Rune
There is a version floating around which I believe that Keesha is
playtesting.  I haven't heard anything from 'Board, GM's of Keesha, or
fellow party members as to how this is going.
Are there any other active Rune mages currently?  I know Dean (Kilroy) and
Tina (Thorn) aren't playing because of the travel time to games (6hrs and
24hrs respectively) and Aaron (Torrenson) has been AWOL for quite some time.

Binder
I've been making an active effort to play my Binder more in the past couple
of years to test the college a bit and generally it seems fine.  Though
there are a few missed bits and things which don't quite work as follows...
Spells in combat: Not a great deal of use compared to most other colleges,
but that is as expected and is fine.
Spells in general: Great range of utility magics.  Basically a suped-up
swiss army knife.  Also fine.
Bubble of Force: In its current state it can be very useful for scouting,
flying in dangerous terrain, negotiating with the enemy and transport
through hostile environments.  However it is a 2-edged sword, you can look
but you can't touch.  There is no way of knowing whether the area you are in
when it expires is warded/trapped/hostile in a subtle manner.  In summary it
can be very useful but it is also limiting.
Non-golem rituals: I would like to suggest that adventuring sessions be
stretched out to 6 months to allow for the use of more rituals on adventure,
apart from that they seem to be working as designed without major problems.
Though some of the Special Rituals have never been used.
Golems: A great xp and time sink. 
- Often not viable on adventure for logistical/transport reasons which is
fine. 
- Weights of golems are missing, I have a table of weights to include in the
next version.
- Can golems speak?  Easiest answer is Yes.  They must be attuned to a
language, they then speak and comprehend that language at (Ritual Rank / 2)
or Max rank of language whichever is lower.
- Stone golems - the grinding noise they make is too much of a limitation,
it makes them completely impractical to use on adventures.  They are
impractical enough without it due to their size and weight.  Change it to a
-50% stealth penalty.
- Golems in combat.  R&S are annoyance value only.  Clay (at Rank 10 and
equiped to fight) are equivalent to a low level fighter, their main value is
in distracting opposition and holding the line.  Stone, Iron and Wood are
untested so far.
- Golems out of combat.  R&S are easy enough to travel with as they are
small and light but they are of limited use.  Clay golems are ok to travel
with as they can pass casual inspection without raising alarms but they slow
down travel as they are too heavy to carry and don't ride or fly very well.
Stone are virtually impossible to travel with currently.  Iron and wood are
expected to fall somwehere between Clay and Stone.
- Magic weapons.  Are golems considered to be magic weapons in combat?  My
initial ruling was no, you need to equip them with a magic (or silver)
weapon.  Does anyone else have an opinion on this?
- Control of golems isn't great as is.  Small re-write to say that they can
be verbally ordered around (complexity of instruction limited by language
rank, which is limited by ritual rank) or you can actively concentrate to
non-verbally command them and issue more complex instructions (they must be
within Rank * 10 feet for this to work).

If there are any other problems players or GMs have had with the Binder
college then let me know.  Otherwise I suggest we remove the Probationary
status.

Cheers, Stephen.

-----Original Message-----
From: Errol Cavit [mailto:errolgc@hotmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, 4 August 2001 4:21 p.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: [dq] Binder & Rune


>From: ross.alexander@uk.neceur.com Sent: Wednesday, 1 August 2001 00:53
>Hi Errol,
>
>The only issues I can see are the status of Binder and Rune.  Are they
>going anywhere
>in a hurry or should be just leave them as is.
>
>Cheers,
>
>Ross

OK folks, two issues here

I. Rune
Apparently, people were being discouraged / prevented from starting new Rune

characters, as a new version was 'imminent'. Nothing special in regards to 
this status made it to the June 2000 rulebook. I take it we can announce 
this concept (that several people have mentioned to me) as dead?

I understand that there are a very few 'playtesting' a revised college. What

happens to these (this?) characters?

