At 17:36 22/11/01 +1300, you wrote:
>Ummm... there's not much difference between an Imp and a 1/2 devil -- except
>that Imps had a bestiary listing (well in the old Summoner) and 1/2 devils
>didn't getting one line in Black college.  Personally, I'd drop 1/2 devils per
>se... can't see they add much.

As it happens I have a photocopy of the old 2nd Ed Greater Summoner - it's 
my only reference for the 72, since they're not replicated in the 3rd 
edition rules which is where I generally find my monsters. In this I 
discovered that a Summoner might be given either an imp or a devil - the 
main difference between the two being that imps have spells at rank 5 and 
devils at rank 10.

I don't know who invented half-devils, but I suspect that devils were 
considered to be too tough, and therefore the half-devil was invented, 
being half as powerful as a devil - irregardless of the fact that someone 
had already done this with the Imp.

Hence, we have two critters of almost identical power, and only cosmetic 
differences.

So, do we ditch the half-devils and bring back whole devils?

Jacqui


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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jacqui Smith [mailto:flamis@ihug.co.nz]
> In this I 
> discovered that a Summoner might be given either an imp or a 
> devil - the 
> main difference between the two being that imps have spells 
> at rank 5 and 
> devils at rank 10.
> 
> I don't know who invented half-devils, but I suspect that devils were 
> considered to be too tough, and therefore the half-devil was 
> invented, 
> being half as powerful as a devil - irregardless of the fact 
> that someone 
> had already done this with the Imp.
> 
> 
> So, do we ditch the half-devils and bring back whole devils?
> 
> Jacqui
> 

Do half-devils have everything (is it just spells, or all magic?) at Rank 5
(like imps)? And is/was this to stop them (or the alternative imp) teaching
specials to the mage?

Just trying to find out what these (potentially ex-) critters are.

Cheers
Errol


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On Saturday, November 24, 2001, at 07:47 , Keith Smith wrote:

>
>> Just a reminder that the guild meeting is in 2 weeks time.
>> 12pm for gods meeting, 1pm for guild meeting at Leicester Hall.
>>
>> Does anyone have anything to discuss at the gods meeting?
>
> I've been considering adding a new Special Knowledge spell to the Water 
> College. It's Armour of Water and works the same way as Armour of Earth 
> except that the target has to be fully submerged (it's no use on land). 
> It coats the target with a 'skin' of water.
>
> If no one has any objection, I'll do a full writeup.

I don't like this at all. I think the Water College has enough spells 
already and doesn't need an armour spell. It has a defense spell that 
works on land (Rain Storm). The fact that they are already gods 
underwater should be enough defense.

clare


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On Saturday, November 24, 2001, at 07:47 , Keith Smith wrote:
>> Also please post if you know you will GM this session (and what level) 
>> so we
>> have some idea of how many last minute GMs we'll need.

I am planning to run a low level adventure this season.

clare


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Just refer to them as one and the same.  They have all the same stats and
abilities but are referred to by 2 different names.
Let the philosophers argue over whether they are the same or different.
But as far as abilities and GTNs go they are one and the same.

Looks like an apple, smells like an apple, tastes like an apple... lets call
it a Krispnjuicy!

btw it should be obvious to all scholars of demonology that IMP is not the
name of one type of demonic but of a socio-politcal group of demonics.  It
is used to describe any demonic of Inconsequential Material Power, Half
Devils are merely one of the many types of demonics that fall into this
category.

Cheers, Stephen.

-----Original Message-----
From: Jacqui Smith [mailto:flamis@ihug.co.nz]
Sent: Tuesday, 27 November 2001 8:59 a.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: [dq] Imps and 1/2 Devils


At 17:36 22/11/01 +1300, you wrote:
>Ummm... there's not much difference between an Imp and a 1/2 devil --
except
>that Imps had a bestiary listing (well in the old Summoner) and 1/2 devils
>didn't getting one line in Black college.  Personally, I'd drop 1/2 devils
per
>se... can't see they add much.

