lbs. Up until now she has
been
> > using a dagger in two hands, as the dagger is 18" long, or 60% of
her
> > height, and has increased her strength from 5 to 7.
> >
> > However, she now can increase her strength to PS 27 for large chunks
of
> > the day, which with MD 25 allows her to use any weapon except giant
> > weapons, lance and longbow.
> >
> > What is reasonable for a person of her size, given she can lift 6
times
> > her own weight?
> >
> > Short sword? Sabre? rapier? H&aHalf?
> > hand axe ? battle axe? great axe?
> > javelin? spear? glaive?
>
> I agree with Martin that stabby (A class) weapons would make the most
> sense when regarding how the physics work. Perhaps slashy weapons
> specially made with counterweights on the end would work - let the
> weapon provide the weight required rather than you. But I'm no
> mechanician,
>
> clare
>
>
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>


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At 15:25 21/07/01 +1200, you wrote:
>Myself, I would feel realistic weapons for a 2'6", 37lbs, PS 27, MD 25
>package of aggression would be limited mostly by length. If a 10 stone
>person can use a 10' halberd a 2.5 stone hobbit can probably use a
>battleaxe. I'd recommend wearing lots of armour as this would actually
>increase your mass in a usefull way. If you could double your mass with
>armour, you could probably use a glaive.

I'd want to tackle such a hobbit with a warhammer. Can anyone say "Fore!"

Jacqui


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The current write-up of Agony is as follows:

Agony (S-1)
Range: 30 feet + 15 / Rank
Duration: 10 seconds + 10 / Rank
Experience Multiple: 350
Base Chance: 10%
Resist: Active, Passive
Storage: Investment, Ward, Magical Trap
Target: Area
Effects: This spell causes all entities in the affected area, except the=20
Adept, to suffer extreme agony. Entities who fail to resist may only take=20
Pass actions for the duration of the spell, or until such time as they=20
leave the area of effect. Entities who successfully resist reduce all=20
Strike Chances by 30, and take twice as long to perform any action. Note=20
that Mind Mages gain a bonus to resist this spell equal to 2 =D7 Rank with=
=20
their Talent of Resisting Pain.

The bizarre thing about this spell is the number of people you find=20
deliberately failing to resist - because then they can run away! At full=20
TMR and not slowed. Once out of range they can shoot back with relative=20
impunity. Of course those who did resist have probably been killed by the=20
necromancer's undead minions - who, of course, do not feel pain, aren't=20
slowed, and don't have 30% off their strike chances. Heroic? Not!

The intent of the spell is clearly to generate an area of pain around the=20
necromancer. It feels like a concentration effect to me. It's certainly odd=
=20
that it doesn't go away when the necromancer does.
Now we'll assume that if you resist you still get some pain effect. What=20
will the pain do? It'll be distracting, it'll be harder to do stuff, you'll=
=20
loose some of your edge, but if you grit your teeth you should be able to=20
fight back. So let's take out the automatic slowed, reduce initiative a=20
bit, make it harder to concentrate, and put some willpower checks in there.=
=20
Try this:

Agony (S-1)
Range: 15 feet + 5/Rank
Duration: Concentration; maximum of 10 seconds + 10 / Rank
Experience Multiple: 350
Base Chance: 10%
Resist: Active, Passive
Storage: Investment, Ward, Magical Trap
Target: Area
Effects: This spell causes all entities in the affected area, except the=20
Adept, to suffer extreme agony.
Entities who fail to resist must reduce their initiative by twice the rank=
=20
of the spell, and make a once times willpower check to take any action for=
=20
the duration of the spell, or until such time as they leave the area of=
 effect.
Entities who successfully resist must reduce their initiative by the rank=20
of the spell, and make a three times willpower check to perform any action=
=20
for the duration of the spell, or until such time as they leave the area of=
=20
effect.
Mind Mages gain a bonus to these willpower checks equal to 10% + 2 =D7 Rank=
=20
with their Talent of Resisting Pain.

Jacqui


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Windstorm (S-16)
Range: 30 feet + 30 / Rank
Duration: 10 seconds + 10 / Rank
Experience Multiple: 200
Base Chance: 40%
Resist: None
Storage: Investment, Ward, Magical Trap
Target: Area
Effects: The Adept creates a windstorm of Force 9 centred on the Adept and=
=20
extending out to the full range of the spell. Once cast the Windstorm will=
=20
not move. The winds in the area of a windstorm are random and violent, they=
=20
do not prevail in a particular direction. All entities within this area=20
except the Adept and those in the same hex must check against 2 =D7=
 (Physical=20
Strength + Agility) - 2 =D7 Rank, every pulse, to regain their feet and/or=
=20
remain upright. Every time an entity within the area falls prone, they take=
=20
[D - 2]
damage. This damage is physical. For the duration of this spell they have=20
their TMR halved. All entities attempting to use missile or thrown weapons=
=20
through or inside the area of effect have their Base Chance reduced by 5=20
per every 2 hexes of Windstorm travelled through.