II. Binder (see quotes at end of post)
Probationary until April 2001. We need to decide what happens now. I suggest

a discussion on-list immediately (say over the next week) feel free to pass 
on comments from anyone who doesn't read the list). Hopefully we can come to

a consensus, and update the rulebook (errata) that will be out at the next 
Guild Meeting accordingly. Confirm decision by vote at Guild Meeting.

Cheers
Errol

[From April 1999 god's meeting]
2) Statuses of Probationary Colleges.
It was noted that if any of the colleges are voted out that characters
playing those colleges get their time and EP back for reinvestment. Note:
All voting in order (Pass/Abstain/Fail)

ii) Binder
What was the theme of this College? The cosensus was Enchanting Objects.
Should we extend E&E or keep Binder. Binder was perceived to be a good idea
but still needs work. Golems were currently seen to be a problem. It was
reported that Scott has offered to do a version of the College that doesn't
have golems. The question was asked 'Should people who have characters in a
College be working on that College?' It was decided if they want to, let 
them.
Keep the College in any form (7/3/4)
Upgrade the College to full status from probationary (4/1/8)

[From June 2000 Rulebook, Binder college intro]
This College is a probationary College. This
means that this College is under trial for two years
(as of April 1999). All characters that join this
College do so under the understanding that if this
College is deemed unplayable, it may be with-drawn
or radically changed. At that point, all
such characters may have the EP and time spent
in this College refunded, to be re-spent freely in
another College as if that College had been their
original choice.

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

On Monday, August 6, 2001, at 11:44  AM, Stephen Martin wrote:

>  I haven't heard anything from 'Board, GM's of Keesha

I have GMed Keesha. I felt the change to Rune Portals achieved the goal
of restricting the use of portals. People didn't pop home to sleep.

> Are there any other active Rune mages currently?

Kelsie has a rune mage (Hammer of the Gods) which is played occasionally.

> - Golems in combat.  R&S are annoyance value only.  Clay (at Rank 10 and
> equiped to fight) are equivalent to a low level fighter, their main 
> value is
> in distracting opposition and holding the line.  Stone, Iron and Wood 
> are
> untested so far.

Indeed, but they are relatively fragile, especially against fire attacks
(Go Team Salamander!). They have certainly made several combats
much easier for the party on my current adventure.

clare


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Stephen Martin wrote:

> Rune
> There is a version floating around which I believe that Keesha is
> playtesting.  I haven't heard anything from 'Board, GM's of Keesha, or
> fellow party members as to how this is going.

I'll add my vote of confidence on the revised Rune Portal to Clare's.

> Binder
> - Can golems speak?  Easiest answer is Yes.  They must be attuned to a
> language, they then speak and comprehend that language at (Ritual Rank / 2)
> or Max rank of language whichever is lower.

I'd suggest lower than Rk/2... somehow I think that even at very, very high
ranks in the ritual the golem shouldn't end up a "courtly" speaker with a
command of several dialects.  Rk/3 or (1 + Rk/4) would give a nicer range.

> - Golems out of combat.  R&S are easy enough to travel with as they are
> small and light but they are of limited use.

That's because they got screwed^H^H^H errr... excessively de-powered (IMHO) in a
re-write... although they did admittedly deserve a serious kicking.  Mea culpa.
The original concept was for something more like a familiar than an
organ-grinder's monkey.  They were supposed to be kinda useful for scouting and
getting into small places and have a small amount of skill.  Overall the problem
was with them having too much skill.  Making them more intelligent (say dim
goblin level) and capable of having a single Rk 0 skill might get them back
closer to the original concept without making them terribly useful.

> - Magic weapons.  Are golems considered to be magic weapons in combat?  My
> initial ruling was no, you need to equip them with a magic (or silver)
> weapon.  Does anyone else have an opinion on this?

Sounds fair enough.

Cheers,
Martin

--

 _/_/  Peace Software New Zealand Ltd   Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com
_/     Martin Dickson                   Fax  : +64-9-373-0401
       Product Specialist               Phone: +64-9-373-0400


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Hello all

As it is getting towards the next Guild meeting (and I 'volunteered' to be
chair a few months back), I thought I'd let everyone know where we are with
the new rulebook.

