Errol Cavit wrote:

> I like flying in confined spaces to be dangerous. Bubble of Force
> counteracts this to a certain effect, but you would need to be fairly highly
> ranked in both spells to transport the entire party this way, wouldn't you?

Yes, and with some difficulties.  BoF never gets very big, so you'd all have to
squash up, and there's weight limits on Flight, and you couldn't fly the bubble
itself as no magic will affect it, so you have to either balance it on
something...  (mental image... PCs in BoF precariously balanced on a flying
carpet that turns suddenly...) or wrap it in something... and then you have
duration to worry about... all up I don't really see this as a worry.

> Scott said
> >Is the Wiccan version current with Binder?  If not it should be.
> Yes, they are identical

Although depending on what is done to the Binder version that could be changed.
The Wiccan version should probably be more personal (broom, cloak, chair) and
the Binder version more group oriented (carpet, four-poster bed, cauldron).

Cheers,
Martin

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> Rune
> There is a version floating around which I believe that Keesha is
> playtesting.  I haven't heard anything from 'Board, GM's of Keesha, or
> fellow party members as to how this is going.
> Are there any other active Rune mages currently?  I know Dean (Kilroy) and
> Tina (Thorn) aren't playing because of the travel time to games (6hrs and
> 24hrs respectively) and Aaron (Torrenson) has been AWOL for quite
> some time.

I have one as well.:-)

I have been working on a revision to the Rune college but got sidetracked by
work. I will resume work on it.

Mandos
/s


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jimarona@ihug.co.nz wrote:

> > Unless there is some special reason why this particular spell is different to
> > all other flying spells, then you can always fly at a lower rate at which you
> > fly.
>
> Should read
>
> ..you can always fly slower than the maximum rate at which you
> fly

Errr... without wishing to dispute in any way the manner in which you run flying
spells, (and without wishing to support the standard ruling in any way), the
standard ruling is that flying spells run at, and only at 0 or the speed cast.
So... Rk 10 Shadow Wings run at 0 or 40 mph.  If you wish to cast them at an
effective speed Rk of 6 that's OK too... then they run at 0 or 36 mph.  It is not
possible to fly at 29 mph, or 4 mph, or 0 mph.

Instilling flight in Binder and Wicca originally did allow brooms that flew slowly,
or carpets that could hover.  This was removed during a re-write.  I don't know
why.

Cheers,
Martin


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jimarona@ihug.co.nz wrote:

> In fact, raising the point that it is an area of effect attack spell that
> doesn't leave a pile of charred corpses is a good reason to lower its base
> chance and increase its EM. It is OBVIOUSLY more powerful than other attack
> spells.

Yay, Jim!   :)

Adhesion should have uses outside of combat... if only from the perspective that
Binder is not a combat heavy (read, "only barely combat capable...") College and it
would be a general violation of their flavour to give them something along the lines
of Agony.

Cheers,
Martin

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Errol Cavit wrote:
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: jimarona@ihug.co.nz <jimarona@ihug.co.nz>
> 
> >Unless there is some special reason why this particular spell is different
> >to all other flying spells, then you can always fly at a lower rate at
> >which you fly.
> >
> 
> [later correction noted, but comments still apply]
> 
> You mean can be cast so that its speed is that of some lower rank of the
> spell?
> That would be a minimum speed of 20mph - not as bad as Wings at 30mph, but I
> still wouldn't like to do it at night without good moonlight.

I mean that when you fly you move at your TMR in combat. Since that is
not the same as any flying spells movement rate, then it follows that
you can fly at less than the maximum speed of the spell.

This applies for any flying spell, unless it actually hurls you across
the sky like a catapult.

If this approach isn't taken, then what happens is that characters
teleport across the terrain, covering huge distance. A speed of 20 MPH
converts into a hex movement of 30 hexes. That means that you can move
inside or outside of the range of some attack forms in one pulse.

Flight is a powerful enough advantage without providing it with the
special ability to move so fast that darts become a waste of time. And,
this applies to Shadow Wings, and all of the other flight options, with
the exception of Levitation and Wall Crawling. 