As it happens I have a photocopy of the old 2nd Ed Greater Summoner - it's 
my only reference for the 72, since they're not replicated in the 3rd 
edition rules which is where I generally find my monsters. In this I 
discovered that a Summoner might be given either an imp or a devil - the 
main difference between the two being that imps have spells at rank 5 and 
devils at rank 10.

I don't know who invented half-devils, but I suspect that devils were 
considered to be too tough, and therefore the half-devil was invented, 
being half as powerful as a devil - irregardless of the fact that someone 
had already done this with the Imp.

Hence, we have two critters of almost identical power, and only cosmetic 
differences.

So, do we ditch the half-devils and bring back whole devils?

Jacqui


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Jacqui Smith wrote:

> I don't know who invented half-devils...

The author of the College of Black Magics...

> ...irregardless of the fact that someone had already done this with the Imp.

...who apparently didn't talk to the author of the College of Summoning Magics.

> So, do we ditch the half-devils and bring back whole devils?

Errr... Devils (that is to say "whole devils") have never gone anywhere.  The
question is whether to keep both 1/2 D's and Imps.

Cheers,
Martin

--

 _/_/  Peace Software New Zealand Ltd   Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com
_/     Martin Dickson                   Fax  : +64-9-373-0401
       Product Specialist               Phone: +64-9-373-0400


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> > So, do we ditch the half-devils and bring back whole devils?
>
> Errr... Devils (that is to say "whole devils") have never gone
> anywhere.  The
> question is whether to keep both 1/2 D's and Imps.

This is a pretty pointless discussion. If I as a GM want to use half devils,
I can. What stats and abilities I use for them is up to me, I can base them
on devils or imps or the current half devil rules.

It is an NPC used in many varied ways by different GMs so the rules are a
guideline only anyway.

We lose nothing by keeping them and we gain nothing by removing them.

Mandos
/s


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Mandos Mitchinson wrote:

> If I as a GM want to use half devils, I can. What stats and abilities I use
> for them is up to me, I can base them on devils or imps or the current half
> devil rules.

Or make them equivalent to Godzilla, yes.. fine.  :)

> We lose nothing by keeping them and we gain nothing by removing them.

Well... unless there is a bestiary stats type listing for them currently extant,
then they may "exist" but they have not been standard/main-stream/canon/whatever
since Black became Witchcraft.

Cheers,
Martin

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 _/_/  Peace Software New Zealand Ltd   Email: Martin.Dickson@peace.com
_/     Martin Dickson                   Fax  : +64-9-373-0401
       Product Specialist               Phone: +64-9-373-0400


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At 11:49 27/11/01 +1300, you wrote:
>Just refer to them as one and the same.  They have all the same stats and
>abilities but are referred to by 2 different names.
>Let the philosophers argue over whether they are the same or different.
>But as far as abilities and GTNs go they are one and the same.

And therefore get one entry in the Bestiary, probably under the heading 
"Imp", with a sentence like "sometimes referred to as "half-devil" on the 
end. This makes sense.

Further to the research - the old College of Black Magics refers to a 
"familiar, a minor devil with half the statistics and rank of a devil". The 
term "half-devil" was derived from this, probably by Brent Jackson, since 
his name is at the top of the write-up of half-devils. There was no further 
description of half-devils in the 2nd Ed. rule book, and it doesn't look as 
if the word half-devil was used there.

I'd be curious to know when the choice of companion for Summoners changed 
from "imp or devil" to "imp or half-devil", however.

Incidentally, I think it's important that there is a certain level in 
consistency in monster descriptions from GM to GM, so that players can play 
out their characters' experience of these things. It's not good, to give an 
extreme example, if a named monster is especially vulnerable to fire under 
one GM, and then invulnerable to that element under the next.

Is this not why we are developing a bestiary?

Jacqui


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> 
> Or make them equivalent to Godzilla, yes.. fine.  :)

I once inflicted an oyster half devil on a  witch as their familiar.


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