Approved changes to the Rulebook and Player's Guide (up to June 2000 Guild
Meeting) are currently being drawn up in the proper format, and being
proofed etc. (This does _not_ include new Ranger Skill)

Those changes that replace entire rules sections (Mind and Namer college,
Auras & Counterspells, Combat (stun recovery stuff), maybe one or two others
that I can't remember at the moment - don't bother correcting me) will be
printed as looseleaf sections. Changes to individual paragraphs will be
listed as errata, and the errata sheets printed.

Future purchasers of the rulebook will receive the updated version, with
errata included in the main text. These can be ordered in the normal
fashion, but we are not particularly interested in doing a massive
print-and-distribute exercise.  There will also be an electronic copy (.pdf,
and perhaps .rtf - I'm sure Keith would appreciate contributions to the cost
of software to make this practical <g>), but there are copyright issues with
posting it anywhere on the web.

We haven't sorted out costs yet, but be prepared to chip in a few bucks
(including the hall and SGTimes).

Cheers
Errol


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-announce-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

All golems except R&S are a pain to travel with, in the same way as
familiars, followers, dependants and sidekicks. They add to the size of the
party without adding to its interest or interaction. Either the GM gets
_another_ NPC to play, or (as is the case with most golems) a player gets to
play the NPC, which means they tend to do nothing to endanger themselves
until combat, where they give the player multiple actions during the most
delay-prone part of the game - combat, entertaining themselves at others
expense. R&S typically get turned off and carried, and only turned on when
they have something specific to do. This is much nicer for the GM.

Occasionally a particular NPC follower can be used to advance the plot or
add interesting complications without disrupting the adventure, but not
often. Also, NPC followers sometimes are better than the party at key
adventuring functions - which sucks.

This is not a golem problem, but a follower problem, but these rituals are
time & ep sinks which deserve some result, so the GM is less likely to tell
the player to leave their entourage at home. On the other hand, golems
without initiative or intelligence cause less of a problem sinking into the
background.

If you could make golems "instant", they would work better for Adventurers
(as opposed to the sedentary Binder/Shaper or Binder/Mechanician). c.f.
Illusory Animal :).

No, I don't have a real solution.

Andrew

-----Original Message-----
From: Stephen Martin [mailto:stephenm@qed.co.nz]
Golems: A great xp and time sink. 
- Often not viable on adventure for logistical/transport reasons which is
fine. 

- Golems out of combat.  R&S are easy enough to travel with as they are
small and light but they are of limited use.  Clay golems are ok to travel
with as they can pass casual inspection without raising alarms but they slow
down travel as they are too heavy to carry and don't ride or fly very well.
Stone are virtually impossible to travel with currently.


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

I agree on your languages comment.  I was being lazy and using the same rank
as they would get with in-built weapons, but you're right courtly/erudite
golems don't fit the image.

R&S golems do still have the capability to be used for scouting and working
in small spaces, but mainly in conjunction with the Possess Golem spell.
Rather than being a set of skills they are a small size container from which
the adept can use their own skills.
As a player I have used R&S golems and possession to good effect in
appropriate situations but find it difficult and limiting, perhaps I should
get higher than Rank 2 in the spell :).

I'm reluctant to give golems skills in their own right and more intelligence
as that gets into replacing party members.

As a related note to this is the legacy of Golden Hearts from the previous
version of the college.  My initial idea on these for conversion was that
existing ones (which characters had put xp into or received as treasure)
would become items that could be used in conjuntion with a golem.  If you
insert the heart before a golem is animated then once animated the adept may
direct it to use those skills and abilities that are imbued in the heart.
Also if the adept possesses a golem with a heart then the adept may use
those abilities as well.
The ability to make these hearts is no longer in the college, but that
doesn't mean it doesn't still exist in the world at large.  Creation of the
hearts is GM controlled and can be used to achieve certain effects with
golems or can be given out as rewards (either as charged or permanent
items).

Cheers, Stephen.

-----Original Message-----
From: Martin Dickson [mailto:martin.dickson@peace.com]
Sent: Monday, 6 August 2001 12:48 p.m.