Originally, the idea of a minimum speed was enforced as a means to limit
players to flight spells as a travel means. But, as the playership aged,
and their characters became more powerful, and could reasonably expect
to get their hands on quite high level Enchantments, not to mention the
sheer amount of magical loot that they were festooned with, the
penalties, such as they were, failed to have much of an impact.

I had the opportunity to observe an adventure with high and medium level
adventurers, before the convention was changed. The high level
characters were never in any danger, because they effectively teleported
something like 20 to 40 hexes away from serious trouble, whenever it
looked like they would get swamped. Whereas, the medium levels got
hammered.

On the other hand, a player is forced to move at their TMR, in the air
or otherwise, and that doesn't change much. Yes, high level characters
have a point or two, or even three of TMR that a medium level character
doesn't. But, they don't have 15 more TMR.

If that's the kind of thing you wish to have in your game, then feel
free. It is, however, pretty unfair.

> Scott said
> >I'd like to find some way of restoring the lowering of speed to instill
> >flight
> >as this can be useful outside of combat.  I understand the historical
> >reasons
> >for altering  it due to abuse in combat.  Write up to be produced shortly.
> 
> What was the speed? I would have thought slowing it down (if it became
> likely to keep a flying entity in range of a stationary one for more than 5
> seconds) would make it better (or at least more appliciable) in combat.

It IS more appropriate, but it's not that much of an advantage as being
able to project yourself the huge  distance across the battlefield.

> I like flying in confined spaces to be dangerous. Bubble of Force
> counteracts this to a certain effect, but you would need to be fairly highly
> ranked in both spells to transport the entire party this way, wouldn't you?

I think it would be an amazing caster who could manoeuvre with a bubble
of force inside a building
> 
> >Is the Wiccan version current with Binder?  If not it should be.
> Yes, they are identical

I have only one thing to say to that?

Why? 

They presumably cast spells in different ways.


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In summary, both spells are fine.  Thought train below...

Instill Flight

What I believe that Scott is referring to is that the original instill
flight allowed you to fly at UP TO xx mph.
This made it about the best flying spell in the game as while it wasn't the
fastest you could fly at between 1mph (or hover under some GMs) and 30+ mph.
This wasn't altered due to abuse in combat, it was altered becuase it is a
more powerful and useful flying than we want in a spell and Binders and
Wicca should not be better fliers than Air Mages.
There was once a proposal that with rank you could increase OR DECREASE your
speed but this was deemed to powerful/useful - and rightly so!
Currently you can vary your speed by re-casting it at a lower or higher
effective rank, unless you have unlimited mana and a damn good BC then this
is fairly impractical.
As both the Binder and Wicca spells are concentration it would be a
reasonable enhancement to allow the caster to actively concentrate to change
their cruising speed to another speed within their range (20mph to 20 +2/Rk
mph).
But allowing them to slow to the point where they can cruise through town or
forest or a dungeon with safety - ABSOLUTELY NOT.

Yes I believe the Wicca and Binder versions are now the same, if not then it
was an oversight which should be corrected.


Adhesion (write-up below for reference)

This is a 175 EM general spell that makes objects/areas sticky.  Each
contact with the sticky surface is resist or be stuck, PS check to break
free.  In general it's an interesting utility spell.  As for combat
application...
Making Hexes Sticky:
Rank 1 - One Hex 10% chance of someone passing though getting stuck,
requires PS + D10 > 12 to break free. - Pointless.
Rank 5 - One Hex 50% Chance, PS +D10 > 20.  - Some value if you have nothing
better to do.
Rank 10 - One Hex 100% Chance (or 2 hexes at 50%), PS +D10 > 30. -
Reasonably effective.
Rank 20 - 2 Hexes at 100%, PS +D10 > 40. - Resist or be sitting targets,
very useful (except against Trolls/Giants...).
Making a Net or Tarp or Sack sticky:
Provided you are careful in its use and don't get stuck yourself, then your
entangling attack becomes much more effective.  Add a
ranger/mechanician/thief to the mix and you could have some nasty ambushes.
Like many Binder spells if you use it in the right situation it can be very
effective.  If you expect it to solve your problems for you in any situation
then it won't work well.