The "we all fall down spell". Against an easily achievable (EM=3D200) Rank=
 10=20
in the spell, with average strength and agility, say a total of 30, a=20
character will fall down on a roll of 40 or worse, take damage, and have to=
=20
do it again. A character with good stats, total 40, will fall down on 60 or=
=20
worse. To make matters worse, consider what happens when the spell is cast=
=20
on sand or snow, ruining visibility as well. We won't mention the huge area=
=20
of effect. 330ft radius at rank 10!
The problems with this spell have been exacerbated with the decision to=20
prevent mages from casting in a prone position. This means the only real=20
way to combat the Air mage is to crawl close enough and grapple!

I'm going to suggest that this spell be modified as follows:

Windstorm (S-16)
Range: 30 feet + 5/Rank (so it doesn't take out entire armies)
Duration: Concentration; Maximum of 10 seconds + 10 / Rank (so that if you=
=20
stun the adept it goes away)
Experience Multiple: 200
Base Chance: 40% (perhaps this should be reduced)
Resist: None
Storage: Investment, Ward, Magical Trap
Target: Area
Effects: The Adept creates a windstorm of Force 9 centred on the Adept and=
=20
extending out to the full range of the spell. Once cast the Windstorm will=
=20
not move. The winds in the area of a windstorm are random and violent, they=
=20
do not prevail in a particular direction. All entities within this area=20
except the Adept and those in the same hex must check against 2 =D7=
 (Physical=20
Strength + Agility) - 2 =D7 Rank, every pulse, to move from hex to hex, or=
=20
engage in melee combat. If an entity fails this check, it falls prone.=20
Every time an entity within the area falls prone, they take [D - 4] damage.=
=20
This damage is physical. For the duration of this spell these entities have=
=20
their normal TMR halved (crawling is unaffected). All entities attempting=20
to use missile or thrown weapons through or inside the area of effect have=
=20
their Base Chance reduced by 5 per every 2 hexes of Windstorm travelled=20
through. Any entity other than the adept attempting to cast a spell within=
=20
the area must make a concentration check.

Now, if you stay put you can act, even though you're penalised when it=20
comes to missiles and spells. Try and move, though, and the falling down=20
still happens.=20


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Pointless change

The spell has been in it's current form 5 or 6 years now IIRC and there have been
no compalints about it.

It is one of the reasons necromancers are near the top of everybodys kill list.

It does not need changing.

Scott

Jacqui Smith wrote:

> The current write-up of Agony is as follows:
>
> Agony (S-1)
> Range: 30 feet + 15 / Rank
> Duration: 10 seconds + 10 / Rank
> Experience Multiple: 350
> Base Chance: 10%
> Resist: Active, Passive
> Storage: Investment, Ward, Magical Trap
> Target: Area
> Effects: This spell causes all entities in the affected area, except the
> Adept, to suffer extreme agony. Entities who fail to resist may only take
> Pass actions for the duration of the spell, or until such time as they
> leave the area of effect. Entities who successfully resist reduce all
> Strike Chances by 30, and take twice as long to perform any action. Note
> that Mind Mages gain a bonus to resist this spell equal to 2 × Rank with
> their Talent of Resisting Pain.
>
> The bizarre thing about this spell is the number of people you find
> deliberately failing to resist - because then they can run away! At full
> TMR and not slowed. Once out of range they can shoot back with relative
> impunity. Of course those who did resist have probably been killed by the
> necromancer's undead minions - who, of course, do not feel pain, aren't
> slowed, and don't have 30% off their strike chances. Heroic? Not!
>
> The intent of the spell is clearly to generate an area of pain around the
> necromancer. It feels like a concentration effect to me. It's certainly odd
> that it doesn't go away when the necromancer does.
> Now we'll assume that if you resist you still get some pain effect. What
> will the pain do? It'll be distracting, it'll be harder to do stuff, you'll
> loose some of your edge, but if you grit your teeth you should be able to
> fight back. So let's take out the automatic slowed, reduce initiative a
> bit, make it harder to concentrate, and put some willpower checks in there.
> Try this:
>
> Agony (S-1)
> Range: 15 feet + 5/Rank
> Duration: Concentration; maximum of 10 seconds + 10 / Rank
> Experience Multiple: 350
> Base Chance: 10%
> Resist: Active, Passive
> Storage: Investment, Ward, Magical Trap
> Target: Area
> Effects: This spell causes all entities in the affected area, except the
> Adept, to suffer extreme agony.
> Entities who fail to resist must reduce their initiative by twice the rank
> of the spell, and make a once times willpower check to take any action for
> the duration of the spell, or until such time as they leave the area of effect.
> Entities who successfully resist must reduce their initiative by the rank
> of the spell, and make a three times willpower check to perform any action
> for the duration of the spell, or until such time as they leave the area of
> effect.
> Mind Mages gain a bonus to these willpower checks equal to 10% + 2 × Rank
> with their Talent of Resisting Pain.
>
> Jacqui
>
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