Stephen Martin wrote:

> Binder
> - Can golems speak?  Easiest answer is Yes.  They must be attuned to a
> language, they then speak and comprehend that language at (Ritual Rank /
2)
> or Max rank of language whichever is lower.

I'd suggest lower than Rk/2... somehow I think that even at very, very high
ranks in the ritual the golem shouldn't end up a "courtly" speaker with a
command of several dialects.  Rk/3 or (1 + Rk/4) would give a nicer range.

> - Golems out of combat.  R&S are easy enough to travel with as they are
> small and light but they are of limited use.

That's because they got screwed^H^H^H errr... excessively de-powered (IMHO)
in a
re-write... although they did admittedly deserve a serious kicking.  Mea
culpa.
The original concept was for something more like a familiar than an
organ-grinder's monkey.  They were supposed to be kinda useful for scouting
and
getting into small places and have a small amount of skill.  Overall the
problem
was with them having too much skill.  Making them more intelligent (say dim
goblin level) and capable of having a single Rk 0 skill might get them back
closer to the original concept without making them terribly useful.

Cheers,
Martin


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

At your command master...

Instant Golem (S-4)
Range: 10 feet + 5 / Rank
Duration: 5 minutes + 5 / Rank
Experience Multiple: 200
Base Chance: 30%
Resist: None
Storage: Investment, Ward
Target: Object(s)
Effects: This spell is cast to produce a specific type
of golem with which the adept is familiar (must be
greater than Rank 0 in the appropriate ritual) from
materials within their range.
...several paragraphs of detail...

The intention of this spell was to be able to add a golem to the Melee just
prior to or during a combat.  Thinking about it now the Duration should
possibly be doubled so they can be used more generally on adventure.  Or
perhaps a duration of "Until Forgotten" :).
Thinking further, the duration is extended if the target matter does not
need to change shape.  E.g. casting the spell on the decorative marble
statue has a longer duration, provided that you don't mind the stylised
globe on his shoulders.

I don't think this spell has been used by a player as yet.  Thaeuss passes
around the hat... "help a poor Binder play-test his college", "Help feed my
starving golems"...
Thaeuss Instant Golem Fund (TIGF) now at 40sp of the required 20,000.
<grumble> Who set these prices anyway?  Must have been a real fascist of a
GM!! ;)

Cheers, Stephen.
Fascist GM.

-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew Withy (DSL AK) [mailto:AndrewW@datacom.co.nz]
Sent: Monday, 6 August 2001 1:20 p.m.

If you could make golems "instant", they would work better for Adventurers
(as opposed to the sedentary Binder/Shaper or Binder/Mechanician). c.f.
Illusory Animal :).

No, I don't have a real solution.

Andrew

-----Original Message-----
From: Stephen Martin [mailto:stephenm@qed.co.nz]
Golems: A great xp and time sink. 
- Often not viable on adventure for logistical/transport reasons which is
fine. 

- Golems out of combat.  R&S are easy enough to travel with as they are
small and light but they are of limited use.  Clay golems are ok to travel
with as they can pass casual inspection without raising alarms but they slow
down travel as they are too heavy to carry and don't ride or fly very well.
Stone are virtually impossible to travel with currently.


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Stephen Martin wrote:

> I'm reluctant to give golems skills in their own right and more intelligence
> as that gets into replacing party members.

Yes, I can see how a R&S golem with intelligence of "half-wit" and a single Rk 0
skill could effectively replace several guild members I have met/GMed... even
collectively.  :)

--

 _/_/  Peace Software New Zealand Ltd   Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com
_/     Martin Dickson                   Fax  : +64-9-373-0401
       Product Specialist               Phone: +64-9-373-0400


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

I gm'ed 'Board - I found his versino of Rune to be quite good. The rune
armour is pretty damn tough though !!