In comparison to other "Capture" type spells, it is closest to Hands of
Earth.  Hands is more effective (more targets, harder to break free) but it
is also a special and it's effect is visible.  The first thing you know
about an adhesive hex is when you step in it.  Also HoE has very little
utility use, Adhesion does.
Compared to Sleep or Mental Attack, they are much better as once they fail
to resist they can't do anything.  An adhered mage can still cast.  But
Sleep and Mental Attack have higher EMs and are the best spells in the game
for capture.  Note they are also single target one-off effect whereas
Adhesion has a continuing effect on all entities that pass though an area.

Adhesion (G-1)
Range: 10 feet + 10 / Rank
Duration: 5 minutes + 5 / Rank
Experience Multiple: 175
Base Chance: 35%
Resist: Passive
Storage: Investment, Ward, Magical Trap
Target: Volume
Effects: The surface of a non-living solid, up to 1
cubic foot (+ 2 / Rank), is magically enchanted to adhere
to any objects coming into contact with it. Once
stuck, an object is released when the spell's duration
expires, or the applied PS + D10 exceeds the spell's
PS of 10 (+ 2 / Rank), which tears the object free (the
durability of some objects may be less than the force
required to tear them free from the spell). Several
individuals may combine their PS to free an object.
Being broken free of the area of the Adhesion, or resisting
a particular contact, in no way protects the object
from becoming stuck if brought into contact with
the affected area again; nor is the spell in any way
broken by having an object torn away; the area remains
as adhesive as before. Except for the crowding
of the area, there is no limit to the number of objects
that may be stuck with this spell. The chance of a
person coming into contact with an adhesive portion
of a hex is 10% / Rank applied to that hex.

-----Original Message-----
From: scott whitaker [mailto:kharsis@ihug.co.nz]
Sent: Monday, 6 August 2001 6:28 p.m.

Binder

I'd like to find some way of restoring the lowering of speed to instill
flight
as this can be useful outside of combat.  I understand the historical
reasons
for altering  it due to abuse in combat.  Write up to be produced shortly.
Is the Wiccan version current with Binder?  If not it should be.

I would also like to increase the AOE or otherwise modify adhesion to make
it
more useful in combat.  The intention is to make it more effective as one of
the few catch the enemy without hurting them spells.


Scott


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If two spells are very similar, they should be identical.

This does decrease some flavour (sure he's 2 ranks higher, but my unseen is
pink), but there are ~ 600 standard spells in the game, plus an additional
0-30 in any given game depending on the level. If someone casts instill
flight, or telekinesis, or evil eye, or mind cloak, or hypnosis, or
darkness, remembering (a) that there are differences between the colleges
and (b) what the differences are is unneccessary extra work for the GM. If
the spells have different cosmetic effects, fine - E&Es' eyes twinkle while
a witch's eyes glow red while casting. However, when the material effects
differ, things get tough for no discernable game benefit.

I'm only a poor GM with an imperfect memory, trying to juggle seven players'
enjoyment and a convoluted plot, and I won't tolerate some "in-game"
reasoning about casting in different ways making my head explode.

But then I lost this "argument" without understanding the reasoning on Mind
Cloak & TK.

BTW, Hypnosis is in Witchcraft & Sorcery - are they being resynched (apart
from the duration) or splitting further? How about another silly name change
for one of the spells?

Andrew
-----Original Message-----
> >Is the Wiccan version current with Binder?  If not it should be.
> Yes, they are identical

I have only one thing to say to that?

Why? 

They presumably cast spells in different ways.


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BoF does allow you to fly though forests (or underground caverns) without
killing yourself however to work well it generally requires Air Mage flight
and one person per bubble.
Binder and Wicca Flight are concentration and careening off trees at high
speed makes concentration tricky.  
Shadow Wings don't fit.
And 1 person per bubble as while the bubble will protect you from impacting
with the tree, it doesn't protect you from your fellow passenger hitting
you.

Also the smallest bubble is 5' accross, most doorways are 4' accross at most
and often require handles to be turned.  This makes navigating any sort of
building nigh-impossible.
And those wonderful momentum absorbing properties it has makes it impossible
to batter your way anywhere.  Love that 2-edged sword :).

Cheers, Stephen.

-----Original Message-----
From: Errol Cavit [mailto:errolgc@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, 6 August 2001 8:09 p.m.

I like flying in confined spaces to be dangerous. Bubble of Force 
counteracts this to a certain effect, but you would need to be fairly highly

ranked in both spells to transport the entire party this way, wouldn't you?

Cheers
Errol


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Oooh oooh, I know.  
Mind Bending
Invasive Thoughts
Schooled Mind
Compelling Words
Spell of Restructuring Thoughts and Desires
Hypnotic Eyes
Intruding Desires
T'sarins Greater Attitude Adjuster


-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew Withy (DSL AK) [mailto:AndrewW@datacom.co.nz]
Sent: Tuesday, 7 August 2001 12:12 p.m.


BTW, Hypnosis is in Witchcraft & Sorcery - are they being resynched (apart
from the duration) or splitting further? How about another silly name change
for one of the spells?

Andrew


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Stephen Martin wrote:
> 
> BoF does allow you to fly though forests (or underground caverns) without
> killing yourself however to work well it generally requires Air Mage flight
> and one person per bubble.

I don't think that would work.

Air Mage flight summons a wind that supports you. If the Bubble absorbs
magical energies, then it's not going to be able to be lifted by the
spell.

If the spell absorbs momentum, then it still won't let you lift the
bubble.

As I read it, Air Mage flight lets you fly around inside the Bubble, but
you can't cast it on the Bubble, so you can't make the Bubbly fly.


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My vote is for the last...AD&D3 just rocks...

My only constructive comment is that the spell should only be castable via
potions or other items requiring digestion (such as an apple). None of this
direct effect stuff.

love, Ian
-----Original Message-----
From: Stephen Martin <stephenm@qed.co.nz>
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz <dq@dq.sf.org.nz>
Date: Tuesday, 7 August 2001 12:32
Subject: Re: [dq] similar spells


>Oooh oooh, I know.
>Mind Bending
>Invasive Thoughts
>Schooled Mind
>Compelling Words
>Spell of Restructuring Thoughts and Desires
>Hypnotic Eyes
>Intruding Desires
>T'sarins Greater Attitude Adjuster
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Andrew Withy (DSL AK) [mailto:AndrewW@datacom.co.nz]
>Sent: Tuesday, 7 August 2001 12:12 p.m.
>
>
>BTW, Hypnosis is in Witchcraft & Sorcery - are they being resynched (apart
>from the duration) or splitting further? How about another silly name
change
>for one of the spells?
>
>Andrew
>
>
>-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>
>


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I was thinking the last one would require a material component of a
billy-club, have a verbal and semantic component, and a 1 to 5 minute
casting time depending of the length of the suggestion.

These <smuck> are <smuck> not <smuck> the <smuck> golems <smuck> you <smuck>
are <smuck> looking <smuck> for! <smuck> <smuck>

-----Original Message-----
From: Ian Wood [mailto:adara@ihug.co.nz]
Sent: Tuesday, 7 August 2001 12:49 p.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] similar spells


My vote is for the last...AD&D3 just rocks...

My only constructive comment is that the spell should only be castable via
potions or other items requiring digestion (such as an apple). None of this
direct effect stuff.

love, Ian
-----Original Message-----
From: Stephen Martin <stephenm@qed.co.nz>
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz <dq@dq.sf.org.nz>
Date: Tuesday, 7 August 2001 12:32
Subject: Re: [dq] similar spells


>Oooh oooh, I know.
>Mind Bending
>Invasive Thoughts
>Schooled Mind
>Compelling Words
>Spell of Restructuring Thoughts and Desires
>Hypnotic Eyes
>Intruding Desires
>T'sarins Greater Attitude Adjuster
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Andrew Withy (DSL AK) [mailto:AndrewW@datacom.co.nz]
>Sent: Tuesday, 7 August 2001 12:12 p.m.
>
>
>BTW, Hypnosis is in Witchcraft & Sorcery - are they being resynched (apart
>from the duration) or splitting further? How about another silly name
change
>for one of the spells?
>
>Andrew
>
>
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>
>


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Jim Arona wrote:

> Stephen Martin wrote:
> >
> > BoF does allow you to fly though forests (or underground caverns) without
> > killing yourself however to work well it generally requires Air Mage flight
> > and one person per bubble.
>
> As I read it, Air Mage flight lets you fly around inside the Bubble, but
> you can't cast it on the Bubble, so you can't make the Bubbly fly.

A really strong Wind Whistle might work... or a tornado caused by Control
Weather... 'course I'm not sure what state you'd be in at the end of the
journey.... or where you might end up...

"Ding dong the Witch is dead...."  :)

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I think saying it absorbed momentum earlier was a mistake.  As that's not
quite what it does.
It absorbs damage and blocks magic.
You can move it by rolling it from the inside or outside, a wind strong
enough to move the weight of the contents given the surface area of the
bubble would move the bubble.

If Air Flight was cast then the bubble then I expect the winds of the world
would come along to try to pick you up and would be stopped from reaching
you by the bubble at which point the force of the winds would move the
bubble (and thus you) but you would lose all fine control of your movement.

If Air Flight was cast after the bubble then it could only affect the Air
and winds within the bubble, you could then fly up and be pushed against the
top of the bubble, lifting the bubble off the ground.  Given that the bubble
is effectively weightless and inertia-less then this is fine (except in
strong winds when the external winds would compete with your internals winds
making it rather uncomfortable).  If you had passengers in the bubble with
you then they would be constantly buffeted by your winds and you would be
lifting their weight with the top of your head (or perhaps shoulders if you
duck in time) - I can't see anyone choosing this method of travel except in
dire circumstances.

So while Air Flight is possible with BoF, contrary to what I said earlier,
it is one of the least desirable methods.

Hmmm.. new best method:  Light Weight (wicker maybe) throne equiped with
seatbelts and 5' roll cage.  Cast BoF around the roll cage then cast Instill
Flight on the throne.  At high ranks in both spells you can have a pillion
passenger strapped into their own seat within the roll cage.  Think I'd
recommend a quick cast of Durability of the roll cage too.  60,000xp and 5
FT later you can take people on joy rides though the forest or the back
allies of Seagate.


-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Arona [mailto:jimarona@ihug.co.nz]
Sent: Tuesday, 7 August 2001 12:42 p.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Binder: Flying with BoF


Stephen Martin wrote:
> 
> BoF does allow you to fly though forests (or underground caverns) without
> killing yourself however to work well it generally requires Air Mage
flight
> and one person per bubble.

I don't think that would work.

Air Mage flight summons a wind that supports you. If the Bubble absorbs
magical energies, then it's not going to be able to be lifted by the
spell.

If the spell absorbs momentum, then it still won't let you lift the
bubble.

As I read it, Air Mage flight lets you fly around inside the Bubble, but
you can't cast it on the Bubble, so you can't make the Bubbly fly.


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At 12:13 6/08/01 +1200, you wrote:

>Indeed, but they are relatively fragile, especially against fire attacks
>(Go Team Salamander!). They have certainly made several combats
>much easier for the party on my current adventure.

Mainly because:

a) the golems are considered expendable.

b) they are immune to a number of types of magic - they don't sleep for 
example.

c) they tie up the opposition in combat, making it more difficult for the 
party to be swamped.

Only in the first combat - against the hobgoblins - did the golems do much 
actual damage.

Jacqui


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At 12:12 7/08/01 +1200, you wrote:
>BTW, Hypnosis is in Witchcraft & Sorcery - are they being resynched (apart
>from the duration) or splitting further? How about another silly name change
>for one of the spells?

I'd suggest Mind College keep Hypnosis, and Wicca either lose it 
altogether, or have a very different version say "Mesmerise" which may 
even  have a material component - I like that apple suggestion.

Jacqui


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