I much prefer this version to the current one and ask that new Rune PCs be
accepted so that 'Board's version can be playtested further.

cheer sIan

-----Original Message-----
From: Clare West <clare@cs.auckland.ac.nz>
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz <dq@dq.sf.org.nz>
Date: Monday, 6 August 2001 12:14
Subject: Re: [dq] Binder & Rune


>
>On Monday, August 6, 2001, at 11:44  AM, Stephen Martin wrote:
>
>>  I haven't heard anything from 'Board, GM's of Keesha
>
>I have GMed Keesha. I felt the change to Rune Portals achieved the goal
>of restricting the use of portals. People didn't pop home to sleep.
>
>> Are there any other active Rune mages currently?
>
>Kelsie has a rune mage (Hammer of the Gods) which is played occasionally.
>
>> - Golems in combat.  R&S are annoyance value only.  Clay (at Rank 10 and
>> equiped to fight) are equivalent to a low level fighter, their main
>> value is
>> in distracting opposition and holding the line.  Stone, Iron and Wood
>> are
>> untested so far.
>
>Indeed, but they are relatively fragile, especially against fire attacks
>(Go Team Salamander!). They have certainly made several combats
>much easier for the party on my current adventure.
>
>clare
>
>
>-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>
>


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Binder

I'd like to find some way of restoring the lowering of speed to instill flight
as this can be useful outside of combat.  I understand the historical reasons
for altering  it due to abuse in combat.  Write up to be produced shortly.
Is the Wiccan version current with Binder?  If not it should be.

I would also like to increase the AOE or otherwise modify adhesion to make it
more useful in combat.  The intention is to make it more effective as one of
the few catch the enemy without hurting them spells.



Rune

no comments in particular



Scott


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Unless there is some special reason why this particular spell is different to 
all other flying spells, then you can always fly at a lower rate at which you 
fly.

And, typically, it is NOT an argument to offer the fact that the spell doesn't 
do any harm, but simply immoblises. That is the most ideal spell of all. 

Spells that mean you can talk to your victims afterwards are most useful, 
because they mean that you can visit powerful inquisitions upon them, or force 
them to eat  your cooking, or whatever.

In fact, raising the point that it is an area of effect attack spell that 
doesn't leave a pile of charred corpses is a good reason to lower its base 
chance and increase its EM. It is OBVIOUSLY more powerful than other attack 
spells.> 
> 
> Binder
> 
> I'd like to find some way of restoring the lowering of speed to instill flight
> as this can be useful outside of combat.  I understand the historical reasons
> for altering  it due to abuse in combat.  Write up to be produced shortly.
> Is the Wiccan version current with Binder?  If not it should be.
> 
> I would also like to increase the AOE or otherwise modify adhesion to make it
> more useful in combat.  The intention is to make it more effective as one of
> the few catch the enemy without hurting them spells.
> 
> 
> 
> Rune
> 
> no comments in particular
> 
> 
> 
> Scott
> 
> 
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

> Unless there is some special reason why this particular spell is different to 
> all other flying spells, then you can always fly at a lower rate at which you 
> fly.

Should read

..you can always fly slower than the maximum rate at which you
fly


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

-----Original Message-----
From: jimarona@ihug.co.nz <jimarona@ihug.co.nz>

>Unless there is some special reason why this particular spell is different 
>to all other flying spells, then you can always fly at a lower rate at 
>which you fly.
>

[later correction noted, but comments still apply]

You mean can be cast so that its speed is that of some lower rank of the 
spell?
That would be a minimum speed of 20mph - not as bad as Wings at 30mph, but I 
still wouldn't like to do it at night without good moonlight.


Scott said
>I'd like to find some way of restoring the lowering of speed to instill 
>flight
>as this can be useful outside of combat.  I understand the historical 
>reasons
>for altering  it due to abuse in combat.  Write up to be produced shortly.

What was the speed? I would have thought slowing it down (if it became 
likely to keep a flying entity in range of a stationary one for more than 5 
seconds) would make it better (or at least more appliciable) in combat.

I like flying in confined spaces to be dangerous. Bubble of Force 
counteracts this to a certain effect, but you would need to be fairly highly 
ranked in both spells to transport the entire party this way, wouldn't you?



>Is the Wiccan version current with Binder?  If not it should be.
Yes, they are identical

Cheers
Errol

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Could someone with a soft copy of the rune in playtest please post it?

thanks
Errol

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --